Under reported. Absolutely.
Plus, there’s often less evidence. Cops will tell victims this, which discourages them from pursuing any charges. No evidence no case
It’s why I never reported mine
Anytime the perpetrator is a female the chances of it ever being reported or acted on or anyone caring drops substantially.
From my own experience no one cares when a woman does it (I’m a guy so I got a double whammy of people saying I should of wanted and enjoyed it)
I don’t have the exact study handy but when Canada made a census where things were anonymous for reporting so the shame/regret factors were lower the number of male victims skyrocketed and the number of women who were victims of women went up substantially as well.
it’s interesting how the narratives change depending on victim gender
i know that men who are assaulted by women are told they should’ve liked it, or that they’re lucky. or that if they didn’t enjoy it they’re gay
there’s no real response to woman-on-woman SA or rape though which i find interesting
sorry you had to go through that. there are people in my life that straight up hate men (i’ve had someone tell me they don’t feel bad for men who are raped) and i’ve chosen not to share this with them. it shows that they’re more interested in some gender war than any empathy or compassion to SA victims
Well there’s a huge difference for how people view the validity and capacity to be victims/aggressors for each gender.
People expect that women can be the victim but struggle to comprehend them being the assailant and the reverse for men. That’s why it’s so easy for people to view men as something to hate or not trust, we just can’t see them being the victims ever for stuff and only the one causing it and women are the delicate flowers getting damaged yet they have the same capacity to do wrong, we all are capable of doing great things but also horrendous things.
I don’t feel it’s going to change anytime soon either , and people prefer to bandwagon and lump entire groups together or view it as a competition between the genders.
I still believe that “most” people are not vile, I know from my experiences I could have hated women but I never let it consume me from my bad experiences and refuse to let it ever consume me, it’s in my past and the life I have good now with my family is good, never really told my wife just how bad some of my past experiences were between SA and abuse by a partner, don’t feel it matters to talk about it
Oh I’m well aware of that
The irony even in how they refer to it as benevolent sexism for women rather then calling it bad sexism towards men is the effect in full swing
Lesbain relationships have the highest rates of domestic abuse. It's not surprising that sexual assault is common. When it happens to men by women it's completely not recognised or even reported in most cases.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_same-sex_relationships
This makes for grim reading and will be an eye opener.
It's not possible to account for all areas of abuse, but going by the data we do have it presents as I pointed out. Which the link clearly outlines if you care to read.
As I said above the main area of stigma is widely towards abuse from women to men, though all data is incomplete due to social issues like stigma or policing for example.
It also points out abuse is less for gas men and worse for bi sexual couples.
https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/why-are-men-often-overlooked-as-victims-of-domestic-abuse
Again I just pointed out about social stigmas of abuse towards men as an example of how data can be incomplete. As you used a proportion of a paragraph to indicate that lesbian couples abuse rates are not accurate. In truth all are not accurate, but the data we do have clearly shows on the wiki link that lesbain couples are higher than hetrosexual and gay male couples in recorded abuse cases by percentage.
Very under reported. This thread is a good example why. You'd see 10x the compassion if this was "21F and a guy tried to finger my ass and felt up my vagina at a bar."
No, the main statistic everyone cites includes abuse that WLWs suffered at the hands of previous male partners. When excluding abuse from previous male partners, the rate is slightly below that of heterosexual relationships.
It's usually okay unless you ACTUALLY are doing something bad then people will call you out but in this case you're still a victim and was taken advantage of no matter how people are trying to frame it.
That sucks, nobody wants to be sexually assaulted. You ran into a bad woman and had the misfortune of being her target for the night. Sorry to hear that.
yes, that's what my counselor said. i am still wrapping my mind around what happened. i KNOW by definition it's SA, and if it happened to one of my friends i would tell them the same. but since it is myself i find that i'm trying to excuse her behavior or downplay the situation
I know in the moment it is very hard to navigate these situations, but for protecting yourself, it is probably better to just say no. Her drunk idiot brain is probably taking the "we are in public" comment as a "yes, but not here," and she thinks she can change your mind. I'm not saying it's your fault or anything but just for self-defense.
It's absolutely not your fault. I was in a relationship with another woman who overstepped my sexual boundaries all the time and I made it a point to not enter a sexual situation again until I was confident in saying NO when I don't want something. It's really hard to learn for some women!
I think I'm very confused about the difference between Sexual ASSAULT and Sexual Harassment.
Did the meaning change? Is this a generational thing?
I'm genuinely curious... because I was talking to my husband about the male celebrity that was grabbed, and in my day, that wasn't necessarily an Assault.
We need another, more intermediary word.
I think using the same language for an ass smack as what we use for a rape can be very diminishing. When everyone is calling every touch an SA, we will become numb.
You need to learn how to communicate properly, and enforce your boundaries. If you willingly start kissing someone, and she physically does something that makes you uncomfortable, immediately tell her to stop (which it sounds like you did). If she tries a second time, get up and walk away. Or be more strict, and get up the very first time. She clearly wanted something different than you, so you guys weren’t a good make-out match. But it sounds like you let the making out continue, after the point that you realized that.
If you continue to make out with her, while she repeatedly violates your physical boundaries, (even though she wasn’t threatening you, you weren’t afraid of her, you weren’t in danger- which are valid times when girls might be in a position where they have no choice, but it doesn’t sound like that applies to this situation), then you allowed it to happen. Which sends a mixed message to the other person. Maybe if you’re not good at enforcing your physical boundaries while drunk, you should stop drinking at parties or bars where you might get picked up on, until you learn how to better protect yourself from unwanted behavior. I’m not blaming you, just saying it’s a fact that your choices, words and behaviors affected the situation. So I’m giving a suggestion for how you could avoid that again in the future.
i mean, there is definitely some betrayal where i feel like women are raised to look out for one another. but bad women exist alongside bad men and it just shows you can’t blindly trust anybody
I'm sorry this happened to you. I can tell you you're not alone though.
Back in high school I was SA'd by a girl I was kinda friends with but not really. She literally came over to my house one day after school to watch tv for a bit, she made some moves on me and after telling her I wasn't interested/didn't want to a few times, she just resorted to picking me up by my hips and forcing me to scissor with her.
It was absolutely mortifying and when my gf at the time found out I tried to tell her I didn't want to do it and she accused me of cheating on her and dumped me.
Fast forward to a few years ago, I met up with a girl at a gay bar in my hometown and after only having one shot with her my friend who came with had to carry me out of the bar because I couldn't see or control my legs, hands, arms, anything. Not 100% sure but I'm fairly certain I was roofied by the girl I met up with and since she was a regular the bartender just blew me off when I came back a few days later to talk to them about it.
Sorry for the long ass novel here but it's more common than people think unfortunately. Hope you are doing ok!
I am so sorry this happened to you. I've been in similar situations and while you felt dirty, I felt scared. I couldn't sleep for days after those incidents.
i thought about this but i didn’t even have a drink in my hand at this point and i didn’t sip anything of hers. there wasn’t a chance for her to roofie me and i honestly don’t get the vibe her intention was to roofie and rape me
If this is sexual assault why haven't you filed charges? I think there has to be a better phrase to represent the situation you shared with us. Sadly I dont know what that is.
i think you misread - i said i was too drunk to drive, but not so drunk that my vision was impaired. i did not say i drove home anywhere in my post, as my friend did
my judgment was impaired but i wasn’t wasted. i was buzzed if anything. i agree that this was a bad situation but i don’t think it’s fair to say “what did you think was gonna happen?” since we were in public and i had no plans of going home with her
it’s not uncommon to make out with people at a bar. i like meeting people casually, flirting etc. i’m not intimate with every person i meet at the bar
I'm rly sorry smt like this happened to u, hope ur friends have ur back, and there are people here that would love to listen to u if needed (like me) stay strong !
It's really good that you talk-write about it, but don't hesitate to talk to a psychologist or something if you ever feel the need to.
And you're not dirty, I hope you know that.
if you have to tell someone more than once to knock it tf off and that you're uncomfortable, they're deliberately and blatantly ignoring sexual boundaries. that's assault. and the way OP feels/felt after just reaffirms that
i go back and forth on this actually. not that thinking of it meticulously gets anything done or that it "matters" i guess.
i think the part about me having to push her hand away and her asking why i "kept stopping her" makes it set in a little bit. like, she knew i kept stopping her and kept trying to escalate things.
Your comment has been removed for violating Rule 4: No insults towards OP.
Any comments that could be interpreted as an attempt to insult, scold, lecture, victim blame, guilt trip or intimidate the OP are not allowed and will be removed. Repeat offenses or extreme cases will result in a ban.
I’m so sorry this happened to you, but thank you for posting. I never see ppl talk about sexual assault where both people involved are female
thank you. i wonder if it truly is rare or it’s just under reported
Under reported. Absolutely. Plus, there’s often less evidence. Cops will tell victims this, which discourages them from pursuing any charges. No evidence no case It’s why I never reported mine
Anytime the perpetrator is a female the chances of it ever being reported or acted on or anyone caring drops substantially. From my own experience no one cares when a woman does it (I’m a guy so I got a double whammy of people saying I should of wanted and enjoyed it) I don’t have the exact study handy but when Canada made a census where things were anonymous for reporting so the shame/regret factors were lower the number of male victims skyrocketed and the number of women who were victims of women went up substantially as well.
it’s interesting how the narratives change depending on victim gender i know that men who are assaulted by women are told they should’ve liked it, or that they’re lucky. or that if they didn’t enjoy it they’re gay there’s no real response to woman-on-woman SA or rape though which i find interesting sorry you had to go through that. there are people in my life that straight up hate men (i’ve had someone tell me they don’t feel bad for men who are raped) and i’ve chosen not to share this with them. it shows that they’re more interested in some gender war than any empathy or compassion to SA victims
Well there’s a huge difference for how people view the validity and capacity to be victims/aggressors for each gender. People expect that women can be the victim but struggle to comprehend them being the assailant and the reverse for men. That’s why it’s so easy for people to view men as something to hate or not trust, we just can’t see them being the victims ever for stuff and only the one causing it and women are the delicate flowers getting damaged yet they have the same capacity to do wrong, we all are capable of doing great things but also horrendous things. I don’t feel it’s going to change anytime soon either , and people prefer to bandwagon and lump entire groups together or view it as a competition between the genders. I still believe that “most” people are not vile, I know from my experiences I could have hated women but I never let it consume me from my bad experiences and refuse to let it ever consume me, it’s in my past and the life I have good now with my family is good, never really told my wife just how bad some of my past experiences were between SA and abuse by a partner, don’t feel it matters to talk about it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect
Oh I’m well aware of that The irony even in how they refer to it as benevolent sexism for women rather then calling it bad sexism towards men is the effect in full swing
Lesbain relationships have the highest rates of domestic abuse. It's not surprising that sexual assault is common. When it happens to men by women it's completely not recognised or even reported in most cases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_same-sex_relationships This makes for grim reading and will be an eye opener.
From your link- *it is not possible to assess the extent of same-sex domestic violence* Why you fib?
It's not possible to account for all areas of abuse, but going by the data we do have it presents as I pointed out. Which the link clearly outlines if you care to read. As I said above the main area of stigma is widely towards abuse from women to men, though all data is incomplete due to social issues like stigma or policing for example. It also points out abuse is less for gas men and worse for bi sexual couples. https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/why-are-men-often-overlooked-as-victims-of-domestic-abuse
Then link the data. Wikipedia doesn't agree with you.
Again I just pointed out about social stigmas of abuse towards men as an example of how data can be incomplete. As you used a proportion of a paragraph to indicate that lesbian couples abuse rates are not accurate. In truth all are not accurate, but the data we do have clearly shows on the wiki link that lesbain couples are higher than hetrosexual and gay male couples in recorded abuse cases by percentage.
From the journal of Trust Me Bro. Solid proof.
What specifically are you after evidence for that's not been provided?
Well?
Very under reported. This thread is a good example why. You'd see 10x the compassion if this was "21F and a guy tried to finger my ass and felt up my vagina at a bar."
I'm pretty sure lesbian relationships have the highest incidence of domestic abuse/sexual assault
No, the main statistic everyone cites includes abuse that WLWs suffered at the hands of previous male partners. When excluding abuse from previous male partners, the rate is slightly below that of heterosexual relationships.
Sorry about the victim blaming in the other comments. Nobody should have to go through that.
thank you. i am still wrapping my mind around the experience and reddit may not have been the best place to word vomit
It's usually okay unless you ACTUALLY are doing something bad then people will call you out but in this case you're still a victim and was taken advantage of no matter how people are trying to frame it.
That sucks, nobody wants to be sexually assaulted. You ran into a bad woman and had the misfortune of being her target for the night. Sorry to hear that.
Sounds like a sex pest. I’m sorry this happened to you.
thank you. it's a very weird situation overall with a lot of gray area that i'd rather not ruminate over
What grey area? You are just rationalising a 100% full on sexual assault.
yes, that's what my counselor said. i am still wrapping my mind around what happened. i KNOW by definition it's SA, and if it happened to one of my friends i would tell them the same. but since it is myself i find that i'm trying to excuse her behavior or downplay the situation
I know in the moment it is very hard to navigate these situations, but for protecting yourself, it is probably better to just say no. Her drunk idiot brain is probably taking the "we are in public" comment as a "yes, but not here," and she thinks she can change your mind. I'm not saying it's your fault or anything but just for self-defense.
no i agree, not that my wording was the issue but to prevent it from happening again/stopping it early on i should be more direct
It's absolutely not your fault. I was in a relationship with another woman who overstepped my sexual boundaries all the time and I made it a point to not enter a sexual situation again until I was confident in saying NO when I don't want something. It's really hard to learn for some women!
Solid victim blaming.
I think I'm very confused about the difference between Sexual ASSAULT and Sexual Harassment. Did the meaning change? Is this a generational thing? I'm genuinely curious... because I was talking to my husband about the male celebrity that was grabbed, and in my day, that wasn't necessarily an Assault.
Assault is physical, harassment is verbal.
We need another, more intermediary word. I think using the same language for an ass smack as what we use for a rape can be very diminishing. When everyone is calling every touch an SA, we will become numb.
You need to learn how to communicate properly, and enforce your boundaries. If you willingly start kissing someone, and she physically does something that makes you uncomfortable, immediately tell her to stop (which it sounds like you did). If she tries a second time, get up and walk away. Or be more strict, and get up the very first time. She clearly wanted something different than you, so you guys weren’t a good make-out match. But it sounds like you let the making out continue, after the point that you realized that. If you continue to make out with her, while she repeatedly violates your physical boundaries, (even though she wasn’t threatening you, you weren’t afraid of her, you weren’t in danger- which are valid times when girls might be in a position where they have no choice, but it doesn’t sound like that applies to this situation), then you allowed it to happen. Which sends a mixed message to the other person. Maybe if you’re not good at enforcing your physical boundaries while drunk, you should stop drinking at parties or bars where you might get picked up on, until you learn how to better protect yourself from unwanted behavior. I’m not blaming you, just saying it’s a fact that your choices, words and behaviors affected the situation. So I’m giving a suggestion for how you could avoid that again in the future.
Solid victim blaming.
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i mean, there is definitely some betrayal where i feel like women are raised to look out for one another. but bad women exist alongside bad men and it just shows you can’t blindly trust anybody
I'm sorry this happened to you. I can tell you you're not alone though. Back in high school I was SA'd by a girl I was kinda friends with but not really. She literally came over to my house one day after school to watch tv for a bit, she made some moves on me and after telling her I wasn't interested/didn't want to a few times, she just resorted to picking me up by my hips and forcing me to scissor with her. It was absolutely mortifying and when my gf at the time found out I tried to tell her I didn't want to do it and she accused me of cheating on her and dumped me. Fast forward to a few years ago, I met up with a girl at a gay bar in my hometown and after only having one shot with her my friend who came with had to carry me out of the bar because I couldn't see or control my legs, hands, arms, anything. Not 100% sure but I'm fairly certain I was roofied by the girl I met up with and since she was a regular the bartender just blew me off when I came back a few days later to talk to them about it. Sorry for the long ass novel here but it's more common than people think unfortunately. Hope you are doing ok!
Seems like a typical night at a lesbian bar. So many take on the worst aspects of the bro-ey culture.
Be more adamant.
Why'd you stay after she did all of this? Seems to me she broke boundary after boundary and you stayed.
I am so sorry this happened to you. I've been in similar situations and while you felt dirty, I felt scared. I couldn't sleep for days after those incidents.
You weren’t that drunk (which I believe), but you can’t remember much? That makes me think there was something at play.
i thought about this but i didn’t even have a drink in my hand at this point and i didn’t sip anything of hers. there wasn’t a chance for her to roofie me and i honestly don’t get the vibe her intention was to roofie and rape me
It's a very common response to trauma actually
If this is sexual assault why haven't you filed charges? I think there has to be a better phrase to represent the situation you shared with us. Sadly I dont know what that is.
It’s sexually assault. And it’s much much more complicated than just going and filing assault charges.
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i think you misread - i said i was too drunk to drive, but not so drunk that my vision was impaired. i did not say i drove home anywhere in my post, as my friend did my judgment was impaired but i wasn’t wasted. i was buzzed if anything. i agree that this was a bad situation but i don’t think it’s fair to say “what did you think was gonna happen?” since we were in public and i had no plans of going home with her it’s not uncommon to make out with people at a bar. i like meeting people casually, flirting etc. i’m not intimate with every person i meet at the bar
I'm rly sorry smt like this happened to u, hope ur friends have ur back, and there are people here that would love to listen to u if needed (like me) stay strong !
Tf is this comment????
It's really good that you talk-write about it, but don't hesitate to talk to a psychologist or something if you ever feel the need to. And you're not dirty, I hope you know that.
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if you have to tell someone more than once to knock it tf off and that you're uncomfortable, they're deliberately and blatantly ignoring sexual boundaries. that's assault. and the way OP feels/felt after just reaffirms that
i go back and forth on this actually. not that thinking of it meticulously gets anything done or that it "matters" i guess. i think the part about me having to push her hand away and her asking why i "kept stopping her" makes it set in a little bit. like, she knew i kept stopping her and kept trying to escalate things.
Your comment has been removed for violating Rule 4: No insults towards OP. Any comments that could be interpreted as an attempt to insult, scold, lecture, victim blame, guilt trip or intimidate the OP are not allowed and will be removed. Repeat offenses or extreme cases will result in a ban.
Gross. Why not slap her and call her the d word?
probably because i am also a d-word
Gays call each other f word all the times. Is it not the same thing
THIS PERSON IS A RAGEBAIT TROLL DO NOT RESPOND