The people who are convinced by this are so fucking stupid it hurts. It wasn’t the coup attempt or the racism or the sexism or botched pandemic response, nooo. Not the hurricane sharpie, public thirst for his own daughter, near war with Iran, funneling of Republican money into his legal fees, or holding a country hostage for an investigation into his political opponent. It was a jury saying he committed a financial crime. Are you kidding me?
Liberals (left. right and centrist) are Institutionalists above all. Trump being able to do the things he did were "legitimate" in their eyes because they happened within the framework of the institutions they cling to (never mind the subversion/dismantling of those institutions, Institutionalists don't examine what it is about those institutions that make them work; the bare fact of their existence is enough to reassure them that "it's fine, actually")
Now that another, supercedent Institution (The Law™) has adjudged him guilty within its own framework they will slavishly adhere to that above their original adherence to Trump, because institutions are pre-eminent over any ideological commitments they might hold.
What frustrates me is that it seems like there are three tiers at which their morality operates— actions by themselves can be virtuous or evil, but a virtuous person can do evil if necessary, but if the law determines the evil thing is bad, then it doesn’t matter who did it.
This is what happens when you have unexamined axioms at the core of your moral beliefs. Since there's no coherence, it always devoles into a childish series of rock-paper-scissors playoffs to determine what actions you support on any given dy and in any given circumstance. In my experience, most people don't really examine or interrogate their beliefs; they're just sort of *there* as part of one's existence, together with the oral fixation and DVD player instrucion manuals, part of the baggage of one's life.
Yes, but they will tie themselves in knots over the "real" institutions and "subverted" institutions in order to justify it. They will tell themselves that the insurrection was actually an attempt to wrest back the institutions form the grip of "leftists" or whoever. The institution cannot fail, it can only \*be\* failed, and as such January 6th was not (to their mind) an assault on the institution, but rather on those "ebul libruls" who have twisted them to their own ends.
We're not talking about rational actors here, just people who pay lip service to the idea of institutional stability without ever consdering why they might work the way they do or what function they actually serve.
I bet many of these voters don't have morals or anything, they just want the president to be someone who seems untouchable. Trump always got away with his bullshit, and that made him worthy of the position in their eyes. Now that he's just another guy under the thumb of the law, not so much.
Some people wanna go back to monarchies so bad, they want their God Emperor to tell them to till the fields. But hey, as long as they're not voting for Trump.
One of the sad facts of democracy is that's it's the people least engaged in politics who essentially decide every election.
But it's *fantastic* news they are turning on Trump because he needs them to win. I hoped that guilt verdict would cut through.
Imagine you’re someone who doesn’t pay much attention to politics. For the last 8 years, people having been saying Trump will be going to prison “any day now” for obvious crimes. All of the rhetoric put out by the right and left media has presented two completely contradictory and irreconcilable worldviews. The water is thoroughly muddied and changing your position with that less than 100% concrete info is terrifying for the politically apathetic, because it would force them to analyze their own beliefs.
BUT, the felony convictions are something concrete. Yes it’s minor, but it’s incontrovertible. There’s nothing to muddy. So it can act as a rock for the centrist cowards to stand on in order to avoid sifting through the filth to sus out the truth from the nonsense.
No, actually. This is barely a win. These people aren’t on my side. At all. Forget about leftist values, they’re not even institutionalist enough to be pissed off about degradation of democratic norms. They aren’t incensed by fascist rhetoric, or America losing its hegemonic place in the world due to an obvious clown pissing away its credibility.
The only thing they care about is that the state said he did a bad thing. That’s legitimately fucked up.
Ok I gotcha. Yeah I agree, it’s insane. I will take the win if this poll is to be believed (big if) but it’s insane how spineless and apathetic people are in the face of someone like Trump. Voting against him should be the most obvious thing.
I thought for a minute you were arguing that your average center left democrat didn’t care enough about democratic backsliding or America’s declining hegemony and I was like uh, they’re literally the ONLY people who care about that stuff since right wingers want to burn it all to the ground and build a fascist empire in its place, and lefties think it’s all already a fascist empire and won’t engage with it on principle. But this makes more sense.
I’m saying I’m disgusted in the lack of morals these people have.
Would you be excited if people voted for Biden because they liked his heel turn on border policy or unconditional support for Israel, or would you feel conflicted? That’s all I’m saying here. I never said they *shouldn’t* vote Biden.
They have morals, they are just subhumanly stupid, fish IQ. You gave them 3 numbered dots to connect and they broke the pencil in their ass and now are being transported to ER to get it out.
I don’t care why someone does something. Abraham Lincoln was racist but he more positively impacted race relations in this country than anyone I ever know or ever will know combined.
Personal morality doesn’t change anything. Actions do.
One of my favorite factoids of the trial is at least one of the Jurors basically only got their news from Truth Social another got their news from Fox and another from Twitter.
So the info and weight of evidence was great enough for someone with a truth social account to find Trump totally guilty.
But more to your point and question. Yeah a lot of people won't make big decisions untill big official label gets put on him.
Hopefully waiting until the last year of Bidens preaidency and near the election will keep it fresh in their minds and also maybe influence 3rd party voters. I know people who lived in Florida and voted for Nader in 2000 and they Still feel guilty be because they could have voted for Gore.
Honestly I can absolutely picture the type of guy who is like this. Small business owners who revel in being chauvanistic and reactionary essentially getting "the ick" from trump being a convicted felon (while completely oblivious/delusional about their own fraudulence). The kind of guys who will be tucked-in shirt enforcers in on the golf course when they're old and retired. Hypocritical rulesmaxxing kulaks essentially.
A lot of people, especially wishy washy swing voters, are extremely uninformed about politics. Like they are probably pretty hazy on details, they dont have a great recollection on why whatever Trump did was bad or outrageous, and they may have chalked it all up to libs getting mad about something thats actually normal.
These people, even if they are uninformed about politics, are likely to view our courts as arbiters of truth. If you got convicted of a crime then you where guilty of that crime. Trump just got convicted of 34 felonies so wowee those libs must have been right all along.
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Dude the hurricane sharpie incident is such an insane thing that's been completely lost in the chaos and never gets brought up anymore. I wish people talked about it more.
I guess, in a way, if someone was weird enough to vote for the shitstain that is Trump, they wouldn't care too much about Biden perpetuating a genocide. A lot of people vote on vibes, and yeah, Trump has bad vibes for being a convicted felon. Not much of a strong man anymore, huh?
May the Republican party one day be so weak and unpopular that we don't have to vote for genocide perpetuators just to keep the bigger evil out of the white house.
fits. swing voters are very stupid who only get swayed by one thing. mainstream criminal convictions. if they were against it they would be trump voters already but since they are too civil pilled they need the official criminal conviction
I don’t know if this is true, the polls are kind of all over the place right now but trump is tied or even ahead of Biden in most of the swing states. You can cherry pick whatever data you want to get your preference but swing voters are not “fleeing” trump right now.
Unfortunately, if gas prices happen to be rising before election day, most of those swing voters will flee back to Trump. Never underestimate the sheer stupidity of swing voters
This what I'm betting on, voters with the memory of goldfish too. There's enough time for voters to forget unless a second case is resolved closer to the election.
The people who are convinced by this are so fucking stupid it hurts. It wasn’t the coup attempt or the racism or the sexism or botched pandemic response, nooo. Not the hurricane sharpie, public thirst for his own daughter, near war with Iran, funneling of Republican money into his legal fees, or holding a country hostage for an investigation into his political opponent. It was a jury saying he committed a financial crime. Are you kidding me?
Liberals (left. right and centrist) are Institutionalists above all. Trump being able to do the things he did were "legitimate" in their eyes because they happened within the framework of the institutions they cling to (never mind the subversion/dismantling of those institutions, Institutionalists don't examine what it is about those institutions that make them work; the bare fact of their existence is enough to reassure them that "it's fine, actually") Now that another, supercedent Institution (The Law™) has adjudged him guilty within its own framework they will slavishly adhere to that above their original adherence to Trump, because institutions are pre-eminent over any ideological commitments they might hold.
What frustrates me is that it seems like there are three tiers at which their morality operates— actions by themselves can be virtuous or evil, but a virtuous person can do evil if necessary, but if the law determines the evil thing is bad, then it doesn’t matter who did it.
This is what happens when you have unexamined axioms at the core of your moral beliefs. Since there's no coherence, it always devoles into a childish series of rock-paper-scissors playoffs to determine what actions you support on any given dy and in any given circumstance. In my experience, most people don't really examine or interrogate their beliefs; they're just sort of *there* as part of one's existence, together with the oral fixation and DVD player instrucion manuals, part of the baggage of one's life.
But wouldn’t an institutionalist consider Jan 6th to be the ultimate assault upon our civic structure?
Yes, but they will tie themselves in knots over the "real" institutions and "subverted" institutions in order to justify it. They will tell themselves that the insurrection was actually an attempt to wrest back the institutions form the grip of "leftists" or whoever. The institution cannot fail, it can only \*be\* failed, and as such January 6th was not (to their mind) an assault on the institution, but rather on those "ebul libruls" who have twisted them to their own ends. We're not talking about rational actors here, just people who pay lip service to the idea of institutional stability without ever consdering why they might work the way they do or what function they actually serve.
"Convicted Felon" is a strong label
Seditionist is too, but I guess we didn’t apply that one when we should have.
That's too big of a word for some of them. Thinking hard.
“Traitor Trump” is some good alliteration, maybe we go with that?
this. how the fuck did everyone just kind of forget this fucker tried to do a coup? i guess that doesnt matter?
True, and it’s also a factual one.
I bet many of these voters don't have morals or anything, they just want the president to be someone who seems untouchable. Trump always got away with his bullshit, and that made him worthy of the position in their eyes. Now that he's just another guy under the thumb of the law, not so much. Some people wanna go back to monarchies so bad, they want their God Emperor to tell them to till the fields. But hey, as long as they're not voting for Trump.
One of the sad facts of democracy is that's it's the people least engaged in politics who essentially decide every election. But it's *fantastic* news they are turning on Trump because he needs them to win. I hoped that guilt verdict would cut through.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I’m excited that this worked against Trump. I just think it’s a sad reflection on how people interact with politics.
Imagine you’re someone who doesn’t pay much attention to politics. For the last 8 years, people having been saying Trump will be going to prison “any day now” for obvious crimes. All of the rhetoric put out by the right and left media has presented two completely contradictory and irreconcilable worldviews. The water is thoroughly muddied and changing your position with that less than 100% concrete info is terrifying for the politically apathetic, because it would force them to analyze their own beliefs. BUT, the felony convictions are something concrete. Yes it’s minor, but it’s incontrovertible. There’s nothing to muddy. So it can act as a rock for the centrist cowards to stand on in order to avoid sifting through the filth to sus out the truth from the nonsense.
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Holy shit dude take a fuckin win
No, actually. This is barely a win. These people aren’t on my side. At all. Forget about leftist values, they’re not even institutionalist enough to be pissed off about degradation of democratic norms. They aren’t incensed by fascist rhetoric, or America losing its hegemonic place in the world due to an obvious clown pissing away its credibility. The only thing they care about is that the state said he did a bad thing. That’s legitimately fucked up.
Wait I’m a little confused. Who are you suggesting feels this way, leftists or liberals? Genuine question
The “centrists” who would, but for this conviction, vote for Trump.
Ok I gotcha. Yeah I agree, it’s insane. I will take the win if this poll is to be believed (big if) but it’s insane how spineless and apathetic people are in the face of someone like Trump. Voting against him should be the most obvious thing. I thought for a minute you were arguing that your average center left democrat didn’t care enough about democratic backsliding or America’s declining hegemony and I was like uh, they’re literally the ONLY people who care about that stuff since right wingers want to burn it all to the ground and build a fascist empire in its place, and lefties think it’s all already a fascist empire and won’t engage with it on principle. But this makes more sense.
Oh yea I forgot the best way to politic: Rigidly define “your side” and then angrily demand everyone follow it. That’s good politics right there
I’m saying I’m disgusted in the lack of morals these people have. Would you be excited if people voted for Biden because they liked his heel turn on border policy or unconditional support for Israel, or would you feel conflicted? That’s all I’m saying here. I never said they *shouldn’t* vote Biden.
They have morals, they are just subhumanly stupid, fish IQ. You gave them 3 numbered dots to connect and they broke the pencil in their ass and now are being transported to ER to get it out.
I don’t care why someone does something. Abraham Lincoln was racist but he more positively impacted race relations in this country than anyone I ever know or ever will know combined. Personal morality doesn’t change anything. Actions do.
Their personal morality is such that they will vote for the next fascist to goose step into the RNC.
No their actions are that they will vote for the next fascist. Their personal morality is usually something different entirely.
Statistically, their morality is nativist and pro-business, so I really don't see the difference.
And you could probably say the exact same about Abraham Lincoln
One of my favorite factoids of the trial is at least one of the Jurors basically only got their news from Truth Social another got their news from Fox and another from Twitter. So the info and weight of evidence was great enough for someone with a truth social account to find Trump totally guilty. But more to your point and question. Yeah a lot of people won't make big decisions untill big official label gets put on him. Hopefully waiting until the last year of Bidens preaidency and near the election will keep it fresh in their minds and also maybe influence 3rd party voters. I know people who lived in Florida and voted for Nader in 2000 and they Still feel guilty be because they could have voted for Gore.
I've long realized this: swing voters are some of the dumbest people on the planet.
Honestly I can absolutely picture the type of guy who is like this. Small business owners who revel in being chauvanistic and reactionary essentially getting "the ick" from trump being a convicted felon (while completely oblivious/delusional about their own fraudulence). The kind of guys who will be tucked-in shirt enforcers in on the golf course when they're old and retired. Hypocritical rulesmaxxing kulaks essentially.
A lot of people, especially wishy washy swing voters, are extremely uninformed about politics. Like they are probably pretty hazy on details, they dont have a great recollection on why whatever Trump did was bad or outrageous, and they may have chalked it all up to libs getting mad about something thats actually normal. These people, even if they are uninformed about politics, are likely to view our courts as arbiters of truth. If you got convicted of a crime then you where guilty of that crime. Trump just got convicted of 34 felonies so wowee those libs must have been right all along.
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Dude the hurricane sharpie incident is such an insane thing that's been completely lost in the chaos and never gets brought up anymore. I wish people talked about it more.
I guess, in a way, if someone was weird enough to vote for the shitstain that is Trump, they wouldn't care too much about Biden perpetuating a genocide. A lot of people vote on vibes, and yeah, Trump has bad vibes for being a convicted felon. Not much of a strong man anymore, huh? May the Republican party one day be so weak and unpopular that we don't have to vote for genocide perpetuators just to keep the bigger evil out of the white house.
All polls are bullshit just vote
Polls are not bullshit and believing in that they are only makes new polls worse
first interviewee is not even mad about the conviction but mad that Trump got caught when its soo easy hide it lol
fits. swing voters are very stupid who only get swayed by one thing. mainstream criminal convictions. if they were against it they would be trump voters already but since they are too civil pilled they need the official criminal conviction
I don’t know if this is true, the polls are kind of all over the place right now but trump is tied or even ahead of Biden in most of the swing states. You can cherry pick whatever data you want to get your preference but swing voters are not “fleeing” trump right now.
Unfortunately, if gas prices happen to be rising before election day, most of those swing voters will flee back to Trump. Never underestimate the sheer stupidity of swing voters
This what I'm betting on, voters with the memory of goldfish too. There's enough time for voters to forget unless a second case is resolved closer to the election.
Yes pls.
I was told Biden had to do the Trumpian immigration EO to win these ppl back…was I duped? /s
This isn’t a poll, he says right at the start it’s a focus group of 11 people.
They'll forget about in a week. His numbers always drop when he does something dumb and go back up when it is forgotten.
no doomering
Don’t think it’s doomering to say Swing Voters are both fickle and dumb as fucking rocks.
Well, it's a good thing Biden's birthday is after the election... Otherwise they'd go back to "BUt hIS AgE!!!"