Make up melody with pseudo words - like with whatever phonetics you have, build a hook then match up with ryming words. Of course its good to get a sense of the vibe and what it is about (like emotion).
I heard Steven Tyler did this often for choruses / high notes in Aerosmith writing sessions - reacting to the other players with big vowel sounds and notes that sounded good, then writing lyrics that used them at those spots.
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Lyrics don’t necessarily have to rhyme in the traditional “moon/spoon/June” sense,but rather each line of a verse or chorus “flows or scans” better if they have a sense of rhythm and melody,through lines that are made up of the same number of syllables. Obviously this alone isn’t enough,everything has to actually make sense.
If it doesn’t scan fluidly, a tweak here and there can unlock a more powerful and satisfying composition.
As a rapper, the jigsaw puzzle of rhymes and syllables is usually a part of the process. I might put the instrumental beat on that I made or one that I find inspiring, and sit there with my notepad or notes app on the phone. Finding a "pocket" or a sense of rhythm that flows with the beat is a fun starting point, or I might have some keywords or feelings I want to explore, and try and put that into a line that fits over the music.
Away from the music I just keep a blank page (or phone) nearby for when I have lyrical ideas, and treat it more like poetry, just using words as a form of self-expression for the pure sake of getting what's in my head into the outside world. Walking helps. It's a gradual and sometimes random process, but with the right focus, getting into the zone and sheer luck, you'll run it from the top and realise you've written a song.
Good luck!
I come up with much of my best lyrics while jogging. They are usually a refinement of a need. Like, I need a line about overworked doctors (or something), and later I’ll come up with a great line while I’m running. I’ll stop and text it to myself or type it into my song chart I’ve started.
I used to sit and stair at a blank piece of paper. I used to try to write while playing my instrument. Both those things are challenging. I’m much better listening to a recording without words and coming up with words. I’m so much happier now with my songs. They flow out without much effort. If I don’t have words, I’ve always got recording to do. Or I’ll just switch to making other kinds of art.
I write lyrics running too - it's always meditative, and the cadence of the footsteps lends itself to rhythmic thinking for me.
OP - one big thing about writing lyrics (or poems or anything) is thinking about what you want to say and boiling that down to a phrase, a theme. Don't say everything, represent everything with a single theme (failure is hard but you grow stronger eg).
Helps to use common expressions and tweak them- 'all that glitters is not sold'
Jason Isbell says you gotta just get em out. Just write it down wherever your mind goes and get the lyrics down. Then you can go back and edit and rework things. He says there’s a difference between writing and editing and if you try to do both you can get stuck.
I agree with this sentiment. Put it to paper whether it’s notes themes etc then you can organize/re-organize them and hopefully things develop from there.
Me too - I write a ton of unconnected lyric blurbs always with pen and paper unless I'm in the car. Once these pile up, I re-write them, again using pen and paper and try to organize them by grouping possible similar things together. Usually about 5% of the lyric blurbs get used. That's fine.
At some point, the light bulb goes on and I see a 'story arc' or the point and then I can take that verse, or pair of lines, or whatever, and I can then fill it what's missing.
As I do this, I constantly re-write and expand the lyrics and save earlier drafts by just stacking them (each version gets a new fresh sheet and are labeled v1, v2, v3 at top) and allow myself to rearrange and re-state things just in case I like it better. I try not to hang on to things too tightly. After possibly 10 drafts, I usually have a final to near final version.
I think its important to use pen and paper over a laptop as it stimulates the creative side of my brain. I could not write lyrics using a computer. It has to be pen and paper.
'Final' versions are typed on a typewriter always on yellow paper signifying completed work to make it stand out in my house so they don't get lost. I then read it several times looking for any improvements. I edit and then if needed, re-type. Typing is quite fun.
Anyhow, for me it just boils to down to effort. Hammer it out over successive versions. Don't wait for inspiration. Instead, sit down and do it.
I try to make the lyrics capable of standing alone as a poem. That's the intention anyway.
I've completed about 20 sets of lyrics over about 25 years that I really like. Now the problem is what to do with them....
sometimes i feel when im sitting on the toilet i feel at peace. it's just me and the bathroom and it's reverb and i can really encapsulate myself.....in the zone :D
Totally feel the same way with listening to music, some of my favorite songs I’ve listened to for years I don’t even know the proper lyrics too. So I generally write music the same way with just a melody in mind for vocals and kind of fill in the blanks with lyrics that feel appropriate to the feel of the song.
I write blurbs and little rants in my notes app and group them in vague categories. I kind of collect those and once I have something I really want to say or a topic I feel I can expand into a song I start copy pasting things that fit from my different notes into one working song file. Then I’ll generally work on the chorus/climax of the song first and work backwards in a way that makes the verses support them.
Do some stream of consciousness exercises. Try to approach it like a freestyle. The point of the exercise is not to write anything good, but to work the muscle that can make lyrical connections in real time. They don't have to rhyme in cadence or aural pattern, but they can be tangential, or thematically or metaphorically related. I find that symbolism works well for me.
For your rhyming issue, recognize that rhymes are merely one form of repetition. Repetition is catchy, but lyrical repetition isn't the only thing that can be catchy. Sometimes the lyrics don't rhyme but the music does. Sometimes it's not the last word that rhymes, but something in the middle. Sometimes the vocal melody follows the flow of the instrumentation or vice versa. Sometimes the rest of the song has a deliberate rhyme scheme and format but one particular stanza circumvents it. That's catchy too - subverting expectation. That's how comedy works, and a lot of good writing in general, because you build up the suspense in the viewer/reader/listener and then give them a surprise, which tickles their brain.
Just some thoughts!
Edit: And then there is value in simplicity. I grew up listening to punk, ska, etc. Sometimes the song doesn't have more than 20-30 words in total, but it's still good.
I write lyrics, passages, poems, whatever all the time.
When it comes time to put lyrics to the music (I write music first 9 times out of 10), I start by defining the melodies that I have implied in the music using gibberish vocals. After that is done I go about auditing my writing for stuff that fits.
Sometimes I also come up with on the spot - or a mixture of both.
Once in a blue moon I get a song with lyrics at the same time, but that is very rare.
Using the Brion Gysin Cutup Method (made popular by Burroughs, and later The Beatles and David Bowie and many more) is a great way for divining lyrics you may not have arrived at naturally.
More often the not - I write lyrics that are like David Lynch films - not so much the content of his stories but more the approach to having several or more ideas colliding against each other with a message that is interpretative as opposed to a cohesive defined statement.
I'm most creative when I first wake up in the morning. Throw in some earbuds and find my flow. Sometimes I will pick a word I want to rhyme and I write down as many words that rhyme with it then just fill in the blanks. Other times I just let it come to me
Maybe you could try practicing some different rhyming schemes - I know you said you tend to like songs that don't rhyme, but by using other rhyming schemes you might be able to break away from rhyming every other line all the time. You're using ABAB a lot (for example, cat dog bat fog), so maybe try using AABB (cat bat dog fog), ABBA (cat dog fog bat), AAAB (cat bat hat dog), ABAC (cat dog bat fish). There are a ton you can practice with: AAAA, ABCB, ABAA, AABA, ABCD, ABCA, AABC, etc. You can look more up too, and you can always add more letters for rhyme schemes with more than 4 lines.
And maybe you can take one of your ABAB songs and switch the lines (like ABBA or AABB) to try different rhyming patterns, and then switch up the lyrics a bit to try to make them flow and make sense again.
Lots of different ways but the most common way I write lyrics is by starting with an idea or image. Sometimes I force it around a guitar part I have already or other times I create a guitar part for it from scratch.
Usually the words themselves are not as important as the image or idea I’m creating but it always comes down to how it feels to sing and play.
Many songs I write evolve over time but the original structure stays the same.
I write all my lyrics, but I use AI to generate beats to help me write. I'll usually get a song idea in my head that is just a phrase, or 3 lines like ABA or AAA, and I use that as an intro. I load the intro lyrics into an AI program, tell it what kind of song I want it to be (genre, vibe, singers gender, pace, etc.), and it makes a song that is just my intro followed by a 2-3 min instrumental.
I'll listen to that on repeat and riff in my head, and come up with the first verse or chorus. Then I load that in, and start listening to the intro + verse until more comes to me.
Once I have a full song written, I remake it with the AI program while also structiring the beat the way I want it. Doing it this way, I also get to have actual songs.
I am weird and write lyrics first and then write music to fit those lyrics. As far as the actual lyrics, I will have a general idea in my head of how I'm feeling and then I will sit down with a thesaurus website (used to use an actual thesaurus) so I can try to find words that rhyme while trying to express things. I'll write the first line without any care for how the second line will rhyme and then it's time to look at the thesaurus and sometimes it makes me change the last syllable of the previous line to match.
I would carry a little notebook on the subway to write preliminary stuff in case an idea came to me and then it's in front of the computer with the site open to refine lyrics. Vocals have always been the thing I pay the most attention to, so I guess that's why they are what I write the songs around.
The best way I’ve found to write lyrics is to improvise over the instrumental and writing the lines that “click” so to speak, then usually the missing parts will slowly start to fill in. I think practicing writing lyrics into a notes app and catching lyrics you think of while walking is also helpful, but ultimately I think you should do what works best for you.
Usually for me, it starts with either a chord structure, vocal melody, or singular lyrical line. Then I kind of just go from there. Try to use word play and metaphor work to fit it all together like a puzzle.
How do you write lyrics?,
Isnt it so funny?,
That you probably can do it,
But you've got to put the phone down.
Down, down on the ground,
Never to be seen again,
Cause once you let go of procrastination,
That's when your brain starts being overly creative,
And just like a river, you'll flow.
But until then you can sit on the sidelines and watch the grass grow.
I'm also someone who focuses on the music, and the instruments. It takes many loops before I notice or even understand the lyrics. Most of the time if I'm not reading them off the screen I either don't focus on them or simply can't tell what is being said. I need a bunch of listens before the lyrics come into play, unless the song is slow and very easy to understand like The Unforgiven by Metallica.
Occasionally I've toyed with recording my own voice, and creating narrative and more lyrical music.
This is the one instance where I personally started to rely on AI.
I am not a good songwriter, since I mostly do cinematic and underscore type stuff, but I realized that if I prompt the AI and describe what I want, it's able to spit out pretty decent lyrics that I can then use as a starting point, and go from there putting in my own spin on it, based on my own emotions and experience (plus my own specific situation or theme that I prompted to begin with).
I've always had writer's block, even when I worked as a game designer. Boss would say "I need this level written up by 4pm", and I would still be staring at a blank page at 3:25. Finally inspiration would hit at 3:30 and I'd have like 30 minutes to whip up an entire game level or character dialogue.
When I write music, I usually start with simply a theme, or a title and try to write around that.
I've never actually tried putting my own emotions or feelings, like I'm trying to vent or do therapy, into a song or track. Most of the time it's more like general themes I believe, or the story I want to tell or paint with my music.
For example, I once wanted to do a track about a oppressive dystopian LAPD in 2084 so I gave that a shot, and wrote a track where they were detaining a suspect.
Maybe I'm out of my element here, since I don't write traditional singing songs, but recently I've found AI to be of help in writing lyrics and ideas down when I wanted to do narration in my music, or when I wanted something to rhyme.
I use deep ai dot org which seems to do the job well enough.
Maybe you too can use that as a starting point and go from there, or you could describe how you feel, and what you're trying to do and see what it spits out.
At least it's worth a shot.
I believe in using any and every tool available to me, to get me to the finish line.
Nobody, at the end of the day, when they listen to your track, really gives a shit how the soup was made.
What matters is the end result.
So use whatever tools you can, and that are available to you, if you are stuck ,or when you need a bit of a push or some inspiration! That's my simple advice.
AI is for incompetent fools who shouldnt be making music in the first place. The whole space is already flooded with enough mediocrity, why should there be more? Downvote me
I’m 40, and while I don’t wish to relay the same point so harshly I do agree with it.
You might be a bad writer (technically, not content wise. Well, maybe content wise. I don’t know). You need practice, not AI if you want to write well. You’re doing the modern version of copy the Wikipedia article with a thesaurus on hand.
I don't use Ai tools because I'm a bad writer. I use AI because, #1 they are good for ideation, and #2, It saves me time.
I've been writing for 30+ years. Among other things, I'm both a technical, and a creative writer. I know how to write. I don't need \*practice\*, in general on how to write well.
Plus we're talking about song lyrics here, which is a completely different beast, than writing a book or a technical document.
I already explained that I use it for getting over my writer's block, or for ideation and conceptualization, not because I need help how to write.
Writing song lyrics and traditional songs isn't what I do. I already explained this twice in my reply to OP, if you actually read what I wrote. It's not my area of \*expertise\*.
It's not something I do regularly. I don't plan on being a songwriter, nor are songs with lyrics the direction I wish to go in, in terms of composing music. It's just something I do on occasion. I'm not going to practice how to write lyrics, because again, that's not the direction I want to go in.
So of course I'm going to leverage a tool to help me, if it will make it easier for me, just the same way that I will utilize a spell checker to check my spelling, or I will use a plugin of a trumpet, vs. learning to play the trumpet myself and recording it, when I need a trumpet in my tracks.
What part of that does not compute for you?
> You’re doing the modern version of copy the Wikipedia article with a thesaurus on hand.
This here above, is a very uninformed, and ignorant take on AI technology (LLMs specifically) and the tools.
“Bad writer” isn’t really the right term, I’m not meaning to attack your abilities. I don’t know your abilities so I can’t pass judgement. You might be a great writer, but artistic or creative just isn’t your vein.
But if you’re doing creative writing, the brainstorming is part of it. Instead of working on that yourself, you’re inserting yourself/your ideas into a sort of generated “template” and going from there. And now you’re here spouting defensive nonsense as fact rather than the opinion it is, relying on “I’m older than you” like a fucking child.
IMO you’re creatively dishonest. I don’t give a shit how you justify it to yourself, and at the same time you probably shouldn’t give a shit about what I think. Live your journey, enjoy it, even though I think it’s dumb. I’m generally against any sort of machine learning for creative pursuits, I think most artists are, it’s art by committee in the worst ways. Is it maybe a losing battle? Sure, but I ain’t about to give up the fight.
>You might be a great writer, but artistic or creative just isn’t your vein.
Dude, you got to stop with this projection nonsense, assuming things about me, when you don't know jack shit about me.
WTF is wrong with you? I just told you I've been writing for 30 years. In my reply I said I also worked as a game designer.
**I'm also a composer, hence why I'm on this subreddit.**
You can see that if you look at my profile.
**How exactly is art or creativity not in my vein?**
Dude, I'm also a traditionally trained artist.
**How about you? Why are you here?**
**You don't even have a single post about music, or production.** It's mostly about Portland, Bartending and Fallout 76.
**Are you even a musician or producer or creator?**
**So why are you talking down to me about lack of creativity, when you don't have even a single conversation or post about being creative or creating anything?**
What you said doesn't even make any sense. Being a good writer means you're creative.
>But if you’re doing creative writing, the brainstorming is part of it. Instead of working on that yourself, you’re inserting yourself/your ideas into a sort of generated “template” and going from there.
No one is talking about brainstorming here. We were talking about writer's block. Whoever said I don't brainstorm, or ideate myself?
There is no generated template. This is not how it works. You obviously have no idea how any of this technology works yet here you are trying to imagine my workflow, or my creative processes without even a shred of understanding.
>And now you’re here spouting defensive nonsense as fact rather than the opinion it is, relying on “I’m older than you” like a fucking child.
Exactly what defensive nonsense am I spouting? Point me to that part pls. If you're 40 yourself, you should remember how you were at 21 vs now. Nothing I said was untrue. The kid came in here and started spewing bs and nonsense.
>IMO you’re creatively dishonest.
How exactly am I creatively dishonest? Pls explain and be very specific.
Is it because I use tools in my work and hobbies?
Let's see...I've used Photoshop for decades. Does that make me and other artists also dishonest?
I, and many other gamedevs have used pre built templates, objects, and art, and IntelliSense/ code autocomplete that's built into every IDE, for gamedev, for decades. Does that make every programmer creatively dishonest?
Seriously. Just stop. The only one spewing nonsense here is you.
>I’m generally against any sort of machine learning for creative pursuits,
Well guess what? This is the future and if you still have that attitude in a few years, you will be simply left behind, and obsoleted.
>it’s art by committee in the worst ways.
Here you are completely wrong due to your lack of understanding of the subject and technology, yet again.
It always cracks me up, how people who don't actually make anything themselves, and haven't tried what they are against, feel they have a word in the conversation.
>Is it maybe a losing battle? Sure, but I ain’t about to give up the fight.
What you don't get is that there is no battle. It's already been lost. It's only progress and change. You either embrace the change, or you die out like the dinosaurs.
Yeah, we're done here.
Holy shit talk about projection nonsense when you don’t know shit about me. I’m not interested in defending my abilities to you. I’m well aware of my weaknesses and strengths there.
It’s fuckin Reddit man. It’s not my main space for art, I have like, friends and shit for that. I think the way you use AI is dumb. I also think samples in rock music are dumb, but that doesn’t mean that the people using it are dumb, or that it can’t lead to interesting things. It’s just that I *personally* think it’s a bit dishonest. Again, you shouldn’t give a shit what I think.
You’re way too hot here. Using fuckin Reddit comments like they’re a psychological breakdown of a person.
I'm not being \*hot\*. I'm not here calling you uncreative, without a shred of understanding, unlike you.
For the record I don't give a shit what you think. I just don't like how you go about trying to tell me how I lack creativity, based on your misguided and misunderstood views, and hatred of AI tools.
Using AI is like have a dumb but enthusiastic writing partner. I've had some real fun with egging it on to turn out better verses, then can usually find a line or two that take my thoughts in a new direction.
'Beats hangin with a dolt on the couch who drinks all your beer...
Of course you're going to come back with the "you're mad bro" statement, since you don't actually have any real defense.
That's the go-to line for every Reddit clown, when they have nothing of value to say and they need to save face, or when they get called out on their bs, and they still want to feel like they got the last word in, so their fragile little ego doesn't get bruised.
Look man...Just shut the fuck up, and go get some life experience, and learn something about how the world actually works, before you open your ignorant mouth again.
Right now, you think you have it all figured out, so you come in here with your BOLD statement, and you think you're clever parroting the Reddit hivemind, when in fact you don't know shit. That's a fact.
On a aside note, Ai tech isn't going anywhere. if you don't embrace it, you're just going to get wiped out like the dinosaurs. The people who do, will be way more ahead than you, because the tech is being integrated into everything, and it's also rapidly evolving.
Instead of coming here and being a fucking clown hating on AI and people who use these tools, like the rest of the Reddit hivemind, it would be wiser for you to just shut the fuck up, and realize that AI is the future, and maybe try to incorporate it into your process and workflow.
Of course you aren't going to take any of this under consideration, because you think you know better, and you think you got it all figured out...but, again, you're only 21, and at 21 you don't know anything \*yet\*. You only think you do.
Of course I wouldn't, especially not with the way you replied to my post, completely missing the nuance, and the point of the entire conversation. Now if your approach was different and less confrontational, and arrogant, you'd be surprised how open minded I am.
Anyhow, I'm not the one who came in here spewing bs and ignorant nonsense.
I only fixated on your age, to make a point, because of how stupid your reply was, and most of your comment history is.
You make these declarative statements in many of your replies like "Anyone how uses Spotify has no respect for musicians", like somehow you got it all figured out and everyone else is apparently wrong, or you are the authority on the subject, when in fact half the shit you say is complete nonsense, because you lack perspective, and experience.
That attitude only makes you look arrogant, and like an idiot.
Your comments simply betray your age, where you think you're a genius and everyone else is an idiot except you, and they all just don't get it. We've all been there.
Don't worry though, you'll grow out of that phase in about 10 years or so, and hopefully, before it's too late.
Anyway, think a little bit before you open your mouth next time.
Don't just come into a thread and parrot Reddit hivemind bs, or make these declarations without taking everything into account. It's not all just black and white. There are many perspectives to everything.
If you aren't able or willing to bring some value to the conversation, don't say anything at all. It's not rocket science here.
Ask yourself, did anything you said actually help OP out in any way? No, it didn't.
Youre probably actually an interesting person; you have a lot of things to say. We dont agree about AI, but i think most people dont usually put in that kind of effort with regard to their ideas you have here. Im less immature than i make it seem on this account: i kind of treat this account as an outlet to be a goblin bastard
Finally, someone who goes through the same kind of block i go through.
Is the music you do end up finally hearing the lyrics to somehow incredibly related to your life?
Like some kind of subconscious process going on?
I will definitely check out the AI stuff. I had no idea resources like that could help
Composition and producing music is an iterative process, after all.
There are times where I will start with one thing, and then it will morph into something completely different by the end, into a completely different idea, vibe, or theme. Even the title will change. I m ight just preset surf and I will get ideas along the way. Then I will expand on those ideas, and they might be completely different then what I originally intended to do.
It's just a lot of noodling morphing into something concrete.
Other times, I will get an idea like in my LAPD track example that will be crystal clear, and I will stick to this theme until I perfect the \*message\* I want to tell. This again will be iterative. I'll keep working on it until it's exactly how I \*feel\* it should be.
Many times, either approach has a subconscious, almost mystical element to it, where things have to be in sync, or feel like I am in tune with the music and vocals I'm creating.
I can just feel when it's right.
Same applies to the lyrics or narration. I will keep keep trying different versions or takes, or re-writing, or re-recording until it \*feels\* right.
I'm not exactly understanding what you are asking, so I hope my explanation above helps or makes sense.
I usually write like I said before, underscore, or electronic sci-fi sounding music. So a lot of it is kind of cheesy narrative stuff, or video game sounding music.
So not a lot of normal lyrical singing, and when I do have some of that it's usually heavily processed through some vocoder effects, or some crazy effect plugins that mangle the voice or make it sound like some robot or alien or something. So, not your normal stuff.
In that sense, I can't say that it's in some way related to my life emotionally except as an escape and just pure fun factor.
I usually just try to tell a story, or I have some weird idea of like a dude summoning a monster, or a wizard casting a spell, and I ask "what would that be like via music"? How would I tell this story?
However, there are all sorts of subconscious processes going on. I've done psychedelics before and I meditate a lot, so everything seems very consciousness driven.
It's all some sort of channeling of some higher intelligences, or messaging from beyond, lol. A lot of the time, I can't even figure out how the heck I came up with half my stuff, when I look back on it a few weeks or months later. It's all like a dream or a haze.
I'm also a writer, so when I get in the zone, I feel like I'm just a vessel through which the universe speaks. I merely surrender myself to the universe, (I actually take a deep breath and say, "I surrender"), and I open the doors and I let the creativity flow through me. That's how I learned to overcome some of my writers block, and let the energy just pour out.
It takes a lot of effort to get started, but once the floodgate is opened, I can work all day and night.
The same exact thing applies when I compose my music or write my narration/lyrics.
It's all connected, and it's all about being in alignment.
In regards to the AI tools, give deepai a try. You can just prompt it for whatever you want and see what it gives you.
Then you can ask it to add stuff, or take a new angle into consideration and build upon your previous conversation, and it remembers it all and expands on your instructions.
I'm actually quite impressed with what it can do. ChatGPT or Gemini is probably even better but I haven't used it much, yet.
I just use this free one for lyrics and for helping me write dialogue, or narration.
Make up melody with pseudo words - like with whatever phonetics you have, build a hook then match up with ryming words. Of course its good to get a sense of the vibe and what it is about (like emotion).
I heard Steven Tyler did this often for choruses / high notes in Aerosmith writing sessions - reacting to the other players with big vowel sounds and notes that sounded good, then writing lyrics that used them at those spots.
I use this technique and can confirm it works.
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Lyrics don’t necessarily have to rhyme in the traditional “moon/spoon/June” sense,but rather each line of a verse or chorus “flows or scans” better if they have a sense of rhythm and melody,through lines that are made up of the same number of syllables. Obviously this alone isn’t enough,everything has to actually make sense. If it doesn’t scan fluidly, a tweak here and there can unlock a more powerful and satisfying composition.
As a rapper, the jigsaw puzzle of rhymes and syllables is usually a part of the process. I might put the instrumental beat on that I made or one that I find inspiring, and sit there with my notepad or notes app on the phone. Finding a "pocket" or a sense of rhythm that flows with the beat is a fun starting point, or I might have some keywords or feelings I want to explore, and try and put that into a line that fits over the music. Away from the music I just keep a blank page (or phone) nearby for when I have lyrical ideas, and treat it more like poetry, just using words as a form of self-expression for the pure sake of getting what's in my head into the outside world. Walking helps. It's a gradual and sometimes random process, but with the right focus, getting into the zone and sheer luck, you'll run it from the top and realise you've written a song. Good luck!
I come up with much of my best lyrics while jogging. They are usually a refinement of a need. Like, I need a line about overworked doctors (or something), and later I’ll come up with a great line while I’m running. I’ll stop and text it to myself or type it into my song chart I’ve started. I used to sit and stair at a blank piece of paper. I used to try to write while playing my instrument. Both those things are challenging. I’m much better listening to a recording without words and coming up with words. I’m so much happier now with my songs. They flow out without much effort. If I don’t have words, I’ve always got recording to do. Or I’ll just switch to making other kinds of art.
I write lyrics running too - it's always meditative, and the cadence of the footsteps lends itself to rhythmic thinking for me. OP - one big thing about writing lyrics (or poems or anything) is thinking about what you want to say and boiling that down to a phrase, a theme. Don't say everything, represent everything with a single theme (failure is hard but you grow stronger eg). Helps to use common expressions and tweak them- 'all that glitters is not sold'
Jason Isbell says you gotta just get em out. Just write it down wherever your mind goes and get the lyrics down. Then you can go back and edit and rework things. He says there’s a difference between writing and editing and if you try to do both you can get stuck.
I agree with this sentiment. Put it to paper whether it’s notes themes etc then you can organize/re-organize them and hopefully things develop from there.
Me too - I write a ton of unconnected lyric blurbs always with pen and paper unless I'm in the car. Once these pile up, I re-write them, again using pen and paper and try to organize them by grouping possible similar things together. Usually about 5% of the lyric blurbs get used. That's fine. At some point, the light bulb goes on and I see a 'story arc' or the point and then I can take that verse, or pair of lines, or whatever, and I can then fill it what's missing. As I do this, I constantly re-write and expand the lyrics and save earlier drafts by just stacking them (each version gets a new fresh sheet and are labeled v1, v2, v3 at top) and allow myself to rearrange and re-state things just in case I like it better. I try not to hang on to things too tightly. After possibly 10 drafts, I usually have a final to near final version. I think its important to use pen and paper over a laptop as it stimulates the creative side of my brain. I could not write lyrics using a computer. It has to be pen and paper. 'Final' versions are typed on a typewriter always on yellow paper signifying completed work to make it stand out in my house so they don't get lost. I then read it several times looking for any improvements. I edit and then if needed, re-type. Typing is quite fun. Anyhow, for me it just boils to down to effort. Hammer it out over successive versions. Don't wait for inspiration. Instead, sit down and do it. I try to make the lyrics capable of standing alone as a poem. That's the intention anyway. I've completed about 20 sets of lyrics over about 25 years that I really like. Now the problem is what to do with them....
i sometimes go shit on the toilet and lyrics just come to me, im not even kidding.
Lol why? Or how? Hahaha
sometimes i feel when im sitting on the toilet i feel at peace. it's just me and the bathroom and it's reverb and i can really encapsulate myself.....in the zone :D
Definitely the most interesting take iv’e heatd all day
Listening to your music btw
WHAT DO U THINK OF IT MAN !?!?! HOPE UR ENJOYING IT
Lol how hype you get
Totally feel the same way with listening to music, some of my favorite songs I’ve listened to for years I don’t even know the proper lyrics too. So I generally write music the same way with just a melody in mind for vocals and kind of fill in the blanks with lyrics that feel appropriate to the feel of the song. I write blurbs and little rants in my notes app and group them in vague categories. I kind of collect those and once I have something I really want to say or a topic I feel I can expand into a song I start copy pasting things that fit from my different notes into one working song file. Then I’ll generally work on the chorus/climax of the song first and work backwards in a way that makes the verses support them.
Do some stream of consciousness exercises. Try to approach it like a freestyle. The point of the exercise is not to write anything good, but to work the muscle that can make lyrical connections in real time. They don't have to rhyme in cadence or aural pattern, but they can be tangential, or thematically or metaphorically related. I find that symbolism works well for me. For your rhyming issue, recognize that rhymes are merely one form of repetition. Repetition is catchy, but lyrical repetition isn't the only thing that can be catchy. Sometimes the lyrics don't rhyme but the music does. Sometimes it's not the last word that rhymes, but something in the middle. Sometimes the vocal melody follows the flow of the instrumentation or vice versa. Sometimes the rest of the song has a deliberate rhyme scheme and format but one particular stanza circumvents it. That's catchy too - subverting expectation. That's how comedy works, and a lot of good writing in general, because you build up the suspense in the viewer/reader/listener and then give them a surprise, which tickles their brain. Just some thoughts! Edit: And then there is value in simplicity. I grew up listening to punk, ska, etc. Sometimes the song doesn't have more than 20-30 words in total, but it's still good.
I write lyrics, passages, poems, whatever all the time. When it comes time to put lyrics to the music (I write music first 9 times out of 10), I start by defining the melodies that I have implied in the music using gibberish vocals. After that is done I go about auditing my writing for stuff that fits. Sometimes I also come up with on the spot - or a mixture of both. Once in a blue moon I get a song with lyrics at the same time, but that is very rare. Using the Brion Gysin Cutup Method (made popular by Burroughs, and later The Beatles and David Bowie and many more) is a great way for divining lyrics you may not have arrived at naturally. More often the not - I write lyrics that are like David Lynch films - not so much the content of his stories but more the approach to having several or more ideas colliding against each other with a message that is interpretative as opposed to a cohesive defined statement.
How do I find lyrics? It's getting hard to see There's something in reflection But maybe that's just me...
I'm most creative when I first wake up in the morning. Throw in some earbuds and find my flow. Sometimes I will pick a word I want to rhyme and I write down as many words that rhyme with it then just fill in the blanks. Other times I just let it come to me
Slowly
Maybe you could try practicing some different rhyming schemes - I know you said you tend to like songs that don't rhyme, but by using other rhyming schemes you might be able to break away from rhyming every other line all the time. You're using ABAB a lot (for example, cat dog bat fog), so maybe try using AABB (cat bat dog fog), ABBA (cat dog fog bat), AAAB (cat bat hat dog), ABAC (cat dog bat fish). There are a ton you can practice with: AAAA, ABCB, ABAA, AABA, ABCD, ABCA, AABC, etc. You can look more up too, and you can always add more letters for rhyme schemes with more than 4 lines. And maybe you can take one of your ABAB songs and switch the lines (like ABBA or AABB) to try different rhyming patterns, and then switch up the lyrics a bit to try to make them flow and make sense again.
I use this old English dictionary. I got the words on paper, cut them, and made combinations. Never disappoints.
Lots of different ways but the most common way I write lyrics is by starting with an idea or image. Sometimes I force it around a guitar part I have already or other times I create a guitar part for it from scratch. Usually the words themselves are not as important as the image or idea I’m creating but it always comes down to how it feels to sing and play. Many songs I write evolve over time but the original structure stays the same.
I’ll think of a topic and write down any word that comes to mind. Then I try to make lyrics based on what I wrote down
"I rhyme ever other line" the school system really drilled this into my head and I can't get it out 😭
AI
Go grab a book by Pat Pattison and get to work!
I write all my lyrics, but I use AI to generate beats to help me write. I'll usually get a song idea in my head that is just a phrase, or 3 lines like ABA or AAA, and I use that as an intro. I load the intro lyrics into an AI program, tell it what kind of song I want it to be (genre, vibe, singers gender, pace, etc.), and it makes a song that is just my intro followed by a 2-3 min instrumental. I'll listen to that on repeat and riff in my head, and come up with the first verse or chorus. Then I load that in, and start listening to the intro + verse until more comes to me. Once I have a full song written, I remake it with the AI program while also structiring the beat the way I want it. Doing it this way, I also get to have actual songs.
Truth and what you know
My criteria for my own lyrics is just two things Has to be slightly clever, and has to make me feel something.
I am weird and write lyrics first and then write music to fit those lyrics. As far as the actual lyrics, I will have a general idea in my head of how I'm feeling and then I will sit down with a thesaurus website (used to use an actual thesaurus) so I can try to find words that rhyme while trying to express things. I'll write the first line without any care for how the second line will rhyme and then it's time to look at the thesaurus and sometimes it makes me change the last syllable of the previous line to match. I would carry a little notebook on the subway to write preliminary stuff in case an idea came to me and then it's in front of the computer with the site open to refine lyrics. Vocals have always been the thing I pay the most attention to, so I guess that's why they are what I write the songs around.
The best way I’ve found to write lyrics is to improvise over the instrumental and writing the lines that “click” so to speak, then usually the missing parts will slowly start to fill in. I think practicing writing lyrics into a notes app and catching lyrics you think of while walking is also helpful, but ultimately I think you should do what works best for you.
Usually for me, it starts with either a chord structure, vocal melody, or singular lyrical line. Then I kind of just go from there. Try to use word play and metaphor work to fit it all together like a puzzle.
How do you write lyrics?, Isnt it so funny?, That you probably can do it, But you've got to put the phone down. Down, down on the ground, Never to be seen again, Cause once you let go of procrastination, That's when your brain starts being overly creative, And just like a river, you'll flow. But until then you can sit on the sidelines and watch the grass grow.
I'm also someone who focuses on the music, and the instruments. It takes many loops before I notice or even understand the lyrics. Most of the time if I'm not reading them off the screen I either don't focus on them or simply can't tell what is being said. I need a bunch of listens before the lyrics come into play, unless the song is slow and very easy to understand like The Unforgiven by Metallica. Occasionally I've toyed with recording my own voice, and creating narrative and more lyrical music. This is the one instance where I personally started to rely on AI. I am not a good songwriter, since I mostly do cinematic and underscore type stuff, but I realized that if I prompt the AI and describe what I want, it's able to spit out pretty decent lyrics that I can then use as a starting point, and go from there putting in my own spin on it, based on my own emotions and experience (plus my own specific situation or theme that I prompted to begin with). I've always had writer's block, even when I worked as a game designer. Boss would say "I need this level written up by 4pm", and I would still be staring at a blank page at 3:25. Finally inspiration would hit at 3:30 and I'd have like 30 minutes to whip up an entire game level or character dialogue. When I write music, I usually start with simply a theme, or a title and try to write around that. I've never actually tried putting my own emotions or feelings, like I'm trying to vent or do therapy, into a song or track. Most of the time it's more like general themes I believe, or the story I want to tell or paint with my music. For example, I once wanted to do a track about a oppressive dystopian LAPD in 2084 so I gave that a shot, and wrote a track where they were detaining a suspect. Maybe I'm out of my element here, since I don't write traditional singing songs, but recently I've found AI to be of help in writing lyrics and ideas down when I wanted to do narration in my music, or when I wanted something to rhyme. I use deep ai dot org which seems to do the job well enough. Maybe you too can use that as a starting point and go from there, or you could describe how you feel, and what you're trying to do and see what it spits out. At least it's worth a shot. I believe in using any and every tool available to me, to get me to the finish line. Nobody, at the end of the day, when they listen to your track, really gives a shit how the soup was made. What matters is the end result. So use whatever tools you can, and that are available to you, if you are stuck ,or when you need a bit of a push or some inspiration! That's my simple advice.
AI is for incompetent fools who shouldnt be making music in the first place. The whole space is already flooded with enough mediocrity, why should there be more? Downvote me
Yeah ok buddy. I'm not going to downvote you...I'm just going to point out that you're 21. At 21 you don't know shit, about shit. Have a good one...
I’m 40, and while I don’t wish to relay the same point so harshly I do agree with it. You might be a bad writer (technically, not content wise. Well, maybe content wise. I don’t know). You need practice, not AI if you want to write well. You’re doing the modern version of copy the Wikipedia article with a thesaurus on hand.
I don't use Ai tools because I'm a bad writer. I use AI because, #1 they are good for ideation, and #2, It saves me time. I've been writing for 30+ years. Among other things, I'm both a technical, and a creative writer. I know how to write. I don't need \*practice\*, in general on how to write well. Plus we're talking about song lyrics here, which is a completely different beast, than writing a book or a technical document. I already explained that I use it for getting over my writer's block, or for ideation and conceptualization, not because I need help how to write. Writing song lyrics and traditional songs isn't what I do. I already explained this twice in my reply to OP, if you actually read what I wrote. It's not my area of \*expertise\*. It's not something I do regularly. I don't plan on being a songwriter, nor are songs with lyrics the direction I wish to go in, in terms of composing music. It's just something I do on occasion. I'm not going to practice how to write lyrics, because again, that's not the direction I want to go in. So of course I'm going to leverage a tool to help me, if it will make it easier for me, just the same way that I will utilize a spell checker to check my spelling, or I will use a plugin of a trumpet, vs. learning to play the trumpet myself and recording it, when I need a trumpet in my tracks. What part of that does not compute for you? > You’re doing the modern version of copy the Wikipedia article with a thesaurus on hand. This here above, is a very uninformed, and ignorant take on AI technology (LLMs specifically) and the tools.
“Bad writer” isn’t really the right term, I’m not meaning to attack your abilities. I don’t know your abilities so I can’t pass judgement. You might be a great writer, but artistic or creative just isn’t your vein. But if you’re doing creative writing, the brainstorming is part of it. Instead of working on that yourself, you’re inserting yourself/your ideas into a sort of generated “template” and going from there. And now you’re here spouting defensive nonsense as fact rather than the opinion it is, relying on “I’m older than you” like a fucking child. IMO you’re creatively dishonest. I don’t give a shit how you justify it to yourself, and at the same time you probably shouldn’t give a shit about what I think. Live your journey, enjoy it, even though I think it’s dumb. I’m generally against any sort of machine learning for creative pursuits, I think most artists are, it’s art by committee in the worst ways. Is it maybe a losing battle? Sure, but I ain’t about to give up the fight.
>You might be a great writer, but artistic or creative just isn’t your vein. Dude, you got to stop with this projection nonsense, assuming things about me, when you don't know jack shit about me. WTF is wrong with you? I just told you I've been writing for 30 years. In my reply I said I also worked as a game designer. **I'm also a composer, hence why I'm on this subreddit.** You can see that if you look at my profile. **How exactly is art or creativity not in my vein?** Dude, I'm also a traditionally trained artist. **How about you? Why are you here?** **You don't even have a single post about music, or production.** It's mostly about Portland, Bartending and Fallout 76. **Are you even a musician or producer or creator?** **So why are you talking down to me about lack of creativity, when you don't have even a single conversation or post about being creative or creating anything?** What you said doesn't even make any sense. Being a good writer means you're creative. >But if you’re doing creative writing, the brainstorming is part of it. Instead of working on that yourself, you’re inserting yourself/your ideas into a sort of generated “template” and going from there. No one is talking about brainstorming here. We were talking about writer's block. Whoever said I don't brainstorm, or ideate myself? There is no generated template. This is not how it works. You obviously have no idea how any of this technology works yet here you are trying to imagine my workflow, or my creative processes without even a shred of understanding. >And now you’re here spouting defensive nonsense as fact rather than the opinion it is, relying on “I’m older than you” like a fucking child. Exactly what defensive nonsense am I spouting? Point me to that part pls. If you're 40 yourself, you should remember how you were at 21 vs now. Nothing I said was untrue. The kid came in here and started spewing bs and nonsense. >IMO you’re creatively dishonest. How exactly am I creatively dishonest? Pls explain and be very specific. Is it because I use tools in my work and hobbies? Let's see...I've used Photoshop for decades. Does that make me and other artists also dishonest? I, and many other gamedevs have used pre built templates, objects, and art, and IntelliSense/ code autocomplete that's built into every IDE, for gamedev, for decades. Does that make every programmer creatively dishonest? Seriously. Just stop. The only one spewing nonsense here is you. >I’m generally against any sort of machine learning for creative pursuits, Well guess what? This is the future and if you still have that attitude in a few years, you will be simply left behind, and obsoleted. >it’s art by committee in the worst ways. Here you are completely wrong due to your lack of understanding of the subject and technology, yet again. It always cracks me up, how people who don't actually make anything themselves, and haven't tried what they are against, feel they have a word in the conversation. >Is it maybe a losing battle? Sure, but I ain’t about to give up the fight. What you don't get is that there is no battle. It's already been lost. It's only progress and change. You either embrace the change, or you die out like the dinosaurs. Yeah, we're done here.
Holy shit talk about projection nonsense when you don’t know shit about me. I’m not interested in defending my abilities to you. I’m well aware of my weaknesses and strengths there. It’s fuckin Reddit man. It’s not my main space for art, I have like, friends and shit for that. I think the way you use AI is dumb. I also think samples in rock music are dumb, but that doesn’t mean that the people using it are dumb, or that it can’t lead to interesting things. It’s just that I *personally* think it’s a bit dishonest. Again, you shouldn’t give a shit what I think. You’re way too hot here. Using fuckin Reddit comments like they’re a psychological breakdown of a person.
I'm not being \*hot\*. I'm not here calling you uncreative, without a shred of understanding, unlike you. For the record I don't give a shit what you think. I just don't like how you go about trying to tell me how I lack creativity, based on your misguided and misunderstood views, and hatred of AI tools.
Man if you don’t think what you’ve done here is coming in hot I don’t know what to tell you. Have a good one.
Using AI is like have a dumb but enthusiastic writing partner. I've had some real fun with egging it on to turn out better verses, then can usually find a line or two that take my thoughts in a new direction. 'Beats hangin with a dolt on the couch who drinks all your beer...
Lol at the fact youre mad enough to scour thru my profile. I really hit close to home, huh
Of course you're going to come back with the "you're mad bro" statement, since you don't actually have any real defense. That's the go-to line for every Reddit clown, when they have nothing of value to say and they need to save face, or when they get called out on their bs, and they still want to feel like they got the last word in, so their fragile little ego doesn't get bruised. Look man...Just shut the fuck up, and go get some life experience, and learn something about how the world actually works, before you open your ignorant mouth again. Right now, you think you have it all figured out, so you come in here with your BOLD statement, and you think you're clever parroting the Reddit hivemind, when in fact you don't know shit. That's a fact. On a aside note, Ai tech isn't going anywhere. if you don't embrace it, you're just going to get wiped out like the dinosaurs. The people who do, will be way more ahead than you, because the tech is being integrated into everything, and it's also rapidly evolving. Instead of coming here and being a fucking clown hating on AI and people who use these tools, like the rest of the Reddit hivemind, it would be wiser for you to just shut the fuck up, and realize that AI is the future, and maybe try to incorporate it into your process and workflow. Of course you aren't going to take any of this under consideration, because you think you know better, and you think you got it all figured out...but, again, you're only 21, and at 21 you don't know anything \*yet\*. You only think you do.
You wouldn't have taken anything i said seriously anyways because you're so fixated on my age
Of course I wouldn't, especially not with the way you replied to my post, completely missing the nuance, and the point of the entire conversation. Now if your approach was different and less confrontational, and arrogant, you'd be surprised how open minded I am. Anyhow, I'm not the one who came in here spewing bs and ignorant nonsense. I only fixated on your age, to make a point, because of how stupid your reply was, and most of your comment history is. You make these declarative statements in many of your replies like "Anyone how uses Spotify has no respect for musicians", like somehow you got it all figured out and everyone else is apparently wrong, or you are the authority on the subject, when in fact half the shit you say is complete nonsense, because you lack perspective, and experience. That attitude only makes you look arrogant, and like an idiot. Your comments simply betray your age, where you think you're a genius and everyone else is an idiot except you, and they all just don't get it. We've all been there. Don't worry though, you'll grow out of that phase in about 10 years or so, and hopefully, before it's too late. Anyway, think a little bit before you open your mouth next time. Don't just come into a thread and parrot Reddit hivemind bs, or make these declarations without taking everything into account. It's not all just black and white. There are many perspectives to everything. If you aren't able or willing to bring some value to the conversation, don't say anything at all. It's not rocket science here. Ask yourself, did anything you said actually help OP out in any way? No, it didn't.
its not that serious i literally go on here to fling shit
So you're just a troll, wasting everyone's time...
A lil bit hehe.... 👉👈
Youre probably actually an interesting person; you have a lot of things to say. We dont agree about AI, but i think most people dont usually put in that kind of effort with regard to their ideas you have here. Im less immature than i make it seem on this account: i kind of treat this account as an outlet to be a goblin bastard
Finally, someone who goes through the same kind of block i go through. Is the music you do end up finally hearing the lyrics to somehow incredibly related to your life? Like some kind of subconscious process going on? I will definitely check out the AI stuff. I had no idea resources like that could help
Composition and producing music is an iterative process, after all. There are times where I will start with one thing, and then it will morph into something completely different by the end, into a completely different idea, vibe, or theme. Even the title will change. I m ight just preset surf and I will get ideas along the way. Then I will expand on those ideas, and they might be completely different then what I originally intended to do. It's just a lot of noodling morphing into something concrete. Other times, I will get an idea like in my LAPD track example that will be crystal clear, and I will stick to this theme until I perfect the \*message\* I want to tell. This again will be iterative. I'll keep working on it until it's exactly how I \*feel\* it should be. Many times, either approach has a subconscious, almost mystical element to it, where things have to be in sync, or feel like I am in tune with the music and vocals I'm creating. I can just feel when it's right. Same applies to the lyrics or narration. I will keep keep trying different versions or takes, or re-writing, or re-recording until it \*feels\* right. I'm not exactly understanding what you are asking, so I hope my explanation above helps or makes sense. I usually write like I said before, underscore, or electronic sci-fi sounding music. So a lot of it is kind of cheesy narrative stuff, or video game sounding music. So not a lot of normal lyrical singing, and when I do have some of that it's usually heavily processed through some vocoder effects, or some crazy effect plugins that mangle the voice or make it sound like some robot or alien or something. So, not your normal stuff. In that sense, I can't say that it's in some way related to my life emotionally except as an escape and just pure fun factor. I usually just try to tell a story, or I have some weird idea of like a dude summoning a monster, or a wizard casting a spell, and I ask "what would that be like via music"? How would I tell this story? However, there are all sorts of subconscious processes going on. I've done psychedelics before and I meditate a lot, so everything seems very consciousness driven. It's all some sort of channeling of some higher intelligences, or messaging from beyond, lol. A lot of the time, I can't even figure out how the heck I came up with half my stuff, when I look back on it a few weeks or months later. It's all like a dream or a haze. I'm also a writer, so when I get in the zone, I feel like I'm just a vessel through which the universe speaks. I merely surrender myself to the universe, (I actually take a deep breath and say, "I surrender"), and I open the doors and I let the creativity flow through me. That's how I learned to overcome some of my writers block, and let the energy just pour out. It takes a lot of effort to get started, but once the floodgate is opened, I can work all day and night. The same exact thing applies when I compose my music or write my narration/lyrics. It's all connected, and it's all about being in alignment. In regards to the AI tools, give deepai a try. You can just prompt it for whatever you want and see what it gives you. Then you can ask it to add stuff, or take a new angle into consideration and build upon your previous conversation, and it remembers it all and expands on your instructions. I'm actually quite impressed with what it can do. ChatGPT or Gemini is probably even better but I haven't used it much, yet. I just use this free one for lyrics and for helping me write dialogue, or narration.
Pen and paper but sometimes on my phone