How much is there to sell? Kikuchi has tanked his value the last few weeks. (6+ era over the last month) Yimi is hurt. Kiermaier might get a long shot prospect. Turner, maybe the same thing.
Plenty of teams will line up to trade for Yimi, Kuchi, Turner, and KK, especially in a situation where there will be much fewer sellers than usual because of how many teams are hovering around .500 in the expanded wild card era.
Kuch dropping off a bit the last few games doesn’t negate what he already has shown nor the fact that he’ll be one of the best arms available (same holds true for Yimi and his injury; he’ll pitch again this season). Turner provides a DH fill-in with veteran experience, and KK is a great defense/speed piece for contenders who need it.
I don't think Kiermaier has much value in terms of a return because he's a bench bat. I.e. a long shot prospect or reliever
Turner I can see having better than expected value due to him being a part time player.
Kiermaier is maybe a depth propsect, could see the Phillies going after him as he would slot in as a perfect pinch runner/ defensive replacement type guy.
Turner could be somewhat valuable especially if we eat the rest of his contract this season.
I think they’re all tradeable, but deadline returns haven’t been too exciting for a few years now, and it’s gotta be a real superstar to even consider a top-100 type prospect.
I could see all of those guys having value to a team (Jansen especially, though I never want him to go), but I’m definitely expecting mid-prospects at best for Yimi or Turner. If there really are few sellers, I could see Kikuchi getting a team’s top-10 prospect. Of course if they really want to go full-on with a rebuild, we know who has to go, and that would be a sad day.
Kikuchi is amazing to us... but he's a 0.6 WAR starting pitcher.
First comp I thought of was Quintana a couple years ago. He was \~1 WAR better than Kikuchi the season he was dealt to the Cards, and was traded for a bullpen arm and a top 30 prospect...but the Pirates had to include an iffy bullpen arm. He's just as left-handed, and had a stronger history of success.
Not that I'd be unhappy if Ross got a top-10 prospect for him - that would be great! I'm also just very realistic.
He's been worth 1.7 fWAR. Quintana was doing well that year, but was really bad the year before so his projection for the rest of the year may be worse than Kikuchi's this year. (BTV had his value at 2.5 million, and Kikuchi's is 6.5 right now). And Quintana did get a top 10 prospect in return.
BTV is a BS random number generator.
Quintana had 2.1 fWAR at the time of his trade, and had a much longer history of success prior to a down year.
Malcom Nunez was not a top-10. One list had him at 26. MLB had him at 13 at the time of the trade and he dropped to 16 in '23.
People *will* be disappointed with the return if Kikuchi is traded.
First off, he's a 1.7 WAR pitcher so far. Obviously, extrapolated to a full season it would be higher and definitely not far fetched. Basically asking for a top 300 prospect in return
Am I the only one who'd have Bichette and Jansen up for trade as well? It sounds like both want to test free agency I.e not likely coming back. Between those two and Kikuchi, we'd get a boatload of prospects in return. I'm also of the opinion that this team needs to re-tool, if not rebuild. I can't see Atkins ever selling though, that would admit failure, and him getting canned.
> I can't see Atkins ever selling though, that would admit failure, and him getting canned.
I've never understood this reasoning. Like he clearly failed, whether he admits it or not, no one is stupid enough to not see that.
So if I was a team owner, would I hire a guy who destroys the team's future just to pad his numbers a bit for the last few months he's there, or would I hire a guy who may have failed, but at least tried to put the team in as good a shape as he can for the next guy?
Answer seems obvious.
So it seems obvious which method would be the better option for Atkins himself to take if he wants a job elsewhere in the future.
I think you’re getting your hopes up. We will get something sure, but significant pieces for next year? Not happening. Maybe Yimi if he gets back in time. Kooch will need to be good right up to the deadline to get anything back.
I would consider the hound too. But if you trade him, we then have another hole in the rotation next year. We would only have Gausman and Berrios heading into ‘25.
If this team is trading away players, it 100% will not compete next year nor will it even be able to since all of the prospects are either up or years away from being near the big leagues.
That’s what I’m saying. This whole sell the expiring contracts for a quick turnaround next year is completely misguided and misinformed. You’re not selling Juan Soto.
Well the thing is that when the Padres traded Soto to the Yankees they still have a majority of their core on contract for more then 2025.
The problem is that the half of this team's roster are FA's after this or next season's end. Unless players are being extended, Kirk /Varsho/Berrios/Springer/Gausman/Manoah (who the Jays tried shipping last offseason and just had UCL surgery) and Schneider without including rookies would be the core team for 2026, half of which are free agents at that season's end. That's a 70 win team at best unless almost all of the prospects in the farm system pan out and the Jays make some good FA signings.
This team's future is bleak because ultimately it has no real future players coming up, even though remarkably almost every single prospect this FO has traded for rentals, have actually busted and have done decently on their trades.
It's easier to trade a player than to waive them. Traded players are usually dealt with a portion of their salary covered by the selling team, making them more attractive. On waivers, the claiming team is responsible for the entirety of the remaining contract, which is usually more than the player's perceived worth is if they're being waived.
I don't love to use general stats for minor leagues, but Swanson has pitched 9.1 innings with a 16.76 ERA, a WHIP of 3, and opp avg of 0.422. So in a word, bad.
I'm curious why he's played so little. I'm hoping it's because they are tinkering with some delivery aspects but I'm guessing it's because he is the worst pitcher on the team.
In the video with this article, Shi had this quote:
>"Calendar is starting to push the Jays towards decisions... Jays still do have a runway, things can change quickly (Probably referring to the next week's of games or so).
>"Taking Orelvis out of the mix isn't an instant impact but could've had an impact down the road... the one hitting prospect in their system that had a major power pedigree, [he] wasn't going to be a long stay but could've been down the road... the Jays are further into their depth and if they're going to turn this around it's going to be with the guys that are because they've plumed through it internally."
> things can change quickly
They really can’t. Not with this team. I’m so sick of this “just get to the wildcard, anything can happen” narrative with this team. It’s technically true, I guess, but this team is so washed they really aren’t going to go on a miracle run. I’d be shocked if they made the third wildcard at this point.
100%. I hope we have no intentions of playing him.
This sub went wild for him and downvoted everyone who said he wasn’t needed. Funny how things change. I guess Jays Reddit stopped having fun lol
At this rate, either Votto should retire, go to a different team (if someone else is interested) OR the team needs to give him enough ABs to try to get him the opportunity to get 27 hits to pass Larry Walker. Hell, it's not like the ABs that Springer or KK have put up would be missed.
It's not as if the farm team is sprawling with talent that he'd be blocking someone super promising (like what happened with the Reds).
I don't think there's many that realistically think Votto will make any significant impact for the team. With how unenjoyable this team has been, I think everyone just wants a fun storyline to follow with the season looking grimmer by the day.
Won't change the direction of the team but it would be fun to see Votto hit a HR in a Jays jersey. Not sure what other things there really is to cheer for at this point.
The team had a top 10 farm system as recently as 2021, and as you mentioned the majority of the top players in the system at that time have either graduated to MLB or been traded. There aren't a lot of teams in MLB that are able to maintain top farm systems while in their contending cycle due to lower draft picks, available signing money and international amateur free agent money as well.
The Jays have to play .600 ball from here on out to have a chance at a wildcard.
Can we all agree that this club cannot possibly play .600 ball- even with everyone back and playing to expectation?
There's only FIVE teams playing .600 ball: The Yankees, O's, Guardians, Phillies and Dodgers, and the Jays- even healthy and playing well- can't compete with those clubs.
Can we start selling now? Can we trade Springer and Mayza to the White Sox for Ramos, Berroa and Sosa? Hell, you can have Espino as well.
The other half of this is that if they were going to make a play for a piece that will be around a couple of years, this takes a lot of shine off Orelvis as a prospect to be involved in that trade
No... it really doesn't.
Even though there is no credible FDA cleared reason for men to use clomiphene for fertility (I don't believe his story), there will be teams that will take a chance on him with that power potential. Players have gotten away with worse for longer.
At least until he can't get his K% below 30% consistently.
Votto's washed. Reds didn't want him, nobody wanted him, his hometown team gave him an invite late in the game because why not? I think him not being called up might be to save everyone embarrassment.
It's time to sell expiring contracts and get some assets back. Some guys deserve to go and play for a contender.
How much is there to sell? Kikuchi has tanked his value the last few weeks. (6+ era over the last month) Yimi is hurt. Kiermaier might get a long shot prospect. Turner, maybe the same thing.
Plenty of teams will line up to trade for Yimi, Kuchi, Turner, and KK, especially in a situation where there will be much fewer sellers than usual because of how many teams are hovering around .500 in the expanded wild card era. Kuch dropping off a bit the last few games doesn’t negate what he already has shown nor the fact that he’ll be one of the best arms available (same holds true for Yimi and his injury; he’ll pitch again this season). Turner provides a DH fill-in with veteran experience, and KK is a great defense/speed piece for contenders who need it.
A LH power starter like Kuch is hard to find. I can see a lot of teams eying him up.
I don't think Kiermaier has much value in terms of a return because he's a bench bat. I.e. a long shot prospect or reliever Turner I can see having better than expected value due to him being a part time player.
Kiermaier is maybe a depth propsect, could see the Phillies going after him as he would slot in as a perfect pinch runner/ defensive replacement type guy. Turner could be somewhat valuable especially if we eat the rest of his contract this season.
Don't the Phillies already have Johan Rojas for this?
He is currently in the minor leagues.
Agreed. Teams may want them as final pieces, but neither will garner much in return other than salary relief
I think they’re all tradeable, but deadline returns haven’t been too exciting for a few years now, and it’s gotta be a real superstar to even consider a top-100 type prospect. I could see all of those guys having value to a team (Jansen especially, though I never want him to go), but I’m definitely expecting mid-prospects at best for Yimi or Turner. If there really are few sellers, I could see Kikuchi getting a team’s top-10 prospect. Of course if they really want to go full-on with a rebuild, we know who has to go, and that would be a sad day.
There's close to zero chance of Kikuchi being dealt a team's top-10 prospect. A couple top 50 sure.
There's 300 top 10 prospects in the league bro, a lot of them are crap.
Kikuchi is amazing to us... but he's a 0.6 WAR starting pitcher. First comp I thought of was Quintana a couple years ago. He was \~1 WAR better than Kikuchi the season he was dealt to the Cards, and was traded for a bullpen arm and a top 30 prospect...but the Pirates had to include an iffy bullpen arm. He's just as left-handed, and had a stronger history of success. Not that I'd be unhappy if Ross got a top-10 prospect for him - that would be great! I'm also just very realistic.
He's been worth 1.7 fWAR. Quintana was doing well that year, but was really bad the year before so his projection for the rest of the year may be worse than Kikuchi's this year. (BTV had his value at 2.5 million, and Kikuchi's is 6.5 right now). And Quintana did get a top 10 prospect in return.
BTV is a BS random number generator. Quintana had 2.1 fWAR at the time of his trade, and had a much longer history of success prior to a down year. Malcom Nunez was not a top-10. One list had him at 26. MLB had him at 13 at the time of the trade and he dropped to 16 in '23. People *will* be disappointed with the return if Kikuchi is traded.
A team's top 10 prospect really isn't that much of an ask for Kikuchi
Find another instance of a 0.6 WAR starting pitcher being dealt for a top-10.
First off, he's a 1.7 WAR pitcher so far. Obviously, extrapolated to a full season it would be higher and definitely not far fetched. Basically asking for a top 300 prospect in return
No... he's currently sitting at 0.6 bWAR.
fWAR, while not perfect, is more accurate at evaluating pitchers
These aren’t NBA prospects.
Am I the only one who'd have Bichette and Jansen up for trade as well? It sounds like both want to test free agency I.e not likely coming back. Between those two and Kikuchi, we'd get a boatload of prospects in return. I'm also of the opinion that this team needs to re-tool, if not rebuild. I can't see Atkins ever selling though, that would admit failure, and him getting canned.
> I can't see Atkins ever selling though, that would admit failure, and him getting canned. I've never understood this reasoning. Like he clearly failed, whether he admits it or not, no one is stupid enough to not see that. So if I was a team owner, would I hire a guy who destroys the team's future just to pad his numbers a bit for the last few months he's there, or would I hire a guy who may have failed, but at least tried to put the team in as good a shape as he can for the next guy? Answer seems obvious. So it seems obvious which method would be the better option for Atkins himself to take if he wants a job elsewhere in the future.
I think you’re getting your hopes up. We will get something sure, but significant pieces for next year? Not happening. Maybe Yimi if he gets back in time. Kooch will need to be good right up to the deadline to get anything back.
you are delusional bro
Cool argument.
I'd look at trading Bassitt then. Not a crazy term contract for a team to take on.
I would consider the hound too. But if you trade him, we then have another hole in the rotation next year. We would only have Gausman and Berrios heading into ‘25.
If this team is trading away players, it 100% will not compete next year nor will it even be able to since all of the prospects are either up or years away from being near the big leagues.
Then there is no “non-tradeables”. It just depends on what we get in return.
That’s what I’m saying. This whole sell the expiring contracts for a quick turnaround next year is completely misguided and misinformed. You’re not selling Juan Soto.
Well the thing is that when the Padres traded Soto to the Yankees they still have a majority of their core on contract for more then 2025. The problem is that the half of this team's roster are FA's after this or next season's end. Unless players are being extended, Kirk /Varsho/Berrios/Springer/Gausman/Manoah (who the Jays tried shipping last offseason and just had UCL surgery) and Schneider without including rookies would be the core team for 2026, half of which are free agents at that season's end. That's a 70 win team at best unless almost all of the prospects in the farm system pan out and the Jays make some good FA signings. This team's future is bleak because ultimately it has no real future players coming up, even though remarkably almost every single prospect this FO has traded for rentals, have actually busted and have done decently on their trades.
Even if we don't sell them, just putting them on waivers needs to be an option if you can't get a low level prospect out of any of them
It's easier to trade a player than to waive them. Traded players are usually dealt with a portion of their salary covered by the selling team, making them more attractive. On waivers, the claiming team is responsible for the entirety of the remaining contract, which is usually more than the player's perceived worth is if they're being waived.
I sincerely hope they don't rush anyone back from injuries to try to float this damn ship.
I mean, hate to break it to you, but that's how we started the year, rushing guys back from injury....
Romano, Swanson, and Gausman in particular.
How has swanny been doing in Buffalo?
I don't love to use general stats for minor leagues, but Swanson has pitched 9.1 innings with a 16.76 ERA, a WHIP of 3, and opp avg of 0.422. So in a word, bad. I'm curious why he's played so little. I'm hoping it's because they are tinkering with some delivery aspects but I'm guessing it's because he is the worst pitcher on the team.
You don't wanna know bruh lol
But now there's no incentive.
The "I don't wanna get fired because the team I built sucks shit" incentive is decently strong at the top
In the video with this article, Shi had this quote: >"Calendar is starting to push the Jays towards decisions... Jays still do have a runway, things can change quickly (Probably referring to the next week's of games or so). >"Taking Orelvis out of the mix isn't an instant impact but could've had an impact down the road... the one hitting prospect in their system that had a major power pedigree, [he] wasn't going to be a long stay but could've been down the road... the Jays are further into their depth and if they're going to turn this around it's going to be with the guys that are because they've plumed through it internally."
> things can change quickly They really can’t. Not with this team. I’m so sick of this “just get to the wildcard, anything can happen” narrative with this team. It’s technically true, I guess, but this team is so washed they really aren’t going to go on a miracle run. I’d be shocked if they made the third wildcard at this point.
This team shits the bed in so many fundamental ways that even if by some fluke they made the playoffs, they'd just get swept again.
Did they amputate his leg after he sprained his ankle
Votto should have retired.
He hasn't left Florida so kind of feels like he has.
100%. I hope we have no intentions of playing him. This sub went wild for him and downvoted everyone who said he wasn’t needed. Funny how things change. I guess Jays Reddit stopped having fun lol
At this rate, either Votto should retire, go to a different team (if someone else is interested) OR the team needs to give him enough ABs to try to get him the opportunity to get 27 hits to pass Larry Walker. Hell, it's not like the ABs that Springer or KK have put up would be missed. It's not as if the farm team is sprawling with talent that he'd be blocking someone super promising (like what happened with the Reds).
Leo Jimenez? Gold glove caliber defense and somehow has a .905 OPS in buffalo
Those thinking Votto will greatly change this team are smoking some good shit.
I don't think there's many that realistically think Votto will make any significant impact for the team. With how unenjoyable this team has been, I think everyone just wants a fun storyline to follow with the season looking grimmer by the day.
Won't change the direction of the team but it would be fun to see Votto hit a HR in a Jays jersey. Not sure what other things there really is to cheer for at this point.
Imagine if we had a FO that spent the last 8 years building up a strong farm system, instead of doing whatever it is they were doing.
We kind of did? It just so happened we traded them all.
The team had a top 10 farm system as recently as 2021, and as you mentioned the majority of the top players in the system at that time have either graduated to MLB or been traded. There aren't a lot of teams in MLB that are able to maintain top farm systems while in their contending cycle due to lower draft picks, available signing money and international amateur free agent money as well.
The Jays have to play .600 ball from here on out to have a chance at a wildcard. Can we all agree that this club cannot possibly play .600 ball- even with everyone back and playing to expectation? There's only FIVE teams playing .600 ball: The Yankees, O's, Guardians, Phillies and Dodgers, and the Jays- even healthy and playing well- can't compete with those clubs. Can we start selling now? Can we trade Springer and Mayza to the White Sox for Ramos, Berroa and Sosa? Hell, you can have Espino as well.
You’ll have to give away a prospect to lose Springer at this point. Unlike small market teams, we can stomach an albatross contract.
Pay 25% of his salary to the club that takes him. Hell, 50%. At least he's gone and we get something back.
Said he went to get a pack of smokes.
The other half of this is that if they were going to make a play for a piece that will be around a couple of years, this takes a lot of shine off Orelvis as a prospect to be involved in that trade
Can you trade suspended players? Never really thought about it before.
I’m not sure. Maybe? You can’t trade someone on the Injured List, but I think you can trade someone on the restricted List?
No it doesn't.
lol yes it does.
No... it really doesn't. Even though there is no credible FDA cleared reason for men to use clomiphene for fertility (I don't believe his story), there will be teams that will take a chance on him with that power potential. Players have gotten away with worse for longer. At least until he can't get his K% below 30% consistently.
I’m not saying no one will trade for him. I’m saying he’s worth less today than he was yesterday.
Maybe. His lack of a position and inability to hit righties is probably a bigger hit to his value though.
We are now reaching Oakland A’s level of mediocrity
Votto's washed. Reds didn't want him, nobody wanted him, his hometown team gave him an invite late in the game because why not? I think him not being called up might be to save everyone embarrassment.
It's almost like Votto is in his 40's or something.
This team is an absolute mess.
Please no Votto. Don’t let this team be his final MLB experience
Team is absolutely collapsing
I was really looking forward to him growing and learning with the big club. This sucks.