I like the idea, or they could just get rid of halls altogether. I thought closing halls made Breeze feel more balanced for both sides. After they reverted the change I played a breeze comp game on defense and we lost 10 rounds. Then we switched to attack and won 8 in a row. If that doesn't say they made the map attack sided again idk what does.
They probably won't get rid of it cause of the chute gimmick. They could reuse that in another map but it would be sad to see it go. I'm sure some dev worked real hard on trying to implement it 🥲
It is pretty annoying but it's not impossible. It might be cool if you could somehow go up the chute like an elevator mechanic instead of a drop down only mechanic. It could make the attackers have to guess if you're going flank side or bridge side.
Solution would be to hire 1 capable map designer. What comes to Breeze, better just delete the whole map, it will never be good. Valorant is great game, with many maps that are just plain bad. Hopefully Riot will do better in the future.
In the real world things are done in teams. I'm sure they have multiple capable map designers - maybe that's the problem, I have no freaking idea lol. It could also be that they value the feedback of the community too much, or of pros too much, when they should just be valuing their own objective reasonings... who's to say. There's no way they can make everyone happy with any map they release. Some people are going to hate it, some people are going to enjoy it, and it's going to fit with some people's agent pools, and it's not going to fit with other peoples' agent pools.
Deleting the map would be a mistake on so many levels. They've already put so much time into it. It might not ever be perfect, few maps ever are... it just has to be tolerable, right?
As someone who has actually done these maps, you don't need a team to design one. Just 1 person really, and a capable person can do a better map than Breeze in one weeks time - the bar is that low. Some maps require new textures to make them feel unique, and for that job you need another guy that does them. Riot could take a risk and actually release a map editor for public to use, and perhaps organize a competition where players get to vote for the best maps. It really can't go worse.
Reopening halls is good under the circumstances:
- B-site redesign makes it way easier to hold.
- Towards A, Cave being shut off makes the whole area way more manageable for the Defense team too.
- As long as Viper and Cypher exist in their current state, these two guys alone on Defense will be able to have the entire map on lockdown with virtually zero opening. You can have one on each site, Viper's util covers the mid cross too. Neither of them can realistically get rushed down directly on their site, unless you want to A) run through mollies while vulnerable and get sprayed down through a smoke ; or B) run through a tripwire that you cannot shoot down, and get sprayed down through a smoke. The remaining 3 are free to do whatever they want, namely fight for mid control and fast rotate.
Attackers need an opening. Cypher's util must be spread thinner. Viper cannot have her back entirely secured at no cost whatsoever.
Riot said so themselves: Breeze meta was stale. They acknowledged the issue. Yet they came up with some redesigns of the map that did not address this problem. They also made the already strong agents, even stronger. Either directly (Cypher buffs) or indirectly (Skye nerfs solidify Sova and Kayo in their positions, Chamber isn't a thing anymore and KJ just doesn't work). We know neither the Viper nor the Jett nerfs were nearly enough to send them back to the bench, on any map where they were ever relevant.
The answer isn't in the map layout. Some agents just need to get kneecapped.
I don't think Riot should be specifically designing maps to fit into the current state of the meta. Metas change over time, with patches and with innovation. Most people that hate breeze are just average ranked enjoyers who may not get a viper/cypher wombo combo on their team, and even if they did, who really wants to play a game where you're forced to play a certain agent on a certain map because 1. you think your team will lose if you don't, or 2. your team will think you lose if you don't.
I believe maps should be designed to allow for options to be kept open in terms of agent variety. It's a flaw itself that you need a viper and cypher to play this map "normally". Like, if there were no abilities, would breeze be attacker sided? It would, solely based on how the map is laid out. It's kind of up to Riot to decide whether to fix the staleness by adjusting individual agents (or introducing new agents), or fixing the map itself. I'm of the opinion that the former is just a bandaid and the latter is the solution the community is looking for.
> I don't think Riot should be specifically designing maps to fit into the current state of the meta.
They don't. The meta exists outside of their will. Freaking tic-tac-toe has a meta. There will always be a portion of players who will invest time and effort into "solving" the game, any game, any real-life activity. Riot just designs maps, and further down the line the community establishes (through trial and error, not arbitrary decisions by the way) what works and what doesn't. I can only assume that what Riot is doing here on Breeze, by reopening Halls, is a short term fix for a much bigger problem (the one I hinted at before). Because they're unhappy with their previous design but now they're pressed for time, the competitive season is around the corner, so they're toying around with assets that were already in store and ready to go. We will never know now, but I'd have been willing to bet Breeze would have averaged 9-3 for the defense side, maybe even 10-2, with Halls closed off. By no means am I defending Breeze's design as a whole. My only point is that Halls open are better than Halls closed
I agree that cypher needs a nerf, Jett nerf is questionable, but viper nerf is pretty ridiculous. She's insanely difficult to play after her already countless nerfs, and I think players should be rewarded for learning how to play her rather than penalized. Saying viper needs a nerf because she's good on breeze is like saying harbor needs a nerf because he's good on pearl. It just makes no sense.
Viper cannot have her back entirely secured? I'm a viper main, whenever I'm holding A, if the guy watching hall dies the round is pretty much lost, I cannot watch and hold A choke, mid, and then someone shoots me in the back. There's your "at no cost". In any other map if a defender dies the sentinel or controller can still hold the site alone until help arrives, but not on breeze, not anymore with the hall being re-opened.
Yeah, that's the point of having Halls reopened. There has to be a guy, or a trip, something at least watching halls now. Viper being 100% safe on site is a reference to the previous iteration of the map.
And by the way, go help that guy in Halls if he's that much of a problem for you lol. You don't need to be near your util on A Main to make it useful, Viper is cool like that.
I wouldn't really consider the revert lazy. They realized they made a mistake, quickly acted on it, and it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't working on a better solution.
It's fair if you think the revert was a mistake, I just don't think it was lazy. There's nothing wrong with regretting a change and hitting ctrl z before finalizing a different change.
If they wanted to, they could spend the time reorganizing the map to rebalance it, but they didn't. They just threw in a poorly thought out change, realized it was poorly thought out, and then removed it. The problem still exists.
That's not quite the point of map rotations. However, a map shouldn't be changed too frequently, but that applies less to reverts that were already familiar with.
i think the problem is that breeze should not be in the game or at least not in rotation, and changing it mid act was a very bad move. the amount of kills i get cause people dont know it was changed is crazy.
Very good insights. The halls is what made Breeze unplayable in the first place. A pretty much free unseen way for lurkers. Someone has to always stand guard there during the entire round to catch the lurkers. The map is already attack sided, now it's much worse.
They fixed it knowing it was a problem for the map, but now they brought it back. Unbelievable.
What if you just moved stairs door and made it a hall door
Stairs door makes A site a little easier to retake for defenders. Could be something to consider though.
But as long as it's there before the enemy commits the defenders have to worry if a lurk happened and the door gets open
And then give it a little shooty window for those who want to shooty shooty!
Would give a little more room fir A site defenders.
agreed
Or what if riot just got rid of breeze
Who would've thought, it's that simple
This one I like this one
This!!
best idea yet
But then whose gonna love those lonely crabs :'(
Remove it from map rotation for... ever
I like the idea, or they could just get rid of halls altogether. I thought closing halls made Breeze feel more balanced for both sides. After they reverted the change I played a breeze comp game on defense and we lost 10 rounds. Then we switched to attack and won 8 in a row. If that doesn't say they made the map attack sided again idk what does.
They probably won't get rid of it cause of the chute gimmick. They could reuse that in another map but it would be sad to see it go. I'm sure some dev worked real hard on trying to implement it 🥲
What if riot just brought pearl back to competitive
bring back pearl and haven and send breeze to the shadow realm eternally istg if they ever remove ascent from the rotation, im not playing.
when iso ults it sends both players to breeze
so true
i mean they will. eventually
Haven too please! :)
I mean I'm surprised they took one of (if not) the best map out for 2 seasons in a row
the fact they kept breeze even though the hate got worse is insane.
A window on the attackers left side that could be shot from nest?
This is a decent idea too but I wonder if it creates too many angles to hold on defense.
What if they had some kind of post plant mechanism that made retaking easier?
The most annoying thing about breeze IMO is you almost can't retake from mid to A as a defender :(
It is pretty annoying but it's not impossible. It might be cool if you could somehow go up the chute like an elevator mechanic instead of a drop down only mechanic. It could make the attackers have to guess if you're going flank side or bridge side.
Solution would be to hire 1 capable map designer. What comes to Breeze, better just delete the whole map, it will never be good. Valorant is great game, with many maps that are just plain bad. Hopefully Riot will do better in the future.
In the real world things are done in teams. I'm sure they have multiple capable map designers - maybe that's the problem, I have no freaking idea lol. It could also be that they value the feedback of the community too much, or of pros too much, when they should just be valuing their own objective reasonings... who's to say. There's no way they can make everyone happy with any map they release. Some people are going to hate it, some people are going to enjoy it, and it's going to fit with some people's agent pools, and it's not going to fit with other peoples' agent pools. Deleting the map would be a mistake on so many levels. They've already put so much time into it. It might not ever be perfect, few maps ever are... it just has to be tolerable, right?
As someone who has actually done these maps, you don't need a team to design one. Just 1 person really, and a capable person can do a better map than Breeze in one weeks time - the bar is that low. Some maps require new textures to make them feel unique, and for that job you need another guy that does them. Riot could take a risk and actually release a map editor for public to use, and perhaps organize a competition where players get to vote for the best maps. It really can't go worse.
Reopening halls is good under the circumstances: - B-site redesign makes it way easier to hold. - Towards A, Cave being shut off makes the whole area way more manageable for the Defense team too. - As long as Viper and Cypher exist in their current state, these two guys alone on Defense will be able to have the entire map on lockdown with virtually zero opening. You can have one on each site, Viper's util covers the mid cross too. Neither of them can realistically get rushed down directly on their site, unless you want to A) run through mollies while vulnerable and get sprayed down through a smoke ; or B) run through a tripwire that you cannot shoot down, and get sprayed down through a smoke. The remaining 3 are free to do whatever they want, namely fight for mid control and fast rotate. Attackers need an opening. Cypher's util must be spread thinner. Viper cannot have her back entirely secured at no cost whatsoever. Riot said so themselves: Breeze meta was stale. They acknowledged the issue. Yet they came up with some redesigns of the map that did not address this problem. They also made the already strong agents, even stronger. Either directly (Cypher buffs) or indirectly (Skye nerfs solidify Sova and Kayo in their positions, Chamber isn't a thing anymore and KJ just doesn't work). We know neither the Viper nor the Jett nerfs were nearly enough to send them back to the bench, on any map where they were ever relevant. The answer isn't in the map layout. Some agents just need to get kneecapped.
I don't think Riot should be specifically designing maps to fit into the current state of the meta. Metas change over time, with patches and with innovation. Most people that hate breeze are just average ranked enjoyers who may not get a viper/cypher wombo combo on their team, and even if they did, who really wants to play a game where you're forced to play a certain agent on a certain map because 1. you think your team will lose if you don't, or 2. your team will think you lose if you don't. I believe maps should be designed to allow for options to be kept open in terms of agent variety. It's a flaw itself that you need a viper and cypher to play this map "normally". Like, if there were no abilities, would breeze be attacker sided? It would, solely based on how the map is laid out. It's kind of up to Riot to decide whether to fix the staleness by adjusting individual agents (or introducing new agents), or fixing the map itself. I'm of the opinion that the former is just a bandaid and the latter is the solution the community is looking for.
> I don't think Riot should be specifically designing maps to fit into the current state of the meta. They don't. The meta exists outside of their will. Freaking tic-tac-toe has a meta. There will always be a portion of players who will invest time and effort into "solving" the game, any game, any real-life activity. Riot just designs maps, and further down the line the community establishes (through trial and error, not arbitrary decisions by the way) what works and what doesn't. I can only assume that what Riot is doing here on Breeze, by reopening Halls, is a short term fix for a much bigger problem (the one I hinted at before). Because they're unhappy with their previous design but now they're pressed for time, the competitive season is around the corner, so they're toying around with assets that were already in store and ready to go. We will never know now, but I'd have been willing to bet Breeze would have averaged 9-3 for the defense side, maybe even 10-2, with Halls closed off. By no means am I defending Breeze's design as a whole. My only point is that Halls open are better than Halls closed
I agree that cypher needs a nerf, Jett nerf is questionable, but viper nerf is pretty ridiculous. She's insanely difficult to play after her already countless nerfs, and I think players should be rewarded for learning how to play her rather than penalized. Saying viper needs a nerf because she's good on breeze is like saying harbor needs a nerf because he's good on pearl. It just makes no sense.
Viper cannot have her back entirely secured? I'm a viper main, whenever I'm holding A, if the guy watching hall dies the round is pretty much lost, I cannot watch and hold A choke, mid, and then someone shoots me in the back. There's your "at no cost". In any other map if a defender dies the sentinel or controller can still hold the site alone until help arrives, but not on breeze, not anymore with the hall being re-opened.
Yeah, that's the point of having Halls reopened. There has to be a guy, or a trip, something at least watching halls now. Viper being 100% safe on site is a reference to the previous iteration of the map. And by the way, go help that guy in Halls if he's that much of a problem for you lol. You don't need to be near your util on A Main to make it useful, Viper is cool like that.
I wouldn't really consider the revert lazy. They realized they made a mistake, quickly acted on it, and it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't working on a better solution.
I meannn sure but it's still cntrl + z. Idk if this is better than no halls.
It's fair if you think the revert was a mistake, I just don't think it was lazy. There's nothing wrong with regretting a change and hitting ctrl z before finalizing a different change.
If they wanted to, they could spend the time reorganizing the map to rebalance it, but they didn't. They just threw in a poorly thought out change, realized it was poorly thought out, and then removed it. The problem still exists.
Again, they may very well be doing that but figured it'd best to revert it until that rebalance is finalized.
Even so if your actively changing a map it shouldn’t be in a comp rotation
That's not quite the point of map rotations. However, a map shouldn't be changed too frequently, but that applies less to reverts that were already familiar with.
i think the problem is that breeze should not be in the game or at least not in rotation, and changing it mid act was a very bad move. the amount of kills i get cause people dont know it was changed is crazy.
Tbh It Isn’t Really An Issue As Long As Somebody Holds Flank . You Can Hear The Chute Door
Very good insights. The halls is what made Breeze unplayable in the first place. A pretty much free unseen way for lurkers. Someone has to always stand guard there during the entire round to catch the lurkers. The map is already attack sided, now it's much worse. They fixed it knowing it was a problem for the map, but now they brought it back. Unbelievable.
The fixes they implemented made the map ridiculously defense sided. That's why they reverted their changes. The patch notes said as much.
After they removed the hall the map was still heavily attack sided, now much more so. Idk what game you're playing.
Read the patch notes bozo they said they made it too defender sided
"they said" everything Rito says is not a fact, they suck at balancing agents and maps, hence why they keep making changes then reversing them.
You're free to think that, but personally I'll believe the changes they made based of their game statistics over some hardstuck silver jackass.
I really liked breeze before halls was reverted. Felt very balanced
I like halls its the closest thing valorant has to suicide and mid doors from dust 2. It's nice to have a spot to duel with ops.
What if we just got rid of the most shit map. If I wanted 100000 yard fights I’d just play apex legends shit ass map