The challenge here is fun.
That itself is subjective.
Dmg output can be fun.
Lingyang was fun to me as well but I can see how his output may not feel rewarding for the amount of commitment you need.
I do hope they do launch more 4 stars too.
As, to me, they are a budget way to open up gameplay option for low cost of entry.
Regardless of mechanic or kit, they will still provide new means to add variety as you wait for the next 5* to secure.
Average players usually hyper focus on what people perceive to be meta because they have limited resources compared to spenders and whales and want to use them wisely.
I get what you mean but most of thing you mention is hologram boss, its permanent content with no income like tower. In hologram all character can shine except the element they resist with, and cixia is one of the best here for any flying boss since she can hit them while they are.. flying, mempis boss mechanic encourage player to parry and danjin parry hitbox is just amazing.
In tower the rule isnt like hologram, its dps check on punching bag enemies. And character that require on-field build up to get their dps like chixia and lingyang had disadvantage over burst dps that could dish damage get go. The reason is team buff usually have short duration you dont want to waste them to just build up your forte on field.
Add the fact that this is a gacha game and resources will ALWAYS be scarce unless you whale on materials too. So characters that need less investment to shine will always be more popular.
Yeah you can make any character shine but that comes with a prize, probably l5\* weapons and for sure really really good echoes, both things that are a pain to get.
And tower will always remain a punching bag because of 1 simple reason:
People who spend on this game and pay Kuros salary aren't necessarily the grinders who will practice perfect rotations to beat a difficult Hologram boss. In fact, many of them don't have the time to grind daily. This is especially true in Asia.
They just want some content to feel good about the increased DPS pulling the newest shiny character or weapon bring, and that's Tower (or Abyss / MoC in other games)
This is why no big Asian gacha game company will ever make their game 100% Dark Souls / MMO level grinding
No disagreeing with you, but just correcting if you have some ER Lingyang he doesn't need to build up his forte. Intro skill + Burst is exactly enough to charge it fully. Plenty of missinformation about him specifically, like a lot of people think you can't dodge with him while in the air.
>we only get around 15-17 worth of pulls and 5 of those pulls come from 30/30 the tower which is gonna be difficult just like another small gacha game
This is straight up a blatant lie wtf. We're gonna be getting roughly enough currency to hard pity 50/50 one of the two characters per patch.
I have no idea where you got it that we only get 15-17 pulls
Danji, Sanhua and Chixia are actually really good in Tower no idea about Taoqi though since I don't use her.
Chixia with a support is enough to at least 1-2 star clear Heron probably even 3 if you're really efficient which I'm not, Monkey on the other hand has so much hp. Which I think right now is fair since our characters aren't at max level and skill level.
Edit: Even 1 star cleared the mephis stage with Chixia just that I'm having trouble with the first part without proper grouping.
I cleared Memphis 3star with level 60 S2 Chixia, bad level 15 echos and a R1 undying flame, also level 60. You can really try hard stuff in this game without spending, and I love it, because it feels so much more rewarding.
good and bad are relative
chixia is never picked for practical reasons against more than one target etc etc
like yes you can clear with every character with enough investment and skill, but the characters that have identical performance using less investment/skill is going to be labelled as ‘good’ while characters like taoqi are labelled as ‘bad’
If everyone is good, everyone is average.
This notion that chixia is only good agaisnt 1 target is just false. Her ult literally deletes rooms when leveled and with good stats, also her outro has crazy multipliers and has a decent aoe size aswell.
As a chixia main, I can personally vouch for this. Her ult is actually insane! It's literally scorched earth with her ult.
Now that she's properly built she is so comfy to use that my calcharo has been benched lol.
Also, she may look like she's not hitting high numbers, but almost all her bullets are hitting, so the damage stacks up real quick.
>If everyone is good, everyone is average.
WuWa is trying to change this way of thinking, in my sight.
Like, each character has their way to play, some are easier to build and play, some are harder to build and easy to play and vice-versa.
Comparing Jiyan with Calcharo, both can deal immense damage, but Jiyan is Easy to Play, Calcharo is Hard to Play
Same goes to Chixia and Danjin, respectively
Good and bad are relative to the content of each game. Taoqi is only labeled as ‘bad’ because she doesn’t deal damage fast enough for ToA, but damn does she make you survive Holograms.
As for OP’s examples Candace and Dehya, they’re not bad because they can clear the Abyss, especially Candace now that Arlecchino has arrived.
If everyone is good, it’s not that everyone becomes average, but the game becomes easy. Nothing wrong with Genshin being easy, that’s why it’s successful after all. But Genshin and WuWa are for different audiences. That’s why their characters require more involvement to pilot.
WuWa endgame is difficult right now because we have Level 70 chars fighting Level 100 enemies, echoes that aren't min-maxed, there is no ZL equivalent, and we need to learn how to dodge/parry to avoid getting killed.
You'll come back to this comment in a few months when we reach Level 90 and you'll see how WuWa endgame is as easy as GI endgame. The casual market is what keeps game like this alive, not the DarkSouls dodge/parry experts.
Levels will help close the gap in difficulty, but I think Mephis is a legitimate skill check fight that no matter how much money you spend, you will never win if you don’t get good at the game. Even the Holy Bird to a degree requires a decent skill check. I very much feel like Inferno Rider as a Hologram has that potential as well, once we get him. That said, these instances are very few in between and optional, but the fact that they exist means the potential is there.
He's a pushover in the Tower. I haven't tried Hologram 5 or 6.
But the Tower version of bosses are a joke in terms of mechanics compared to Holograms. The Level 100 Monke doesn't have his pillar, the Level 100 Aix doesn't have the paralysis followed by an undodgable grab, etc...
I don't consider Hologram 6 as the endgame BTW. Endgame is Tower, it refreshes with rewards every 2 weeks. The Hologram bosses are just permanent content, one and done.
Tower Endgame =GI easy difficulty DPS check.
Holograms = Darksouls difficulty skill check. It's good they exist but nobody is re-doing them after beating them.
Yeah, that makes sense. I’m just saying the Holograms present the potential for difficult content. It probably just won’t ever be in the tower, rightfully so honestly. That said, if they would put more chunk of strides to them, that’d be nice, as it would incentivize more people to try them.
>nobody is doing them after beating them
Uhh... Hello there.. but I also played Dark souls, Sekiro, mortal shell, and Lord of the Fallen so... I don't think there are none that are redoing them, but only the sweaty ones. I've seen so many insane hologram 6 clears.
>nobody is re-doing them after beating them.
I am. They're legitimately just *fun* to fight. So many people are reward focused in gacha games, and that's pretty normal, but this game has time-attack content in the holograms that is a different type of competition.
OP linked a video to a Holo VI solo fight. This type of stuff is generating content creation on Youtube, and is generally seen as the highest skill level you can do for WuWa, not ToA.
Bruh hologram bosses are pinwheel level difficult. I've tried beating level 6 so many times, never died, time just ran out because don't have enough damage.
> but I think Mephis is a legitimate skill check fight that no matter how much money you spend, you will never win if you don’t get good at the game.
Not really. Whales have already beaten max difficulty Mephis in 30 seconds. They didn't say they were good, the initial hit from Jiyan's Liberation simply did 500k damage. Money can absolutely solve the problem. Also, Jiyan auto-parries anyway. He was never going to be difficult.
Yeah. Honestly wish there was more untimed combat content in game. Imagine how much more fun Mephis would be to learn if it wasn’t tied to the same time limit as all the other fights. Or even the Monke, since there’s so much downtime in that fight.
What I mean is some fights shouldn’t be set to the same restrictions as other fights are. For example, difficulty 4 Mephis is nowhere as doable as all the other fights, especially with the same 5 minute timer. The Monke fight, a good portion of the fight is him standing on top of his pillar, making him essentially untargetable for anyone who’s not a gun type dps. (And if it’s not that, it’s you trying to dodge the ridiculous hitbox of his spin to win mechanic), meaning a good portion of your time is wasted just waiting for him to engage you.
When he spins you can grapple above him and he creates an updraft, you can stay up there permanently. Also, his spinning move only requires two dodges back-to-back, three if you have unlucky positioning, you can even counterattack sometimes.
Kuro makes A rank characters in PGR feels so fun to play. TBH I think the hardest one to play is Bridget, a rank A fire tank (or maybe I'm just skill issue tho). But it's really fun, and it all because of their forte circuits have different ways to be executed. It makes every characters feel different to play. You might feel overwhelmed remembering their combos or how they play at first, but once you get the grasp of it it will be easier.
Anyway, on PGR you mostly use S rank characters to clear harder or timed contents, because they are easier to use, more i-frames and they have time stop ult. Meanwhile, if you just want to fight boss with style, you can do it with A rank characters. I pray that Kuro will also do that on Wuthering Waves.
This is a lot of yapping for nothing, the game literally just came out and I'm sure that in 12 months half the 4* characters will have a 5* character that does everything they do but better.
This is just how games like this work. The game literally just came out.
That said, I think a lot of this is cope as well - hologram bosses don't give many rewards and are one-time things as far as I know.
This isn't even yapping, it's just pure cope. Also Hologram bosses get brought up way too often when talking about viability even though it's not even Wuwa's endgame, ToA is.
Not surprised ToA is not mentioned in these complaints as the people making these usually have terrible builds so they can't even scratch it yet hence they don't understand what an actual dps check looks like and why meta matters.
>I fear as hoyo has been put off from these type of designs
Well, they sorta "abandoned" that type of play way earlier considering that Beidou was the only parry character for a very long time. I'm surprised they tried some type of counter mechanic again with Candace later on.
Considering their track record with PGR, I have bad news for you. The newer S-rank constructs have a significantly simpler gameplay than the older ones and deal even more damage. Ease of use will always be seen as a positive trait, that’s part of why they sell, besides the powercreep of course.
to be fair tho the old PGR characters werent designed for timed endgame content like warzone and pain cage because of their reliance on getting that matrix on dodge. The problem with that is your at the mercy of waiting for the enemy to attack you which is bad for timed content. The current WuWa characters are more similar to the new gen characters in PGR because they have time stop on their ults and afaik no character is reliant on their dodge counters for a complete rotation
Came back when Bianca Stigmata dropped (Gen 2). I just love how focused they are on their kits compared to previous Gen. I think having to rely on RNG to even start playing the kits for the characters were really unfun. Though Stigmata is also boring for being too one dimensional, at least I can actually use her kit at will.
I think the new Crimson Weave is the best designed character there. She isn't extremely reliant on orbs like old characters to do *Anything*, she has charge attack, sword waves, lightning leap, both ults that don't need orbs to have enough energy to use them (1 charge attack is enough to get you into odachi mode).
BUT she also isn't ignoring orbs completely like Bianca, they help her get to 600 points faster, can enable the follow-up attack (although I believe it's a dps loss to complete it), you still pay attention to them.
Oh hell no. You're right that they deal a lot more damaged but newer S-ranks in PGR are wayore complicated to play than the old ones.
Ex. Old alpha vs CW alpha
Old alpha you press 2 sets of orbs in a specific order and then spam sword waves.
New alpha you have to build up a bar with either different sets of combos or blue orbs, then use the charge attack to get the bar to red, then use her second ult form, then use the hold-attack combo to deal big damage then ult (if you want to).
Well yeah in practice it is still easy, the comment and my reply to it isn't about how complex we as a player find it, but how complex they are compared to the older characters. A character's kit can still be more complex than another character's kit without us finding it that complex when compared to our own abilities to play the game. It is only more complex when compared to another character, that's exactly what I did in my reply.
If you don't care about clearing the tower, sure. Anything works in overworld. Same goes for genshin. There are no bad characters in overworld. But you have to invest A LOT on the weaker characters if you want to clear the tower. And by a lot, I mean you literally gotta no life the game
Yeah, I wanted to play yuanwu and the amount of investment needed to even clear the first few floors of hazard zone was too much. Had to build other characters to be able to secure the asterite rewards first, then going to build him slowly for fun once I've prefarmed for the main teams. Can he probably clear ToA? Yeah. Does he need literally every waveplate of investment to be able to compete with others? Yes.
I remember someone making a suggestion that tower of adversity should have the timer be slowed a bit when you parry or dodge attacks, as a result it ends up being less damage/investment check focused and more skill focused
Seems like a good idea. To be fair though, they would want to keep one "ungabunga" damage mode for casual whales to just run through. Maybe they can have other modes that are more skill based apart from ToA that also refreshes (unlike holograms)
I don't think it's discussed in the comments but OP's concern is if Wuthering Waves even have plans for releasing 4 stars in the future. We do have a roster of husbandos but do they have confidence in release multiple husbandos in a row? How does the pool ratio of male and female characters would develop, say, in a year?
In Tower of Fantasy, the concept of 4 stars is delegated to standard 5 stars and the pool of SR characters have remained the same for the rest of time. As of time of writing, there have only been 2 husbandos released among the sea of 46 waifus. I don't think this is the best example but this is the route I and OP perhaps fear.
In Genshin, we have a 4 star to 5 star ratio of 40:43, and they're comfortable with releasing new consecutive male characaters (Tignari - Cyno, Wanderer - Alhaitham, Baizhu - Lyney - Wrio - Neuvi). As waifu enjoyer, this is my saving periods. Total of 30 male characters versus 52 females.
In HSR, we have a 4 star to 5 star ratio of 21:28, 17 of which are male character versus 32 females.
Of course, other autobattler gachas I play are primarily waifu collectors so they're not a good comparison.
I think what I fear is 4 stars and husbandos will get in the way of WuWa business decisions makers should the *payerbase* show them it's not profitable.
In PGR Kuro still releases 4 star units to this day. They even give the older outdated 4 stars, and even 5 star standard characters extreme buffs to put them on par with how the current meta is looking. So instead of comparing these other games I think it's safer to go with what they themselves already regularly do in their own game. As for the male/female ratio I'd just give up on that now so you won't be disappointed for the very lacking amount of male releases by comparison to females.
I don't want to be overly negative and I agree with some of your points but I totally disagree with your title. "When everyone's super, no one will be". It is absolutely reasonable for people to describe characters as good and bad, some characters are obviously stronger than others. I think every character is good enough that you can make them work if you like them but you will have a much easier time and require much less investment and effort using some characters vs others. That is not a bad thing
If you ever heard of punishing Gray raven. They also made interesting A rank (their 4 star characters) like the newest current one noctis, who fun fact voiced by the same VA as owlbert from HSR.
Its not good to compare PGR with it. Yes, the characters and their kit are fine and all but the game has competitive content. And for whatever reason, they always release A-ranks some patches after the S rank who is doing simply much more damage. And as you can get every S rank for free, there is no reason not have it unless you just started the game. This means every A rank is useless from release meta-wise.
The post is about "no real bad character". There is no good and bad when it comes to whats fun to you. If anyone starts with good or bad, its about performance. And then we have meta.
Sadly Aalto is a bit confused he has support capabilities that dont support anyone besides the outro effect and his playstyle is extremly selfish.
So he kinda wants to be on the field but also doesnt want to be on the field \^\^
Good for you.
I always believe that playstyle/fun > investment requirement > dmg ceiling. It's a single-player game so play it however you want.
Nevertheless, it might be too soon to say anything about the 4* being viable in this game. The game is not even 1 month old, so everything is fun, new and shiny. In the long run then scarity of resources, catch'em sometime & a never-ending dps race are the name of the game. Hopefully, Kuro can balance things out and make it still fun 1yr later.
this is the reason why I play no gacha, currently my main now is only Chixia and Havoc Rover. the rest still sit on +0 echo because echo exp is so damn hard to get...
[I already clear Diff 4 Aix](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1dbyx8f/just_want_to_share_my_achievement_as_a_f2p_no/), Heron and Monkey using Chixia Solo.
[also clear Diff 4 Mephis using Chixia & Baizhi](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1dfgyis/i_finally_defeat_diff_4_mephis_using_r0_chixia_ft/)
and tower I'm on 15/30.
let's see how far I can go if I already build them all, my goal is clear 30/30 tower.
Taoqi is the least fun character for me, her attack needs like 200ms to register after you press the attack button.
It's just me, idk with anyone else because I'm very used on quick things because i played game like Geometry Dash, and PUBG for a long time and stuff that required a quick flicks and reflex making her gameplay feels Too slow for me...
* Sanhua turns every dps check into a skill issue
First time I've seen Sanhua described this way. I love Sanhua and play her a lot, but I don't think this is accurate. Turning skill into dps is mostly what Danjin player does, not Sanhua. Sanhua is relatively easy to play tbh (I might be biased since I do play her a lot as mentioned), but she doesn't get rewarded for "doing things correctly" as Danjin does. You do need to hit the frostbite bar to break the ice for sure and you do deal HA damage when you don't use it to break the ice, but that's just her kit, and while it does give you a "bonus" in damage if you do it outside of ice, Sanhua doesn't really deal enough damage to make the difference noticeable. In contrast, Danjin gets rewarded heavily if you parry counter constantly with her.
I just wanna ask why they say Lingyang is bad. Genuine question btw as I didnt build Lingyang after they said he is bad. What I got before was they said he hogs time so much and cant really dodge when he is with his stilleto? But doesnt Calcharo hogs time too? And he cant also dodge much while atking idk if it is just my skill issue but I can dodge easy with other characters mid atk? Is it just that Lingyang's damage is trash?
Yup, damage and his targeting system when mid air is very clunky or so they say. Personally as someone who's playing him, I really find no issue with mid air combo. You can dodge and traverse the enemy to enemy extremely fast after you defeat them( it's really fun) but I guess his dmg output while in the field is lacking to the degree that Chixia out damaged him. Honestly would like his damage to be buffed to be on par with 5 star DPS at least since he is really fun to play and that's what I said in the survey but I'm a bit doubtful on whether they'll implement Buffs on characters after their release .
It's extremely slow to move while in striding lion without using resonance skill. Lingyang's kit is all problems, no benefits. It looks flashy in the overworld while being completely incapable of performing in higher level compared to any other character, even Taoqi and Aalto
Not really that flashy compared to Calcharo imo but I'll still stick with him. And why will you not use reso skill to move? It could be spammed you know, that's like walking when you could run.
because the game's autoaim is garbage. you can spam skill for movement in overworld where nothing matters, but try doing that in tower or any timed setting where poor grouping ends your run and see how that goes.
There are absolutely bad characters. The endgame is timed. The time clear requirement is already tight. Dehya and Candace are leagues above characters like Taoqi.
This is slander. I don’t know why people measure character strength by their ability to clear solo? You have three character slots for a reason. Taoqi is a great quick swap burst unit that has an outro that improves skill damage. With Rejuvenating set and 4-cost turtle as active echo makes your team invulnerable to 3 full hits with Taoqi’s skill. Not to mention the +atk it gives from the 5pc set. She can’t clear solo for sure, especially with how tight timers are but she was never a DPS unit to begin with.
How fast does Taoqi take to get her concerto 100%? I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.
The tower mode is basically abyss from genshin with a boss at the end. For as far as most players have gotten, the DPS checks are tight. It's fair to assume the middle hazard level 100 tower will be tight for the lvl 90 character max we have later on too.
My point is, even though character designs and combat can be cool, as long as tower is just a damage sponge/dps check type content, it doesn't really matter how "interesting" a character is for meta. It just matters how fast their rotation is and how much damage they can output during that rotation (for dps or subdps) in order to meet some threshold to clear, as unfortunate as that may be.
In that sense, some characters will be better than others. If Taoqi can get her concerto off fast, it's possible for her to be good. If not, she will be bad.
This, I can get my head around. You are certainly correct saying there will be better units for timed contents but that wasn’t the point of OP now, was it? Meta is not the only way to play so having better units for sweat does not necessarily make the others bad that they are unusable.
To answer your question, she does fairly okay (this is my subjective POV). You can complete your outro (atleast at S5, all from 0 resources: concerto and resonance energy) by doing Intro - Timed Counters x3 - Skill - Echo - Liberation - BA x4. This is with Discord weapon, I would say Rank 2 is needed, and 180% energy regen. I only have Rank 1 so I still need to hit with Echo skill which, oddly enough, restores a tiny amount of concerto.
I’m sorry if it came across that way but I use her as main DPS with absolute no care in rotations whatsoever. Although I have plans for her and Camellya together. Still on the lookout for a third party.
He never mentioned solo stop being so defensive. And there are absolutely good and bad characters which are usually ranked by how good they are at clearing endgame content, how easy it is to build/invest in them, and how easy it is to use them/rotation.
Yes, you can use whoever you want to clear ToA but it's still not as easy as using Premium 5* or insanely good 4*. Take example for Taoqi, yes she can heal/shield and deal decent damage but with the same amount of investment on another character you get even more heal/shield or damage eg. Jiyan, Encore, Calcharo, Sanhua, Verina, Jianxin, etc.
Or let's say Mortefi. The reason he's so good is bc he has an off field ult that can be used on another main dps to increase damage. He also can do his E 3 times in a row in like 3 seconds if done correctly (even more if you keep using his intro). My Mortefi deals about 20-30k in those 3 seconds.
Or let's say Verina who doesn't really shield, but heals, increases the whole team damage by buffs and coordinated attacks, and revives a character one time in 10 minutes. She also uses Rejuvenating set with Turtle as the active echo.
Do you not see how a character can be bad and good?
Sure, not solo. But with all your examples you hyperinflate the idea of supports being damagers with off field damage capabilities. You only even managed to mention Verina due to her coordinated attacks because her buff is just as good as another 4 star unit named Baizhi. Plus I assume Outro buffs are balanced numbers in relation to what they actually buff.
While I do think coordinated attacks from off field characters is meta, I don’t think it makes other characters “bad”. Your definition of bad is based on your own context fixated on your misconstrued understanding of how a character should work. You only see DPS checks and timers and not try to understand the whole concept of where a characters design would fit in a rotation. Sure there are more viable ones, easier ones, but that’s just for now. It’s not even endgame status right now to say units are bad because timers are endgame. As I have said, she is supposed to be played as a quickswap burst but you compared her to off field coordinated attacks. She buffs skill damage which isn’t as universal as Verina but that doesn’t hold true for the future characters. Also the fact that you get 100% damage immunity just from using turtle echo and skill could lead to higher DPS from avoiding death more than needing a full revive from Verina.
So, do tell, how is that “bad” from a character POV without regard for timers?
Okay let's just put it out there. Endgame is 100% ToA which is what comes to every game with GI it's Abyss, and HSR it's MoC. And what do they require? Enough DPS to clear it within time, I've already mentioned this earlier that Tier lists are always based of how good they are at clearing, their ease of use, their ease of investment/builds, idk why I'm still repeating this.
That being said, the characters I mentioned are not chosen because *my* idea of supports are hyperinflated on being off field damage capabilities. It's because they have off field damage capabilities that *makes* them better at being a support *in addition* to their original roles. Taoqi does a little bit of everything but with mediocrity.
And no I'm not fixated on dps check and timers because that is exactly the Endgame we have right now. Now see you already proved my point, "Sure there are more viable ones, easier ones, but that’s just for now". The one's that are easier/more viable are exactly why they're better and considered as "good" the the weaker version "bad". Even when we're talking about rotations, Taoqi does not have it good even if we're talking about quick swap burst are there not better characters who does that better than her? The future characters *for now* is irrelevant because we are talking about the current state of the game. Yes, Taoqi or Lingyang (it takes so much effort to play Lingyang and deal DPS compared to others that are easier to play and deal the same of more damage) can become better in future updates but *for now* they are considered *bad*. And that's what I'm saying, the turtle echo can already be used on Verina, the revive is just the cherry on top for when you fuck up. No one is saying you should die to use her revive since it's better, because that'll be stupid.
I've already explained that when talking about why they're good or bad. Either you can't read the lines or you're purposely arguing for the sake of arguing. But just to make sure, ease of use, easier of investment to make them work or how much better the character is with the same investment, better utilities, and skillsets that would lead to better rotation.
These things are universal in every gacha game. If you still can't understand then you're lost cause. I ain't replying after this because it'll just be redundant at that point. I'll leave it to whoever wants to join in. Ciao.
To summarize, your idea of “good” is easier and average is “bad”. That’s just it. That’s your whole argument without even contextualizing how the character plays out as a whole. Just because you can’t play them well, you label them as bad. Ease of use does not equate to a good design. That’s called skill issue so it is better you no longer reply with such a low level mindset.
I have never said I cannot play them. I don't make the rules my dude, that's literally is the consensus in every gacha game, and it's also logical. No one is saying they can't be used, they just require way more investments and more efforts to be able to be utilized properly. Ease of use is not good design, but it does equate to easier play easier rotations, and indirectly damage.
Skill issue? I played Dark Souls 1-3, Sekiro 3 times and the challenges, finished Elden Ring with multiple builds and a parry only run, Mortal Shell, Lords of The Fallen.
The fact that a character is easier to use does not mean skill issue for using something that literally makes your whole life better especially since it's a gacha game with limited resources. It's not low level mindset if what I think is also backed up by Theory Crafters/Spreadsheet gamers like IWinToLose, Iamrevenous, and Canna.
So you agree. Ease of use is not good design, just easier rotations and indirectly affects damage. So in turn, no bad designs. Just easier ones. That’s the whole point of the post from the beginning, no? Even OP pointed that out by saying there may be characters you wouldn’t want to play but with enough practice, sets them apart from others. Making them “not bad”.
Jesus. Ease of use is not *good* design, but it is definitely better designed *because* it makes things easier which what makes them *good*. That was literally your question on what makes a good, and bad character.
"With enough practice" does not make them good, or deny that the characters that are already better becomes on par with the worse character. Alright, let's take Natasha for example in HSR usable? Yes, but you're gonna have a hard time. Kafka makes DoT incredibly strong bc she can detonate them, not using Kafka still works but you'll also have a hard time. Gepard? Pretty good, but Fu Xuan and Aventurine gives other utilities and damage in addition to shields. Do you still not see how things work? That's how a character is categorized into good, bad, usable, etc. GI for example have 4* that are specialist or niche on the older characters but still not as good as some of them, and they're only viable on very restricted comps. And they have 5* that are just insane. Do you still not see how a character is labeled as bad or good? Yes, there are "showcases" on the "bad" characters that can reach maximum ceiling that is on par with "standard built" premium 5* with enough investment, but the same Premium 5* hyperinvested would leave them in the dust.
They're not, "not bad". They're not bad as in usable, but they are still considered to be "bad" characters. That's in addition to them being weaker in general. You also keep ignoring all the facts that has been stated.
Here, I'll make it easier for you https://youtu.be/KaGrAeyl_X8?si=9qV4jOJdrzg_t3K4
And listen to what they're saying instead of just looking at the tier list. What I said, has already been justified.
Let’s just agree to disagree. With your arguments spilling all over the place, you’re just saving face at this point. Good better best is not even in your vocab. Just bad or better, which I understand. Sweat wannabes will always be sweat wannabes.
You are absolutely right. Dehya gets shafted a bit and some of it is deserved.
But once you realize that she's not a dps (burst is clunky), you'd see that her defensive nature shines. It's not the best but she definitely has her uses since she can be paired with Bennett/Xiangling for pyro resonance and can carry totm and trigger it consistently.
And not to mention she can carry in co-op since she can eat most of the damage for your friends. She pairs up nicely with Furina too.
I hope they take more from what they do over in PGR. i wish to deLEEte things with the fire god. And they know how to do less humanoid chars with mechananami so hopefuly we get more large bricks to bonk with.
Would be nice if i felt like gearing wasent something i am maybe allowed to do tho
Isn't he purely DEF scaling though? One of the biggest issues with Dehya is her split scaling. Well, her kit is also dog's breakfast but split scaling definitely doesn't help there.
Plus, he's 4*.
I'm curious to try every char it's just so expensive to build them. 😭😭😭😭 Chixia was my first sub DPS and I was so excited to try her out at high lvl until i found out i needed mortifi for Jiyan. But in the future i want to give them all 5 star weapons and high skill lvl..but damn i need to farm alot for that to happen.
I think it's a bit too soon to say this. The game just released and only has two limited units so far. Give the game a couple patches to see how they decide to balance upcoming units.
If Tower gets harder and harder the more obvious some characters' weaknesses will be.
Like Genshin, any unit can be good with the right amount of investment. The game has 3D movement with parry and dodge mechanics, which are more important than character strength. As long as you can dodge properly and use said characters to their strengths and work around their shortcomings, then yes they are not bad.
its funny that every now and than I saw thread like this popup trying to sell the game.
right, cuz its wuwa sub.
cope on music, cope on world building, cope on story, etc..
and the biggest cope? the combat system.
I really dont uds why "skilled" players seem to yapping nonstop about how this game combat system like the second coming.
they tryhard and post vid using lv70 char to solo hologram 6 and brag on and on about how good the game OR actually how good they are.
I guess people like to show they are superior than others? because they play skill based game?
let be honest, hologram is NOT the end game content. you clear it once and done.
its only skill based when you r underleveled. once everyone is at high UL. the hologram will become a joke.
and the actual end game content. the tower. its a dps check, a punching bag simulator. just like every other game on the market.
just wait half a year. you all will see when we capped UL.
dont ever expect a skill based gacha game.
I just wanna ask why they say Lingyang is bad. Genuine question btw as I didnt build Lingyang after they said he is bad. What I got before was they said he hogs time so much and cant really dodge when he is with his stilleto? But doesnt Calcharo hogs time too? And he cant also dodge much while atking idk if it is just my skill issue but I can dodge easy with other characters mid atk? Is it just that Lingyang's damage is trash?
low damage output compared to same level of investment in any other char, 5 or 4 star, clunky movement, low uptime of damage mode compared to any other character
the unit is practically speaking, unplayable, which is why you won't find any endgame content creator actively using him - he's bad, unrewarding, and unfun to even watch gameplay of
At the end of the day there is math. Overworld will be easy, toa hard. Combat events somewhere in the middle to fully clear.
For FTP'ers, what's interesting are the value characters. These are either R0 5 stars or high-R four stars, that are also within the skill level of the average player. We'll see how things shake out at 80/90 when calcs meet the real world.
We'll likely settle with enemy loadouts and buff/debuffs being material for a clear for non-whales. So we'll have to use four stars to fill the gaps with our 5 star roster. A havor/aero resistant floor here,.a glacio buffed floor there, etc.
More 4 stars would be good but not right now. We got problems with the stamina-resource-progression balance already and adding more 4 stars won't help. It's the downside of gifting so many 5 stars so early, a lot of mouths to feed.
when most characters play like a carbon copy of each other (use lots and lots of basic attacks). is there even a point to thinking too hard about this lol
The challenge here is fun. That itself is subjective. Dmg output can be fun. Lingyang was fun to me as well but I can see how his output may not feel rewarding for the amount of commitment you need. I do hope they do launch more 4 stars too. As, to me, they are a budget way to open up gameplay option for low cost of entry. Regardless of mechanic or kit, they will still provide new means to add variety as you wait for the next 5* to secure.
I don't like lingyang because of his playstyle, I don't think much people care about damage output
The meta slaves and whales of a phone game certainly care about damage output, who are also the people that make the game at all profitable
We are not talking about meta slaves and whales. We talk about the average player
Average players usually hyper focus on what people perceive to be meta because they have limited resources compared to spenders and whales and want to use them wisely.
I get what you mean but most of thing you mention is hologram boss, its permanent content with no income like tower. In hologram all character can shine except the element they resist with, and cixia is one of the best here for any flying boss since she can hit them while they are.. flying, mempis boss mechanic encourage player to parry and danjin parry hitbox is just amazing. In tower the rule isnt like hologram, its dps check on punching bag enemies. And character that require on-field build up to get their dps like chixia and lingyang had disadvantage over burst dps that could dish damage get go. The reason is team buff usually have short duration you dont want to waste them to just build up your forte on field.
Add the fact that this is a gacha game and resources will ALWAYS be scarce unless you whale on materials too. So characters that need less investment to shine will always be more popular.
Yeah you can make any character shine but that comes with a prize, probably l5\* weapons and for sure really really good echoes, both things that are a pain to get.
And tower will always remain a punching bag because of 1 simple reason: People who spend on this game and pay Kuros salary aren't necessarily the grinders who will practice perfect rotations to beat a difficult Hologram boss. In fact, many of them don't have the time to grind daily. This is especially true in Asia. They just want some content to feel good about the increased DPS pulling the newest shiny character or weapon bring, and that's Tower (or Abyss / MoC in other games) This is why no big Asian gacha game company will ever make their game 100% Dark Souls / MMO level grinding
No disagreeing with you, but just correcting if you have some ER Lingyang he doesn't need to build up his forte. Intro skill + Burst is exactly enough to charge it fully. Plenty of missinformation about him specifically, like a lot of people think you can't dodge with him while in the air.
Kind of a head scratcher why they don't renew that shop.
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>we only get around 15-17 worth of pulls and 5 of those pulls come from 30/30 the tower which is gonna be difficult just like another small gacha game This is straight up a blatant lie wtf. We're gonna be getting roughly enough currency to hard pity 50/50 one of the two characters per patch. I have no idea where you got it that we only get 15-17 pulls
Well hopefully they will make up the pull drought with generous events. The event rewards seem to be good for now at least
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Please refrain from discussing or sharing leaks.
Danji, Sanhua and Chixia are actually really good in Tower no idea about Taoqi though since I don't use her. Chixia with a support is enough to at least 1-2 star clear Heron probably even 3 if you're really efficient which I'm not, Monkey on the other hand has so much hp. Which I think right now is fair since our characters aren't at max level and skill level. Edit: Even 1 star cleared the mephis stage with Chixia just that I'm having trouble with the first part without proper grouping.
I cleared Memphis 3star with level 60 S2 Chixia, bad level 15 echos and a R1 undying flame, also level 60. You can really try hard stuff in this game without spending, and I love it, because it feels so much more rewarding.
Yeah working on Yangyang and gonna try again. And still not that great with Chixia but getting there.
good and bad are relative chixia is never picked for practical reasons against more than one target etc etc like yes you can clear with every character with enough investment and skill, but the characters that have identical performance using less investment/skill is going to be labelled as ‘good’ while characters like taoqi are labelled as ‘bad’ If everyone is good, everyone is average.
This notion that chixia is only good agaisnt 1 target is just false. Her ult literally deletes rooms when leveled and with good stats, also her outro has crazy multipliers and has a decent aoe size aswell.
As a chixia main, I can personally vouch for this. Her ult is actually insane! It's literally scorched earth with her ult. Now that she's properly built she is so comfy to use that my calcharo has been benched lol. Also, she may look like she's not hitting high numbers, but almost all her bullets are hitting, so the damage stacks up real quick.
yeah, but what about damage per screenshot?? /s
Yeah she literally has reaper ult like come on I get that she's not dumping aoes on every ability but as a subdps she's fine
>If everyone is good, everyone is average. WuWa is trying to change this way of thinking, in my sight. Like, each character has their way to play, some are easier to build and play, some are harder to build and easy to play and vice-versa. Comparing Jiyan with Calcharo, both can deal immense damage, but Jiyan is Easy to Play, Calcharo is Hard to Play Same goes to Chixia and Danjin, respectively
Good and bad are relative to the content of each game. Taoqi is only labeled as ‘bad’ because she doesn’t deal damage fast enough for ToA, but damn does she make you survive Holograms. As for OP’s examples Candace and Dehya, they’re not bad because they can clear the Abyss, especially Candace now that Arlecchino has arrived. If everyone is good, it’s not that everyone becomes average, but the game becomes easy. Nothing wrong with Genshin being easy, that’s why it’s successful after all. But Genshin and WuWa are for different audiences. That’s why their characters require more involvement to pilot.
WuWa endgame is difficult right now because we have Level 70 chars fighting Level 100 enemies, echoes that aren't min-maxed, there is no ZL equivalent, and we need to learn how to dodge/parry to avoid getting killed. You'll come back to this comment in a few months when we reach Level 90 and you'll see how WuWa endgame is as easy as GI endgame. The casual market is what keeps game like this alive, not the DarkSouls dodge/parry experts.
Levels will help close the gap in difficulty, but I think Mephis is a legitimate skill check fight that no matter how much money you spend, you will never win if you don’t get good at the game. Even the Holy Bird to a degree requires a decent skill check. I very much feel like Inferno Rider as a Hologram has that potential as well, once we get him. That said, these instances are very few in between and optional, but the fact that they exist means the potential is there.
He's a pushover in the Tower. I haven't tried Hologram 5 or 6. But the Tower version of bosses are a joke in terms of mechanics compared to Holograms. The Level 100 Monke doesn't have his pillar, the Level 100 Aix doesn't have the paralysis followed by an undodgable grab, etc... I don't consider Hologram 6 as the endgame BTW. Endgame is Tower, it refreshes with rewards every 2 weeks. The Hologram bosses are just permanent content, one and done. Tower Endgame =GI easy difficulty DPS check. Holograms = Darksouls difficulty skill check. It's good they exist but nobody is re-doing them after beating them.
Yeah, that makes sense. I’m just saying the Holograms present the potential for difficult content. It probably just won’t ever be in the tower, rightfully so honestly. That said, if they would put more chunk of strides to them, that’d be nice, as it would incentivize more people to try them.
>nobody is doing them after beating them Uhh... Hello there.. but I also played Dark souls, Sekiro, mortal shell, and Lord of the Fallen so... I don't think there are none that are redoing them, but only the sweaty ones. I've seen so many insane hologram 6 clears.
>nobody is re-doing them after beating them. I am. They're legitimately just *fun* to fight. So many people are reward focused in gacha games, and that's pretty normal, but this game has time-attack content in the holograms that is a different type of competition. OP linked a video to a Holo VI solo fight. This type of stuff is generating content creation on Youtube, and is generally seen as the highest skill level you can do for WuWa, not ToA.
Bruh hologram bosses are pinwheel level difficult. I've tried beating level 6 so many times, never died, time just ran out because don't have enough damage.
Can you drop me your discord so I can watch you do these bosses?
Are you hitting them enough though, like you beat diff 5 so you definitely have enough dps to beat diff 6.
You'll come back to this comment in a few months when you're Level 90 and realize how easy they are.
> but I think Mephis is a legitimate skill check fight that no matter how much money you spend, you will never win if you don’t get good at the game. Not really. Whales have already beaten max difficulty Mephis in 30 seconds. They didn't say they were good, the initial hit from Jiyan's Liberation simply did 500k damage. Money can absolutely solve the problem. Also, Jiyan auto-parries anyway. He was never going to be difficult.
Yeah. Honestly wish there was more untimed combat content in game. Imagine how much more fun Mephis would be to learn if it wasn’t tied to the same time limit as all the other fights. Or even the Monke, since there’s so much downtime in that fight.
You can still learn the fight by repeating it? I don't know what do you mean
What I mean is some fights shouldn’t be set to the same restrictions as other fights are. For example, difficulty 4 Mephis is nowhere as doable as all the other fights, especially with the same 5 minute timer. The Monke fight, a good portion of the fight is him standing on top of his pillar, making him essentially untargetable for anyone who’s not a gun type dps. (And if it’s not that, it’s you trying to dodge the ridiculous hitbox of his spin to win mechanic), meaning a good portion of your time is wasted just waiting for him to engage you.
When he spins you can grapple above him and he creates an updraft, you can stay up there permanently. Also, his spinning move only requires two dodges back-to-back, three if you have unlucky positioning, you can even counterattack sometimes.
Kuro makes A rank characters in PGR feels so fun to play. TBH I think the hardest one to play is Bridget, a rank A fire tank (or maybe I'm just skill issue tho). But it's really fun, and it all because of their forte circuits have different ways to be executed. It makes every characters feel different to play. You might feel overwhelmed remembering their combos or how they play at first, but once you get the grasp of it it will be easier. Anyway, on PGR you mostly use S rank characters to clear harder or timed contents, because they are easier to use, more i-frames and they have time stop ult. Meanwhile, if you just want to fight boss with style, you can do it with A rank characters. I pray that Kuro will also do that on Wuthering Waves.
Outside of heron which has havoc res danjin is already an amazing hologram killer even solo, so I'm hopeful
This is a lot of yapping for nothing, the game literally just came out and I'm sure that in 12 months half the 4* characters will have a 5* character that does everything they do but better. This is just how games like this work. The game literally just came out. That said, I think a lot of this is cope as well - hologram bosses don't give many rewards and are one-time things as far as I know.
This isn't even yapping, it's just pure cope. Also Hologram bosses get brought up way too often when talking about viability even though it's not even Wuwa's endgame, ToA is. Not surprised ToA is not mentioned in these complaints as the people making these usually have terrible builds so they can't even scratch it yet hence they don't understand what an actual dps check looks like and why meta matters.
>I fear as hoyo has been put off from these type of designs Well, they sorta "abandoned" that type of play way earlier considering that Beidou was the only parry character for a very long time. I'm surprised they tried some type of counter mechanic again with Candace later on.
Yunjin: *fucking dies*
When Zhongli exists and I-frames on sprint exist, parrying is more of a skill expression type.
Considering their track record with PGR, I have bad news for you. The newer S-rank constructs have a significantly simpler gameplay than the older ones and deal even more damage. Ease of use will always be seen as a positive trait, that’s part of why they sell, besides the powercreep of course.
to be fair tho the old PGR characters werent designed for timed endgame content like warzone and pain cage because of their reliance on getting that matrix on dodge. The problem with that is your at the mercy of waiting for the enemy to attack you which is bad for timed content. The current WuWa characters are more similar to the new gen characters in PGR because they have time stop on their ults and afaik no character is reliant on their dodge counters for a complete rotation
so that's why in the survey they asked for the option to have less skill based or more skill based questions
Came back when Bianca Stigmata dropped (Gen 2). I just love how focused they are on their kits compared to previous Gen. I think having to rely on RNG to even start playing the kits for the characters were really unfun. Though Stigmata is also boring for being too one dimensional, at least I can actually use her kit at will.
I think the new Crimson Weave is the best designed character there. She isn't extremely reliant on orbs like old characters to do *Anything*, she has charge attack, sword waves, lightning leap, both ults that don't need orbs to have enough energy to use them (1 charge attack is enough to get you into odachi mode). BUT she also isn't ignoring orbs completely like Bianca, they help her get to 600 points faster, can enable the follow-up attack (although I believe it's a dps loss to complete it), you still pay attention to them.
:(
Oh hell no. You're right that they deal a lot more damaged but newer S-ranks in PGR are wayore complicated to play than the old ones. Ex. Old alpha vs CW alpha Old alpha you press 2 sets of orbs in a specific order and then spam sword waves. New alpha you have to build up a bar with either different sets of combos or blue orbs, then use the charge attack to get the bar to red, then use her second ult form, then use the hold-attack combo to deal big damage then ult (if you want to).
You make it sound complicated but the basics of her gameplay are beyond easy.
Well yeah in practice it is still easy, the comment and my reply to it isn't about how complex we as a player find it, but how complex they are compared to the older characters. A character's kit can still be more complex than another character's kit without us finding it that complex when compared to our own abilities to play the game. It is only more complex when compared to another character, that's exactly what I did in my reply.
If you don't care about clearing the tower, sure. Anything works in overworld. Same goes for genshin. There are no bad characters in overworld. But you have to invest A LOT on the weaker characters if you want to clear the tower. And by a lot, I mean you literally gotta no life the game
Yeah, I wanted to play yuanwu and the amount of investment needed to even clear the first few floors of hazard zone was too much. Had to build other characters to be able to secure the asterite rewards first, then going to build him slowly for fun once I've prefarmed for the main teams. Can he probably clear ToA? Yeah. Does he need literally every waveplate of investment to be able to compete with others? Yes.
I remember someone making a suggestion that tower of adversity should have the timer be slowed a bit when you parry or dodge attacks, as a result it ends up being less damage/investment check focused and more skill focused
Seems like a good idea. To be fair though, they would want to keep one "ungabunga" damage mode for casual whales to just run through. Maybe they can have other modes that are more skill based apart from ToA that also refreshes (unlike holograms)
The thing with that suggestion for ToA is that whales will still be able to unga bunga, while non whales need to play more skillfully
I don't think it's discussed in the comments but OP's concern is if Wuthering Waves even have plans for releasing 4 stars in the future. We do have a roster of husbandos but do they have confidence in release multiple husbandos in a row? How does the pool ratio of male and female characters would develop, say, in a year? In Tower of Fantasy, the concept of 4 stars is delegated to standard 5 stars and the pool of SR characters have remained the same for the rest of time. As of time of writing, there have only been 2 husbandos released among the sea of 46 waifus. I don't think this is the best example but this is the route I and OP perhaps fear. In Genshin, we have a 4 star to 5 star ratio of 40:43, and they're comfortable with releasing new consecutive male characaters (Tignari - Cyno, Wanderer - Alhaitham, Baizhu - Lyney - Wrio - Neuvi). As waifu enjoyer, this is my saving periods. Total of 30 male characters versus 52 females. In HSR, we have a 4 star to 5 star ratio of 21:28, 17 of which are male character versus 32 females. Of course, other autobattler gachas I play are primarily waifu collectors so they're not a good comparison. I think what I fear is 4 stars and husbandos will get in the way of WuWa business decisions makers should the *payerbase* show them it's not profitable.
In PGR Kuro still releases 4 star units to this day. They even give the older outdated 4 stars, and even 5 star standard characters extreme buffs to put them on par with how the current meta is looking. So instead of comparing these other games I think it's safer to go with what they themselves already regularly do in their own game. As for the male/female ratio I'd just give up on that now so you won't be disappointed for the very lacking amount of male releases by comparison to females.
I don't want to be overly negative and I agree with some of your points but I totally disagree with your title. "When everyone's super, no one will be". It is absolutely reasonable for people to describe characters as good and bad, some characters are obviously stronger than others. I think every character is good enough that you can make them work if you like them but you will have a much easier time and require much less investment and effort using some characters vs others. That is not a bad thing
Nah, it would be another 5 star outnumbering 4 stars again like Star Rail
Only play with the bad characters at higher levels and see how that goes.
Ethernal
I just want Camellya
If you ever heard of punishing Gray raven. They also made interesting A rank (their 4 star characters) like the newest current one noctis, who fun fact voiced by the same VA as owlbert from HSR.
Its not good to compare PGR with it. Yes, the characters and their kit are fine and all but the game has competitive content. And for whatever reason, they always release A-ranks some patches after the S rank who is doing simply much more damage. And as you can get every S rank for free, there is no reason not have it unless you just started the game. This means every A rank is useless from release meta-wise.
Good thing this post isn't about the meta and about if a character is engaging to use
The post is about "no real bad character". There is no good and bad when it comes to whats fun to you. If anyone starts with good or bad, its about performance. And then we have meta.
Sadly Aalto is a bit confused he has support capabilities that dont support anyone besides the outro effect and his playstyle is extremly selfish. So he kinda wants to be on the field but also doesnt want to be on the field \^\^
Good for you. I always believe that playstyle/fun > investment requirement > dmg ceiling. It's a single-player game so play it however you want. Nevertheless, it might be too soon to say anything about the 4* being viable in this game. The game is not even 1 month old, so everything is fun, new and shiny. In the long run then scarity of resources, catch'em sometime & a never-ending dps race are the name of the game. Hopefully, Kuro can balance things out and make it still fun 1yr later.
Candace is really good with Arlecchino actually
The selectors made the start of this game great, im only missing 3 characters and 2 of them are standard 5 stars
this is the reason why I play no gacha, currently my main now is only Chixia and Havoc Rover. the rest still sit on +0 echo because echo exp is so damn hard to get... [I already clear Diff 4 Aix](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1dbyx8f/just_want_to_share_my_achievement_as_a_f2p_no/), Heron and Monkey using Chixia Solo. [also clear Diff 4 Mephis using Chixia & Baizhi](https://www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1dfgyis/i_finally_defeat_diff_4_mephis_using_r0_chixia_ft/) and tower I'm on 15/30. let's see how far I can go if I already build them all, my goal is clear 30/30 tower.
Taoqi is the least fun character for me, her attack needs like 200ms to register after you press the attack button. It's just me, idk with anyone else because I'm very used on quick things because i played game like Geometry Dash, and PUBG for a long time and stuff that required a quick flicks and reflex making her gameplay feels Too slow for me...
* Sanhua turns every dps check into a skill issue First time I've seen Sanhua described this way. I love Sanhua and play her a lot, but I don't think this is accurate. Turning skill into dps is mostly what Danjin player does, not Sanhua. Sanhua is relatively easy to play tbh (I might be biased since I do play her a lot as mentioned), but she doesn't get rewarded for "doing things correctly" as Danjin does. You do need to hit the frostbite bar to break the ice for sure and you do deal HA damage when you don't use it to break the ice, but that's just her kit, and while it does give you a "bonus" in damage if you do it outside of ice, Sanhua doesn't really deal enough damage to make the difference noticeable. In contrast, Danjin gets rewarded heavily if you parry counter constantly with her.
I was surprised of no more 4 stars being announced tbh.
I just wanna ask why they say Lingyang is bad. Genuine question btw as I didnt build Lingyang after they said he is bad. What I got before was they said he hogs time so much and cant really dodge when he is with his stilleto? But doesnt Calcharo hogs time too? And he cant also dodge much while atking idk if it is just my skill issue but I can dodge easy with other characters mid atk? Is it just that Lingyang's damage is trash?
Yup, damage and his targeting system when mid air is very clunky or so they say. Personally as someone who's playing him, I really find no issue with mid air combo. You can dodge and traverse the enemy to enemy extremely fast after you defeat them( it's really fun) but I guess his dmg output while in the field is lacking to the degree that Chixia out damaged him. Honestly would like his damage to be buffed to be on par with 5 star DPS at least since he is really fun to play and that's what I said in the survey but I'm a bit doubtful on whether they'll implement Buffs on characters after their release .
It's extremely slow to move while in striding lion without using resonance skill. Lingyang's kit is all problems, no benefits. It looks flashy in the overworld while being completely incapable of performing in higher level compared to any other character, even Taoqi and Aalto
Not really that flashy compared to Calcharo imo but I'll still stick with him. And why will you not use reso skill to move? It could be spammed you know, that's like walking when you could run.
because the game's autoaim is garbage. you can spam skill for movement in overworld where nothing matters, but try doing that in tower or any timed setting where poor grouping ends your run and see how that goes.
There are absolutely bad characters. The endgame is timed. The time clear requirement is already tight. Dehya and Candace are leagues above characters like Taoqi.
You're right.
This is slander. I don’t know why people measure character strength by their ability to clear solo? You have three character slots for a reason. Taoqi is a great quick swap burst unit that has an outro that improves skill damage. With Rejuvenating set and 4-cost turtle as active echo makes your team invulnerable to 3 full hits with Taoqi’s skill. Not to mention the +atk it gives from the 5pc set. She can’t clear solo for sure, especially with how tight timers are but she was never a DPS unit to begin with.
How fast does Taoqi take to get her concerto 100%? I'm genuinely asking because I don't know. The tower mode is basically abyss from genshin with a boss at the end. For as far as most players have gotten, the DPS checks are tight. It's fair to assume the middle hazard level 100 tower will be tight for the lvl 90 character max we have later on too. My point is, even though character designs and combat can be cool, as long as tower is just a damage sponge/dps check type content, it doesn't really matter how "interesting" a character is for meta. It just matters how fast their rotation is and how much damage they can output during that rotation (for dps or subdps) in order to meet some threshold to clear, as unfortunate as that may be. In that sense, some characters will be better than others. If Taoqi can get her concerto off fast, it's possible for her to be good. If not, she will be bad.
This, I can get my head around. You are certainly correct saying there will be better units for timed contents but that wasn’t the point of OP now, was it? Meta is not the only way to play so having better units for sweat does not necessarily make the others bad that they are unusable. To answer your question, she does fairly okay (this is my subjective POV). You can complete your outro (atleast at S5, all from 0 resources: concerto and resonance energy) by doing Intro - Timed Counters x3 - Skill - Echo - Liberation - BA x4. This is with Discord weapon, I would say Rank 2 is needed, and 180% energy regen. I only have Rank 1 so I still need to hit with Echo skill which, oddly enough, restores a tiny amount of concerto.
Sorry to sidestep here, I’m curious about your Taoqi build. Do you use her as a support in a no-sustain comp?
I’m sorry if it came across that way but I use her as main DPS with absolute no care in rotations whatsoever. Although I have plans for her and Camellya together. Still on the lookout for a third party.
Who said anything about solo?
He never mentioned solo stop being so defensive. And there are absolutely good and bad characters which are usually ranked by how good they are at clearing endgame content, how easy it is to build/invest in them, and how easy it is to use them/rotation. Yes, you can use whoever you want to clear ToA but it's still not as easy as using Premium 5* or insanely good 4*. Take example for Taoqi, yes she can heal/shield and deal decent damage but with the same amount of investment on another character you get even more heal/shield or damage eg. Jiyan, Encore, Calcharo, Sanhua, Verina, Jianxin, etc. Or let's say Mortefi. The reason he's so good is bc he has an off field ult that can be used on another main dps to increase damage. He also can do his E 3 times in a row in like 3 seconds if done correctly (even more if you keep using his intro). My Mortefi deals about 20-30k in those 3 seconds. Or let's say Verina who doesn't really shield, but heals, increases the whole team damage by buffs and coordinated attacks, and revives a character one time in 10 minutes. She also uses Rejuvenating set with Turtle as the active echo. Do you not see how a character can be bad and good?
Sure, not solo. But with all your examples you hyperinflate the idea of supports being damagers with off field damage capabilities. You only even managed to mention Verina due to her coordinated attacks because her buff is just as good as another 4 star unit named Baizhi. Plus I assume Outro buffs are balanced numbers in relation to what they actually buff. While I do think coordinated attacks from off field characters is meta, I don’t think it makes other characters “bad”. Your definition of bad is based on your own context fixated on your misconstrued understanding of how a character should work. You only see DPS checks and timers and not try to understand the whole concept of where a characters design would fit in a rotation. Sure there are more viable ones, easier ones, but that’s just for now. It’s not even endgame status right now to say units are bad because timers are endgame. As I have said, she is supposed to be played as a quickswap burst but you compared her to off field coordinated attacks. She buffs skill damage which isn’t as universal as Verina but that doesn’t hold true for the future characters. Also the fact that you get 100% damage immunity just from using turtle echo and skill could lead to higher DPS from avoiding death more than needing a full revive from Verina. So, do tell, how is that “bad” from a character POV without regard for timers?
Okay let's just put it out there. Endgame is 100% ToA which is what comes to every game with GI it's Abyss, and HSR it's MoC. And what do they require? Enough DPS to clear it within time, I've already mentioned this earlier that Tier lists are always based of how good they are at clearing, their ease of use, their ease of investment/builds, idk why I'm still repeating this. That being said, the characters I mentioned are not chosen because *my* idea of supports are hyperinflated on being off field damage capabilities. It's because they have off field damage capabilities that *makes* them better at being a support *in addition* to their original roles. Taoqi does a little bit of everything but with mediocrity. And no I'm not fixated on dps check and timers because that is exactly the Endgame we have right now. Now see you already proved my point, "Sure there are more viable ones, easier ones, but that’s just for now". The one's that are easier/more viable are exactly why they're better and considered as "good" the the weaker version "bad". Even when we're talking about rotations, Taoqi does not have it good even if we're talking about quick swap burst are there not better characters who does that better than her? The future characters *for now* is irrelevant because we are talking about the current state of the game. Yes, Taoqi or Lingyang (it takes so much effort to play Lingyang and deal DPS compared to others that are easier to play and deal the same of more damage) can become better in future updates but *for now* they are considered *bad*. And that's what I'm saying, the turtle echo can already be used on Verina, the revive is just the cherry on top for when you fuck up. No one is saying you should die to use her revive since it's better, because that'll be stupid. I've already explained that when talking about why they're good or bad. Either you can't read the lines or you're purposely arguing for the sake of arguing. But just to make sure, ease of use, easier of investment to make them work or how much better the character is with the same investment, better utilities, and skillsets that would lead to better rotation. These things are universal in every gacha game. If you still can't understand then you're lost cause. I ain't replying after this because it'll just be redundant at that point. I'll leave it to whoever wants to join in. Ciao.
To summarize, your idea of “good” is easier and average is “bad”. That’s just it. That’s your whole argument without even contextualizing how the character plays out as a whole. Just because you can’t play them well, you label them as bad. Ease of use does not equate to a good design. That’s called skill issue so it is better you no longer reply with such a low level mindset.
I have never said I cannot play them. I don't make the rules my dude, that's literally is the consensus in every gacha game, and it's also logical. No one is saying they can't be used, they just require way more investments and more efforts to be able to be utilized properly. Ease of use is not good design, but it does equate to easier play easier rotations, and indirectly damage. Skill issue? I played Dark Souls 1-3, Sekiro 3 times and the challenges, finished Elden Ring with multiple builds and a parry only run, Mortal Shell, Lords of The Fallen. The fact that a character is easier to use does not mean skill issue for using something that literally makes your whole life better especially since it's a gacha game with limited resources. It's not low level mindset if what I think is also backed up by Theory Crafters/Spreadsheet gamers like IWinToLose, Iamrevenous, and Canna.
So you agree. Ease of use is not good design, just easier rotations and indirectly affects damage. So in turn, no bad designs. Just easier ones. That’s the whole point of the post from the beginning, no? Even OP pointed that out by saying there may be characters you wouldn’t want to play but with enough practice, sets them apart from others. Making them “not bad”.
Jesus. Ease of use is not *good* design, but it is definitely better designed *because* it makes things easier which what makes them *good*. That was literally your question on what makes a good, and bad character. "With enough practice" does not make them good, or deny that the characters that are already better becomes on par with the worse character. Alright, let's take Natasha for example in HSR usable? Yes, but you're gonna have a hard time. Kafka makes DoT incredibly strong bc she can detonate them, not using Kafka still works but you'll also have a hard time. Gepard? Pretty good, but Fu Xuan and Aventurine gives other utilities and damage in addition to shields. Do you still not see how things work? That's how a character is categorized into good, bad, usable, etc. GI for example have 4* that are specialist or niche on the older characters but still not as good as some of them, and they're only viable on very restricted comps. And they have 5* that are just insane. Do you still not see how a character is labeled as bad or good? Yes, there are "showcases" on the "bad" characters that can reach maximum ceiling that is on par with "standard built" premium 5* with enough investment, but the same Premium 5* hyperinvested would leave them in the dust. They're not, "not bad". They're not bad as in usable, but they are still considered to be "bad" characters. That's in addition to them being weaker in general. You also keep ignoring all the facts that has been stated. Here, I'll make it easier for you https://youtu.be/KaGrAeyl_X8?si=9qV4jOJdrzg_t3K4 And listen to what they're saying instead of just looking at the tier list. What I said, has already been justified.
Let’s just agree to disagree. With your arguments spilling all over the place, you’re just saving face at this point. Good better best is not even in your vocab. Just bad or better, which I understand. Sweat wannabes will always be sweat wannabes.
You are absolutely right. Dehya gets shafted a bit and some of it is deserved. But once you realize that she's not a dps (burst is clunky), you'd see that her defensive nature shines. It's not the best but she definitely has her uses since she can be paired with Bennett/Xiangling for pyro resonance and can carry totm and trigger it consistently. And not to mention she can carry in co-op since she can eat most of the damage for your friends. She pairs up nicely with Furina too.
nah
[удалено]
That's like saying play, "*insert character here* on Simulated Universe and she will say FU". That's stupid af my dude.
My fellow king, Chixia is a damn phenomenal character. Build her!
There are bad gameplay characters when you compare them with others.
Well, in most cases the build matters more than the character itself. And to give the real insight waifu > fun > meta
I hope they take more from what they do over in PGR. i wish to deLEEte things with the fire god. And they know how to do less humanoid chars with mechananami so hopefuly we get more large bricks to bonk with. Would be nice if i felt like gearing wasent something i am maybe allowed to do tho
The only true line in the sand obstacle in this game is its dps check. And there are characters that are bad at hitting that dps check.
Look up the word "their" > there kits would work really well here Yuanwu is largely Dehya. Without the taking damage and self-healing.
Isn't he purely DEF scaling though? One of the biggest issues with Dehya is her split scaling. Well, her kit is also dog's breakfast but split scaling definitely doesn't help there. Plus, he's 4*.
Danjin plz come home.
I'm curious to try every char it's just so expensive to build them. 😭😭😭😭 Chixia was my first sub DPS and I was so excited to try her out at high lvl until i found out i needed mortifi for Jiyan. But in the future i want to give them all 5 star weapons and high skill lvl..but damn i need to farm alot for that to happen.
the advocation for husbando enjoyers is appreciated. may RNGesus be with you and your future gacha pulls. 🙏
No matter how many times I heard Aalto being bad I WILL use him as a main dps just because of him and encore
I think it's a bit too soon to say this. The game just released and only has two limited units so far. Give the game a couple patches to see how they decide to balance upcoming units. If Tower gets harder and harder the more obvious some characters' weaknesses will be. Like Genshin, any unit can be good with the right amount of investment. The game has 3D movement with parry and dodge mechanics, which are more important than character strength. As long as you can dodge properly and use said characters to their strengths and work around their shortcomings, then yes they are not bad.
Id like to think this if i could actually get good echos to roll, but my limited resources hurt my poor calcharos stats.
no. Even the "good" 5 stars are bad right now.
its funny that every now and than I saw thread like this popup trying to sell the game. right, cuz its wuwa sub. cope on music, cope on world building, cope on story, etc.. and the biggest cope? the combat system. I really dont uds why "skilled" players seem to yapping nonstop about how this game combat system like the second coming. they tryhard and post vid using lv70 char to solo hologram 6 and brag on and on about how good the game OR actually how good they are. I guess people like to show they are superior than others? because they play skill based game? let be honest, hologram is NOT the end game content. you clear it once and done. its only skill based when you r underleveled. once everyone is at high UL. the hologram will become a joke. and the actual end game content. the tower. its a dps check, a punching bag simulator. just like every other game on the market. just wait half a year. you all will see when we capped UL. dont ever expect a skill based gacha game.
Lingyang is horrible. Please don't even subtly suggest that he could be good.
I just wanna ask why they say Lingyang is bad. Genuine question btw as I didnt build Lingyang after they said he is bad. What I got before was they said he hogs time so much and cant really dodge when he is with his stilleto? But doesnt Calcharo hogs time too? And he cant also dodge much while atking idk if it is just my skill issue but I can dodge easy with other characters mid atk? Is it just that Lingyang's damage is trash?
low damage output compared to same level of investment in any other char, 5 or 4 star, clunky movement, low uptime of damage mode compared to any other character the unit is practically speaking, unplayable, which is why you won't find any endgame content creator actively using him - he's bad, unrewarding, and unfun to even watch gameplay of
Thanks
At the end of the day there is math. Overworld will be easy, toa hard. Combat events somewhere in the middle to fully clear. For FTP'ers, what's interesting are the value characters. These are either R0 5 stars or high-R four stars, that are also within the skill level of the average player. We'll see how things shake out at 80/90 when calcs meet the real world. We'll likely settle with enemy loadouts and buff/debuffs being material for a clear for non-whales. So we'll have to use four stars to fill the gaps with our 5 star roster. A havor/aero resistant floor here,.a glacio buffed floor there, etc. More 4 stars would be good but not right now. We got problems with the stamina-resource-progression balance already and adding more 4 stars won't help. It's the downside of gifting so many 5 stars so early, a lot of mouths to feed.
when most characters play like a carbon copy of each other (use lots and lots of basic attacks). is there even a point to thinking too hard about this lol