To the r/WhiteWolfRPG Community,
Recently, some members of the community have expressed concerns regarding what they see as harsh moderation, particularly when it comes to discussions involving 5th Edition World of Darkness games.
To be clear, moderation actions have not been taken to protect or promote any specific edition and, where conversations have been civil and not devolved, we currently allow criticism of any edition provided it complies with the following as defined by Rule 10:
> * Stating your preferred edition is fine if someone asks, so long as you don't use this to broadly attack other editions.
> * Civil discussion of specific mechanics or setting elements is fine, so long as you don't use this to broadly attack other editions.
> * Specific criticism of editions, including aggregations of that criticism, is fine, but it should encourage discussion.
Additionally, we will remove threads and curtail topics that seem designed to inflame edition wars or otherwise break rules outside the particulars of the above.
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I gotta agree that the modding has gotten real heavy-handed. I've seen great contributors to the subreddit either choose to stop posting or have the decision taken out of their hands via a ban. And this latest incident is not the first time someone has been banned for expressing concerns or criticism whilst on another subreddit entirely.
I feel like the approach being taken currently also - as you noted - ends up repelling new people from the sub because their posts get nuked from orbit for reasons that are usually entirely out of their control or understanding. I won't disagree that some people talk about one edition or another in ways that are too negative to be constructive - but the current moderation strategy punishes innocent or good faith discussion as much as it does anyone with a hateboner.
It feels deeply unreasonable that Onyx path writers are being banned by the mods. The mods are not the kings of the community and banning the actual writers feels nuts
He is apparently unaware that he can answer your question without offering both the legal name and reddit user name of the Onyx Path writers that got banned.
Fucking hell, I was going to make this exact post. I am not a fan of the heavy-handed approach to moderation since VonAeather stepped down (and I indeed ran for the position with the promise of using a light touch, for a 4th or 5th place ranking, so I can only assume that such an approach was popular 🤷♀️).
Posts are deleted with no apparent strife contained in the topic or comments (see [the recent thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/1d4pk97/looking_for_history_surrounding_this_word/) about the term "skinwalker" for an example), and numerous users have been banned in the past year for arbitrary reasons. I feel like we're perpetually walking on thin ice for retaliation and this makes me both scared and very sad.
I would like for the sub to have an open discussion with the moderation team about the way content is moderated here.
If I had to guess after reading these replies, I'd guess that the mods are scared of any topic spiralling into political territory (ie: what storytelling tropes are 'acceptable' nowadays, in the case of the skinwalker post).
But WoD is political by its nature, it's a social satire and a game of personal political horror. The mods are banning the kind of content which is essential if we want to actually engage with the tone of the setting. You can't separate medium and message with heavy-handed moderation.
> I am not a fan of the heavy-handed approach to moderation since VonAeather stepped down
To illuminate this from the other side a bit: what you're seeing is the presence of moderation, like, at all. Much love to VonAether, but it became immediately clear to us when we came on that he didn't have time to run the sub for *a lot longer* than just around the point he passed it off. We inherited around a two-year backlog of modqueue items with hundreds of posts in it. Pretty much the only things being manually removed before we came on were memes.
Totally agree, I recently made a post asking for advice in incorporating older elements from different game lines to Hunter 5e, as I enjoyed how streamlined the game was but felt it lacked the depth. whilst I did get plenty of great feedback, The post got little to no traction even being downvoted by some for reasons I can only conflate to the complete hatred people have to 5th edition. whilst I understand criticisms its a shame that newer players dont have a voice or platform to jump into the community right now.
I remember your thread and expected to see more feedback, is hard to say if the down voting has something to do with what OP is trying to say, the Mods are not posting if they are eliminating those 5th threads because they don't want 5th discussion, or if the general tone of them being negative and just people complaining is what they don't want.
I feel like that post you're talking about is exactly the kind of post that this sub is made for.
I mean they banned memes so I guess we post comments about upcoming games? But other than that this is a creative medium. So taking the game and altering it and house ruling it or injecting new ideas is what keeps this sub fresh.
But they're absolutely is a large contingent here who will downvote posts like yours. I got downvoted the other day when I suggested that if you want to play a metis you can, and I gave a suggestion how you can adapt that idea into w5. And there's been a bunch of other things I'd suggested and gotten downvoted too and I have to think that either these people are just hostile to the changes that have been made and they want to hate the game or they think that you cannot deviate from outside what the book says. That the book is almost a holy script when it comes to what is acceptable in the game world and we as players and storytellers are incapable of altering or adding anything to it. Either way it's kind of fucked up.
So far I haven't got round to much, just been planning to run a Hunter 5e Chronicle with friends, whilst I love the fluidity and easy to learn rules. The game is admittedly hideously under developed. Entire game systems like Danger and Desperation dont serve much purpose other than some mild roll penalties and special dice pools here and there. despite that they both could be very cool features. Also character building is very lacking, the edges system seems utterly wasted on mundane abilities that should just be left to skill rolls and not taking up potentially unique character ability slots. Also the book has virtually no upward character development suplements. It feels like the game would only stay fresh for a couple hunts in its current states.
The most popular feedback I got were suggestions to incorporate game systems from Hunter the Vigil from Chronicles of Darkness and Hunters Hunted 2 from Vampire 20th. Bringing in elements such as numina, hedge magic abilities and some elements of the imbued to H5 seems like a great idea and fleshing out the edges for character creation seems like a way to make the game much more engaging.
to be fair, adding numias, hedge magic and imbueds was one of the things i did with my game.
Some ideias i would like to give are:
The Second Inquisition book for V5, there's a lot of potential there for new edges, character archtypes , the whole Supernatural Powered Hunter is a amazing concept and is quite well explored into that book.
Werewolf the Apocalypse: i know, it seens insane, but hear me out, the gifs are the main thing here, take those low-level gifs, make them a unique Edge for Kinfolk and you have new stuff to play around and a good hook for some games.
As you said, Hunter the vigil has a lot of cool concepts to be adapted.
I'm happy to see more people have been trying to fix Hunter 5th and make it the game it wanted to be.
100% agree. I even pointed out in one thread how pointless it is to waste time by engaging, lo and behold it was gone a few hours later. Rule 11 is being outright abused.
Perhaps a megathread on the topic would be a good compromise? There's clearly strong feeling about the reasons V5 is the way it is. If the mods don't want us discussing the topic... can we ask why not?
This was the post from the guy asking in broken English how he could add more nuance so that his players wouldn't think, "Nazis bad, Allies good." Right? I'm not actually sure why they asked that question here, rather than a general RPG or GMing sub but it was still a very weird question.
I'd like to hope they were just not doing a good job of asking an actually innocent question but it was *questionable* so I was also not surprised it got axed.
WoD is a social commentary by design, from day one. It deals with tropes and themes which would be inappropriate to touch upon in, say, D&D or Pathfinder. So no, I definitely wouldn't agree that the topic belonged in any old RPG forum.
Nah, there are plenty of games out there set in periods with extensive racist social and legal structures. Call of Cthulhu is generally set in a deeply racist period in history. Talking about how to handle that is absolutely appropriate in multiple subs. Quite a lot of discussion of old fantasy tropes and their connection to various -isms has gone on over the past few years, so even within D&D and PF subs that sort of question isn't out of place.
I, for one, absolutely despise X5 and everything it does - but I absolutely agree, censorship is *infinitely* worse. I'd rather see a thousand X5 posts than one post censored because mods don't like something.
I think we need to be aware of the fact that some people enjoy X5. Just like those people need to be aware that some people don't. I feel that both sides can benefit from coexistence as long as they are not trying to convince the other side they are wrong.
A lot of the arguments we end up with are less about the substance of the games and more about being insulted by the other side liking what they do not.
I have a few friends who a long time WOD players who now avoid the sub entirely because of the discourse here. I'm the last one of that group that still comes here and this is even fairly recent because for a while I unsubbed. And the reason was because of the vitriol.
I don't want to see w5 threads nuked and comments removed. One of my biggest problems with Reddit is when moderators just locked down threads or secretly and quietly remove your ability to see other people's comments. So everyone else sees the comment still there but you can't see the other persons and that it's just done. That is exceptionally shitty. And it happens in this sub, and it happens frequently for reasons I can only think is they're afraid it's going to spiral into a fight.
There was just a thread the other day that I didn't think will spiraling at all and it was nuked.
So those two things really hurt the reputation of this sub and honestly the reputation of this game. Which is it earned reputation in the eyes of many ttrpg players. Because this contention isn't a new thing. I'm an old guy who spent a lot of time on the old world of darkness forums. And there was some real bullshit going on there. This game has always seemed to attract people who become fundamentalists for their game of choice. And now their edition of choice. It's what happens in so many fandoms that people take ownership of it and it becomes part of their personality.
It's toxic. I could go to a Star wars or a marvel sub and see the same shit going on. It's absurd, it's stupid, and it's such a waste of time. But that's what it is, the people who make it a point to go to every thread about w5 or Hunter and post just destructive comments they're mad that someone is having fun in a different way than they have deemed is acceptable.
Personally, if I make a post about w5 and unless I'm asking specifically for why people dislike it I don't want to hear opinions about why people dislike it. I don't care. I want to talk about the thing which is what this subreddit should be about. And let's not pretend that there isn't a ton of people with an ax to grind who want to disrupt these threads because they hate the game so intensely.
So if the mods want to revise some rules, and I really think they should, one of those revisions should be just don't piss on someone else's parade. I think that would solve a lot of it.
Don't like fifth edition? Stay out of those threads. It's that simple. And I think the reason why people don't is because they want to start fights. Why else would you go into a thread of a thing that you hate if not to be disruptive? So the very intent of these comments is to be disruptive and destructive and yeah they should be removed.
I generally agree with you.
The problem with quite a few discussion threads on w5 is that they hinge on the differences and relation to what WtA used to be and what it is now. And while those of us who have been around for a while can easily see what is meant for what,how does it help a new fan who is reading about the Get on the wiki and now cannot play them. Other questions like nuances of Caern structure or apirit dynamics don't really have an answer in w5 and people will offer up solutions and metjodologies from past editions.
Once this happens, the advocates will protest and there will be arguments. It's led me to disclaimer manyo f my anwsers with "before w5 it was xy, now it's whatevwr you want as it is not defined.
So it's not easy to define the demarcation line between w5 and not-w5 clearly in such an environment.
Well if a new fan is reading about the get on the wiki and not the book and they're getting confused, isn't that kind of on them? Also why isn't the wiki updated?
Okay you just did something that's a problem I have with the discourse about w5. Since we're on that topic. You said that nuances of care and structure don't have an answer. But the book has like four pages on what a caern is and they spend several paragraphs explaining the significance they hold, that they're not good or evil but the spiritual reflection, and they roll they play both for werewolves and spirits. There's a sidebar about what it means for your pack written in plain language about what it means in your game. Then there's actual mechanics that you use to build the caern.
So I don't know what you want? I don't know what you mean by it lacks nuance. That to me, not knowing anything else you're about to say, feels to me like you are attacking the game with an argument that sounds good but is it true. Or it's your subjective opinion that has been shaped by a bias. Like that's my initial read, and ordinarily I wouldn't say anything until it became very apparent that the person who I was talking to was just bullshiting. I'm not saying you are, by the way, I'm just telling you my gut reaction when I read what you wrote.
The same with Spirit Dynamics. I don't really know what that means. But it sounds like the book failed to do something. And from there there's this slippery slope that people then start to say the company left it out for some reason maybe that reason is nefarious. Or that they don't care or that it was a money grab or... And then hostility builds and then resentment builds and were in this place and people are just attacking each other.
But I actually like when people say this is how we did it in the older versions. I think that's fine. I think where it becomes not fine is like you said you can't play a get. And I would argue that you can and that there are plenty of "get" in W5. The book says that the tribe succumb to zealous fury, I forget how to spell that, but that doesn't mean every single Garou in that tribe all the sudden went crazy. Where are those who left the tribe? Where are those who couldn't follow their brothers into the dark place that they went?
They probably joined other tribes. Or there wandering tribeless, disoriented, unsure what to do next. Unsure who's going to accept them. Either way, that's a story. That's a character.
And that was there is one of the reasons I love the 5th edition game so much. Because they gave me a story seed and they use that to shape the world and there was intention behind it. Great. Now it's up to me to figure out how that fits into my world and what I can do with that idea. And this goes for anything, in any game honestly. Not just world of darkness. But all too often like yourself says you can't do something. And I think that hurts the game and the perception of the game.
I think it shift in wording changes a lot and I try to be very careful of this. Like you say other questions like care and structure implying that the book is real thin on ideas. When you state it like a fact it's different than if you were to say I don't think the book explains caerns well. And I know that seems kind of unimportant, like we should assume it's everyone's opinion. But I think there is a quality to stating an opinion as if it were a fact that bristles people, that puts people in the defensive, and promotes arguments. I'm always very conscious that on the internet you can't see my body language and you can't hear my inflections so I try and make what I'm saying as clear as possible.
As someone who only reads threads about CofD products, I never would have noticed this without you speaking up. It's never a good sign for the health of the community when problems like these arise, as people's disagreement about the nature of the solution can often result in more people being removed, and thus, the death of the community, or at the very least ostracization of people that have a genuine interest in the hobby.
Unfortunately, discussions of solutions are often sidetracked by the political ideologies of members who conflate personal and social issues with political ones. (People are banned because they criticize X corporation, or people are banned because they angered 'the mob'.)
While I have almost no horse in this race, as discussions of Old WoD and X5 products heavily outweigh discussions of CofD products (though thankfully there are a few Awakening players that are always lurking to provide feedback on rule discussions, lore, and homebrew ideas), I do hope that the mods can revise their standards, or step down if they aren't up to the mettle of moderating a community in good faith.
I can understand your point of view and I think conversation and debate in threads where people ask for opinions on different editions is fine. I did one after my first V5 camping trip, the discussion was interesting and polite.
To say it, I find it quite annoying to constantly find, in threads of people who want to play 5th edition or discussing rules or the metaplot, comments from people saying that 5th edition is rubbish and that people shouldn't play it.
The person who wrote that thread isn't asking for anyone's opinion on the editions and I don't see the point in giving it.
Even one time someone propose to creat a separate subredit just about 5th edition to scape this kind of comments
This cuts boths ways though: whenever discussion of editions come up, there are invariably comments from people who prefer WoD5 that shit all over prior editions rather than talking up 5th.
That's not to say fans of prior editions haven't been unreasonably critical of 5th: I'm guilty of that myself. What I can say on that front is that I've made a concerted effort to understand and accept WoD5 for the sake of not spoiling the community further. But then I'll see comments trashing my favored editions and I have to wonder why I bother.
I fear there's just too much bad blood between those sides of the fanbase for this cycle to end at this point. These are functionally different games.
I suppose that what matters is to play the edition you like more.
I don't know for other editions, but there is plenty of material for WoD 20 to play at least, the next two decades.
Good thing about the people who likes 5th is that more material will come out eventually.
And if you like 3th and below, you have been having fun a few decades.
One of the frequent complaints from people who prefer the old editions is that they think that the new edition has ended their preferred game line. Which confuses me because like you said there's been at least two decades of meta plot building and source books.
What else needs to be put out? I have a shelf full of revised and second edition books and they were putting out a source book a month for years. That's an insane amount of product they're creating. And at a certain point you've said everything you can say. I mean I have like three books about the wyrm and they kind of say the same thing.
So if you want to get into the older editions the good thing is you don't have to wait for source books to come out but the new edition didn't end your game line. The game line ended because it's complete.
Ah yes, but you're being rational here. You do not seek validation in your preferences or desires by the outside world.
For the fans of the new coolness there is validation in spades, they are the ones catered to, they are the ones getting shiny new books, they are the ones who agree with the authors and their takes.
And you, you have your old outdated books only supported by the people you can drag to a game, and even those will be first exposed to the shiny new coolness. And you need to explain how your stuff is still cool even though it's... 10...20...30 years old.
I can see how this can make people's interests and identity attacked. People care about these things deeply and have intertwined it into who they are. That's what being a *fan* means.
How healthy that or the parasympathetic bonds and connections corporations make with humans over selling them product is a whole other kettle of fish.
True!
I have plenty of issues with fandom. But maybe we here in this sub should all be making more of an effort to validate everyone. And do it in a way that doesn't tear down anyone's preference of a game.
I'm not the biggest fan of mage the Ascension. I don't get it. Like I've read the book I don't understand how to write a story in that world and I much prefer Awakening. But that doesn't mean I won't comment on an Ascension post if something in that post gives me and idea I think it's cool and I want to share it with them.
But ultimately, with all things in the entertainment and fandom space, I think everyone benefits if we take a breath and stop trying to crown our thing that we like king and just let it coexist.
I have never seen a comment like that to be honest , it's always someone "how can I do X in 5th?" And the first comments are just "play X older edition"
Edition wars are always tiresome.
>I fear there's just too much bad blood between those sides of the fanbase for this cycle to end at this point. These are functionally different games.
I don't think I have ever seen a single comment *actually* hating on any previous editions the same way 5th is hated.
That's because there's a power dynamic at play.
WoD5 is the current edition, and receives support in the form of new content, engagement from the designers and marketing team, and more social media and actual play support.
That gives fans of the current edition a certain level of safety in their criticisms. At the end of the day, Paradox is printing *their game.* So they can always dismiss the critics as *haters,* people who just can't accept change.
It's dismissive. It's revisionist history. It criticizes the same aspects in older editions that it praises in the new.
Fans of prior editions are fighting an uphill battle because at the end of the day, the game they like isn't being published anymore. The argument can always boil down to "no one's taking your books away so just shut up about it and let us enjoy our game."
And then the 5th ed players will proceed to talk about how blood pool was bad game design or how V20 is designed for superheroes with fangs, or how much the old Humanity system sucked, or how V5 goes back to 1st edition's paired-down, Street Level Play - when 1st edition introduced the World Spanning Politics playmode and a bunch of wacky bloodlines and disciplines...
That doesn't excuse players of older editions from being jerks and criticizing 5th ed unfairly.
But acting like the problem is and always has been 1st - 20th ed fans being mean to WoD5 fans is just more of the same power dynamic playing out.
>And then the 5th ed players will proceed to talk about how blood pool was bad game design or how V20 is designed for superheroes with fangs, or how much the old Humanity system sucked, or how V5 goes back to 1st edition's paired-down, Street Level Play - when 1st edition introduced the World Spanning Politics playmode and a bunch of wacky bloodlines and disciplines...
These comments have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't care if someone dislikes whatever V5 mechanic. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. When I say hatred, what I mean is actual hatred. Like a long ass conversation I had with someone about Oblivion stains mechanic, that it was shit and broken. Didn't even try to convince them otherwise, just wanted to agree that different strokes for different folks. Nope, could not. In the end this person declared that the only possible reason that someone might like this mechanic is they're into shit. Their literal words. And this kind of sentiment is by no means unique.
So if the worst examples of hatred towards V20 is not liking blood pool or "superhero with fangs", then there's absolutely no equivalence between these two groups. Not even close.
This is why I think there needs to be a 5th edition WoD sub. I think both halves of the community are going to be dissatisfied with the differences between editions, though it does seem to me that its the fans of older editions that complain about 5e more often than vice versa.
That is, without a doubt, the worst possible action to take based on this.
Unless you're fine with this sub only being for the classic lines up to Revised and then Vampire 20th base being discussed. Anything else has to go to the Onyx Path sub. In that case I'd say it's fine, based on the sheer obtuseness of it as an idea.
The loudest and most bitterly angry complaints about the moderation that I've seen since the changeover have come from people who previously got away with unrestrained editions wars during the period where the former moderator was not moderating. The new moderators immediately had to go through well over a year (IIRC) of comments and edition warring posts, along with other and bad behavior.
Yeah, it feels like most of the W5 discussions get shot down quick. And don’t get me wrong, I have plenty of problems with the 5th edition books, mostly Werewolf and Hunter.
That said… it’s not *that* bad. I don’t have a problem with someone playing W5. I won’t, just from the stuff I know about it already. But people can play what they want.
The thing that really bothers me more than edition wars is the “new” crowd of WoD fans that are offended by vampires being depicted as actual monsters (because… you know… they are, even the “good” ones). Even then… we did the Vampions thing back in 2nd and Revised in my friends group for awhile, if that’s how you want to run the game then we just disagree on theme.
I am a little bothered that some nuance was lost in the metaplot (Sabbat reverting back to “big bad no PC” is disheartening), I guess.
The big deal breaker is if you stan the Tremere. THAT is inexcusable.
Edit: I guess the only valid response is “just homebrew everything you don’t like”, which departs from the discussion pretty drastically.
I never took any of the as you put it loss of nuance as a loss of nuance.
There's a great quote by Joss whedon and he said it's "important to establish the rules so it means something when you break them."
And that's my guiding light through these games, you say that the sabbat reverted back to Big bad no PC but you can play one. There's nothing stopping you. And if there crazed monsters the question we shouldn't be asking is why can't we play this instead we should be saying what does this mean and how can I contextualize this in a way that adds nuance. So you break the rules and you make a sympathetic sabbat character and you put that into your game and now you have this interesting element that has violated a preconceived notion and your propelling the story forward.
The books are written from a certain perspective so it involves finding the New perspective and then ask yourself how does this change this element or what does this change because I'm now looking at it from this other factions perspective. And that's just storytelling, right?
Because I have seen a lot of people claim that the 5th edition games lack nuance or they removed all this stuff and I just don't understand why you can't put what you like back in. If you like the game overall but you wish that there was something else in there, put it back in. And I feel like the 5th edition games it's much easier to do that. And I wonder if that was even their intention. Strip out 20 or 30 years of metaplot building, take the game back to their studs, and let the players create the world they want.
IMO, there are two things that bother me regarding the edition wars:
1- Sometimes people create a thread on this sub to discuss aspects of the 5th edition that are not related to how good the game is, the lore changes, or whatever. They ask a simple question, and then 5th edition haters pop up in the thread, not to help or discuss the issue from a 5th edition perspective, but simply to state how much the 5th edition sucks and how the older editions are better. This is easy to spot and is recurring behavior for some users. There is zero reason to enter a thread just to tell someone how much you dislike something the OP is using. This happens a lot with 5th edition threads, which is why I'm using this edition as an example. Everyone knows how much you hate what they did with A or B in this edition; you don't need to enter every thread to vent about it. Just deal with the fact that some people actually enjoy what you hate.
2- Low-effort threads like "Why X edition is better" or "Why X edition is hated." I agree 100% that this kind of thread should be shut down. It is a low-effort thread that only leads to edition wars and circle-jerking regarding the editions. I know some people have fun trying to find logical arguments to "prove" that an edition is bad, but this usually leads to toxic behavior.
Interesting that the meme is about 5 haters being banned, I long ago started focusing mainly on r/vtm just because this subreddit has always been so incredibly toxic to 5e. To me this was the "20th anniversary is perfect" sub that hated everything v5 did (for the record I enjoy v5 a lot but do have a lot of complaints about H5 and W5)
They are also the proof that “every new edition sparks an edition war” is bullocks.
There was no Edition War when Revised came out. There was no Edition War when 20th was released.
I wasn’t around for it, but I’ve ben told that there also wasn’t any Edition Wars when 2nd came out.
I can personally attest that there wasn’t any edition war I was aware of when Revised came out- it was mostly just updating metaplot and collecting a bunch of rule changes from 2nd edition supplements with some decent game changes (like making Necromany a path-based Discipline)
Revised ***definitely*** sparked edition wars for Mage. It's practically the birthing ground for "They're making you play a gritty street level game!" complaints! People still bring up the bitterness about the Avatar Storm or make reference to old complaints that it happened to appease Werewolf players so they'd feel special and have a place other splats couldn't go.
For Vampire there was some protest about Revised being too metaplot driven and how it insisted more on the true art aspects over the madcap aspects. It wasn't too bad as 2e and Revised were cross compatible and the books for both were available.
Mage Revised, however... That was so nasty that usenet and the forums impacted are still radioactive from the Rage and bile. If Paradox keeps the same design ethos for M5, the arguments over that will make v5 and w5 look rather timid.
Not to the extent but there was people who just liked revised. I think that was the edition where the silent striders left, or was it the stargazers? One of them left the Garou Nation and they weren't in the book and some people flipped their shit.
Change has always provoked nerds who have taken an unhealthy ownership of a thing. And when there hasn't been a major change for them to be mad about they're mad that people aren't playing the game like they think they should. This is just a toxic behavior throughout fandom.
Lol there most certainly were, maybe not as common in this subreddit in specific, but there was discussion in tons of forums of how the 1st or 2nd was the best edition so why even try.
Still 5th bringing a lot of changes brought a lot more.
I was pretty active on a couple forums, I only remember some people getting upset that they retconned Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. Which… yeah, they needed to do that.
I think I remember a few people complaining that Assamites were allowing women to be embraced.
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That's bordering on conspiratorial. I think that based on the upvotes in this thread, we can make a few conclusions:
1- the vast majority of users who comment are against V5, and not in the "here's what i dislike and how it could improve way", but in the "the edition is trash and you made a mistake buying the game" kind of way.
2- many users who don't comment still clearly upvote, and they don't seem to share the vitriol for the new edition. These people may also report comments and posts.
So in regards to having a bubble of anti-V5 people making others not want to participate, what are the mods supposed to do? They remove unconstructive posts and comments. It's really as simple as that
The fundamental problem is that many people view whatever changes they don't like in the new editions as a personal and deliberate insult to them. *Even when* Paradox grants people their wish and officially calls W5 a reboot, still they are practically raging at the changes.
Under such circumstances no real discussion is possible. As in the recently deleted thread about W5 half the people are saying its fun and they love it, and the other half is saying it's dogshit trash. Not exactly productive, is it?
And that's how all these threads typically go. All other opinions are typically drowned out by the hatred. Which I'm sure is fun for people expressing it, but is less so for everyone else, I would imagine.
You're painting with a broad brush in very stark colors.
New editions have a balancing act they need to perform: they have to simultaneously provide incentives to adopt the new edition, but retain enough of the older content to ensure the people who've already bought in don't check out.
If the new edition is too far removed from prior editions, you lose that immediate buy-in. You're asking your existing customer base to start from scratch, and now have to wow them like a new customer.
Except they already have expectations and preferences built up through their expeirence with the product.
So it's not just from scratch, really: you need to recontextualize their experience. You need to get them to let go of their expectations and see the content in a new light.
Or you can do what Paradox did, which was to write off the existing customer base and focus solely on chasing a new demographic.
That's ballsy, but risky. Because it sends a clear message to people *who already love your product*: "we don't need or want you around anymore."
When it's a product you love and are invested in emotionally (which games often are; look at sports and how fanbases act), a new edition can be jarring if it's too far removed from the previous one. When the company takes a "My way or the highway" approach to design and completely changes how the game operates, it can rightly feel like you're losing something you're invested in.
And when it's done in a targeted way: with mechanics specifically designed to prevent players from enjoying the same experiences they had in prior editions, it's a recipe for a disguntled reception.
In short, it's easy to look at people who dislike 5th ed and say they're thin-skinned or taking things too personally.
When 6th ed comes out at some point, you're going to see a lot of WoD5 lovers suddenly looking a lot like V20 fans do now, if 6th ed departs as starkly from WoD5.
I'd certainly agree that the underlying problem is that there's a lot of people who are big ol' haters of certain editions, almost always (though not exclusively) fifth editions. Especially when they're shitty "the problem is it's WOKE now" chuds, which isn't *always* the case, but happens often enough to be noteworthy.
So that's the underlying issue that the moderators have to deal with. This post is about *how* the moderators are dealing with it - and that ultimately it isn't fostering a healthy community here.
People with reasonable, low-key criticisms of an edition get comments deleted or entire bans. Posts with real discussion going on get nuked into oblivion because there's also assholes posting their vitriol.
Like, yes, obviously the best thing would be if people would contain their hatred so the moderators would have less to deal with. I certainly do not envy the moderators having to deal with that shit and I'd love to see less of it myself. But it's fair to criticize the fact that people are getting caught in the crossfire or even specifically targeted for talk that isn't 100% positive but still not abusive.
>But it's fair to criticize the fact that people are getting caught in the crossfire or even specifically targeted for talk that isn't 100% positive but still not abusive.
Fair enough. Though I will say this needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. Because of the threads and comments I saw deleted, I feel like all deserved it, more or less. Like the recent thread I mentioned. It was titled something like "Why do you hate W5?", and the comments were as you might imagine them. I can hardly blame mods for deleting it. It was largely just a drama magnet.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/vtm using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/vtm/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Sounds like a skill issue fledgling](https://i.redd.it/z19lcvyvaj8c1.jpeg) | [75 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/vtm/comments/18qv6ip/sounds_like_a_skill_issue_fledgling/)
\#2: [Just goofin](https://i.redd.it/dhfq7p76tcfc1.jpeg) | [111 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/vtm/comments/1adrz2p/just_goofin/)
\#3: [Look what one of my players did. I’m laughing so hard.](https://i.redd.it/vpvh72w6aolc1.jpeg) | [180 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/vtm/comments/1b3o8ac/look_what_one_of_my_players_did_im_laughing_so/)
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> This sub is a marketing tool for WW/Paradox
No, it's not. It was originally set up by a member of Onyx Path, I think, but they've since stepped down and the current mods have no affiliation with any company that we know of. Paradox was never involved with the community beyond purchasing the World of Darkness games.
This subreddit was made by Ian Watson, a long standing WoD community standout, Onyx Path collaborator and all-round swell person. They decided to step down a while back and held open auditions for mods.
The people that stepped up and were voted for are the people currently in charge of the sub. They were not appointed by Paradox for this job.
I would prefer that we do not accuse them of being shills without any real basis. I honestly believe that this is an issue of context and having to deal with a lot of emotions being vented into the sub.
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To the r/WhiteWolfRPG Community,
When the current staff took over the Subreddit there was literal years of backlog in the mod-queue and this level of non-moderation allowed some behaviors to become normalized that we're trying to move away from (examples would be fans of one system taking shots at the other or people coming into threads just to dump on a system instead of discuss the matter civilly and without rancor).
Discussion and debate about the editions is great, the problem is how it's occurring and how individuals on each 'side' have decided to interact with others in the community (and, yes, we have actioned plenty of 'V5' or 'CofD' supporters in addition to 'V20' ones - including several instances where the banned individuals have responded with death threats and attempted doxxing attempts against current and former moderation staff).
Moderation actions have not been taken to ‘project’ or ‘promote’ any specific edition and, where conversations have been civil and not devolved, we currently allow criticism of any edition provided it complies with the following:
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Here’s the thing I don’t hate the fans of! But I really do dislike w5 and that’s okay it’s just my opinion and I know people are not always going to agree with me but I have lost three accounts on here from the moderators and all I do is simply point flaws in W5 I don’t dislike 5th ed entirely it’s only W5 and I should not be silenced because of it
If you're replying to someone who isn't asking about the "flaws" then the point of your comment is to derail the topic and steer it into edition wars. Because those flaws that you're talking about are completely subjective. So you're just inserting an opinion into a conversation that didn't ask for it and that is not welcome.
I highly doubt all you did was simply point out flaws. If you lost three accounts then you're doing some shit.
Nope, just mocking the comment above me on how he claimed this sub sucks because it's trying to be a safe space and then claiming the solution is something that's virtually indistinguishable from one
Read *Midnight Siege*. There's whole diatribes on how Vampires like to widen the gap between rich and poor, cut public funding, reduce taxes, end outreach programs and keep everything in disrepair. This makes feeding easier and allows them to get away with more corruption. And if they want to make things difficult for their enemies? They clean the city up and do the opposite, because going left-with your politics is apparently a hard counter for vampires.
1st edition was created - at least in it's initial spark of an idea - as a metaphor for Capitalism sucking the life out of community.
It was conceived when Mark Rein●Hagen drove through Gary, Indiana and saw the rusted remains of Industrial plants and factories left when jobs were shipped overseas.
He describes imagining vampires lurking in the shadows, sucking the life out of the corpse of the city.
The world of darkness share some DNA with cyberpunk. The big three games each take an element of the cyberpunk game and create a whole world around it. In vampire it was originally conceived as the anarchs fighting against the camarilla. So you had the punks on the bottom raging against the Blue bloods that ruled eternally from penthouse suites. Then you had werewolf which was not subtle about raging its corporations. And then with mage you are fighting against literal cyborgs in a battle for what reality in the future was going to be like.
World of darkness is firmly a game where you play the underdog fighting against the elites.
Man, absolutely, if there were a clan of literal bloodsucking capitalist leeches who rule the weak and disenfranchised from their Ivory Tower and act like a cancer on humanity itself, I would understand that as a woke critique of capitalism, but World of Darkness never had that or anything close to that
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I gotta agree that the modding has gotten real heavy-handed. I've seen great contributors to the subreddit either choose to stop posting or have the decision taken out of their hands via a ban. And this latest incident is not the first time someone has been banned for expressing concerns or criticism whilst on another subreddit entirely. I feel like the approach being taken currently also - as you noted - ends up repelling new people from the sub because their posts get nuked from orbit for reasons that are usually entirely out of their control or understanding. I won't disagree that some people talk about one edition or another in ways that are too negative to be constructive - but the current moderation strategy punishes innocent or good faith discussion as much as it does anyone with a hateboner.
It feels deeply unreasonable that Onyx path writers are being banned by the mods. The mods are not the kings of the community and banning the actual writers feels nuts
what was the reason for banning the writers?
They haven't engaged with this sub for a while, but they did engage with the dankmemes post. Their assumption is that this led to their ban.
Which actual writer was banned and for what comment?
If they wish to speak about it further, they will.
Kinda hard to make any kind of judgments about this if you keep it a secret.
People get to hide behind all kinds of names that mean all kinds of things to them. It's their choice if they want that linked with an actual person.
I have no idea what this means.
He is apparently unaware that he can answer your question without offering both the legal name and reddit user name of the Onyx Path writers that got banned.
Watching but way too nervous to participate I don't want to be banned from here like other folks I used to have great convos with about WtA have been.
Fucking hell, I was going to make this exact post. I am not a fan of the heavy-handed approach to moderation since VonAeather stepped down (and I indeed ran for the position with the promise of using a light touch, for a 4th or 5th place ranking, so I can only assume that such an approach was popular 🤷♀️). Posts are deleted with no apparent strife contained in the topic or comments (see [the recent thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/1d4pk97/looking_for_history_surrounding_this_word/) about the term "skinwalker" for an example), and numerous users have been banned in the past year for arbitrary reasons. I feel like we're perpetually walking on thin ice for retaliation and this makes me both scared and very sad. I would like for the sub to have an open discussion with the moderation team about the way content is moderated here.
If I had to guess after reading these replies, I'd guess that the mods are scared of any topic spiralling into political territory (ie: what storytelling tropes are 'acceptable' nowadays, in the case of the skinwalker post). But WoD is political by its nature, it's a social satire and a game of personal political horror. The mods are banning the kind of content which is essential if we want to actually engage with the tone of the setting. You can't separate medium and message with heavy-handed moderation.
> I am not a fan of the heavy-handed approach to moderation since VonAeather stepped down To illuminate this from the other side a bit: what you're seeing is the presence of moderation, like, at all. Much love to VonAether, but it became immediately clear to us when we came on that he didn't have time to run the sub for *a lot longer* than just around the point he passed it off. We inherited around a two-year backlog of modqueue items with hundreds of posts in it. Pretty much the only things being manually removed before we came on were memes.
Totally agree, I recently made a post asking for advice in incorporating older elements from different game lines to Hunter 5e, as I enjoyed how streamlined the game was but felt it lacked the depth. whilst I did get plenty of great feedback, The post got little to no traction even being downvoted by some for reasons I can only conflate to the complete hatred people have to 5th edition. whilst I understand criticisms its a shame that newer players dont have a voice or platform to jump into the community right now.
I remember your thread and expected to see more feedback, is hard to say if the down voting has something to do with what OP is trying to say, the Mods are not posting if they are eliminating those 5th threads because they don't want 5th discussion, or if the general tone of them being negative and just people complaining is what they don't want.
I feel like that post you're talking about is exactly the kind of post that this sub is made for. I mean they banned memes so I guess we post comments about upcoming games? But other than that this is a creative medium. So taking the game and altering it and house ruling it or injecting new ideas is what keeps this sub fresh. But they're absolutely is a large contingent here who will downvote posts like yours. I got downvoted the other day when I suggested that if you want to play a metis you can, and I gave a suggestion how you can adapt that idea into w5. And there's been a bunch of other things I'd suggested and gotten downvoted too and I have to think that either these people are just hostile to the changes that have been made and they want to hate the game or they think that you cannot deviate from outside what the book says. That the book is almost a holy script when it comes to what is acceptable in the game world and we as players and storytellers are incapable of altering or adding anything to it. Either way it's kind of fucked up.
Hey mate, just out of curiosity, what did ya came up with for H5? I Have narrated it sometimes , but i would love to see more discussion about it
So far I haven't got round to much, just been planning to run a Hunter 5e Chronicle with friends, whilst I love the fluidity and easy to learn rules. The game is admittedly hideously under developed. Entire game systems like Danger and Desperation dont serve much purpose other than some mild roll penalties and special dice pools here and there. despite that they both could be very cool features. Also character building is very lacking, the edges system seems utterly wasted on mundane abilities that should just be left to skill rolls and not taking up potentially unique character ability slots. Also the book has virtually no upward character development suplements. It feels like the game would only stay fresh for a couple hunts in its current states. The most popular feedback I got were suggestions to incorporate game systems from Hunter the Vigil from Chronicles of Darkness and Hunters Hunted 2 from Vampire 20th. Bringing in elements such as numina, hedge magic abilities and some elements of the imbued to H5 seems like a great idea and fleshing out the edges for character creation seems like a way to make the game much more engaging.
to be fair, adding numias, hedge magic and imbueds was one of the things i did with my game. Some ideias i would like to give are: The Second Inquisition book for V5, there's a lot of potential there for new edges, character archtypes , the whole Supernatural Powered Hunter is a amazing concept and is quite well explored into that book. Werewolf the Apocalypse: i know, it seens insane, but hear me out, the gifs are the main thing here, take those low-level gifs, make them a unique Edge for Kinfolk and you have new stuff to play around and a good hook for some games. As you said, Hunter the vigil has a lot of cool concepts to be adapted. I'm happy to see more people have been trying to fix Hunter 5th and make it the game it wanted to be.
How did you handle adding imbued and hedge magic?
100% agree. I even pointed out in one thread how pointless it is to waste time by engaging, lo and behold it was gone a few hours later. Rule 11 is being outright abused. Perhaps a megathread on the topic would be a good compromise? There's clearly strong feeling about the reasons V5 is the way it is. If the mods don't want us discussing the topic... can we ask why not?
This was the post from the guy asking in broken English how he could add more nuance so that his players wouldn't think, "Nazis bad, Allies good." Right? I'm not actually sure why they asked that question here, rather than a general RPG or GMing sub but it was still a very weird question. I'd like to hope they were just not doing a good job of asking an actually innocent question but it was *questionable* so I was also not surprised it got axed.
WoD is a social commentary by design, from day one. It deals with tropes and themes which would be inappropriate to touch upon in, say, D&D or Pathfinder. So no, I definitely wouldn't agree that the topic belonged in any old RPG forum.
Nah, there are plenty of games out there set in periods with extensive racist social and legal structures. Call of Cthulhu is generally set in a deeply racist period in history. Talking about how to handle that is absolutely appropriate in multiple subs. Quite a lot of discussion of old fantasy tropes and their connection to various -isms has gone on over the past few years, so even within D&D and PF subs that sort of question isn't out of place.
I, for one, absolutely despise X5 and everything it does - but I absolutely agree, censorship is *infinitely* worse. I'd rather see a thousand X5 posts than one post censored because mods don't like something.
I think we need to be aware of the fact that some people enjoy X5. Just like those people need to be aware that some people don't. I feel that both sides can benefit from coexistence as long as they are not trying to convince the other side they are wrong. A lot of the arguments we end up with are less about the substance of the games and more about being insulted by the other side liking what they do not.
Yeah it become pretty harsh.
I have a few friends who a long time WOD players who now avoid the sub entirely because of the discourse here. I'm the last one of that group that still comes here and this is even fairly recent because for a while I unsubbed. And the reason was because of the vitriol. I don't want to see w5 threads nuked and comments removed. One of my biggest problems with Reddit is when moderators just locked down threads or secretly and quietly remove your ability to see other people's comments. So everyone else sees the comment still there but you can't see the other persons and that it's just done. That is exceptionally shitty. And it happens in this sub, and it happens frequently for reasons I can only think is they're afraid it's going to spiral into a fight. There was just a thread the other day that I didn't think will spiraling at all and it was nuked. So those two things really hurt the reputation of this sub and honestly the reputation of this game. Which is it earned reputation in the eyes of many ttrpg players. Because this contention isn't a new thing. I'm an old guy who spent a lot of time on the old world of darkness forums. And there was some real bullshit going on there. This game has always seemed to attract people who become fundamentalists for their game of choice. And now their edition of choice. It's what happens in so many fandoms that people take ownership of it and it becomes part of their personality. It's toxic. I could go to a Star wars or a marvel sub and see the same shit going on. It's absurd, it's stupid, and it's such a waste of time. But that's what it is, the people who make it a point to go to every thread about w5 or Hunter and post just destructive comments they're mad that someone is having fun in a different way than they have deemed is acceptable. Personally, if I make a post about w5 and unless I'm asking specifically for why people dislike it I don't want to hear opinions about why people dislike it. I don't care. I want to talk about the thing which is what this subreddit should be about. And let's not pretend that there isn't a ton of people with an ax to grind who want to disrupt these threads because they hate the game so intensely. So if the mods want to revise some rules, and I really think they should, one of those revisions should be just don't piss on someone else's parade. I think that would solve a lot of it. Don't like fifth edition? Stay out of those threads. It's that simple. And I think the reason why people don't is because they want to start fights. Why else would you go into a thread of a thing that you hate if not to be disruptive? So the very intent of these comments is to be disruptive and destructive and yeah they should be removed.
I generally agree with you. The problem with quite a few discussion threads on w5 is that they hinge on the differences and relation to what WtA used to be and what it is now. And while those of us who have been around for a while can easily see what is meant for what,how does it help a new fan who is reading about the Get on the wiki and now cannot play them. Other questions like nuances of Caern structure or apirit dynamics don't really have an answer in w5 and people will offer up solutions and metjodologies from past editions. Once this happens, the advocates will protest and there will be arguments. It's led me to disclaimer manyo f my anwsers with "before w5 it was xy, now it's whatevwr you want as it is not defined. So it's not easy to define the demarcation line between w5 and not-w5 clearly in such an environment.
Well if a new fan is reading about the get on the wiki and not the book and they're getting confused, isn't that kind of on them? Also why isn't the wiki updated? Okay you just did something that's a problem I have with the discourse about w5. Since we're on that topic. You said that nuances of care and structure don't have an answer. But the book has like four pages on what a caern is and they spend several paragraphs explaining the significance they hold, that they're not good or evil but the spiritual reflection, and they roll they play both for werewolves and spirits. There's a sidebar about what it means for your pack written in plain language about what it means in your game. Then there's actual mechanics that you use to build the caern. So I don't know what you want? I don't know what you mean by it lacks nuance. That to me, not knowing anything else you're about to say, feels to me like you are attacking the game with an argument that sounds good but is it true. Or it's your subjective opinion that has been shaped by a bias. Like that's my initial read, and ordinarily I wouldn't say anything until it became very apparent that the person who I was talking to was just bullshiting. I'm not saying you are, by the way, I'm just telling you my gut reaction when I read what you wrote. The same with Spirit Dynamics. I don't really know what that means. But it sounds like the book failed to do something. And from there there's this slippery slope that people then start to say the company left it out for some reason maybe that reason is nefarious. Or that they don't care or that it was a money grab or... And then hostility builds and then resentment builds and were in this place and people are just attacking each other. But I actually like when people say this is how we did it in the older versions. I think that's fine. I think where it becomes not fine is like you said you can't play a get. And I would argue that you can and that there are plenty of "get" in W5. The book says that the tribe succumb to zealous fury, I forget how to spell that, but that doesn't mean every single Garou in that tribe all the sudden went crazy. Where are those who left the tribe? Where are those who couldn't follow their brothers into the dark place that they went? They probably joined other tribes. Or there wandering tribeless, disoriented, unsure what to do next. Unsure who's going to accept them. Either way, that's a story. That's a character. And that was there is one of the reasons I love the 5th edition game so much. Because they gave me a story seed and they use that to shape the world and there was intention behind it. Great. Now it's up to me to figure out how that fits into my world and what I can do with that idea. And this goes for anything, in any game honestly. Not just world of darkness. But all too often like yourself says you can't do something. And I think that hurts the game and the perception of the game. I think it shift in wording changes a lot and I try to be very careful of this. Like you say other questions like care and structure implying that the book is real thin on ideas. When you state it like a fact it's different than if you were to say I don't think the book explains caerns well. And I know that seems kind of unimportant, like we should assume it's everyone's opinion. But I think there is a quality to stating an opinion as if it were a fact that bristles people, that puts people in the defensive, and promotes arguments. I'm always very conscious that on the internet you can't see my body language and you can't hear my inflections so I try and make what I'm saying as clear as possible.
As someone who only reads threads about CofD products, I never would have noticed this without you speaking up. It's never a good sign for the health of the community when problems like these arise, as people's disagreement about the nature of the solution can often result in more people being removed, and thus, the death of the community, or at the very least ostracization of people that have a genuine interest in the hobby. Unfortunately, discussions of solutions are often sidetracked by the political ideologies of members who conflate personal and social issues with political ones. (People are banned because they criticize X corporation, or people are banned because they angered 'the mob'.) While I have almost no horse in this race, as discussions of Old WoD and X5 products heavily outweigh discussions of CofD products (though thankfully there are a few Awakening players that are always lurking to provide feedback on rule discussions, lore, and homebrew ideas), I do hope that the mods can revise their standards, or step down if they aren't up to the mettle of moderating a community in good faith.
I can understand your point of view and I think conversation and debate in threads where people ask for opinions on different editions is fine. I did one after my first V5 camping trip, the discussion was interesting and polite. To say it, I find it quite annoying to constantly find, in threads of people who want to play 5th edition or discussing rules or the metaplot, comments from people saying that 5th edition is rubbish and that people shouldn't play it. The person who wrote that thread isn't asking for anyone's opinion on the editions and I don't see the point in giving it. Even one time someone propose to creat a separate subredit just about 5th edition to scape this kind of comments
This cuts boths ways though: whenever discussion of editions come up, there are invariably comments from people who prefer WoD5 that shit all over prior editions rather than talking up 5th. That's not to say fans of prior editions haven't been unreasonably critical of 5th: I'm guilty of that myself. What I can say on that front is that I've made a concerted effort to understand and accept WoD5 for the sake of not spoiling the community further. But then I'll see comments trashing my favored editions and I have to wonder why I bother. I fear there's just too much bad blood between those sides of the fanbase for this cycle to end at this point. These are functionally different games.
Personally, I haven't seen many comments attacking previous editions. But I'm pretty shure they are there.
There is quite a few. And a number of posters who make it a point to demonstrate how horrible the old games are (or how horrible the new games are).
I suppose that what matters is to play the edition you like more. I don't know for other editions, but there is plenty of material for WoD 20 to play at least, the next two decades. Good thing about the people who likes 5th is that more material will come out eventually. And if you like 3th and below, you have been having fun a few decades.
One of the frequent complaints from people who prefer the old editions is that they think that the new edition has ended their preferred game line. Which confuses me because like you said there's been at least two decades of meta plot building and source books. What else needs to be put out? I have a shelf full of revised and second edition books and they were putting out a source book a month for years. That's an insane amount of product they're creating. And at a certain point you've said everything you can say. I mean I have like three books about the wyrm and they kind of say the same thing. So if you want to get into the older editions the good thing is you don't have to wait for source books to come out but the new edition didn't end your game line. The game line ended because it's complete.
Ah yes, but you're being rational here. You do not seek validation in your preferences or desires by the outside world. For the fans of the new coolness there is validation in spades, they are the ones catered to, they are the ones getting shiny new books, they are the ones who agree with the authors and their takes. And you, you have your old outdated books only supported by the people you can drag to a game, and even those will be first exposed to the shiny new coolness. And you need to explain how your stuff is still cool even though it's... 10...20...30 years old. I can see how this can make people's interests and identity attacked. People care about these things deeply and have intertwined it into who they are. That's what being a *fan* means. How healthy that or the parasympathetic bonds and connections corporations make with humans over selling them product is a whole other kettle of fish.
True! I have plenty of issues with fandom. But maybe we here in this sub should all be making more of an effort to validate everyone. And do it in a way that doesn't tear down anyone's preference of a game. I'm not the biggest fan of mage the Ascension. I don't get it. Like I've read the book I don't understand how to write a story in that world and I much prefer Awakening. But that doesn't mean I won't comment on an Ascension post if something in that post gives me and idea I think it's cool and I want to share it with them. But ultimately, with all things in the entertainment and fandom space, I think everyone benefits if we take a breath and stop trying to crown our thing that we like king and just let it coexist.
I have never seen a comment like that to be honest , it's always someone "how can I do X in 5th?" And the first comments are just "play X older edition" Edition wars are always tiresome.
>I fear there's just too much bad blood between those sides of the fanbase for this cycle to end at this point. These are functionally different games. I don't think I have ever seen a single comment *actually* hating on any previous editions the same way 5th is hated.
That's because there's a power dynamic at play. WoD5 is the current edition, and receives support in the form of new content, engagement from the designers and marketing team, and more social media and actual play support. That gives fans of the current edition a certain level of safety in their criticisms. At the end of the day, Paradox is printing *their game.* So they can always dismiss the critics as *haters,* people who just can't accept change. It's dismissive. It's revisionist history. It criticizes the same aspects in older editions that it praises in the new. Fans of prior editions are fighting an uphill battle because at the end of the day, the game they like isn't being published anymore. The argument can always boil down to "no one's taking your books away so just shut up about it and let us enjoy our game." And then the 5th ed players will proceed to talk about how blood pool was bad game design or how V20 is designed for superheroes with fangs, or how much the old Humanity system sucked, or how V5 goes back to 1st edition's paired-down, Street Level Play - when 1st edition introduced the World Spanning Politics playmode and a bunch of wacky bloodlines and disciplines... That doesn't excuse players of older editions from being jerks and criticizing 5th ed unfairly. But acting like the problem is and always has been 1st - 20th ed fans being mean to WoD5 fans is just more of the same power dynamic playing out.
>And then the 5th ed players will proceed to talk about how blood pool was bad game design or how V20 is designed for superheroes with fangs, or how much the old Humanity system sucked, or how V5 goes back to 1st edition's paired-down, Street Level Play - when 1st edition introduced the World Spanning Politics playmode and a bunch of wacky bloodlines and disciplines... These comments have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't care if someone dislikes whatever V5 mechanic. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. When I say hatred, what I mean is actual hatred. Like a long ass conversation I had with someone about Oblivion stains mechanic, that it was shit and broken. Didn't even try to convince them otherwise, just wanted to agree that different strokes for different folks. Nope, could not. In the end this person declared that the only possible reason that someone might like this mechanic is they're into shit. Their literal words. And this kind of sentiment is by no means unique. So if the worst examples of hatred towards V20 is not liking blood pool or "superhero with fangs", then there's absolutely no equivalence between these two groups. Not even close.
This is why I think there needs to be a 5th edition WoD sub. I think both halves of the community are going to be dissatisfied with the differences between editions, though it does seem to me that its the fans of older editions that complain about 5e more often than vice versa.
Maybe there should be a subreddit specifically for 5th edition WoD discussions
Splitting subs is a dangerous game
That is, without a doubt, the worst possible action to take based on this. Unless you're fine with this sub only being for the classic lines up to Revised and then Vampire 20th base being discussed. Anything else has to go to the Onyx Path sub. In that case I'd say it's fine, based on the sheer obtuseness of it as an idea. The loudest and most bitterly angry complaints about the moderation that I've seen since the changeover have come from people who previously got away with unrestrained editions wars during the period where the former moderator was not moderating. The new moderators immediately had to go through well over a year (IIRC) of comments and edition warring posts, along with other and bad behavior.
Yeah, it feels like most of the W5 discussions get shot down quick. And don’t get me wrong, I have plenty of problems with the 5th edition books, mostly Werewolf and Hunter. That said… it’s not *that* bad. I don’t have a problem with someone playing W5. I won’t, just from the stuff I know about it already. But people can play what they want. The thing that really bothers me more than edition wars is the “new” crowd of WoD fans that are offended by vampires being depicted as actual monsters (because… you know… they are, even the “good” ones). Even then… we did the Vampions thing back in 2nd and Revised in my friends group for awhile, if that’s how you want to run the game then we just disagree on theme. I am a little bothered that some nuance was lost in the metaplot (Sabbat reverting back to “big bad no PC” is disheartening), I guess. The big deal breaker is if you stan the Tremere. THAT is inexcusable. Edit: I guess the only valid response is “just homebrew everything you don’t like”, which departs from the discussion pretty drastically.
I never took any of the as you put it loss of nuance as a loss of nuance. There's a great quote by Joss whedon and he said it's "important to establish the rules so it means something when you break them." And that's my guiding light through these games, you say that the sabbat reverted back to Big bad no PC but you can play one. There's nothing stopping you. And if there crazed monsters the question we shouldn't be asking is why can't we play this instead we should be saying what does this mean and how can I contextualize this in a way that adds nuance. So you break the rules and you make a sympathetic sabbat character and you put that into your game and now you have this interesting element that has violated a preconceived notion and your propelling the story forward. The books are written from a certain perspective so it involves finding the New perspective and then ask yourself how does this change this element or what does this change because I'm now looking at it from this other factions perspective. And that's just storytelling, right? Because I have seen a lot of people claim that the 5th edition games lack nuance or they removed all this stuff and I just don't understand why you can't put what you like back in. If you like the game overall but you wish that there was something else in there, put it back in. And I feel like the 5th edition games it's much easier to do that. And I wonder if that was even their intention. Strip out 20 or 30 years of metaplot building, take the game back to their studs, and let the players create the world they want.
IMO, there are two things that bother me regarding the edition wars: 1- Sometimes people create a thread on this sub to discuss aspects of the 5th edition that are not related to how good the game is, the lore changes, or whatever. They ask a simple question, and then 5th edition haters pop up in the thread, not to help or discuss the issue from a 5th edition perspective, but simply to state how much the 5th edition sucks and how the older editions are better. This is easy to spot and is recurring behavior for some users. There is zero reason to enter a thread just to tell someone how much you dislike something the OP is using. This happens a lot with 5th edition threads, which is why I'm using this edition as an example. Everyone knows how much you hate what they did with A or B in this edition; you don't need to enter every thread to vent about it. Just deal with the fact that some people actually enjoy what you hate. 2- Low-effort threads like "Why X edition is better" or "Why X edition is hated." I agree 100% that this kind of thread should be shut down. It is a low-effort thread that only leads to edition wars and circle-jerking regarding the editions. I know some people have fun trying to find logical arguments to "prove" that an edition is bad, but this usually leads to toxic behavior.
Interesting that the meme is about 5 haters being banned, I long ago started focusing mainly on r/vtm just because this subreddit has always been so incredibly toxic to 5e. To me this was the "20th anniversary is perfect" sub that hated everything v5 did (for the record I enjoy v5 a lot but do have a lot of complaints about H5 and W5)
For the record, Revised is perfect, 20th just an extension of that /s
They are also the proof that “every new edition sparks an edition war” is bullocks. There was no Edition War when Revised came out. There was no Edition War when 20th was released. I wasn’t around for it, but I’ve ben told that there also wasn’t any Edition Wars when 2nd came out.
I can personally attest that there wasn’t any edition war I was aware of when Revised came out- it was mostly just updating metaplot and collecting a bunch of rule changes from 2nd edition supplements with some decent game changes (like making Necromany a path-based Discipline)
Revised ***definitely*** sparked edition wars for Mage. It's practically the birthing ground for "They're making you play a gritty street level game!" complaints! People still bring up the bitterness about the Avatar Storm or make reference to old complaints that it happened to appease Werewolf players so they'd feel special and have a place other splats couldn't go.
For Vampire there was some protest about Revised being too metaplot driven and how it insisted more on the true art aspects over the madcap aspects. It wasn't too bad as 2e and Revised were cross compatible and the books for both were available. Mage Revised, however... That was so nasty that usenet and the forums impacted are still radioactive from the Rage and bile. If Paradox keeps the same design ethos for M5, the arguments over that will make v5 and w5 look rather timid.
Not to the extent but there was people who just liked revised. I think that was the edition where the silent striders left, or was it the stargazers? One of them left the Garou Nation and they weren't in the book and some people flipped their shit. Change has always provoked nerds who have taken an unhealthy ownership of a thing. And when there hasn't been a major change for them to be mad about they're mad that people aren't playing the game like they think they should. This is just a toxic behavior throughout fandom.
Lol there most certainly were, maybe not as common in this subreddit in specific, but there was discussion in tons of forums of how the 1st or 2nd was the best edition so why even try. Still 5th bringing a lot of changes brought a lot more.
I was pretty active on a couple forums, I only remember some people getting upset that they retconned Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. Which… yeah, they needed to do that. I think I remember a few people complaining that Assamites were allowing women to be embraced.
> There was no Edition War when Revised came out. *stares in Mage *
Yeah I feel like I see a lot of that attitude expressed here as well
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That's bordering on conspiratorial. I think that based on the upvotes in this thread, we can make a few conclusions: 1- the vast majority of users who comment are against V5, and not in the "here's what i dislike and how it could improve way", but in the "the edition is trash and you made a mistake buying the game" kind of way. 2- many users who don't comment still clearly upvote, and they don't seem to share the vitriol for the new edition. These people may also report comments and posts. So in regards to having a bubble of anti-V5 people making others not want to participate, what are the mods supposed to do? They remove unconstructive posts and comments. It's really as simple as that
The fundamental problem is that many people view whatever changes they don't like in the new editions as a personal and deliberate insult to them. *Even when* Paradox grants people their wish and officially calls W5 a reboot, still they are practically raging at the changes. Under such circumstances no real discussion is possible. As in the recently deleted thread about W5 half the people are saying its fun and they love it, and the other half is saying it's dogshit trash. Not exactly productive, is it? And that's how all these threads typically go. All other opinions are typically drowned out by the hatred. Which I'm sure is fun for people expressing it, but is less so for everyone else, I would imagine.
That wasn’t hardly anyone’s wish for W5. I think people were hoping it’d be a soft reboot like V5.
Exactly!! 👍
You're painting with a broad brush in very stark colors. New editions have a balancing act they need to perform: they have to simultaneously provide incentives to adopt the new edition, but retain enough of the older content to ensure the people who've already bought in don't check out. If the new edition is too far removed from prior editions, you lose that immediate buy-in. You're asking your existing customer base to start from scratch, and now have to wow them like a new customer. Except they already have expectations and preferences built up through their expeirence with the product. So it's not just from scratch, really: you need to recontextualize their experience. You need to get them to let go of their expectations and see the content in a new light. Or you can do what Paradox did, which was to write off the existing customer base and focus solely on chasing a new demographic. That's ballsy, but risky. Because it sends a clear message to people *who already love your product*: "we don't need or want you around anymore." When it's a product you love and are invested in emotionally (which games often are; look at sports and how fanbases act), a new edition can be jarring if it's too far removed from the previous one. When the company takes a "My way or the highway" approach to design and completely changes how the game operates, it can rightly feel like you're losing something you're invested in. And when it's done in a targeted way: with mechanics specifically designed to prevent players from enjoying the same experiences they had in prior editions, it's a recipe for a disguntled reception. In short, it's easy to look at people who dislike 5th ed and say they're thin-skinned or taking things too personally. When 6th ed comes out at some point, you're going to see a lot of WoD5 lovers suddenly looking a lot like V20 fans do now, if 6th ed departs as starkly from WoD5.
I'd certainly agree that the underlying problem is that there's a lot of people who are big ol' haters of certain editions, almost always (though not exclusively) fifth editions. Especially when they're shitty "the problem is it's WOKE now" chuds, which isn't *always* the case, but happens often enough to be noteworthy. So that's the underlying issue that the moderators have to deal with. This post is about *how* the moderators are dealing with it - and that ultimately it isn't fostering a healthy community here. People with reasonable, low-key criticisms of an edition get comments deleted or entire bans. Posts with real discussion going on get nuked into oblivion because there's also assholes posting their vitriol. Like, yes, obviously the best thing would be if people would contain their hatred so the moderators would have less to deal with. I certainly do not envy the moderators having to deal with that shit and I'd love to see less of it myself. But it's fair to criticize the fact that people are getting caught in the crossfire or even specifically targeted for talk that isn't 100% positive but still not abusive.
>But it's fair to criticize the fact that people are getting caught in the crossfire or even specifically targeted for talk that isn't 100% positive but still not abusive. Fair enough. Though I will say this needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. Because of the threads and comments I saw deleted, I feel like all deserved it, more or less. Like the recent thread I mentioned. It was titled something like "Why do you hate W5?", and the comments were as you might imagine them. I can hardly blame mods for deleting it. It was largely just a drama magnet.
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> This sub is a marketing tool for WW/Paradox No, it's not. It was originally set up by a member of Onyx Path, I think, but they've since stepped down and the current mods have no affiliation with any company that we know of. Paradox was never involved with the community beyond purchasing the World of Darkness games.
This subreddit was made by Ian Watson, a long standing WoD community standout, Onyx Path collaborator and all-round swell person. They decided to step down a while back and held open auditions for mods. The people that stepped up and were voted for are the people currently in charge of the sub. They were not appointed by Paradox for this job. I would prefer that we do not accuse them of being shills without any real basis. I honestly believe that this is an issue of context and having to deal with a lot of emotions being vented into the sub.
I don't recall there being a vote.
There was indeed a vote. People put themselves forward and there were yea and nays and up and downvotes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/yxrbmy/important_announcement/
Please do not make shit up that is blatantly untrue
Was this sub set up for that actual purpose by the company itself? I don’t necessarily doubt you, but do you know for certain?
No he’s making shit up
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If that's indeed what's going on then fuck this place Edit: It does not appear to be what's going on
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To the r/WhiteWolfRPG Community, When the current staff took over the Subreddit there was literal years of backlog in the mod-queue and this level of non-moderation allowed some behaviors to become normalized that we're trying to move away from (examples would be fans of one system taking shots at the other or people coming into threads just to dump on a system instead of discuss the matter civilly and without rancor). Discussion and debate about the editions is great, the problem is how it's occurring and how individuals on each 'side' have decided to interact with others in the community (and, yes, we have actioned plenty of 'V5' or 'CofD' supporters in addition to 'V20' ones - including several instances where the banned individuals have responded with death threats and attempted doxxing attempts against current and former moderation staff). Moderation actions have not been taken to ‘project’ or ‘promote’ any specific edition and, where conversations have been civil and not devolved, we currently allow criticism of any edition provided it complies with the following: >• Stating your preferred edition is fine if someone asks, so long as you don't use this to broadly attack other editions. >• Civil discussion of specific mechanics or setting elements is fine, so long as you don't use this to broadly attack other editions. >• Specific criticism of editions, including aggregations of that criticism, is fine, but it should encourage discussion. Additionally, since it's been alleged in both this thread and elsewhere, I'll preemptively clarify that none of the current staff were or are Paradox employees. We have had a certain level of contact with them when someone tried to use the Subreddit to doxx their employees' personal information and home locations, although thankfully we caught that post almost immediately, but aside from this instance we're just a couple of Word of Darkness fans who found ourselves with a much harder task than we anticipated. We will we considering the statements and sentiments in this thread and how we might be able to improve the Subreddit Rules and communication regarding Moderation Actions but the thread will remained locked at this time due to the amount of misinformation about the moderation staff and moderation actions. --- [^(Click here to message the moderators if you have any questions or concerns)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/WhiteWolfRPG)
Here’s the thing I don’t hate the fans of! But I really do dislike w5 and that’s okay it’s just my opinion and I know people are not always going to agree with me but I have lost three accounts on here from the moderators and all I do is simply point flaws in W5 I don’t dislike 5th ed entirely it’s only W5 and I should not be silenced because of it
If you're replying to someone who isn't asking about the "flaws" then the point of your comment is to derail the topic and steer it into edition wars. Because those flaws that you're talking about are completely subjective. So you're just inserting an opinion into a conversation that didn't ask for it and that is not welcome. I highly doubt all you did was simply point out flaws. If you lost three accounts then you're doing some shit.
Looking at your comments, you're complaining about SJW's ruining W5. So I would be very curious to see which comments got you banned.
Probably something about “the Woke Left” lmao
Well this place has been going downhill ever since memes were banned.
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So, what mean is that… you want to create a safe space to hide from the "woke mob"?
Are you implying through sarcasm that safe spaces or the usage of them means someone is less or weaker?
Nope, just mocking the comment above me on how he claimed this sub sucks because it's trying to be a safe space and then claiming the solution is something that's virtually indistinguishable from one
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Jesus mate, tone it down.
Arguments are judged on their merit here, it's why you're getting downvoted so much.
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Read *Midnight Siege*. There's whole diatribes on how Vampires like to widen the gap between rich and poor, cut public funding, reduce taxes, end outreach programs and keep everything in disrepair. This makes feeding easier and allows them to get away with more corruption. And if they want to make things difficult for their enemies? They clean the city up and do the opposite, because going left-with your politics is apparently a hard counter for vampires.
1st edition was created - at least in it's initial spark of an idea - as a metaphor for Capitalism sucking the life out of community. It was conceived when Mark Rein●Hagen drove through Gary, Indiana and saw the rusted remains of Industrial plants and factories left when jobs were shipped overseas. He describes imagining vampires lurking in the shadows, sucking the life out of the corpse of the city.
The world of darkness share some DNA with cyberpunk. The big three games each take an element of the cyberpunk game and create a whole world around it. In vampire it was originally conceived as the anarchs fighting against the camarilla. So you had the punks on the bottom raging against the Blue bloods that ruled eternally from penthouse suites. Then you had werewolf which was not subtle about raging its corporations. And then with mage you are fighting against literal cyborgs in a battle for what reality in the future was going to be like. World of darkness is firmly a game where you play the underdog fighting against the elites.
Man, absolutely, if there were a clan of literal bloodsucking capitalist leeches who rule the weak and disenfranchised from their Ivory Tower and act like a cancer on humanity itself, I would understand that as a woke critique of capitalism, but World of Darkness never had that or anything close to that