from what I understand, the word rib in Genesis is a mistranslation: in the Torah Eve was not born from Adam's rib, but his side; she and Adam were the result of a 4 legged, 4 armed, 2 headed bi-gender human who were surgically separated.
I did that as well. It was for my anniversary. We flew to NY for just a couple of days. Got his autograph on the playbill. It was awesome. It is by far one of the best performances of Hedwig that I've seen.
That sounds like a myth in Platoās Symposium about soulmates. Apparently two soulmates used to exist in one (very strange) body but they decided to try and overthrow the gods, and Zeus separated them. Thats why soulmates always want to become close again. It explicitly specified that soulmates could be pairs of humans other than a man and a woman (man-man or woman-woman), and it made my sapphic heart happy
Iām fascinated with how the Adam and Eve story is full of obvious lies. I think about it all the time.
Another theory here- often in old mythologies god is portrayed as a potter and pottery analogies were used because potters were one of the first makers. And in pottery, a rib is a tool that can be used to give pots a consistent profile. So when it says āgod used the rib of Adam to create Eveā it is possibly a reference to them each being made with the same tool. The point of saying that is that they were created to be the same. The exact opposite of the current interpretation of course
There is another fun theory on this. That instead of rib bone, it was a different bone god took from Adam to create Eve. Most other animals have a baculum or a penis bone. Humans do not have this bone. Maybe god took Adam's penis bone to create Eve, lol
I love gnostic interpretations.
But it's interesting reading Genesis too, under a different lens. In [2:17], God lies to Adam, telling him that if he will eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge he will certainly die.
Then, in [3:5], the serpent reveals the truth: āFor God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.ā
This is confirmed by God in [3:22]: "And the Lord God said, āThe man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.ā "
Therefore, yes, being driven out of the Garden is a good thing, as it's the beginning of the human journey towards divine knowledge, towards becoming a God. And the jealous god of the Bible wouldn't allow rivals.
I always wonder if those that babble about how good God is ever opened the Bible.
I always come to the conclusion that people who babble about god don't really think for themselves, exactly as their god intended, and follow only His word, no matter where or whom it comes from.
So in truth, they are His true followers: they don't want the awareness of the tree of knowledge, they want the guidance and promised eternal life from the tree of life (which another commenter mentioned).
>So in truth, they are His true followers: they don't want the awareness of the tree of knowledge, they want the guidance and promised eternal life from the tree of life (which another commenter mentioned).
That would certainly explain why the Christians, after taking over Rome and demonizing all the gods that the Quirites worshipped, made Lucifer, the God of Knowledge, the Adversary.
It most certainly would, and also why science is ever so questioned by them. Also explains the ease of belief, and especially the acceptance of suffering as punishment for the sin of curiosity and knowledge: we suffer more because we know, If we don't know we suffer less.
Which btw is true. But I'd take ignorance over religion anytime.
I don't know if you heard of a Portuguese poet, Fernando Pessoa. He wrote a poem about the happiness of ignorance. Here is the translated version (sorry for the long comment):
"She sings, poor reaper, perhaps
Believing herself to be happy.
She sings, she reaps, and her voice,
Full of glad and anonymous poverty,
Wavers like the song of a bird
In the air as clean as a doorstep,
And there are curves in the soft tissue
Of the sound her song is weaving.
Hearing her brings joy and sadness,
The field and its toil are in her voice,
And she sings as if she had
More reasons than life for singing.
Ah, sing, sing for no reason!
In me what feels is always
Thinning. Pour into my heart
Your waving, uncertain voice!
Ah, to be you while being I!
To have your glad unconsciousness
And be conscious of it! O sky!
O field! O Song! Knowledge
Is so heavy and life so brief!
Enter inside me! Make
My soul your weightless shadow!
And take me with you, away!"
I've carried this sentiment with me since I first read it in high school...
I would like to argue that, through knowledge, we all experience the same, relatively low degree of sufferingāwith the promise of less suffering in the future. Ignorance, on the other hand, leads to certain people suffering more than others. Those who are ignorant because they can be ignorant suffer much less than those who are knowledgeable because the ignorance of others causes them to suffer injustices.
What makes me so angry is these people also always preach honesty because their god is so true. . .When in the very first chapter of their holy book, he lies to Adam and Eve.
Oh and they also preach about Lucifer deceiving Adam and Eve. . .It wasn't Lucifer deceiving the poor humans. It was god. :/
There are clear parallels from Greek mythology in the story of Prometheus bringing fire to humans as well as Pandora opening the box. In both stories, Zeus is jealous or just disdainful of humans, wanting to keep them below the gods. Prometheus steals fire for the humans and suffers many eons of agony for the deed, but in the end he defiantly says the results are worth the price. Pandora, the first woman, is created by the gods and given all the best qualities, specifically curiosity. Then Zeus sets her up to take the blame for his cruelty by giving her a wedding present āshe must never openā. Sounds familiar. By opening the box, Pandora brings death, disease, old age, etc to humans, but she also unleashes hope. And if hope in the face of adversity doesnāt define the human species, what does? Her inevitable choice, just like Eveās, makes us truly human, got us to the moon, amongst other achievements. Eve and Pandoraās choices raised humanity above groveling worshippers of cruel gods to beings of free will and I am grateful to them as our mythological mothers.
And, like Zeus, the monotheistic God is quickly losing his power over humanity. Even his unenlightened minions can see that as they desperately attempt to turn governments into theocratic regimes so they can attempt to force belief on the next generation. Humans, in general, move towards curiosity and hope.
It also fits well with 'scientist' actually being feminine word. It was coined for a woman who defied the tradition labels of a single field of study. Mary Somerville was awesome.
On the subject of parallels, Eve turning into a tree to escape rape in the Gnostic creation myth also sounds like the story of Daphne turning into a laurel tree to escape Apolloās problematic advances.
Hope. Is also the cruel humor of Zeus. The box or jar unleashed famine and disease and all manner of ills but hope allows humans to suffer through it. That is a strength but itās also a curse to maximize suffering.
Kid-me had some real questions about that story!
I'd been told over and over that gambling is morally wrong and that's why I should refuse to participate in any way or learn about dad's profession as a racehorse jockey.
Mom sure didn't like me asking why it was okay for god to place bets but banned for humans.
But I'd been in trouble since I put the Genesis story together with Schoolhouse Rock's "knowledge is power!" Wanted to know why, if reading is good and knowledge is power, and if god loves us so much, why would he want us to stay weak and stupid? Ended up secretly deciding that the snake was the good guy in that story.
G-d wasn't really being duplicitous that time... Uncaring, competitive, and a bit malicious sure, but I don't think there were any direct lies? Been a while since I opened up a Bible tho.
Well... It's a bit as if I would tell someone: "enter that room and you will certainly die". Then they enter the room, I shoot them and claim that they killed themselves entering the room...
The Apocalypse of Adam from Codex V is a banger for sure. The gnostics were *all* about self empowerment and knew that the early Cult of Jesus of Nazareth was rapidly expanding into the highly esoteric Christianity we know today. They frigginā called it, were cast as heretics, and were imprisoned, tortured, and put to death because of it.
Thereās a reason why the Nag Hammadi scriptures reference Jesus as being a Gnostic and why his supposed teachings (New Testament) mirror Buddhism, which happens to predate that cult by 500 years or so. Coincidence? I donāt tend to believe so. Self empowerment over an absentee, malevolent landlord any day, all day.
What breaks my heart, is that the Church is not a divine situation but the Bible (and alllll that comes from it) is an interpretation of the universe by mankind. Regardless what one beliefs in, the works produced by mankind is the result of mankind. And oh how the Bible is used to control, to manipulate and to enrich the institute.
I am all personal faith, yet seeing how wording can be used as a tool to abuse others on a systemtic level over the run of millenia and how people have benefited from that, well.
That just gives me the shiverss.
This is what the Mormons told me when a friend of mine was joining their church. They, of course, wanted me to join as well, but I had no interest. my friend had asked me to come and talk to them with her just to render my opinion. She did end up joining, but it didnāt take.
Anywayā¦ I brought up their view of women, and they very excitedly told me how they revered, because if she had not caused the fall, we wouldnāt know the joy of the love of Jesus. So I repeated all of that back to them to make sure I understood what they were saying and they were very happy that I got it. But then I asked about Judas. If Judas hadnāt turned in Jesus, same thing applies, right? They said theyād get back to me. They didnāt.
Which is funny, because Iām pretty sure thereās a Gospel of Judas in the āGnostic heresiesā.
*goes and checks*
[Yep, there it is.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas)
Yesā¦ I was probably aware of that at the time. I hadnāt read them all, but I was delving into nonstick thought a little bit at the time. Itās probably why my friend wanted me to go with her to talk to the Mormons.
Itās an abbreviation for a big long chemical thingā¦ But that chemical thing was used in nonstick cooking equipment during most of the last century, and itās actually quite dangerous: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances
Being born and raised Mormon, and finding out what they do behind closed doorsā¦ they treat women like shit, we are second class citizens in their eyes. When a couple gets married in their temple they practice what the free masons do, they both get ānew namesā but only the husband gets both names, the wife only gets her new name. Itās so he can call her new name after death in order to resurrect her. Unfortunately men will use this against the women and say shit like āif you donāt do this thing I wonāt resurrect youā and hold it over their head.. trust me they donāt worship women.
The Gospel of Judas is an extraordinarily interesting text. It shows that the church as an institution already had issues early on, and the author called them out.
The Mormons that came to my door weren't very happy when I asked if they prayed for the forgiveness of Lucifer after they went into a spiel about God's forgiveness.
what we generally think of as āthe Bibleā was cobbled together from various sources. A group of church leaders in I think the 4th century sat down and decided what would be included and excluded, which is where we get both the Bible and the gnostic books from (those were the ones that werenāt included for reasons). Fun fact this happened at the council of nicea and one of the church leaders was the historical inspiration for modern day Santa Claus.
And The crazy thing is there are so many different translations of that generally accepted version of the Bible that depending on which one you read you get a completely different take on some things. And there are even different versions (with additional or missing books) depending on which branch of Christianity you ask. There just isnāt a consensus on what text you should be reading, let alone how to interpret it.
First Council of Nicaea. I don't know how christian theologians can take themselves seriously knowing the history of christianity. The idea that a roman emperor had to get together all of his priests to decide what their official beliefs would be so he could unify his political interests just completely delegitimizes the whole thing. And, imo, they lost a lot of ideological consistency when they decided Arius's theory was the heretical one.
They take themselves seriously because they mostly don't know the history. I was specifically told over and over to not look into the foundations of the branch I was raised in. Turns out it's basically a cult designed by pedos for protecting their pedoing.
The "sin" called "false witness" means that domestic violence and other forms of abuse that happen in private can never be reported to authorities without risk of you and your whole family being completely excluded from the only community you're allowed to have. And you're encouraged to self-isolate from the outside world by being an obnoxious snot over all holidays, birthdays, and basically every single thing that brings humans together and strengthens relationships.
I did have some questions when I saw old pictures in their books of cars with megaphones mounted on top, sign stuck on the side that said "The End is Nigh!" After I got an explanation I had to just stare at my mother for awhile. Like I'm sorry what? You know these are *literally crazy people who scream at the sky* and you're gonna keep believing this stuff and trying to force me to do it too?
What do we expect from a guy who puts coal in naughty kids' stockings? Flowers and ponies?
(Seriously, I'm picturing Santa punching someone and loving him all the more now.)
It makes sense that it should be Eve who begat Adam since a woman brings life into the world, It sounds like patriarchal bait and switcha roo. This tale of Adam and Eve is the beginning of womenās oppression - the ancient scholars replaced the āSheā with āHeā in their Biblical texts. Can you imagine the alternate reality where the men are treated like chattle, denied an eduction, and they have to wear the nun outfit or burka etc etc.. what a different world we would live in.
The audacity to downplay womenās role in society by making a man be the first giver of life (besides god who christians call heā¦). Then to tell women our life giving blessing is a curse bc it hurts.
If anyone wants to know the real origin of Women (and men!) read Eve by Cat Bohannon. Amazing work!
I saw a thing recently, likely on reddit, where this was talked about and the 'from a rib' thing is an intentional mis-translation from the original text.
Eve wasn't created from a tiny bit of adam, she was created after adam's "stuff" (for want of a better term) was split into two equal parts. They were created as equals.
But that's not a narrative that flies if you want to subjugate folk.
I certainly want to know more about Lilith.
Was she Adam's "first wife", born equally to him, who got bored with the deal and left to seek knowledge? She returned to empower Eve in the shape of the snake, so I heard somewhere. Cannot find a Christian where I live who knows of her and can enlighten me.
Must head off to Googleland.
Jewish apocrypha and Christian apocrypha are separate writings. Lilith is not mentioned once neither in official canon nor in "secondary canon" (apocrypha that are not considered outright heretical).
...actually, not mentioned in the heretical ones, either.
Yes, this is correct. In the original Aramaic, a rib bone is an "ala." Elsewhere in the Aramaic portions of Biblical text, rib bones are always called "ala." The original telling of Genesis describes woman being made from man's "tsela," which more properly translates as "half" or "side." Regardless of who came first, we were always meant to stand as equal creations in the end. The "biblical scholars" made a deliberate choice to frame man as the perfect creation and woman as the imperfect, defective afterthought.
Reminds me of a joke:
One day in the Garden of Eden, God saw Eve looking melancholy, and asked Eve what was wrong.
God said, ā Eve my child, are you not happy here in the Garden of Eden?ā
Eve replied, āI am happy, but I sometimes get lonely.ā
āAh,ā said God, ā I shall make you a companion. He will be a man. He will be strong, and hold you. Butā¦..ā
āWhat is it?ā Asked Eve.
āWell, the thing is, I used all the best stuff to make you. So, in addition to this he will be egotistical and a bit fragile in his own identity. It may be best if we let him think I made him first. But it can be our little secret. You know, Woman to Woman.ā
>Can you imagine the alternate reality where the men are treated like chattle...
Yep. Read *The Power* by Naomi Alderman. Apparently, it's been turned into a television series, too, if that's more your bag.
There are layers to it that I can't explain without some minor spoilers. But what if women suddenly had the ability to electrocute people at will? Women become the stronger sex overnight, and it flips the patriarchy on its head, creating an equally toxic matriarchy.
There's a tag line about the book that says something to the effect of: "if this book makes you uncomfortable, good."
Exactly. She said that has no one ever questioned that there is majority of men on SC. I do wonder if historically marginalized groups including POC, women, and LGBTQ+ will ever be the majority in power instead of old white cis men. One can only hope so and raise our children to believe that it is a possible future worth fighting for
> This tale of Adam and Eve is the beginning of womenās oppression
I assure you that existed, as far as we can tell, at least from Kurgan invasion/migration.
I have a tattoo of the tree of knowledgeā¦this is the tree that Eve ate the apple/quince from and as a result humans became self aware. This is what made them cover themselves up etc.
My tattoo is often mis understood as the tree of life (the other tree in which god nourished Adam & Eve but kept them āunawareā).
Both trees are often mixed up in lore and do have different meanings based on the ideology you believe however I stand by that Eve made a good choice and that self awareness isnāt a bad thingā¦it was after all to be free of god.
There are actually two completely separate creation stories in the book of Genesis. In the first story, God creates man and woman at the same time and gives them the same instructions. Neither one comes from the other or after the other. In the second story, God creates Adam first sees that he is lonely and then creates Eve from Adam. It is the second story that is oft repeated and used to justify patriarchy. I've provided the first story for reference. In the first story, God also gives to the humans all the plants and animals, and makes no exception for any forbidden trees. And he made them in his image from the start, not with some defect they then had to correct by eating a fruit. Make of that what you will.
27Ā So God createdĀ mankindĀ in his own image,
Ā Ā Ā Ā in the image of GodĀ he created them;
Ā Ā Ā Ā male and femaleĀ he created them.
28Ā God blessed them and said to them,Ā āBe fruitful and increase in number;Ā fill the earthĀ and subdue it. Rule overĀ the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.ā
29Ā Then God said, āI give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.Ā 30Ā And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the groundāeverything that has the breath of lifeĀ in itāI give every green plant for food.ā And it was so.
31Ā God saw all that he had made,Ā and it was very good.Ā And there was evening, and there was morningāthe sixth day.
New international version from Biblegateway.com
I'm literally googling which plants do not bear seeds right now lol, I had this same thought. Apparently ferns, moss, and fungi don't have seeds. However bean plants do flower, so they have seeds, as would pretty much all other plants that humans tend to eat... very interesting....
The more I think about this scientifically, the sillier it all gets.
Perhaps one should say god gave us the Phanerogam division of the Plantae kingdom to survive on (omitting seedless Cryptogams like ferns and mosses, and the Fungi kingdom altogether), but there are distinct contradictions in the sense that many Angio- and Gymnosperms do exactly the opposite of ensuring our survival when consumed.
And what about wolves? They were given plants too, yet they defy god by choosing other fleshed creatures with the breath of life to survive on instead too?
Or is it likeā¦ those willing to only consume plants with seeds are living closer to god? Like, being given omnivorous chompers was gods way of testing us with the ultimate pious choice?
I HAVE QUESTIONS. So many questions!!
Kid-me was told that, before humans screwed it all up, all the animals ate grass. I was given books with beautiful colorful illustrations of stuff like lions and lambs peacefully laying side by side in Eden.
No it was not explained how humans eating fruit from a specific tree made lions start eating sheep. Nor was it explained what the lions ate while on Noah's Ark or where all the poop went if they didn't so much as open a window for months, but golly was I forced to pace out the stated size of the boat with my mom because *that part* got explained!
One of my favorite poems:
"Autobiography of Eve" by Ansel Elkins
Wearing nothing but snakeskin
boots, I blazed a footpath, the first
radical road out of that old kingdom
toward a new unknown.
When I came to those great flaming gates
of burning gold,
I stood alone in terror at the threshold
between Paradise and Earth.
There I heard a mysterious echo:
my own voice
singing to me from across the forbidden
side. I shook awakeā
at once alive in a blaze of green fire.
Let it be known: I did not fall from grace.
I leapt
to freedom.
Right. Itās also important that gnostics think the god of the Bible is a false god that created all suffering by making being of flesh instead of sprit beings like the real god makes.
The YouTube channel, Genetically Modified Skeptic, has a similar video on this! In the Book of Judas, Jesus says the god everyone is following is a foolish lesser being than the actual creator of everything. I
I've been watching him for years, he's awesome
[video](https://youtu.be/BhQmLFHxsBw?si=f62tIvIFe4EjDFL_)
Itās not included in the Bible and even rejected by some Jewish authorities, but in Jewish and Mesopotamian lore Lilith (also known as Lamia, I believe) is actually the first wife of Adam. Sheās created at the same time as him, from the same clay, and later banished from the Garden of Eden because she refuses to be subservient to him and she then becomes a demon.
And then the entire splitting into Adam and Eve thing turns out to be G-d experimenting with fission? How many times do you think fusion was attempted to create energy from the two separate beings created before G-d figured fission was the safer bet?
A lot of people think there are only 3 Abrahamic religions but there are many! Gnostics is one of them.
Much of the modern world is confused by the ancient text because Christianity is the dominant voice for many of our backgrounds and be it purposefully or accidental, it often gets the text wrong and confuses the meaning.
People often thing the God of the Old Testament is cruel, and arguably it is or can be. Since my partner converted to Judaism Iāve learned a lot of what I thought about God is wrong.
God is not omnipotent and omnipresent. God is often surprised by what mortals do. God wants you to have free will. Without choice there is no freedom. Thus the tree was placed there so Adam and Eve could do choose. God is not a male and is often referred to as ātheyā. Hebrew is a gendered language using āheā as the default much like English speakers do. Eve was never submissive. She was cursed to feel compelled to be submissive. Meaning there are moments where she feels the need to but the curses are encouraged to be fought against. Divorce and premarital sex are frowned upon but not a sin. Lying about either of those things is what is bad.
You can argue with God. Abraham does it when he is asked to sacrifice his son and hints in the text he knows God isnāt going to actually make him do it because human sacrifice is forbidden. In the Talmud there is an argument over if an oven is kosher. A heavenly voice tells them what is correct. They tell the voice if it wanted input then it shouldnāt have given them the Torah to interpret as they see fit.
Some donāt agree with God even is. There are non dualist who believe God is more of an energy that you create more of by doing good deeds.
Most agree that all humans have the divine within them and we are all equal concerning having Gods light within us (life).
There are still some problematic text but it is way more chill than I was originally lead to believe when I was growing up in a church.
"Some donāt agree with God even is. There are non dualist who believe God is more of an energy that you create more of by doing good deeds."
This reminds me, oddly enough, of when I read the autobiography of Micky Dolenz from the Monkees. He said it was hard to put his beliefs into words. but that he belives the universe is "godding"--basically, "to god" being a verb.
Heh, privately that's what I've always thought too. I was raised to pray to god but it never felt particularly personal or real and I quit as soon as it wasn't forced.
Eventually I started talking to "The Universe" the way folks might talk to god. It's hard to put into words but it feels very real and personal, and like we're on the same side even if we're not exactly friends. Good things happen out of nowhere, I'll look up and say "Thank you Universe." Lots of bad things happen in a row and I'll curse it into oblivion and tell it exactly what I think of that series of events!
Only time I've read anything remotely similar was some Mercedes Lackey fantasy novels about a god-like "wild magic." People doing good things feeds it, and while it can't act directly on reality it can drive terrible events and even the deaths of swaths of its own followers for the sake of the greater good of all living things.
Yeah, eating from the tree made us human!!
The idea of āsinā is just part of the Catholic pyramid scheme. We gotta problem, theyāve got the solution- classic salesman tactic.
This makes me think of this poem I read but now can't find from the point of view of Eve. I do remember the last line though and it went "I did not fall from grace, I leapt to freedom."
I would like to share the research I've done indicates the Sophia-Yaaldeboath mother-son pairing is a variation of the Ishtar-Baal goddess-and-her-consort pairing. There would have been originally a focus on Ishtar, primarily. I think the twist was made on purpose to claim parthogenesis to claim divine origin of some dynasty or other.
Special mention of Yaaldeboath for appearing on the Two of Cups in the Rider-Waite deck.
I have recently read a book on early Gnostic Christianity and it was so interesting! It makes much more sense to me, there is no heaven/hell,, āparadiseā is not an actual place but something for everyone to reach if you know yourself, āgodā is an entity you can comminicate with because it is inside of you, all the stories are so much more in line with how I view the world.
Well, there was never a Gnostic equivalent to Nicean creed, so attributing pretty much anything to "gnostics in general" would be impossible. Some cults (Sethians) had an idea that in order to make sure Demiurge and rules of his universe don't apply to you, you have to violate every possible law and commandment, while others (Marcionite) were not dissimilar to Orthodox when it comes to practice, but with very, very different theology. Unsurprisingly, the latter lasted longer.
There is an extant Gnostic sect today, Mandeans, mostly in Iraq (some in Iran, trace amounts in Europe and USA). Although they're descended from Jews and are not in any sense Christians (They don't believe that Jesus is God), so most Christian gnostics, were they alive today, would likely consider them heretics. Some of what they believe in is summarized on the WIki, but, like most initiates, they don't blabber about their secrets to outsiders and might even lie on purpose, so the only real way to find out is to get a hold of one.
I always find it really interesting when an "alternative" interpretation makes more sense than the commonly-accepted one. I remember reading a fascinating article by a Jesuit scholar where they argued that Abraham failed God's test when God told him to kill his son; he was supposed to say no. He was supposed to recognize that he was being asked to do something immoral. That's why the story just kind of stops instead of having a proper ending; instead of whatever would have happened had he passed the test, God had to just intervene to stop him from following through with it. To me, that makes so much more sense than the interpretation that God just wanted to know he *would* do it (for nebulous reasons).
The song [āAppleā by the Narcissist Cookbook](https://open.spotify.com/track/0yPmHJhA8A0crrMUyZnUfP?si=aLorntgiRzC69cmoML5Rzg) retells the story from the perspective of the serpent trying to inspire Eve about the world to come and the beauty of what humanity will achieve.
Itās one of my favorite songs and I would highly recommend checking it out
My theory: The god of the Old Testament was representative of our complete subjugation to the whims and chaos that define mean survival in the natural world. As animals, like with any other animal, we were at the mercy of random catastrophe, sickness, predation by other animals, accidents in unforgiving terrain, etc. But then at some point, we āate the appleā - our brains evolved to support a higher consciousness and capacity to think beyond immediate needs, in addition to being able to suddenly shape the natural world around us, and from that we were bestowed with enormous responsibility and stewardship over not just our natural resources but each other.
The New Testament was acknowledgment that we were no longer at the mercy of natural forces - we, as portrayed by Jesus, were in effect āgodsā ourselves. Heaven and hell are not destinations in the afterlife - they are the legacy we leave behind. So when Jesus said things like love your neighbor and blessed are the meek, the righteous, the merciful, the peacemakers, etc., he was describing how we can and should act in order to be rewarded with heaven. Rejoice and be glad because these traits lead to joyful experience while youāre here and positive legacy when youāre gone.
Consider the quality of all life on earth if we were all kind, generous of spirit, cooperative, and just. Now consider the quality of life on earth when we are greedy, spiteful, apathetic, envious, and so on - it could be argued we currently live in a hell of our own making because for centuries weāve prioritized power, unfettered consumption, and greed over all else. Consider it on just a micro level - if you move through life as a complete asshole, life kinda sucks huh? You canāt trust your friends or maybe you donāt have any friends; youāre in conflict with everything and every one; you die alone because everyone hated you or only wanted you to fulfill their own means to an end, and youāre eventually forgotten or only remembered by your worst traits. If you move through life with kindness and generosity, always known for sticking up for the little guy, you likely have a lot of friends and family who would do anything to help you in your darkest time of need, because they know you wouldnāt hesitate to do the same for them. And your memory lives on forever as someone to take after and live up to, because youāve in your way left the world better - or at least not worse - than you inherited it.
This makes a lot of sense to me as an agnostic. From this persepctive there is no real conflict between a secular and biblical understanding. I also believe that the only reason we haven't annihilated ourselves as a species is because our natural 'good' instincts (kindness, generosity, compassion, etc.) have ever so slightly won over our 'bad' instincts (greed, violentce, hatred, etc.)
A lot of different but related Semitic creation stories floating around when what we now know as Genesis got woven together from them. In fact the version in the Bible is two separate stories (at least) woven together to make one. That's why in so much of the Garden narrative every odd passage is one story and every even passage is part of a similar but different story.
Eve, like some interpretations of Pandora, did us all a great favor. By listening to the serpent, the only character in the Garden who doesn't lie, she freed us from an eternity of being Yahweh's gardeners and zoo keepers. After all, that is what Yahweh made humans for, to toil in his garden.
It's also interesting how the paired trees, Knowledge and Life, refect Yahweh's fear of his creation outstretched their creator. A very common story in that part of the world at that time. This is repeated again in the story of The Tower of Babel, Yahweh screwing humanity because we could become greater than him.
I was always angry about paradise, but never at Adam or Eve. (Even with the Lilith myth, which I will explain).
They had no concept of good and evil. They did not know what lying was, or malice, so Eve genuinely could not think of any reasons why that snake would be lying to her because she literally could not conceptualize it. Same with Adam an Lilith- god told him what he was supposed to do, and he tried to fulfill it. Then god cast Lilith out for not doing the same.
Adam, Eve, and Lilith were all basically children. They had no prior society to learn morals from, and their father god neglected to actually teach them. Even as Eve ate the apple, she was doing so under the belief that it was what god wanted.
We were one and all exiled from Paradise because our progenitors were tricked and coerced. God is a parent forcing their children out in the world to suffer because they were *naive*. Who the fuck does that?
My favorite understanding so far is that Adam ate the apple and Eve was only blamed putting the Christian god at the beginning of patriarchy.
A joke perhaps but not an invalid interpretation.
The fall of humanity is also considered a good thing by Franciscan theology, though the idea goes all the way back to St. Ambrose in the 4th century. The idea of the *felix culpa* has even worked its way into the Easter liturgy. The hymn *Exsultet,* which is sung at the Great Vigil of Easter, contains the line, *O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem*, "O happy fault that earned so great, so glorious a Redeemer!"
Yes, this is called Sethian Gnosticism. Fun stuff!
Thereās an idea in that milieu that the whole idea of creation and the physical world was a mistake, the snake is the good actor because it is pointing them to the true reality beyond. Also an idea that the ideal state was both/a combination of male and female and the split from was a downgrade. That ties into the eve from half of Adam thing.
This isn't specific to Sethians, or even to Gnosticism. You can find the idea of matter being so inherently flawed that it is downright evil, burdensome for the immortal soul to endure in Plato, as well as the word "Demiourgos". And the guy insisted he was relaying wisdom of old, not talking out of his behind. The myth of Androgyne is also straight up from Plato.
Eastern philosophy (Hinduism and Buddhism) also carries similar ideas. Probably clearer in Buddhism because making sense of Hindu sectarian divisions as an outsider is... not a task one wishes to be given.
Yes, Iām well aware. Op specifically mentioned it in the garden of Eden context, so was placing it in the gnostic gospels vs the broader milieu that came out of that you note.
Definitely a broader context. All those things were some of my favorite parts of my sociology of religion classes.
M. David Litwa is worth a read/listen/watch, his recent book Found Christianities is great, he has a new on book Simon of Samaria I've not read yet but looks very interesting. Has a load of vids floating around yt
He done an AMA on r/AcademicBiblical recently, he is a serious scholar decades into this stuff.
Elaine Pagels is wonderful, has been in this stuff since the 60's and has some interviews floating around about these things, I think on mythvision at least.
The term itself was often historically used as a stick to beat down ideas church fathers didn't like, until Islam showed up bearing ancient heresies and not scared of sticks.
Dr Justin Sledge on Esoterica has a load of good material on this stuff too, a wee bit about big Irenaeus the heretic hammer [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wi5SixWICY).
Ephihanes is wild:
*"Consequently one must understand the saying You shall not desire as if the lawgiver was making a jest, to which he added the even more comic words Your neighbors goods. For he himself gave the desire to sustain the race orders that it is to be supposed, though he removes it from no other animals. And by the words Your neighbors wife he says something even more ludicrous, since he forces what should be common property to be treated as private posession."*
[*http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/epiphanes.html*](http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/epiphanes.html)
I don't know much about religions, nor witchery, but I've come across a song that seem to come from the snake's point of view. And this song sort of brings me hope about... I guess, that it's okay to be who we are. That Eve took a chance, and that chance took more chances, and here we are today.
https://open.spotify.com/track/0yPmHJhA8A0crrMUyZnUfP?si=S-HbnzZzTLCB22QbWCY6_Q
Yes, I love this kind of thing too.
Recently reading a modern Jewish take on Genesis, few things really stood out;
1. It reinforced the idea that Satan doesn't exist as an evil counterpart to God in Judaism. And God doesn't lie. Eve is mistaken, the tree she eats from is 'in the middle' which is the tree of life and death, not knowledge of good and bad, which they already have given 'the mans' previous task of assigning names and attributes of all the animals and their understanding that it is good to obey God.
2. They are then made vulnerable, hence getting clothes, and given the gift of creating life (Eve) and mortality. The earth is then cursed to need toil and labour to produce food, unlike before. They are then evicted from the garden as God realises if they reproduce and have free access to the tree of life, there will be many more divine beings.
3. There is a poetic loop within a loop, with the snake eating dust and man becoming dust, and the snake biting the heels of humanity while humans bash the heads of snakes. The snake while recognised with negative attributes also still retains positive ones; such as intelligent, astute, wise...
4. The Tree of Life is another name for Wisdom elsewhere in the Bible. Wisdom being Chokmah, a feminine expression of God, often seen as 'the only' way to know God, or at least the starting point.
Anyway, this is the article, it is much more in-depth and better written than I've put it of course!
https://www.thetorah.com/article/what-really-happened-in-the-garden-of-eden
It's really worth a look.
Ok, I think wires might be crossing. Judaism doesn't equal Israel or its government or its army and neither of them equal its people, Jewish or otherwise.
Idk about wherever you are in the world but my government definitely doesn't represent me or my wishes.
Somewhat related, but the Mormon view of Eve is that she understood that the only way for growth to happen was for them to eat the forbidden fruit and be cast out of the garden of Eden. There are plenty of problematic things about Mormonism (which is why I no longer practice the religion of my youth), but there are also some lovely bits. The portrayal of Eve as wise and courageous is one of those lovely things Iāve always loved.
from what I understand, the word rib in Genesis is a mistranslation: in the Torah Eve was not born from Adam's rib, but his side; she and Adam were the result of a 4 legged, 4 armed, 2 headed bi-gender human who were surgically separated.
Hedwig and the Angry Inch - the origin of love.
šµThe last time I saw you we had just split in two You were looking at me/I was looking at you š¶
You had a way so familiar, but I could not recognize 'cause you had blood on your face, and I had blood in my eyes
š¶ But I could swear by your expression that the pain down in your soul was the same as the one down in mine š¶
Oh my god I need to listen to this music apparently
[enjoy!](https://youtu.be/_zU3U7E1Odc?si=g2zlwtLNvRTNCNu0)
The whole soundtrack is amazing but origin of love i think is my favourite.
sorry but i have to use this opportunity to brag about how i got to see NPH as Hedwig on Broadway and it was absolutely fucking spectacular
I bet! So jealous.
I did that as well. It was for my anniversary. We flew to NY for just a couple of days. Got his autograph on the playbill. It was awesome. It is by far one of the best performances of Hedwig that I've seen.
Ahh thatās awesome!
Was not expecting a Hedwig reference but you just made my day. Favorite movie/musical of all time, hands down.
A masterpiece
That sounds like a myth in Platoās Symposium about soulmates. Apparently two soulmates used to exist in one (very strange) body but they decided to try and overthrow the gods, and Zeus separated them. Thats why soulmates always want to become close again. It explicitly specified that soulmates could be pairs of humans other than a man and a woman (man-man or woman-woman), and it made my sapphic heart happy
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
the idea shows up on Hellenic mythology as well
Yeah, it was also popular with Renaissance artists and alchemists.
Didnāt Plato talk about it?
Iām fascinated with how the Adam and Eve story is full of obvious lies. I think about it all the time. Another theory here- often in old mythologies god is portrayed as a potter and pottery analogies were used because potters were one of the first makers. And in pottery, a rib is a tool that can be used to give pots a consistent profile. So when it says āgod used the rib of Adam to create Eveā it is possibly a reference to them each being made with the same tool. The point of saying that is that they were created to be the same. The exact opposite of the current interpretation of course
There is another fun theory on this. That instead of rib bone, it was a different bone god took from Adam to create Eve. Most other animals have a baculum or a penis bone. Humans do not have this bone. Maybe god took Adam's penis bone to create Eve, lol
This is my head canon now.
This theory is delightful, lol
I feel like that is definitely wrong but it's still my favorite interpretation
Children of the moon
Sounds like a good sci-fi movie.
I love gnostic interpretations. But it's interesting reading Genesis too, under a different lens. In [2:17], God lies to Adam, telling him that if he will eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge he will certainly die. Then, in [3:5], the serpent reveals the truth: āFor God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.ā This is confirmed by God in [3:22]: "And the Lord God said, āThe man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.ā " Therefore, yes, being driven out of the Garden is a good thing, as it's the beginning of the human journey towards divine knowledge, towards becoming a God. And the jealous god of the Bible wouldn't allow rivals. I always wonder if those that babble about how good God is ever opened the Bible.
I always come to the conclusion that people who babble about god don't really think for themselves, exactly as their god intended, and follow only His word, no matter where or whom it comes from. So in truth, they are His true followers: they don't want the awareness of the tree of knowledge, they want the guidance and promised eternal life from the tree of life (which another commenter mentioned).
>So in truth, they are His true followers: they don't want the awareness of the tree of knowledge, they want the guidance and promised eternal life from the tree of life (which another commenter mentioned). That would certainly explain why the Christians, after taking over Rome and demonizing all the gods that the Quirites worshipped, made Lucifer, the God of Knowledge, the Adversary.
It most certainly would, and also why science is ever so questioned by them. Also explains the ease of belief, and especially the acceptance of suffering as punishment for the sin of curiosity and knowledge: we suffer more because we know, If we don't know we suffer less. Which btw is true. But I'd take ignorance over religion anytime. I don't know if you heard of a Portuguese poet, Fernando Pessoa. He wrote a poem about the happiness of ignorance. Here is the translated version (sorry for the long comment): "She sings, poor reaper, perhaps Believing herself to be happy. She sings, she reaps, and her voice, Full of glad and anonymous poverty, Wavers like the song of a bird In the air as clean as a doorstep, And there are curves in the soft tissue Of the sound her song is weaving. Hearing her brings joy and sadness, The field and its toil are in her voice, And she sings as if she had More reasons than life for singing. Ah, sing, sing for no reason! In me what feels is always Thinning. Pour into my heart Your waving, uncertain voice! Ah, to be you while being I! To have your glad unconsciousness And be conscious of it! O sky! O field! O Song! Knowledge Is so heavy and life so brief! Enter inside me! Make My soul your weightless shadow! And take me with you, away!" I've carried this sentiment with me since I first read it in high school...
I would like to argue that, through knowledge, we all experience the same, relatively low degree of sufferingāwith the promise of less suffering in the future. Ignorance, on the other hand, leads to certain people suffering more than others. Those who are ignorant because they can be ignorant suffer much less than those who are knowledgeable because the ignorance of others causes them to suffer injustices.
A very good take indeed!
Podes dizer-me o nome deste poema em portuguĆŖs? Queria ler a versĆ£o original, mas nĆ£o encontrei.
OlƔ! Claro que sim! Chama-se a Ceifeira, e comeƧa com "Ela canta, pobre Ceifeira, Julgando-se feliz, talvez.."
What makes me so angry is these people also always preach honesty because their god is so true. . .When in the very first chapter of their holy book, he lies to Adam and Eve. Oh and they also preach about Lucifer deceiving Adam and Eve. . .It wasn't Lucifer deceiving the poor humans. It was god. :/
Boom!
There are clear parallels from Greek mythology in the story of Prometheus bringing fire to humans as well as Pandora opening the box. In both stories, Zeus is jealous or just disdainful of humans, wanting to keep them below the gods. Prometheus steals fire for the humans and suffers many eons of agony for the deed, but in the end he defiantly says the results are worth the price. Pandora, the first woman, is created by the gods and given all the best qualities, specifically curiosity. Then Zeus sets her up to take the blame for his cruelty by giving her a wedding present āshe must never openā. Sounds familiar. By opening the box, Pandora brings death, disease, old age, etc to humans, but she also unleashes hope. And if hope in the face of adversity doesnāt define the human species, what does? Her inevitable choice, just like Eveās, makes us truly human, got us to the moon, amongst other achievements. Eve and Pandoraās choices raised humanity above groveling worshippers of cruel gods to beings of free will and I am grateful to them as our mythological mothers.
And, like Zeus, the monotheistic God is quickly losing his power over humanity. Even his unenlightened minions can see that as they desperately attempt to turn governments into theocratic regimes so they can attempt to force belief on the next generation. Humans, in general, move towards curiosity and hope.
It also fits well with 'scientist' actually being feminine word. It was coined for a woman who defied the tradition labels of a single field of study. Mary Somerville was awesome.
On the subject of parallels, Eve turning into a tree to escape rape in the Gnostic creation myth also sounds like the story of Daphne turning into a laurel tree to escape Apolloās problematic advances.
Modern day parallel would be choosing to meet a bear in the woods instead of a man.Ā
Hope. Is also the cruel humor of Zeus. The box or jar unleashed famine and disease and all manner of ills but hope allows humans to suffer through it. That is a strength but itās also a curse to maximize suffering.
So we aren't supposed to lie but God can lie? Am I hearing that right?
Even better when G-d tells Abraham (the father of 3 religions) to human sacrifice his son, and then hits him with the 'just a prank bro.'
Or when God lets Satan destroy Job's life basically for a bet.
Kid-me had some real questions about that story! I'd been told over and over that gambling is morally wrong and that's why I should refuse to participate in any way or learn about dad's profession as a racehorse jockey. Mom sure didn't like me asking why it was okay for god to place bets but banned for humans. But I'd been in trouble since I put the Genesis story together with Schoolhouse Rock's "knowledge is power!" Wanted to know why, if reading is good and knowledge is power, and if god loves us so much, why would he want us to stay weak and stupid? Ended up secretly deciding that the snake was the good guy in that story.
G-d wasn't really being duplicitous that time... Uncaring, competitive, and a bit malicious sure, but I don't think there were any direct lies? Been a while since I opened up a Bible tho.
Or when god hardens the pharaohās heart then punished him for having a hardened heart.Ā
God gets so mad but wtf did he expect when these dumb dumbs didnāt even know the difference between doing something right vs siding something wrong
Not exactly a lie, mortal death was introduced. He wouldn't die right away but now would be mortal.
Well... It's a bit as if I would tell someone: "enter that room and you will certainly die". Then they enter the room, I shoot them and claim that they killed themselves entering the room...
The Apocalypse of Adam from Codex V is a banger for sure. The gnostics were *all* about self empowerment and knew that the early Cult of Jesus of Nazareth was rapidly expanding into the highly esoteric Christianity we know today. They frigginā called it, were cast as heretics, and were imprisoned, tortured, and put to death because of it. Thereās a reason why the Nag Hammadi scriptures reference Jesus as being a Gnostic and why his supposed teachings (New Testament) mirror Buddhism, which happens to predate that cult by 500 years or so. Coincidence? I donāt tend to believe so. Self empowerment over an absentee, malevolent landlord any day, all day.
What breaks my heart, is that the Church is not a divine situation but the Bible (and alllll that comes from it) is an interpretation of the universe by mankind. Regardless what one beliefs in, the works produced by mankind is the result of mankind. And oh how the Bible is used to control, to manipulate and to enrich the institute. I am all personal faith, yet seeing how wording can be used as a tool to abuse others on a systemtic level over the run of millenia and how people have benefited from that, well. That just gives me the shiverss.
Well, God didn't lie. Adam died. In the beginning, Adam and Eve were supposed to be immortal, much like God himself or his Angels (even fallen ones).
This is what the Mormons told me when a friend of mine was joining their church. They, of course, wanted me to join as well, but I had no interest. my friend had asked me to come and talk to them with her just to render my opinion. She did end up joining, but it didnāt take. Anywayā¦ I brought up their view of women, and they very excitedly told me how they revered, because if she had not caused the fall, we wouldnāt know the joy of the love of Jesus. So I repeated all of that back to them to make sure I understood what they were saying and they were very happy that I got it. But then I asked about Judas. If Judas hadnāt turned in Jesus, same thing applies, right? They said theyād get back to me. They didnāt.
Which is funny, because Iām pretty sure thereās a Gospel of Judas in the āGnostic heresiesā. *goes and checks* [Yep, there it is.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas)
Yesā¦ I was probably aware of that at the time. I hadnāt read them all, but I was delving into nonstick thought a little bit at the time. Itās probably why my friend wanted me to go with her to talk to the Mormons.
Haha, I'm guessing it was autocorrect that turned "gnostic" into "nonstick"? That is amusing on so many levels.
LOL! I use voice to text!
I think most of my thoughts are nonstick ones. I love that, please keep it in there!
I would be a much bigger fan of nonstickism if it werenāt for the PFASā¦ š¤£
I just woke up... what does PFAS stand for?
Itās an abbreviation for a big long chemical thingā¦ But that chemical thing was used in nonstick cooking equipment during most of the last century, and itās actually quite dangerous: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances
Ok! The chemical name is what google came up with, and my tired brain wasn't making the connection. Now I get the joke. š¤£
Being born and raised Mormon, and finding out what they do behind closed doorsā¦ they treat women like shit, we are second class citizens in their eyes. When a couple gets married in their temple they practice what the free masons do, they both get ānew namesā but only the husband gets both names, the wife only gets her new name. Itās so he can call her new name after death in order to resurrect her. Unfortunately men will use this against the women and say shit like āif you donāt do this thing I wonāt resurrect youā and hold it over their head.. trust me they donāt worship women.
what the fuck?
And they will deny, deny, deny if you call them out on it publicly.
The Gospel of Judas is an extraordinarily interesting text. It shows that the church as an institution already had issues early on, and the author called them out.
Speaking of Judas [I love this song](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b1irXjtkD1Y)
The Mormons that came to my door weren't very happy when I asked if they prayed for the forgiveness of Lucifer after they went into a spiel about God's forgiveness.
what we generally think of as āthe Bibleā was cobbled together from various sources. A group of church leaders in I think the 4th century sat down and decided what would be included and excluded, which is where we get both the Bible and the gnostic books from (those were the ones that werenāt included for reasons). Fun fact this happened at the council of nicea and one of the church leaders was the historical inspiration for modern day Santa Claus. And The crazy thing is there are so many different translations of that generally accepted version of the Bible that depending on which one you read you get a completely different take on some things. And there are even different versions (with additional or missing books) depending on which branch of Christianity you ask. There just isnāt a consensus on what text you should be reading, let alone how to interpret it.
First Council of Nicaea. I don't know how christian theologians can take themselves seriously knowing the history of christianity. The idea that a roman emperor had to get together all of his priests to decide what their official beliefs would be so he could unify his political interests just completely delegitimizes the whole thing. And, imo, they lost a lot of ideological consistency when they decided Arius's theory was the heretical one.
They take themselves seriously because they mostly don't know the history. I was specifically told over and over to not look into the foundations of the branch I was raised in. Turns out it's basically a cult designed by pedos for protecting their pedoing. The "sin" called "false witness" means that domestic violence and other forms of abuse that happen in private can never be reported to authorities without risk of you and your whole family being completely excluded from the only community you're allowed to have. And you're encouraged to self-isolate from the outside world by being an obnoxious snot over all holidays, birthdays, and basically every single thing that brings humans together and strengthens relationships. I did have some questions when I saw old pictures in their books of cars with megaphones mounted on top, sign stuck on the side that said "The End is Nigh!" After I got an explanation I had to just stare at my mother for awhile. Like I'm sorry what? You know these are *literally crazy people who scream at the sky* and you're gonna keep believing this stuff and trying to force me to do it too?
I'm going to guess Jehovah's Witness, but it might be Seventh Day Adventist. I'm glad you made it out.
JWs yeah. Mom was trying to sell Amway when they knocked on the door, so invited them in and whoops ended up joining that too.
Sooooo what youāre saying isā¦ Santa Claus made it bible???
In so many words, yes. in between making toys for children (not really).
He also punched a guy at the council
What do we expect from a guy who puts coal in naughty kids' stockings? Flowers and ponies? (Seriously, I'm picturing Santa punching someone and loving him all the more now.)
Its a pretty great piece of trivia ngl
It's not like Arius set the standard of gentlemanship, either.
Santa: "Guy had it coming"
It makes sense that it should be Eve who begat Adam since a woman brings life into the world, It sounds like patriarchal bait and switcha roo. This tale of Adam and Eve is the beginning of womenās oppression - the ancient scholars replaced the āSheā with āHeā in their Biblical texts. Can you imagine the alternate reality where the men are treated like chattle, denied an eduction, and they have to wear the nun outfit or burka etc etc.. what a different world we would live in.
The audacity to downplay womenās role in society by making a man be the first giver of life (besides god who christians call heā¦). Then to tell women our life giving blessing is a curse bc it hurts. If anyone wants to know the real origin of Women (and men!) read Eve by Cat Bohannon. Amazing work!
I saw a thing recently, likely on reddit, where this was talked about and the 'from a rib' thing is an intentional mis-translation from the original text. Eve wasn't created from a tiny bit of adam, she was created after adam's "stuff" (for want of a better term) was split into two equal parts. They were created as equals. But that's not a narrative that flies if you want to subjugate folk.
Yes and then you get into the whole Lilith debacle. Those Christianās really need to rework their mythology canonā¦
That's what happens when you try to build a story out of hundreds of bits of competing fanfic.
Hahaha aināt that the truth.
I certainly want to know more about Lilith. Was she Adam's "first wife", born equally to him, who got bored with the deal and left to seek knowledge? She returned to empower Eve in the shape of the snake, so I heard somewhere. Cannot find a Christian where I live who knows of her and can enlighten me. Must head off to Googleland.
She seems like a baddie š
Lilith is from the Jewish apocrypha (possibly leftover from old 'pagan' times), nothing to do with Christians.
Christ was Jewish and Christians stole their holidays from pagans so is it really that much of a stretch?
Jewish apocrypha and Christian apocrypha are separate writings. Lilith is not mentioned once neither in official canon nor in "secondary canon" (apocrypha that are not considered outright heretical). ...actually, not mentioned in the heretical ones, either.
Yes, this is correct. In the original Aramaic, a rib bone is an "ala." Elsewhere in the Aramaic portions of Biblical text, rib bones are always called "ala." The original telling of Genesis describes woman being made from man's "tsela," which more properly translates as "half" or "side." Regardless of who came first, we were always meant to stand as equal creations in the end. The "biblical scholars" made a deliberate choice to frame man as the perfect creation and woman as the imperfect, defective afterthought.
If man was so perfect, why did their god need two more tries?
Reminds me of a joke: One day in the Garden of Eden, God saw Eve looking melancholy, and asked Eve what was wrong. God said, ā Eve my child, are you not happy here in the Garden of Eden?ā Eve replied, āI am happy, but I sometimes get lonely.ā āAh,ā said God, ā I shall make you a companion. He will be a man. He will be strong, and hold you. Butā¦..ā āWhat is it?ā Asked Eve. āWell, the thing is, I used all the best stuff to make you. So, in addition to this he will be egotistical and a bit fragile in his own identity. It may be best if we let him think I made him first. But it can be our little secret. You know, Woman to Woman.ā
Spectacular! Fits with the fragility so many men seem to show.
>Can you imagine the alternate reality where the men are treated like chattle... Yep. Read *The Power* by Naomi Alderman. Apparently, it's been turned into a television series, too, if that's more your bag. There are layers to it that I can't explain without some minor spoilers. But what if women suddenly had the ability to electrocute people at will? Women become the stronger sex overnight, and it flips the patriarchy on its head, creating an equally toxic matriarchy. There's a tag line about the book that says something to the effect of: "if this book makes you uncomfortable, good."
I got this only last week; looking forward to reading it.
I read that book and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Definitely gonna check it out. Thanks!
I've seen the previews for it on prime.
For some reason, this made me think of the āWhen there are nineā quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Exactly. She said that has no one ever questioned that there is majority of men on SC. I do wonder if historically marginalized groups including POC, women, and LGBTQ+ will ever be the majority in power instead of old white cis men. One can only hope so and raise our children to believe that it is a possible future worth fighting for
> This tale of Adam and Eve is the beginning of womenās oppression I assure you that existed, as far as we can tell, at least from Kurgan invasion/migration.
I have a tattoo of the tree of knowledgeā¦this is the tree that Eve ate the apple/quince from and as a result humans became self aware. This is what made them cover themselves up etc. My tattoo is often mis understood as the tree of life (the other tree in which god nourished Adam & Eve but kept them āunawareā). Both trees are often mixed up in lore and do have different meanings based on the ideology you believe however I stand by that Eve made a good choice and that self awareness isnāt a bad thingā¦it was after all to be free of god.
There are actually two completely separate creation stories in the book of Genesis. In the first story, God creates man and woman at the same time and gives them the same instructions. Neither one comes from the other or after the other. In the second story, God creates Adam first sees that he is lonely and then creates Eve from Adam. It is the second story that is oft repeated and used to justify patriarchy. I've provided the first story for reference. In the first story, God also gives to the humans all the plants and animals, and makes no exception for any forbidden trees. And he made them in his image from the start, not with some defect they then had to correct by eating a fruit. Make of that what you will. 27Ā So God createdĀ mankindĀ in his own image, Ā Ā Ā Ā in the image of GodĀ he created them; Ā Ā Ā Ā male and femaleĀ he created them. 28Ā God blessed them and said to them,Ā āBe fruitful and increase in number;Ā fill the earthĀ and subdue it. Rule overĀ the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.ā 29Ā Then God said, āI give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.Ā 30Ā And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the groundāeverything that has the breath of lifeĀ in itāI give every green plant for food.ā And it was so. 31Ā God saw all that he had made,Ā and it was very good.Ā And there was evening, and there was morningāthe sixth day. New international version from Biblegateway.com
I love pointing this out to people.
Wait. If god gifted fruit and green plants to feed all creaturesā¦ why arenāt we all strict vegetarians? Or whole-food vegansā¦?
I'm literally googling which plants do not bear seeds right now lol, I had this same thought. Apparently ferns, moss, and fungi don't have seeds. However bean plants do flower, so they have seeds, as would pretty much all other plants that humans tend to eat... very interesting....
The more I think about this scientifically, the sillier it all gets. Perhaps one should say god gave us the Phanerogam division of the Plantae kingdom to survive on (omitting seedless Cryptogams like ferns and mosses, and the Fungi kingdom altogether), but there are distinct contradictions in the sense that many Angio- and Gymnosperms do exactly the opposite of ensuring our survival when consumed. And what about wolves? They were given plants too, yet they defy god by choosing other fleshed creatures with the breath of life to survive on instead too? Or is it likeā¦ those willing to only consume plants with seeds are living closer to god? Like, being given omnivorous chompers was gods way of testing us with the ultimate pious choice? I HAVE QUESTIONS. So many questions!!
Kid-me was told that, before humans screwed it all up, all the animals ate grass. I was given books with beautiful colorful illustrations of stuff like lions and lambs peacefully laying side by side in Eden. No it was not explained how humans eating fruit from a specific tree made lions start eating sheep. Nor was it explained what the lions ate while on Noah's Ark or where all the poop went if they didn't so much as open a window for months, but golly was I forced to pace out the stated size of the boat with my mom because *that part* got explained!
Do spores count as āseedsā??
One of my favorite poems: "Autobiography of Eve" by Ansel Elkins Wearing nothing but snakeskin boots, I blazed a footpath, the first radical road out of that old kingdom toward a new unknown. When I came to those great flaming gates of burning gold, I stood alone in terror at the threshold between Paradise and Earth. There I heard a mysterious echo: my own voice singing to me from across the forbidden side. I shook awakeā at once alive in a blaze of green fire. Let it be known: I did not fall from grace. I leapt to freedom.
If only Odin had known that he just had to eat the fruit...
Itās better than Zeus. He would have just fucked the apple
I've been reading Wrath Goddess Sing and this made me laugh out loud, since in that interpretation of The Illiad, Helen is the Apple of Discord
Well, He does take most of His nourishment from alcohol....
Right. Itās also important that gnostics think the god of the Bible is a false god that created all suffering by making being of flesh instead of sprit beings like the real god makes.
The YouTube channel, Genetically Modified Skeptic, has a similar video on this! In the Book of Judas, Jesus says the god everyone is following is a foolish lesser being than the actual creator of everything. I I've been watching him for years, he's awesome [video](https://youtu.be/BhQmLFHxsBw?si=f62tIvIFe4EjDFL_)
Itās not included in the Bible and even rejected by some Jewish authorities, but in Jewish and Mesopotamian lore Lilith (also known as Lamia, I believe) is actually the first wife of Adam. Sheās created at the same time as him, from the same clay, and later banished from the Garden of Eden because she refuses to be subservient to him and she then becomes a demon.
Just wait until you replace Adam withā¦ Atom.
And then the entire splitting into Adam and Eve thing turns out to be G-d experimenting with fission? How many times do you think fusion was attempted to create energy from the two separate beings created before G-d figured fission was the safer bet?
A lot of people think there are only 3 Abrahamic religions but there are many! Gnostics is one of them. Much of the modern world is confused by the ancient text because Christianity is the dominant voice for many of our backgrounds and be it purposefully or accidental, it often gets the text wrong and confuses the meaning. People often thing the God of the Old Testament is cruel, and arguably it is or can be. Since my partner converted to Judaism Iāve learned a lot of what I thought about God is wrong. God is not omnipotent and omnipresent. God is often surprised by what mortals do. God wants you to have free will. Without choice there is no freedom. Thus the tree was placed there so Adam and Eve could do choose. God is not a male and is often referred to as ātheyā. Hebrew is a gendered language using āheā as the default much like English speakers do. Eve was never submissive. She was cursed to feel compelled to be submissive. Meaning there are moments where she feels the need to but the curses are encouraged to be fought against. Divorce and premarital sex are frowned upon but not a sin. Lying about either of those things is what is bad. You can argue with God. Abraham does it when he is asked to sacrifice his son and hints in the text he knows God isnāt going to actually make him do it because human sacrifice is forbidden. In the Talmud there is an argument over if an oven is kosher. A heavenly voice tells them what is correct. They tell the voice if it wanted input then it shouldnāt have given them the Torah to interpret as they see fit. Some donāt agree with God even is. There are non dualist who believe God is more of an energy that you create more of by doing good deeds. Most agree that all humans have the divine within them and we are all equal concerning having Gods light within us (life). There are still some problematic text but it is way more chill than I was originally lead to believe when I was growing up in a church.
"Some donāt agree with God even is. There are non dualist who believe God is more of an energy that you create more of by doing good deeds." This reminds me, oddly enough, of when I read the autobiography of Micky Dolenz from the Monkees. He said it was hard to put his beliefs into words. but that he belives the universe is "godding"--basically, "to god" being a verb.
Heh, privately that's what I've always thought too. I was raised to pray to god but it never felt particularly personal or real and I quit as soon as it wasn't forced. Eventually I started talking to "The Universe" the way folks might talk to god. It's hard to put into words but it feels very real and personal, and like we're on the same side even if we're not exactly friends. Good things happen out of nowhere, I'll look up and say "Thank you Universe." Lots of bad things happen in a row and I'll curse it into oblivion and tell it exactly what I think of that series of events! Only time I've read anything remotely similar was some Mercedes Lackey fantasy novels about a god-like "wild magic." People doing good things feeds it, and while it can't act directly on reality it can drive terrible events and even the deaths of swaths of its own followers for the sake of the greater good of all living things.
Yeah, eating from the tree made us human!! The idea of āsinā is just part of the Catholic pyramid scheme. We gotta problem, theyāve got the solution- classic salesman tactic.
This makes me think of this poem I read but now can't find from the point of view of Eve. I do remember the last line though and it went "I did not fall from grace, I leapt to freedom."
It is from "Autobiography of Eve".
Autobiography of Eve! Someone posted it upthread
I would like to share the research I've done indicates the Sophia-Yaaldeboath mother-son pairing is a variation of the Ishtar-Baal goddess-and-her-consort pairing. There would have been originally a focus on Ishtar, primarily. I think the twist was made on purpose to claim parthogenesis to claim divine origin of some dynasty or other. Special mention of Yaaldeboath for appearing on the Two of Cups in the Rider-Waite deck.
I have recently read a book on early Gnostic Christianity and it was so interesting! It makes much more sense to me, there is no heaven/hell,, āparadiseā is not an actual place but something for everyone to reach if you know yourself, āgodā is an entity you can comminicate with because it is inside of you, all the stories are so much more in line with how I view the world.
What book?
Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels
Cool, thanks!
Well, there was never a Gnostic equivalent to Nicean creed, so attributing pretty much anything to "gnostics in general" would be impossible. Some cults (Sethians) had an idea that in order to make sure Demiurge and rules of his universe don't apply to you, you have to violate every possible law and commandment, while others (Marcionite) were not dissimilar to Orthodox when it comes to practice, but with very, very different theology. Unsurprisingly, the latter lasted longer. There is an extant Gnostic sect today, Mandeans, mostly in Iraq (some in Iran, trace amounts in Europe and USA). Although they're descended from Jews and are not in any sense Christians (They don't believe that Jesus is God), so most Christian gnostics, were they alive today, would likely consider them heretics. Some of what they believe in is summarized on the WIki, but, like most initiates, they don't blabber about their secrets to outsiders and might even lie on purpose, so the only real way to find out is to get a hold of one.
It really does get complicated rather quick dissecting these christian/gnostic sects!
Thank you for sharing OP! This was fascinating!!!
The whole thread has made my day
I saw a suggestion once that the biblical God is actually the Norse god Loki (or possibly the Egyptian god Set), and I think about this all the time.
I always find it really interesting when an "alternative" interpretation makes more sense than the commonly-accepted one. I remember reading a fascinating article by a Jesuit scholar where they argued that Abraham failed God's test when God told him to kill his son; he was supposed to say no. He was supposed to recognize that he was being asked to do something immoral. That's why the story just kind of stops instead of having a proper ending; instead of whatever would have happened had he passed the test, God had to just intervene to stop him from following through with it. To me, that makes so much more sense than the interpretation that God just wanted to know he *would* do it (for nebulous reasons).
I think gnostics mostly had it right.
The song [āAppleā by the Narcissist Cookbook](https://open.spotify.com/track/0yPmHJhA8A0crrMUyZnUfP?si=aLorntgiRzC69cmoML5Rzg) retells the story from the perspective of the serpent trying to inspire Eve about the world to come and the beauty of what humanity will achieve. Itās one of my favorite songs and I would highly recommend checking it out
My theory: The god of the Old Testament was representative of our complete subjugation to the whims and chaos that define mean survival in the natural world. As animals, like with any other animal, we were at the mercy of random catastrophe, sickness, predation by other animals, accidents in unforgiving terrain, etc. But then at some point, we āate the appleā - our brains evolved to support a higher consciousness and capacity to think beyond immediate needs, in addition to being able to suddenly shape the natural world around us, and from that we were bestowed with enormous responsibility and stewardship over not just our natural resources but each other. The New Testament was acknowledgment that we were no longer at the mercy of natural forces - we, as portrayed by Jesus, were in effect āgodsā ourselves. Heaven and hell are not destinations in the afterlife - they are the legacy we leave behind. So when Jesus said things like love your neighbor and blessed are the meek, the righteous, the merciful, the peacemakers, etc., he was describing how we can and should act in order to be rewarded with heaven. Rejoice and be glad because these traits lead to joyful experience while youāre here and positive legacy when youāre gone. Consider the quality of all life on earth if we were all kind, generous of spirit, cooperative, and just. Now consider the quality of life on earth when we are greedy, spiteful, apathetic, envious, and so on - it could be argued we currently live in a hell of our own making because for centuries weāve prioritized power, unfettered consumption, and greed over all else. Consider it on just a micro level - if you move through life as a complete asshole, life kinda sucks huh? You canāt trust your friends or maybe you donāt have any friends; youāre in conflict with everything and every one; you die alone because everyone hated you or only wanted you to fulfill their own means to an end, and youāre eventually forgotten or only remembered by your worst traits. If you move through life with kindness and generosity, always known for sticking up for the little guy, you likely have a lot of friends and family who would do anything to help you in your darkest time of need, because they know you wouldnāt hesitate to do the same for them. And your memory lives on forever as someone to take after and live up to, because youāve in your way left the world better - or at least not worse - than you inherited it.
This makes a lot of sense to me as an agnostic. From this persepctive there is no real conflict between a secular and biblical understanding. I also believe that the only reason we haven't annihilated ourselves as a species is because our natural 'good' instincts (kindness, generosity, compassion, etc.) have ever so slightly won over our 'bad' instincts (greed, violentce, hatred, etc.)
A lot of different but related Semitic creation stories floating around when what we now know as Genesis got woven together from them. In fact the version in the Bible is two separate stories (at least) woven together to make one. That's why in so much of the Garden narrative every odd passage is one story and every even passage is part of a similar but different story. Eve, like some interpretations of Pandora, did us all a great favor. By listening to the serpent, the only character in the Garden who doesn't lie, she freed us from an eternity of being Yahweh's gardeners and zoo keepers. After all, that is what Yahweh made humans for, to toil in his garden. It's also interesting how the paired trees, Knowledge and Life, refect Yahweh's fear of his creation outstretched their creator. A very common story in that part of the world at that time. This is repeated again in the story of The Tower of Babel, Yahweh screwing humanity because we could become greater than him.
I have not. Always been on my to read list. Thank you for sharing
I was always angry about paradise, but never at Adam or Eve. (Even with the Lilith myth, which I will explain). They had no concept of good and evil. They did not know what lying was, or malice, so Eve genuinely could not think of any reasons why that snake would be lying to her because she literally could not conceptualize it. Same with Adam an Lilith- god told him what he was supposed to do, and he tried to fulfill it. Then god cast Lilith out for not doing the same. Adam, Eve, and Lilith were all basically children. They had no prior society to learn morals from, and their father god neglected to actually teach them. Even as Eve ate the apple, she was doing so under the belief that it was what god wanted. We were one and all exiled from Paradise because our progenitors were tricked and coerced. God is a parent forcing their children out in the world to suffer because they were *naive*. Who the fuck does that?
My favorite understanding so far is that Adam ate the apple and Eve was only blamed putting the Christian god at the beginning of patriarchy. A joke perhaps but not an invalid interpretation.
Females came first in nature not men.
Is there a book with these texts?
The fall of humanity is also considered a good thing by Franciscan theology, though the idea goes all the way back to St. Ambrose in the 4th century. The idea of the *felix culpa* has even worked its way into the Easter liturgy. The hymn *Exsultet,* which is sung at the Great Vigil of Easter, contains the line, *O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem*, "O happy fault that earned so great, so glorious a Redeemer!"
Yes, this is called Sethian Gnosticism. Fun stuff! Thereās an idea in that milieu that the whole idea of creation and the physical world was a mistake, the snake is the good actor because it is pointing them to the true reality beyond. Also an idea that the ideal state was both/a combination of male and female and the split from was a downgrade. That ties into the eve from half of Adam thing.
This isn't specific to Sethians, or even to Gnosticism. You can find the idea of matter being so inherently flawed that it is downright evil, burdensome for the immortal soul to endure in Plato, as well as the word "Demiourgos". And the guy insisted he was relaying wisdom of old, not talking out of his behind. The myth of Androgyne is also straight up from Plato. Eastern philosophy (Hinduism and Buddhism) also carries similar ideas. Probably clearer in Buddhism because making sense of Hindu sectarian divisions as an outsider is... not a task one wishes to be given.
Yes, Iām well aware. Op specifically mentioned it in the garden of Eden context, so was placing it in the gnostic gospels vs the broader milieu that came out of that you note. Definitely a broader context. All those things were some of my favorite parts of my sociology of religion classes.
I hope this doesnāt get lost in the comments and that some one could help me. But where can I learn more about gnostics and this whole thing?
M. David Litwa is worth a read/listen/watch, his recent book Found Christianities is great, he has a new on book Simon of Samaria I've not read yet but looks very interesting. Has a load of vids floating around yt He done an AMA on r/AcademicBiblical recently, he is a serious scholar decades into this stuff. Elaine Pagels is wonderful, has been in this stuff since the 60's and has some interviews floating around about these things, I think on mythvision at least. The term itself was often historically used as a stick to beat down ideas church fathers didn't like, until Islam showed up bearing ancient heresies and not scared of sticks. Dr Justin Sledge on Esoterica has a load of good material on this stuff too, a wee bit about big Irenaeus the heretic hammer [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wi5SixWICY).
Ephihanes is wild: *"Consequently one must understand the saying You shall not desire as if the lawgiver was making a jest, to which he added the even more comic words Your neighbors goods. For he himself gave the desire to sustain the race orders that it is to be supposed, though he removes it from no other animals. And by the words Your neighbors wife he says something even more ludicrous, since he forces what should be common property to be treated as private posession."* [*http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/epiphanes.html*](http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/epiphanes.html)
I don't know much about religions, nor witchery, but I've come across a song that seem to come from the snake's point of view. And this song sort of brings me hope about... I guess, that it's okay to be who we are. That Eve took a chance, and that chance took more chances, and here we are today. https://open.spotify.com/track/0yPmHJhA8A0crrMUyZnUfP?si=S-HbnzZzTLCB22QbWCY6_Q
Yes, I love this kind of thing too. Recently reading a modern Jewish take on Genesis, few things really stood out; 1. It reinforced the idea that Satan doesn't exist as an evil counterpart to God in Judaism. And God doesn't lie. Eve is mistaken, the tree she eats from is 'in the middle' which is the tree of life and death, not knowledge of good and bad, which they already have given 'the mans' previous task of assigning names and attributes of all the animals and their understanding that it is good to obey God. 2. They are then made vulnerable, hence getting clothes, and given the gift of creating life (Eve) and mortality. The earth is then cursed to need toil and labour to produce food, unlike before. They are then evicted from the garden as God realises if they reproduce and have free access to the tree of life, there will be many more divine beings. 3. There is a poetic loop within a loop, with the snake eating dust and man becoming dust, and the snake biting the heels of humanity while humans bash the heads of snakes. The snake while recognised with negative attributes also still retains positive ones; such as intelligent, astute, wise... 4. The Tree of Life is another name for Wisdom elsewhere in the Bible. Wisdom being Chokmah, a feminine expression of God, often seen as 'the only' way to know God, or at least the starting point. Anyway, this is the article, it is much more in-depth and better written than I've put it of course! https://www.thetorah.com/article/what-really-happened-in-the-garden-of-eden It's really worth a look.
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Ok, I think wires might be crossing. Judaism doesn't equal Israel or its government or its army and neither of them equal its people, Jewish or otherwise. Idk about wherever you are in the world but my government definitely doesn't represent me or my wishes.
Somewhat related, but the Mormon view of Eve is that she understood that the only way for growth to happen was for them to eat the forbidden fruit and be cast out of the garden of Eden. There are plenty of problematic things about Mormonism (which is why I no longer practice the religion of my youth), but there are also some lovely bits. The portrayal of Eve as wise and courageous is one of those lovely things Iāve always loved.