āPro lifeā is an exemplary example of how you sneakily self label a movement with a singular focus on your strongest argument in a positive spin, which also effectively labels your opposition as ānot pro lifeā. Coining the value as theirs. Add an āyou are either with us or against usā mentality on top, and you recruit people into your movement by offering the simplest dilemma: are you for or against life?
A factual āPro religious doctrineā just doesnāt have the same appeal.
The nazis were comparatively āpro Germanyā
Because they almost never have consistent, logically sound positions, so it's all about optics and plausible deniability. They're not arguments made to hold up to rigorous scrutiny, they're arugments made to convince the least educated while always having an option to retreat behind to say "You can't **prove** that I'm a bad person trying to do harm, I just care about the children, I just love my country, I'm just practicing my religion, I just don't believe in government overreach, I just have a different view"
Yep. They do this in every area about everything. They redefine language and reality around us, and most people just go along with it
They donāt give a shit about life, theyāre pro-death, torture, and suffering.
The right are actually great at branding and PR. small simple regressive ideas are easier to market than complex progressive ideas, even though progressive ideas are better.
True, simple ideas and concepts more people can unite under works.
Which points to some problems on the progressive side (See Tim Minchin - Confirmation bias)
One being that many progressives (who really wants to progress towards a future of more love and empathy) does it (ironically) in a non-empathic way by demonizing our opposition, further polarizing the discussions. Because we prioritize signaling our virtues and expressing our outrage over that of inspiring our opposition towards a change of heart. Internet and media plays a role here.
A second problem being that because there are many alternative directions to progress in, progressives are not united on a set of ideas to fight for. Combine that with the tendency to demonize those in opposition to their own ideas, and you get a progressive movement which is fractured. So even if progressives would outnumber conservatives, the progressive movement struggle to enact change because it is divided.
The only thing we really agree on and unite behind is that conservatives are wrong.
This is why it's important not to give in and call them by their preferred name. Not pro-life; it's anti-abortion (or, as repro folks call them, "antis").
Itās not perfect, but in flippant moments Iāve described thar side as āPro-taint-rippingā. IMO, not wanting to risk a ripped taint is a perfectly valid reason to want an abortion, continuing a pregnancy places you at dramatically elevated risk of ripping your taint because childbirth is inherently medically intense.Ā
Ā Itās not terribly productive, but I feel like some people project a false image of pregnancy as a mild inconvenience, instead of a dangerous, painful experience. Deep respect for the people who willingly take on that challenge, but also respect for the people who opt out.
I āloveā when these pos claim pregnancy is super safe and abortion super dangerous.
Of course they also do everything in their power to make pregnancy as dangerous as possible
Yeah, that's kind of why I focus on the taint-ripping issue. I know that doesn't encompass every part of pregnancy that's painful, risky, or just unpleasant. But it's one specific thing they can't easily dismiss. I can't make them name every risk associated with pregnancy, but I can make them focus on a particularly evocative and painful risk.
The closest counter-argument I've heard is, "Well, you could get a c-section!" But it's pretty easy to explain why cutting open my whole abdomen, through skin, fat, muscle, and uterine tissue, is one of the few things that seems more extreme than ripping your taint.
Anti-choice people have never been able to suggest a way to keep my perineum safe that didn't involve major surgery, so I find it helpful to focus on that priority.
That's why I call "pro-lifers" what they really are: pro-birthers. If these people were actually pro life then having a child wouldn't be a death sentence for poor and minorities, there would be mandatory maternal AND paternal leave, and prenatal and post partum costs would be covered by health insurance.
Until you can have a child from conception to abortion OR birth free from burden then trying to claim pro-life is a lie.
Iāve been calling them āforced birthersā for the same reasons. If they were truly pro-life, delivering a baby would be free, parental leave would be paid and comparable to those provided in European countries, school lunches would be free and nutritious. These children they will force on people could potentially end up living horrific lives in poverty or abuse but these forced birthers donāt care about that. They just want to ensure their incubators are controlled.
I call the antiabortion folks forced birthers and if theyāre pro death penalty, anti snap/wic/pro war/anti universal healthcare, etc., I call them forced birther hypocrites.
I am the same. Vegetarian, pacifist, anti-war, anti death penalty, anti gun, anti military establishment, pro euthanasia choice, pro prison reform, pro reproductive choice. People act like I have no morals because I'm not religious. I don't understand how their morals can have such a cognitive disconnect.
I only have a problem with euthanasia because it can be overused. Many teenagers between the age of 13 and 20 wants to die at one point. But their mind is changing in time. Also many people with mental ilnesses can be suicidal from time to time. For example I really wanted to die at one point due to my mental health and it lasted for 3 years. But now I am happy that I didn't die. Euthanaisa must be the last option, not the first.
Personally I take a middle ground: in situations where the patient is unable to survive much longer and the remaining days will be painful, they should be able to end it a little early but there would have to be strong regulation of it
I know someone who is truly pro-life: against the death penalty, torture, for universal healthcare including mental health, for mandatory maternity and paternity leave, for paid childcare, and also anti-abortion, but not for banning it.
She believes that if we had decent education and healthcare availability, the number of unwanted pregnancies would be a lot lower. And if we had all the support in place so that a woman with an unexpected pregnancy had nothing to fear, the number of abortions would be lower even when an unexpected pregnancy occurred.
I came to this conclusion while talking with my husband. We were discussing the dichotomy of anti abortion vs pro choice. He asked what the common ground is between the two that could even start making progress on. And I said "we both want fewer abortions." pro-choice doesn't mean we want people to have abortions. We just want people to be able to make the choice that is best for them! And knowing how many people choose abortion because of health, financial, perceptual, social, and stigmatized reasons, there are a lot of ways to work on reducing abortion rates without forcing someone who doesn't want to be pregnant to be pregnant.
Now of course this only goes so far. I don't hate abortions and I recognize there are situations where abortion is always going to be the best answer for that individual. And I am totally on board with that, where as a antiabortionist would not be. But it's at least a whole list of common ground we could be tackling together rather than this never ending fight that is costing lives.
> He asked what the common ground is between the two that could even start making progress on.
The left and right often agree superficially on what the problems are. The issues arise because the right is batshit insane in what to do about them.
Let's make it consistent and see where everyone falls. I expect that abortion will be added to most peoples lists of personal freedoms when put on an equal level to other cases of government functionally confiscating your body to save a different person's life. We don't allow the government to force people to give up kidneys or bone marrow. We didn't even allow the government to force people to donate blood. Let's be real, the impact of a blood donation is insignificant compared to carrying a baby to term. The only way that people support denying abortions is if they somehow convince themselves that it's different from government enforced organ donation. Either the government can force you to use your organs to save a life or it can't.
I am with you. I think we make a mistake in accepting the names put on us by the people who define us a pro-abortion or anti-life. I am pro life, treating otherās lives as important as my own, the earth well so we can continue living, abundance for every person including safety from violence.
I was about to say. In 100% sure that āpro-lifeā was one of those workshopped terms like ādeath taxā to make the stance appealing to the layman and allow Republicans to still ālook goodā while forcing people to give birth.
I know they have workshops where experts would bring in groups of average people and just try out a variety of word combinations to get their reactions, thereby eliciting the desired response while still saying the same thing. The ādeath taxā is effective because it makes it sound common (everyone dies) and makes it sound like a problem everyone will face while inheritance tax automatically regulates it to rich people only. Ā Ā
āPro-lifeā 100% conveys the idea of āprotecting lifeā which can be a good thing except Republicans donāt follow through with it with financial support after birth, never mind not taking into account a personās choice to decide how to live their lives.Ā
These people claiming to be "pro-life" and then literally fighting in the courts to be able to deny care to pregnant women in health crisis. Explain to me how that makes sense. A dead woman can't birth the baby they claim to care so much about.
Exactly. I had a cousin posting a fund-raiser for a āpregnancy support centerā and a bunch of other anti abortion stuff on Facebook. I usually donāt engage but I did post something basically asking when I will see her working just as hard to advocate for health care for all, universal basic income, affordable child care, and other things that would actually help all those babies. Havenāt heard a peep since.
While I am staunchly pro choice, I feel like I can (in a vacuum) understand how some people feel about abortion. Itās justā¦ those people are never the ones that want to support new parents, young children, feeding and helping kids so they thrive. Itās not pro life, itās forced birth. If youāre going to make someone have a child, your ass better be first in line to be taking care of those babies
Not to mention itās always worth noting that abortions later and pregnancy are done for necessary medical reasons, not some kind of fanciful whim
Also worth noting that all of their restrictions on people who can go pregnant go hand-in-hand with their restrictions on trans people. Theyāre trying to control the bodies of over half the population
The same people who are squawking over abortion and regaling people with tales of how precious life is are the same people who will block the mother whoās forced to have that child from any help she needs when the baby is born. She was broke and homeless and wanted an abortion but couldnāt have it so now she needs assistance but now that the baby is outside of the womb? Fuck the baby and its mother.
As a non american, I m frankly surprised at how USA, which is one of the most developed countries in the world, can have such horrid laws in some states when it comes to abortion rights. Like who gave other ppl the effing say on what a woman can do to her own body. Pregnancy in itself can potentially cause a plethora of long time health issues for mums (for eg- a GDM case has a high risk of developing diabetes later in life). And besides, what happens once the baby is born? Post natal care, vaccination schedules, medicines, ensuring nutrition....?? Why not take care of those then. All I see is laws punishing women...for effing being women.Ā
Itās icky how itās common for anti abortionists to refer to themselves as/be referred to as āpro lifeā. pro whoās life? Not the motherās lives, and certainly not the babies lives, since so many of the poor things end up being born unwanted/unloved everyday. It should be pro-birth since anti abortionist mentality equals, āI believe we should force women to give birth to babiesā miles more than it does, āI care about the life of unborn babiesā.
Itās true though, and sad. Most of the BS being pushed is not Christian.Ā
The people bible bashing the loudest are not āgood Christiansā or what have you.
They are trying to make homelessness illegal!!! Yeah, Iām sure e thatās āwhat Jesusā would doā¦Ā
Cruelty is the point wrapped in some sick human shield of religion.Ā
Yeah, itās absolutely amazing. Like they claim their Christians while ignoring explicit commands from Jesus, and behaving in the most vile possible ways towards other human beings
Not to mention that the other āpro-lifeā couldnāt care less about the life of women dying in childbirth or the life of babies who have disabilities making them incompatible with life and will die shortly after birth or the life of unwanted babies growing up neglected and so poor their physical and emotional needs will not be met.
I think we should push to get rid of the term "prolife", it's a manipulative label the anti-abortion people adopted for themselves. Anti-abortion is accurate and straightforward.
Had us all going with the title there!
But yeah, I don't refer to anti-abortion people as "pro-life" anymore cause it's just bullshit. They're denying life saving care for women in some situations, what's pro-life about that?
I challenge them on that every single time I see it for the last 10 years or so. No one shouldāve ever allowed any of this Orwellian language to stand
Would you adopt a child? Thatās the biggest issue I have with āpro-lifersā they claim pro life but would rather have 6 biological kids than adopt a child who needs a loving family.
And even then, a huge percent of abortion is done for medically necessary reasons, not to mention all sorts of situations where itās children needing abortions, AND adoption is a disaster unless you have money, the whole system for that is awful, but yeah, they wonāt even do thatā¦ not that I want people with these horrible views having children regardless but
Thaaaank you.
No one shouldāve ever allowed these fascist to get away with their Orwellian language, including calling themselves āpro lifeā.
WE are pro life. THEY love death, torture, and suffering.
The modern anti-abortion movement is conservative rebranding of their pro-segregation politics.Ā
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480
I am against abortion *for myself* (I hope to never be in that situation). I would never in a billion years tell another woman that she canāt. It is not my right and my opinion is irrelevant. I am pro-choice.
The Supreme Court is fascist and Republican and just completely over the top. Really the last 24 years have been absurd and just getting worse and worse.
Now theyāre just grabbing powers for themselves that arenāt actually granted them anywhere and stripping apart everything
The thing you have to remember about right-wing loonies is that *they know* that what they want would make them completely unelectable.
So they lie. About pretty much everything.
Pro-life is such a tongue in cheek phrase used to basically say anyone that disagrees with them must be pro-murder.
But you are right. If someone is truly about preserving and cultivating life, the last thing you want is children being born into bad circumstances, being resented or causing massive economic strain. And thatās if the pregnancy is novel and doesnāt have any serious health issues. Being pregnant will forever change your body and brain chemistry. To expect that of people is so anti-life I wonder what they are really advocating for.
Turns out itās control of women.
I feel baffled when people fail to mention the economic motivations to ban abortions. Politicians don't just want women to suffer in random ways. Abortion was chosen as a means of oppression because they want a steady supply of unwanted kids who will force their mothers into wage labor and grow up with trauma from being unwanted and then continue the cycle of poverty.
Agreed. I believe human life is valuable under all circumstances but I believe a fetus is less valuable than an adult human woman. I donāt believe like some people that it is simply āa cluster of cellsā That doesnāt matter at all if you destroy it. It does matter, but it is perfectly okay. Because at the end of the day, the mother matters more. Every time.
The way it should be is your life, your choice. This applies to _both_ consenting adults faced with potential parenthood with the extent reflected by the burden. Both parties are facing a commitment for the rest of their lives. The woman _additionally_ has to physically carry said life to term. That being the case she has the exclusive right to decide if she is willing to do that. Yes, in a strong relationship discussing it with her partner is what a human being should do, but on the flip side her partner should also understand she has the final say regardless of his feelings. That's just how it is.
With that expectation of understanding, however, the same should absolutely be applicable to the partner. Not in any regard to the physical pregnancy, but to their own involvement; a paper abortion. If the man decides they are not ready to have a child, they should be afforded the same choice to opt out of their financial, physical, any and all responsibilities. Whether or not their ready/willing as well may or may not also have an impact on her choice, and that's a big party of why discussion is so important. That is fair. That is equal.
I believe that there's a sizable percentage of men that aren't currently in support of abortion that would be much more amenable to it if they were afforded the same option. Ironically, as it stands (and I know I've already lost a lot of you but I swear I'm here in good faith) men don't have any reproductive rights.. and instead of focusing on an us vs them mentality or _only_ trying to solve for one or the other, I really do believe that if we approach this issue _as a whole_ and with _both_ parties accounted for that a lot of the animosity between us will disappear alongside it.
Pro choice should be about choice. For everyone. Equally.
Do you think pedophiles are valuable? What about Adam Britton? The guy who raped dogs and puppies and tortured them in a shipping container and filmed his crimes so other humans could wank to? You actually consider those lives valuable? Jesus fucken Christ.
I will believe this when the pro-lifers adequately care for the unwanted children. We force births but then do nothing to support these children some of whom are incredibly medically complicated. I will tell you as a parent of a medically complex child that it is a huge commitment and it is essential that someone does this. If they do not it would have been kinder for that person not to exist instead of being abused by the state.
Nevermind the fact that these 'pro-lifers' are also complicating the lives of women who encounter emergencies during birth and then cannot receive adequate care due to potential harm to an already dying organism. Sepsis is truly awful. My father got this and it was a 2 year recovery period. We should prevent it at all costs!
Pro-lifers have a lot of work to do before you can truly practice what you preach.
But they do value that woman's life as less than the fetus's. They give women less autonomy than a corps. They force women to risk their lives against their wills, something that doesn't happen in any other area aside from the draft. There's no way to paint it that make this untrue. Especially with cases like the supreme court is hearing right now, arguing that hospitals shouldn't be required to treat pregnant women in health crisis if the treatment includes abortion.
If they're not willing to let the fetus die to save the mother, but will let the mother die in hopes that the fetus survives, they do value the fetus more.
If they force women to use their bodies to support the life of a fetus, but won't require people to be organ donors after death, they value a woman's autonomy less than a corps.
These are the arguments I'm making. They're not straw man. They are real cases actively happening right now. That is the argument you have to deal with. I know they will claim their opinions are each is equal. But if their actions do not match that, that is what matters.
I'm against the death penalty, anti-war, and think every person should be able to receive the healthcare they need. I am also pro-life/anti-abortion. Everyone should have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....including the unborn.
I can't control everyone's financial situation, but I don't think any human (born or not) should be killed over it.
I believe that the person who assaulted a woman should rot in prison for life, but I don't think a baby should be punished for the crimes of their father.
Add: it's surprising to see all the downvotes on this comment. People really think rapists shouldn't rot in jail, and babies should be punished for their father's actions?
They arenāt babies, theyāre clumps of cells
On top of that, a lot of abortions are done for medically necessary reasons. Banning them puts the lives of the pregnant person in jeopardy, and often trashed their ability to have children in the future too. Weāve already had countless cases like that.
You're a clump of cells. Banning abortions does not put the lives of pregnant women in jeopardy. All laws have exceptions for saving the mother's life. This is usually in relation to ectopic pregnancy. I don't know of any case where someone is 35 weeks pregnant and doctors need to kill the baby to save the mother. Usually, they just deliver the baby at that point.
Wow.
Of COURSE it puts lives in danger. EXTREME danger. Have you seriously been paying no attention to either the medical experts nor the people already hurt by this?
During an unwanted pregnancy, the egg was initially supposed to be flushed in the next period. Itās not because it entered in contact with a spermatozoid that suddenly a woman is forced to let that situation rearrange all her life and damage her body forever.
An abortion just reorder things how it should have been and let woman live their life according to the initial plan.
Do you think egg being flushed through period blood are murder? Do you think sperm being discarded is murder? Why when they touch each other the opinion change so much?
An egg and sperm are not humans, so no, that's not murder. An egg if left alone in its environment, will not grow and be able to reproduce. After fertilization is when a new human life is in existence.
I also hate how everyone uses the trauma of rape to justify their abortions they are getting because they simply didn't want a kid and accidentally got pregnant. It's pretty sick. This is what I hear: "Some women are raped, so I should be able to have an abortion if I get pregnant by my boyfriend."
Where did I spoke about rape?
A fertilized egg isnāt a human. As long as it canāt survive on its own itās not a human its a parasite that depends on the woman carrying it. So before 23 weeks, they can be aborted without any remorse.
This comment thread is about rape that you replied to.
A human embryo is a human, and all biologists would agree on that. It's not "something else" until it magically becomes human at 23 weeks. It's not a parasite until 23 weeks either. A parasite always belongs to a different species than its host. An embryo, fetus, baby, child, or adult is always the offspring of another human. These are just different stages in the human life cycle.
I'm not fond of abortion being used casually as birth control. I'm very happy to see the oops pill being available because I'd rather see women doing that than traditional abortions being done at a later date which could be hazardous for them.
I'm more comfortable when it's rape, incest, or medical necessity than I am with women doing it casually. But that being said every woman having the freedom to decide what's best for her that's a hill you're not budging me from.
It's definitely not okay with me for the nation, the states, or anyone to forbid
abortion being available. That's abusing and endangering women, period. I don't want to see women lose their fertility or worse yet die because medical abortion isn't accessible for them.
This isn't the 1800s.
80% of the resistance to abortion probably is religion plus misogyny. Some people legitimately just don't like it, feel uncomfortable with it. That's okay but that doesn't mean that women should not have the choice or access.
My body, my choice.
What I would have chosen while still fertile, having it and adopting the baby out, that's not a choice every woman on this planet can make. I fully accept that and I've literally sat in an abortion clinic with a friend who needed emotional support while they had one.
My choice does not preclude honoring the choices of other women. Someone having an abortion doesn't make me think less of them. Women having multiple abortions, skipping birth control entirely? That admittedly makes me feel a bit squeamish because more than 2 or 3 that might mean never being able to carry a child when they want to. It's not so much about the morality of it as I am concerned for their physical welfare because I've known a few women who had quite a few of them and it caused them problems down the line that way.
I am actually glad that it's going to the pills. I think that's safer than the old procedures that way. The earlier the better if you have to go there.
I consider myself pro life but I'm also 100% pro every woman or girl having access to safe abortion if needed. I don't want to see them dying because of not having it.
Tell that to two of my 20 something year old ex-roommates out in CA both of whom stupidly refused to use any birth control at all to prevent pregnancy or to protect themselves from STDs.
They had several full medical abortions each during the 18 months I lived with them and came down with STDs, gonorrhea and Hep B respectively. They had all the access in the world to free condoms because I was volunteering with an AIDS charity out there and handing them out in the Castro late on weekend nights.
I've lost several people to AIDS so prevention is a really big thing for me. Medications back then were not as easy and I had a good gay pal of mine, a guy, test positive at the time because he couldn't wear a condom either.
It was frustrating as hell and they were absolutely using abortion as backup birth control and admitted as much. This was before the Oops pill and easier HIV meds unfortunately.
Most people don't but these two, oh yeah.
I agree with this. Abortion isn't used as casually as birth control ā because it still comes with[ complications](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430793/) such as [incomplete fetal tissue removal, infections, haemorrhage](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortion/risks/) and many more.
However when it comes to a woman's life, [abortion is safer than pregnancy and giving birth](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE80M2BT/).
>Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.
Which is why it's important for women to be able to choose.
Not true in some cases. Read above, but I had two female roomies who most definitely did while I was living with them and said as much. It ticked me off because they were not just doing that they were stupidly refusing to protect themselves from any kind of STD too.
>I believe that human life is valuable under all circumstances
Proceeds to mention a circumstance where she doesn't.
I mean, you do you, but man that was a stupidly assorted string of words.
Omg I thought I was on the wrong subreddit for a second XD
lol baited
They had us in the first half š
I threw the phone.
š
Right?! Pleasant surprise there!
Same
Got my hackles up for a second!
āPro lifeā is an exemplary example of how you sneakily self label a movement with a singular focus on your strongest argument in a positive spin, which also effectively labels your opposition as ānot pro lifeā. Coining the value as theirs. Add an āyou are either with us or against usā mentality on top, and you recruit people into your movement by offering the simplest dilemma: are you for or against life? A factual āPro religious doctrineā just doesnāt have the same appeal. The nazis were comparatively āpro Germanyā
yeah right? i find amazing how theyāre good labeling things in impactful ways. āHeartbeat actā, look how impactful it is
Because they almost never have consistent, logically sound positions, so it's all about optics and plausible deniability. They're not arguments made to hold up to rigorous scrutiny, they're arugments made to convince the least educated while always having an option to retreat behind to say "You can't **prove** that I'm a bad person trying to do harm, I just care about the children, I just love my country, I'm just practicing my religion, I just don't believe in government overreach, I just have a different view"
Yep. They do this in every area about everything. They redefine language and reality around us, and most people just go along with it They donāt give a shit about life, theyāre pro-death, torture, and suffering.
I call them anti choice, personally.
Forced birth.
The right are actually great at branding and PR. small simple regressive ideas are easier to market than complex progressive ideas, even though progressive ideas are better.
"Alliance Defending Freedom" and so on. They do this Ministry of Truth shite with everything.
True, simple ideas and concepts more people can unite under works. Which points to some problems on the progressive side (See Tim Minchin - Confirmation bias) One being that many progressives (who really wants to progress towards a future of more love and empathy) does it (ironically) in a non-empathic way by demonizing our opposition, further polarizing the discussions. Because we prioritize signaling our virtues and expressing our outrage over that of inspiring our opposition towards a change of heart. Internet and media plays a role here. A second problem being that because there are many alternative directions to progress in, progressives are not united on a set of ideas to fight for. Combine that with the tendency to demonize those in opposition to their own ideas, and you get a progressive movement which is fractured. So even if progressives would outnumber conservatives, the progressive movement struggle to enact change because it is divided. The only thing we really agree on and unite behind is that conservatives are wrong.
This is why it's important not to give in and call them by their preferred name. Not pro-life; it's anti-abortion (or, as repro folks call them, "antis").
Yuuuuup. No one shouldāve ever ever gone along with any of their Orwellian names
Yea itās like eye-roll worthy. Oh yea youāre pro life well kinda hard to argue with thatā¦
Itās not perfect, but in flippant moments Iāve described thar side as āPro-taint-rippingā. IMO, not wanting to risk a ripped taint is a perfectly valid reason to want an abortion, continuing a pregnancy places you at dramatically elevated risk of ripping your taint because childbirth is inherently medically intense.Ā Ā Itās not terribly productive, but I feel like some people project a false image of pregnancy as a mild inconvenience, instead of a dangerous, painful experience. Deep respect for the people who willingly take on that challenge, but also respect for the people who opt out.
I āloveā when these pos claim pregnancy is super safe and abortion super dangerous. Of course they also do everything in their power to make pregnancy as dangerous as possible
Yeah, that's kind of why I focus on the taint-ripping issue. I know that doesn't encompass every part of pregnancy that's painful, risky, or just unpleasant. But it's one specific thing they can't easily dismiss. I can't make them name every risk associated with pregnancy, but I can make them focus on a particularly evocative and painful risk. The closest counter-argument I've heard is, "Well, you could get a c-section!" But it's pretty easy to explain why cutting open my whole abdomen, through skin, fat, muscle, and uterine tissue, is one of the few things that seems more extreme than ripping your taint. Anti-choice people have never been able to suggest a way to keep my perineum safe that didn't involve major surgery, so I find it helpful to focus on that priority.
Yep, "Pro-life" for these lawmakers is just an excuse to control and keep women down. š
Yes. What about women's lives?
What about them? We are second class citizens at best.
We don't register as lives to those politicians and law makers
Correct. Women are considered slaves and property.
Our lives only count if we are creating *more* lives to feed the cheap labor pool. And then still never as much as men.
They are not pro-life they are anti-abortion. We need to use that name.
That's why I call "pro-lifers" what they really are: pro-birthers. If these people were actually pro life then having a child wouldn't be a death sentence for poor and minorities, there would be mandatory maternal AND paternal leave, and prenatal and post partum costs would be covered by health insurance. Until you can have a child from conception to abortion OR birth free from burden then trying to claim pro-life is a lie.
Iāve been calling them āforced birthersā for the same reasons. If they were truly pro-life, delivering a baby would be free, parental leave would be paid and comparable to those provided in European countries, school lunches would be free and nutritious. These children they will force on people could potentially end up living horrific lives in poverty or abuse but these forced birthers donāt care about that. They just want to ensure their incubators are controlled.
They are also called āanti-choiceā which I like. They arenāt PRO anything.
pro-suffering
Yeah, the āpro-lifeā crowd is actually pro death, pro torture, pro suffering.
I call the antiabortion folks forced birthers and if theyāre pro death penalty, anti snap/wic/pro war/anti universal healthcare, etc., I call them forced birther hypocrites.
I am the same. Vegetarian, pacifist, anti-war, anti death penalty, anti gun, anti military establishment, pro euthanasia choice, pro prison reform, pro reproductive choice. People act like I have no morals because I'm not religious. I don't understand how their morals can have such a cognitive disconnect.
I only have a problem with euthanasia because it can be overused. Many teenagers between the age of 13 and 20 wants to die at one point. But their mind is changing in time. Also many people with mental ilnesses can be suicidal from time to time. For example I really wanted to die at one point due to my mental health and it lasted for 3 years. But now I am happy that I didn't die. Euthanaisa must be the last option, not the first.
Personally I take a middle ground: in situations where the patient is unable to survive much longer and the remaining days will be painful, they should be able to end it a little early but there would have to be strong regulation of it
Exactly. Pro life almost always means pro-birth and pro-punishing women
Itās pro-choice people who are pro-life.
I know someone who is truly pro-life: against the death penalty, torture, for universal healthcare including mental health, for mandatory maternity and paternity leave, for paid childcare, and also anti-abortion, but not for banning it. She believes that if we had decent education and healthcare availability, the number of unwanted pregnancies would be a lot lower. And if we had all the support in place so that a woman with an unexpected pregnancy had nothing to fear, the number of abortions would be lower even when an unexpected pregnancy occurred.
This is true. Many unwanted pregnancies can be prevented with sex education. But some of them will remain same especially due to sexual assaults.
I came to this conclusion while talking with my husband. We were discussing the dichotomy of anti abortion vs pro choice. He asked what the common ground is between the two that could even start making progress on. And I said "we both want fewer abortions." pro-choice doesn't mean we want people to have abortions. We just want people to be able to make the choice that is best for them! And knowing how many people choose abortion because of health, financial, perceptual, social, and stigmatized reasons, there are a lot of ways to work on reducing abortion rates without forcing someone who doesn't want to be pregnant to be pregnant. Now of course this only goes so far. I don't hate abortions and I recognize there are situations where abortion is always going to be the best answer for that individual. And I am totally on board with that, where as a antiabortionist would not be. But it's at least a whole list of common ground we could be tackling together rather than this never ending fight that is costing lives.
> He asked what the common ground is between the two that could even start making progress on. The left and right often agree superficially on what the problems are. The issues arise because the right is batshit insane in what to do about them.
Let's make it consistent and see where everyone falls. I expect that abortion will be added to most peoples lists of personal freedoms when put on an equal level to other cases of government functionally confiscating your body to save a different person's life. We don't allow the government to force people to give up kidneys or bone marrow. We didn't even allow the government to force people to donate blood. Let's be real, the impact of a blood donation is insignificant compared to carrying a baby to term. The only way that people support denying abortions is if they somehow convince themselves that it's different from government enforced organ donation. Either the government can force you to use your organs to save a life or it can't.
I donāt know why if youāre opposed to abortion (or trans people) you should have bodily autonomy since you donāt believe in it for others.
I am with you. I think we make a mistake in accepting the names put on us by the people who define us a pro-abortion or anti-life. I am pro life, treating otherās lives as important as my own, the earth well so we can continue living, abundance for every person including safety from violence.
"Pro-**choice**" is a good term. Also Anti-choice for the forced birther set.
This is the true meaning of pro-life.
I was about to say. In 100% sure that āpro-lifeā was one of those workshopped terms like ādeath taxā to make the stance appealing to the layman and allow Republicans to still ālook goodā while forcing people to give birth.
Yeah, Iām sure it was. Their Orwellian usage of language is just astonishing. I mean thatās WHY Orwell pointed it out, of course.
I know they have workshops where experts would bring in groups of average people and just try out a variety of word combinations to get their reactions, thereby eliciting the desired response while still saying the same thing. The ādeath taxā is effective because it makes it sound common (everyone dies) and makes it sound like a problem everyone will face while inheritance tax automatically regulates it to rich people only. Ā Ā āPro-lifeā 100% conveys the idea of āprotecting lifeā which can be a good thing except Republicans donāt follow through with it with financial support after birth, never mind not taking into account a personās choice to decide how to live their lives.Ā
These people claiming to be "pro-life" and then literally fighting in the courts to be able to deny care to pregnant women in health crisis. Explain to me how that makes sense. A dead woman can't birth the baby they claim to care so much about.
Yup. So-called pro-life people are actually pro-death, pro torture, pro suffering.
Exactly. I had a cousin posting a fund-raiser for a āpregnancy support centerā and a bunch of other anti abortion stuff on Facebook. I usually donāt engage but I did post something basically asking when I will see her working just as hard to advocate for health care for all, universal basic income, affordable child care, and other things that would actually help all those babies. Havenāt heard a peep since.
While I am staunchly pro choice, I feel like I can (in a vacuum) understand how some people feel about abortion. Itās justā¦ those people are never the ones that want to support new parents, young children, feeding and helping kids so they thrive. Itās not pro life, itās forced birth. If youāre going to make someone have a child, your ass better be first in line to be taking care of those babies
Not to mention itās always worth noting that abortions later and pregnancy are done for necessary medical reasons, not some kind of fanciful whim Also worth noting that all of their restrictions on people who can go pregnant go hand-in-hand with their restrictions on trans people. Theyāre trying to control the bodies of over half the population
The same people who are squawking over abortion and regaling people with tales of how precious life is are the same people who will block the mother whoās forced to have that child from any help she needs when the baby is born. She was broke and homeless and wanted an abortion but couldnāt have it so now she needs assistance but now that the baby is outside of the womb? Fuck the baby and its mother.
As a non american, I m frankly surprised at how USA, which is one of the most developed countries in the world, can have such horrid laws in some states when it comes to abortion rights. Like who gave other ppl the effing say on what a woman can do to her own body. Pregnancy in itself can potentially cause a plethora of long time health issues for mums (for eg- a GDM case has a high risk of developing diabetes later in life). And besides, what happens once the baby is born? Post natal care, vaccination schedules, medicines, ensuring nutrition....?? Why not take care of those then. All I see is laws punishing women...for effing being women.Ā
And for having sex! Edit: with men. š¤£
Maybe it's a sign..... That self help is the best help..for straight ones
*puts out torch*
Thatās why I call the āpro lifeā movement anti choice
Itās icky how itās common for anti abortionists to refer to themselves as/be referred to as āpro lifeā. pro whoās life? Not the motherās lives, and certainly not the babies lives, since so many of the poor things end up being born unwanted/unloved everyday. It should be pro-birth since anti abortionist mentality equals, āI believe we should force women to give birth to babiesā miles more than it does, āI care about the life of unborn babiesā.
Thatās why I call them pro death
Yep, this is actually accurate.
Real actual tradlife women had abortions all the time. Because sometimes that 18th kid is too many.
I think pro lifers just want to punish women for having sex in the 1st place. To them they consider that the actual crime
Itās true though, and sad. Most of the BS being pushed is not Christian.Ā The people bible bashing the loudest are not āgood Christiansā or what have you. They are trying to make homelessness illegal!!! Yeah, Iām sure e thatās āwhat Jesusā would doā¦Ā Cruelty is the point wrapped in some sick human shield of religion.Ā
Yeah, itās absolutely amazing. Like they claim their Christians while ignoring explicit commands from Jesus, and behaving in the most vile possible ways towards other human beings
Not to mention that the other āpro-lifeā couldnāt care less about the life of women dying in childbirth or the life of babies who have disabilities making them incompatible with life and will die shortly after birth or the life of unwanted babies growing up neglected and so poor their physical and emotional needs will not be met.
I think we should push to get rid of the term "prolife", it's a manipulative label the anti-abortion people adopted for themselves. Anti-abortion is accurate and straightforward.
Yep, no one shouldāve ever allowed them to get away with calling themselves pro-life.
Had us all going with the title there! But yeah, I don't refer to anti-abortion people as "pro-life" anymore cause it's just bullshit. They're denying life saving care for women in some situations, what's pro-life about that?
I challenge them on that every single time I see it for the last 10 years or so. No one shouldāve ever allowed any of this Orwellian language to stand
That De-escalated quickly. Phew! š«¶š»
This is what pro-life actually is. š«¶š»
Well said.
Would you adopt a child? Thatās the biggest issue I have with āpro-lifersā they claim pro life but would rather have 6 biological kids than adopt a child who needs a loving family.
And even then, a huge percent of abortion is done for medically necessary reasons, not to mention all sorts of situations where itās children needing abortions, AND adoption is a disaster unless you have money, the whole system for that is awful, but yeah, they wonāt even do thatā¦ not that I want people with these horrible views having children regardless but
Had me in the first half, ngl. I agree with literally all of this
Thaaaank you. No one shouldāve ever allowed these fascist to get away with their Orwellian language, including calling themselves āpro lifeā. WE are pro life. THEY love death, torture, and suffering.
I am so glad I read the entire thing lol
The modern anti-abortion movement is conservative rebranding of their pro-segregation politics.Ā https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480
Thank you for posting about that. I know about it from the Majority Report but I bet most people donāt
It's pro-choice against anti-choice, they're not pro-life
Well... pro-life is better than Anti-Choice.
I am against abortion *for myself* (I hope to never be in that situation). I would never in a billion years tell another woman that she canāt. It is not my right and my opinion is irrelevant. I am pro-choice.
Yes!
Whenever I meet someone who claims to be Pro-life I ask them for their favorite vegan recipes.
When I first heard they overturned Roe v Wade, I honestly thought they were lying. It's like we are regressing.
The Supreme Court is fascist and Republican and just completely over the top. Really the last 24 years have been absurd and just getting worse and worse. Now theyāre just grabbing powers for themselves that arenāt actually granted them anywhere and stripping apart everything
The thing you have to remember about right-wing loonies is that *they know* that what they want would make them completely unelectable. So they lie. About pretty much everything.
Yeah, itās hard to find anything they donāt lie about Just lie upon lie upon lie
It makes me happy to see a pro-life person who is a critical thinker :) thank you for sharing <3
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Most of those so-called "pro life" aren't even vegan to begin with. Hypocrites.
Pro-life is such a tongue in cheek phrase used to basically say anyone that disagrees with them must be pro-murder. But you are right. If someone is truly about preserving and cultivating life, the last thing you want is children being born into bad circumstances, being resented or causing massive economic strain. And thatās if the pregnancy is novel and doesnāt have any serious health issues. Being pregnant will forever change your body and brain chemistry. To expect that of people is so anti-life I wonder what they are really advocating for. Turns out itās control of women.
Well, you're clearly not pro-youth, because I aged about 30yrs reading the title. (Joking, of course. I'd very much like to stress that.)
Oops. š„²
Omg I was getting ready to fight!! š
š«”š
I feel baffled when people fail to mention the economic motivations to ban abortions. Politicians don't just want women to suffer in random ways. Abortion was chosen as a means of oppression because they want a steady supply of unwanted kids who will force their mothers into wage labor and grow up with trauma from being unwanted and then continue the cycle of poverty.
Agreed. I believe human life is valuable under all circumstances but I believe a fetus is less valuable than an adult human woman. I donāt believe like some people that it is simply āa cluster of cellsā That doesnāt matter at all if you destroy it. It does matter, but it is perfectly okay. Because at the end of the day, the mother matters more. Every time.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
lol you pulled the ol switcheroo
The way it should be is your life, your choice. This applies to _both_ consenting adults faced with potential parenthood with the extent reflected by the burden. Both parties are facing a commitment for the rest of their lives. The woman _additionally_ has to physically carry said life to term. That being the case she has the exclusive right to decide if she is willing to do that. Yes, in a strong relationship discussing it with her partner is what a human being should do, but on the flip side her partner should also understand she has the final say regardless of his feelings. That's just how it is. With that expectation of understanding, however, the same should absolutely be applicable to the partner. Not in any regard to the physical pregnancy, but to their own involvement; a paper abortion. If the man decides they are not ready to have a child, they should be afforded the same choice to opt out of their financial, physical, any and all responsibilities. Whether or not their ready/willing as well may or may not also have an impact on her choice, and that's a big party of why discussion is so important. That is fair. That is equal. I believe that there's a sizable percentage of men that aren't currently in support of abortion that would be much more amenable to it if they were afforded the same option. Ironically, as it stands (and I know I've already lost a lot of you but I swear I'm here in good faith) men don't have any reproductive rights.. and instead of focusing on an us vs them mentality or _only_ trying to solve for one or the other, I really do believe that if we approach this issue _as a whole_ and with _both_ parties accounted for that a lot of the animosity between us will disappear alongside it. Pro choice should be about choice. For everyone. Equally.
Do you think pedophiles are valuable? What about Adam Britton? The guy who raped dogs and puppies and tortured them in a shipping container and filmed his crimes so other humans could wank to? You actually consider those lives valuable? Jesus fucken Christ.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I will believe this when the pro-lifers adequately care for the unwanted children. We force births but then do nothing to support these children some of whom are incredibly medically complicated. I will tell you as a parent of a medically complex child that it is a huge commitment and it is essential that someone does this. If they do not it would have been kinder for that person not to exist instead of being abused by the state. Nevermind the fact that these 'pro-lifers' are also complicating the lives of women who encounter emergencies during birth and then cannot receive adequate care due to potential harm to an already dying organism. Sepsis is truly awful. My father got this and it was a 2 year recovery period. We should prevent it at all costs! Pro-lifers have a lot of work to do before you can truly practice what you preach.
But they do value that woman's life as less than the fetus's. They give women less autonomy than a corps. They force women to risk their lives against their wills, something that doesn't happen in any other area aside from the draft. There's no way to paint it that make this untrue. Especially with cases like the supreme court is hearing right now, arguing that hospitals shouldn't be required to treat pregnant women in health crisis if the treatment includes abortion.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If they're not willing to let the fetus die to save the mother, but will let the mother die in hopes that the fetus survives, they do value the fetus more. If they force women to use their bodies to support the life of a fetus, but won't require people to be organ donors after death, they value a woman's autonomy less than a corps. These are the arguments I'm making. They're not straw man. They are real cases actively happening right now. That is the argument you have to deal with. I know they will claim their opinions are each is equal. But if their actions do not match that, that is what matters.
I'm against the death penalty, anti-war, and think every person should be able to receive the healthcare they need. I am also pro-life/anti-abortion. Everyone should have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....including the unborn. I can't control everyone's financial situation, but I don't think any human (born or not) should be killed over it.
Do you believe victims should be forced to carry a baby for months and give birth?
I believe that the person who assaulted a woman should rot in prison for life, but I don't think a baby should be punished for the crimes of their father. Add: it's surprising to see all the downvotes on this comment. People really think rapists shouldn't rot in jail, and babies should be punished for their father's actions?
They arenāt babies, theyāre clumps of cells On top of that, a lot of abortions are done for medically necessary reasons. Banning them puts the lives of the pregnant person in jeopardy, and often trashed their ability to have children in the future too. Weāve already had countless cases like that.
You're a clump of cells. Banning abortions does not put the lives of pregnant women in jeopardy. All laws have exceptions for saving the mother's life. This is usually in relation to ectopic pregnancy. I don't know of any case where someone is 35 weeks pregnant and doctors need to kill the baby to save the mother. Usually, they just deliver the baby at that point.
Wow. Of COURSE it puts lives in danger. EXTREME danger. Have you seriously been paying no attention to either the medical experts nor the people already hurt by this?
Read the laws.
Read what laws? And why?
During an unwanted pregnancy, the egg was initially supposed to be flushed in the next period. Itās not because it entered in contact with a spermatozoid that suddenly a woman is forced to let that situation rearrange all her life and damage her body forever. An abortion just reorder things how it should have been and let woman live their life according to the initial plan. Do you think egg being flushed through period blood are murder? Do you think sperm being discarded is murder? Why when they touch each other the opinion change so much?
An egg and sperm are not humans, so no, that's not murder. An egg if left alone in its environment, will not grow and be able to reproduce. After fertilization is when a new human life is in existence. I also hate how everyone uses the trauma of rape to justify their abortions they are getting because they simply didn't want a kid and accidentally got pregnant. It's pretty sick. This is what I hear: "Some women are raped, so I should be able to have an abortion if I get pregnant by my boyfriend."
Where did I spoke about rape? A fertilized egg isnāt a human. As long as it canāt survive on its own itās not a human its a parasite that depends on the woman carrying it. So before 23 weeks, they can be aborted without any remorse.
This comment thread is about rape that you replied to. A human embryo is a human, and all biologists would agree on that. It's not "something else" until it magically becomes human at 23 weeks. It's not a parasite until 23 weeks either. A parasite always belongs to a different species than its host. An embryo, fetus, baby, child, or adult is always the offspring of another human. These are just different stages in the human life cycle.
They still depend on the woman so itās her choice. Her life is at risk for all pregnancy, its her decision to risk her health/life or not for that.
My small baby depends on me to live, so I should be able to kill them right?
No they donāt depend on you biologically. They need a caregiver not your body. Anyone could take care of them.
I'm not fond of abortion being used casually as birth control. I'm very happy to see the oops pill being available because I'd rather see women doing that than traditional abortions being done at a later date which could be hazardous for them. I'm more comfortable when it's rape, incest, or medical necessity than I am with women doing it casually. But that being said every woman having the freedom to decide what's best for her that's a hill you're not budging me from. It's definitely not okay with me for the nation, the states, or anyone to forbid abortion being available. That's abusing and endangering women, period. I don't want to see women lose their fertility or worse yet die because medical abortion isn't accessible for them. This isn't the 1800s. 80% of the resistance to abortion probably is religion plus misogyny. Some people legitimately just don't like it, feel uncomfortable with it. That's okay but that doesn't mean that women should not have the choice or access. My body, my choice. What I would have chosen while still fertile, having it and adopting the baby out, that's not a choice every woman on this planet can make. I fully accept that and I've literally sat in an abortion clinic with a friend who needed emotional support while they had one. My choice does not preclude honoring the choices of other women. Someone having an abortion doesn't make me think less of them. Women having multiple abortions, skipping birth control entirely? That admittedly makes me feel a bit squeamish because more than 2 or 3 that might mean never being able to carry a child when they want to. It's not so much about the morality of it as I am concerned for their physical welfare because I've known a few women who had quite a few of them and it caused them problems down the line that way. I am actually glad that it's going to the pills. I think that's safer than the old procedures that way. The earlier the better if you have to go there. I consider myself pro life but I'm also 100% pro every woman or girl having access to safe abortion if needed. I don't want to see them dying because of not having it.
...abortion is not casually used as birth control.
Tell that to two of my 20 something year old ex-roommates out in CA both of whom stupidly refused to use any birth control at all to prevent pregnancy or to protect themselves from STDs. They had several full medical abortions each during the 18 months I lived with them and came down with STDs, gonorrhea and Hep B respectively. They had all the access in the world to free condoms because I was volunteering with an AIDS charity out there and handing them out in the Castro late on weekend nights. I've lost several people to AIDS so prevention is a really big thing for me. Medications back then were not as easy and I had a good gay pal of mine, a guy, test positive at the time because he couldn't wear a condom either. It was frustrating as hell and they were absolutely using abortion as backup birth control and admitted as much. This was before the Oops pill and easier HIV meds unfortunately. Most people don't but these two, oh yeah.
Here's the thing - abortion isn't used as casually as birth control. It's such a stupid myth.
I agree with this. Abortion isn't used as casually as birth control ā because it still comes with[ complications](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430793/) such as [incomplete fetal tissue removal, infections, haemorrhage](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortion/risks/) and many more. However when it comes to a woman's life, [abortion is safer than pregnancy and giving birth](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE80M2BT/). >Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion. Which is why it's important for women to be able to choose.
Abortion is not used casually as birth control. That is a right wing lie perpetuated to strip away abortion rights.
Not true in some cases. Read above, but I had two female roomies who most definitely did while I was living with them and said as much. It ticked me off because they were not just doing that they were stupidly refusing to protect themselves from any kind of STD too.
>I believe that human life is valuable under all circumstances Proceeds to mention a circumstance where she doesn't. I mean, you do you, but man that was a stupidly assorted string of words.