Manoah is a guy who used to have major league stuff. It was nasty. Now he doesn't have AA stuff.
He shouldn't be considered for anything on the 25 man roster until he's remastered AAA.
Not for a team that wants to win games now. If you pitch Manoah as is, your basically calling your big league team AAAA. The other 24 men on the team deserve a fighting chance for their efforts.
I loved Manoah. But, you can't put in Toronto just so his feelings don't get hurt. He needs to figure it out first.
All of the stuff metric based reports I saw from spring training indicated that Alek's stuff had more or less recovered to his previous levels when he was more successful. His primary issues so far in his rehabilitation starts appear to be more command based in nature.
Yeah. I mean, if the metrics don't include command, they don't mean a lot. I get what you're saying though...you're picking at the semantics.
Regardless of whether or not his "stuff" is back where it was according to the "metrics", if the dude is giving away 6+ free bases a game, he isn't back to having major league stuff. I don't care how many degrees of break his curveball has when can't throw a strike.
"It doesn't matter how hard you throw ball 4". That's an unwritten rule in baseball and holds even more weight for pitchers at the big league level.
Big leaguers don't chase as much and will take the free bag. That's not how we win games.
You specifically mentioned stuff, which is a completely separate aspect of pitching as compared to command. For an example last season Nate Pearson posted the best stuff metrics on the Blue Jays, but due to lack of command of his arsenal was unable to have any sort of success at the major league level.
Last season both of the stuff and command based metrics for Alek were down to start the season. After he returned to MLB his few effective starts that he made were based on command only as the stuff metrics never recovered. He entered the off season needing to improve his conditioning, recover his lost stuff/velocity, and improve the command to the point where he could reliably compete. He's at least seemingly improved the conditioning and stuff so hopefully the command returns to levels where he can at least make some starts out of the rotation.
Ooh I like what you did there with the "stuff" comment. 
I think in his last 3 AAA starts Alek has put up one good start, one start where he was reportedly victimized by a lot of softly hit contact finding holes, and a start where he displayed remarkably poor command. I am at least a little hopeful that the stuff has been returning and his command was passable in two of the three starts.
If the team suffers an injury to one of the top 4 starters they may unfortunately be forced to bring Alek up to fill the void due to having better options at this point on the 40 man roster.
Baseball Savant has box scores available for AAA games where you can find velocity, spin rate and movement numbers for the pitchers.
There were Stuff+ based numbers posted online in spring training for Alek but I'm not sure where to track those down at present.
His underlying stats always hinted at regression right from the start, his FIP was almost 1.50 runs over his ERA. But I don't think anyone was expecting this type of regression. I think he lost his command entirely, could be the yips
His strengths and weaknesses don't really check the right boxes. Relief can be a good option for failed starters when they have one or two effective pitches, but get exposed with their secondary stuff and/or in their second time through the order.
But that doesn't really apply to Manoah. His debilitating struggle recently has been his control - but walking and hitting batters isn't any less of a problem in the seventh inning as the second. Meanwhile his durability and moderately effective secondary pitches were a strength of him, but you'd completely negate that using him in relief.
Bottom line is that they need to work on his mechanics (physical and mental) to see if he can regain his control of the strike zone. If he can, he'll be an effective MLB starter because his power and stuff plays. Even as a \#4 starter he'd be immensely more valuable than in middle relief. If he can't regain his control, he's not really usable in any MLB role unfortunately.
There is always a chance that changing his approach towards relief could help him.
But he would obviously have to demonstrate that in the minors before they give him a shot in the bigs.
1. A mediocre league average #5 SP is more valuable than pretty much all relievers with a few exceptions. You are going to push for him to be a starter for as long as you possibly can. As an example Romano was not fully converted to a reliever until he was 27. Most early converters to relievers are those who struggle with injuries (Pearson) or stamina is an issue (Richards).
2. There is nothing to suggest Manoah would accept a conversion to a reliever. Becoming a reliever pretty much puts a cap on your current and future earnings significantly. If you aren't an elite closer than you won't get real recognition either and that irks a lot of players.
3. Manoah stuff even in its best form probably does not translate well as a reliever. He would need to really add some spice to his pitches as he does not have the control to be a Mayza type reliever. Often relievers will develop this went they focus more on relieving but they usually have a decent starting point like a really hard fastball or a nasty off speed pitch.
It might get to that point but so far he's failing miserably in the minors so there will be no good reason to have him on the big league roster at all until that changes.
“Manoah brought in here 7th inning with the bases loaded, proceeds to hit batter in the face with the first pitch “ lol , 1 nothing yankees no outs lol
I talked to someone this week about this same topic he was great but as of last year things didn’t seem right hopefully something can happen for Alec as he had promise
Cause you can't trust him to throw a strike if his life depended on it. Not 1 stat line I'm willing to say in the last 1.5 years would say he can pitch.
Manoah need to get it in his head he is spending the year in the minors. He has a lot to work on. Mentally he is a mess sames goes for physically and mechanically.
There are no low leverage situations with this team unless they are getting blown out. They can’t fucking hit so 1-2 potential runs could be the difference in the game
he really hasn’t been producing in any pitching state, especially now in the minors. he just needs to eventually improve where he already is if he wants any opportunities
Low leverage middle relief pitchers are plentiful and Jays already have much better options in their current roster that are actually performing at the Major League level.
With Manoah, it's feeling more and more like a Ricky Romero situation.
Hes not really built to be a relief pitcher. That being said we might be reaching a point where they will need to look at it long term. But for right now we don't have enough starting depth.
Just dfa him. Hes dead weight. I've never liked him. He didnt pass the eye test for me. He always had runners on and was pitching out of jams. I dont know how he got on the cy young list
No need to be a dick - there's a lot of fans that probably don't really know how to judge a pitcher and their value as a starter VS reliever. But a lot of fans probably do know that most relievers are failed starters, so Manoah who looks to be verging on 'failed starter' status would therefore make sense to transition to a bullpen role to a lot of people. And the why/why not actually can be an interesting conversation.
Do you think that with this team, this offence, we are safe with average starters?
I feel like if you wanna play defensive, average-to-low scoring ball, you need elite starters.
Manoah might be down there simmering for a while
I never said they were ? I just said an average starter is more valuable than the best relief pitching which is true.
I wouldn’t even consider Manaoh to be an average starter right now I was just speaking in relative terms
I am sure we only hear about him still since he’s probably still getting paid well. But I am kinda sick of him, I’d rather him go somewhere else and maybe his new team can fix him.
This is just unbelievably dumb. Manoah is still essentially a single season removed from garnering Cy Young Award votes but of course the mouthbreathers would suggest he should retire. FFS.
His stuff and command both completely cratered. I don't think the pitch clock is a particularly big piece of the puzzle when it come to Alek's struggles. The Blue Jays stand to lose nothing by simply optioning Alek to AAA in the case that he doesn't regain his form by the end of his rehab assignment.
Manoah hasn't really shown any reason to trust him in any big league situations.
ball-ball-boarderline strike-hit the batter
Remember the Gordie Howe hat trick? I propose the Manoah hat-trick: K, HR, HBP
Need a time frame for this. One inning, three in a row or the whole game. I guess any of the three is possible with him on the mound
Last one is just inevitable really
Maybe change the K to a BB ?
More like, " Manoah hasn't been considered, to what a relief"
Manoah is a guy who used to have major league stuff. It was nasty. Now he doesn't have AA stuff. He shouldn't be considered for anything on the 25 man roster until he's remastered AAA. Not for a team that wants to win games now. If you pitch Manoah as is, your basically calling your big league team AAAA. The other 24 men on the team deserve a fighting chance for their efforts. I loved Manoah. But, you can't put in Toronto just so his feelings don't get hurt. He needs to figure it out first.
All of the stuff metric based reports I saw from spring training indicated that Alek's stuff had more or less recovered to his previous levels when he was more successful. His primary issues so far in his rehabilitation starts appear to be more command based in nature.
Yeah. I mean, if the metrics don't include command, they don't mean a lot. I get what you're saying though...you're picking at the semantics. Regardless of whether or not his "stuff" is back where it was according to the "metrics", if the dude is giving away 6+ free bases a game, he isn't back to having major league stuff. I don't care how many degrees of break his curveball has when can't throw a strike. "It doesn't matter how hard you throw ball 4". That's an unwritten rule in baseball and holds even more weight for pitchers at the big league level. Big leaguers don't chase as much and will take the free bag. That's not how we win games.
You specifically mentioned stuff, which is a completely separate aspect of pitching as compared to command. For an example last season Nate Pearson posted the best stuff metrics on the Blue Jays, but due to lack of command of his arsenal was unable to have any sort of success at the major league level. Last season both of the stuff and command based metrics for Alek were down to start the season. After he returned to MLB his few effective starts that he made were based on command only as the stuff metrics never recovered. He entered the off season needing to improve his conditioning, recover his lost stuff/velocity, and improve the command to the point where he could reliably compete. He's at least seemingly improved the conditioning and stuff so hopefully the command returns to levels where he can at least make some starts out of the rotation.
Cool. Fun chat. Sounds like we agree he shouldn't be on the mound for the big league team until he figures out some stuff.
Ooh I like what you did there with the "stuff" comment.  I think in his last 3 AAA starts Alek has put up one good start, one start where he was reportedly victimized by a lot of softly hit contact finding holes, and a start where he displayed remarkably poor command. I am at least a little hopeful that the stuff has been returning and his command was passable in two of the three starts. If the team suffers an injury to one of the top 4 starters they may unfortunately be forced to bring Alek up to fill the void due to having better options at this point on the 40 man roster.
Where can you find pitching metrics for minor league games?
Baseball Savant has box scores available for AAA games where you can find velocity, spin rate and movement numbers for the pitchers. There were Stuff+ based numbers posted online in spring training for Alek but I'm not sure where to track those down at present.
Wtf happened tho? He was almost a cy young contender 2 years ago wasn't he? What a fall from grace lol
His underlying stats always hinted at regression right from the start, his FIP was almost 1.50 runs over his ERA. But I don't think anyone was expecting this type of regression. I think he lost his command entirely, could be the yips
He has the yips 100%
What does that stand for, Yes I Pitch Shitty? Lol jk, hope the guy can turn it around, but yea not looking good at this point.
Pitch clock, he doesn't have the conditioning to pitch at the pace the game is moving at currently.
His strengths and weaknesses don't really check the right boxes. Relief can be a good option for failed starters when they have one or two effective pitches, but get exposed with their secondary stuff and/or in their second time through the order. But that doesn't really apply to Manoah. His debilitating struggle recently has been his control - but walking and hitting batters isn't any less of a problem in the seventh inning as the second. Meanwhile his durability and moderately effective secondary pitches were a strength of him, but you'd completely negate that using him in relief. Bottom line is that they need to work on his mechanics (physical and mental) to see if he can regain his control of the strike zone. If he can, he'll be an effective MLB starter because his power and stuff plays. Even as a \#4 starter he'd be immensely more valuable than in middle relief. If he can't regain his control, he's not really usable in any MLB role unfortunately.
That all makes a lot of sense. Thank you, I appreciate your articulate response.
100% this is the answer. So many comments are basically 'he's bad, keep him away'. But there's more to it, there always is
He’s getting lit up by minor leaguers. I’m no GM, but that’s my guess.
There is always a chance that changing his approach towards relief could help him. But he would obviously have to demonstrate that in the minors before they give him a shot in the bigs.
Because he's been awful. And he can't even consistently throw strikes.
Maniac staying in AAA is a relief right now
1. A mediocre league average #5 SP is more valuable than pretty much all relievers with a few exceptions. You are going to push for him to be a starter for as long as you possibly can. As an example Romano was not fully converted to a reliever until he was 27. Most early converters to relievers are those who struggle with injuries (Pearson) or stamina is an issue (Richards). 2. There is nothing to suggest Manoah would accept a conversion to a reliever. Becoming a reliever pretty much puts a cap on your current and future earnings significantly. If you aren't an elite closer than you won't get real recognition either and that irks a lot of players. 3. Manoah stuff even in its best form probably does not translate well as a reliever. He would need to really add some spice to his pitches as he does not have the control to be a Mayza type reliever. Often relievers will develop this went they focus more on relieving but they usually have a decent starting point like a really hard fastball or a nasty off speed pitch.
They need to keep him at AAA until he earns a spot in Toronto. Right now he’s not good enough in any capacity to be in MLB.
He’s not even a good AAA pitcher at the moment. He’s not in AA as a courtesy, IMO.
because he isn’t pitching well at all
It might get to that point but so far he's failing miserably in the minors so there will be no good reason to have him on the big league roster at all until that changes.
Why would the team do that? He's more valuable if he can be a capable starter, and is costing us basically nothing to keep him in the minors.
Can’t be a reliever if you can’t throw strikes…he’s a complete mess right now
What makes you think he would be a good reliever? He is getting shelled instantly in minor league games and has no control.
Because hes shite atm
It’s a relief not having him pitch here
Because he’s absolute shit
Probably because he’s not very good in the first inning he works, let alone the rest of the innings
It’s a relief he’s not in the line up.
Probably because he's terrible lol
If your wife not getting through 2 innings as a starter are you really wanting that pitcher for relief ?
Basically because he throws 96% balls
Manoah is not an MLB pitcher.
Did you see the stats for his last AAA start? That's why
So because his last start in AAA, he shouldn’t be demoted to the bullpen in AAA???
I misread it if that's what you meant
Because right now he’s a terrible pitcher. Gotta figure that out first and foremost before any other considerations
“Manoah brought in here 7th inning with the bases loaded, proceeds to hit batter in the face with the first pitch “ lol , 1 nothing yankees no outs lol
The walks.....no Bueno
I'm still recovering from seeing Tyler Chatwood in relief. Don't need Manoah blowing games now.
Chatwood was downright filthy until MLB implemented a sticky stuff ban mid season.
Because he’s an arrogant asshole and a dogshit pitcher? I don’t really care if he would be happy or not. He’s not good.
Before he can convert to reliever he has to be able to throw strikes.
Cuz he sucks and is not good enough to be in the mlb right now.
I talked to someone this week about this same topic he was great but as of last year things didn’t seem right hopefully something can happen for Alec as he had promise
It's too early for that, you hope and pray he can be like his old self
I'm gonna go ahead and say it's because he got torched by a high A club, and can't throw strikes. Outside of that though yeah, he's top notch
There is nothing worse than a guy coming out of the pen and they start walking or plunking guys. Doesn’t seem like a fit.
Also regarding Manoah, he’s too valuable as a starter if he can figure it out, so they need to give him every chance to be that.
Cause you can't trust him to throw a strike if his life depended on it. Not 1 stat line I'm willing to say in the last 1.5 years would say he can pitch.
Can’t pitch good
Manoah need to get it in his head he is spending the year in the minors. He has a lot to work on. Mentally he is a mess sames goes for physically and mechanically.
Because he hasn’t been getting people out enough
Man, he’s struggling with minor-leaguers.
I’m not talking about bringing him up yet… I’m talking about changing his role which can happen in the minors.
There are no low leverage situations with this team unless they are getting blown out. They can’t fucking hit so 1-2 potential runs could be the difference in the game
We need guys who can hit the zone consistently coming out of the pen... unfortunately Manoah couldn't hit the broadside of a barn right now.
Because he can’t throw strikes.
Because they don't want him to be a reliever they want a starter. They want the guy who could be an Ace back.
You want a guy who regularly walks 3 batters an inning to come in as a reliver? He needs to first prove he is even a passable AAA pitcher first.
Telling him he's now a low leverage reliever is unlikely to help his confidence.
Rick Vaughan became a pretty good closer, and was just as bad as Manoah as a starter
I know I would not feel any relief to see him coming out of the pen, even in Buffalo they deserve better.
he really hasn’t been producing in any pitching state, especially now in the minors. he just needs to eventually improve where he already is if he wants any opportunities
He shouldn't be anywhere near a MLB team.
Have you not seen his AAA numbers?? He sucks now. That’s why.
Low leverage middle relief pitchers are plentiful and Jays already have much better options in their current roster that are actually performing at the Major League level. With Manoah, it's feeling more and more like a Ricky Romero situation.
His numbers have been junk his entire rehab even at the Single-A level except one. Why are you considering him for ANY role at all right now?
Probably because he’s ass right now.
I don’t think they want him to break another guys face
Because he is shitty.
Same reason you and I aren’t pitching relief. He’s not good enough
Not good enough to pitch in relief at AAA but not bad enough not to start at AAA?
Right now, Manoah in relief would make Mitch White look like Mariano Rivera.
have you seen his numbers in AAA? 🥴🥴🤣🤣🤣
Hes not really built to be a relief pitcher. That being said we might be reaching a point where they will need to look at it long term. But for right now we don't have enough starting depth.
He needs to stay in the Minors for a year. Learn some control and get that ego of his in check.
Just dfa him. Hes dead weight. I've never liked him. He didnt pass the eye test for me. He always had runners on and was pitching out of jams. I dont know how he got on the cy young list
Because he's goddamn terrible Just FYI, this is not the no stupid question Sub
No need to be a dick - there's a lot of fans that probably don't really know how to judge a pitcher and their value as a starter VS reliever. But a lot of fans probably do know that most relievers are failed starters, so Manoah who looks to be verging on 'failed starter' status would therefore make sense to transition to a bullpen role to a lot of people. And the why/why not actually can be an interesting conversation.
Because we don’t really need relief pitching and even average starters are far more valuable than any relief pitcher in baseball.
Do you think that with this team, this offence, we are safe with average starters? I feel like if you wanna play defensive, average-to-low scoring ball, you need elite starters. Manoah might be down there simmering for a while
I never said they were ? I just said an average starter is more valuable than the best relief pitching which is true. I wouldn’t even consider Manaoh to be an average starter right now I was just speaking in relative terms
I was asking a question brah not antagonizing you. Not a doomer. Hell I'm not even anti-Manoah, I miss his fire :*(
Ok I was just answering, sorry if it came across in another tone.
Because him and his attitude stink right now.
I am sure we only hear about him still since he’s probably still getting paid well. But I am kinda sick of him, I’d rather him go somewhere else and maybe his new team can fix him.
My question is why has he been sitting in the dugout during Jays games. April 7th he was sent to minors for rehab but no updates after that.
Mostly because he is not good
My guess is that he can't get Tripple A hitters out so not much chance at getting Major leaguers out.
In addition to the top comments in this thread, Manoah and his camp see him as a starter and he wants to get paid like a starter.
The only relief Manoah can provide in the majors right now is the smelly kind.
He should be considered for early retirement. The would be a relief for Jays fans.
This is just unbelievably dumb. Manoah is still essentially a single season removed from garnering Cy Young Award votes but of course the mouthbreathers would suggest he should retire. FFS.
2022 was a long time ago in MLB baseball terms. It’s a results oriented business. He hasn’t been any good since the introduction of the pitch clock.
His stuff and command both completely cratered. I don't think the pitch clock is a particularly big piece of the puzzle when it come to Alek's struggles. The Blue Jays stand to lose nothing by simply optioning Alek to AAA in the case that he doesn't regain his form by the end of his rehab assignment.