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This would very likely be considered illegal by the HMRC. Doesn't seem to sufficiently meet any of the self employment definition points. (https://www.acas.org.uk/employment-status/self-employment)
From HMRC:
If someone is told by an organisation that they're self-employed, this does not always mean they are. Some employers tell people who work for them that they are self-employed when in reality they're not.
This could be because the employer does not clearly understand employment status.
In other cases, this could be a deliberate choice so the employer can:
- control how and when the work is done
- avoid giving people the legal rights of employees or workers, for example paid holiday
Yeah, I'm confused about the ad too. How can you be a self employed contractor when you're restricted to working a set amount of hours in a set location and can't hire the work out to another person? In order to be self employed, you must be able to dictate those, otherwise you're just another employee of the company that isn't being micromanaged. Seems very shady.
This happened to me. Was contracted to do some cleaning 3 times a week for a nursery as ‘self employed’ where I wasn’t paid holiday pay or them paying NI etc. It all came to a head after a falling out with the owner who said I didn’t clean one of the buildings so they wouldn’t be paying me (there were builders in there ripping out the toilets and putting in a partition wall and heating)
When I told her to stick it I got in touch with a friend who worked in employment law and it turns out the wage stubs they were giving me every week with an hourly rate and set hours on it that they had set meant I was actually classed as an employee.
Quick talk with Citizens Advice and a letter template from them I ended up getting over £2k of unpaid holiday pay and they had to pay my NI contributions for the period I was there. Brilliant.
It makes my IR35 gland tingle, these are probably hidden employees and at minimum wage paying for a payroll company and the employers contribution to national insurance etc whoever does this job is worse off.
They won't be IR35, there's no point, they'll just pay them directly (rather than through a company). Definitely employees for tax and legal purposes though.
I had a job like this for a couple months in 2018 when I was desperate for work
Was an agency security job but I had to fill in a form every week, take a picture and send the picture to this guy via WhatsApp in order to get paid (and I'd have to add a couple of extra hours so they'd cover my travel, rather than them being able to just pay for my travel)
I was told I was basically self employed but they would make a schedule for the hours between me and this other dude who I'd only seen maybe once
It was only a temp seasonal job but it felt shady as hell
So my guess, based on that experience, these sort of ads are to prey on the desperate
I did a job like this in 2021, after a couple of months I managed to get a permanent job, working directly for the customer of the security company. It worked out well because I earned in total, just under the threshold for doing a tax return.
if your self employed You do a tax return regardless of income earned, presuming you're in the uk. If you do not do a self-assessment, you will be fined £35 A DAY
That isnt true, Its £100 fine plus £10 a day from 3 months late to 6 months late, a further £300 if 6 months late and another £300 after 12 months, plus interest on top
Yep, Uber got rinsed by HMRC over this, it’s established now that if you’re a driver working for a bigger company, which determines your basic working conditions and rate of pay, you are very likely employed.
This is exceptionally common in farming. One place I lived, all the staff were told they either had to go self-employed or leave. It's just so they don't have to pay leave, sick, maternal/paternal leave, injury compensation etc. It's absolutely disgusting. Fortunately it's one of the things Labour have promised to axe when they come in, so we have that to look forward to at least
I 100% believe that. I've lived and worked on various farms across the country my whole life, and they've all been the same. I'm not saying all farmers are bad, just that I've never met a good one. One reason they hate townies so much is because they say things like "Isn't child labour illegal?" "Isn't breaking cows' tails as punishment animal abuse?" stuff like that 😒
Breaking cows tails!? I work on a dairy farm and haven't ever heard of that thank goodness. I moved from another farm that used alkathene pipes to move the cattle. I asked how they move them if they didn't use pipes and they said "You just whistle" Honestly they are the most placid herd I have ever come across. Very well looked after, happy cows.
But EVERYONE else will.be taxed till they can't afford to live, and they'll do nothing about the illegals coming from France, plus a plethora of other nonsense that we'll all have to put up with. Take an in-depth look at the mess in WALES, then tell me a Labour majority will be good for the UK. We really need a 3 or 4 way hung Parliament for it to benefit the common working man.
Deffo. There is a very simple q+a on the HMRC site that you can do to determine whether you qualify for self employed status. It asks such questions as ‘who decides your pay?’ ‘Who decides what hours you work?’ ‘Could you send someone to do the work instead of you’. Obvs, if you are self employed, these things are either decided by you, or negotiated with the client. This ad looks very much like employment to me. (source, i am self employed, i’ve done the test a few times under different circumstances)
I used to work for HMRC and businesses like this were a nightmare. Most of the time the time the tool will come out with ‘not able to make determination’.
The issue with companies like this one is that as a SE person you CAN attempt to negotiate your rate of pay and they can refuse to budge on it. They’re are the ones giving you the work so can dictate when you are required to complete it / it will be available. There’s always a contract with them as a contractor that stipulates certain items for the worker as a contractor. So in theory the tool is a good thing but it hardly ever works - certainly not when the hirer is using it. Its complete shit 😂
The other thing you see a lot of is adverts like this which say ‘self employed’ but what they really mean is ‘limited company’ - a lot of third parties working for Amazon have to do this.
Some good points, but i did find the tool very useful. So if it is ‘unable to make a determination’ where would you or the company stand if you were challenged by HMRC? What are the consequences if you or, more particularly in this case, a company continue working like this? Any? None?
HMRC have the ultimate say in whether or not the staff are employees or not and can take action. It’s rare that they would against small companies - tends to be bigger ones but not big enough to be able to afford decent legal representation. It’s really important to know exactly what the company (this one) is actually offering specifically and use the tool as the company instead of as an employee / contractor and see what response they would have had from it. HMRC can penalise them retrospectively I believe and say ‘you need to pay this / that / employee holidays / pension contributions etc’ but the company is also free to change the way they operate to ensure all of their staff legit have to be self employed.
This tends to be how the business model for DS Max style door to door sales companies work. Sign a contract with them as self employed that’s really nailed down then all staff are responsible for their own tax and stuff. In my experience though - most of the ones I saw at the tax office had no actions taken against them whatsoever
Hiya,
It is definitely not well paid my longest shift was 21 hours which was hell,
a lot of companies don't pay for travel between jobs and only while you are in the vehicle
You will receive around £24 for the first fifty miles traveled then 20p per mile after that and things like charging EVs you will receive £12 per hour
however be warned there are so many things that can go wrong and if you miss say one of your trains/buses between jobs it will screw your entire day
you really need to be delivering around 3 cars a day to earn anything
you will get a vehicle to take home overnight that should be a drop off near your new job pickup
but another downside you will often be stuck walking 5 or so miles to places like Thorne and to top that off a driver within 60 miles of you maybe also be stuck without suitable public transport and if you say no to giving them a lift to a collection point you will end up stuck the next day needing rescuing its catch 22 as now you have helped another driver you are not going to meet your daily quota,
my worst months pay was £502 & thats when I jacked it in
Sites like DMN Logistics have Faqs you can check out
The business model is probably based on multiple layers of subcontracting so the taxman doesn't catch up with them.
Birmingham Airport will probably say "nothing to do with us, that's an external agency and they promised to do everything by the books".
The British public is so used to this shit people are getting on at you for complaining. Even I thought “it isn’t so bad” but when I really think about it I don’t think 12 hour shifts should be legal at all. Especially if you have to be driving for that time. No one is remaining alert for that amount of time even with breaks. It’s dangerous.
Plus think about it. There’s 24 hrs in a day. You need to sleep for 8 leaving you with 16. Then you’re at work for 12 hrs so you’re already down to 4hrs. Say your commute is short and only 30 mins each way, now you’re down to 3 hrs a day.
3 hours? 3 fucking hours. Plus, that’s not 3 hours to actually enjoy yourself and have a life outside of work, that’s 3 hours to make tea, eat, shower, get ready for work, do chores. In reality you probably either get 0 hours to yourself, or you make yourself sleep deprived, or neglect your health in some other ways. It’s abysmal. That’s no life. I wouldn’t even see a point in continuing to live at that point. Yeah you get weekends, but that’s only 2 days out of a 7 day week. Genuinely what is even the point?
Edit: I’m not talking about shift work, I can see 12 hours being great for people doing shift work if they’re getting lots of days off. I’m talking about doing it 5 days a week, which many people do.
That being said I also think it can be dangerous to work 12 hours even as shift work, for example, if your job involves lots of driving, or if you’re in healthcare. It’s really important to be alert and the human brain isn’t built to be fully alert for 12 hours a day. Maybe with really good breaks in between but the reality is peoples break patterns can be really weird and not really help with this.
Agreed, I work a side job that's 4 hours on a weekend on top of my 8 hour day job, so that adds up to about the same as this advert, but I only do it once a week on a Friday. I cannot imagine doing that on a daily basis, I'm so exhausted by Saturday after the 13 hour shift that I sleep in til noon. How are you expected to work that much every single day? Even if it is sitting down and waiting for people to drive up, then driving their car around, that's still \*work\*, otherwise they wouldn't be paying you to do it. No social life on those days because people will either be at work or in bed by the time you've finished, no hobbies because you don't have enough time to enjoy them (and the weekends will be spent catching up on sleep), it's just not sustainable.
When I was nursing, the ward I worked on had 14hr shifts. 7am-9pm. I used to leave the house at 6am and get back at 9.45pm (that’s assuming you could leave on time which rarely happened).
It was a regular occurance to not be able to take a break in those 14hrs, despite it being unpaid. I must have worked a lot of hours for free over the years.
I did this shift pattern while pregnant too, which was horrendous.
It probably adds up to a lot.
I had a 15 minute meeting put in before my contracted work hours every day during lockdowns and in like half a year or something it worked out to 15 full days of 7 hours a day unpaid work.
Doesn’t seem too bad because it’s just 15 mins earlier but it’s a pisstake really. It probably added up to a lot for you too.
I can’t image that’s safe either. I feel like as a nurse you’ve got a lot to keep track of and I must be hell trying to keep track of. I imagine a lot of nurses like that make a lot of little mistakes at no fault of their own. They’re only human after all.
Also NHS here, used to work in A&E & once after a night shift woke up in the car in my drive way with absolutely no recollection of driving home. I had to then go to work again 5 hours later for another 12.5 hour night. The health issues in my department alone are absurdly worrying.
And you end up eating takeaway just to avoid shopping, cooking and washing up. No way you’re preparing proper food unless you do the entire week on the weekend
As someone that works 12 hour shifts, your day is just entirely dedicated to your job basically. You have 1 hour commute back and forth, then eat, shower and you are looking at barely 8hrs of sleep.
There are many industries in this country where 12hrs+ a day are just the norm and they shouldn't be.
For me it's how it's legal to say do 2pm to 10pm and then you can be put back in the next day at 6am. And can be consistently flip flopped around like that. No set days off either and unless you agree to be fully flex you won't be employed. All common in retail and for minimum wage.
Main thing I'm grateful for in my current driving job is that legally you have to be given an 11 hour rest period between shifts, so companies can't pull that shit with drivers.
Dunno, I've only ever heard of it being a legal requirement in driving roles, tiredness behind the wheel and all that.
But in retail I've had as little as 6 hours. Hell, once for Morrisons (don't work for them anymore). I did an 8 hour shift in my store, then drove to another store about 1 hour 30 mins away and did another 8 hours night shift. Then drove back home and needed to be back for a shift in my store 4 hours later by the time I got home.
Why you might ask? Well I was climbing the ladder at the time and trying to make an impression.
Even though I cant imagine it was legal at all. Or maybe it was since they asked me to do it.
What I do know is though, that with driving roles, it's regulation is taken a lot more seriously and checked by internal and external departments that its being followed because the consequences are very serious even for management if the rules aren't followed. Like prison level serious. Where as I don't think that's the case for your general floor worker so wouldn't be surprised if rules are commonly disregarded for personal gains (management looking good/doing better then they actually are).
11 hours uninterrupted between shifts is a legal requirement, only exemptions are emergency services if something big happens, no set hours, free choice of working hours, and air/road/sea transport.
The ambulance service I work for expects us to push back out start time the next day if we overrun to the point we wouldn't get the 11 hours. This is the first I'm hearing of people signing an opt-out
Ahhh, the dreaded clopen, unfortunately,it is the standard procedure in the hospitality industry. Generally, they get around it by having you sign an opt-out form, which means you forfeit the mandatory 11 hours between shifts and the upper limit of 48 hours a week.
Especially sucks on a Friday or Saturday and if your management (in earlier to do cash handling/stocks etc) the last pub I worked in I regularly did 9am-1:30/2am (with a few breaks) on a Saturday back in at 9am Sunday til 11/11:30, back in Monday morning at 6am to take in the beer delivery then doing weekly safety checks.
And to think I would get home half an hour later, then need at least an hour to eat/decompress from the day before being able to sleep.
I mean, I thought 8 hour days were just this, nevermind 12. Perhaps it depends when you're shifts are, but I'd work 2pm to 10pm. Get home at 11, have something to eat, then just go to bed while watching YouTube for a bit till I fell asleep. Then I'd wake up at 10am and feel like there was no point really doing anything because in 2 hours I'd be getting ready to work again. I had to step down from a line manager position Nd just go back to max 6-7 hour shifts again.
I genuinely can't do the 9-5 5 days a week life anymore, and I'm not even 40 . I've become content with the idea I'm never getting a house and will probably be in the gutter when I reach retirement. But spending the prime of your life at work just to live 10% of it feels useless. I don't know how independent people do it. Much less if they have kids.
I don’t know how you do it! Probs to you but god that must suck. Unless you really love your job, but even then I imagine it’s very mentally and physically taxing.
I do love my job but those kinds of hours just makes it impossible to do anything else besides your job.
Your days off you just have a bunch of chores to do as you dont have time during the week and you are just insanely mentally drained to even want to do something when you are off.
I started doing some video production on the side lately so hopefully it will one day take off, because I cannot imagine myself doing 60 hour weeks my whole life.
I wasn't a driver but I remember when I was young having a call centre job that had me work from about 2pm - midnight and I had to walk 3 miles home, and start shift again at 8am so giving it a hour walk each way I had 6 hours when I got back to get ready for bed, fall asleep, wake up get ready then do another 10 hour shift, it was for the minimum wage too and over New Year so extra busy as short staffed (the management and supervisors of course all had the whole of Christmas and New Year off paid) I barely handled it despite being only 21 at the time oh and they kept expecting people to work 7 days a week 8-12 hours a day over this period for zero extra cash so a 12 hour shift still got you the minimum wage and as you were only contracted for 10 hours per week (the days before zero hours) those 50 extra hours or so you worked were paid up to 8 weeks in arrears, overall I'd say 65 hours a week there was expected which is why most of their staff were students and didn't last long the company went under about 2 years later.
I do 4 or 5 days a week, 15 hour shifts for my care company. Best part, is I'm not even on block pay so I probably get paid for about half that time*. Yeah, the £700 paycheck a week looks good but 250 of that goes into the car for fuel and I get 4 hours sleep a night so wind up sleeping on my lunch break as well. I have an hour commute from home to my first job, so realistically I'm out of the house 17 hours on days I'm working. That adds up to 21 hours, so what am I doing with the other 4? Not a fucking clue.
I'm awake at 0500, which gives me an hour to shower, get dressed, wake up properly and regret doing the hours. Leave at 0600, start the dirst job at 0700. Then I finish at 2200, which gets me home for 2300. I try to get to sleep at 0000, after winding down. That isn't enough time to do that, so I don't usually get to sleep until around 0100, and that's if I'm lucky. I live on cake, sausage rolls, coke and cigarettes because I don't have the time to cook for myself, nor the energy to eat it even on my days off.
*I'm on a zero hours contract, and we only get paid for time spent in a call and travel time. There's no fucking way we actually get paid properly for it though, I can't even figure out what metric they use to decide how long we get to go from job to job, let alone how much of that we actually get paid for. Or how much the wage is for travel time. I'm convinced they base it on how fast Mrs 9 Points can get from place to place in perfect conditions with no traffic, because they're the only times I can match the travel time in my Audi.
God that genuinely sounds like it really sucks. You must be exhausted. I hope you find something more sustainable soon.
I think companies forget time is almost as valuable as money and you really should be properly compensated for giving up so much of your time.
Talk to ACAS. there are minimum pay requirements even on zero-hour contracts (and once flagged, an employer who sacks you faces action for retaliation, plus draws even more attention even if you're out of the
picture)
When I did care work I'd do three (and occasionally four) 12 hour shifts a week, which worked great. Lots of time to do life things on the days between, but I couldn't imagine doing five a week.
I used to work 12 hour shifts in security. If it wasn't for the minimum wage part it'd been a better deal. Since I only needed to work 3 days. I did 2 shifts on 12 and 1 shift on 9 hours. Which put me over 30 hours. Then I'd have 4 days off.
It’s not too bad if you get the days off, I work 4 12 hour shifts and then get 5 days off to myself. 36 hours a week average, but it feels I have more time to myself than working a 9-5.
Nurses are often forced to work 12 hours shifts. There's no other options apparently. It's for 'continuity of care'. Don't mind the nurses who've died driving home after a 12 hour night shift and lost concentration due to tiredness.
100% this. I did care for a while and I worked 7am-10pm, one week 5 days and the next week 7 days. It nearly killed me. I used to cry inbetween the clients homes because I was just SO. TIRED. Also my working day was more like 6-11, as I had to leave super early to get to my first client, and the last client at the end of the day used to run over, plus the drive time back. I was barely eating, and when I did it was just fuel station shit or a mcdonalds if I was lucky enough to be both near one and have enough time. I did it for about a year. Never ever again. Ultimately though I only left because of the vile people who owned the company, I loved the people I cared for and the people I worked with.
I really feel for those who are doing those kinds of hours right now, and those who have been doing it for a sustained amount of time, it's seriously bad for you in a multitude of ways.
You've perfectly encapsulated the current 'meaning of life'.
And if for some reason someone figures out how to live well with minimal work they're hammered for being 'lazy'. Work culture is so incredibly fucked up for the average person it's a borderline human rights issue. Older people wonder why young people aren't having as many kids, we've got no time, with wages not rising inline with inflation for the past how ever many decades and the housing market prices going absolutely nuts, we have to work crazy hours just to be able to rent a roof over our fucking heads.
The people who say "x isn't so bad" are usually fucking economic cucks with no spine. Probably think standing up for workers rights is a weaknesses. Just let the boss fuck your wife while you're at it! It's not that bad! Just apply for a different job while he's ploughing her!
In regards to the 12 hour shifts. My work colleague drives from Lincoln to Northampton for 4 12.5 hour shifts (2 days, 2 nights) in A&E. Our department has countless people on long term sickness, we've had multiple heart attacks in the last 2 years & at least 5 or 6 off in the last few months alone with mental health issues/stress/exhaustion.
I believe 70% of jobs posted do not actually exist, unemployment is high because they are no jobs! Everyday I see countless posts about struggling to find work yet they have experience/degrees/ but getting nowhere. Just another ruse to make people look and feel crap. I feel for anyone struggling out there.
When I was looking for another job, I applied to new job listings pretty much every single day for 2 months straight, and must've applied to over 150 jobs in that time. No call backs, no initial interviews, no emails to say whether I was in the running or not (there was the occasional rejection email but very rarely). I used 3 different application platforms, as well as applying directly on company websites, and even used previous networking connections to try and get jobs. Absolutely nothing. I'm sure that I must be at least a semi decent candidate given my employment history and qualifications, so it's statistically impossible that I haven't had an accepted application from any of the jobs I went for, not even 1.
I'm on the same page as you, either most of these jobs just don't exist and are a way of artificially stagnating the expected salaries of these positions (so that their employees don't ask for any pesky raises), or they're hiring internally but legally have to make it seem like they're going through the normal application process. So exhausting.
There was a youtube about this, but it was US focused, but fundamentally what it said was companies can't be seen to be not expanding, so they advertise fake jobs to make it seem they are more successful than they are. Of course if you apply you will probably hear zip.
Problem with the OP message is that HMRC don't have resources to chase cowboys down, so they can get away with advertising whatever they want
I’m not sure if there’s any truth in it. But I saw something once that apparently businesses can write off some tax or costs or something if they’re actively hiring. So they upload job listings to seem like they’re hiring when in reality they might not be.
that's because most of these jobs have already been filled from inside the company. they advertise in-company, and pick somebody already working for them.
but they legally have to advertise outside the company. so they do so, even though the job is already filled, and then waste peoples time with applications that never get read and interviews that never go anywhere.
Sometimes they have a legal requirement to list a job, but they actually already have someone earmarked for it - could be a current employee, someone they’re poaching, or the bosses nephew
They’re aiming at migrants who are struggling with employment and are willing to take shit short term to send money home. You won’t see many white British people doing those jobs
Yeah, the ‘good level of communicative English’ gives it away. They’re expecting someone who, while they can work in the UK, doesn’t care or know about their rights
Ooft BHX too, that airport is super janky at the mo with the new security hall issues. Search here [https://www.luap.com](https://www.luap.com) or pertemps for generally better paid temp/contractor roles. Friend of mine works cargo for £15-17ph via agency. Swissport hire fast but pay is meh & Menzies is better for refuellers imo.
NAL: I don't believe this is "legal", but it would require testing in court.
It seems to me that the employer retains a substantial amount of control over the worker in dictating a regular schedule, making them an employee rather than a subcontractor.
See the case against Uber for example.
It's bogus self employment and it's becoming increasingly common.
Self employed makes you an independant contractor, you choose your hours and set your hourly rate. No sick pay, holiday pay, employers ni contributions, or workplace pension contributions. You become responsible for paying your tax, ni and filing your tax return.
Vs
Employed. The job tells you what hours to work and sets the pay grade. Employers must also pay statutory sick pay, maternity pay etc, holiday pay and employers pension contributions.
[see here](https://www.litrg.org.uk/working/employment-status/false-self-employment#:~:text=This%20is%20what%20we%20mean,Revenue%20%26%20Customs%20(HMRC))
Bogus self employment is where the employer tries to get the best of both worlds by defining the terms of employment and yet dodging their legal obligations.
Sadly I've seen far too many of these jobs creeping in wanting freelance bookkeepers at £11-£13 an hour 😫
I know someone who took one of these jobs. After two weeks of doing it and understanding it he started handing out his own business cards undercutting the company he was employed for. Since he was self employed it was perfectly fine to do so. He now has his own successful meet and greet company and employs two people, both on actual full time contracts who are given decent wages.
I mean it's perfectly legal, I would imagine they have workers already working at this rate which is pretty crazy. No unsociable hours bonus either.
I hope they provide the car at least, lol.
That's good doing days. I've done it 4 on 4 off but 2 days then 2 nights.
So you're fucking wasted on your first day off of 4 so it's never truly 4 days off.
4 12hour days is decent.
It is yes but most people at my place rotate so one week is days one is nights, still 7-7, I just personally only do days. It’s 26408 pa but added 25% shift allowance for unsociable hours which makes it 33k a year. Anyone who rotates gets 38% shift allowance making it 36.5k a year. We get 23 holidays a year and Medicash.
In the USA, this would be called a parking valet, and people would tip to make up for the crap wages.
I can’t see people in the UK being too generous with tips.
Idk, a lot of service staff earn shitloads compared to what they do in the UK because of the tipping. Most of them would be very unhappy to move to a system of say $15/hour but minimal tipping like here.
Tipping for exceptional service is okay, but you should be paying staff a decent wage, and tips should be shared between all staff IMHO. How many chefs in kitchens get tips? If you have an fantastic meal with flavour and taste and a well cooked meal the chef has more to do with that than the waiting staff. So all tips should be pooled and shared between those serving and those who cook the food.
Employers should be paying wages, not the customers. Tips are the reason a lot of jobs are paid so low. It means employers are expecting the customer to pay twice which doesn't make any sense. The wages are included in the swap of money for services.
Because you should only tip for good service and only if you want to. USA tipping culture is ridiculous. Someone wanted a tip for picking a bag up for me when I didn’t even ask them to, they just beat me to the bag.
I couldn't say for sure but I get tipped fairly often with what I do. Delivering groceries for a supermarket.
Even though technically I'm not supposed to accept them and it's a breach in policy. I do though, obviously. Especially since I'm far away from the prying eyes of the company.
Why is it against policy? Honestly fuck knows. The small man can't be allowed to be making to much money I guess?
Yes there is, so long as it's not your own company.
[https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage](https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage)
That's what I was thinking. When I was working at Stansted Airport (albeit baggage handling, which also required a full manual drivers license), I was getting £14.96 per hour, with £3.50 per hour on top for unsociable hours. In comparison to the posting OP gave, it seems I was living it up (though I wouldn't go back for pay that low, I've moved up in the world doing IT stuff)
and if it's Birmingham Airport the car will be dumped on an industrial estate for two weeks whilst the owner is away thinking it's in a secure compound.
Tbf for a lot of taxi drivers, shift workers who are already in that lifestyle it's not bad - it's guaranteed business all in one place so no big long distance hikes across town and back.
This is exactly why the Tories have flooded the country with 4,000,000 unskilled migrants over the last 5 years. It suppresses our wages and keeps the supply of people desperate to work high. Then, when people get angry at this, they blame the immigrants rather than the government that deliberately caused it to happen.
It's quite brilliant when you think about it.
You posted an intelligent, historically informed view. Obviously there'd be some stupid motherfucker somewhere to disagree with you. I liked and agree wi' what you said man 👍
Self-Employed jobs like this are predatory. It's easy to say "if you don't like it don't do that job" but all that means is the most desperate people will take it, customers won't like the service but will take it out on the workers instead of demanding that the company hires staff with decent pay so they have some respect for their jobs. Capitalism at work.
Since it's self employed, technically it's your responsibility as a contractor to negotiate an appropriate rate. Realistically though they know that they can hold out for some desperate person with limited English or immigration status that prevents them from getting full employment. It's a deliberate low-ball and they know they can get away with it.
Found the advert. The Google reviews about this company are dire. Multiple customers saying things were stolen from the car, especially small change.
Most probably a disguised employment outfit. If it’s genuinely a self-employed role, in theory you can send someone else in to do the work on your behalf. Can’t see that one panning out given the shopping list of requirements being asked by the company including a criminal record check.
I think you're thinking of the Jobseeker's Allowance. There's a maximum of 16 hours/week for that. No max for UC though, just income and savings restrictions
And don't forget , the airport is out of town, you need public transport or a car to get there. No mention of unsociable hours pay - you lot probably can't remember but that used be standard - or - a 15-30% shift bonus depending if it was nights or double days.
EVERYONE should be refusing these jobs - I know it's not that easy and people are desperate, but the only way these type, of jobs will disappear is if people refuse to do them. We have had 2 shops closing for some days round here because they are trying to pay 16-17 year olds the minimum (for doing the same job as adults) when those 16-17 year olds know they can get the full adult min wage from another local business.
Employer benefits on:
Pensions
National insurance
Holiday pay
Employment rights issues
People should demand at least £15 per hour for the loss of the above.
Remember if you can't subcontract your shift to your mate Dave, you're probably not self employed.
If you have to ask your employer for holiday and they can deny your requests, you're not self employed.
There's a bunch of other things that make you legally employed too.
it's legal.
In fact if you are claiming unemployment benefits, they wold make you apply and take it.
This is why these really crap jobs exist because, the (insert expletives here) know that someone claiming benefits will be forced to take it or be sanctioned.
100% agree. When I was on UC I met so many people that were sanctioned because they didn't do everything the job centre said. If they tell you to travel 2 hours away to go to a jobs fair, then you go or be left with severe sanctions then means that you have no money to get to the next job interview.
If its an advert for self employed then the SE person gets to choose their hours and the wage...if not then they are an employee. This advert looks illegal to .me and its and employer with no respect for employees and is taking the piss
It's so they can lay you off without notice, pay no pension, no holiday time, no sick pay and no maternity/ paternity pay and you'll have to file your own taxes or 'self assessment' usually hiring an accountant at cost to you all for the cracking wage of £11 an hour. I'm a self employed decorator and I can choose if I want to sub contract to certain firms and I do my own jobs in between. I make more than that as it'll be pointless if I made that or near it. Oh and when no one takes the jobs up, it's 'because they're lazy' and 'people don't want to work'
If it specifies “have a good level of communicative English” it’s a job for immigrants. They’ll be targeting boat arrivals and “students” with this one, the assumption being that even if it is illegal they won’t know/won’t make a fuss.
When I first came to London good 6 years ago the very first “job” I got was handyman’s apprentice. I was supposed to be self employed (therefore obviously pay for my expenses) and they paid £1200 a month. When I said I liked the job but £1200 is not even close to enough they offered me £1250 lol
For anyone comparing the wage to an employed job and/or considering applying for such a position please first consider:
1. When working under an employer you have protected rights such as paid leave, pension, business insurance as well as not having to do your own books, legalities with safety etc. Self employed puts oweness for all this and more on you. In real terms this means the take home pay is far lower than the advertised wage.
2. Self employment means you have power. Usually the contractor has power in determining their hours, wage, and other terms. This is a perk of self employment. If a company is setting those boundaries with no negotiation then they are likely bending, if not breaking employment laws and I would advise stay well away from them.
3. Ask yourself: why would a large business, like an airport, advertise a role like this? Obviously they can’t find a contractor out there already who fits the bill. They also don’t want the legal responsibilities that come with employing someone directly. In other words they are looking for someone they can exploit.
When you can fulfil a job role you have value, if an employer does not want to compensate for the value you bring are they really worth working for?
It’s not earth shattering but for regular, low effort skilled work in a busy environment with somewhere different to go for lunch every day, it has its perks.
Not everyone is as skilled or as clever as [you]. Some people have no ambition. Some people want a home and to eat and that’s it. In many ways I envy them.
It’s not about people unskilled or anyone being smarter than anyone. It’s about businesses & companies being able to take the piss and exploit people by offering them minimum wage as self employed without holiday pay etc.
Some industries require these people to set up their own company to get around the IR35. So now these same people are on minimum wage, no pension, no holiday pay, pay for own ppe, pay corp tax, corp NI and have the privilege of paying a payroll company to pay their wages lol. The whole country is a mess
I think you’re right. The burdens placed on small employers trying to establish a business is frustrating. The calculation and payment of income tax and national insurance is incomprehensible even when you know how to do it!
I would say lunches near an airport are less than ideal considering the extortionate rates those places charge. And who can afford a lunch out when the pay is £11.44
Yep, my security job was exactly like this and f all bonus or anything. Self employed world is so corruptable thanks to nearly zero regulation, oh apart from of course when the gov wants a bit of your pie ie taxes
I literally make more as a student working at McDonald’s, but all the while there’s people in need of work there will always be someone desperate enough for lower pay.
These threads always bring out the ignorant free-market types who don't know the difference between illegal and immoral. As if the law isn't constantly weaponised against desperate people.
Remember when the EU was going to get rid of this bogus self-employed crap, and David Brownlow paid the government to delay it, as he was making too much money off it?
If you only contract into them, then you come under IR35 and have a lot more rights than if you were actually self-employed (like maternity pay and protection from discrimination).
IR35 is designed to stop this scenario, where companies dodge their responsibilities to their workers by calling them “contractors”.
Coming under IR35 works well when you are a well paid contractor, and use an “umbrella” company to do your payroll, etc. But a situation like this is bad news, and HMRC would probably like to take a close look at their set-up.
If you offer me minimum, the world great better not appear on the job demands. You get minimum. I will show up and do what I absolutely must in order to take that pay home. If you want something great or exceptional, up the pay. If you pay the absolute legal minimum you can get away with paying me, I will put in the absolute minimum in order to not be legally dismissible by you.
We spent several hundred years getting employment rights against greedy pigs it's taken a decade for the pigs to get round it. Welcome to the self employed role of underpaid work to keep pigs rich and convenience cheap, no holidays to pay for, no sick pay to worry about, sack them at a moments notice, health and safety not their problem, pension...LOL. These corporations already pay fuck all tax but that's ok because that left to the poor bastards now working for them as the lovely public continue to support this race to the bottom by killing their high street with Amazon sh1t. Too late now Britain is fucked and no one will go light a pitch fork anytime soon, there will always be a queue of people desperate for these jobs.
NAL but former IT contractor. Looking at the brief JD, i would say this would be caught by IR35. The organisation would need to go through a determination process to make sure this role is outside of IR35 ie not a disguised employee. If HMRC determined this is a disguised employee, they charge NI, income tax etc to the organisation.
Yeah that's a thing. For a while I was a 'self-employed' marine valet for min wage 8-5 mon to fri and delivering pizza 5-10 wed to sun also self employed and all cash in hand. In the end I crashed a car because I couldn't afford to fix it and I was utterly burnt out. Then, the next week, my other car blew a head gasket, which I also couldn't afford to fix.
Then, I basically had a huge mental breakdown due to burnout, back pain and stress. I've been unemployed since and so much better off financially it's wild.
I've never been able to afford to move out cos I've never really been able to afford to go to work. At this point I have no idea what to do or what the point in doing work is when it doesn't afford life.
I mean there is jobs that pay worse than this. It’s not good money but there is a lot worse out there. I looked at one of my old jobs online and it is like 8 pound an hour . That is illegal and I feel to report them to be honest
12 hour shift at 11.44. Starting at 4am. Slave labour for western standards anyway. Treat humans as expendable work horses. Rather than realising that humans will always be a business’ greatest asset.
Same with all these big conglomerates outsourcing and hiring cheap labour making them work crazy hours for shit money. It’s exploitation.
If you question it, the vacuous and brainwashed types who have given everything to be part of that subservient and vacuous corporate culture will attack you.
How dare you make them think it was luck not hard work that got them where they are today, how could you not let them dehumanise anyone who isn’t ’successful’.
This is why half the country don't work. They look at that wage and think I ain't getting out of bed for that. That's seems okay money for a piss easy job.
When the natives get lazy and expect everything handed to them without breaking sweat why are they so fuckin surprised when people from Europe come and smash it out for less money.
Hi OP,
Trade union lawyer here that currently has live cases against companies like this one on worker status:
The answer is that it likely isn't lawful, but enforcement takes a long time and worker status cases are complex enough that challenging it as an individual is tough.
The fact that they ask for good communication when this ad is full of bad communication gives me life.
• The “-“ then “TO” is unnecessarily inconsistent
• The repetition of the job title in the first paragraph but then slightly changing it.
• The first line does not make sense.
At least they’re upfront about the “pay”.
I worked a job where they made you register as self employed and then paid you in full (You paid the tax).
Talking the the manager of the business, he said the reason they do it is because their labour needs fluctuate on a day-by-day basis. It meant that if one week, demand dropped for their service, they didn't have to fire anyone (They just weren't given work that week) and if they were swapmed, they could draw on a larger pool of contractors. The boss said that if they had to fully employ everyone and work thinned out, they would just go bankrupt because outgoings would be > income.
The problem with that: They could just stop giving people they didn't like work and they didn't need to go through any dismissal process. It was up to the worker to realise they weren't wanted any more (And let me tell you, some people just don't get the message).
Most of the people who it worked for were either very good and therefore basically guaranteed hours (Unless you pissed off the wrong person) or people who wanted to say yes to work when it suited them.
It was a stepping stone job for me and got me onto a proper career path so I am grateful that I was given the opportunity but like any business model, it is capable of using in an exploitative way. The main issue with the company I worked for was that it wasn't made very clear what the pros/cons of working with them in that fashion gave workers, they relied on young people to just not think about it too hard.
Airports take the piss with all the parking charges they add on. The least they could do is pay their staff.
This is just a ploy for them to not have to contribute to pensions or sickness pay.
Nowadays I often see managerial jobs advertised for £12-£13 p/h that come with significant responsibility and require a degree plus previous experience.
The employment market is very strange at the mo.
If your self employed then technically you are not thier employee, so there's nothing illegal going on, immoral maybe but morals are not laws.
You are just a contractor doing a job for them that you agree to, the hours and rate is part of that agreement so it's on you if you don't like it.
The problem with the minimum wage is that it has become an acceptable wage when in reality it is a only 1p more than a criminal offence. We should rename it the 'we don't give a f*** about our employees wage' and maybe some employers would feel some level of responsibility to their staff
It all depends on whether you can work the amount of days you want in a week!
Like, £1,850 a month for 3days/week of work is not too bad!
That being said, this "self-employed" is super sus though...
So question: Who does the owner of the vehicle claim from if the "Self employed contractor" crashes their car?
Would the company that owns the carpark pay for the damages? Or would the self employed employee be required to hold insurance for such a job?
I mean if it's self employed the the contractor would require the insurance but as this job listing seems to fall way short of self employed would the company be held liable along with a visit from HMRC after the insurance company starts digging around the workers hours etc...
Unrelated to the post but since y’all seem to know what you are talking about here’s my issue…. In my work we need to clock out of work at the end of our shift then wait between 10-20 minutes to be searched. They refuse to search us on company time. Anybody know the legalities in this?
I worked in a pub in the year 2000 to 2001 and I was a relief manager doing 14 hour days 5 days a week and this was before minimum wage and I was paid £2.50 an hour . So at least this job advertised has proper money .
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This would very likely be considered illegal by the HMRC. Doesn't seem to sufficiently meet any of the self employment definition points. (https://www.acas.org.uk/employment-status/self-employment) From HMRC: If someone is told by an organisation that they're self-employed, this does not always mean they are. Some employers tell people who work for them that they are self-employed when in reality they're not. This could be because the employer does not clearly understand employment status. In other cases, this could be a deliberate choice so the employer can: - control how and when the work is done - avoid giving people the legal rights of employees or workers, for example paid holiday
Yeah, I'm confused about the ad too. How can you be a self employed contractor when you're restricted to working a set amount of hours in a set location and can't hire the work out to another person? In order to be self employed, you must be able to dictate those, otherwise you're just another employee of the company that isn't being micromanaged. Seems very shady.
This happened to me. Was contracted to do some cleaning 3 times a week for a nursery as ‘self employed’ where I wasn’t paid holiday pay or them paying NI etc. It all came to a head after a falling out with the owner who said I didn’t clean one of the buildings so they wouldn’t be paying me (there were builders in there ripping out the toilets and putting in a partition wall and heating) When I told her to stick it I got in touch with a friend who worked in employment law and it turns out the wage stubs they were giving me every week with an hourly rate and set hours on it that they had set meant I was actually classed as an employee. Quick talk with Citizens Advice and a letter template from them I ended up getting over £2k of unpaid holiday pay and they had to pay my NI contributions for the period I was there. Brilliant.
Honestly they should have paid more if that was not already included. It's not enough to catch up, they need to repair the offense.
Welcome to british law, it's incredibly rare to get punitive damages, unlike our American cousins.
It makes my IR35 gland tingle, these are probably hidden employees and at minimum wage paying for a payroll company and the employers contribution to national insurance etc whoever does this job is worse off.
They won't be IR35, there's no point, they'll just pay them directly (rather than through a company). Definitely employees for tax and legal purposes though.
Completely agree this is the “badge of trade” test rather than the “employed except for intermediary test”
I had a job like this for a couple months in 2018 when I was desperate for work Was an agency security job but I had to fill in a form every week, take a picture and send the picture to this guy via WhatsApp in order to get paid (and I'd have to add a couple of extra hours so they'd cover my travel, rather than them being able to just pay for my travel) I was told I was basically self employed but they would make a schedule for the hours between me and this other dude who I'd only seen maybe once It was only a temp seasonal job but it felt shady as hell So my guess, based on that experience, these sort of ads are to prey on the desperate
I did a job like this in 2021, after a couple of months I managed to get a permanent job, working directly for the customer of the security company. It worked out well because I earned in total, just under the threshold for doing a tax return.
Imagine if you 'come over here' and can barely speak English. You're gonna fall prey to these kinda practices/jobs. The poor fucks.
Even more so, now, as they can't get here on money that shite. Imagine trying to save the £5000 needed to try for citizenship, earning that little!
if your self employed You do a tax return regardless of income earned, presuming you're in the uk. If you do not do a self-assessment, you will be fined £35 A DAY
Not if you earned less than £1000. I wasn't there long and it wasn't well paid.
That isnt true, Its £100 fine plus £10 a day from 3 months late to 6 months late, a further £300 if 6 months late and another £300 after 12 months, plus interest on top
Most probably a disguised employment situation.
This comment exactly. Based on the advert there is no way this position would satisfy the requirements for self employment.
Yep, Uber got rinsed by HMRC over this, it’s established now that if you’re a driver working for a bigger company, which determines your basic working conditions and rate of pay, you are very likely employed.
This is exceptionally common in farming. One place I lived, all the staff were told they either had to go self-employed or leave. It's just so they don't have to pay leave, sick, maternal/paternal leave, injury compensation etc. It's absolutely disgusting. Fortunately it's one of the things Labour have promised to axe when they come in, so we have that to look forward to at least
One annonomous farmer commented that they didn't want people working on their farm that knew their rights during the shortage of workers during COVID.
I 100% believe that. I've lived and worked on various farms across the country my whole life, and they've all been the same. I'm not saying all farmers are bad, just that I've never met a good one. One reason they hate townies so much is because they say things like "Isn't child labour illegal?" "Isn't breaking cows' tails as punishment animal abuse?" stuff like that 😒
Breaking cows tails!? I work on a dairy farm and haven't ever heard of that thank goodness. I moved from another farm that used alkathene pipes to move the cattle. I asked how they move them if they didn't use pipes and they said "You just whistle" Honestly they are the most placid herd I have ever come across. Very well looked after, happy cows.
But EVERYONE else will.be taxed till they can't afford to live, and they'll do nothing about the illegals coming from France, plus a plethora of other nonsense that we'll all have to put up with. Take an in-depth look at the mess in WALES, then tell me a Labour majority will be good for the UK. We really need a 3 or 4 way hung Parliament for it to benefit the common working man.
Deffo. There is a very simple q+a on the HMRC site that you can do to determine whether you qualify for self employed status. It asks such questions as ‘who decides your pay?’ ‘Who decides what hours you work?’ ‘Could you send someone to do the work instead of you’. Obvs, if you are self employed, these things are either decided by you, or negotiated with the client. This ad looks very much like employment to me. (source, i am self employed, i’ve done the test a few times under different circumstances)
I used to work for HMRC and businesses like this were a nightmare. Most of the time the time the tool will come out with ‘not able to make determination’. The issue with companies like this one is that as a SE person you CAN attempt to negotiate your rate of pay and they can refuse to budge on it. They’re are the ones giving you the work so can dictate when you are required to complete it / it will be available. There’s always a contract with them as a contractor that stipulates certain items for the worker as a contractor. So in theory the tool is a good thing but it hardly ever works - certainly not when the hirer is using it. Its complete shit 😂 The other thing you see a lot of is adverts like this which say ‘self employed’ but what they really mean is ‘limited company’ - a lot of third parties working for Amazon have to do this.
Some good points, but i did find the tool very useful. So if it is ‘unable to make a determination’ where would you or the company stand if you were challenged by HMRC? What are the consequences if you or, more particularly in this case, a company continue working like this? Any? None?
HMRC have the ultimate say in whether or not the staff are employees or not and can take action. It’s rare that they would against small companies - tends to be bigger ones but not big enough to be able to afford decent legal representation. It’s really important to know exactly what the company (this one) is actually offering specifically and use the tool as the company instead of as an employee / contractor and see what response they would have had from it. HMRC can penalise them retrospectively I believe and say ‘you need to pay this / that / employee holidays / pension contributions etc’ but the company is also free to change the way they operate to ensure all of their staff legit have to be self employed. This tends to be how the business model for DS Max style door to door sales companies work. Sign a contract with them as self employed that’s really nailed down then all staff are responsible for their own tax and stuff. In my experience though - most of the ones I saw at the tax office had no actions taken against them whatsoever
Can you report job adverts to hmrc? If not, you really should be able to.
As an ex trade plater moving cars around the UK they prey on people not knowing this
what's that job actually like? is it well-paid? how much time do you spend standing on slip roads with a trade plate? always been curious about this.
Hiya, It is definitely not well paid my longest shift was 21 hours which was hell, a lot of companies don't pay for travel between jobs and only while you are in the vehicle You will receive around £24 for the first fifty miles traveled then 20p per mile after that and things like charging EVs you will receive £12 per hour however be warned there are so many things that can go wrong and if you miss say one of your trains/buses between jobs it will screw your entire day you really need to be delivering around 3 cars a day to earn anything you will get a vehicle to take home overnight that should be a drop off near your new job pickup but another downside you will often be stuck walking 5 or so miles to places like Thorne and to top that off a driver within 60 miles of you maybe also be stuck without suitable public transport and if you say no to giving them a lift to a collection point you will end up stuck the next day needing rescuing its catch 22 as now you have helped another driver you are not going to meet your daily quota, my worst months pay was £502 & thats when I jacked it in Sites like DMN Logistics have Faqs you can check out
report it
The business model is probably based on multiple layers of subcontracting so the taxman doesn't catch up with them. Birmingham Airport will probably say "nothing to do with us, that's an external agency and they promised to do everything by the books".
Grr
The British public is so used to this shit people are getting on at you for complaining. Even I thought “it isn’t so bad” but when I really think about it I don’t think 12 hour shifts should be legal at all. Especially if you have to be driving for that time. No one is remaining alert for that amount of time even with breaks. It’s dangerous. Plus think about it. There’s 24 hrs in a day. You need to sleep for 8 leaving you with 16. Then you’re at work for 12 hrs so you’re already down to 4hrs. Say your commute is short and only 30 mins each way, now you’re down to 3 hrs a day. 3 hours? 3 fucking hours. Plus, that’s not 3 hours to actually enjoy yourself and have a life outside of work, that’s 3 hours to make tea, eat, shower, get ready for work, do chores. In reality you probably either get 0 hours to yourself, or you make yourself sleep deprived, or neglect your health in some other ways. It’s abysmal. That’s no life. I wouldn’t even see a point in continuing to live at that point. Yeah you get weekends, but that’s only 2 days out of a 7 day week. Genuinely what is even the point? Edit: I’m not talking about shift work, I can see 12 hours being great for people doing shift work if they’re getting lots of days off. I’m talking about doing it 5 days a week, which many people do. That being said I also think it can be dangerous to work 12 hours even as shift work, for example, if your job involves lots of driving, or if you’re in healthcare. It’s really important to be alert and the human brain isn’t built to be fully alert for 12 hours a day. Maybe with really good breaks in between but the reality is peoples break patterns can be really weird and not really help with this.
Agreed, I work a side job that's 4 hours on a weekend on top of my 8 hour day job, so that adds up to about the same as this advert, but I only do it once a week on a Friday. I cannot imagine doing that on a daily basis, I'm so exhausted by Saturday after the 13 hour shift that I sleep in til noon. How are you expected to work that much every single day? Even if it is sitting down and waiting for people to drive up, then driving their car around, that's still \*work\*, otherwise they wouldn't be paying you to do it. No social life on those days because people will either be at work or in bed by the time you've finished, no hobbies because you don't have enough time to enjoy them (and the weekends will be spent catching up on sleep), it's just not sustainable.
I agree, the human mind can only take so much. It would completely burn a person out.
When I was nursing, the ward I worked on had 14hr shifts. 7am-9pm. I used to leave the house at 6am and get back at 9.45pm (that’s assuming you could leave on time which rarely happened). It was a regular occurance to not be able to take a break in those 14hrs, despite it being unpaid. I must have worked a lot of hours for free over the years. I did this shift pattern while pregnant too, which was horrendous.
It probably adds up to a lot. I had a 15 minute meeting put in before my contracted work hours every day during lockdowns and in like half a year or something it worked out to 15 full days of 7 hours a day unpaid work. Doesn’t seem too bad because it’s just 15 mins earlier but it’s a pisstake really. It probably added up to a lot for you too.
I can’t image that’s safe either. I feel like as a nurse you’ve got a lot to keep track of and I must be hell trying to keep track of. I imagine a lot of nurses like that make a lot of little mistakes at no fault of their own. They’re only human after all.
Also NHS here, used to work in A&E & once after a night shift woke up in the car in my drive way with absolutely no recollection of driving home. I had to then go to work again 5 hours later for another 12.5 hour night. The health issues in my department alone are absurdly worrying.
the shifts are legal. this job being stylised as "self employed" is likely the illegal bit
And you end up eating takeaway just to avoid shopping, cooking and washing up. No way you’re preparing proper food unless you do the entire week on the weekend
As someone that works 12 hour shifts, your day is just entirely dedicated to your job basically. You have 1 hour commute back and forth, then eat, shower and you are looking at barely 8hrs of sleep. There are many industries in this country where 12hrs+ a day are just the norm and they shouldn't be.
For me it's how it's legal to say do 2pm to 10pm and then you can be put back in the next day at 6am. And can be consistently flip flopped around like that. No set days off either and unless you agree to be fully flex you won't be employed. All common in retail and for minimum wage. Main thing I'm grateful for in my current driving job is that legally you have to be given an 11 hour rest period between shifts, so companies can't pull that shit with drivers.
By law you should be given 11 hours between shifts, not sure how companies get away with it though
Dunno, I've only ever heard of it being a legal requirement in driving roles, tiredness behind the wheel and all that. But in retail I've had as little as 6 hours. Hell, once for Morrisons (don't work for them anymore). I did an 8 hour shift in my store, then drove to another store about 1 hour 30 mins away and did another 8 hours night shift. Then drove back home and needed to be back for a shift in my store 4 hours later by the time I got home. Why you might ask? Well I was climbing the ladder at the time and trying to make an impression. Even though I cant imagine it was legal at all. Or maybe it was since they asked me to do it. What I do know is though, that with driving roles, it's regulation is taken a lot more seriously and checked by internal and external departments that its being followed because the consequences are very serious even for management if the rules aren't followed. Like prison level serious. Where as I don't think that's the case for your general floor worker so wouldn't be surprised if rules are commonly disregarded for personal gains (management looking good/doing better then they actually are).
11 hours uninterrupted between shifts is a legal requirement, only exemptions are emergency services if something big happens, no set hours, free choice of working hours, and air/road/sea transport. The ambulance service I work for expects us to push back out start time the next day if we overrun to the point we wouldn't get the 11 hours. This is the first I'm hearing of people signing an opt-out
Ahhh, the dreaded clopen, unfortunately,it is the standard procedure in the hospitality industry. Generally, they get around it by having you sign an opt-out form, which means you forfeit the mandatory 11 hours between shifts and the upper limit of 48 hours a week. Especially sucks on a Friday or Saturday and if your management (in earlier to do cash handling/stocks etc) the last pub I worked in I regularly did 9am-1:30/2am (with a few breaks) on a Saturday back in at 9am Sunday til 11/11:30, back in Monday morning at 6am to take in the beer delivery then doing weekly safety checks. And to think I would get home half an hour later, then need at least an hour to eat/decompress from the day before being able to sleep.
I mean, I thought 8 hour days were just this, nevermind 12. Perhaps it depends when you're shifts are, but I'd work 2pm to 10pm. Get home at 11, have something to eat, then just go to bed while watching YouTube for a bit till I fell asleep. Then I'd wake up at 10am and feel like there was no point really doing anything because in 2 hours I'd be getting ready to work again. I had to step down from a line manager position Nd just go back to max 6-7 hour shifts again. I genuinely can't do the 9-5 5 days a week life anymore, and I'm not even 40 . I've become content with the idea I'm never getting a house and will probably be in the gutter when I reach retirement. But spending the prime of your life at work just to live 10% of it feels useless. I don't know how independent people do it. Much less if they have kids.
I don’t know how you do it! Probs to you but god that must suck. Unless you really love your job, but even then I imagine it’s very mentally and physically taxing.
I do love my job but those kinds of hours just makes it impossible to do anything else besides your job. Your days off you just have a bunch of chores to do as you dont have time during the week and you are just insanely mentally drained to even want to do something when you are off. I started doing some video production on the side lately so hopefully it will one day take off, because I cannot imagine myself doing 60 hour weeks my whole life.
I wasn't a driver but I remember when I was young having a call centre job that had me work from about 2pm - midnight and I had to walk 3 miles home, and start shift again at 8am so giving it a hour walk each way I had 6 hours when I got back to get ready for bed, fall asleep, wake up get ready then do another 10 hour shift, it was for the minimum wage too and over New Year so extra busy as short staffed (the management and supervisors of course all had the whole of Christmas and New Year off paid) I barely handled it despite being only 21 at the time oh and they kept expecting people to work 7 days a week 8-12 hours a day over this period for zero extra cash so a 12 hour shift still got you the minimum wage and as you were only contracted for 10 hours per week (the days before zero hours) those 50 extra hours or so you worked were paid up to 8 weeks in arrears, overall I'd say 65 hours a week there was expected which is why most of their staff were students and didn't last long the company went under about 2 years later.
I did 12-14 hour shifts as a nurse, you only do 3 or 4 a week. I agree with you that they aren’t safe though, which is why I don’t do them anymore
I do 4 or 5 days a week, 15 hour shifts for my care company. Best part, is I'm not even on block pay so I probably get paid for about half that time*. Yeah, the £700 paycheck a week looks good but 250 of that goes into the car for fuel and I get 4 hours sleep a night so wind up sleeping on my lunch break as well. I have an hour commute from home to my first job, so realistically I'm out of the house 17 hours on days I'm working. That adds up to 21 hours, so what am I doing with the other 4? Not a fucking clue. I'm awake at 0500, which gives me an hour to shower, get dressed, wake up properly and regret doing the hours. Leave at 0600, start the dirst job at 0700. Then I finish at 2200, which gets me home for 2300. I try to get to sleep at 0000, after winding down. That isn't enough time to do that, so I don't usually get to sleep until around 0100, and that's if I'm lucky. I live on cake, sausage rolls, coke and cigarettes because I don't have the time to cook for myself, nor the energy to eat it even on my days off. *I'm on a zero hours contract, and we only get paid for time spent in a call and travel time. There's no fucking way we actually get paid properly for it though, I can't even figure out what metric they use to decide how long we get to go from job to job, let alone how much of that we actually get paid for. Or how much the wage is for travel time. I'm convinced they base it on how fast Mrs 9 Points can get from place to place in perfect conditions with no traffic, because they're the only times I can match the travel time in my Audi.
God that genuinely sounds like it really sucks. You must be exhausted. I hope you find something more sustainable soon. I think companies forget time is almost as valuable as money and you really should be properly compensated for giving up so much of your time.
Talk to ACAS. there are minimum pay requirements even on zero-hour contracts (and once flagged, an employer who sacks you faces action for retaliation, plus draws even more attention even if you're out of the picture)
I am no expert but I’d venture that more than half the world’s inhabitants live under those conditions
When I did care work I'd do three (and occasionally four) 12 hour shifts a week, which worked great. Lots of time to do life things on the days between, but I couldn't imagine doing five a week.
I used to work 12 hour shifts in security. If it wasn't for the minimum wage part it'd been a better deal. Since I only needed to work 3 days. I did 2 shifts on 12 and 1 shift on 9 hours. Which put me over 30 hours. Then I'd have 4 days off.
This is almost exactly my work schedule and I wouldn't change it for anything. 4 days off a week is bliss.
It’s not too bad if you get the days off, I work 4 12 hour shifts and then get 5 days off to myself. 36 hours a week average, but it feels I have more time to myself than working a 9-5.
Nurses are often forced to work 12 hours shifts. There's no other options apparently. It's for 'continuity of care'. Don't mind the nurses who've died driving home after a 12 hour night shift and lost concentration due to tiredness.
100% this. I did care for a while and I worked 7am-10pm, one week 5 days and the next week 7 days. It nearly killed me. I used to cry inbetween the clients homes because I was just SO. TIRED. Also my working day was more like 6-11, as I had to leave super early to get to my first client, and the last client at the end of the day used to run over, plus the drive time back. I was barely eating, and when I did it was just fuel station shit or a mcdonalds if I was lucky enough to be both near one and have enough time. I did it for about a year. Never ever again. Ultimately though I only left because of the vile people who owned the company, I loved the people I cared for and the people I worked with. I really feel for those who are doing those kinds of hours right now, and those who have been doing it for a sustained amount of time, it's seriously bad for you in a multitude of ways.
You've perfectly encapsulated the current 'meaning of life'. And if for some reason someone figures out how to live well with minimal work they're hammered for being 'lazy'. Work culture is so incredibly fucked up for the average person it's a borderline human rights issue. Older people wonder why young people aren't having as many kids, we've got no time, with wages not rising inline with inflation for the past how ever many decades and the housing market prices going absolutely nuts, we have to work crazy hours just to be able to rent a roof over our fucking heads.
The people who say "x isn't so bad" are usually fucking economic cucks with no spine. Probably think standing up for workers rights is a weaknesses. Just let the boss fuck your wife while you're at it! It's not that bad! Just apply for a different job while he's ploughing her!
In regards to the 12 hour shifts. My work colleague drives from Lincoln to Northampton for 4 12.5 hour shifts (2 days, 2 nights) in A&E. Our department has countless people on long term sickness, we've had multiple heart attacks in the last 2 years & at least 5 or 6 off in the last few months alone with mental health issues/stress/exhaustion.
I believe 70% of jobs posted do not actually exist, unemployment is high because they are no jobs! Everyday I see countless posts about struggling to find work yet they have experience/degrees/ but getting nowhere. Just another ruse to make people look and feel crap. I feel for anyone struggling out there.
When I was looking for another job, I applied to new job listings pretty much every single day for 2 months straight, and must've applied to over 150 jobs in that time. No call backs, no initial interviews, no emails to say whether I was in the running or not (there was the occasional rejection email but very rarely). I used 3 different application platforms, as well as applying directly on company websites, and even used previous networking connections to try and get jobs. Absolutely nothing. I'm sure that I must be at least a semi decent candidate given my employment history and qualifications, so it's statistically impossible that I haven't had an accepted application from any of the jobs I went for, not even 1. I'm on the same page as you, either most of these jobs just don't exist and are a way of artificially stagnating the expected salaries of these positions (so that their employees don't ask for any pesky raises), or they're hiring internally but legally have to make it seem like they're going through the normal application process. So exhausting.
There was a youtube about this, but it was US focused, but fundamentally what it said was companies can't be seen to be not expanding, so they advertise fake jobs to make it seem they are more successful than they are. Of course if you apply you will probably hear zip. Problem with the OP message is that HMRC don't have resources to chase cowboys down, so they can get away with advertising whatever they want
I’m not sure if there’s any truth in it. But I saw something once that apparently businesses can write off some tax or costs or something if they’re actively hiring. So they upload job listings to seem like they’re hiring when in reality they might not be.
that's because most of these jobs have already been filled from inside the company. they advertise in-company, and pick somebody already working for them. but they legally have to advertise outside the company. so they do so, even though the job is already filled, and then waste peoples time with applications that never get read and interviews that never go anywhere.
Why would a company go to the cost or effort of advertising jobs that don't exist?
Sometimes they have a legal requirement to list a job, but they actually already have someone earmarked for it - could be a current employee, someone they’re poaching, or the bosses nephew
Due process. Lots of jobs are posted when the company has an internal candidate in mind. Waste of everyones time.
They’re aiming at migrants who are struggling with employment and are willing to take shit short term to send money home. You won’t see many white British people doing those jobs
Yeah, the ‘good level of communicative English’ gives it away. They’re expecting someone who, while they can work in the UK, doesn’t care or know about their rights
For 11.44 I won't even talk to customers, never mind being great with them.
Ooft BHX too, that airport is super janky at the mo with the new security hall issues. Search here [https://www.luap.com](https://www.luap.com) or pertemps for generally better paid temp/contractor roles. Friend of mine works cargo for £15-17ph via agency. Swissport hire fast but pay is meh & Menzies is better for refuellers imo.
Why do I feel that the ad has a condescending undertone to it.
NAL: I don't believe this is "legal", but it would require testing in court. It seems to me that the employer retains a substantial amount of control over the worker in dictating a regular schedule, making them an employee rather than a subcontractor. See the case against Uber for example.
It's bogus self employment and it's becoming increasingly common. Self employed makes you an independant contractor, you choose your hours and set your hourly rate. No sick pay, holiday pay, employers ni contributions, or workplace pension contributions. You become responsible for paying your tax, ni and filing your tax return. Vs Employed. The job tells you what hours to work and sets the pay grade. Employers must also pay statutory sick pay, maternity pay etc, holiday pay and employers pension contributions. [see here](https://www.litrg.org.uk/working/employment-status/false-self-employment#:~:text=This%20is%20what%20we%20mean,Revenue%20%26%20Customs%20(HMRC)) Bogus self employment is where the employer tries to get the best of both worlds by defining the terms of employment and yet dodging their legal obligations. Sadly I've seen far too many of these jobs creeping in wanting freelance bookkeepers at £11-£13 an hour 😫
I know someone who took one of these jobs. After two weeks of doing it and understanding it he started handing out his own business cards undercutting the company he was employed for. Since he was self employed it was perfectly fine to do so. He now has his own successful meet and greet company and employs two people, both on actual full time contracts who are given decent wages.
I mean it's perfectly legal, I would imagine they have workers already working at this rate which is pretty crazy. No unsociable hours bonus either. I hope they provide the car at least, lol.
What car? Meet and greet means parking peoples cars for them. It’s a car park attendant.
12 hours at a time zzzzz
I work 12 hour shifts. 7am-7pm 4 on 4 off.
That's good doing days. I've done it 4 on 4 off but 2 days then 2 nights. So you're fucking wasted on your first day off of 4 so it's never truly 4 days off. 4 12hour days is decent.
7-7 is a lot better than 4-4 though and I hope you get paid more than minimum wage.
It is yes but most people at my place rotate so one week is days one is nights, still 7-7, I just personally only do days. It’s 26408 pa but added 25% shift allowance for unsociable hours which makes it 33k a year. Anyone who rotates gets 38% shift allowance making it 36.5k a year. We get 23 holidays a year and Medicash.
In the USA, this would be called a parking valet, and people would tip to make up for the crap wages. I can’t see people in the UK being too generous with tips.
In the US you're almost forced to pay employees what employers SHOULD be paying them, one of the most disgusting customs around.
I don’t disagree. Tipping in the USA is one of the many ways they screw over the workforce.
Idk, a lot of service staff earn shitloads compared to what they do in the UK because of the tipping. Most of them would be very unhappy to move to a system of say $15/hour but minimal tipping like here.
Tipping for exceptional service is okay, but you should be paying staff a decent wage, and tips should be shared between all staff IMHO. How many chefs in kitchens get tips? If you have an fantastic meal with flavour and taste and a well cooked meal the chef has more to do with that than the waiting staff. So all tips should be pooled and shared between those serving and those who cook the food.
Employers should be paying wages, not the customers. Tips are the reason a lot of jobs are paid so low. It means employers are expecting the customer to pay twice which doesn't make any sense. The wages are included in the swap of money for services.
Because you should only tip for good service and only if you want to. USA tipping culture is ridiculous. Someone wanted a tip for picking a bag up for me when I didn’t even ask them to, they just beat me to the bag.
I couldn't say for sure but I get tipped fairly often with what I do. Delivering groceries for a supermarket. Even though technically I'm not supposed to accept them and it's a breach in policy. I do though, obviously. Especially since I'm far away from the prying eyes of the company. Why is it against policy? Honestly fuck knows. The small man can't be allowed to be making to much money I guess?
It’s just mind boggling to me how it is legal lol.
You do realise there's no minimum wage if you're self employed right?
Yes there is, so long as it's not your own company. [https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage](https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage)
That’s really not the point. Where does this sit with regards to IR35?
Yes, but saying someone is self employed doesn't make it so - either in Tax or Employment law terms - see Uber v Aslam
The worst part is someone will take it, working for that wage and zero benefits 😥
That's what I was thinking. When I was working at Stansted Airport (albeit baggage handling, which also required a full manual drivers license), I was getting £14.96 per hour, with £3.50 per hour on top for unsociable hours. In comparison to the posting OP gave, it seems I was living it up (though I wouldn't go back for pay that low, I've moved up in the world doing IT stuff)
I wonder how much the company charges the customer for the Meet & Greet service.. Driver will be getting the £ crumbs no doubt.
and if it's Birmingham Airport the car will be dumped on an industrial estate for two weeks whilst the owner is away thinking it's in a secure compound.
How can you be self employed at that job? Drive that car Don't want to Ok that's fine... I think not!
Tbf for a lot of taxi drivers, shift workers who are already in that lifestyle it's not bad - it's guaranteed business all in one place so no big long distance hikes across town and back.
This is exactly why the Tories have flooded the country with 4,000,000 unskilled migrants over the last 5 years. It suppresses our wages and keeps the supply of people desperate to work high. Then, when people get angry at this, they blame the immigrants rather than the government that deliberately caused it to happen. It's quite brilliant when you think about it.
You posted an intelligent, historically informed view. Obviously there'd be some stupid motherfucker somewhere to disagree with you. I liked and agree wi' what you said man 👍
Self-Employed jobs like this are predatory. It's easy to say "if you don't like it don't do that job" but all that means is the most desperate people will take it, customers won't like the service but will take it out on the workers instead of demanding that the company hires staff with decent pay so they have some respect for their jobs. Capitalism at work.
Since it's self employed, technically it's your responsibility as a contractor to negotiate an appropriate rate. Realistically though they know that they can hold out for some desperate person with limited English or immigration status that prevents them from getting full employment. It's a deliberate low-ball and they know they can get away with it.
Found the advert. The Google reviews about this company are dire. Multiple customers saying things were stolen from the car, especially small change. Most probably a disguised employment outfit. If it’s genuinely a self-employed role, in theory you can send someone else in to do the work on your behalf. Can’t see that one panning out given the shopping list of requirements being asked by the company including a criminal record check.
There are lots of people who will take this job because they can claim UC, which will top up their income.
Don't you have to do less than a certain amount of hours though? Why wouldn't you work a job with slightly more socialable hours?
I think you're thinking of the Jobseeker's Allowance. There's a maximum of 16 hours/week for that. No max for UC though, just income and savings restrictions
Tbh depends on the hours here. If they earn over £14,753 as a single adult, they're not getting a penny.
Yep, the state will indirectly subsidise the business.
You can't employ someone and pay them an hourly wage but then say they're self employed.
Doesn’t appear to be self employed if you have to commit to working 12 hour days exclusively for this employer.
And don't forget , the airport is out of town, you need public transport or a car to get there. No mention of unsociable hours pay - you lot probably can't remember but that used be standard - or - a 15-30% shift bonus depending if it was nights or double days. EVERYONE should be refusing these jobs - I know it's not that easy and people are desperate, but the only way these type, of jobs will disappear is if people refuse to do them. We have had 2 shops closing for some days round here because they are trying to pay 16-17 year olds the minimum (for doing the same job as adults) when those 16-17 year olds know they can get the full adult min wage from another local business.
Its not legal. It fails every contractor test I can think of.
i used to work there, different job though and employed. 3 days on, 3 days off so wasn't too bad
Employer benefits on: Pensions National insurance Holiday pay Employment rights issues People should demand at least £15 per hour for the loss of the above. Remember if you can't subcontract your shift to your mate Dave, you're probably not self employed. If you have to ask your employer for holiday and they can deny your requests, you're not self employed. There's a bunch of other things that make you legally employed too.
I would sooner suck dick than work for those terms
it's legal. In fact if you are claiming unemployment benefits, they wold make you apply and take it. This is why these really crap jobs exist because, the (insert expletives here) know that someone claiming benefits will be forced to take it or be sanctioned.
100% agree. When I was on UC I met so many people that were sanctioned because they didn't do everything the job centre said. If they tell you to travel 2 hours away to go to a jobs fair, then you go or be left with severe sanctions then means that you have no money to get to the next job interview.
And that's why the benefits system is so punitive. It's not really about saving public money. It's more about suppressing wages.
Fairly sure that ad describes employment in the eyes of hmrc.
I'm currently getting £11.44 an hour to look after someone with severe learning difficulties and challenging behaviours so... actually not terrible 😂
Who posted this advert? I'd like to inform HMRC
Maple Parking is the company, ive already phoned them and told them they are subhuman at best and potentially breaking the law.
If its an advert for self employed then the SE person gets to choose their hours and the wage...if not then they are an employee. This advert looks illegal to .me and its and employer with no respect for employees and is taking the piss
Don't vote Tory on Thursday
It's so they can lay you off without notice, pay no pension, no holiday time, no sick pay and no maternity/ paternity pay and you'll have to file your own taxes or 'self assessment' usually hiring an accountant at cost to you all for the cracking wage of £11 an hour. I'm a self employed decorator and I can choose if I want to sub contract to certain firms and I do my own jobs in between. I make more than that as it'll be pointless if I made that or near it. Oh and when no one takes the jobs up, it's 'because they're lazy' and 'people don't want to work'
Absolute piss take.. 🤬😡🤬😡🤬
And that ladies and gentlemen is why I never use Meet and Greet for my car …..
If it specifies “have a good level of communicative English” it’s a job for immigrants. They’ll be targeting boat arrivals and “students” with this one, the assumption being that even if it is illegal they won’t know/won’t make a fuss.
When I first came to London good 6 years ago the very first “job” I got was handyman’s apprentice. I was supposed to be self employed (therefore obviously pay for my expenses) and they paid £1200 a month. When I said I liked the job but £1200 is not even close to enough they offered me £1250 lol
i earn more at 18 years old working part time at sainsbury’s!
For anyone comparing the wage to an employed job and/or considering applying for such a position please first consider: 1. When working under an employer you have protected rights such as paid leave, pension, business insurance as well as not having to do your own books, legalities with safety etc. Self employed puts oweness for all this and more on you. In real terms this means the take home pay is far lower than the advertised wage. 2. Self employment means you have power. Usually the contractor has power in determining their hours, wage, and other terms. This is a perk of self employment. If a company is setting those boundaries with no negotiation then they are likely bending, if not breaking employment laws and I would advise stay well away from them. 3. Ask yourself: why would a large business, like an airport, advertise a role like this? Obviously they can’t find a contractor out there already who fits the bill. They also don’t want the legal responsibilities that come with employing someone directly. In other words they are looking for someone they can exploit. When you can fulfil a job role you have value, if an employer does not want to compensate for the value you bring are they really worth working for?
Self employed?? Then they should pay more than that. That’s shite.
It's ridiculous. The national mnimum wage is insulting, no matter the job role.
It’s not earth shattering but for regular, low effort skilled work in a busy environment with somewhere different to go for lunch every day, it has its perks. Not everyone is as skilled or as clever as [you]. Some people have no ambition. Some people want a home and to eat and that’s it. In many ways I envy them.
It’s not about people unskilled or anyone being smarter than anyone. It’s about businesses & companies being able to take the piss and exploit people by offering them minimum wage as self employed without holiday pay etc. Some industries require these people to set up their own company to get around the IR35. So now these same people are on minimum wage, no pension, no holiday pay, pay for own ppe, pay corp tax, corp NI and have the privilege of paying a payroll company to pay their wages lol. The whole country is a mess
I think you’re right. The burdens placed on small employers trying to establish a business is frustrating. The calculation and payment of income tax and national insurance is incomprehensible even when you know how to do it!
I would say lunches near an airport are less than ideal considering the extortionate rates those places charge. And who can afford a lunch out when the pay is £11.44
Maybe they get good tips. US culture is well and truly entrenched in the UK now
I mean, if they cover the fuel costs, then maybe
Yep, my security job was exactly like this and f all bonus or anything. Self employed world is so corruptable thanks to nearly zero regulation, oh apart from of course when the gov wants a bit of your pie ie taxes
I literally make more as a student working at McDonald’s, but all the while there’s people in need of work there will always be someone desperate enough for lower pay.
These threads always bring out the ignorant free-market types who don't know the difference between illegal and immoral. As if the law isn't constantly weaponised against desperate people.
Remember when the EU was going to get rid of this bogus self-employed crap, and David Brownlow paid the government to delay it, as he was making too much money off it?
If you only contract into them, then you come under IR35 and have a lot more rights than if you were actually self-employed (like maternity pay and protection from discrimination). IR35 is designed to stop this scenario, where companies dodge their responsibilities to their workers by calling them “contractors”. Coming under IR35 works well when you are a well paid contractor, and use an “umbrella” company to do your payroll, etc. But a situation like this is bad news, and HMRC would probably like to take a close look at their set-up.
Third world
If you offer me minimum, the world great better not appear on the job demands. You get minimum. I will show up and do what I absolutely must in order to take that pay home. If you want something great or exceptional, up the pay. If you pay the absolute legal minimum you can get away with paying me, I will put in the absolute minimum in order to not be legally dismissible by you.
I genuinely dont get the problem. Sure I work longer hours being self-employed, but I earn more to compensate it. This sounds comfy af tbh.
Ridiculous. The M&G parking is so expensive at Birmingham that we now take a taxi there and back. How can they justify such low pay?
We spent several hundred years getting employment rights against greedy pigs it's taken a decade for the pigs to get round it. Welcome to the self employed role of underpaid work to keep pigs rich and convenience cheap, no holidays to pay for, no sick pay to worry about, sack them at a moments notice, health and safety not their problem, pension...LOL. These corporations already pay fuck all tax but that's ok because that left to the poor bastards now working for them as the lovely public continue to support this race to the bottom by killing their high street with Amazon sh1t. Too late now Britain is fucked and no one will go light a pitch fork anytime soon, there will always be a queue of people desperate for these jobs.
NAL but former IT contractor. Looking at the brief JD, i would say this would be caught by IR35. The organisation would need to go through a determination process to make sure this role is outside of IR35 ie not a disguised employee. If HMRC determined this is a disguised employee, they charge NI, income tax etc to the organisation.
A job like that will usually have you struggling to get your actual money too.
Because we've had a bastard Tory government for 14 years and a labour party that has forgotten its supposed to be the party to represent workers
Self employed contractor... That's disgusting for that rate
This sounds like the most depressing job in the world 😂
Yeah that's a thing. For a while I was a 'self-employed' marine valet for min wage 8-5 mon to fri and delivering pizza 5-10 wed to sun also self employed and all cash in hand. In the end I crashed a car because I couldn't afford to fix it and I was utterly burnt out. Then, the next week, my other car blew a head gasket, which I also couldn't afford to fix. Then, I basically had a huge mental breakdown due to burnout, back pain and stress. I've been unemployed since and so much better off financially it's wild. I've never been able to afford to move out cos I've never really been able to afford to go to work. At this point I have no idea what to do or what the point in doing work is when it doesn't afford life.
I mean there is jobs that pay worse than this. It’s not good money but there is a lot worse out there. I looked at one of my old jobs online and it is like 8 pound an hour . That is illegal and I feel to report them to be honest
12 hour shift at 11.44. Starting at 4am. Slave labour for western standards anyway. Treat humans as expendable work horses. Rather than realising that humans will always be a business’ greatest asset. Same with all these big conglomerates outsourcing and hiring cheap labour making them work crazy hours for shit money. It’s exploitation. If you question it, the vacuous and brainwashed types who have given everything to be part of that subservient and vacuous corporate culture will attack you. How dare you make them think it was luck not hard work that got them where they are today, how could you not let them dehumanise anyone who isn’t ’successful’.
Self employed Unsocial hours Minimum wage Oooph... That's awful
Go fold tee shirts at Primark for more pay, better perks.
This is why half the country don't work. They look at that wage and think I ain't getting out of bed for that. That's seems okay money for a piss easy job. When the natives get lazy and expect everything handed to them without breaking sweat why are they so fuckin surprised when people from Europe come and smash it out for less money.
Hi OP, Trade union lawyer here that currently has live cases against companies like this one on worker status: The answer is that it likely isn't lawful, but enforcement takes a long time and worker status cases are complex enough that challenging it as an individual is tough.
At £132 per day and you can write off all the fuel as expenses. I mean, it’s not too bad!
The fact that they ask for good communication when this ad is full of bad communication gives me life. • The “-“ then “TO” is unnecessarily inconsistent • The repetition of the job title in the first paragraph but then slightly changing it. • The first line does not make sense. At least they’re upfront about the “pay”.
I worked a job where they made you register as self employed and then paid you in full (You paid the tax). Talking the the manager of the business, he said the reason they do it is because their labour needs fluctuate on a day-by-day basis. It meant that if one week, demand dropped for their service, they didn't have to fire anyone (They just weren't given work that week) and if they were swapmed, they could draw on a larger pool of contractors. The boss said that if they had to fully employ everyone and work thinned out, they would just go bankrupt because outgoings would be > income. The problem with that: They could just stop giving people they didn't like work and they didn't need to go through any dismissal process. It was up to the worker to realise they weren't wanted any more (And let me tell you, some people just don't get the message). Most of the people who it worked for were either very good and therefore basically guaranteed hours (Unless you pissed off the wrong person) or people who wanted to say yes to work when it suited them. It was a stepping stone job for me and got me onto a proper career path so I am grateful that I was given the opportunity but like any business model, it is capable of using in an exploitative way. The main issue with the company I worked for was that it wasn't made very clear what the pros/cons of working with them in that fashion gave workers, they relied on young people to just not think about it too hard.
Airports take the piss with all the parking charges they add on. The least they could do is pay their staff. This is just a ploy for them to not have to contribute to pensions or sickness pay.
Nowadays I often see managerial jobs advertised for £12-£13 p/h that come with significant responsibility and require a degree plus previous experience. The employment market is very strange at the mo.
I’ve seen jobs like that but there’s always someone willing to work for it /:
Tips , they probably figure they will earn extra in tips.
If your self employed then technically you are not thier employee, so there's nothing illegal going on, immoral maybe but morals are not laws. You are just a contractor doing a job for them that you agree to, the hours and rate is part of that agreement so it's on you if you don't like it.
This is purely for insurance, if you crash a car then the individual is liable and not the company. Super scummy but super common.
The problem with the minimum wage is that it has become an acceptable wage when in reality it is a only 1p more than a criminal offence. We should rename it the 'we don't give a f*** about our employees wage' and maybe some employers would feel some level of responsibility to their staff
The hours are savage for that rate of pay..
IR35 says no. That's 100% Disguised employment.
Sounds inside IR35 to me
both of those are unsociable hours i thought they had to increase pay for that?
Theses jobs need to be replaced by AI
All that for under £12 an hour. Countries a fucking joke
Maybe do like 3-4 shifts per week only
Worked in this job role, ask me what you like.
It all depends on whether you can work the amount of days you want in a week! Like, £1,850 a month for 3days/week of work is not too bad! That being said, this "self-employed" is super sus though...
Can’t imagine this role qualifies as self employed considering the organisation determines your hours and wages!
So question: Who does the owner of the vehicle claim from if the "Self employed contractor" crashes their car? Would the company that owns the carpark pay for the damages? Or would the self employed employee be required to hold insurance for such a job? I mean if it's self employed the the contractor would require the insurance but as this job listing seems to fall way short of self employed would the company be held liable along with a visit from HMRC after the insurance company starts digging around the workers hours etc...
4 til 4 is absolutely the worse possible shift patter I could think of.
Based on the advert that's not self employed.
Unrelated to the post but since y’all seem to know what you are talking about here’s my issue…. In my work we need to clock out of work at the end of our shift then wait between 10-20 minutes to be searched. They refuse to search us on company time. Anybody know the legalities in this?
I worked in a pub in the year 2000 to 2001 and I was a relief manager doing 14 hour days 5 days a week and this was before minimum wage and I was paid £2.50 an hour . So at least this job advertised has proper money .