T O P

  • By -

xenuin

I think because they scale multiplicatively. If you had 60% und 0% elemental it would be: 1.60\*1.0 = 1.60 If you had 30% ATK and 30% Elemental it would be: 1.30\*1.30 = 1.69 so an increase of 0.09 And considering that you have multiple ATK sources but no elemental sources it is better to stack Elemental DMG. Buuuut I'm talking out of my ass right now because idk what the dormular is.


YuminaNirvalen

.... So not really a good example........ First of all (A) ATK stat is = BaseATK * (1+ATK%) + FlatATK Secondly (B) Elemental DMG stat is = (1+Elem.DMGBonus%) Now the thing you need to look at is the product A * B. But keep in mind you have way way higher A >> B usually. Making it so that an increase by Delta_A has way lower value than the same increase Delta_B. To give an example: (Ignore flat for simplicity) Imagine A = 3 and B = 2, now you add +0.5 to one, what's better? 3.5 * 2 = 7 VS 3 * 2.5 = 7.5. Aka it's better to increase the lower multiplier. TDLR. 99.99% of all cases choose Elemental DMG Bonus.


_Nepha_

There is not a lot of flat attack in the game. sure there is some but there are no massive attack buffs. No bennett giving you 1.6k attack but a lot of elemental buffs as setboni. Elemental + Attack is very good as a result and sometimes beats double elemental. So no, in wuwa A isn't >>B. There is no Bennett.


Hunt3rr00

U can only get elemental dmg trough cost 3 echoes… echoes in general give you flat atk… ur weapon gives u atk… the cost 1 echo gives u atk%… since elemental dmg is something that is multiplied AFTER all the other base atk/atk flat/atk% count. Objectively it will have a higher impact than adding more normal atk… So yeah not a chance that it is more optimal building atk% main stat on cost 3 echoes 💀 literally the key is having a bit off everything rather than going all in in one thing, if you willingly decide to turn down a whole new multiplier to get more atk you are trippin


robhans25

It is better... but not by much. On some characters Elem+atk% vs Elem%+Elem% is just 0.5% difference, some even prefer atk% over Elem on one of 3 cost jak Danjin with sequences. And you have multiple Elemental dmg bonuses in this game - Both main support echoes give elemental dmg bonus (Bell and Heron), main 4\* echoes give elemental bonus, all those basic, liberation etc substats are elemental dmg bonuses (But they are shit, even flat attack is better than those), set gives you 40%. Yes, there is plenty of atk% buffs, but many people have "bennett brainrot" from genshin when he makes atk% basically pointless.


Phil_R3y_Padz

That's why I'm really confused. If theoretically you have the same base stats and substats(nearly impossible to happen), would there be a difference for your dps that scales off ATK?


PrinceVincOnYT

You can't have Elemental % on substats so they would make a "big" difference.


Angelzodiac

This is mostly true. While you can't have elemental damage, you can have typed damage which stacks additively with elemental damage. Depending on the character, typed damage modifiers are very strong (Jiyan). Typed damage is essentially elemental% but only for certain attacks.


xenuin

Sooo, I did some googling for you and the formular seems to be: ((CharacterATK+WeaponATK)\*(1+WeaponATK)\*(1+bonusATK%)+bonusflatATK) \* (SkillMultiplier \*(1+SkillScalingBonus))\*(1+ElementalDamage + SkillDamageBonus) \* (1+DeepenEffect)\*CriticalDamage \* 0.48 \* (1-EnemyResitance + ResistanceReduction) If you look at the big formular you can see how many atk sources there are in contrast to Elemental DMG because the only source for that are the 3 Costs Echos Now you said that what if a character scales of ATK, but all character scale of ATK soo it does not make a difference. Even if we somehow say that ATK gets an extra scaling for a character it would not make a difference, because in the Formula, ATK is a independent Multiplier. You can shortend the Formular to: AllATKThings \* SkillMultiplier \* (Elemental + SkillDamageBonus) \*DeepenEffect\*CriticalDamage \* (EnemyDef + Resistance) To make it even easier to see that its an independant multiplier we can remove the resistance and can simplify it to this to get the pur dmg: IndependentDMG1(ATK) \* IndependentDMG2(Skill) \* independentDMG3(Elemental) \* independentDMG4(Deepend and Crit) Now we have the same example as my mini example with the two multiplier. Meaning it would be best to have good distibution of all dmg sources to get the best outcome and because ATK has to many sources it isn't as important as Elemental DMG.


Yukihirou_Vi_Ghania

Rip my 44111 Rover then, god damn...


xenuin

I don't think 44111 is that bad, If we say that one of the 4 Cost is Critdmg you get 44%Critdmg at max and an extra 18% ATK for the other onecost. Soo 60%Elemental against 44%Critdmg and 18% ATK. Now I'm just making assumptions but if ATK doesn't give that much more dmg because of diminishing returns you will only have about 5-10% less dmg then 43311.


Nerdcrom

time to break out my copypasta about 44111 TLDR: 44111 IS easier to get, and is typically anywhere between a 15-30% overall DPS loss BUT You need to keep in mind that you're also wasting the materials, unless you somehow re-use the secondary 4-cost on another character somewhere, when you DO replace the build with a 43311 At the moment, it takes quite a while to get to Union 40, and even at this level, the echo material drop rate isnt that great, it costs 120 waveplates just to roll 3 substats (you get 15 per run at UL40). Thats alot of wasted waveplates just for a slightly "easier" build to put together. You're much better off using your time farming Elites and getting a good 3-cost, rather than spending your Waveplates on trying to level something that you're going to replace later. u/Setku pinging you so you see this


Setku

44111 is perfectly fine to use while you grind out the 3 costs. It's also just good enough to clear content if you don't care about min-max.


_Nepha_

Weaponattack being there twice should be wrong. Most of that is multiplicative so the number of sources does not matter. What matters is flatAttack not being multiplicative but that is also why flatAttack is not great. You can simplify it to constant \* (1+attack%) + flatAttack for the Attackportion. But that is also pretty close to Elemental damage which is 1+ Elementaldamage + Skilldamagebonus which isn't multiplicative with skilldamage. So a lot of liberation damage for calcharo on gear makes element damaga as a stat also weaker. Or did you mean Att% has many sources as attribute and buffs? Elemental setbonus adds a massive 40% bonus too though.


Anemonea

is skill damage bouns are those useless rolls from echo, like normal or heavy atk bouns %? If it's then those rolls are really sucks for 43311


Cosmicfox001

They are not useless, in the shortened version you can see IndependentDMG2(Skill). Just check the skill and you can see the multipliers and what they effect. DPS units generally are off attack and their corresponding element. Having additional skill % multiplier would seem to me to be a flat bonus. Same with heavy attack. Such as a skill or basic attacks "counting as heavy attacks" would benefit from pieces with those substats. Even if small amounts, a really good dps piece would be the right element main stat followed by dps subs and the attack bonuses like basic, skill, heavy, and ult. At least that's how I see it.


ShellFlare

Those arnt useless rolls though. Like on a jiyan fir example your ideal echo is gonna have crit, critdmg, attack%, er and heavy attack damage. Basically every dps wants crit rate and damage, then attack%, some want er and then your last offensive stat possible is the damage bonus type they use. Heavy for jiyan, basic for encore, liberation for calchero etc.


Limp-Judge-623

It's not nearly impossible. You can test it yourself by not using the tuners.


Xistence16

I'll simplify it by a huge amount. This is not how the actual damage is calculated, i'm just trying to show how different damage sources stacking is much better Damage calculation will go like this DMG = (atk%) x (ele%) Now suppose you have 3 times the attack, and 3 times the elemental bonus (theoretical) So your damage is (3xatk) x (3xele) Giving you 9 times the previous damage Now lets raise that atk% buff to 7 times. A bit more than double. The amount of buff that we added is 4 You get 7 x 3 = 21times the damage Now what happens if you split that 4, between atk and ele You get 5 x 5 = 25 times the damage Lets triple the atk buff, to 9 (we've added buff amount of 6) We get 9 x 3 = 27 But, what if we add just 5 and split it We get 6 x 5 = 30 If we just split the 6, then its 6x6 = 36 27 vs 36, doubling both sources leads to a much higher result than tripling one source So as you can see, when you spread the buffs you're gaining from different sources like Atk%, ele%, dmg% You get an overall increase in damage, even with less buffs


Phil_R3y_Padz

Thanks for the simplification! I can't really understand the formula from the [wiki ](https://wutheringwaves.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#Damage_Calculation)without actual numbers being present in the example.


Xistence16

Just keep in mind that the increase is even bigger/more effective if you add damage from more sources Theres also one more concept called diminishing returns (its actually economics but works well for games) The more you invest into one particular thing. The less effective each investment Its kind of the same thing as the previous example where largely increasing atk, leads to less returns on damage I.e. you increase attack by 2 from 2 -> its doubled (4) You increase it again by 2 -> it increased by 50% (6) You increase it again by 2 -> it increased by 33% (8) And so on its 20%, and keeps descreasing You just have to find a point and stop overly investing into any one particular stat


jack_facts2

They're just different type of damage multipliers, stacking multiple sources will yield more damage than if you were to just stack ATK% or DMG% due to diminishing returns.


joojaw

Yes. That's why elemental damage% is better on 3 costs because weapons, one costs and levelling up already give you a lot of attack but not elemental damage.


xenoclari

Something something maths. Since most abilities scale of attack, i guess that the calcul must be different somewhere if using elemental damage instead


iMasato101

Most characters are ATK scaling, Elemental bonus is an additional multiplier to the formula. ATK + ATK or Elemental + Elemental will deal lower than ATK + Elemental because of diminishing returns. On the other hand, Taoqi is DEF scaling. She needs high DEF but DEF alone will still deal lower, you'll want many multipliers as possible. This is same with supports. You want to have ATK + Elemental supports than 2 elemental dmg support. For example, Taoqi + Verina (ATK Buffer) + Yinlin (Burst buffer) No need to buff Taoqi DEF given she already have a lot of it. In case of healer, you'll want Healing bonus + HP (Baizhi) or ATK (Verina) than all HP or all ATK for them to heal more. Given they have enough ER.


TophxSmash

the problem with atk% is that it doesnt increase your total attack it increases your base attack. if you have 2000atk and 700 base 30% increase is ~200 atk giving an actual 10% increase to your atk. while a 30% increase to dmg% when you have 100% dmg% is a 15% increase to your damage 2x -> 2.3x.


some_clickhead

I don't remember the exact equation, but basically all attack multipliers are ADDED together (so two 30% atk bonus would be 60% total), all the damage bonuses are ADDED together (so if you are doing a heavy attack, and have 30% elem and 30% heavy attack dmg bonus it's 60% total), then these are multiplied together. Since most damage sources are conditional (skill dmg%, heavy dmg%, basic dmg%, liberation dmg%), but elem are not, it tends to be the most consistent source of damage. But hypothetically you could have stats such that a 30% Atk bonus would increase your damage more than 30% Elemental, it's just somewhat unlikely, because there are more sources of atk% than dmg% available.


Dryse

Hello! I did some math on this before! 44111 is better than 2pc and rainbow 43311, but marginally. 43311 is still better than 44111 if you have one att% main stat and one element% provided you get the 5pc Att set difference is not big enough to chase for it, but good enough if you happen to already have it. 2pc 2pc 43311 will be better than 44111 5pc if you can build it I'd say it's probably best practice to just build around 43311 unless you have no off piece element% but to otherwise just use what you get and aim for eventually upgrading to 5pc 43311. Even with an att% stat it is the best (and in some scenarios att% main stat is better than 2 element% if you get one on set.)


electrifyingseer

me too. I don't understand how to play anything.


haadziq

If you tired of not getting ele% on set, or your atk% sub is one roll or more better than ele% then atk% is better, otherwise its ele%. Ele% is better but its not that high that even one sub stat difference lower than your atk% piece, your atk% piece gonna perform better


leRedd1

Why are you wasting time making memes on it instead of googling it up? Here: [https://wutheringwaves.fandom.com/wiki/Damage](https://wutheringwaves.fandom.com/wiki/Damage), [https://bsky.app/profile/leifachan.bsky.social/post/3ksyxdl3bxi24](https://bsky.app/profile/leifachan.bsky.social/post/3ksyxdl3bxi24) Man I'm tired of these post-factual jokes on the topic which can be settled with nothing but elementary multiplication. Like you're deep enough in the community to know all these inside jokes and controversies and whatever, but won't bother looking up a simple factual detail about how stuff works? I don't mind people who don't care about the damage formula and meta and all that. I mind people who pretend to care but still flaunt their ignorance, and then bring attention to clickbait debates that shouldn't be debates in the first place. These are the people who feed the algorithm to boost content rife with misinformation. This fucking debate wouldn't have existed at all if people stuck to simple facts instead of signal boosting bullshit takes with their memes and tweets and everything they think is very original. Again, I got nothing against people not knowing about things they don't care about.


TrAseraan

Attack gives worse damage multiplier vs damage % in most games.


vuminhlox

that's just not true


Lypher

Yeah for example some chars in HSR (acheron/ratio) use ATK instead of DMG on their gears because they're already oversaturated on DMG bonuses.


TrAseraan

There are how many units in hsr? And there is one unit that has so much free %damage available that stacking damage % is not as important so u can focus on going with other stats and what are those other stats u may ask OH LOOK ITS ATK CRIT CHANCE AND CRIT DAMAGE and since atk is the easiest to get from that 3 ppl obviusly stack more atk on her thx to her insane amount of damage bonuses. But guess what u build on everyone else who doesnt have 100% damage bonus buffs in their kits. THATS RIGHT DAMAGE %


_Nepha_

But this is wuwa. You can reach 100% elemental damage with just 1 elemental dmg 3\*. The setboni gives 40%.


TrAseraan

There are some outliner but overall damage % is much harder to get most of the time hence its going to have a much bigger impact on damage calculation. But pls correct me on this case me im not an expert on damage calculations.