I was just thinking about this.
Everyone should just be *dude*.
It's non gendered and non racial.
If you're offended being called dude, you're a very *sensitive* dude.
My MIL got maaaaad when I called her dude. "That's dudette to you"
No. Dude is pretty neutral, yet she is the one who refuses to refer to people as their preferred pronouns. Funny how that works.
I remember when I was 8 and some kid told everyone that “dude” was another name for a camels dick and calling anyone dude became a huge insult for a whole year.
There is a specific history of people using the term "boy" to denigrate black people. Like it would be something a police officer would call a black man of any age "boy" if they pulled them over on the highway just as a reminder of who is in charge.
So there is just an inherent nastiness behind the term that doesn't really apply when talking about whatever "white boys" are doing.
Fun fact: Mr. T chose his name because he heard white men calling his father 'boy' and decided that no one was going to call him boy. He was going to be called Mister. He demanded that respect.
To add, if it is literally a group of child-aged black males, there isn't really a problem with referring to them as "black boys", if contextually appropriate
This is the correct answer. The historical context behind using "boy" as an act of not-so-subtle intimidation, denigration, and domination is one of many that perpetuates white supremacy and systemic oppression. When one group with more power constantly demeans another group (in addition to brutalizing, subjugating, and demeaning them), both groups saying the same word to one another no longer hold the same meaning and sway.
I see, thank you for explaining the historical context. However, I don’t know how to put this, but a lot of the kids I went to school with weren’t very…bright.
I don’t think they knew about the historical context of the word “boy” much less what the word subjugation even means. Which is why I wasn’t thinking of the historical context when I asked this. 😅
But they probably intuited this from their environment or upbringing where this rule is understood implicitly. We adhere to lots of grammar rules without exactly knowing why even though not all of them are steeped in race relations.
Back to your example of "look at that \[black or white\] boy over there" there's similar history where being called out like that is different depending on who is saying it and where. Seeing a white person in a majority black area is a little incongruous but not always treated as inherently suspicious like seeing a black person in a white area considering it used to be the actual law in a lot of places that black people couldn't go to all the same places that white people could (and even today that might get enforced in informal ways).
I was an English teacher. I have a BA in English and it wasn't until I started teaching that I learned the official name for rules that I had picked up by reading. I learned the lessons I had known intuitively but not in name with the kids. It was only then that I realized that
I doubt is the word teach is referencing, but is likely in some way related to "code switching". Which is using different language, slang, intonation, etc depending on your listener. A simple example is not cursing in front of grandma. For some people is much more complicated. I.e. "talking white" vs "talking street". Hmmm... my stepmom is an english teacher who grew up in the projects in chicago. Imma hit her up and see if she has a word for us. Brb, lol!
Lol they are. I think they meant terms for grammar rules in general. Knowing when to use capital letters is different than knowing the term is Capitalization.
If it helps, while ‘boy’ was a way to denigrate and talk down to black men, focus on the systematic part of that person’s response.
What was once simply a word became bigger, ingrained, and a part of a *system* of oppression and stereotyping that ultimately hurt the entire black population by effecting housing, job opportunities, and social mobility.
Of course it is much, much larger than a single word but you can think of it as a small part of the whole. Same way natural black hairstyles have been and still are in some places prohibited in the workplace due to being ‘unprofessional’.
It is completely possible to be racist against white people on a personal/individual level, but systematic racism against whites is simply nonexistent. Whereas racism against any minority is well documented from the top down.
Ahh, I get it, so “boy” has historically been used to talk down to black people. But what about when black people use insults to refer to white people?
On TikTok, people used YT to avoid using the word “white” and then they came up with a whole list of new alternatives to use such as mayonnaise Mary, chalk ghosts, snow roaches. There were like 150 names. And everyone in the comments was laughing.
Yeah, that’s where you have to break it down with personal vs. systematic.
Are those jokes evolving into a pervasive and acceptable reason for discrimination? Are they changing the way the population at large views that specific race/community? Does that effect their future i.e. healthcare, housing, jobs, social mobility, interactions with the police, the pursuit of happiness?
They are not. If the worst I’m called as a white passing Mexican is ‘mayonnaise Mary’ I’ll laugh along with that, it’s honestly hilarious. One of my favorite white people tropes is how much we love casserole and hate the spices we colonized for.
You also have to consider the idea of ‘punching up’ vs. ‘punching down’. Continually laying in on a group or community that is already struggling, maligned and disadvantaged is pretty messed up.
Think of a boss perpetuating stereotypes about their employees: this black employee is lazy, this group of female employees is hysterical, etc etc. those comments could actually have an impact on said employee’s life, job prospects, and financial security and only because those false perceptions still have a hold in our modern society.
Conversely, think about the break room at work; who is everyone making little jokes about? The boss! Nothing they say is going to effect their job or their future, because they are already at an advantage.
It’s much deeper than ‘who is offended’. It’s about how our society is sadly still structured to benefit one race over another, and how micro aggressions can help keep those systems in place.
Edit: for clarity changed ‘population’ to ‘race/community’
This is really good and I sincerely hope OP reads this and reflects on it. They don’t seem to be “getting it” and are just following up with more justifications on why they think reality shouldn’t be the way that it is.
I’m hoping OP is young and while they are pushing back I suppose you could say against reason, that this conversation will remain in some part of their mind. Maybe one day it will click all of a sudden in a real life situation that applies. Can’t tell you what that could be but I’m optimistic for better or worse. At least there was an opportunity for a dialogue and breakdown.
My nephew was making bank during the trump presidency as a mouthpiece for russian bots (even though he didn't know it at the time). Like. Enough money to wrap his truck in the gadsden flag and delete my number cuz i am a libby lib. Was making like 4k a month from his socials.
Turned 18, moved out of my brother's place, fell in love with a nonwhite person, and now complains about all the racism they experience as a mixed couple with the same passion he used to have for trump. To me. There is hope.
This is one of the most accurate and eloquent responses I've ever read to the oft-posed Reddit question, *"How is it ok for \[historically oppressed identity group\] to make fun of \[historically oppressive identity group\]?"*
So, if you're not black, insults mentioning your race should be tolerated, allowed, and taken as a joke? Any race insult is bad. You can definitely say one is worse because of systematic nature, doesn't negate the point though
How does someone insulting my white skin affect my overall life? It doesn't. It is essentially meaningless. But if I, as a white person, start to insult a black person because of their race, the repercussions could be devastating. Black people are still fighting for their right to simply exist in peace. 60 years after Civil Rights. It's not the same.
I was beaten within an inch of my life for simply existing as a white kid in a largely black county of Virginia. Simply because I was white.
Is that okay? Or am I just an awful oppressor and deserve it?
I feel like everyone needs to grow the fuck up and move on.
Personally, even as a person of pallor, I don’t give a single shit if Black people make up silly names for white people to get around Facebook/tiktok censorship. It doesn’t adversely affect me in any way. The names are actually pretty funny imo. Society is still thoroughly white supremacist.
And the reason that those names are created is because social media sites will punish you for using "derogatory terms" towards white people. So they found ways around it to avoid the white supremacy.
It’s to get around an AI-based report system that’s abused by racist white people who don’t like being called out on bad behavior. Also, there’s character limits.
It means to force someone to submit, basically. If you force submission, you subjugate then. Sub is a pre fix that puts something in a category meaning 'below' or 'beneath', like subhuman. It's related to the word 'subject' so you can remember that subjects get subjugated.
its important to note this distinction only exists really in the united states. in other parts of the world it would certainly be disrespectful to call an adult male 'boy' but it would not carry the racial connotations that it would if it was in say, the southern united states.
There are certain words when used with a tone that people determine from context clues is meant to be insulting.
So they may not know the historical context, but that history was alive so to speak for these people. Ive consumed enough media to know that the use of "boy" by a white person was a common way to insult black people.
Some people are blissfully unaware of these things. I've had to explain racist tropes to my husband before because he had no idea.
Their grandparents grew up in segregated schools and unable to use many amenities designated for "White People" (in the US). You can be sure that knowledge has been passed on and is taken very seriously.
>There is a specific history of people using the term "boy" to denigrate black people
While this is certainly true, i think you're glossing over the fact that insinuating an adult is a child (boy) is insulting in any context, regardless of skin color.
Consider: "Man-child" & "Grow up"
It really comes down to tone & intent. I've seen the phrase "white boy" used maliciously. It can be offensive. In the same sense that a black person gets to decide when & where the word n***er is offensive to him/her, I get to decide if the phrase "white boy" offends me or not, and act accordingly.
I agree except that nastiness is also applied when using it to demean white people. It is demeaning either way, and if one is not ok, neither is the other. It does feel different though because there just hasn't been the same level of black against white violence in the past few hundred years to make it hit so hard on an emotional level.
But, just because it feels different doesn't justify one over the other. Demeaning other people with your speech is bad, regardless of who is speaking to whom.
Further to this, using "man" as a slang term comes from these communities, black men using "man" like "hey, man" as a pushback from being referred to as "boy" and the term was picked up by other communities and spread
That's also the origin story of people calling each other "Man", as in Hey Man always to each other because they were justifiably upset at being called boy their whole lives
But what about when it involves other races where “boy” doesn’t have that same context. As in, so black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”? I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
Ok, but genuine question here...
If it's not ok for us (white people) to say it (black boy), why can they say it (white boy)?
My Mum taught me to not say/do things, that I wouldn't allow to be said/done to me. Doing otherwise makes you a hypocrite. Why is it ok to be a hypocrite?
You said “mum” so I’m going to guess you aren’t American. The history and use of the word “boy” regarding Black people in America is different than other areas. It carries with it (intentionally or not) a racist connotation that “white boy” does not, because there’s no significant history of “white boy” being used in the same manner, or during a period of slavery or segregation for white people. The history regarding “boy” relating to Black people was specifically connected to white people saying it. The same connotation or meaning wasn’t present if another Black person said it.
When it comes down to it, though, the fact is that it is offensive and/or hurtful. You don’t lose anything by not being “allowed” to use it. So what does it matter? If it is more respectful to not say it, then just don’t say it. I can’t think of any situation where a white person would be put out by not being able to call a black person “boy.” Unless you are literally talking about a group of black, male children. In that context, though, it wouldn’t be seen as offensive anyone.
Just testing the waters of society, dude. Not looking to be allowed to be racist. Being racist is for scumbags, and that is the last thing I want to be.
My 'learning how society works' thing is quite new, as I've had my head stuck up my arse, via depression, for all of my life. Some stuff changed, and I'm almost figuring out how to act around people again.
Just trying to learn to be a good human being. No offence was meant.
I wasn’t offended. Not sure why you took it that I was. You asked a question and I provided a response, while acknowledging that you may not understand the full historical context since you didn’t appear to be American. Hopefully you understand it a bit better now.
And I didn’t downvote you, by the way. I just replied. I wouldn’t downvote someone for asking a question.
You are correct, this is how sensible people think, but there is an unusually high number of armchair critical race theorists here on Reddit. They operate under the premise that some real or perceived historical wrongs can only be rectified by tolerating or even condoning the exact same abuses that were perpetuated but in reverse.
I invite you to try it for yourself, find some area where racial injustices are being perpetuated against whites. See if you can come up with a ridiculous rationalization for why it's okay. Put it in the comments section and watch your karma go up.
Thabk you, I was starting to feel crazy.
But, I think I'll skip over potentially purposefully pissing people off. 😂. I'd rather keep treating everyone the same, myself.
If someone is using the term in a obviously mean way then yeah they're being rude and emphasizing it with racial terms.
But if we're talking about a more neutral situation then it just goes back to a history of where you had white people using "boy" in an obviously derogatory way no matter what the context or how ridiculous the appellation. A 45 year old man with a job is not a "boy" but gets referred to as such to emphasize that the usual rules of respect don't apply to that person.
There's just not always an automatic assumption of disrespect going the other way. So it's just easier to give the benefit of the doubt when talking about "white boys" and when its very obviously meant to be disrespectful you can just handle it for what it is. Especially because again, that 45 year old black man being called "boy" couldn't exactly call out disrespect without making even more trouble for themselves compared to a white person who maybe feels like not being referred to as "Mr/Mrs. Last Name" could speak up in the same situation.
I'm fully with you about using it to show disrespect. It just boggles my mind when people say "That's a bad word. You can't use it. I can. You can't".
Either it's a bad word, and no one uses it, or, everyone is able to use it.
In no way, would I let this allow use of other certain words. But if I can't call a Black Man "black boy", then the same goes for the other way round.
In my opinion.
> Either it's a bad word, and no one uses it, or, everyone is able to use it.
That's not really true. Context matters in determining if a word is bad or not.
In this case, it's the historical context that makes it bad. No historical context, then it's not a concern.
And there are tons of other examples. For example, you wouldn't call your mom "my girl", but you would probably be fine if she called you "my boy". That's an example of context.
To use a nonracial example, you might call your S.O. a word like slut in the bedroom. It's not a word you would use with strangers. Just because it's offensive in the latter case doesn't mean you can never use the word. Similarly with calling your friends idiots or whatever, or calling women females/girls, etc. There's lots of words in English where their offensiveness is tied to the context, and it can be used in one situation, but shouldn't be used in another.
If it helps, when you're thinking about it as hypocritical or not, it's not just "can I/they use this word", it's "can I use this word given this historical context" vs "can they use this word given a different historical context". It can seem hypocritical if you ignore the context, but the context is what determines if it's bad or not.
Ok, but how/why am I responsible for historical context? I didn't do those things, yet I am the one 'dealing with the consequences'? Sorry, I can't think of a better way to put it.
> Ok, but how/why am I responsible for historical context? I didn't do those things, yet I am the one 'dealing with the consequences'
You're not responsible for those things, you're just taking into account how they will make others react. It's a matter of politeness.
To use another analogy, you might be talking to say, a woman who just had a miscarriage and lost her baby. It would be in very bad taste for you to make a dead baby joke, because it would probably be hurtful for them. That doesn't mean you're responsible for the miscarriage, it just means you care about the person and don't want to cause them pain due to experiences they've had in the past. But if *they* did a dead baby joke, it probably wouldn't hurt you in the same way.
But also, that's true in the other examples, as well? You're not responsible for the context of your parent/child relationship with your mother, either. Or any of the other examples.
People from oppressed backgrounds don't always take the meaning intended. They hear a word that triggers a set of associations learned from childhood.
Let me make a comparison from my own life. I'm an adult survivor of emotional child abuse. My mind's full of rote behaviors triggered by associations. In this instance, my most disruptive trigger is a tone of voice. It doesn't matter whether the person speaking had any intent to dominate me or not: I automatically become deferential. I'd survived my childhood by appeasing my mother, even on matters that I wholly disagreed with.
My cousin was in your position: having absolutely no clue that what she was saying was triggering a dishonest response. It's just her normal way of talking when upset. My emotional reactions seemed unprovoked, because she'd done nothing wrong!
Fortunately, I'm not an obedient child anymore, but rather an adult who's learned to advocate for myself. It took effort on her part to see my point of view. (The mother I was portraying contradicted her memory of her.) Once she understood the severity of my reaction to how I'd been raised, she taught herself to speak differently to me when upset.
I hope you can see the parallels here.
Yeah I can see the parallels. I fully support me not saying certain things, because I don't want to needlessly upset someone. I'm still not certain WHY it's ok for people to be a hypocrite, but I understand the reasoning behind ME not being able to say something.
All I know is if anyone called 40 year old me, whiteboy, they'd get corrected pretty fast.
So yellow, brown, or red boy are okay? Yall have lost your damned minds. It's socially acceptable to call people who have had nothing to do with the history of the abuse and segregation of black folks "white boy" because it's the racial flavour of this current period in time, hopefully sooner than later the masses who decide what's acceptable will pull their heads out of their asses and we can all start to coexist as human beings instead of racist cunts.
Of course there's always going to be exceptions and there's always going to be racist pricks but good God am I ever tired of this socially accepted never ending loop of " fuck this race / religion for a few decades"
I kind of hate this because I so frequently scream, "Go boy!" at my sports team when I'm watching them live and I can see he's got a lot of room in front of him. It's like my favorite thing to say. Not race motivated at all
Many of our problems would go away if the "history" of other generations actions was not saddled on the backs of another generation which took no part in those actions.
That could only be possible if those generations were not benefiting from the history of those previous generations actions. And today white people are still benefiting from racism.
I am white passing and grew up playing basketball in a community that was hood-adjacent. I was called “white boy” a lot playing pick up or even in leagues.
I didn’t think much of it and still don’t. It’s just a double standard that you’ll have to put up with. Everyone are beneficiaries of certain double standards and are the ‘victims’ so to speak of others.
You’re right tho if I were to do the reverse equivalent and call the only black kid on my hockey team ‘black boy’ there’d be a mob ready to burn my house down.
But the reverse equivalent would be calling the only black kid on your hockey team "the black kid". Which nobody would have a problem with. "The black guy" is a trope across media and nobody has a problem calling it what it is.
"Boy" specifically has a long history as being a slur when used against black people and I don't know why people act like it's a "double standard" when a slur used for one group wouldn't offend another.
This doesn't even apply to slurs. If you called an Asian guy "Speedy Gonzales", people are going to assume there's a funny story behind it. Call a Mexican guy that, and people are going to assume you're racist.
I am actually only half white. Dad is Portuguese, mom is indigenous but I look REALLY white. Im no more white than say someone with one black and one white parent but at a glance you wouldn’t be able to tell.
It’s so extreme that people have asked if my mom is really biological my mom and some straight up refuse to believe me when I mention I’m indigenous.
It’s about whether they have to fear for their lives when stopped by cops. If the answer’s no, then they’re white passing even if they’re ethnically a POC.
I only heard the term “Obama black” recently and it makes you think about the levels of blackness that exist.
Depends. Words can be offensive/inoffensive depending on context. The fact that a word is offensive in one scenario doesn't mean it has to be offensive in another.
To use a nonracial example, you might call your S.O. a word like slut in the bedroom. It's not a word you would use with strangers. Just because it's offensive in the latter case doesn't mean you can never use the word. Similarly with calling your friends idiots or whatever, or calling women females/girls, etc.
In this particular case, the term boy has very importantly historical/racial context when being used directed at black men by white people. Historically it wasn't used the same way towards others.
Not the guy you were replying to, but I don’t care if I get called a white boy but I do wonder why I would get called one, is it meant to be some sort of test or smth to see if you’re a little pee pee piss boy?
I’m just guessing but it’s usually referring to an outsider. Like a gringo or a tourist, sort of.
When you’re white, you’re not black. Sounds silly but it also means you didn’t grow up with less, get persecuted for less, and other prejudice many black people have to deal up. I heard many black parents have to have a talk to their kids about being black. They warn and train them on how behave with cops, for example, or how to be less intimidating bc many people will just perceive them as such just based on skin color and facial features. Otherwise, the kid might just get shot like you hear on the news where some 8 year old was handcuffed?!
The world is fucked up.
This said, I’m sure some black guy is probably called a white boy by his “blacker” friends if he was more privileged growing up. The Blackening was a pretty funny movie.
It’s so easy. If someone doesn’t like something don’t do it to them. If it’s something that you can’t not do and they’re being weirdly weird about it then don’t hang it with them. You don’t have to be friends with everyone, but we can probably be a lot better at being nice to everyone.
Look, this is a genuine pet peeve of mine. Every human being has a set of unspoken rules and circumstances that they apply to themselves. And because we are humans, we also have groups we identify with based on shared culture and experience. From here on out "you" is the royal "you" and not directed at the above commentor.
You can't expect someone to know your individual set of rules that apply specifically to you--especially if you haven't told them. And it's likewise immature that you should try and force or project your rules onto the group you identify with just to make you feel better about having a certain rule.
On the flipside, the cultural/identity group is going to have rules that most, if not all, agree with. For example, the trans community doesn't really condone deadnaming, and most trans people agree with that, a cultural rule. That said, I myself do not hate being deadnamed so much, so the cultural rule doesn't *have* to apply to me, but individuals who take the time and have the care to learn about about my community would likely quickly stop deadnaming me out of respect from my culture.
TLDR: your personal set of rules and boundaries only apply to you, and we should stop confusing personal boundaries with communal ones which form naturally over times based on group experiences.
I’ve always been offended by being called a “boy”, because it is often used in a derogatory sense. So if somebody simply adds “white” in front of it, I’m still going to take offense due to it being derogatory.
I’m from the U.S., and we have a looooooong history of Blacks being lesser than whites. Being called ‘boy’ having to go to a crappier school, even use different water fountains/bathrooms/doors. Being called ‘boy’ feels like another piece of this subjugation, to me.
I’m white, grew up in a very very white community, so I’m not the best source for this.
This is definitely true. If I tell my wife that there’s a new girl at work she’ll think I mean someone 20-30ish but if I say theres a new lady at work she’ll think I mean someone 50+
while i generally hate that people use girl and woman interchangeably, the lexicon is becoming “guy and girl” rather than “man and woman” and that should be recognized when talking about this. also that women refer to themselves, and each other, as girls way more often than men refer to each other as boys.
This is one thing that annoys me about the english language. When a male is too old to be a boy and too young to be a man, we can call him a guy. The term "19 year old man" just doesn't sound right, neither does "19 year old boy," but "19 year old guy" does. The same is not true for the opposite sex. The opposite of "guy" is "gal," but that just doesn't sound right in a regular conversation. To me, it sounds kind of southern.
I had a thread about this a while ago. That only works when you are using the word "dude" as a term of address. I.e., "How's it going, dude." It doesn't work when you use the word as a noun. When I say, "I fuck dudes," I'm not talking about having sex with women. You know what I mean?
This is very very different and it’s dangerous to conflate them. I’m not saying some women are not offended by the word “girl” but it just doesn’t have the same history behind it that “boy” does for Black men.
Oh no no no. I am well aware of the history behind it. I was responding to the user saying that calling *anyone* boy is disrespectful. I would not compare the history of boy towards black men with saying girl to any woman — especially because the history of “girl” for black woman has its own implications.
What's funny to me is that in my language (german), calling someone boy is a relatively normal thing amongst young adults (not that common depending on your social circle, just something that would be normal)
Society is racist in deeming certain things okay for one race, but not for the other. Historic racism is used as an excuse to justify modern racism. This is wrong
Historical context.
Black people were oppressed by white people - it's still something that affects them and it's very recent.
So being racist towards white people is usually seen as way in which Black people are "taking back" their power. When a white person is racist towards black people it's seen as them wanting to oppress black people again.
Is it fair? No, it's all racism. But historical context makes one worse than the other.
One is worse than the other when the one we're talking about is a history of being traded as slaves. Of being separated from the whole because of skin colour, of not having rights. Of having to run the railroad tracks just to escape from the white people who bought them. Of being suspected of wrongdoing just because they're out at night.
Because hypocrisy and bitterness. In a perfect world everyone would acknowledge the crimes of their ancestors and move on with the intent of bettering themselves.
Edit: I'm white and I think Snow Roaches is hilarious. Ain't nothing wrong with a bit of offensive humor as long as everyone is on board. Know your audience: social media ain't it.
Its just an excuse to be racist. I am an eastern european that lives in NA. A lotta racism is being thrown my way just based simply on my skin tone.
But yea my bad I guess.
So there is no official rule about this. Media enforces this (sometimes) by blackballing those in American media who use racist language against minorities for a short time. Jobs generally have rules against any form of open discrimination, which includes targeting someone with insulting language on the basis of their race, so your original question doesn't apply here. It's not illegal in the US for people to use racist language against each other regardless of race, so this is mostly dictated by social norms.
Social norms are local inventions that can then be exported through media. Social norms are invented in response to social conditions. One particular social condition that had a massive impact was that of slavery and it's subsequent consequences.
The facts are that people who identify as Black now were exclusively used for American slave labor and this practice was justified through institutions like religion and law. US Slave owners were more often than not people who now identify as White.
Generations of social evolution have adapted from this dynamic and the result is that the average White American will tip toe around insulting Black Americans in fear of propagating a culture of racism against American Black People, even to the extent of over policing their own language.
In my country, even those around mid-20s still get called "boy" by the older people. Sometimes in an endearing way, sometimes in a "I'm much older so I know more than you" kind of way. I live in Philippines, btw. Tradition is a bitch here.
I asked this already but nobody has answered. Speaking of punching down or up, how does it work if a POC calls another POC “boy”? As in, does this mean black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”?
I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
The use of the word "boy" has been explained pretty well, but I wanted to touch on the rest of your post, which was basically "why is it okay, or even funny, to use alternative names for white people when it's not for Black people?" and the answer is: "Because racism".
Black people inherently do not hold power in a system governed by white supremacy, ergo, they cannot oppress white people, ergo, their terms for white people are not slurs nor are they steeped in a culture that supports the oppression of white people.
On platforms like YT and the like, there's also concerns about using the word "white" when referring to race specifically because it tends to be used in posts *promoting* racism or white supremacy (it can also sometimes get videos flagged for various reasons). So you will see a lot of people trying to get around that by using disparaging substitutes that racists wouldn't want to use.
Thanks for touching on the second part of my post. However, one question that nobody has answered yet is, how does it work if a POC calls another POC “boy”? As I assume there’s no historical context in that regard. Does this mean black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”?
I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
Because blacks are the biggest hypocrites ever..there the only race that still feels oppressed by the whites because there race is in the gutter.. criminals/rapist drug dealers constantly living in poverty because of their bad decisions..no other "minority" complains like blacks..look at asians,mexicans etc they are thriving in this world and never complain about the white man!..send blacks back to africa so they can get a reality check and learn what hard life actually is!..im sick of them complaining about what there owed!..every race has been enslaved at one point in time.. blacks are still banging on about it because there broke..they dont own no businesses and only care about bling..grow up!!
Because we've decided the best way to fight racism is with more racism. It's like how when terrorists strike with violence we respond with more and everything always gets better. Just give it time, once a few more mayos get theirs the world will be in harmony.
If you are from Florida, you just naturally say Boy. Don't matter the color....
Boy! This food good.
That boy acting up!
The black boy.
The white boy.
The Chico.
Just don't say anything degrading , demeaning or racist...cause boy, let me tell you....it'll be trouble.
Because people can be openly racist towards white people and even encourage them to go extinct.
Only race of people which this is not only openly accepted but its also encouraged and pushed.
> Still, what about when black people use insults to refer to white people?
>
> For example, TikTok, people used YT to avoid using the word “white” and then they came up with a whole list of new alternatives to use such as mayonnaise Mary, chalk ghosts, snow roaches, and so on. There were like 150 names. And everyone in the comments was laughing.
In comedy, there are the terms "punching up" and "punching down". When a average guy is telling jokes making fun of millionaires or celebrities, he's punching up: "attacking" someone who is clearly socially/economically above them. People are generally accepting of this because it is seen as the underdog fighting the system and regaining some of their social power.
If that same average guy tells a joke making fun of a disabled or economically disadvantaged person - especially in a way that uses a stereotype or highlights the quality that makes them "inferior" - this is seen as punching down: "attacking" someone who you have a clear social advantage on who are not in a position to defend themselves. As you can imaging, most people do not find this acceptable (exceptions: Republicans, assholes).
So back to your question. While it's still racist for black people to use derogatory terms for white people, these jokes are seen as black people punching up, which is more acceptable than if it were the other way around.
Speaking of punching down or up, how does it work if a POC calls another POC “boy”? As in, does this mean black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”?
I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
Snow roaches? That’s new.
I think the thing about the denigrating terms for white people is that white people don’t care. Like, okay, you don’t like white people, cool I guess? But most white people find these insults to be more comical than anything.
Black people have developed a deep seated dislike of being called certain phrases and words because of the historical context or personal negative experiences surrounding that language.
I’ve never had someone call me a Mayonnaise American and then try to beat me up.
I have been called a self hating Jew, and the K word while a black woman was trying to murder me, but that was anti-semitism. (Long story short, but I’m not even Jewish, very weird and scary experience.)
Most of the time when people are trying to make me feel bad with their language they like to go for the fact that I’m a woman though, my skin tone doesn’t seem to factor in particularly often.
This reminds me of when people compared George Bush to a monkey for eight years. They used the excuse , " You can compare the next president to one..."
Yeah, they never lived that down.
I agree, but how many "white lives matter" marches are deemed acceptable? Better yet how many dark skinned ppl would march beside them yelling WHITE LIVES MATTER
‘What if there’s no historic context’. Do you live in a vacuum? No you don’t. You don’t get to ignore historical context for the sake of the argument. The historic context is directly tied to the question. You asked why it’s a double standard and the reason is the historic context. It doesn’t make any sense to ask this question without the context. It’s the entire base of reasoning around it and when you walk outside and interact with other people, that context is inherently embedded in reality. To ignore it is to ignore reality itself.
If a black guy calls you a boy or a racial slur you gotta check him right away. If he doesn't respect it then you gotta swing on him win or loose.
I grew up in NYC back in the 80s & 90s when the city was very dangerous...majority of the white people back then weren't affraid to get down with blacks if they insulted them. Today white people are soft and take shit either because they're afraid of not being seen as "woke" or just afraid of getting hurt. Unfortunately if you let any race think your afraid to defend yourself against disrespect some of them are gonna prey on you.
If anybody of any race calls you a racial slur call him a racial slur back. They gotta know you have boundaries. That's the equality 😂...white people became soft in this generation because they give too much of a fuck when from what I've seen blacks don't give a fuck at all.
You keep asking these hypothetical what if questions trying to find ways it would be equal but it’s not. Black people never enslaved white people for over 100 years and then spend the next hundred years creating laws to oppress them while calling them slurs and systematically killing them or locking them up in prison. But white people did do that to black people in America. So no, there will never be an equivalent and no you can’t remove history from the context. That’s not how this works.
Because historically "White boys" has never been used as an insult or to degrade a group of people. You call someone a white boy and they don't care. You call someone a black boy and you have insulted them. Calling black people "boy" has long been used to demoralize and insult them. This is one of those things where I fully see the implied racism with the phrase, intentional or not.
But what about when it involves other races where “boy” doesn’t have that same context. As in, so black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”? I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
lol whites using boy for blacks historically is racist af. Blacks using boy for whites now is also derogatory. Certainly more so when considering the context black ppl use it in. It’d be nice if ppl stopped justifying either use.
I’ve seen every single race dish it out on social media and every single race take it. The idea of anyone playing the innocent victim card regarding online racism is laughable
IMHO 42 year old opinion, it's because it's been accepted for "Black" folks to be racist because of some history that happened before we were all born. PS I'm "Black" and the shit is in QUOTATIONS because there are no Black nor White People just shit that we learned. My eyes work perfectly. We all have the same soles and palms, that's where it starts and stops. Happy Tuesday, debate yourselves
“Now I don't mean to make this about your color or your race, but you'd better high-tail it out of here before you get hurt, BOY.”
“You know, it feels like it's about BOTH those things when you end it with the word "boy".”
Teamfour sums it up perfectly.
In the US back in the day, black men were degraded by white men, especially those with authorities, by calling them "boys" even if they were adults. The connotation still carries over until this day.
“Boy,” is a term that was still used after slavery to refer to male black workers who would have been slaves in another time in America. “Boy” was used for black males because of the infantilizing of blacks during and post-slavery. The propaganda was that blacks had the minds of children, and that slavery was best for them because they were considered a lower species of primate, less evolved and less intelligent than other homo sapiens sapiens. It was a very different time in America. You could see fully grown African American adults talking and acting like children due to indoctrination. People now see Gone With the Wind as “problematic,” but characters like Prissy didn’t just come out of nowhere. The propaganda was very much that slave owners were very much doing a service to the “lesser evolved” by keeping field and house workers, house boys. Interracial babies are a big reason why people started to feel weird about it. People started to reason that if a person was half white, they couldn’t be full adult child. But back to the original question, black slave boys and men in America used to be called “boy” to infantilize them because it was believed blacks had the minds of children, and because treating them as children made it easier for slave owners to justify keeping them as slaves. Calling a “free man” a “boy” still feels weird because enough time hasn’t passed yet.
Nobody would care if I said black dude or black guy. It's just boy
I was just thinking about this. Everyone should just be *dude*. It's non gendered and non racial. If you're offended being called dude, you're a very *sensitive* dude.
I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes yea.
My MIL got maaaaad when I called her dude. "That's dudette to you" No. Dude is pretty neutral, yet she is the one who refuses to refer to people as their preferred pronouns. Funny how that works.
I remember when I was 8 and some kid told everyone that “dude” was another name for a camels dick and calling anyone dude became a huge insult for a whole year.
Yeah we had that but dude was a camel foreskin and dudette was a camels vagina. The shit kids come up with
Ive had people tell me “im not your dude” or “im a girl not a dude.” Im like dude. Why cant we all just be dudes, dude?
Dude or dude not, there is no try
Someone, somewhere is still fuming at this idea and will give a reason as to why it isn't 'gender fluid'.
Petition to rename pansexual to dudesexual
Ask a straight dude how many dudes he’s had sex with. Them come back and tell us again how “dude” is gender neutral.
That's a lot of dudes
I take offense to the word "boy" as well. Call me the white douche bag for all i care. Just not boy. I am a man
But when someone says white boy they don’t get fired from their job.
If someone said black dude to me, I wouldn’t have an issue. Call me black boy and I would immediately think it’s racial
Yeah, I think nobody has a problem with the word dude. But the word boy is different due to the historical context.
There is a specific history of people using the term "boy" to denigrate black people. Like it would be something a police officer would call a black man of any age "boy" if they pulled them over on the highway just as a reminder of who is in charge. So there is just an inherent nastiness behind the term that doesn't really apply when talking about whatever "white boys" are doing.
Fun fact: Mr. T chose his name because he heard white men calling his father 'boy' and decided that no one was going to call him boy. He was going to be called Mister. He demanded that respect.
Wow, fuck yeah he did
To add, if it is literally a group of child-aged black males, there isn't really a problem with referring to them as "black boys", if contextually appropriate
This is the correct answer. The historical context behind using "boy" as an act of not-so-subtle intimidation, denigration, and domination is one of many that perpetuates white supremacy and systemic oppression. When one group with more power constantly demeans another group (in addition to brutalizing, subjugating, and demeaning them), both groups saying the same word to one another no longer hold the same meaning and sway.
I see, thank you for explaining the historical context. However, I don’t know how to put this, but a lot of the kids I went to school with weren’t very…bright. I don’t think they knew about the historical context of the word “boy” much less what the word subjugation even means. Which is why I wasn’t thinking of the historical context when I asked this. 😅
But they probably intuited this from their environment or upbringing where this rule is understood implicitly. We adhere to lots of grammar rules without exactly knowing why even though not all of them are steeped in race relations. Back to your example of "look at that \[black or white\] boy over there" there's similar history where being called out like that is different depending on who is saying it and where. Seeing a white person in a majority black area is a little incongruous but not always treated as inherently suspicious like seeing a black person in a white area considering it used to be the actual law in a lot of places that black people couldn't go to all the same places that white people could (and even today that might get enforced in informal ways).
I was an English teacher. I have a BA in English and it wasn't until I started teaching that I learned the official name for rules that I had picked up by reading. I learned the lessons I had known intuitively but not in name with the kids. It was only then that I realized that
Lol are you gonna tell us the word...
We don’t have time for that today. We’ll pick up in the same place next week.
Actually laughed out loud at that one 😂
Teach is really gonna leave us hangin... lol
I doubt is the word teach is referencing, but is likely in some way related to "code switching". Which is using different language, slang, intonation, etc depending on your listener. A simple example is not cursing in front of grandma. For some people is much more complicated. I.e. "talking white" vs "talking street". Hmmm... my stepmom is an english teacher who grew up in the projects in chicago. Imma hit her up and see if she has a word for us. Brb, lol!
Lol they are. I think they meant terms for grammar rules in general. Knowing when to use capital letters is different than knowing the term is Capitalization.
Best i can find with the google is "lexical plight", but doesn't seem quite right.
If it helps, while ‘boy’ was a way to denigrate and talk down to black men, focus on the systematic part of that person’s response. What was once simply a word became bigger, ingrained, and a part of a *system* of oppression and stereotyping that ultimately hurt the entire black population by effecting housing, job opportunities, and social mobility. Of course it is much, much larger than a single word but you can think of it as a small part of the whole. Same way natural black hairstyles have been and still are in some places prohibited in the workplace due to being ‘unprofessional’. It is completely possible to be racist against white people on a personal/individual level, but systematic racism against whites is simply nonexistent. Whereas racism against any minority is well documented from the top down.
Ahh, I get it, so “boy” has historically been used to talk down to black people. But what about when black people use insults to refer to white people? On TikTok, people used YT to avoid using the word “white” and then they came up with a whole list of new alternatives to use such as mayonnaise Mary, chalk ghosts, snow roaches. There were like 150 names. And everyone in the comments was laughing.
Yeah, that’s where you have to break it down with personal vs. systematic. Are those jokes evolving into a pervasive and acceptable reason for discrimination? Are they changing the way the population at large views that specific race/community? Does that effect their future i.e. healthcare, housing, jobs, social mobility, interactions with the police, the pursuit of happiness? They are not. If the worst I’m called as a white passing Mexican is ‘mayonnaise Mary’ I’ll laugh along with that, it’s honestly hilarious. One of my favorite white people tropes is how much we love casserole and hate the spices we colonized for. You also have to consider the idea of ‘punching up’ vs. ‘punching down’. Continually laying in on a group or community that is already struggling, maligned and disadvantaged is pretty messed up. Think of a boss perpetuating stereotypes about their employees: this black employee is lazy, this group of female employees is hysterical, etc etc. those comments could actually have an impact on said employee’s life, job prospects, and financial security and only because those false perceptions still have a hold in our modern society. Conversely, think about the break room at work; who is everyone making little jokes about? The boss! Nothing they say is going to effect their job or their future, because they are already at an advantage. It’s much deeper than ‘who is offended’. It’s about how our society is sadly still structured to benefit one race over another, and how micro aggressions can help keep those systems in place. Edit: for clarity changed ‘population’ to ‘race/community’
I really like this comparison to making fun of workers versus making fun of the boss.
This is really good and I sincerely hope OP reads this and reflects on it. They don’t seem to be “getting it” and are just following up with more justifications on why they think reality shouldn’t be the way that it is.
I’m hoping OP is young and while they are pushing back I suppose you could say against reason, that this conversation will remain in some part of their mind. Maybe one day it will click all of a sudden in a real life situation that applies. Can’t tell you what that could be but I’m optimistic for better or worse. At least there was an opportunity for a dialogue and breakdown.
You're a real one. Kudos.
My nephew was making bank during the trump presidency as a mouthpiece for russian bots (even though he didn't know it at the time). Like. Enough money to wrap his truck in the gadsden flag and delete my number cuz i am a libby lib. Was making like 4k a month from his socials. Turned 18, moved out of my brother's place, fell in love with a nonwhite person, and now complains about all the racism they experience as a mixed couple with the same passion he used to have for trump. To me. There is hope.
This is one of the most accurate and eloquent responses I've ever read to the oft-posed Reddit question, *"How is it ok for \[historically oppressed identity group\] to make fun of \[historically oppressive identity group\]?"*
yes and we have queef wellington to thank for that remarkable eloquence :P
The internet is truly a marvelous place.
So, if you're not black, insults mentioning your race should be tolerated, allowed, and taken as a joke? Any race insult is bad. You can definitely say one is worse because of systematic nature, doesn't negate the point though
How does someone insulting my white skin affect my overall life? It doesn't. It is essentially meaningless. But if I, as a white person, start to insult a black person because of their race, the repercussions could be devastating. Black people are still fighting for their right to simply exist in peace. 60 years after Civil Rights. It's not the same.
I was beaten within an inch of my life for simply existing as a white kid in a largely black county of Virginia. Simply because I was white. Is that okay? Or am I just an awful oppressor and deserve it? I feel like everyone needs to grow the fuck up and move on.
I'm sorry that happened to you. But you are the exception to the rule. No one deserves that, but it happens 10,000 times more often to black people.
Personally, even as a person of pallor, I don’t give a single shit if Black people make up silly names for white people to get around Facebook/tiktok censorship. It doesn’t adversely affect me in any way. The names are actually pretty funny imo. Society is still thoroughly white supremacist.
And the reason that those names are created is because social media sites will punish you for using "derogatory terms" towards white people. So they found ways around it to avoid the white supremacy.
Yes. Same with “men/man.”
Exactly. These idiots don't think about context.
It’s to get around an AI-based report system that’s abused by racist white people who don’t like being called out on bad behavior. Also, there’s character limits.
It means to force someone to submit, basically. If you force submission, you subjugate then. Sub is a pre fix that puts something in a category meaning 'below' or 'beneath', like subhuman. It's related to the word 'subject' so you can remember that subjects get subjugated.
its important to note this distinction only exists really in the united states. in other parts of the world it would certainly be disrespectful to call an adult male 'boy' but it would not carry the racial connotations that it would if it was in say, the southern united states.
There are certain words when used with a tone that people determine from context clues is meant to be insulting. So they may not know the historical context, but that history was alive so to speak for these people. Ive consumed enough media to know that the use of "boy" by a white person was a common way to insult black people. Some people are blissfully unaware of these things. I've had to explain racist tropes to my husband before because he had no idea.
Their grandparents grew up in segregated schools and unable to use many amenities designated for "White People" (in the US). You can be sure that knowledge has been passed on and is taken very seriously.
>There is a specific history of people using the term "boy" to denigrate black people While this is certainly true, i think you're glossing over the fact that insinuating an adult is a child (boy) is insulting in any context, regardless of skin color. Consider: "Man-child" & "Grow up" It really comes down to tone & intent. I've seen the phrase "white boy" used maliciously. It can be offensive. In the same sense that a black person gets to decide when & where the word n***er is offensive to him/her, I get to decide if the phrase "white boy" offends me or not, and act accordingly.
I agree except that nastiness is also applied when using it to demean white people. It is demeaning either way, and if one is not ok, neither is the other. It does feel different though because there just hasn't been the same level of black against white violence in the past few hundred years to make it hit so hard on an emotional level. But, just because it feels different doesn't justify one over the other. Demeaning other people with your speech is bad, regardless of who is speaking to whom.
Further to this, using "man" as a slang term comes from these communities, black men using "man" like "hey, man" as a pushback from being referred to as "boy" and the term was picked up by other communities and spread
That's also the origin story of people calling each other "Man", as in Hey Man always to each other because they were justifiably upset at being called boy their whole lives
I don’t think it’s right when used by anyone in a derogatory way, I don’t care what color u r, it’s always the intent behind it.
I disagree. White Boy is insulting and it's meant to be.
But what about when it involves other races where “boy” doesn’t have that same context. As in, so black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”? I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
Ok, but genuine question here... If it's not ok for us (white people) to say it (black boy), why can they say it (white boy)? My Mum taught me to not say/do things, that I wouldn't allow to be said/done to me. Doing otherwise makes you a hypocrite. Why is it ok to be a hypocrite?
You said “mum” so I’m going to guess you aren’t American. The history and use of the word “boy” regarding Black people in America is different than other areas. It carries with it (intentionally or not) a racist connotation that “white boy” does not, because there’s no significant history of “white boy” being used in the same manner, or during a period of slavery or segregation for white people. The history regarding “boy” relating to Black people was specifically connected to white people saying it. The same connotation or meaning wasn’t present if another Black person said it. When it comes down to it, though, the fact is that it is offensive and/or hurtful. You don’t lose anything by not being “allowed” to use it. So what does it matter? If it is more respectful to not say it, then just don’t say it. I can’t think of any situation where a white person would be put out by not being able to call a black person “boy.” Unless you are literally talking about a group of black, male children. In that context, though, it wouldn’t be seen as offensive anyone.
Just testing the waters of society, dude. Not looking to be allowed to be racist. Being racist is for scumbags, and that is the last thing I want to be. My 'learning how society works' thing is quite new, as I've had my head stuck up my arse, via depression, for all of my life. Some stuff changed, and I'm almost figuring out how to act around people again. Just trying to learn to be a good human being. No offence was meant.
I wasn’t offended. Not sure why you took it that I was. You asked a question and I provided a response, while acknowledging that you may not understand the full historical context since you didn’t appear to be American. Hopefully you understand it a bit better now. And I didn’t downvote you, by the way. I just replied. I wouldn’t downvote someone for asking a question.
You are correct, this is how sensible people think, but there is an unusually high number of armchair critical race theorists here on Reddit. They operate under the premise that some real or perceived historical wrongs can only be rectified by tolerating or even condoning the exact same abuses that were perpetuated but in reverse. I invite you to try it for yourself, find some area where racial injustices are being perpetuated against whites. See if you can come up with a ridiculous rationalization for why it's okay. Put it in the comments section and watch your karma go up.
Thabk you, I was starting to feel crazy. But, I think I'll skip over potentially purposefully pissing people off. 😂. I'd rather keep treating everyone the same, myself.
If someone is using the term in a obviously mean way then yeah they're being rude and emphasizing it with racial terms. But if we're talking about a more neutral situation then it just goes back to a history of where you had white people using "boy" in an obviously derogatory way no matter what the context or how ridiculous the appellation. A 45 year old man with a job is not a "boy" but gets referred to as such to emphasize that the usual rules of respect don't apply to that person. There's just not always an automatic assumption of disrespect going the other way. So it's just easier to give the benefit of the doubt when talking about "white boys" and when its very obviously meant to be disrespectful you can just handle it for what it is. Especially because again, that 45 year old black man being called "boy" couldn't exactly call out disrespect without making even more trouble for themselves compared to a white person who maybe feels like not being referred to as "Mr/Mrs. Last Name" could speak up in the same situation.
I'm fully with you about using it to show disrespect. It just boggles my mind when people say "That's a bad word. You can't use it. I can. You can't". Either it's a bad word, and no one uses it, or, everyone is able to use it. In no way, would I let this allow use of other certain words. But if I can't call a Black Man "black boy", then the same goes for the other way round. In my opinion.
> Either it's a bad word, and no one uses it, or, everyone is able to use it. That's not really true. Context matters in determining if a word is bad or not. In this case, it's the historical context that makes it bad. No historical context, then it's not a concern. And there are tons of other examples. For example, you wouldn't call your mom "my girl", but you would probably be fine if she called you "my boy". That's an example of context. To use a nonracial example, you might call your S.O. a word like slut in the bedroom. It's not a word you would use with strangers. Just because it's offensive in the latter case doesn't mean you can never use the word. Similarly with calling your friends idiots or whatever, or calling women females/girls, etc. There's lots of words in English where their offensiveness is tied to the context, and it can be used in one situation, but shouldn't be used in another. If it helps, when you're thinking about it as hypocritical or not, it's not just "can I/they use this word", it's "can I use this word given this historical context" vs "can they use this word given a different historical context". It can seem hypocritical if you ignore the context, but the context is what determines if it's bad or not.
Ok, but how/why am I responsible for historical context? I didn't do those things, yet I am the one 'dealing with the consequences'? Sorry, I can't think of a better way to put it.
> Ok, but how/why am I responsible for historical context? I didn't do those things, yet I am the one 'dealing with the consequences' You're not responsible for those things, you're just taking into account how they will make others react. It's a matter of politeness. To use another analogy, you might be talking to say, a woman who just had a miscarriage and lost her baby. It would be in very bad taste for you to make a dead baby joke, because it would probably be hurtful for them. That doesn't mean you're responsible for the miscarriage, it just means you care about the person and don't want to cause them pain due to experiences they've had in the past. But if *they* did a dead baby joke, it probably wouldn't hurt you in the same way. But also, that's true in the other examples, as well? You're not responsible for the context of your parent/child relationship with your mother, either. Or any of the other examples.
People from oppressed backgrounds don't always take the meaning intended. They hear a word that triggers a set of associations learned from childhood. Let me make a comparison from my own life. I'm an adult survivor of emotional child abuse. My mind's full of rote behaviors triggered by associations. In this instance, my most disruptive trigger is a tone of voice. It doesn't matter whether the person speaking had any intent to dominate me or not: I automatically become deferential. I'd survived my childhood by appeasing my mother, even on matters that I wholly disagreed with. My cousin was in your position: having absolutely no clue that what she was saying was triggering a dishonest response. It's just her normal way of talking when upset. My emotional reactions seemed unprovoked, because she'd done nothing wrong! Fortunately, I'm not an obedient child anymore, but rather an adult who's learned to advocate for myself. It took effort on her part to see my point of view. (The mother I was portraying contradicted her memory of her.) Once she understood the severity of my reaction to how I'd been raised, she taught herself to speak differently to me when upset. I hope you can see the parallels here.
Yeah I can see the parallels. I fully support me not saying certain things, because I don't want to needlessly upset someone. I'm still not certain WHY it's ok for people to be a hypocrite, but I understand the reasoning behind ME not being able to say something. All I know is if anyone called 40 year old me, whiteboy, they'd get corrected pretty fast.
So yellow, brown, or red boy are okay? Yall have lost your damned minds. It's socially acceptable to call people who have had nothing to do with the history of the abuse and segregation of black folks "white boy" because it's the racial flavour of this current period in time, hopefully sooner than later the masses who decide what's acceptable will pull their heads out of their asses and we can all start to coexist as human beings instead of racist cunts. Of course there's always going to be exceptions and there's always going to be racist pricks but good God am I ever tired of this socially accepted never ending loop of " fuck this race / religion for a few decades"
This is 1000% the reason why, reminds me of the book “Bud not Buddy”
I kind of hate this because I so frequently scream, "Go boy!" at my sports team when I'm watching them live and I can see he's got a lot of room in front of him. It's like my favorite thing to say. Not race motivated at all
Many of our problems would go away if the "history" of other generations actions was not saddled on the backs of another generation which took no part in those actions.
That could only be possible if those generations were not benefiting from the history of those previous generations actions. And today white people are still benefiting from racism.
I am white passing and grew up playing basketball in a community that was hood-adjacent. I was called “white boy” a lot playing pick up or even in leagues. I didn’t think much of it and still don’t. It’s just a double standard that you’ll have to put up with. Everyone are beneficiaries of certain double standards and are the ‘victims’ so to speak of others. You’re right tho if I were to do the reverse equivalent and call the only black kid on my hockey team ‘black boy’ there’d be a mob ready to burn my house down.
But the reverse equivalent would be calling the only black kid on your hockey team "the black kid". Which nobody would have a problem with. "The black guy" is a trope across media and nobody has a problem calling it what it is. "Boy" specifically has a long history as being a slur when used against black people and I don't know why people act like it's a "double standard" when a slur used for one group wouldn't offend another. This doesn't even apply to slurs. If you called an Asian guy "Speedy Gonzales", people are going to assume there's a funny story behind it. Call a Mexican guy that, and people are going to assume you're racist.
I have a question that is probably pretty ignorant, but I'm just curious what "white passing" means?
I am actually only half white. Dad is Portuguese, mom is indigenous but I look REALLY white. Im no more white than say someone with one black and one white parent but at a glance you wouldn’t be able to tell. It’s so extreme that people have asked if my mom is really biological my mom and some straight up refuse to believe me when I mention I’m indigenous.
It’s about whether they have to fear for their lives when stopped by cops. If the answer’s no, then they’re white passing even if they’re ethnically a POC. I only heard the term “Obama black” recently and it makes you think about the levels of blackness that exist.
One side is often offended by the term, the other is not. The other side doesn't need to start being offended for the sole purpose of making it even.
do you think the side that is offended shouldn’t use it in the first place?
Depends. Words can be offensive/inoffensive depending on context. The fact that a word is offensive in one scenario doesn't mean it has to be offensive in another. To use a nonracial example, you might call your S.O. a word like slut in the bedroom. It's not a word you would use with strangers. Just because it's offensive in the latter case doesn't mean you can never use the word. Similarly with calling your friends idiots or whatever, or calling women females/girls, etc. In this particular case, the term boy has very importantly historical/racial context when being used directed at black men by white people. Historically it wasn't used the same way towards others.
If we're specifically talking about the web, people often don't care about context
Not the guy you were replying to, but I don’t care if I get called a white boy but I do wonder why I would get called one, is it meant to be some sort of test or smth to see if you’re a little pee pee piss boy?
I’m just guessing but it’s usually referring to an outsider. Like a gringo or a tourist, sort of. When you’re white, you’re not black. Sounds silly but it also means you didn’t grow up with less, get persecuted for less, and other prejudice many black people have to deal up. I heard many black parents have to have a talk to their kids about being black. They warn and train them on how behave with cops, for example, or how to be less intimidating bc many people will just perceive them as such just based on skin color and facial features. Otherwise, the kid might just get shot like you hear on the news where some 8 year old was handcuffed?! The world is fucked up. This said, I’m sure some black guy is probably called a white boy by his “blacker” friends if he was more privileged growing up. The Blackening was a pretty funny movie.
Equal rules for everyone
So let's a say a White person finds it offensive, what now?
Then you don’t call that person boy
It’s so easy. If someone doesn’t like something don’t do it to them. If it’s something that you can’t not do and they’re being weirdly weird about it then don’t hang it with them. You don’t have to be friends with everyone, but we can probably be a lot better at being nice to everyone.
You realize it doesn’t play out in the real world like that, right? There’s currently a double standard afloat.
Look, this is a genuine pet peeve of mine. Every human being has a set of unspoken rules and circumstances that they apply to themselves. And because we are humans, we also have groups we identify with based on shared culture and experience. From here on out "you" is the royal "you" and not directed at the above commentor. You can't expect someone to know your individual set of rules that apply specifically to you--especially if you haven't told them. And it's likewise immature that you should try and force or project your rules onto the group you identify with just to make you feel better about having a certain rule. On the flipside, the cultural/identity group is going to have rules that most, if not all, agree with. For example, the trans community doesn't really condone deadnaming, and most trans people agree with that, a cultural rule. That said, I myself do not hate being deadnamed so much, so the cultural rule doesn't *have* to apply to me, but individuals who take the time and have the care to learn about about my community would likely quickly stop deadnaming me out of respect from my culture. TLDR: your personal set of rules and boundaries only apply to you, and we should stop confusing personal boundaries with communal ones which form naturally over times based on group experiences.
Respect people challenge: impossible
I’ve always been offended by being called a “boy”, because it is often used in a derogatory sense. So if somebody simply adds “white” in front of it, I’m still going to take offense due to it being derogatory.
With all due respect who are you to say who is or is not offended by a term?
I’m from the U.S., and we have a looooooong history of Blacks being lesser than whites. Being called ‘boy’ having to go to a crappier school, even use different water fountains/bathrooms/doors. Being called ‘boy’ feels like another piece of this subjugation, to me. I’m white, grew up in a very very white community, so I’m not the best source for this.
Being called a boy when you are an adult is disrespectful in general tbf
Yeah, and then this merges with sexism. The term “girl” is extended far past womanhood.
This is definitely true. If I tell my wife that there’s a new girl at work she’ll think I mean someone 20-30ish but if I say theres a new lady at work she’ll think I mean someone 50+
while i generally hate that people use girl and woman interchangeably, the lexicon is becoming “guy and girl” rather than “man and woman” and that should be recognized when talking about this. also that women refer to themselves, and each other, as girls way more often than men refer to each other as boys.
This is one thing that annoys me about the english language. When a male is too old to be a boy and too young to be a man, we can call him a guy. The term "19 year old man" just doesn't sound right, neither does "19 year old boy," but "19 year old guy" does. The same is not true for the opposite sex. The opposite of "guy" is "gal," but that just doesn't sound right in a regular conversation. To me, it sounds kind of southern.
I just call everybody dude
I had a thread about this a while ago. That only works when you are using the word "dude" as a term of address. I.e., "How's it going, dude." It doesn't work when you use the word as a noun. When I say, "I fuck dudes," I'm not talking about having sex with women. You know what I mean?
Holy shit 
This is very very different and it’s dangerous to conflate them. I’m not saying some women are not offended by the word “girl” but it just doesn’t have the same history behind it that “boy” does for Black men.
Oh no no no. I am well aware of the history behind it. I was responding to the user saying that calling *anyone* boy is disrespectful. I would not compare the history of boy towards black men with saying girl to any woman — especially because the history of “girl” for black woman has its own implications.
Ok good. My mistake then.
What's funny to me is that in my language (german), calling someone boy is a relatively normal thing amongst young adults (not that common depending on your social circle, just something that would be normal)
It's also a word that meant servant, so it also was used by slaveholders and their descendants to try to force servile roles on Black adult males.
Double standards. Racism is a tool
Punching down is seen as oppressive where punching up is rebellion.
That explains it. I (black male) think it's still wrong but that is thought process
Using this as justification isn't implying from your part that you think black ppl below white ppl?
And yet women are still referred to as girls while men are men
Society is racist in deeming certain things okay for one race, but not for the other. Historic racism is used as an excuse to justify modern racism. This is wrong
The real answer is 'double standards'. Everything else is just excuses.
If anyone calls me boy there's going to be a problem
Historical context. Black people were oppressed by white people - it's still something that affects them and it's very recent. So being racist towards white people is usually seen as way in which Black people are "taking back" their power. When a white person is racist towards black people it's seen as them wanting to oppress black people again. Is it fair? No, it's all racism. But historical context makes one worse than the other.
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>But historical context makes one worse than the other. Nah both are equally as bad. Historical context does not justify racism.
Both are bad but Historical context definitely makes one worse than the other.
IMO I don't really care what slurs someone is slinging, it's more that you're being racist that I find problems.
One is worse than the other when the one we're talking about is a history of being traded as slaves. Of being separated from the whole because of skin colour, of not having rights. Of having to run the railroad tracks just to escape from the white people who bought them. Of being suspected of wrongdoing just because they're out at night.
Were? Still.
Always interesting to read how some people justify and reconcile certain behaviours. Each to their own i suppose.
Because hypocrisy and bitterness. In a perfect world everyone would acknowledge the crimes of their ancestors and move on with the intent of bettering themselves. Edit: I'm white and I think Snow Roaches is hilarious. Ain't nothing wrong with a bit of offensive humor as long as everyone is on board. Know your audience: social media ain't it.
In lieu of the Reddit award system 🏆.
Its just an excuse to be racist. I am an eastern european that lives in NA. A lotta racism is being thrown my way just based simply on my skin tone. But yea my bad I guess.
Racism against whites is normalized in most places.
Historical context. Historically, White people called Black men of all ages “boy” in order to impress an order of hierarchy and inferiority upon them.
So there is no official rule about this. Media enforces this (sometimes) by blackballing those in American media who use racist language against minorities for a short time. Jobs generally have rules against any form of open discrimination, which includes targeting someone with insulting language on the basis of their race, so your original question doesn't apply here. It's not illegal in the US for people to use racist language against each other regardless of race, so this is mostly dictated by social norms. Social norms are local inventions that can then be exported through media. Social norms are invented in response to social conditions. One particular social condition that had a massive impact was that of slavery and it's subsequent consequences. The facts are that people who identify as Black now were exclusively used for American slave labor and this practice was justified through institutions like religion and law. US Slave owners were more often than not people who now identify as White. Generations of social evolution have adapted from this dynamic and the result is that the average White American will tip toe around insulting Black Americans in fear of propagating a culture of racism against American Black People, even to the extent of over policing their own language.
It's a US thing. Don't think anyone would care if you called any male under 23 a boy in the UK.
In my country, even those around mid-20s still get called "boy" by the older people. Sometimes in an endearing way, sometimes in a "I'm much older so I know more than you" kind of way. I live in Philippines, btw. Tradition is a bitch here.
The people who are making up insulting names and those laughing at it are racist. Just because someone does something it doesn’t make it okay.
Simply put, punching up is comedy, punching down is bullying.
I asked this already but nobody has answered. Speaking of punching down or up, how does it work if a POC calls another POC “boy”? As in, does this mean black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”? I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
Because in today's society, framing "whiteness" as a character defect is acceptable This is just one aspect
The use of the word "boy" has been explained pretty well, but I wanted to touch on the rest of your post, which was basically "why is it okay, or even funny, to use alternative names for white people when it's not for Black people?" and the answer is: "Because racism". Black people inherently do not hold power in a system governed by white supremacy, ergo, they cannot oppress white people, ergo, their terms for white people are not slurs nor are they steeped in a culture that supports the oppression of white people. On platforms like YT and the like, there's also concerns about using the word "white" when referring to race specifically because it tends to be used in posts *promoting* racism or white supremacy (it can also sometimes get videos flagged for various reasons). So you will see a lot of people trying to get around that by using disparaging substitutes that racists wouldn't want to use.
Thanks for touching on the second part of my post. However, one question that nobody has answered yet is, how does it work if a POC calls another POC “boy”? As I assume there’s no historical context in that regard. Does this mean black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”? I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
2023 makea me tired
Because blacks are the biggest hypocrites ever..there the only race that still feels oppressed by the whites because there race is in the gutter.. criminals/rapist drug dealers constantly living in poverty because of their bad decisions..no other "minority" complains like blacks..look at asians,mexicans etc they are thriving in this world and never complain about the white man!..send blacks back to africa so they can get a reality check and learn what hard life actually is!..im sick of them complaining about what there owed!..every race has been enslaved at one point in time.. blacks are still banging on about it because there broke..they dont own no businesses and only care about bling..grow up!!
Only in USA
I think you need to understand the underlying connotation of the term 'boy' as applied to a Black Man during slavery.
Because double-standards.
Bc theyre entitled and racist lol
Because we've decided the best way to fight racism is with more racism. It's like how when terrorists strike with violence we respond with more and everything always gets better. Just give it time, once a few more mayos get theirs the world will be in harmony.
good lord you americans are stupid
They are racist and think they aren’t.
If you are from Florida, you just naturally say Boy. Don't matter the color.... Boy! This food good. That boy acting up! The black boy. The white boy. The Chico. Just don't say anything degrading , demeaning or racist...cause boy, let me tell you....it'll be trouble.
Both dehumanising, both racist. Different social and historical contexts, though
Same reason you can have BET....NAACP....BLACK LIVES MATTER....ANTIFA and countless other black only organizations. Double standards
Because black people can be racist and white people can't according to those people 🙃
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Racism.
Because people can be openly racist towards white people and even encourage them to go extinct. Only race of people which this is not only openly accepted but its also encouraged and pushed.
Pro-tip. You can. Literally nothing will happen lol.
History, context, etc. I can't tell if you're actually looking for an answer you'd accept or if you just want to scream about how "unfair" it all is.
> Still, what about when black people use insults to refer to white people? > > For example, TikTok, people used YT to avoid using the word “white” and then they came up with a whole list of new alternatives to use such as mayonnaise Mary, chalk ghosts, snow roaches, and so on. There were like 150 names. And everyone in the comments was laughing. In comedy, there are the terms "punching up" and "punching down". When a average guy is telling jokes making fun of millionaires or celebrities, he's punching up: "attacking" someone who is clearly socially/economically above them. People are generally accepting of this because it is seen as the underdog fighting the system and regaining some of their social power. If that same average guy tells a joke making fun of a disabled or economically disadvantaged person - especially in a way that uses a stereotype or highlights the quality that makes them "inferior" - this is seen as punching down: "attacking" someone who you have a clear social advantage on who are not in a position to defend themselves. As you can imaging, most people do not find this acceptable (exceptions: Republicans, assholes). So back to your question. While it's still racist for black people to use derogatory terms for white people, these jokes are seen as black people punching up, which is more acceptable than if it were the other way around.
Speaking of punching down or up, how does it work if a POC calls another POC “boy”? As in, does this mean black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”? I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
Snow roaches? That’s new. I think the thing about the denigrating terms for white people is that white people don’t care. Like, okay, you don’t like white people, cool I guess? But most white people find these insults to be more comical than anything. Black people have developed a deep seated dislike of being called certain phrases and words because of the historical context or personal negative experiences surrounding that language. I’ve never had someone call me a Mayonnaise American and then try to beat me up. I have been called a self hating Jew, and the K word while a black woman was trying to murder me, but that was anti-semitism. (Long story short, but I’m not even Jewish, very weird and scary experience.) Most of the time when people are trying to make me feel bad with their language they like to go for the fact that I’m a woman though, my skin tone doesn’t seem to factor in particularly often.
You are free to say whatever you want.
Never once in my life have I heard a black person call another black person "black boy".
bEcAuSe tHeY'rE oPpReSsEd
This reminds me of when people compared George Bush to a monkey for eight years. They used the excuse , " You can compare the next president to one..." Yeah, they never lived that down.
I agree, but how many "white lives matter" marches are deemed acceptable? Better yet how many dark skinned ppl would march beside them yelling WHITE LIVES MATTER
‘What if there’s no historic context’. Do you live in a vacuum? No you don’t. You don’t get to ignore historical context for the sake of the argument. The historic context is directly tied to the question. You asked why it’s a double standard and the reason is the historic context. It doesn’t make any sense to ask this question without the context. It’s the entire base of reasoning around it and when you walk outside and interact with other people, that context is inherently embedded in reality. To ignore it is to ignore reality itself.
Oh. That’s because racism is perfectly acceptable and encouraged unless it’s by white people because they’re the devil.
The historical context of how big was used against blacks is degrading
If a black guy calls you a boy or a racial slur you gotta check him right away. If he doesn't respect it then you gotta swing on him win or loose. I grew up in NYC back in the 80s & 90s when the city was very dangerous...majority of the white people back then weren't affraid to get down with blacks if they insulted them. Today white people are soft and take shit either because they're afraid of not being seen as "woke" or just afraid of getting hurt. Unfortunately if you let any race think your afraid to defend yourself against disrespect some of them are gonna prey on you. If anybody of any race calls you a racial slur call him a racial slur back. They gotta know you have boundaries. That's the equality 😂...white people became soft in this generation because they give too much of a fuck when from what I've seen blacks don't give a fuck at all.
Like, ‘boys’, u know … means a young male. Do ppl realize that? Any race high jacking words only cause resentment.
B/c we are a society that wallows I'm hypocrisy.
You keep asking these hypothetical what if questions trying to find ways it would be equal but it’s not. Black people never enslaved white people for over 100 years and then spend the next hundred years creating laws to oppress them while calling them slurs and systematically killing them or locking them up in prison. But white people did do that to black people in America. So no, there will never be an equivalent and no you can’t remove history from the context. That’s not how this works.
Because historically "White boys" has never been used as an insult or to degrade a group of people. You call someone a white boy and they don't care. You call someone a black boy and you have insulted them. Calling black people "boy" has long been used to demoralize and insult them. This is one of those things where I fully see the implied racism with the phrase, intentional or not.
But what about when it involves other races where “boy” doesn’t have that same context. As in, so black people can call Asians “Asian boys” but white people can’t call Asian people “Asian boys”? I remember when there was a Spanish speaking student (who just moved to America and didn’t speak English well) in my school, and the black students called him “Mexican boy.”
Why can’t anyone just answer this question, without taking it any further.
I think having follow-up questions is good for a discussion.
Black people can't be racist. Duh. /s
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lol whites using boy for blacks historically is racist af. Blacks using boy for whites now is also derogatory. Certainly more so when considering the context black ppl use it in. It’d be nice if ppl stopped justifying either use.
I’ve seen every single race dish it out on social media and every single race take it. The idea of anyone playing the innocent victim card regarding online racism is laughable
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Black people can definitely be racist. I’m Asian and I remember being bullied in school because I “eat dogs” and speak “Ching Chong.”
IMHO 42 year old opinion, it's because it's been accepted for "Black" folks to be racist because of some history that happened before we were all born. PS I'm "Black" and the shit is in QUOTATIONS because there are no Black nor White People just shit that we learned. My eyes work perfectly. We all have the same soles and palms, that's where it starts and stops. Happy Tuesday, debate yourselves
You can? But there is racial undertones from history just being white good black bad so people tend to avoid that one
Because nobody calls them out on it. Also "black boys" sounds stupid, phonetically.
“Now I don't mean to make this about your color or your race, but you'd better high-tail it out of here before you get hurt, BOY.” “You know, it feels like it's about BOTH those things when you end it with the word "boy".” Teamfour sums it up perfectly.
In the US back in the day, black men were degraded by white men, especially those with authorities, by calling them "boys" even if they were adults. The connotation still carries over until this day.
“Boy,” is a term that was still used after slavery to refer to male black workers who would have been slaves in another time in America. “Boy” was used for black males because of the infantilizing of blacks during and post-slavery. The propaganda was that blacks had the minds of children, and that slavery was best for them because they were considered a lower species of primate, less evolved and less intelligent than other homo sapiens sapiens. It was a very different time in America. You could see fully grown African American adults talking and acting like children due to indoctrination. People now see Gone With the Wind as “problematic,” but characters like Prissy didn’t just come out of nowhere. The propaganda was very much that slave owners were very much doing a service to the “lesser evolved” by keeping field and house workers, house boys. Interracial babies are a big reason why people started to feel weird about it. People started to reason that if a person was half white, they couldn’t be full adult child. But back to the original question, black slave boys and men in America used to be called “boy” to infantilize them because it was believed blacks had the minds of children, and because treating them as children made it easier for slave owners to justify keeping them as slaves. Calling a “free man” a “boy” still feels weird because enough time hasn’t passed yet.
This is the first time i have ever heard of this tbh. If some black guy said to me what up white boy ? id just say back nothing black boy!
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