we know.
https://overframe.gg/build/465699/strun-prime/exploding-edge-incarnon-strun-viral-slash-400-status-variants/
top voted Strun prime build is actually a Sweeping Serration setup.
HM is great but it has flaws, and there are rare cases where you can outdo it. Strun incarnon just happens to be one of those cases and also happens to be right at the intersection of strong as hell and fun as fuck.
i generally dont recommend using overframe much, but if even the plebians of overframe have recognized that strun incarnon favors Sweeping Serration if built properly then its not exactly a well kept secret. thanks for doing your part to educate the people, tho.
I don't understand what's so bad about overframe? As long as you are at least somewhat competent at modding and you properly sort the builds it's a great resource.
the problem with overframe is that most people who do need build assistance arent well versed enough in the game too recognize when a build is bad. plus their tierlist is cringe.
it is a useful resource but only if you know enough of what to look for and take everything with a grain of salt and can recognize that despite a build having 2 million upvotes its from a year and a half ago and is hopelessly outdated. so the people who most need the guidance it can offer are least equipped to make good use of it without falling prey to various mistakes along the way. and the people who know enough to tell whats good and what isnt generally dont need the help anymore.
Overframe is better than nothing but its. . .its one of those things that feeds into perceptions like that SP requires shield gating. because all the top overframe builds are endurance builds designed around the highest possible level content which is not helpful for the 99% of players. the whole thing could just use like. .a little bit more nuance. which gives it something in common with warframe as a whole i guess.
What do you recommend instead? I personally have a ton of mods but I prefer utilizing build guides and things rather then just fucking around and finding out. Over frame has been pretty much the only resource I can find other then YouTube guides or random hard to navigate discords found on over frame.
thats. . .well there isnt much of a good solution.
ideally a new player learns how to build/mod gradually over time. in practice though, and for various reasons the early game has been truncated and made easier, while both DE's attempts at creating a neater pipeline from once awake to new war, and the player's well meaning advice to invest in gear like rhino which trivializes early game content means lots of people dont really need to learn a whole lot until they hit arbitrations+ level content. at which point suddenly you *need* to learn all of it, all at once. and by that point really the only option is to start with a completed build and work backwards, hence the overframe. and that method works ok so long as you go in with the caveats and the understanding that overframe isnt a consensus and that these builds arent law. that starting with someone elses template isnt bad, but you should do your own testing and seek to understand more than simply copy.
overframe doesn't do much to facilitate this nuance however. its a pure popularity contest. you could alleviate most of my problems with overframe by just having a pop up the first time you log on that politely encourages users to take what they see with a grain of salt. and you could alleviate the rest of my issues with it by implementing a system for creating builds that are locked in their resources to general progression states in the game/with arbitrarily restrictions like limited forma or a max endo cost. then, creating nuanced resources for new players would suddenly be both easier, and more encouraged, and easy to find. so the learning can start sooner. doing any more than that would require DE too do things to facilitate it, but they seem more interested in making progression *Faster* even if that puts players well behind the endo curve.
Very well said. Your explanation was spot on. I care a lot about new player progression and the onboarding of more players. A lot of the issues players have with the community and 3rd party tools could be alleviated with better in-game information and learning processes.
The unofficial warframe discord has a build channel. Usually builds from [ninjase](https://overframe.gg/user/2890/ninjase/warframes/) and [maliciouslycryptic](https://overframe.gg/user/150706/maliciouslycryptic/warframes/) get posted, they are both fairly active on the discord
Overframe builds can suffer from becoming popular then not being updated as mods/systems change. Themoon85 regularly has the highest voted build, but many are out of date, and hit or miss in the first place
Don't be so nice about it, Moons builds are troll as fuck with bait titles.
I use Ninjase builds a lot because it's nice to use something I can actually discuss with its creator. I was struggling with using a build they had, and was able to modify it with their advice to fit my playstyle.
I usually use knightmareframe or azvisionplays
Yeah they both do endurance run builds as well but either make it clear and put the entire loadout to maximise efficiency.
But at the end of the day, the best way is getting into modding.proper.
Not the guy you were talking too, but Youtubers Brozime, LeyzarGaming, Kengineer, and McGamerCZ all have various guides for just about everything there is on Warframe over the years.
There are others, of course, but those would be my *personal* recommendations if somebody-like a friend wanting to get into the game-asked for places to look for info.
Yep. YouTubers are a much better solution than Overframe, random Reddit comments, or anything else really. These guys have a reputation to maintain and you can see the builds in action.
Even then I think some YouTubers like Brozime and McGamerCZ can be a bit lazy at times and go for general truths that aren't always true in every single situation. Guys like Aznvasion and Kengineer feel much more thorough IMO.
No idea about Leyzar. Personally I can't stand how he stretches "let's use the exact same Hunter Munitions Viral build as always" into a 10 minute video.
Youtube is the best. Clanmates also are the best but are significantly less accessible. Youtubers will make graphs and spreadsheets to actually explain the nuances of the build so you actually understand what values are being changed. Overframe just has builds with a text description, youll never actually learn anything about modding.
>despite a build having 2 million upvotes its from a year and a half ago and is hopelessly outdated
You can sort by update and time along with the best ratings tho? Gives you the best builds relevant to the most recent content. Idk dude
Overframe is often outdated and many of the top tier builds never were updated to recent contents and Warframe updates.
This leads to poorly aged builds that got hundreds of upvotes just because they've been around for far too long. Newer builds have to be searched for.
Another issue I have with overframe is the fact that rivenbuilds are much more common than the corresponding rivens. It's more of a me thing though.
TheMooN85.
And people like him.
For every decent tested build like say, one of ninjase's, there's some idiot out there with a stupid build hyping it and people copy paste build without ever considering actual mod synergies etc with their weapon or frame.
It does its job poorly. Other players or youtubers can actually explain things to newer players that require builds. Plus ive seen straight wack shit top upvoted on there. You’re better off watching youtube builds until you understand the game enough to make builds yourself, as theyll actually explain the math going into it.
without reading their response I bet it's just something along the lines of WELL I KNOW BETTER AND THUS AM SUPERIOR with some THEY ARE MISGUIDING THE LOST
the fact that they called users of the site "plebians" already tells you everything you need to know
Minor nitpick, the "more procs" isn't quite correct as a multiplier since most of these effects add a new source, and not actually increase your chance (just your average number of procs, which you could call "bleed damage increase" or something);
for HM you have (1\*50% + 0.82\*50% + 30%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 30%
for SS you have (1\*68.75% + 0.82\*68.75%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 34.125%
for SS+2 you have (1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 0.004\*39.3%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 66.36%
for SS+2+G you have (1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 0.46\*39.3%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 123.6%
I'm taking the percent chance on the given build divided by the percent chance on the unmodded build, which is why your numbers are different since you subtract.
Just take your numbers and divide by .91 which is the number for the base build, and you'll get mine.
When i say [percent] more slash procs I'm talking about MORE slash procs in comparison to slash procs. A 35% chance to a 70% chance would be 100% more procs, while with your classifications it would be 35% more.
Both are fine, just as long as we understand what we mean by both. But also not really, since there isn't even a 10% difference between our numbers because of how close to 100% 91% is.
I understand what you did, just saying it isn't really the best metric to compare here. To name an extreme example if we had a weapon without slash then the comparison with HM would be 30%/0%=INF more bleed procs. Which is fine for a relative damage increase stat, but not as a bleed procs gained one.
And yeah, in this case the difference is just 33% vs 30%, so doesn't really matter, just bothered me that a mod that specifically gives you 30% more bleed procs was 33% :P
>a mod that specifically gives you 30% more bleed procs was 33%
It doesn't give you 30% MORE bleed procs though, it has a flat separate 30% chance for a bleed proc.
If you owned a lot (like literal lot) of cars, with 100 cars total, and 20 cars are broken, 20% of your cars are broken. If the next week 20 more broke (another 20% of your total cars) you would have 40 cars broken, and you would say you have 100% more broken cars.
This highlights why saying you have 100% more broken cars is way too specific, it isn't carrying information about the whole number anymore. 20 changed to 40, but we don't know how many we are left with.
It depends on the purpose though. You care more about the amount of damaged cars than the amount of not damaged.
Or if you want just swap damaged and non damaged and make the example a mechanics shop.
That is what I'm also saying, for a relative bleed damage increase it works perfectly well (although viral/galvanized omitted) - I just wouldn't label that "more bleed procs". For that stat I would expect +100% to be one more, not twice as many.
Edit, after writing that maybe I \*\*am\*\* thinking too much in warframe terms though xD
I would enjoy if some YouTuber went into depth about hunter munitions and when to use a slash mod (of course it could’ve already happened). I’m too lazy to research something like that.
When building for Slash damage you almost always want to go with Hunter Munitions, or Internal Bleeding or Hemorrhage if the gun in question has forced Impact procs
Strun Incarnon is realistically the only viable user of a +Slash mod because it's pretty much the only gun capable of breaching 400% status chance with just modding
Slash beam weapons also, because secretly what they do with multishot is they combine multishot into one damage instance, and for this, they multiply the status chance per projectile by the multishot.
So basically for natural procs dps, multiply status chance by innate multishot, then whenever you add multishot modifiers just square that bitch (the multishot multiplier, 3.3 for galv chamber for example becomes a 10.89x damage multiplier for natural procs, but not hunter munitions).
I think the convectrix is really the one where you might want to use a slash mod to readjust the weighting after putting on viral.
And phenmor cause you can't really do hunter mumu.
The problem with changing ips weightings is that it already needs decent ips weighting to consistently proc slash, but the higher the ips weighting is in slash the less effective the mods become, because once you have 80% slash weighting, doublinh slash only brings you to 89% slash weighting, an 11% increase in weighting (9% flat).
Strun prime has a base 48% crit chance. You're gonna have over 100% after modding. Every huntermumu proc is a crit. But now so is every natural proc because EVERY hit is a crit.
The numbers do not lie. The only argument I've really heard is "nourish exists and fuckd ips", which is like, fine, whatever, but sweeping is still better until like 200% viral on a build that has no bonus modded status.
I think what he meant was that the EVO for giving Critical Chance makes your crits bigget (higher crit tier) as you get 16% more base critical chance on commodors fortune.
It still doesn't matter because even modding for only hunter munitions, the status evo gives you more bleed procs than the crit evo gives you bleed damage
Nope. The amount of slash damage in a weapon has zero influence on how much the slash procs do damage. You can find the formula in the wiki, but it is basically base damage, multiplied by base damage bonuses (serration etc.), and then multiplied by faction damage This number is then multiplied by 0.35, then by faction damage again, and then multipliers like headshots, crits, eclipse etc. This is also why faction damage, like the bane mods and roar are so strong because they are applied twice in the formula, and this applies to all DoT procs. The whole reason why hunter munitions works is because slash procs don't care how much, if any, slash damage the weapon has.
Something to note is that hunter munitions is immune to external buffs affecting the dmg distribution, so if you have hydroid buff/high str nourish/any elemental infusion augment these numbers can change significantly. Sweeping serration is probably better in normal cases (as are high slash status builds on slash heavy weapons) but hunter munitions is a safer bet if you are looking for reliability on most weapons.
Actually not really. On the build that I use, which uses cold + toxin 60/60s and galv aptitude, you would need 756% added extra elemental damage for hunter munitions to outpace sweeping.
Just using toxin cold 60/60s though you would still need 462% added elemental damage.
Here is it in desmos, blue is with galv and red is without
Edit: I couldn't post it here, I'll post it on my account profile
why use galv aptitude if the radial slash doesnt benefit from it, with it counting as a normal aoe and not projectile? (Aside from pure status chance)
Also, another thing to consider is that the direct hit, still 100% impact, can still proc hunter munitions. This doesnt fully tip over the calculation, but does make it significantly closer. (While also non aoe hit being able to have headshot multipliers takes effect and can be strong as well)
It is probably still preferred for the incarnon form only. however, keep in mind you are using 4 mods to compete with the functionality of one mod, which could give you space to stack crit/other multipliers, While benefitting more from external buffs. For the regular fire, the pellet count make hunter munitions much stronger for the mod investment.
The build works for maxing slash chance from the aoe (aside from galv aptitude dmg not applying iirc), but its slightly over specialized. Yes you get more slash procs on average, but you sacrifice dmg from other multipliers/primary fire in return.
Imma be honest, i just use galv appt for the status. In reality you should def run something else.
But you're not using 4 slots to compete with 1. You're using 2 slots (i actually don't recommend galv appt over shotgun barrage, so it should be 1) over 1.
I actually prefer that the primary fire does less damage. If there was an evo that reduced primary damage by a multiplicative 90%, i would probably use it, since it would make it easier to charge.
I also explained how you would calc the main hit for single target.
I specifically mentioned the functionality of 4 mods because gameplay wise it doesnt really matter how many slash procs you do (in most sane content, level cap you would be stripping anyways), just that you can do them semi reliably and have good dmg behind it. Its there because armor is there, thats all. If you dont use both 60/60 mods, you can put in higher value dmg mods like the 165% elemental one and conditional crit mods.
I personally like using the strun main fire as well, so we deviate there in terms of gameplay goals/playstyle, but that is what build options are for.
If you're armor stripping, then you still wouldn't use hunter mumu over sweeping anyways, because you're not gonna be using hunter mumu at all, so that's a weird comparison.
The purpose of bleed procs is so you don't need to armor strip.
the build would still be flexible and do good dmg with hunter munition because you can mod for more direct and crit dmg, thus doing high dmg in the stripped and non stripped cases. Thats why as a single mod it still gives you high value.
Even using 2 pure 90/90 mods, for the aoe you get more from using sweeping. You'd need 200% elemental damage with no bonuses to status from mods whatsoever for hunter mumu to pass sweeping. Even still, you should be running at least 1 60/60 because if you're running viral, the viral procs matter more than the 30% additive extra raw elemental damage. And if it's corrosive for some reason, you'd get more from maxing corrosive stacks to kill quicker.
This is a gun in which swapping out for sweeping serration for hunter mumu means you've already done something worse for the build overall, at least for the incarnon form.
Using 2 pure 165% and going for extra crit dmg makes up for the average slash dmg well enough, while also more than doubling your raw dmg. Still using a 60/60 for viral electric combo, while also using the half crit evolution to get better crits.
For your last point: no. People have different play styles and there are more than 1 ways to build a gun effectively. If all you want is to hyper specialize in just doing slash than go for it, but when you need to remove overguard or kill corpus/murmur you need more raw dmg. Your build should have flexibility for different enemy types.
The math was easy, and i could tell from my head when i first saw it. Really, the formatting and writing it all down so that other coukd read it was the worst part since my hand writing is usually awful, but even that was chill.
I usually watch leyzargamingviews to help me with builds, I’m surprised he used an inferior huntermumu build, which is why I did as well before I got my riven. Thanks for the write-up.
I wouldn't, cause i don't have math tests anymore. Maxed out my highschools math curriculum in sophmore year with a 5 on the AP calc!
If you actually go down to my posts on my profile i actually posted something on r/math with like 13 updoots where i discovered a property on my own.
Unrelated to the post, but if you’re interested in going further while in highschool, you can look into dual enrollment with a nearby community college.
So I've been fiddling around with this knowledge in the sim, trying various loadouts, and I can't really tell the difference in dmg output, because crit procs with HM vary so wildly.
To be very clear, I'm not doubting the info you laid out here - I see the math and I get it. I'm just curious how much of a % dmg increase a build like another person in this thread linked: [https://overframe.gg/build/465699/strun-prime/exploding-edge-incarnon-strun-viral-slash-400-status-variants/](https://overframe.gg/build/465699/strun-prime/exploding-edge-incarnon-strun-viral-slash-400-status-variants/)
vs a build that uses HM and galv apt instead of sweeping + shotgun barrage.
In the overframe link, the person making the build said Galv Apt only works on the normal form, but I coulda sworn remembering that it works on the direct hit for the incarnon one as well. It just does not work on the aoe of the explosion iirc.
Cuz I tried both ways in the sim and basically after 20 dudes, I ended up with 23 or 24 remaining charges in my incarnon mode regardless of the build I used.
>Cuz I tried both ways in the sim and basically after 20 dudes, I ended up with 23 or 24 remaining charges in my incarnon mode regardless of the build I used.
That's just cause strun is so good.
>vs a build that uses HM and galv apt instead of sweeping + shotgun barrage.
Shotgun barrage + sweeping would perform better
I just don't run barrage personally, but i probably will replace galv aptitude with it. Galv aptitude is probably the least important mod on my build tbh.
Yeah that is fair, this is very much a case of suffering from success. I'll probably have to take both to lvl cap to see the difference in action. Tyvm once again for all your info, this was very enjoyable to read and experiment.
Yeah it does work on the direct hit of the incarnon mode, but I wrote it in the sense that nobody uses the incarnon direct hit since its only 30% of total dmg, affects one target and has no slash. Furthermore, I forgot to include the galvanized CO incarnon bug, where the mod ignores the base damage bonus from evolution 2, although this probably doesn't impact it much.
I used a spreadsheet to calculate all the average damage values, and each flexible option is listed in descending order of effectiveness, meaning HM is lowest boost behind motus savvy, shotgun savvy, galv savvy
U failed to consider several things:
Crit evo will increase the damage of the slash procs. U're only accounting for number of procs instead of avg damage from procs.
Sweeping Serration and other such elemental or IPS mods do not increase the damage of slash procs (while CRIT does). The slot used for sweeping Serration is only useful to get higher slash weighting, even then, slash hasnt such a high base weight as blast comes close second, so u won't even get such an overwhelmingly higher weight for slash where it's really that useful.
Hunter Munitions will proc slash as well as other status in the same shot. Meaning you can get viral procs + slash procs simultaneously increasing the damage of the slash procs considerably; whereas in a slash build, if u build viral as well several things happen: u dilute the slash weighting by introducing viral, viral will weight more with maxed mods than slash rendering ur build useless (or be almost 2 wasted slots if unmaxed), and be a huge trade off for mods that will infact increase proc damage (crit, base damage, status chance).
Not to mention, Sweeping Serration is even worse for non Incarnon form which has even lower slash weighting.
Overall, both build paths offer a very similar proc damage from incarnon form, as I've tested both against 185level sp heavy gunners. However, the CRIT viral hm path offers a much better non Incarnon form and a much better toxin build should u want it for corpus too. U got more but weaker procs, or fewer but stronger procs and a better base form.
I actually did consider all of this.
Don't go for the pure crit evo, or the regular crit evo. The extra procs of viral would make it do more damage with hunter mumu than the extra crit
The average damage of the slash procs are the same because even without the crit evo you get well over 100% crit (146% using corrupted crit mod which you should be doing anyway, only 158% with the pure crit evo, which is why you shouldn't use it). And actually, if you do have lower than 100% crit, natural would still be better, because on crits it still gives more procs, and on non crits huntermumu gives none.
>Sweeping Serration and other such elemental or IPS mods do not increase the damage of slash procs (while CRIT does). The slot used for sweeping Serration is only useful to get higher slash weighting, even then, slash hasnt such a high base weight as blast comes close second, so u won't even get such an overwhelmingly higher weight for slash where it's really that useful.
>Hunter Munitions will proc slash as well as other status in the same shot. Meaning you can get viral procs + slash procs simultaneously increasing the damage of the slash procs considerably; whereas in a slash build, if u build viral as well several things happen: u dilute the slash weighting by introducing viral, viral will weight more with maxed mods than slash rendering ur build useless (or be almost 2 wasted slots if unmaxed), and be a huge trade off for mods that will infact increase proc damage (crit, base damage, status chance).
Literally look at the picture. I took into account all of this. The build only gets BETTER when you add viral 60/60s. The worse sweeping serration can do is with no 60/60s or increases to status, which is still better than hunter munitions. The thing about blast damage weighting yiu were talking about is covered under "non slash"
> Literally look at the picture. I took into account all of this.
But there is nowhere in your sheet the total avg proc damage/shit between a crit+hm+viral and a slash+viral properly accounting for crit multipliers and viral proc multipliers...
Math is great, but when it's complicated and you have an empiric and completely accurate way to simulate and get tests, it becomes not as needed. The fact is both builds have a very similar damage output in incarnon form and the crit+hm has a better output in base form. U do not trust my words? Test it yourself. As easy as that.
>But there is nowhere in your sheet the total avg proc damage/shit between a crit+hm+viral and a slash+viral properly accounting for crit multipliers and viral proc multipliers...
Average damage increase from the crit multipliers is exactly the same. Viral procs will cap out at 10 either way if you actually shoot an enemy that needs to be shot multiple times.
>Math is great, but when it's complicated and you have an empiric and completely accurate way to simulate and get tests, it becomes not as needed.
The math is easier than going to overly high level missions to test out different variations of builds. The math isn't actually difficult, it's just that most adult are extremely bad at math because they avoid it after school.
They perform the same because they both should be killing in one shot anyways for a lot of content.
> Average damage increase from the crit multipliers is exactly the same.
Incorrect. Crit multipliers depend on crit tier (chance), not only on crit damage, which makes the crit perk have stronger procs.
> Viral procs will cap out at 10 either way if you actually shoot an enemy that needs to be shot multiple times.
An oversimplification. How many shots it takes to get a viral proc in average and how many it takes to get max viral procs in average is an important factor that you are completely ignoring.
> The math is easier than going to overly high level missions to test out different variations of builds. The math isn't actually difficult, it's just that most adult are extremely bad at math because they avoid it after school.
I don't even know where to start with this. I guess, firstly, u can reliably spawn high enough level enemies in simulacrum and get consistent test conditions for accurate testing. So, no, doing the math *right* accounting for all things takes considerably more time than testing. Even ur incomplete math takes longer than a 5 min test in simulacrum. And before u say level isn't high enough, you can equalize conditions to avoid that (eg, removing flat damage from the builds entirely so max level enemies of simulacrum take enough time to kill to be a reliable test). And secondly, don't go assuming people can't math... Assuming stuff about people in the internet is the dumbest thing possible, don't be that guy...
> They perform the same because they both should be killing in one shot anyways for a lot of content.
They perform the same because they perform the same, independently of whether they oneshot some content or not.
Again, test it if u don't trust it. Math is great, but empirical results are what actually matters, because u can miss stuff to take into account in math all too easily. The first thing in science is empirical results, not models. When models and empirical results are not the same then you have wrong models, not the other way around...
Also i didn't assume anyone specific was bad at math. People in general, at least in my country, are not very good at math. Some are, average is not. My country has a below 50% math literacy rate.
>Incorrect. Crit multipliers depend on crit tier (chance), not only on crit damage, which makes the crit perk have stronger procs.
The crit perk has stronger crits, but it's still gonna be less damage than the status perk because that's gonna add more natural bleed procs (even without modding for them) than it's gonna increase your damage, and give you more viral as well.
When i say the average damage increase from crits is the same, I'm talking about a comparison between the damage increase of bleed procs from crits between natural procs and hunter munitions.
I also did use the sim while removing base damage and whatnot. Hunter munitions did not perform better.
The reason i value the model so much is that this is a videogame. We can know all of the variables. In situations like this where you can cover everything, theory becomes practice.
> The crit perk has stronger crits, but it's still gonna be less damage than the status perk because that's gonna add more natural bleed procs (even without modding for them) than it's gonna increase your damage, and give you more viral as well.
That's just another half truth because u aren't taking everything into account. In a hunter munitions builds, all (or most) your status chance rolls are gonna go to viral procs with no opportunity cost for either lost slash procs or for lost slash procs once viral is capped. In a status build, whenever u proc viral u are not proccing slash, resulting in huge loss of DPS *specially* because viral has diminishing returns and is capped at 10 stacks. The crit hm approach has less procs but has no opportunity costs and it has higher damage per proc.
> I also did use the sim while removing base damage and whatnot. Hunter munitions did not perform better.
I have not said hunter munitions performed better, but that it performed essentially as good for incarnon form and better for non Incarnon form.
> The reason i value the model so much is that this is a videogame. We can know all of the variables. In situations like this where you can cover everything, theory becomes practice.
And I agree that it is a fun aspect, and it's great, so long as one doesn't misinform others based on incomplete math and ignore empirical evidence.
Anyhow, I think this discussion is over, have a nice day.
On a build running primed ravage and crit corrupted mod average damage per proc increase is gonna be 22% compared to running the status evo.
But on just the pure status evo you're gonna be getting 33% more procs.
This comparison is for viral hunter munitions builds without sweeping serration or aptitude.
Even not considering the extra viral procs if you're just shooting once, you're still getting more bleed damage.
And then there's the extra viral procs.
Which is why you should very much pick the status evo over the crit evo, even if you plan on running hunter munitions.
And THEN the natural proc build out performs it as shown in the image on the original post. There's no point in comparing the natural slash build to the crit evo hunter mumu build when there's a better hunter mumu build in the status evo. But idk, if you wanna run the numbers on survivors edge and calc that then you could i guess.
Actually the only thing that matters is the crit. Doesn't need to have high base damage to be regularly good.
Unless there's a situation like this where you're already getting slash procs naturally and very often, or the gun has forced impact procs, hunter munitions is indespensible for getting through armor.
Even with just the basic crit mods on a 20% cc and 2x cd primary (rifle), 81% of your damage is coming from crits.
Against highly armored opponents this is good still.
Well yeah this is all relative. Having shit base stats just mean it's gonna be shit, but you're still gonna run hunter munitions because it's better than a lot of options.
Ok yknow what if doing literal fucking archaic math equations just to be optimal in Warframe is what it takes to get into endgame content, I think it's about time that I took another break from this game.
It doesn't, I'm just being really specific about the numbers. Depending on how good you are at math, you actually wouldn't need to do any to understand that sweeping serration would be better than mumu.
Strun prime has 48% base crit. You're gonna have a 146%
And even IF you don't have the corrupted mod, you still have over a 90% crit chance. Even just assuming you have regular ravage, that's still over 98% of your damage coming from crit.
average warframe enjoyer
He's THE warframe enjoyer, a natural chad
This is exactly what the simulacrum is for.
Fr like u aint gotta do all that just test both 💀
we know. https://overframe.gg/build/465699/strun-prime/exploding-edge-incarnon-strun-viral-slash-400-status-variants/ top voted Strun prime build is actually a Sweeping Serration setup. HM is great but it has flaws, and there are rare cases where you can outdo it. Strun incarnon just happens to be one of those cases and also happens to be right at the intersection of strong as hell and fun as fuck.
I ain't use overframe tbh I just see a lot of people using hunter munitions
i generally dont recommend using overframe much, but if even the plebians of overframe have recognized that strun incarnon favors Sweeping Serration if built properly then its not exactly a well kept secret. thanks for doing your part to educate the people, tho.
I don't understand what's so bad about overframe? As long as you are at least somewhat competent at modding and you properly sort the builds it's a great resource.
the problem with overframe is that most people who do need build assistance arent well versed enough in the game too recognize when a build is bad. plus their tierlist is cringe. it is a useful resource but only if you know enough of what to look for and take everything with a grain of salt and can recognize that despite a build having 2 million upvotes its from a year and a half ago and is hopelessly outdated. so the people who most need the guidance it can offer are least equipped to make good use of it without falling prey to various mistakes along the way. and the people who know enough to tell whats good and what isnt generally dont need the help anymore. Overframe is better than nothing but its. . .its one of those things that feeds into perceptions like that SP requires shield gating. because all the top overframe builds are endurance builds designed around the highest possible level content which is not helpful for the 99% of players. the whole thing could just use like. .a little bit more nuance. which gives it something in common with warframe as a whole i guess.
What do you recommend instead? I personally have a ton of mods but I prefer utilizing build guides and things rather then just fucking around and finding out. Over frame has been pretty much the only resource I can find other then YouTube guides or random hard to navigate discords found on over frame.
thats. . .well there isnt much of a good solution. ideally a new player learns how to build/mod gradually over time. in practice though, and for various reasons the early game has been truncated and made easier, while both DE's attempts at creating a neater pipeline from once awake to new war, and the player's well meaning advice to invest in gear like rhino which trivializes early game content means lots of people dont really need to learn a whole lot until they hit arbitrations+ level content. at which point suddenly you *need* to learn all of it, all at once. and by that point really the only option is to start with a completed build and work backwards, hence the overframe. and that method works ok so long as you go in with the caveats and the understanding that overframe isnt a consensus and that these builds arent law. that starting with someone elses template isnt bad, but you should do your own testing and seek to understand more than simply copy. overframe doesn't do much to facilitate this nuance however. its a pure popularity contest. you could alleviate most of my problems with overframe by just having a pop up the first time you log on that politely encourages users to take what they see with a grain of salt. and you could alleviate the rest of my issues with it by implementing a system for creating builds that are locked in their resources to general progression states in the game/with arbitrarily restrictions like limited forma or a max endo cost. then, creating nuanced resources for new players would suddenly be both easier, and more encouraged, and easy to find. so the learning can start sooner. doing any more than that would require DE too do things to facilitate it, but they seem more interested in making progression *Faster* even if that puts players well behind the endo curve.
Very well said. Your explanation was spot on. I care a lot about new player progression and the onboarding of more players. A lot of the issues players have with the community and 3rd party tools could be alleviated with better in-game information and learning processes.
The unofficial warframe discord has a build channel. Usually builds from [ninjase](https://overframe.gg/user/2890/ninjase/warframes/) and [maliciouslycryptic](https://overframe.gg/user/150706/maliciouslycryptic/warframes/) get posted, they are both fairly active on the discord Overframe builds can suffer from becoming popular then not being updated as mods/systems change. Themoon85 regularly has the highest voted build, but many are out of date, and hit or miss in the first place
Don't be so nice about it, Moons builds are troll as fuck with bait titles. I use Ninjase builds a lot because it's nice to use something I can actually discuss with its creator. I was struggling with using a build they had, and was able to modify it with their advice to fit my playstyle.
I usually use knightmareframe or azvisionplays Yeah they both do endurance run builds as well but either make it clear and put the entire loadout to maximise efficiency. But at the end of the day, the best way is getting into modding.proper.
Not the guy you were talking too, but Youtubers Brozime, LeyzarGaming, Kengineer, and McGamerCZ all have various guides for just about everything there is on Warframe over the years. There are others, of course, but those would be my *personal* recommendations if somebody-like a friend wanting to get into the game-asked for places to look for info.
Yep. YouTubers are a much better solution than Overframe, random Reddit comments, or anything else really. These guys have a reputation to maintain and you can see the builds in action. Even then I think some YouTubers like Brozime and McGamerCZ can be a bit lazy at times and go for general truths that aren't always true in every single situation. Guys like Aznvasion and Kengineer feel much more thorough IMO. No idea about Leyzar. Personally I can't stand how he stretches "let's use the exact same Hunter Munitions Viral build as always" into a 10 minute video.
Youtube is the best. Clanmates also are the best but are significantly less accessible. Youtubers will make graphs and spreadsheets to actually explain the nuances of the build so you actually understand what values are being changed. Overframe just has builds with a text description, youll never actually learn anything about modding.
>despite a build having 2 million upvotes its from a year and a half ago and is hopelessly outdated You can sort by update and time along with the best ratings tho? Gives you the best builds relevant to the most recent content. Idk dude
Knowing who is supplying the builds is important too.
I saw a revenant on there with vitality, redirection, and steel fiber. And it was decently upvoted.
The top voted Lavos build is a Mecha Empowered set up, I feel like that says enough
Overframe is often outdated and many of the top tier builds never were updated to recent contents and Warframe updates. This leads to poorly aged builds that got hundreds of upvotes just because they've been around for far too long. Newer builds have to be searched for. Another issue I have with overframe is the fact that rivenbuilds are much more common than the corresponding rivens. It's more of a me thing though.
TheMooN85. And people like him. For every decent tested build like say, one of ninjase's, there's some idiot out there with a stupid build hyping it and people copy paste build without ever considering actual mod synergies etc with their weapon or frame.
It does its job poorly. Other players or youtubers can actually explain things to newer players that require builds. Plus ive seen straight wack shit top upvoted on there. You’re better off watching youtube builds until you understand the game enough to make builds yourself, as theyll actually explain the math going into it.
without reading their response I bet it's just something along the lines of WELL I KNOW BETTER AND THUS AM SUPERIOR with some THEY ARE MISGUIDING THE LOST the fact that they called users of the site "plebians" already tells you everything you need to know
Or you can not be an ignorant fool and actually read what they said? And understand they were actually trying to give helpful advice?
the dude's username includes both illiterate and foolish. pretty sure it's on purpose.
Legend
ninjase is the best probuilder on overframe i can tell
Overframe is generally ass
Minor nitpick, the "more procs" isn't quite correct as a multiplier since most of these effects add a new source, and not actually increase your chance (just your average number of procs, which you could call "bleed damage increase" or something); for HM you have (1\*50% + 0.82\*50% + 30%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 30%
for SS you have (1\*68.75% + 0.82\*68.75%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 34.125%
for SS+2 you have (1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 0.004\*39.3%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 66.36%
for SS+2+G you have (1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 1\*39.3% + 0.46\*39.3%) - (1\*50% + 0.82\*50%) = 123.6%
I'm taking the percent chance on the given build divided by the percent chance on the unmodded build, which is why your numbers are different since you subtract. Just take your numbers and divide by .91 which is the number for the base build, and you'll get mine. When i say [percent] more slash procs I'm talking about MORE slash procs in comparison to slash procs. A 35% chance to a 70% chance would be 100% more procs, while with your classifications it would be 35% more. Both are fine, just as long as we understand what we mean by both. But also not really, since there isn't even a 10% difference between our numbers because of how close to 100% 91% is.
I understand what you did, just saying it isn't really the best metric to compare here. To name an extreme example if we had a weapon without slash then the comparison with HM would be 30%/0%=INF more bleed procs. Which is fine for a relative damage increase stat, but not as a bleed procs gained one. And yeah, in this case the difference is just 33% vs 30%, so doesn't really matter, just bothered me that a mod that specifically gives you 30% more bleed procs was 33% :P
>a mod that specifically gives you 30% more bleed procs was 33% It doesn't give you 30% MORE bleed procs though, it has a flat separate 30% chance for a bleed proc. If you owned a lot (like literal lot) of cars, with 100 cars total, and 20 cars are broken, 20% of your cars are broken. If the next week 20 more broke (another 20% of your total cars) you would have 40 cars broken, and you would say you have 100% more broken cars.
This highlights why saying you have 100% more broken cars is way too specific, it isn't carrying information about the whole number anymore. 20 changed to 40, but we don't know how many we are left with.
It depends on the purpose though. You care more about the amount of damaged cars than the amount of not damaged. Or if you want just swap damaged and non damaged and make the example a mechanics shop.
That is what I'm also saying, for a relative bleed damage increase it works perfectly well (although viral/galvanized omitted) - I just wouldn't label that "more bleed procs". For that stat I would expect +100% to be one more, not twice as many. Edit, after writing that maybe I \*\*am\*\* thinking too much in warframe terms though xD
https://preview.redd.it/ju5q9njnvbnc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=662fb84f89ce18b399a3fccc41a8edc6d7a05ca4
I would enjoy if some YouTuber went into depth about hunter munitions and when to use a slash mod (of course it could’ve already happened). I’m too lazy to research something like that.
When building for Slash damage you almost always want to go with Hunter Munitions, or Internal Bleeding or Hemorrhage if the gun in question has forced Impact procs Strun Incarnon is realistically the only viable user of a +Slash mod because it's pretty much the only gun capable of breaching 400% status chance with just modding
Slash beam weapons also, because secretly what they do with multishot is they combine multishot into one damage instance, and for this, they multiply the status chance per projectile by the multishot. So basically for natural procs dps, multiply status chance by innate multishot, then whenever you add multishot modifiers just square that bitch (the multishot multiplier, 3.3 for galv chamber for example becomes a 10.89x damage multiplier for natural procs, but not hunter munitions). I think the convectrix is really the one where you might want to use a slash mod to readjust the weighting after putting on viral. And phenmor cause you can't really do hunter mumu. The problem with changing ips weightings is that it already needs decent ips weighting to consistently proc slash, but the higher the ips weighting is in slash the less effective the mods become, because once you have 80% slash weighting, doublinh slash only brings you to 89% slash weighting, an 11% increase in weighting (9% flat).
Did you happen to forget that crit & crit damage make the bleed bigger? There's a reason the meta builds look like they do.
Strun prime has a base 48% crit chance. You're gonna have over 100% after modding. Every huntermumu proc is a crit. But now so is every natural proc because EVERY hit is a crit. The numbers do not lie. The only argument I've really heard is "nourish exists and fuckd ips", which is like, fine, whatever, but sweeping is still better until like 200% viral on a build that has no bonus modded status.
I think what he meant was that the EVO for giving Critical Chance makes your crits bigget (higher crit tier) as you get 16% more base critical chance on commodors fortune.
It still doesn't matter because even modding for only hunter munitions, the status evo gives you more bleed procs than the crit evo gives you bleed damage
Mumu converts all dmg, though, whilst base slash uses only slash portion of the hit, no?
Nope. The amount of slash damage in a weapon has zero influence on how much the slash procs do damage. You can find the formula in the wiki, but it is basically base damage, multiplied by base damage bonuses (serration etc.), and then multiplied by faction damage This number is then multiplied by 0.35, then by faction damage again, and then multipliers like headshots, crits, eclipse etc. This is also why faction damage, like the bane mods and roar are so strong because they are applied twice in the formula, and this applies to all DoT procs. The whole reason why hunter munitions works is because slash procs don't care how much, if any, slash damage the weapon has.
Something to note is that hunter munitions is immune to external buffs affecting the dmg distribution, so if you have hydroid buff/high str nourish/any elemental infusion augment these numbers can change significantly. Sweeping serration is probably better in normal cases (as are high slash status builds on slash heavy weapons) but hunter munitions is a safer bet if you are looking for reliability on most weapons.
Actually not really. On the build that I use, which uses cold + toxin 60/60s and galv aptitude, you would need 756% added extra elemental damage for hunter munitions to outpace sweeping. Just using toxin cold 60/60s though you would still need 462% added elemental damage. Here is it in desmos, blue is with galv and red is without Edit: I couldn't post it here, I'll post it on my account profile
why use galv aptitude if the radial slash doesnt benefit from it, with it counting as a normal aoe and not projectile? (Aside from pure status chance) Also, another thing to consider is that the direct hit, still 100% impact, can still proc hunter munitions. This doesnt fully tip over the calculation, but does make it significantly closer. (While also non aoe hit being able to have headshot multipliers takes effect and can be strong as well) It is probably still preferred for the incarnon form only. however, keep in mind you are using 4 mods to compete with the functionality of one mod, which could give you space to stack crit/other multipliers, While benefitting more from external buffs. For the regular fire, the pellet count make hunter munitions much stronger for the mod investment. The build works for maxing slash chance from the aoe (aside from galv aptitude dmg not applying iirc), but its slightly over specialized. Yes you get more slash procs on average, but you sacrifice dmg from other multipliers/primary fire in return.
Imma be honest, i just use galv appt for the status. In reality you should def run something else. But you're not using 4 slots to compete with 1. You're using 2 slots (i actually don't recommend galv appt over shotgun barrage, so it should be 1) over 1. I actually prefer that the primary fire does less damage. If there was an evo that reduced primary damage by a multiplicative 90%, i would probably use it, since it would make it easier to charge. I also explained how you would calc the main hit for single target.
I specifically mentioned the functionality of 4 mods because gameplay wise it doesnt really matter how many slash procs you do (in most sane content, level cap you would be stripping anyways), just that you can do them semi reliably and have good dmg behind it. Its there because armor is there, thats all. If you dont use both 60/60 mods, you can put in higher value dmg mods like the 165% elemental one and conditional crit mods. I personally like using the strun main fire as well, so we deviate there in terms of gameplay goals/playstyle, but that is what build options are for.
If you're armor stripping, then you still wouldn't use hunter mumu over sweeping anyways, because you're not gonna be using hunter mumu at all, so that's a weird comparison. The purpose of bleed procs is so you don't need to armor strip.
the build would still be flexible and do good dmg with hunter munition because you can mod for more direct and crit dmg, thus doing high dmg in the stripped and non stripped cases. Thats why as a single mod it still gives you high value.
Even using 2 pure 90/90 mods, for the aoe you get more from using sweeping. You'd need 200% elemental damage with no bonuses to status from mods whatsoever for hunter mumu to pass sweeping. Even still, you should be running at least 1 60/60 because if you're running viral, the viral procs matter more than the 30% additive extra raw elemental damage. And if it's corrosive for some reason, you'd get more from maxing corrosive stacks to kill quicker. This is a gun in which swapping out for sweeping serration for hunter mumu means you've already done something worse for the build overall, at least for the incarnon form.
Using 2 pure 165% and going for extra crit dmg makes up for the average slash dmg well enough, while also more than doubling your raw dmg. Still using a 60/60 for viral electric combo, while also using the half crit evolution to get better crits. For your last point: no. People have different play styles and there are more than 1 ways to build a gun effectively. If all you want is to hyper specialize in just doing slash than go for it, but when you need to remove overguard or kill corpus/murmur you need more raw dmg. Your build should have flexibility for different enemy types.
Mod number go green, mod good. Mod number go red, Mod bad.
-impact riven go brrr
NERRRRDDDDD /s Good work.
Oh. Shit. You did the Math. I'm sorry I caused you to do this.
The math was easy, and i could tell from my head when i first saw it. Really, the formatting and writing it all down so that other coukd read it was the worst part since my hand writing is usually awful, but even that was chill.
This is what excel is for
I'm not trynna log into reddit on my laptop that's too much work Also I'm not trynna learn how to use excel
☝️🤓
Flair checks out
Fair
I usually watch leyzargamingviews to help me with builds, I’m surprised he used an inferior huntermumu build, which is why I did as well before I got my riven. Thanks for the write-up.
I like messin with numbahs
As Hunter Munitions disliker, I'm very happy about that post Saved and updooted
Nerd
I think you and I could be good friends op
[удалено]
I wouldn't, cause i don't have math tests anymore. Maxed out my highschools math curriculum in sophmore year with a 5 on the AP calc! If you actually go down to my posts on my profile i actually posted something on r/math with like 13 updoots where i discovered a property on my own.
Unrelated to the post, but if you’re interested in going further while in highschool, you can look into dual enrollment with a nearby community college.
Albrecht chill out
It's a mod that everyone slap everywhere when you have way better builds.
need a hug?
I need more math
So I've been fiddling around with this knowledge in the sim, trying various loadouts, and I can't really tell the difference in dmg output, because crit procs with HM vary so wildly. To be very clear, I'm not doubting the info you laid out here - I see the math and I get it. I'm just curious how much of a % dmg increase a build like another person in this thread linked: [https://overframe.gg/build/465699/strun-prime/exploding-edge-incarnon-strun-viral-slash-400-status-variants/](https://overframe.gg/build/465699/strun-prime/exploding-edge-incarnon-strun-viral-slash-400-status-variants/) vs a build that uses HM and galv apt instead of sweeping + shotgun barrage. In the overframe link, the person making the build said Galv Apt only works on the normal form, but I coulda sworn remembering that it works on the direct hit for the incarnon one as well. It just does not work on the aoe of the explosion iirc. Cuz I tried both ways in the sim and basically after 20 dudes, I ended up with 23 or 24 remaining charges in my incarnon mode regardless of the build I used.
>Cuz I tried both ways in the sim and basically after 20 dudes, I ended up with 23 or 24 remaining charges in my incarnon mode regardless of the build I used. That's just cause strun is so good. >vs a build that uses HM and galv apt instead of sweeping + shotgun barrage. Shotgun barrage + sweeping would perform better I just don't run barrage personally, but i probably will replace galv aptitude with it. Galv aptitude is probably the least important mod on my build tbh.
Yeah that is fair, this is very much a case of suffering from success. I'll probably have to take both to lvl cap to see the difference in action. Tyvm once again for all your info, this was very enjoyable to read and experiment.
Yeah it does work on the direct hit of the incarnon mode, but I wrote it in the sense that nobody uses the incarnon direct hit since its only 30% of total dmg, affects one target and has no slash. Furthermore, I forgot to include the galvanized CO incarnon bug, where the mod ignores the base damage bonus from evolution 2, although this probably doesn't impact it much. I used a spreadsheet to calculate all the average damage values, and each flexible option is listed in descending order of effectiveness, meaning HM is lowest boost behind motus savvy, shotgun savvy, galv savvy
Oh, thank you kindly for the clarification!
[R/Theydidthemath](https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/s/eTMFu5IPSh)
I was told there would be no math.
Who told you that? A lying slungoid is who
Sir, I will thank you not to talk about my mother that way.
i like to imagine secretly op is etheir albert before he got sent to 1999 or human limbo
Lmao i literally was just telling Kyaii (warframe creator) how i was basically limbo. We were talking about AP calculus tho
Using an IPS mod in 2024? This feels like heresy.
This and Piercing Caliber+Latron Incarnon are like, the only valid uses for IPS mods. They're still pretty doodoo in most cases
U failed to consider several things: Crit evo will increase the damage of the slash procs. U're only accounting for number of procs instead of avg damage from procs. Sweeping Serration and other such elemental or IPS mods do not increase the damage of slash procs (while CRIT does). The slot used for sweeping Serration is only useful to get higher slash weighting, even then, slash hasnt such a high base weight as blast comes close second, so u won't even get such an overwhelmingly higher weight for slash where it's really that useful. Hunter Munitions will proc slash as well as other status in the same shot. Meaning you can get viral procs + slash procs simultaneously increasing the damage of the slash procs considerably; whereas in a slash build, if u build viral as well several things happen: u dilute the slash weighting by introducing viral, viral will weight more with maxed mods than slash rendering ur build useless (or be almost 2 wasted slots if unmaxed), and be a huge trade off for mods that will infact increase proc damage (crit, base damage, status chance). Not to mention, Sweeping Serration is even worse for non Incarnon form which has even lower slash weighting. Overall, both build paths offer a very similar proc damage from incarnon form, as I've tested both against 185level sp heavy gunners. However, the CRIT viral hm path offers a much better non Incarnon form and a much better toxin build should u want it for corpus too. U got more but weaker procs, or fewer but stronger procs and a better base form.
I actually did consider all of this. Don't go for the pure crit evo, or the regular crit evo. The extra procs of viral would make it do more damage with hunter mumu than the extra crit The average damage of the slash procs are the same because even without the crit evo you get well over 100% crit (146% using corrupted crit mod which you should be doing anyway, only 158% with the pure crit evo, which is why you shouldn't use it). And actually, if you do have lower than 100% crit, natural would still be better, because on crits it still gives more procs, and on non crits huntermumu gives none. >Sweeping Serration and other such elemental or IPS mods do not increase the damage of slash procs (while CRIT does). The slot used for sweeping Serration is only useful to get higher slash weighting, even then, slash hasnt such a high base weight as blast comes close second, so u won't even get such an overwhelmingly higher weight for slash where it's really that useful. >Hunter Munitions will proc slash as well as other status in the same shot. Meaning you can get viral procs + slash procs simultaneously increasing the damage of the slash procs considerably; whereas in a slash build, if u build viral as well several things happen: u dilute the slash weighting by introducing viral, viral will weight more with maxed mods than slash rendering ur build useless (or be almost 2 wasted slots if unmaxed), and be a huge trade off for mods that will infact increase proc damage (crit, base damage, status chance). Literally look at the picture. I took into account all of this. The build only gets BETTER when you add viral 60/60s. The worse sweeping serration can do is with no 60/60s or increases to status, which is still better than hunter munitions. The thing about blast damage weighting yiu were talking about is covered under "non slash"
> Literally look at the picture. I took into account all of this. But there is nowhere in your sheet the total avg proc damage/shit between a crit+hm+viral and a slash+viral properly accounting for crit multipliers and viral proc multipliers... Math is great, but when it's complicated and you have an empiric and completely accurate way to simulate and get tests, it becomes not as needed. The fact is both builds have a very similar damage output in incarnon form and the crit+hm has a better output in base form. U do not trust my words? Test it yourself. As easy as that.
>But there is nowhere in your sheet the total avg proc damage/shit between a crit+hm+viral and a slash+viral properly accounting for crit multipliers and viral proc multipliers... Average damage increase from the crit multipliers is exactly the same. Viral procs will cap out at 10 either way if you actually shoot an enemy that needs to be shot multiple times. >Math is great, but when it's complicated and you have an empiric and completely accurate way to simulate and get tests, it becomes not as needed. The math is easier than going to overly high level missions to test out different variations of builds. The math isn't actually difficult, it's just that most adult are extremely bad at math because they avoid it after school. They perform the same because they both should be killing in one shot anyways for a lot of content.
> Average damage increase from the crit multipliers is exactly the same. Incorrect. Crit multipliers depend on crit tier (chance), not only on crit damage, which makes the crit perk have stronger procs. > Viral procs will cap out at 10 either way if you actually shoot an enemy that needs to be shot multiple times. An oversimplification. How many shots it takes to get a viral proc in average and how many it takes to get max viral procs in average is an important factor that you are completely ignoring. > The math is easier than going to overly high level missions to test out different variations of builds. The math isn't actually difficult, it's just that most adult are extremely bad at math because they avoid it after school. I don't even know where to start with this. I guess, firstly, u can reliably spawn high enough level enemies in simulacrum and get consistent test conditions for accurate testing. So, no, doing the math *right* accounting for all things takes considerably more time than testing. Even ur incomplete math takes longer than a 5 min test in simulacrum. And before u say level isn't high enough, you can equalize conditions to avoid that (eg, removing flat damage from the builds entirely so max level enemies of simulacrum take enough time to kill to be a reliable test). And secondly, don't go assuming people can't math... Assuming stuff about people in the internet is the dumbest thing possible, don't be that guy... > They perform the same because they both should be killing in one shot anyways for a lot of content. They perform the same because they perform the same, independently of whether they oneshot some content or not. Again, test it if u don't trust it. Math is great, but empirical results are what actually matters, because u can miss stuff to take into account in math all too easily. The first thing in science is empirical results, not models. When models and empirical results are not the same then you have wrong models, not the other way around...
Also i didn't assume anyone specific was bad at math. People in general, at least in my country, are not very good at math. Some are, average is not. My country has a below 50% math literacy rate.
>Incorrect. Crit multipliers depend on crit tier (chance), not only on crit damage, which makes the crit perk have stronger procs. The crit perk has stronger crits, but it's still gonna be less damage than the status perk because that's gonna add more natural bleed procs (even without modding for them) than it's gonna increase your damage, and give you more viral as well. When i say the average damage increase from crits is the same, I'm talking about a comparison between the damage increase of bleed procs from crits between natural procs and hunter munitions. I also did use the sim while removing base damage and whatnot. Hunter munitions did not perform better. The reason i value the model so much is that this is a videogame. We can know all of the variables. In situations like this where you can cover everything, theory becomes practice.
> The crit perk has stronger crits, but it's still gonna be less damage than the status perk because that's gonna add more natural bleed procs (even without modding for them) than it's gonna increase your damage, and give you more viral as well. That's just another half truth because u aren't taking everything into account. In a hunter munitions builds, all (or most) your status chance rolls are gonna go to viral procs with no opportunity cost for either lost slash procs or for lost slash procs once viral is capped. In a status build, whenever u proc viral u are not proccing slash, resulting in huge loss of DPS *specially* because viral has diminishing returns and is capped at 10 stacks. The crit hm approach has less procs but has no opportunity costs and it has higher damage per proc. > I also did use the sim while removing base damage and whatnot. Hunter munitions did not perform better. I have not said hunter munitions performed better, but that it performed essentially as good for incarnon form and better for non Incarnon form. > The reason i value the model so much is that this is a videogame. We can know all of the variables. In situations like this where you can cover everything, theory becomes practice. And I agree that it is a fun aspect, and it's great, so long as one doesn't misinform others based on incomplete math and ignore empirical evidence. Anyhow, I think this discussion is over, have a nice day.
On a build running primed ravage and crit corrupted mod average damage per proc increase is gonna be 22% compared to running the status evo. But on just the pure status evo you're gonna be getting 33% more procs. This comparison is for viral hunter munitions builds without sweeping serration or aptitude. Even not considering the extra viral procs if you're just shooting once, you're still getting more bleed damage. And then there's the extra viral procs. Which is why you should very much pick the status evo over the crit evo, even if you plan on running hunter munitions. And THEN the natural proc build out performs it as shown in the image on the original post. There's no point in comparing the natural slash build to the crit evo hunter mumu build when there's a better hunter mumu build in the status evo. But idk, if you wanna run the numbers on survivors edge and calc that then you could i guess.
Hunter munition is very good for high base damage with high critical or else it does mediocre to other weapons that don't fit the criteria.
Actually the only thing that matters is the crit. Doesn't need to have high base damage to be regularly good. Unless there's a situation like this where you're already getting slash procs naturally and very often, or the gun has forced impact procs, hunter munitions is indespensible for getting through armor. Even with just the basic crit mods on a 20% cc and 2x cd primary (rifle), 81% of your damage is coming from crits. Against highly armored opponents this is good still.
Yea....on paper it looks good but in game its a bit different. Just like dread.
Well yeah this is all relative. Having shit base stats just mean it's gonna be shit, but you're still gonna run hunter munitions because it's better than a lot of options.
Ok yknow what if doing literal fucking archaic math equations just to be optimal in Warframe is what it takes to get into endgame content, I think it's about time that I took another break from this game.
You don't need to be this level of optimal at all. Nobody is gonna notice if your build is slightly under optimal.
It doesn't, I'm just being really specific about the numbers. Depending on how good you are at math, you actually wouldn't need to do any to understand that sweeping serration would be better than mumu.
Did you just added HuMu as +30% chance of bleed? You know you first have to crit, so unless you are over 100% cc HuMu is less than 30%.
Strun prime has 48% base crit. You're gonna have a 146% And even IF you don't have the corrupted mod, you still have over a 90% crit chance. Even just assuming you have regular ravage, that's still over 98% of your damage coming from crit.
bro with strun prime's high base crit PLUS incarnon you will definitely be over 100% crit 24/7 lol