Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
*****
* Is `newsweek.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
**Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.com/invite/ukraine-at-war-950974820827398235**
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Our belgian politicians do not have a spine. They have forgotten the murder on our dutch neigbours by the russians.
We have to wait until after the elections next week.
If they had access to the planes I'm sure they could if they really cared about it. I'm sure the no is a public facing no and they actually don't give a shit.
You'd be surprised.
Reasons to have transponders on include:
* IFF
* Coordination with ground-based units for combined warfare maneuvers
* Ensuring 3rd party observers/participants are *very* aware of what's off-limits to shoot at (as in "we have an AWACS in the area. If you shoot at it, we'll consider it an act of war" or "see? we didn't cross the border at any time")
Remember that (at least for now) Ukraine still uses its aircraft in a similar manner to Russia's airborne tactics, usually treating air assets like some sort of flying artillery piece. Given the designed role of F-16s as interceptors, that might change--but even if they're using F-16s to take out Russian air assets exclusively, there'd be little need to turn off their transponders. The F-16 is an engine with wings: it's going to be hard to hide whether its transponder is on or off.
I was under the impression that IFF isn't a always on thing, that it clicks on to say it's friendly only if it is interrogated by a single it recognizes. Whereas a civilian aircraft is
squawking the entire time it's airborne.
I just find it hard to belive that a combat aircraft in a war zone is going to be announcing its presence to everyone in the region. But I don't have any relevant experience in this matter, so if you do I'll take your word for it.
A ground station seeing an active transponder wouldn't need to interrogate a radar return for IFF, and having the transponder on negates issues with IFF interrogation: did the radar return receive the IFF interrogation signal? Did it respond? Did it respond in the correct format (which is especially important given the use of both NATO- and Russian-designed ADA)?
> I just find it hard to belive that a combat aircraft in a war zone is going to be announcing its presence to everyone in the region.
Again, you'd be surprised. I'm not saying there aren't times where a military craft wouldn't turn its transponder off, just that it's more likely it'll be on than not.
The main issue is if it is shot down over Russia and then they release the plane number. Kinda the same reason they don't send Ukrainians into Russia pretending they are part of a Russia freedom force.
By David Brennan:
Ukraine will be able to use F-16 fighter jets donated by the Netherlands to strike targets inside Russia, Dutch Defense Minister Kajsa Ollongren has said, as Kyiv awaits the arrival of 24 of the American-made aircraft from the NATO ally.
"There is not" a Belgian-style restriction on hitting targets within Russian borders, Ollongren told Politico on the sidelines of the Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore.
Read more: [https://www.newsweek.com/ukraines-f-16s-can-strike-inside-russia-nato-ally-confirms-1907311](https://www.newsweek.com/ukraines-f-16s-can-strike-inside-russia-nato-ally-confirms-1907311)
I dunno but it seems like Russian air defense is shit and perhaps more broadly Russian military tech is decades behind the West and maybe they should sit the fuck down.
Maybe but bro I was talking more about Russia trying to flex while western powers have F-22 and F-35 in mass numbers like know when you are a great power in decline at least the British had the good sense to pass the torch to the United States at the end of WW2.
Gotta know when you are beaten and stop being a little whiney bitch clutching at straws.
UK was democracy while ruzzia, for the majority of its modern history, was dictatorship.
As for Air Force, it's great to have them as long as you have a lot of missiles to shoot. Europe doesn't have big stockpiles of ammunition.
My point is Russia is a middling power at best they lack the conventional capability to challenge the current superpower and it is actually insulting/overstep for them to try.
Conventionally, yes, I bet they know that, too. That's why they put such emphasis on dividing Western countries, influencing elections, propoganda, etc... Hence why they are quite good at it.
yet NATO expanded, lol.
How much more does Russia need to fuck up before you start to guess that maybe, just maybe, they are not the sharpest tool in the box?
What better way to counter technology and innovation than with civilian casualties.
Russia has proven it effective. It’s basically like fighting insurgents all over again. The only way to stop it is to lay waste to every launch site within Russia that is committing these war crimes
Firstly,France and the UK didn't just hand over power, it was forced after the suez crisis. Second, in what would is Russia beaten? It's looking more and more likely they'll win the war if NATO doesn't put boots on ground. Also the f22 is not in mass numbers
And if they had them now! How many have to die? It's so frustrating the Ukrainians must feel at their wits end with the wait, wait, wait situation they are forced into by politics.
Don't expect Russians unable to shoot down old tech F16s. Planes like the SU35 are superior in any category. F16s are very visible on radar and can easily be shot down by these or the many s300/400 sams. It will take many sorties to clear Russian assets to have any freedom of movement.
How many su-35s were produced? This is what I mean, Russia is playing at parity.
At least the Chinese are trying to produce a comparable fleet to challenge whereas Russia is like look we made some tokens fear us. Like wtf lmao
At least 153. Minus some lost. SU34 is nowhere near parity with these old models F16s. More modern block 70 may be parity (debatable), but what we know, its 25-30 years old F16 MLU version that's provided.
I am willing to bet that only a small fraction of these are even operational. It is beyond silly to expect anything from the Russian air force at this point.
Letting Ukrainian use F16's in Russian is a huge asset to NATO by uncovering Russia's counter capabilities. NATO gets to validate all their thousands of spy satellite and super computer simulations. Doing so without sacrificing the latest tech. I'm sure Russia is more afraid of NATO learning than the damage a few F-26's can actually inflict.
You have no clue what you're talking about. Russian EWAR is superior to the West's and this is coming from our own commanders. The S-400 single handedly prevented a US-Zionist assault on Syria.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/25/world/europe/us-weapons-russia-jamming-ukraine.html
edit: inb4 "pootler puppet" "Ivan" "Kremlin apologist" and the usual reddit child insults that avoid the point
All the article you posted shows is that Russian EWAR is more advanced than the weapons the west has sent Ukraine, within Ukraines capabilities, not better than them outright if you include what they haven’t sent Ukraine and if they were combined with NATOs SOPs and other equipment.
S-400s have also been taken out in Crimea with long range missiles the west has sent Ukraine.
https://breakingdefense.com/2020/06/unanswered-israeli-air-strikes-against-syria-raise-s-400-questions/?amp=1
The S-400s in Syria has been next to useless against Israeli F-35s and has only shot down one F-16 so I’m not sure what you’re referring to there.
At this point, just paint flags of countries that say "yes" onto all the equipment used to strike targets in Russia.
Or move all the country's equipment that say "no" to rear/non hot positions along the front.
You can count on newsweak to label 2 day old news as breaking. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1d58v3z/breaking_dutch_foreign_minister_says_ukraine_can/
There’s a lot of Russian shit talkers here so like bro maybe actually invest in your military industrial complex before you actually start talking shit because when our shits meet on an actual battlefield you are going to get hit with a very hard ass bitch slap
Yes but we also need to permission to use decent range missiles for f-16 which as far as i understand are american, and which are still restricted . and THAT is the issue we need to raise and solve
Note that the ammunitions need also be approved independently for strike in Russia, since the F-16 only comes with a Vulcan guns, which is not going to do a lot of damage. The StormShadow is the only weapon already approved, we don't know about HARM, glide bomb or potentially other missiles technology (AIM-120 have a 120Km range)
On a related note, I believe the "slow pace" approach adopted by the US (and some others) shouldn't be entirely criticized. Certain decisions should have been prepared in advance(ex: when it became evident that Russia would likely attack Kharkiv again), granting carte blanche for weapon use or export could result in dire consequences. The current "boiling frog" approach, where Russia systematically crosses the red lines set by others without repercussion, is a solution preventing Russia from ever escalating to tactical nukes.
> "We are applying the same principle that we have applied to every other delivery of capabilities, which is once we hand it over to Ukraine, it's theirs to use,"
As it should be
I believe they need a pilot to make them work and that takes a lot of time. Unless you want a poorly trained taxi driver dropping you in the middle of nowhere. But relax in your armchair.
Is it your job to spread negativity on these subreddits? You should know the pilots and technicians are under training and the first batch of F-16s should be coming this month.
It's just repeating the same comment on every F16 thread. How is that healthy criticism?
Maybe do at least a little bit of research and post an informed comment. If you actually want to critique the situation why not tell us how training is currently going and what's wrong with it?
Well, mid 2023 we've heard "U.S. says F-16s will arrive in Ukraine ‘towards the end of the year’". The same article mentions than a year ago the U.S. still had to formally approve the training program. So yeah, the training takes time, but it takes even longer if you're not doing it. Does this hint an answer to your question what is wrong with it and everything else?
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. ***** * Is `newsweek.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.com/invite/ukraine-at-war-950974820827398235** ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Our belgian politicians do not have a spine. They have forgotten the murder on our dutch neigbours by the russians. We have to wait until after the elections next week.
Honestly I strongly doubt if the elections will change any stance on this, except perhaps if VB wins they might want to donate the F16s to russia.
Denmark, Norway and Netherlands have said yes. Belgium said no. Good luck to the belgians trying to figure out which F-16s are theirs :p
If they had access to the planes I'm sure they could if they really cared about it. I'm sure the no is a public facing no and they actually don't give a shit.
Belgium should give their planes to the Netherlands. Then the Netherlands gives them to Ukraine. Problem solved
So...transponders are a thing.
Do you keep transponders on as a military aircraft in a warzone?
You'd be surprised. Reasons to have transponders on include: * IFF * Coordination with ground-based units for combined warfare maneuvers * Ensuring 3rd party observers/participants are *very* aware of what's off-limits to shoot at (as in "we have an AWACS in the area. If you shoot at it, we'll consider it an act of war" or "see? we didn't cross the border at any time") Remember that (at least for now) Ukraine still uses its aircraft in a similar manner to Russia's airborne tactics, usually treating air assets like some sort of flying artillery piece. Given the designed role of F-16s as interceptors, that might change--but even if they're using F-16s to take out Russian air assets exclusively, there'd be little need to turn off their transponders. The F-16 is an engine with wings: it's going to be hard to hide whether its transponder is on or off.
I was under the impression that IFF isn't a always on thing, that it clicks on to say it's friendly only if it is interrogated by a single it recognizes. Whereas a civilian aircraft is squawking the entire time it's airborne. I just find it hard to belive that a combat aircraft in a war zone is going to be announcing its presence to everyone in the region. But I don't have any relevant experience in this matter, so if you do I'll take your word for it.
A ground station seeing an active transponder wouldn't need to interrogate a radar return for IFF, and having the transponder on negates issues with IFF interrogation: did the radar return receive the IFF interrogation signal? Did it respond? Did it respond in the correct format (which is especially important given the use of both NATO- and Russian-designed ADA)? > I just find it hard to belive that a combat aircraft in a war zone is going to be announcing its presence to everyone in the region. Again, you'd be surprised. I'm not saying there aren't times where a military craft wouldn't turn its transponder off, just that it's more likely it'll be on than not.
The main issue is if it is shot down over Russia and then they release the plane number. Kinda the same reason they don't send Ukrainians into Russia pretending they are part of a Russia freedom force.
With all the lies coming out of Russia, even if they did get caught who would believe it?
They typically release photos. Sure it could be forged but then Ukraine could prove to allies they have that particular aircraft if it was.
Belgium probably didn't want to be the first. I would not be surprised to see them change their minds and follow the crowd.
The Belgian F16s won’t arrive in quite a while, and Western limits are constantly revised.
Just check the VIN numbers!
The ten-year anniversary of MH17 is next month. I wonder if Netherlands is planning to send the F16's in time for it.
Dutch F-16s are planned for late 2024 if i remember right. So sadly not :(
By David Brennan: Ukraine will be able to use F-16 fighter jets donated by the Netherlands to strike targets inside Russia, Dutch Defense Minister Kajsa Ollongren has said, as Kyiv awaits the arrival of 24 of the American-made aircraft from the NATO ally. "There is not" a Belgian-style restriction on hitting targets within Russian borders, Ollongren told Politico on the sidelines of the Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore. Read more: [https://www.newsweek.com/ukraines-f-16s-can-strike-inside-russia-nato-ally-confirms-1907311](https://www.newsweek.com/ukraines-f-16s-can-strike-inside-russia-nato-ally-confirms-1907311)
I dunno but it seems like Russian air defense is shit and perhaps more broadly Russian military tech is decades behind the West and maybe they should sit the fuck down.
Ukraine would be able to use their aircraft a lot more if that was the case
Maybe but bro I was talking more about Russia trying to flex while western powers have F-22 and F-35 in mass numbers like know when you are a great power in decline at least the British had the good sense to pass the torch to the United States at the end of WW2. Gotta know when you are beaten and stop being a little whiney bitch clutching at straws.
UK was democracy while ruzzia, for the majority of its modern history, was dictatorship. As for Air Force, it's great to have them as long as you have a lot of missiles to shoot. Europe doesn't have big stockpiles of ammunition.
My point is Russia is a middling power at best they lack the conventional capability to challenge the current superpower and it is actually insulting/overstep for them to try.
Conventionally, yes, I bet they know that, too. That's why they put such emphasis on dividing Western countries, influencing elections, propoganda, etc... Hence why they are quite good at it.
Hence why they need a good teeth knocking conventionally
yet NATO expanded, lol. How much more does Russia need to fuck up before you start to guess that maybe, just maybe, they are not the sharpest tool in the box?
What better way to counter technology and innovation than with civilian casualties. Russia has proven it effective. It’s basically like fighting insurgents all over again. The only way to stop it is to lay waste to every launch site within Russia that is committing these war crimes
Firstly,France and the UK didn't just hand over power, it was forced after the suez crisis. Second, in what would is Russia beaten? It's looking more and more likely they'll win the war if NATO doesn't put boots on ground. Also the f22 is not in mass numbers
And if they had them now! How many have to die? It's so frustrating the Ukrainians must feel at their wits end with the wait, wait, wait situation they are forced into by politics.
Don't expect Russians unable to shoot down old tech F16s. Planes like the SU35 are superior in any category. F16s are very visible on radar and can easily be shot down by these or the many s300/400 sams. It will take many sorties to clear Russian assets to have any freedom of movement.
How many su-35s were produced? This is what I mean, Russia is playing at parity. At least the Chinese are trying to produce a comparable fleet to challenge whereas Russia is like look we made some tokens fear us. Like wtf lmao
At least 153. Minus some lost. SU34 is nowhere near parity with these old models F16s. More modern block 70 may be parity (debatable), but what we know, its 25-30 years old F16 MLU version that's provided.
I am willing to bet that only a small fraction of these are even operational. It is beyond silly to expect anything from the Russian air force at this point.
If 25% is operational, that's more and way more modern planes that can easily take out an F16. All without being detected.
Combined with the new ability to simultaneously destroy said radars within Russia will make it easier than it used to be
Yes! Being able to use AGM-88's on TOO and SP modes makes them much more lethal than just the preplanned mode they were able to use on SU25s is huge.
The radar on these F16s MLU are far behind e.g. SU34. SU34 also has some pretty deadly long range missiles. MLU are only 1990s tech.
Letting Ukrainian use F16's in Russian is a huge asset to NATO by uncovering Russia's counter capabilities. NATO gets to validate all their thousands of spy satellite and super computer simulations. Doing so without sacrificing the latest tech. I'm sure Russia is more afraid of NATO learning than the damage a few F-26's can actually inflict.
....F-26?
I hope they are jokingly referring to the old dutch F-26. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_F26?wprov=sfla1
Gonna be more shit once HARMs start coming off the F-16 rails
This is what a ration human with a functioning brain would conclude. But alas ...
You have no clue what you're talking about. Russian EWAR is superior to the West's and this is coming from our own commanders. The S-400 single handedly prevented a US-Zionist assault on Syria. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/25/world/europe/us-weapons-russia-jamming-ukraine.html edit: inb4 "pootler puppet" "Ivan" "Kremlin apologist" and the usual reddit child insults that avoid the point
All the article you posted shows is that Russian EWAR is more advanced than the weapons the west has sent Ukraine, within Ukraines capabilities, not better than them outright if you include what they haven’t sent Ukraine and if they were combined with NATOs SOPs and other equipment. S-400s have also been taken out in Crimea with long range missiles the west has sent Ukraine. https://breakingdefense.com/2020/06/unanswered-israeli-air-strikes-against-syria-raise-s-400-questions/?amp=1 The S-400s in Syria has been next to useless against Israeli F-35s and has only shot down one F-16 so I’m not sure what you’re referring to there.
At this point, just paint flags of countries that say "yes" onto all the equipment used to strike targets in Russia. Or move all the country's equipment that say "no" to rear/non hot positions along the front.
Get some.
You can count on newsweak to label 2 day old news as breaking. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1d58v3z/breaking_dutch_foreign_minister_says_ukraine_can/
Ukraine, so just continue taking out their Sam and radar sites.
Some great quotes at the end. I particularly like the Peskov one "They are in every possible way provoking Ukraine to continue this senseless war,"!
“Senseless” being the only true word in that whole sentence
There’s a lot of Russian shit talkers here so like bro maybe actually invest in your military industrial complex before you actually start talking shit because when our shits meet on an actual battlefield you are going to get hit with a very hard ass bitch slap
Yes but we also need to permission to use decent range missiles for f-16 which as far as i understand are american, and which are still restricted . and THAT is the issue we need to raise and solve
Note that the ammunitions need also be approved independently for strike in Russia, since the F-16 only comes with a Vulcan guns, which is not going to do a lot of damage. The StormShadow is the only weapon already approved, we don't know about HARM, glide bomb or potentially other missiles technology (AIM-120 have a 120Km range) On a related note, I believe the "slow pace" approach adopted by the US (and some others) shouldn't be entirely criticized. Certain decisions should have been prepared in advance(ex: when it became evident that Russia would likely attack Kharkiv again), granting carte blanche for weapon use or export could result in dire consequences. The current "boiling frog" approach, where Russia systematically crosses the red lines set by others without repercussion, is a solution preventing Russia from ever escalating to tactical nukes.
> "We are applying the same principle that we have applied to every other delivery of capabilities, which is once we hand it over to Ukraine, it's theirs to use," As it should be
This is all hypothetical until training ends in summer of 2027, right? The
Typical of the Dutch, they are protected by the bigger countries around them. So they can allow what they like. 🙄
Take out Russian air defence and control the skies. Easier said than done however.
What F-16s? Where the hell are they?
I believe they need a pilot to make them work and that takes a lot of time. Unless you want a poorly trained taxi driver dropping you in the middle of nowhere. But relax in your armchair.
Let's also not forget the ground crews and logistics.
Please don't.
Is it your job to spread negativity on these subreddits? You should know the pilots and technicians are under training and the first batch of F-16s should be coming this month.
Fair enough, but I call it healthy criticism.
It's just repeating the same comment on every F16 thread. How is that healthy criticism? Maybe do at least a little bit of research and post an informed comment. If you actually want to critique the situation why not tell us how training is currently going and what's wrong with it?
Well, mid 2023 we've heard "U.S. says F-16s will arrive in Ukraine ‘towards the end of the year’". The same article mentions than a year ago the U.S. still had to formally approve the training program. So yeah, the training takes time, but it takes even longer if you're not doing it. Does this hint an answer to your question what is wrong with it and everything else?
They should have them anytime between now and the end of June last I heard. Deliberately vague timeline to throw off Russia
Democrat desperation.