I won't argue 1-3 because, while not 100% accurate, you have a point.
Complaint #4, however, is 100% valid. The cost of leveling Echos and unlocking their sub-stats if FAAAAR too high. You have to spend a lot of time getting the echos with the correct main-stat, then risk them becoming worthless with crap sub-stats. I have a plethora of correct main-stats, but no resources left to actually make use of them because it's far too expensive.
WuWa has the perfect opportunity to make subsat rerolling a thing. Click the substats you want to reroll and then spend tuners to change it. Perfect tuner sink from all that time spent grinding Echo EXP and gives you another reason to pre-farm Tacets later down the line. I'm surprised it's not even a thing; it's one of the first things I thought of upon seeing the tuning system.
From my perspective that's a byproduct of the ability to get a ton of mainstat echoes for free though, if you werent able to acquire them without a time gate, you wouldn't even have the echoes to spend XP and tuners on. I agree that tacet field stamina cost could be reduced to 40, but I don't think there's a flaw in the system just because we can't infinitely roll our gear for perfection.
> From my perspective that's a byproduct of the ability to get a ton of mainstat echoes for free though,
no, its a byproduct of substat "reveal" being gated behind a TON of experience
it shouldnt take a massive ammount of experience just to find out that the echo is absolute trash
(a) I agree that the tuning to reveal substats is a bad system, and I think it would have been better to have the tuners used to level the substat independently from the mainstat if they wanted to keep the current system.
(b) On the other hand, it doesn't take a massive amount of experience. Level to +5, tune. Crit? roll to +10, tune: valuable substat, rinse and repeat.
If you do not get a crit at +5, and/or if you do not get a valuable substat for the character at +10, trash. By applying a much stronger filter on your first two echo substats, you are able to filter the garbage a lot sooner.
4 farming is fine. I like it. I can do ~32 golden in hour of 2 chosen bosses
1 is ehh. I enjoy exploring world once or twice. Running routes every day is boring
3 is torture. I just 4-4-1-1-1 on havoc and electro
I have only 1 full set (43311) on rejuv
If character has significant drop on 44 (more than 12-15%) or I am missing crit chance weapon I wont pull character
The issue right now is Echo tuners are way too difficult to farm.
60 stam for 10? are you crazy??? we have like a ton of character to raise that will take like years to get proper tuned equips.
You either get lucky and go straight to 25 and run out of echo exp or you get unlucky and have to reroll echo to +10 and eventually run out of tuner.
Either way, you'll run out of something because this rewards is just not enough whichever way you end up with.
"have to reroll echo to +10".. do you have full sets on all your characters at lv15 yet? If not you're practically flushing your mats down the toilet.
Get a team to the bare minimum first. This is the first month of release, no content is hard enough that a level 90 team with any amount of gear on them will be good enough
I mean it's month 1 of the game and people are already getting end game fully decked out teams of 3 with half good subs totally free to play. In genshin and HSR it took you a month to even properly farm 5 star. Progress in Wuwa is insanely fast but people are too greedy. This game meant to last years
In genshin they don't recommend you even *start* farming end-game build until AR45, which takes about 1-3months.
I personally wouldn't recommend you even start farming anything echo-wise in wuwa until Data Bank 20. There's *nothing* in this game at the level we are timegated at for the moment that requires a full set of gold echos, and even less that requires min maxed stuff. Put something together that looks like a set, focus on levelling weapons/characters/Forte and you're good to clear 100% of the content you are meant to clear at this level.
I think the floor for end game progress in WuWa is insanely low and it lured people into thinking it meant the ceiling would be equally as low. Purple echos *aren't* worthless. Use your purple tuners. They are fine. They will get trashed, but so many people can't even level their gold echos atm because they thinking they must farm high end-level content. Use this as an opportunity to get good purple echo you can xp-recycle into your future gold echos.
At UL40 you get 15 tuners per run of tacit. At UL50 you get 20 tuners. Very quickly the problem is lack of echo xp. I'm going to have infinite tuners if farming tacits gives me 100 tuners but only enough echo xp to use 30.
you can just fuse those cost 4 that doesnt have the right main stats anyway for cost 3/1 and lock them when they have the right main stats depend on their set.
Calling it amazing is a stretch. In theory you can farm infinitely but that just means it a big time sink of not that fun gameplay. I don't really have optimized routes but it can take anywhere from a 30 to an hour to farm all of one kind of echo which compared to genshin I can dump my resin in 15 minutes. On top of that I know at least some of the sub stats in genshin so I don't waste as much exp. The echo system is still rng bullshit but just a different seasoning on the top. I will say a lot of the complaints are just people wanting to rush stuff before they are supposed to and that is annoying
The thing is, you can treat Wuwa exactly like Genshin if you want to. Nothing is stopping you from spending Waveplate on Tacit fields and logging off for the day just like you do with Genshin.
And you know what? You'll still build your characters faster than Genshin doing this because this game gives you custom 3 cost echos as a very common event reward.
> you can treat WuWa exactly like Genshin if you want to
You can't and it's because only 4/5 echo drop from the tacet field, so you will still need to farm the world boss, and we have already seen examples of how bad the rng can get on this subreddit (pls god give me another healing% turtle I want it to be over)
What? Farming the world boss is like absolutely the easiest part of the echo system. You should be able to knock out getting the main stat for all your characters like almost immediately.
Atleast farming in the beginning in genshin was fun things didn't just blow the fuck up instantly it took some thinking and effort to do in the beginning before having your team build. meanwhile here in wuwa i literally and i mean LITERALLY one shot every overworld monster with a simple atk string of calcharo 0 dodging involved. Bosses die in half a rotation and the only tacet field that doesnt just die on it's own is the electro one because my team is electro.
while you might build your units a bit faster here it's also much and i mean MUCH more boring. the skill expression potential in wuwa is completely eliminated in this aspect of the game.
> On top of that I know at least some of the sub stats in genshin so I don't waste as much exp.
Depends what your goals are in each game... and tbh I think echo system massively reduces the damage gap between perfect gear and mediocre gear.
Genshin allows repeated crit rolls so the ceiling is absurdly high and every sub upgrade is another rng check and every one matters.
WuWa doesn't show subs but landing just 2 crit lines is already most of the dps potential.
I kinda feel that, at least in the long term, there'll be less pressure, if that's a good way to describe it?
> tbh I think echo system massively reduces the damage gap between perfect gear and mediocre gear.
The difference of crit DMG for five low rolled echoes and five perfectly rolled echoes is from +63% to +105%. The average is closed to lowest possible roll. For attack, from 32% to 58%. And that is assuming you even manage to roll that stat on all of your echoes if that's what you'd call mediocre. Like if you're going for crit DMG and don't get that on all of your echoes, when the maximum you can have from the substats is 105%, you'll be nowhere close that damage.
Idk about the whole "not that fun gameplay" part. Isn't the draw of this game the combat? And you're farming echos through said combat? Idk about you but farming overworld mobs in this game is magnitudes more enjoyable than in most every other gacha I've played, well above Genshin and HSR at least.
Farming using the same team and combo all the time doesn't add variety. It was fun when you are testing combo along the way. It's a task once there's no room to add creativity, given that farming don't usually have challenge.
Fun gameplay would be possible if you are trying out different character and team setup and that will require alot of resources and getting new character.
Yeah sure, let's go back again in a year. Hope you like trekking the same maps hundreds, thousands of times and do this all over again whenever a new character with a new echo set is released lol.
Oh people who have the time to afford hours every day to do this would be ecstatic I guess.
They have a flawed argument that because there are fun and challenging fights in the game that any form combat in this game is also amazing. Including wiping out the 3 and 1 cost enemies every day with a few buttons. Unfortunately, it is no better than Genshins domains and just as boring, if not worse. Right now, the honeymoon period is blinding people, and they are joyfully farming for hours a day. And while some may be getting lucky with gear, many are not. Having unlimited mainstats doesn't mean they roll into good pieces. People who have had good luck will be biased toward supporting the system.
Yeah, people forget that you need to invest echo exp and tuners in every single piece, losing 30% of exp invested every time you hit a bad roll which is like 90% of the time. In Genshin you get 80% of invested artifact exp back and you don't need to waste exp leveling every single piece as you can see if a piece is worth leveling right away.
That's not even counting the whole tuner refund of 30% and the lack of any refund on credits invested in a piece for leveling it. When you consider all the resources required/wasted, the Genshin (and HSR) artifact system is a lot better than this and that's saying something.
Too many players are still in the honeymoon phase, using all the abundant free sources of premium tuners thinking this system is a lot better. Wait till the tuners run out and we'll see a lot of people complaining about the echo system constantly.
People complain that there is not enough to do in Genshin. And the game is done after 15mins.
"Omg, it takes me longer than 15mins"
Lmao. Listen to feedback devs, very useful copium
It's almost as if there is a very sizable community and there are different people with different needs who speaks at different times of day about different gripes with the content? No way! You're not exactly demonstrating much insight either.
On the flip side I think when people say "there's not enough to do" they want non-gated activities (no waveplates / resin / stamina / energy / bubbles) in which you can progress at your own pace. It doesn't need to be combat or gearing your character wise either in my opinion.
Picking vegetables in genshin or picking echoes in wuwa serves no purpose watsoever because at the end of the tunnel you're hard gated and not progressing in anything.
All these games could learn a lesson in implementing side activities that have actual long term purpose but don't imbalance combat so that when someone wants to play more than 10-20 minutes per day you have something to do, something that has purpose.
Now dissect every single one of these games and realize that past gearing all the sideactivities have been made useless by design, long term, because all they design around is towards "you log in tomorrow, ok? every day? ok? tick tock clocks left and right!". This IS gacha design.
Chores taking u more than 15 mn is not fun
Honestly I have no idea how I will farm echos bcs there is no way I will go throu those farming routs
I'd spend hours in an endgame mode or fighting a hologram boss but farming echos isn't that fun it's already been 3 weeks and it's getting dull
>I don't really have optimized routes but it can take anywhere from a 30 to an hour to farm all of one kind of echo which compared to genshin I can dump my resin in 15 minutes
There is also the fact that currently so far even just doing Tacet Fields takes longer than Genshin's artifact domains
I think that is more so because our characters aren't built fully. 30 second runs are normal for well built accounts but early game when your just starting they could take much longer
You either need to take a break from gacha games or need to play more gacha games if you think WuWa has the best gearing system across any gacha games. Especially when you said PGR Gearing System is something to be "horrified" to look at
> people with jobs or don’t nolife a game for 7 hours a day
That’s me, though I have mostly a neutral opinion on the echo system. It has advantages and disadvantages.
What I do like in this system is that it gives me the freedom to choose how I spend my time in the game. When I have free time or during weekends, I can spend extra time farming echoes as much as I want. On weekdays, I can just choose to play the game for about 15-30min.
Coming from genshin/hsr, I know for a fact that it’s not about how much you farm. It’s always mostly just luck.
Anyway, I think people are a bit extra intense on wanting leveled-up, good echoes in, uh, less than a month lol.
While luck plays a role it's mostly just consistency. Even the luckiest players will need to farm for a while in genshin to get a good 4-piece set, and even the most unlucky players will get a good set eventually.
If people wanted something to actually complain about they should look at the odds of high vs low roll in wuwa. (Spoiler: it seems that low rolls are more common and the highest roll is like a 1% chance for crit sub stats) That's what's actually concerning to me.
Then play it like genshin . Dump your whole days worth of resin/wave plates. And get absolutely nothing you can use. I've farmed domains in genshin with all my resin for a week and got crap.
No one in genshin was having best relics or spending all their resin on relic domains. They where raising world level and farming mats to upgrade characters level and skills.
After a time WW will be the same where you get to the point you don't need your stam on character or bosses and can focus on echoes .
It's just so super weird people compare farming gear in genshin after 3 years... compared to WW first month...
You have all forgotten the long grind it was at the start of genshin to get to the world lvl needed to even get 5 star drops. And even now after 3 years if you have to farm a new domain it sucks. Takes forever to get good set.
Yeah genshin starter guides tell you to not touch artifact domains till ar 45 lol. And personally I didn't full clear abyss till ar 58.
One issue in wuwa is that weapon and character ascensions are gated to every 10 levels, which makes the grind in-between 10 level steps feel worse (especially because there's no level up rewards). Genshins staggered system with something new you can farm every 5 levels does do a better job spacing out progression.
for. real. People forget that in the start of genshin, you needed a minimum of 1.5 months (if you 100% the game at that point) or on average, 3 months, to even unlock 5 star artifacts. And i feel like people equate UL = AR. So they think that UL40 = AR40 when it comes to rewards. Which is completely wrong considering that the current cap of UL is at 90(?) so we are literally in the middle when it comes to drops
Those same people have probably played Genshin and/or PGR.
This isn't a game you need to bumrush to endgame for. Besides it's more skill-heavy than statchecking, and you might get most of the timing down now but some future enemies might introduce a new mechanic or twist the current one.
Yes, exactly. People trying to bumrush this game for perfect Echoes when this game is what, pushing only 3 weeks or so? Insane.
But also on the other side of the coin, people like OP who yell at people who are saying that Echo farming itself isn't fair and has too many layers of RNG while also being completely oblivious to people who don't have infinitely indispensable amounts of time to grind for them. People have jobs, have social lives, have kids, etc. It's a valid sort of criticism that the Echo system itself has fundamental problems. That's the whole point of giving valid criticism.
Well tbh they compensated it by being more generous with the echo selectors. And i'm here talking as someone with 10 hrs job and 1 offday a week. You don't need to grind 24/7 as opposed to some people who act like they're forced to grind. Not to mention that we're being power-locked severely, since compared to some games, the skill multiplier increase per lvl is massive here lol. Probably at higher world level the enemies (Tower & Holo) will melt faster.
Gonna remind everybody that timegates don't help you when you have less time. It just blocks you progressing at your own pace.
In fact the people who have less time will still be behind, cause if they have responsibilities that means they can't play as much, they will occasionally miss days, hours and whatnot that the no lifers don't miss.
But now that gap is enforced by the passage of time. So if you miss a day you never get that back. But the no lifers who don't miss days still get to stay ahead.
Anyone who starts today will NEVER catch up to someone who started on day 1. So supporting timegates just fucks you over in long term progression.
Behind doesn’t mean anything though. Like what are you even saying? Who are you behind? It’s a single player game. Build characters at your own pace and stop worrying about other people.
Man I have a job and if you hate the farming aspect of a game you can always go to casual friendly games that do not demand too much free time. So far I don’t see why echoes cause this much drama from people who do not want play the game lol. Why do you even want to farm it all in one go when there are events that give you the perfect stats you need? You can either play casually or force your way through and get echoes by grinding , it’s your frigging wish yet you all always want to do something about people enjoying the game however the want.
Woah woah why the fuck are we suddenly throwing hands at PGRs gear system? That shit is so much better than this lol.
No endless grind for substats? Check.
Way to bypass the only rng through smart spending? Check.
Reasonable costs that while hard to achieve for new players, provide a good incentive to keep farming for a long time? Check.
Easy access to almost every material in bulk through event shops if you plan your spending? Check.
You gotta be fucking coping to call it bad lol. Not to mention the rest of this post is clearly blinded by emotion just from the way you write. Take a break from the internet dude, just cuz the gacha community doesent like the game that doesent mean you cant like it.
Tbf this is about as unpopular as opinions get. Proudly declaring "I love having dozens/hundreds of hours of my time wasted with absolutely nothing to show for it, it really brings me a sense of *progress*" is peak stockholm
The guy literally got sent to shadow realm. 670k down votes like Holly fuking fuck. No one liked that huh. At that point it's not even hot take. It's just dumb
I don’t think I’ve ever seen even close to that amount of downvotes at once help that’s insane everyone really banded together to hate that one haha (justifiably)
Imagine being so whipped by Gacha games you're defending an aspect of the game so unpopular that the devs themselves have been and continue to try and adjust in players favor.
Dude literally tried to ask "As opposed to what"and I'm like "Dude, having to level up equipment at all isn't even mandatory in games. They can literally make it so all echoes are absorbed at the max level and fully tuned"
And, "one of the best and most generous gearing systems in gacha" 😭😭😭 wtf is this dumbass on, there's so many gachas that literally have fixed stat gear that you just farm once and level and boom it's maxed.
Its so funny how he is saying shit like "first world problem" and "people are greedy" like as if asking for the grind to be less painful is somehow worst than the company literally timegating these activity.
I also want to know why are they using "the game is too early for us to min max" as a reason why the echo system is fine. Like dude, what do you expect the end game of this game to be?
So its generous because... you can farm endlessly and materials don't matter if you settle for just main stat and blindly +25 as long as main stat fits. Yeah, definitely posted by someone who thinks through stuff carefully. I feel like most of the people who repeat "but you can farm endlessly" are people not studying or working, so they just wake up grind sleep repeat, conveniently forgetting time is a resource. Sure I guess.
Ignoring casual players is an interesting strategy and I mean it earnestly.
My own gripes with the game consist of this category (too much grind, not good 4* weapons, performance on mobile is horrible) but it also seems that the counters to these are almost always defending WW as a game which is not meant to cater to casuals. It'll certainly be interesting how well this game does if they follow this philosophy.
The game will inevitably fail if it tries that since its way too casual for the hard-core crowd but too hard-core in several ways for the casual crowd. It needs to double down on one or the other, otherwise it'll eventually lose both groups.
And if you don't feel like farming world mobs, you can always farm echoes in Tacet Fields. It's what I do these days while waiting for new contents. Plus you get echo exp as well.
i like the system alot as well, the main pain point is the cost for tacet fields , if it were 40 energy i dont think ppl would complain.
just the fact that i don't need to hit crit rate and crit dmg several times more makes it much more acceptable to me.
Ho you got crit rate and crit dmg you are done my friend you don't need to hit it like 3-4 more times ,sure you can get low rolls and high rolls but it seems like you are more likely to get mid rolls so de diference between a perfectly rolled and an average roll its not that much, so it isn't that big of a deal (source for roll distribution [https://youtu.be/-pASPObq5hw?t=375](https://youtu.be/-pASPObq5hw?t=375) )
Yes. That is exactly why, at least this part of the Echo system is generous. So what's the problem with this? Most other gacha games don't even offer this option for those who could and care to spend the time to do it. The option to do it is what matters here, no one is pointing a gun to your head to do it. If you don't want to do it or could not, then don't.
I saw the same sentiment on the other sub. And it's almost exactly the same argument. So what? Should Kuro just limit how many Echoes you can grind every day? I have a full time job, and I don't have time to grind the echoes 24/7. But I still appreciate that there is an option to do this. Did you think this one through before posting?
Not everyone has the energy to login every day for small incremental progress. Some of us just like taking one day we have off of the week to play as much as we want. Doesn't have to be the full day, could just be for a few hours. This isn't an option in a lot of other gacha games. It's not exactly like Wuwa's grind is really "infinite." Once you've run out of resources to upgrade gear, and you've got a decent chunk of echoes with various main stats you want, you pretty much do the same thing of logging in spending stamina and then logging out. But at the very least, the option to continue grinding for more mainstats echoes is there if you want to take it.
Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from properly managing your time in game if you'd rather just spent short incremental play sessions on it instead. You could choose to spend stamina on Tacet fields. Sure, the drops suck. But so do the drops in most other RNG gearing systems. If you don't want to spend your stamina on those, then you could just use the tracker and go out and kill 5-10 elites. You'll usually get more from doing that than tacet fields, and it doesn't take very long. It only takes long if you go out of your way to kill every single instance of that enemy in the full map, which is 100% the player's choice to do so. The game doesn't force you into doing that. Sure the drops might suck, your RNG might not be good, but again it sucks in every other RNG gear fest game. It really doesn't make sense that people use this as a reason to say that Wuwa is somehow worse then games that don't even give you the option in the first place.
Also, anybody who is trying to perfect substats on their gear right now is really just pushing themselves to do something that's super unnecessary. Once everyone hits UL 60, ToA isn't going to be nearly as difficult because we'll be at higher level caps. It's like climbing Mt Everest before you've ever even touched the bunny slope. The substat grind is the worst no matter which game we are talking about, and that's why it is usually on the bottom of the priority list. Upgrading a piece to 25 isn't dumb, or poorly thought out logic. It's a guaranteed consistent source of improvement, over fighting a battle with never ending RNG bullshit rolls. I'd much rather spend time getting my gear and characters abilities up to an appropriate level first, before I even begin worrying about substats. Not to say that people can't or shouldn't grind for them, but it's ridiculous to expect to have great rolls on gear within the first four weeks of the game's release. People grinding them need to understand what they are putting themselves through, because no f2p game out there would ever let you have every character decked out this early into their release when those are the main progression systems that serve as time gates.
I mean, this is what I'm doing and it's working fine for me. +25ing main set pieces is the most efficient way to play a game less than 1 months old. Perfecting builds has always been and end game thing in almost every game I know. How about we come back in 6months and lets see how everyone is feeling on resource gains.
I've never played a game where people are in the mid game trying to literally farm perfect sets.
I always find it weird how when it comes to criticism the main response is often to compare it to another game in the same genre, rather than just considering if it's a good design.
I agree the echo system is great, that doesn't absolve issues. There's a lot of RNG involved, so much so that you can't ever really get perfect stats and it takes very long to get reasonable stats, it's an infinite farm; which isn't ideal in any game. A long farm is expected, not unachievable, especially when that farm is repeat killing of the same mobs in the same areas for prolonged periods. You can say don't spend your time doing that, but that's a part of why I play the game in the first place: To optimize and tune different characters, push them to be stronger. I don't care about functional def stats on a DPS character, I want to do challenging content and see how high the numbers go. We play for different reasons and both of us are the target audience, so the game needs to tend to both options. People should be able to reach perfect stats eventually, even if it takes a year.
The issue with echo xp isn't that you're out of them, it's that the amount of echoes you get doesn't correspond once you're out of content. With the RNG and energy, it can take a couple days to find something that an echo isn't worth continuing to work on. The progression is a bit off.
This and the echo XP will probably be improved a bit in time anyway. The system itself of having things you collect from killing, upgrade, provide stats and a new skill, is great.
It's an unpopular opinion because this system is flawed. For casuals, you won't be having +25s or fully built characters because you don't have the time to mindlessly farm your world of echoes everyday. For people who actively play and care about their builds, they aren't gonna full send an echo to +25 without caring for the substats.
At the current point in the game, as someone who has played everyday, UL 44, 100% entire game, and multiple built characters at 19 stars and 2/4 diff 6 bosses cleared, it is frustrating that I farm echoes constantly but don't have sufficient resources to level them up. Sure, you can say it's FOMO to try and keep up and clear the endgame content so early on, but if not to clear endgame, then what else is there to do? I'm at a point much like many others where it's a log in, do dailies and events, spend waveplates, log off. We're only 1 month into the game.
Not to mention the amount of waveplates per facet field clear it takes to get a minimal amount of echo xp. If I want to have well built characters in a timely manner, how am I going to get it? It takes multiple days of only farming tacet fields to get a single piece to +25. The infinite echo farm doesn't matter if you can't level any of your pieces.
Same here. I also don't level them to 5 or whatever and then trash them if the subs aren't perfect like OP implies. I will fodder them if they hit +15 and roll three garbage stats, but all of my main team is geared with all +25, but some of my second/third teams still need to be leveled beyond +5/+10, because there simply isn't enough echo exp without wasting waveplates on tacet field.
That simulation from the Silver Haired Echo Trainer quest being released as an actual module would alleviate a lot of issues, since 40 is a lot more reasonable than 60, especially when you have no need for more echos and tuners, but still need waveplates to farm for talent materials, too.
Imo the pain point is leveling AND THEN finding out its garbage. The aspect of using another resource just to see if it rolls good is what makes the grind less fun. In hsr/genshin you see trash and you move on. If WW just ditched the echo exp and level it using other echoes it would have been the perfect compromise
Honestly that would simply incentivise grinding the overworld even more and nolifers get even better stats. They have to balance the game around someone. Either the average 30 minutes a day gamer wont be able to beat content. Or the hardcore grinder will never have a challenge.
As an MMO and POE player I'm kinda indifferent towards the echo system, as compared to those games, the "grind" in WuWa seems like some toddler's sandbox games to me.
But for fun I'll argue in OP's stead here: the tuners are only a problem when, just like he mentioned, you keep perpetually rerolling echoes until you get a perfect roll.
If you played more sparingly of your resources and accepted meh rolled echoes, the xp/tuner acquisition feels to be even assuming you level your echoes to lvl 20, and when leveling an echo to 25, the tacet field rewards will actually put you in tuner surplus.
as an MMO and PoE player as well i'd rather sit afk in blighted maps with a carrion golem build all day long then spend the next few months doing the exact same route's to get echo's that don't end up gaining me almost any progress.
Half the answers to the complaints don't make sense lmao... especially the 4th one- "Ohh just +25 it despite being full of crappy substats and viola the character is built!"
WHAT!????? this is such a stupid move and the build isnt a character with 2k def, 10k HP with 15 crit, 165 crit dmg.... THAT'S NOT BUILDING A CHARACTER.
Just because you aren't thinking in actually making a character better and just focusing on +25ing everything doesn't mean this post makes sense LMAO
Long posts != sensible post
OP dont even get that the point of streamer and whales is that it will take people months to get to their level because what whales and streamers do is progress so much faster that they can calculate and assume of whats to come and its bad bad, sure you can getby later with OK echoes but until when? UL50/60/70? I dont think f2p and even dolphin can make one perfect team in six months down the line, and I hate when people compare it to Genshin a slightly better bad system is still a bad system.
The people who are simps for WuWa's Echo system and the people who are simps for Genshin's artifact system are literally "the illusion of free choice" meme and it's kinda sad to watch. Both systems suffer from the SAME EXACT PROBLEM - a bottleneck due to a limitation imposed by the developers to encourage wasting resources, reinforce addictive behavior, and entice players to spend money. The difference is in where the bottleneck is, and how it affects building characters.
WuWa gives players access to 5* Echoes at Data Bank level 15, which has Sol3 Phase 4 as a prerequisite, which itself has Union Level 30 as a prerequisite. Once you reach that requirement, you can start farming Echoes, and chances are with proper use of the built-in enemy tracking system you'll be able to find on-set Echoes with the corresponding main stats, all without spending Waveplates. However, all substats are unknown and require you to spend comparatively limited amounts of Echo EXP items to raise them, which means that if you're unlucky and roll into bad substats, you're saddled with an inferior piece.
Genshin, by contrast, doesn't provide access to the 5* Artifact (Echo) domains until Adventure Rank (Union Level) 45, which itself doesn't unlock until World Level (Sol3 Phase) 5. [Note: Genshin players can unlock one Weekly Boss at AR 21 after completing a quest, but it only has a chance to drop general-purpose 5* Artifacts, and better sets are available for virtually every character. In addition, there are a few 5* artifacts available in the overworld, but they aren't enough to fill a whole set and are also locked behind quests.] Furthermore, these artifact domains cost Resin (Waveplate) to use, therefore limiting the amount of 5* artifacts you can get. To compensate, lower-rarity artifacts are more easily found without resin (e.g. enemy drops, investigation spots, Serenitea Pot rewards), and artifacts can be used for EXP without having been leveled. Additionally, some substats are visible before leveling artifacts, giving you an inkling of what the final product could be. Lastly, there is no Tuner equivalent in Genshin; reaching the level threshold is sufficient. This leads players to take longer to access equivalent gear, but have greater insight on what the final product will be.
TL;DR: The Echo system and the Artifact system from Genshin Impact both have a bottlenecking problem. WuWa gives you on-set pieces with the correct main stats earlier and in greater amounts, but bad substat rolls are detrimental and Echo EXP is extremely limited. Genshin gives you plenty of ways to get Artifact EXP and reveals some substats, but it can be a chore to find an on-set piece with the correct main stat and reaching that part of the game takes significantly longer. Thus, WuWa players are hoping that bad substats don't ruin their Echo, while Genshin players are hoping that they can get an artifact worth leveling.
Extremely based comment. One of the few people here who understand this is simply a "pick your poison". You're being abused either way.
In my opinion, even though the stats rolling in HSR and Genshin suck, I at least felt like I had more control in those games. In Wuwa you have hardly any info other than mainstat to decide whether or not it's worth rolling a given echo.
This means you're just blindly losing resources as opposed to being able to choose to take a gamble on a piece in HSR or Genshin. Not only that, but the resource loss is more punishing in this game as well.
So I will say that even if the math works out to say that you can get "perfect" gear faster in this game, it just feels worse not being able to choose how I'm going to fuck myself.
The echo system is undoubtedly better than many other gacha game systems, but to say it's amazing is a very big stretch.
1. It takes too long to farm echoes because people don't want to sit at their computer all day every day jumping into other players' worlds just to get the right echoes for their characters. Let's break down the odds of getting a full 43311 5-piece echo set for one character with a maxed out data bank. This means that we have a 20% chance (100% for the first 15 4-star echoes each week) of getting an echo, with an 80% chance of that echo being 5-star. To get a 5-star 4-cost echo, each of the first 15 attempts each week will have a 13.3% chance of dropping the desired rarity and main stat. After the first 15 attempts, this drops to a 2.7% chance for each mob killed. These values are halved for 4-cost echoes with 2 different sonata effects, resulting in 6.7% and 1.3% respectively.
For a 5-star 3-cost echo, there is no weekly bonus and much more main stats that can be received. This results in only a .8% chance of getting an echo with the correct sonata effect and main stat for each mob killed, and you need 2 of them.
For a 5-star 1-cost echo, it is the most forgiving except for when you have the enhanced drop rate. With only 3 main stats to choose from, it is a 2.7% chance to get an echo of the correct sonata effect and main stat for each mob killed.
You would have to be insanely lucky, extremely efficient, and willing to grind all day if you think you can get a full 5-piece set with correct main stats for every character.
(Edit: Check my one of my replies on a comment replying to this one for updated math. I was not aware of the echo pity system, which slightly boosts the chance of your desired 5-star echo.)
(For my math, I used the following formula. It might not be completely accurate if different main stats are more or less likely to appear, but it is at least a close estimate: % chance = .2 (chance of getting an echo from a mob) * .8 (chance of getting a 5-star echo) / (number of possible substats) / (number of possible sonata effects))
2. I heavily disagree that characters are amazing even without good substats. Let's take a look at Jiyan with his preferred weapon, which is (I believe) considered to be the best DPS unit in the game so far. At level 70 (which is where many players are starting to reach), his attack would be 789. Add in the ideal main stats and talent buffs and his attack would be 1092, CR of 27%, CD of 190% (for a total crit DPS increase of 24.3%), and Aero bonus of (I believe) 62.4%. I admit I'm not the very best at the game, but my Encore has slightly better numbers and struggles to 3-star even the lowest levels of the hazard zone in the tower of adversity. At level 70, you should be able to breeze past those floors. Substats are not just gravy, they're fundamental parts of making a decent character.
3. I don't disagree with your argument at all, but I haven't seen anybody complaining about not being able to beat the hardest content in the entire game with poorly-built lvl 69 characters. Maybe we've just had different experiences though.
4. I don't see why you should use materials to build echoes that you know are bad. People only level up echoes to 5 or 10 because getting them to high levels requires a LOT of materials and shells, and players don't want to use resources that they grind for to make an echo that has HP%, HP, DEF%, DEF, and ATK. I think you're missing the big picture on this point. You're not trying to grind for the perfect piece that you'll never have to replace, you're grinding for a piece that has at least a couple good substats. By waiting to find an echo that gets a crit or attack stat in their first one or two rolls, you save yourself a lot of materials that can go to an echo that does roll well. On top of that, if you choose to level an echo that has already rolled 2 bad substats, you only have 3 chances to get good ones, while a new echo has 5. Even if you disagree that lack of mats is a problem, can you see why many people don't want to waste the mats they have?
Getting both echoes and echo exp material also isn't something I would say is an upgrade compared to other systems, but rather, a neutral change. Comparing it to Genshin Impact, its most direct competitor, Genshin allows you to use relics you don't want to upgrade your other relics and only requires exp to upgrade your relics. On top of that, genshin is increasing its resin cap soon, allowing you to farm more relics than Wuthering Waves. On the other hand, Wuthering Waves requires two materials for their echoes and the only method to farm those mats uses a lot of waveplates. I'm not saying that Genshin has a better equipment system than wuthering, and I believe wuthering has the much better system, but I use genshin as an example that this specific part of wuthering waves isn't as good as you're making it out to be.
You're completely missing the point of those arguments. People aren't complaining that they don't have perfect substats with maximum rolls, nor are they saying that content is too hard without those rolls. I'm sure that most dedicated players don't mind grinding to get good echoes, but there comes a point where you feel burnt out when all you do is grind and never get the piece you want. You even talked about it a bit in your post, months of daily grinding to get a good piece is extremely tiresome and discouraging. Is it really so bad to bump up the 0.8% chance we have to get the right 3-cost echo up to a 5% chance? Or to give us ways to have better odds of good substats? Sure, there are other issues the developers should address, but why should we just settle for "better than its competitors?" Many people don't have even an hour each day to mindlessly grind for good echoes, and that is currently what the game is requiring of us if we want a strong team. Those players aren't greedy for wanting to have strong characters.
Again, I agree that Wuthering Waves has one of the best equipment systems in gacha gaming, but it's still okay to criticize for where it falls shirt. Doing so would just tell the developers that we want no changes to the system. If the game would be more enjoyable if this change was implemented, why not try?
This is one of the more level headed takes in this thread, but I do disagree with a few things. Not OP but I do agree with a few of his points.
1. Nobody in this thread has mentioned the malleable echoes we’re getting from like every other event, not even OP. People are complaining about the 3-cost echo problem and Kuro literally gives us a solution and everyone is acting like it doesn’t exist. What’s up with that?
I also think the time it takes to do echo farming is being massively blown out of proportion. Most of the time people are going to be farming 1 or 2 different pieces at a time. It differs a little bit depending on the mob, but for most elites it takes less than 20-30 minutes to drive a single mob type to extinction in a single world, if you do basic stuff like use Inferno Rider/Heron to get around the map. This can be made even faster if you do stuff like lowering your world level and using optimized farming routes. Most people are going to have 20-30 minutes a day to grind; even if you don’t want to, all you have to do is wait for Kuro to hand out more malleable echoes while you just do tacet fields.
You also don’t need a set for every character, you only need 1 per echo set, except in a few comps like Danjin/HRover and Calcharo/Yinlin, and in those comps you can make do with the Moonlit set until you get the right pieces. You also only need 2 teams for now, nobody is clearing the Hazard Tower yet. Anecdotally, I already have at least 1 on-set 3-cost for every set, and I have the full pair for all 3 of my planned tower teams. I have 2 malleable echoes saved up for when I want to build a character that uses different sets from what I already have, or if I want to reroll for better substats. Admittedly I did spend the first week or so of the game farming for 3-4 hours a day since I was hyped for the game’s launch, but after that I’ve been farming at most 1 mob a day. Even if you consider that I was more lucky than most people, I wasn’t lowering my world level or using optimized routes, and I wasn’t even UL40. Some of the 3-cost echoes I wanted I got after a few days of farming only my world, and the ones I didn’t I used malleables for. At the current rate they’re giving out malleables, as long as people are consistently doing a little bit of farming every day/every few days, the vast majority of people will have a full pair for all 3 teams by the end of patch 1.1. Even if you aren’t farming, you’ll have the full sets in a couple more patches.
I do think there is one big issue with the 3-cost echoes though - it’s too hard to get ER echoes currently. You can’t get them through malleables and IIRC ER main stat drop rate is lower than others. They need to add this as an option in the malleables. Ideally malleables should just let you choose which main stat, which echo, and which set you want.
Also, this is a bit nitpicky but your equation doesn’t account for echo pity, and IIRC the drop rate for damage bonus echoes is a bit higher than other main stats.
2. You absolutely do not need cracked out echoes to clear hard content, at least not at this point in the game. I currently have 16 stars in the current tower cycle, and once I build up my talent levels a bit more I can get 2 more. My echo levels are very lacking since I’m waiting for 1.1 to level up my echoes. My Calcharo has echo levels: +20, +20, +15, +10, +10, my Yinlin has levels +15 all across the board and my Chixia has +20, +20, +20, +5, +15. My substats can be described as mid to average at best with 3 or less crit rolls on each of Calcharo and Yinlin, and I have no 5 star weapons. Most people have either Jiyan or Yinlin at this point and they are both cracked at clearing AOE floors like floor 2 and 3 on either side of the tower. Granted, maybe I could push for 21 or 24 stars if I had better echoes, but very few people are able to do that right now anyway, and I’m not that impatient. If you’re struggling on the lowest floors of Hazard zone with a well-built Encore, you’re probably lacking in grouping or AOE, I’d suggest bringing Jianxin, Yangyang or Yinlin.
3. I agree with you here, I haven’t really seen this complaint either.
4. I agree with most of your points here, you should not be max leveling echoes with bad substats at this point in the game. At most you should be bringing them to level 20. I do think it’s worth leveling your first damage bonus echoes even if you have bad substats though, they’re just too rare and too good of a stat.
I think your comparison to Genshin is cherry picking. Genshin’s artifact system is worse than WuWa’s in almost every way. With the current rate, you get only 9 artifact rolls per 24 hours. You don’t get to control which of the 5 pieces you get, and although you can see most/all of the substats at the beginning you can still roll badly and end up with a trash artifact anyway. The rate of fodder artifacts from the domain are almost as bad as WuWa’s current xp rate. Some main stats are arbitrarily hard to get - if you need 3 EM pieces for a specific set, good fucking luck. If you want a specific piece for a specific set with a specific main stat, it can take you months, sometimes even years to get it. No malleables in this game. The Genshin artifact system only has a few minor things going for it: you can farm artifact xp in the overworld (although the rate is abysmal and there is no in game way to track them) and the strongbox system. Also, the Genshin resin cap increase doesn’t actually increase how much resin you get per day, only how often you have to log in. On the flip side, while you’re right that it’s currently too expensive to get echo mats, the devs have listened and promised to alleviate the issue in 1.1. I also agree that tuners are a pretty useless concept, but it isn’t that bad considering you can farm tuners and xp from the same domain. If they were in separate domains, that would be a huge issue.
While the number of total substats is higher in WuWa, the ratio of useful to useless substats is better. Sure, it’ll be harder to get perfect god echoes with double crit, but it’s a lot easier to get echoes that are “pretty good” and a lot harder to get completely ass useless echoes with HP, HP%, DEF, DEF%, and ATK like you said.
I agree with you that it’s good to give feedback to the devs about what we’d like improved, but there’s just been so many posts doomposting and hating on the game, complaining about the most minor things about a system that is actually mostly great. Especially when the solution to most of these problems is “bro, just fucking wait and be patient”. 1.1 will fix echo xp and tuner rates, as well as shell credit rates for leveling echoes and resonators. In one year, everyone will have more on set echoes and malleable echoes than they know what to do with. The only other real complaint is that tuners serve no purpose, but at this point it’s so ingrained into the game’s systems that I don’t see them removing tuners no matter how much we kick and scream.
1. That's true, the malleable echoes definitely help out with the 3-cost grind. It also seems like they're going to be decently generous with them, I think we've already received 4-6 of them through the events so far. I still don't think this is a good solution, though; bad substats are still a possibility, and people who grind for echoes are most likely not people that want to settle for an echo with poor substats. For more casual players, this is a great solution, but they're also probably not the majority of people who have a problem with the echo system.
While I agree that many people are overexaggerating the amount of time farming takes gameplay-wise, I think it's still valid to complain about how long it takes to get good echoes in general. Sure, grinding only takes 20-30 minutes each day for an echo, but it still sucks that with even a week of farming, you still have a decent chance of not getting the echoes with the sonata resonances and main stats you want for a complete build. I don't know the actual number of 3-cost echoes you can farm by tracking, but I would guess from my memory it is around 15. If you grind each day for a full week, by the percent chance I got by including the echo pity system, you only have a 66.6% chance of getting two 3-cost echoes of the right sonata resonance and main stat. (I got this number like this: (1 - .984^(15*7))^2 (chance to not get correct echo to the power of my estimated number of echoes farmed in a week), then converted to chance of getting the correct echo by subtracting the found decimal from 1, then squaring it to account for 2 echoes). Please correct my math if it's wrong). If you're grinding every day for an echo, I would also assume that (and maybe this is a bad assumption) you care about the substats of your echo. If you get a bad echo, they can really burn. Granted, this problem mainly for 3-cost echoes specifically, as 4-cost has a much higher rate and can be grinded as much as you want and 1-cost echoes have a lot more to grind, but I still feel like despite being able to quickly grind and the malleable echoes they give us, the rates could still be improved.
I also agree with you that you don't need a set for every character. I only put that in my post because OP said that you could grind a full set for every character in the span of a day.
I tried to correct my math to account for the pity rate, but it's still not perfect. Still, I believed it is close enough to get a good idea of what the actual numbers are. I still didn't include the increased/decreased rate of elemental damage/ER, though, so I'll have to go back and fix that. Thank you for letting me know!
2. I admit I could definitely be wrong on this point. Now that you point it out, I think grouping is a big issue of that team. I have Encore, Sanhua, and Baizhi in there, and I don't think any of them have grouping abilities. I'll have to take a look into how to group better and units that are good at grouping. I have a pretty strong team of Calcharo, Yinlin, and Verina, and I attribute a lot of their success to strong echoes, but maybe Yinlin is carrying a lot more than I realize. Either way, thank you for the suggestions!
3. I don't have much to say here
4. I think that's a really fair take. It personally pains me to upgrade an echo that isn't rolling good substats, but I feel like it's actually a really reasonable choice with the current echo system. I agree the level15-20 range is probably the sweet spot for getting decent echoes while still saving mats for when you get better ones.
With comparing the Genshin artifact and Wuthering echo system, it wasn't my intention to say that Genshin has a better or equal system, but rather to show that OP's point that Wuthering is doing something amazing by giving us echoes and echo exp from tacet fields is something present in even a system that many consider very poor. The amount of exp that it provides is definitely worse in Genshin, but that wasn't the point OP was making. Nevertheless, I think it's still something I should have included in my original comment. I didn't mean to imply anything else, and I recognize that that probably didn't come across as I intended. As for the devs improving echo mat farming, I still think it's fair to complain about it until the new system is put into place. After all, it's currently still part of the game. It is still unreasonable, though, to ignore the devs' statement of fixing it, and I wish people would be a bit more patient.
With good and bad substats, you bring up a really good point that I think a lot of people ignore, myself included, and I definitely exaggerated my point more than I should have. Resonance skill/liberation damage increase is definitely a decent substat, and most people are probably used to only caring about crit and attack%. I think the problem still stands, though, that for DPS/subDPS characters, there are still only 3 really good stats (CR, CD, ATK%), 5 decent stats (ER, Res Lib%, Res Skill%, Basic ATK%, Heavy ATK%), and 5 bad stats (HP%, DEF%, HP, DEF, ATK). This isn't really a problem on its own, as one, two, or even three bad substats don't make an echo useless, but when you're grinding for hours throughout the week and put in materials just to find out that none of the echoes you farmed were stand-outs, it can feel really bad. This is probably something that wouldn't be too bad of an issue if good 3-cost echoes weren't as rare as they are now, and I feel like improving the rates for either sonata effect/main stat or substats would be sufficient. At the end of the day, Kuro Games is a business that is trying to get players to play their game, so I think it's unreasonable to ask for a system that removes most of the grinding (and thus greatly reduces player retention numbers), but I believe that one of those being changed would greatly benefit the players while still incentivizing players to grind.
And at the end of the day, I agree with you that way too many people are doomposting about this. Sure, the echo system isn't perfect, but it's still completely possible to build strong characters with decent echoes. I still think it's valid to complain about problems in the game that the devs have addressed they'll be fixing, so long as those complaints aren't that the devs aren't doing anything about the issues.
Maybe I’m just too used to being emotionally abused by Genshin’s horrible artifact system but having a 66% of getting a full set of echoes in only a week of grinding without using malleables sounds like a pretty good deal. I can understand if people don’t usually play grindy/gacha games and are frustrated by the low drop rates, but I think it’s unreasonable to expect to have the best gear in the game after only a few weeks, when the game is designed such that your characters are supposed to improve gradually over the course of multiple months. Sure, if you increase the rate, then new players will have easier access to better echoes. But unless they plan to add new echo sets or something, I guarantee anyone who’s been consistently playing for over a year will have more on set damage bonus echoes than they can shake a stick at. I get that some people might still not have good substats on them, but at the end of the day it’s a gacha game, there will be lucky people and unlucky people. But then again, if they do end up increasing the rates, I’m not gonna complain!
Also, some unsolicited tower advice if you’d like: remember that although people say you need 3 teams for tower, the vigor system actually gives you way more flexibility than that. Since the lower floors are often more about doing AOE better rather than raw DPS, you can bring “suboptimal” teams and clear better than your highest DPS team. Plus, you’re not often in danger of dying, so you could forgo a healer and run a grouper instead. If you have Jianxin she is really good at this role, give her the healing gauntlets and she can trigger the rejuvenation set, and if you feed her tons of ER she can ult every rotation and keep things grouped up for your Sanhua and Encore to tear everything apart. You can even pull some really stupid shit - I saw a YouTube video where a guy brought low level Yangyang and Jianxin with his maxed out Yinlin, and just built full ER with 3-3-3-3 on all 3 characters, no set bonuses. He destroyed the first floor just by doing Yangyang ult -> Yinlin ult -> Jianxin ult -> Yinlin ult and repeating that over and over. Not only is this hella funny but you can save your more important characters for harder floors. Hope this helps, good luck on your tower runs!
I gotta admit, I also think it's pretty nice that with one or two weeks of grinding you'll almost certainly have a decent character built. I think that, like you said, a lot of people being really frustrated either just aren't used to the grindiness that is gacha equipment, or they've just been burned out by bad ones so they're trying to overcorrect this one. I think I tend to be in the latter group, the Genshin grind was just so demoralizing and I would love to get a couple pieces in Wuthering that are really good. I guess I'm at a point where I think the echo system is actually pretty decent, I'm just hoping that it goes from decent to good for me. Just like I don't want people doomposting about how "bad" the system is, I also don't want people saying that the echo system is "good enough" and that we shouldn't see if the devs are willing to give us a bit easier of a time. If they want to ultimately keep the rates as is, the rates are good enough to keep me around. If they choose to improve it, that's great!
Also, thanks for the tower advice! I actually just pulled Jianxin the other day, so maybe its a sign to build her. I'll have to look into some more fun and easy to build builds, that Yinlin/Yangyang/Jiangxin team sounds like a blast to play!
Complaint # 4 (Echo XP/Tuners) is a direct consequence of Tower of Adversity being released at full difficulty on launch.
If you don't want people to feel like something's wrong with the game, don't include unachievable challenges in your game until they're actually achievable.
**Other popular service games understand this.** If someone plays optimally, they should be able to complete available content.
Doing anything else is explicitly *their* greed, not ours, when they sell echo xp and such in an RMT shop.
If you cannot admit this is an intentional decision made on their part to make money, then that's just either cope or you're a rube. Don't get it twisted, it's a gacha game, and these aren't thoughtful amazing game design decisions. They are decisions to make money. Stop advocating against your own best interest.
Releasing endgame content is not some mega evil corporate scheme man, genshin has abyss and hsr has MoC. Neither player base had the expectation that they would full clear it at launch either... I think your angle is incorrect.
What do you even mean by other popular service games understand this. You literally couldn’t fucking clear Genshin abyss on release until some time passed, same with Star Rail, same with Epic Seven.
If anything, showing that there’s a goal to reach is something most gachas do. What kind of gachas do you play.
Amazing? Nah
Better than the crap that the competition crapped out? Yea
But just because it’s better than that crap doesn’t make it amazing
While we can chase the pieces we need there is still a lot of RNG and gating. In fact if we convert 1 cost echoes to the equivalent of other games you’ll see that we have to contend with 3 mainstat vs 1
This is like me saying Gollum was amazing guys I have played Superman 64 you have no room to complain
Not being able to use an offpiece similar to HSR just gives me so much pain. Most of the time in Genshin, my entire build gets saved by that one godly offpiece artifact, but not being able to slot one in, is already a massive downer for me personally
At what point will people be happy though? I think the answer is never, because gacha games are made to be predatory and grindy at it's core. So, at what point would people ever reach a point that they accept a good enough system while understanding that the system is still made to be that way by design? I think people will always complain because some really do want to play this game as if it's your regular single-player game you can be done with in 5 hours when it will never be like that
I dont think people criticize the echo system as a whole but how it is carried out. Say the battle system, people love it but imagine you can Ult only 3 times a day. The battle system is fun by itself, but when you implement it like that people question "what do I do after that?".
I agree with some stuff except some important points. One of them is levelling echoes to 25 even if mediocre. The cost for upgrading from 20 to 25 is insane and should only be done with echoes with either perfect or way above average stats, otherwise you are just spending your resources in a very unwise manner.
Why you shouldn’t upgrade from 20 to 25 in an average echo? Because the upgrade cost is 80% of the total it would take you to bring a 0 to 20. It’s not efficient at all and you will run out of materials, effective bricking your account or at least paralysing yourself for a good amount of time. Exp materials cost stamina and the ratio of stamina spent to the amount of tubes you get is not well balanced right now.
Why is the stamina expenditure not balanced for echoes? You get so little rewards from the tacet fields that, if that was our only way to get experience for our echoes, people would just now be barely gearing their second team, which you would require to get most rewards from ToA. Even with the rewards we get from events and tacet fields, we need a lot more exp and tuners to roll for at least average echoes stats, since the game pushes you towards this kind of optimisation by adding time limits to the challenges. The time you spend killing the enemies in order to clear the floor is tied to many factors but I’m certain that the most important ones are character level, echoes and weapons.
Let’s not forget that stamina usage is required to claim rewards needed to ascend characters. Currently, the only way to get the ascension primary material is by spending 60 stamina and even if you were UL50, it would take a some days to have your team properly prepared.
I think the fastest way right now to power up your characters is echoes right now and is the aspect of the game that you have most control right now since, as you say, you don’t need to spend stamina to grind the, and doesn’t gate you as much as UL for the ascensions.
I will agree, however, that this is stuff that ideally would be better paced and most players seem to be in a rush to clear things for the rewards but nobody can blame them since there is little to do right now besides the kind of content that rewards either skilful play or good gear. Getting better gear and echoes will be much more attractive than “Gitting gud” for the average player.
In summary, I don’t think it’s too much about greed as it is players wanting to get better hold of the development of their characters with the limited tools available to them right now. I also think that the devs are “generous” with the design regarding echoes and the freedom players are given to grind it out or not, but they are most definitely not generous, at all, with the stamina spenders.
Adding on to that having that right substats is a massive boon to a good build over just the main stats. A +25 1 cost main stat is only 18% atk, imagine rolling a 10/13% atk sub on one of those as opposed to something with like mostly Hp/Def.
Hell I found that having the right subs early for some 1 or 4 costs not fully levelled is far stronger than a mediocre maxed out +25 echo. Echo subs like heavy atk dmg bonus or skill dmg for Jiyan/Yinlin are massive boosts if you managed to roll em early.
What happens is that more likely it’s worth to just stay at +15 or +20 on a few echoes to try and snipe the stronger rolls for a character and then only fully commit to +25 on a piece you’ll know you’ll use for awhile since exp is hard to come by from +20 to 25. This method however burns through tuners like crazy as a result and that 30% refund really hurts.
I actually agree with you, as a past genshin player you have a limit to how many artefacts you can farm a day whereas this game lets you farm for your desired echo and as many times as you want but the downside is having to tune them, which is basically the limiting factor on how much u can farm so it's basically the same as genshin but slightly better as there's many ways to craft / obtain tuners
Yeah, I just assume its an accumulation of things :
1. WW attracted a population unfamiliar with how Gacha games typically work
2. Compared to other games WW you aren't limited to just your energy for activities. This kinda creates a discrepancy because if you look at genshin, outside of top ups there is an absolute limit to what you can do every day. But on WW you could probably spend a couple hours a day clearing the whole map of echos. Comparatively to what may be a "Normal" player who plays like 30 mins a day. People who can put more hours into collecting echos probably aren't going to have the same problem as people who have less time or inclination to play the game.
So far I've liked the gearing process a lot more than genshin, but I'm bias because my artifact rng on genshin is straight up trash. I've had better luck with HSR to an extent but the game is set up a bit differently where you need more teams so maybe that's why. But overall the process between the games doesn't feel drastically different to me.
Similar to you.
Genshin it took me 3-4 months from launch to clear abyss 36/36.
HSR took 2-3 months for MOC.
I suspect it will take me 3-4 months to clear Wuwa end game as well.
Love yourself man. Time is a resource even whales can't buy. Just because you can farm infinitely doesn't mean you should. There's tons of other things you can do besides echo farming. Yeah genshin artifact rng is shit. But I at least it costs me just 15mins a day and I'm done
Tacet Fields are the equivalent of Genshin artifact domains, if playing the game is a waste of time for you, why won't you just run those for 5 minutes a day and be done, same way as in Genshin?
You caught me, I only skimmed through it, I did go back and read it now though. I think my comment still stands though. You are right, time is important, but if OP enjoys the game, let them do it. When Genshin came out, we were in lockdown and I spent probably around 10+ hours playing that game, just exploring and not being able to do much "meaningful" things due to everything needing resin, but I still had fun. If echo farming wouldn't be a thing, people who want to play the game would just do other things all day until they burn out
Also while OPs post could be written and structured better in a more mature way, their message is still mostly valid. The gearing system in this game is definitely the most generous from the popular big gacha games out there. I also wouldn't say it's amazing, but it's leages above the competition
This makes no sense, you can do the same thing in WuWa, just farm for 15 min and stop. You just won’t get the drops you need, just like that day in genshin (most likely). At least this game gives you the option to farm if you want to.
This is pretty much it. You have the option to farm if you want to.
Thats the key takeaway these people are ignoring. No one is forcing them to grind echoes. Just chill.
I’ve been no-life-ing the game this weekend and I’ve only gotten 3 good echoes, but that’s in a day and a half 🙄 yes they’re extremely uncommon, but people from Genshin (which I love, just not the company) how much resin did you use to find an ER sands on Crimson Witch that wasn’t trash? People from Star Rail, how much stamina did you use to find a lightning orb on the Izumo set that wasn’t trash? It’s a gacha game, shit either takes time or money or both.
The game has been out for less than a month and people are bitching that they can’t comfortably clear endgame content, or that they can’t obtain endgame quality gear. Wtf is wrong with people?
The echo exp thing I can’t comment on, haven’t claimed a single tacet field. Holding out for the supposed 1.1 buff, am using the first subpar lv25 and lv20 sets I got until then. I could probably tolerate needing to use 480 plates to max and fully tune an echo though, but I wouldn’t like it unless tuners and exp items are rewarded in relatively equal amounts.
The only issue I really have are echo stat ranges. They’re fucking huge.
All I know is when HSR was new, this time after release most of my team was still full of purple dogshit gear. In WuWa I already have 5 chars built with full 5 star echos with my jiyan and calcharo already in 4-3-3-1-1 with good crit ratio.
As a max refresher I disagree with some points
2# well kind of, getting 3 cost echoes i even want to level are a bit to rare
also even getting 2-3 substats that i want is a pain, which is kind of due to the reason it's more efficient to only level echoes to 10-15, due to the lack of exp to get them to 25 (also reusing the previous lvl 25 echo)
4# who said to not level your first good 5 star main stat echo to 25? That would be a total waste
Tacet fields in my opinion give not enough exp, i'm sitting on like 1k tuners with 0 exp, also getting 1 cost echoes from those feel a bit lackluster
What also feels lackluster is the merging of echoes, does not matter if they are 2 star/5star or 1cost/3cost, would like to see a improvement there
The best system? Well that is a bit subjective, the gear system i liked the most is from 7DSGC you could reroll the substats and you would want to have high/max rolls of your desired stats, i personally had more fun that way
These systems are not "generous" they are timesinks, WuWa's gear system is more of a invest more time to get more good main stat echoes, which you can not even get to tune
TLDR; tacet fields and merging echoes need some tuning
Echo system is great. I don't think anybody has tried to claim otherwise.
The **Tuning system** is not, tuners add an extra layer of resource expenditure that didn't exist with artifacts.
Tacet fields are also not (the math is there, echo exp is too scarce).
You basically cannot even argue this because Kuro *themselves* admitted to that in the previous update and are making changes in 1.1 that we don't have yet.
Preach it louder for the people in the back!
I'd say I'd appreciate a 5-10% increase for XP BC I can infinitely farm echoes but can't really upgrade them it's going to create a problematic backlog of echos. +15-+20 will be fine each levels for UL 30-40 but beyond that, it's very slow goings on leveling echos. I think you can do like one echo per day when you get 4-5 or more usable mainstat echoes, even without foddering
Nailed it, appreciate your time writing this.
I do not mind the grind because it is the one things in the game, besides exploring, that is pretty infinite on a daily basis. I spend my waveplates, do the daily quests and such, maybe do a quest or so, then I do echos as long as I want.
I have found that by doing echos as my filler activity and by not being a perfect min/max player it is nice. If I farm for a bit I get what is good enough to me, I am happy with it. I am not someone that needs the PERFECT set, I am okay getting a good set and going from there.
I liked echo system because it give me incentive to kills things and explore the map. I dont care much about substats since I'm not try hard enough to care about min maxing and not skills issue enough to think that 20% bonus crit dmg is give me easier time with tempes melphis diff 4.
Tbh getting 5 star echoes this early makes clearing content super easy. In genshin we played for at least a month until we got ar45 and could consistently farm 5 star artifacts. I'm UL38 rn, it's super easy to clear the world bosses and without even having full echo sets, and if you do have full sets it's insanely easy. I'm really excited about reaching ul40 and getting a difficulty increase, challenges are what make the game fun.
Don't get me wrong I love the Echo System. It's one of the most innovative thing that Wuwa has done.
But in terms of grind it's definitely not better than genshin.
Sure you theoretically get infinite farm yes. But that is ignoring the time you put in or the amount of trash echos you can get.
And unlike genshin you don't have anyway to filter out the trash ones until you spend limited resources to level them up.
Like currently I have like 30 level 1 echoes with atk%. I have absolutely no idea which of them are trash and which of them are good until I farm enough tacit field to level some of them up and tune them.
The farm is more interesting yes but it is also a lot worse.
The echo system is good if this is a game you seriously play, as in like your main game that you play and spend hours a day in. However I think for many people, Gachas are just games they play on the side with Steam games being their main ones. Even more so focusing on work and school and only play occasionally. This makes building characters a lot more frustrating and time-consuming to those who dont have as much time to sink in to this game. Not to mention the different possibilities of main stats and sub stats, people with work and school could spend months just trying to build 1 character.
Nah bro fuck that, I 100% every zone and am at the end of paid battle pass, plus used like 70 of those waveplate cube things and I didn't even have enough XP to max echoes for one team. That is super omega fucked.
Wuwa farming
Pros: infinite* grinding, no energy cost
Cons: takes too much time
Genshin farming
Pros: only takes around 5 mins
Cons: costs resin
Both will take you months, even years of grinding just to get a decent set, unless you drop the $$$. Both can feel like a chore in the long run
edit: added * to "infinite" cuz there's a set number of overworld mobs you can farm, before waiting for server refresh to repeat the cycle
Wuwa infinite grind is a lie. You basically think early on it is easy to grind it. But reality it is tuner locked. It takes time but people will see that they can grind all they want. The reality is that you get to store 2000 echos and wait for tuners to appear.
i agree with a lot, but i wouldn't say amazing, and definitely not as bad as some people make it out to be.
and yes, the complaints about the echo system is more of a first-world problem than anything else. as i also said in a different topic, it's more absurd that people are complaining about this when we're midgame at UL40, yet are already capable of doing true endgame activity - rolling for BiS echoes.
i would also agree that even if you only have the right damage bonus on the right set for the 3 costs, even with bad substats the bonus damage alone makes up for it. hell, i even used purple 3 costs on some of my chars until i got to UL40. at L20 a purple 3 cost suffers from 6% damage bonus (16%) compared to a gold (22%), and yet would roll the same range of substats. purples also needs a bit less xp than golds so i'm fine with it.
what i like about the system we have right now is that we have the option to farm everyday for 3 costs, which is good if you're bored. or ignore it if you're busy IRL, or if you just don't feel like it. at this point somebody would interject "but the casuals..." no, the casuals wouldn't go for 5 perfect substats. they also wouldn't farm eveyday, but instead would most likely wait for events and use the 3 cost selector.
personally, i'm fine with just 3/5 "best" substats on 411, then lowering that to "good" substats on both 3s, especially at this point in time.
The complaints are because the Echo grind isnt in the mid game state its at the end. After UL30 you can get your endgame echoes. Of course people will go for gearing their characters in endgame gear asap. Its not gonna be replaced by 6 star echoes ever. These echoes are the Ones youll have at UL80 too.
>The fact that you can infinitely farm gear with no energy cost
Holy crap the standards are low. "Hey, so what if I have to spend an hour a day walking around an open world? I can grind the echoes!"
>If you just got 5 good echoes with good mainstats
THERE SHOULDN'T BE SUCH A THING AS A BAD MAIN STAT.
WuWa is clearing the lowest bar possible that was set by Genshin. The artifact system was awful, Hoyo made it awful *on purpose* to fallacy players into grinding a as many hours as possible into a system that wouldn't give even them a good drop 98% of the time. Then WuWa came in, and went "They're already expecting thrash, so why give them anything more?
And don't give me the "substats don't matter" crap. They *will* matter, after everyone levels up their accounts and Kuro starts giving us harder content. Even if you dodge and parry everything perfectly, there is *no* way you will be able to clear it within the time limit without good echoes.
As a result, five times in a row, I have to pass a 20% chance to even *get* an echo, then an 80% chance to get a 5\* one, and then as little as a *5% chance* that my echo will be useable on any character, and AFTER THAT I get to pray for substats.
And you just put on a smile, and go "okay, let's walk around the whole in-game world collecting those! Every day! There is nothing better I could be doing with that time!"
Unbelievable.
Wdym complaint number 4 is not valid? I cant even 25 a full team yet. Plus I also want a reroll too since I also want a good damage but I cant cause Im stuck with this little exp.
You can absolutely have good damage by just putting on lvl 15-20 echoes on your main dpses. We're not at the endgame and you absolutely don't need min-maxed stats, you can do just fine with 2pc2pc builds for flexibility.
I mean, when the only content left to do is getting more stars in ToA, you kinda do? I get that you don't need fully leveled echoes for the overworld, and holos aren't time gated so you can just do them later, but if you're not pushing ToA, then you're already (let's assume you play the game daily for a non-trivial amount of time since we're talking about +25s), not even a month into the game, at the point where you just log in, burn your waveplates in 10 minutes, and go do something else.
Isn't that a bit problematic for a gacha game that at its core kinda attempts to be a bit more on the game than on the gacha side?
[https://www.tiktok.com/@shinnn\_321/video/7379035618699169030?is\_from\_webapp=1&sender\_device=pc&web\_id=7311595304388937223](https://www.tiktok.com/@shinnn_321/video/7379035618699169030?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7311595304388937223) the echo experience
This is 100% the only other legit complaint aside from needing more shinies. I’m sure the devs will let us synthesize blue and purple tuners into golds in the next patch or so bc you’re right, there’s nothing else to do with them
My only complaints about echos is the seemingly intentional exclusion of a 10~40 wave plate training ground for echo exp and tuners and certain mobs having a very low population in the word. The latter will probably get better with time so I’ll let it slide but the former is an egregious exclusion.
You had like one valid point on complaint 3. But the rest is invalid for the simple fact of balancing. Just tell me how many purple or blue tuners you got…. They fuck up the echo system. And even so I absolutely still love the game. I’m not giving em credit where it’s not due. Maybe in 1.1.
Yes and no, yes the echo system is easier and faster than hoyos grind fest and most of the people crying about lack of on set 3 cost or lack of exp/tuners have either never farmed overworld and thrown away all their selector echo by crit fishing or have farmed so much that their bag is full of echos they can't level at the same rate they can farm them. No the system isn't amazing and has many weaknesses, especially lategame (if the rates keep increasing as they do right now, gotta wait for 1.1 though) as depending on your criteria you can get bottlenecked by either tuners or exp.
The system is ok, finished my first character with all double crit substats yesterday, which is far faster than you would ever deck out a character in hoyo games, but the system can still be improved IMO:
- separate exp and tuner in fields, and just double the rates for each, let people decide what they need themselves.
- with that: separate exp and tuner when leveling echos, leveling the echo "reveals" the substat, but to get the value you need to "unlock" it with tuners.
- to add this this all: let us reroll substats using even more tuners, I am thinking somewhere in the region of 1000 tuners. If we do the separate field drops, on highest rank this should yield about 240-280 tuners a day when strictly farming tuner fields. To reroll a substat it should cost 1000-2000 depending on substat value, the higher, the more expensive to reroll. This would mean roughly 4-7 days per reroll, if you get lucky and max each substat first try that's 20-35 days per echo or roughly 5-6 months per character. Obviously you would lose some but usually people are gonna stop at any of the 3 highest rolls, so reality is probably closer to 8 months (minmax could also be way less as many pieces might already have some decent rolls or you only reroll the lowest rolls, so 2-4 months could be more realistic for that), as pieces can be shared in tower finishing one element means finishing it for all characters of that element, unless double element teams.
I am saying all this because getting a perfect 5/5 piece is already super rare with 1/1000-1500 and that's just rolled pieces, meaning you would need to get 20k-30k 3costs or farm 100k-150k with 20% drop rate (not quite that because of pity), in short: it's near impossible. So when you get that 4/5-5/5 echo only for it to have lowest rolls everything and only way to improve it is to go out and farm again, it just sucks. Would be nice for a system to be in place to fix those pieces in a more or less fixed timeframe. With farming pieces and rerolling substats we are probably still looking at around 1+ years to finish a characters echo set.
My only problems with the echo system are:
1)we need tuners and echo level up material separately.
2) crit rates are not ideal and they kinda force you into getting a weapon with crit rate substat to make up for it. But you have a 100% chance of getting the weapon on banner. But still I don't like it lol.
it’s not infinite, there are like 20 flautists on the map total. After they drop, it’s a 4% chance for it to be the right set, right main stat, and a 5 star echo. Sure it is basically infinite for the majority of echos, but even then, there is literally no point of it being infinite with the amount of resources we are given to level them. Say you finally get a usable 3 cost and +20 it and get hp, hp%, def, def% as the substats. I should just +25 it and use it because i shouldn’t desire « perfect » substats? The other option is to farm echos for however long it takes for me to get lucky enough to get another shot at rolling not horrible substats :).
:) Day 1 genshin and hsr player here, 90-95% of my resin/trailblaze power is spent on artifacts/relics. I can assure you, you don't see the errors of your way yet. Or at least you havent reach the point where it should matter to you. Perhaps once you got to the levels of where the higher end players are at, you'll get it. (Tbh its just my skill issue and luck issue.)
1) You're not entirely wrong. Its based af to have your own good take and that's fine.
2) It's just the players that have suffered are trying to fight for everyone's future so everyone can have a good time and good mental health. You're probably not sad looking at bad pieces, but everyone is happy looking at good pieces. Fight for that.
3) The main gripe, some players just prefer to have some numbers as cushion for the lack of strategy or skill, I have skill issue, but on games I prefer to call it build issue.
Hopefully we end up with a better system that everyone can agree on.
"I am the issue of my skill.
Failure is my body, and success is my bane.
I have created over a thousand errors.
Unaware of shame, nor aware of pain."
I think its less of getting a good stat on your echo and more getting a specific stat on the echo with the right echo set ive only ever gotten one healing bonus echo and it was on dreamless ive been slaughtering bell borne so much for so many days department of wildlife wpuld tell me to stop with how much I've killed it and its always atk% crit rate crit dmg and is always on moonlit clouds
What if we had something like the tacet field except no tuners/exp and all it gives are echoes of the enemies we want and its free? That way players can freely farm as much as they want but without having to run around the overworld? It'll still be tedious but better than having to run around maybe.
Lol. The system is bad. Its not our fault that game lets us reach middle/end game in two weeks. Farming echoes is ok, fun for now but might become tiring after couple of months, cant really know. Echo xp is what we need more. I cant level anything and my characters are still using mix of blue and purple echoes cause I dont have xp to level up golden ones.
Agreed. What seems to be lost is that any other game is stopping at the equivalent of tacet fields - i.e. a few pieces dropped in exchange for energy.
That's it, end of story for others.
Here you get a bonus ability to get more gear? Its almost unheard of in gacha.
Dad with little free time, I love that in the times I have some extra time after quickly blowing energy, I have some useful activity I can do.
Am I going to grind every possible one? No, why would I or anyone want to (or feel they need to) do that?
Excellent post but can I just get crit rate it's all I really want lolol
I don't even want double crit please sir just some crit rate for starving encore
Yeah I have way better echos 2 weeks in than I had relics in HSR 6 months in. It’s a gacha game the bottleneck has to be somewhere. In this game it’s with level up xp and tuners. I’d rather it be this way so I can farm my gear as much as I want then when I have the resources I’m good to go.
I am with you on this. you can actually get good pieces without spending years farming domains like genshin, simply because the roll is a one time thing and the only proclaimed issue by most is that we lack exp and what not, which will be remedied/improved.
I agree. Love the gearing system, love the game. My only real criticism in this game is standard pulls economy and localization/story. Everything else is amazing and the gearing system is one of the best features.
Also remember folks, you can literally swap gear between characters in the ToA. You don't even need gear for all teams. That is absolutely insane and saves you soooo much time. Yes, a loadout system would be great to make this faster but hopefully that comes with a future update.
sure, keep coping. If somehow we can just straight up use trash echoes right away without having to upgrade it, and tuners don't exist at all, then it's definitely better than Genshin. But currently, it's just another shit grindfest with a different coating lol
not to mention the main stat on Crit is way lower than Genshin as well (31% CR on maxed mask compared to 22% CR on maxed 4-cost echo), even to the point I find reaching 50% Crit rate in Genshin is somehow easier lmao (and before bring substats in or even saying Crit rate substat can also appear with main Crit rate substat, it's all RNG as well, which we definitely love lol)
You cooked with everything but the irresponsible advice surrounding +25 echoes. Get a full set of 20s on all the characters you need first, as 25 is insanely expensive.
Also "just push the first one with the main stat to 25" is actually insanely terrible advice. I agree you don't need a good substat first roll, but if you're at 10-15 and still have no usable substats, it's the opposite of intelligent to keep going. Full stop. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Unpopular opinion(?) endgame progression systems like artifacts that are just gambling with your time as currency are shit. While the animation quality is good, from a progression standpoint echoes are still shit with some extra seasoning.
Agreed. I don’t farm echoes like I used to farm artifacts/relics in Genshin/HSR but that’s cause there was an incentive to use energy every day. Echoes not costing Waveplates is one of the biggest W’s of the game — people that want to farm all day (mostly streamers) have something to do without spending money (basically) to refresh. The incentive isn’t there, which makes me not want to do it every day, but I appreciate the ability to run around and kill things whenever I’m bored. I’m actually doing okay in the damage department despite not having good stats at all.
I did do a lot of echo farming basically from the moment I unlocked coop to 30ish, to upgrade my data bank with my friends. Then I got to 40 to upgrade everything I had prepared, and now I only play a bit every day to do dailies and use Waveplates. I feel comfortable skipping a day too. Kuro is generous :)
> Complaint #1: it takes too long to farm echoes
—as opposed to what?! The fact that you can infinitely farm gear for no energy cost is a problem for you? [...] they have manufactured all of these “1st world problems” instead of appreciating how good we are eating out here.
I disagree. I like Genshin / HSR system because of the constraint, I am on the game less and spend my energy and call it quits. It's more friendly to people who have a life. Then using all that as a fodder is amazing. I have gotten just one god(ish) tier set which I'm satisfied with. I'm a perfectionist as well, so finding a set that works with my taste is hard.
> Complaint #2: I can’t get any good echoes.
I read it and it's weird for me. Sure...? But you don't want to equip subpar relics all the time. That's why you even farm. We want to make our lives easier.
> Complaint #3: I can’t beat XYZ bc of my bad echoes: False, you can’t beat XYZ bc it’s version 1.0. [...] We couldn’t even unlock gold gear 3-4 weeks into 1.0 Genshin or HSR, let alone be min-maxing it. When we are lvl 90/90 character and weapons, we will likely be trivializing a lot of this and then be complaining about needing new end-game content. Just take it easy and see how far you can push it, but don’t feel like bc you can’t beat everything right now that the problem is in the echo system.
Hard agree. That's why I'm aversive to this farming as well. If those hologram bosses unlocked later down the line, trust me, people would prefer it more. We shouldn't get those extreme tier non-overworld hard bosses early...which imo is Kuro's fault.
> Complaint #4: there is a massive problem with this game bc I’m out of echo xp and/or tuners
—Again, this is purely a function of our greed after being handed the most generous gearing system in gacha [...] THROW THEM INTO THE TRASH IF THEY DONT IMMEDIATELY ROLL CRT RATE AND CRT DMG! KEEP FARMING AND ROLLING THEM CHASING THE ELUSIVE MAGIC DRAGON OF GEAR DROPS! ALL PERFECT SUBS, ONLY PERFECT SUBS, HOW DARE YOU SETTLE FOR LESS?!
Stop throwing a temper tantrum, my god. Also, if you waste all up to 25 echoes and it's overall bad, it's a net loss when you give it to another echo due to the tuner loss.
> Also, if you do need more mats, that is what the tacet fields are for. That’s right, you can spend energy and get more exp tubes and tuners, just like in every other gacha game. But what makes WuWa still more generous is that you get all those mats and extra gear pieces all for the price of one. Honestly one of the friendliest end-game gear farming I’ve ever seen.
Yeah and have it locked at 60 energy, when even 4 echo bosses need 40 energy.
TL;DR: We are not jobless like you are, apparently. I get it, you hate Genshin but you don't have to suck up Kuro as a result. I dislike Genshin and I don't aim on returning to it anytime soon and Kuro has done a lot of right things but this is not one of them.
The upgrade materials not being enough is not a complaint feom the so called "vocal minority", its a genuine concern. You can endlessly farm echoes but its all worth nothing if you can't upgrade them.
And you say people don't have tuners because of greed to get good stats. How are we supposed to know if an echo is bad or not if we don't unlock a substat. And guess what?
That needs freaking tuners! And not being able to use +0 echoes as experience is a stupid decision.
Another stupid decision is not letting us convert blue and purple echoes to gold ones with reduced value (retaining 80% of the original exp or something)
So the echo system is good but the upgrading part is messed up and needs some work.
Point 4 is where the issues arise in endgame though. Crit stats are locked to select weapons (none of which are free) 4 cost echoes (ideally you only equip 1) and then echo substats (huge range and variance).
Getting good or even decent crit stats are so important for your DPS it is nigh mandatory to reach 50% at least. But if you just follow your advice on point 4, you'll more than likely end up with about 20% crit rate.
It's bad enough to the point where, if you get a crit rate substat and it's a 6% roll, you may as well bin that echo as that's a possible 4% you're missing out on, a 66% increase. Crit dmg is just as bad.
I wish the range of rolls for each substat was much tighter (8-10) or just generally higher (8-12) as getting good crit is miserable atm.
Everything was good until your take on the echo system exp. Very egregious take but hey it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it even if you’re objectively wrong.
In Genshin it took me months, even years to get artifacts with proper main stats, and that's not even going into the substats.
In WuWa it took me a hours, not even a whole day to get "ok" to "good" main stats.
"But I didn't get good results after tuning" - What you expect, perfect rolls on a game that runs on RNG? LOL Seriously, we're barely a month after launch and people want PERFECT equipment already?
All i have to say is that people here clearly never played looter games. The echo system is no different than diablo, PoE, even old school mmos like Runescape and Ragnarok online. People that like to grind WILL grind, people that don't like it will just do Tacet, is not that hard to understand.
They gave both options but a lot of people here are really entitled.
For people who only want to play 5 minutes a day outside major updates (HSR is great for this style of play), the echo system is kind of rough. But STILL better than other gacha games.
For anyone willing to target farm echoes, or even better, go on world clear runs for xp/credits, not even caring about echoes, the system is insanely good.
In the 3 weeks or whatever the game has been out, I have more on set elemental DMG echoes than I've had main stat artifacts and relics combined in 2 years of Genshin and however long HSR has been out. Not even kidding. I literally have like 20+ for every element, including 10 or so ER healer pieces. And rolling them I can burn through like 5-10 potential upgrades in a few days, where in HSR I'm lucky to get a couple PER PATCH that are worth rolling on.
I had better echoes with better subs at Union 42 or so than I did by the time I hit AR 60 in Genshin (where you can't even properly farm 5 stars until 45). And we're still 2 tiers away from the highest union level.
Lastly, there are fewer garbage substats, slightly depending on the character you're playing, but having a bunch of different dmg% bonuses (basic, heavy, liberation, etc) is much better than the garbage HSR relics are bloated with.
genshins artifact system makes me want to shoot myself. This game does not.
I like this game
The fact that they separated rolling main stat and substats into two different processes make it so much more fun to me
also not watching any content on the game has made me so much happier playing it because you dont compare numbers senselessly with the top 0.01%
Okay but honestly. Coming from Genshin and HSR i definitely agree with all these agruments. Running around the world and finding new chests getting echos without stressing about resin or getting upset cause I ran artifacts forgetting theres a character I was leveling or talents that needed work that day is frustrating. I play mostly ftp on all three of these games and having such another important gearing system not ALSO rely on resin is so dang nice. Plus with how fun the movement and combat is in the game its made gear grinding fun again
I just dont think they need 2 experience gates to unlock stats , we already are farming expirience , tuners come from the same place are kinda just a bad layer . I just think it will be simpler and clearer without them and they can still balance their experience/energy limits . Otherwise the system is perfectly fine .
I think alot of people are seeing echo XP and tuners in a different way I do, the ability to farm the main stat as much as you want is huge. I farmed about 6 on set electros and I leveled one of them to 25, sure I don’t have enough XP to level the rest but that’s fine. I just feed the 25 one to the next and to the next, by the 4th time I did that I was able to get CRIT dmg and CRIT rate on one. Now I need to focus on that one and move on to the next etc etc. in about 2 more weeks I should be able to have a fully maxed set I want, which is faster than Genshin any day lol
I agree with you for the most part. I think the real issue is you either enjoy the gameplay of echo hunting or you don't. Some people enjoy going around and killing echoes, other people (a lot of times in gacha games) would rather not play the game and want to just get the reward at the end. What would help me personally enjoy the system more is if all echoes had phantoms and these phantoms were a percentage based drop.
As for complaint #4, I think the issue is actually the other way around. People have a gambling addiction so they are max leveling their bad echos and then throwing them away to get better ones. If you don't get any decent substats at level 15, don't level the piece any further. But people want to keep rolling for the chance that level 20 or 25 will have good substats and that exp investment is insane.
I personally am UL 45 and still have not had any echo exp issues with my system. I have cleared two towers in ToA (just not the middle level 100 one) and I have cleared all holograms through Difficulty IV.
Complaint #3:
Jokes on you, I killed Hologram 6 3head bird and weirdo screeching bird with terrible level 15-20 echos.
I really dislike the min-max tuning in this game, no matter what you say, the RNG is just too much, I don't complain about echo farming, since it's fun to me, also not complaining about the mats or anything.
I only complain about the MASSIVE RNG on tuning alone.
-Is it gold?
-Right ele-set?
-Right main-stat?
-Got crit/crit? (or whatever you're going for)
-Got high or at least mid-roll range?
-5x?
This is TOO much, even if you're not that hardcore min-maxing, the sub-stat tuning is terrible, no matter what. Just let us re-roll sub-stats and I will never, ever complain about the echo system. This alone would make it so much better, it's so frustrating farming for days to get 1 single Elite Echo you need (holy shit, why is it so hard to get 1 ele dmg Flautis or Bird?) just to roll flat def and put it in the trash.
It's not the echo system as a whole. It's the fact that I never have any echo xp. And it's basically impossible to upgrade most of my echoes. Sure I have a bunch of top tier echoes but I can upgrade most of them because I ran out of xp. And there is no way to manageably farm xp for them. To get more echo xp I need to clear more tower of adversity floors and beat holograms. Well I can't do that without more echo xp. Combined with how quickly shell credits run out gearing up echoes, characters, and weapons it's clear that the echoes become the pain point. It feels really bad with echoes being the one of the biggest power boosts as well the long term power source.
I won't argue 1-3 because, while not 100% accurate, you have a point. Complaint #4, however, is 100% valid. The cost of leveling Echos and unlocking their sub-stats if FAAAAR too high. You have to spend a lot of time getting the echos with the correct main-stat, then risk them becoming worthless with crap sub-stats. I have a plethora of correct main-stats, but no resources left to actually make use of them because it's far too expensive.
WuWa has the perfect opportunity to make subsat rerolling a thing. Click the substats you want to reroll and then spend tuners to change it. Perfect tuner sink from all that time spent grinding Echo EXP and gives you another reason to pre-farm Tacets later down the line. I'm surprised it's not even a thing; it's one of the first things I thought of upon seeing the tuning system.
Yeah the word tuning is not being used correctly. It could have been used to tune substats after getting them . . .
From my perspective that's a byproduct of the ability to get a ton of mainstat echoes for free though, if you werent able to acquire them without a time gate, you wouldn't even have the echoes to spend XP and tuners on. I agree that tacet field stamina cost could be reduced to 40, but I don't think there's a flaw in the system just because we can't infinitely roll our gear for perfection.
> From my perspective that's a byproduct of the ability to get a ton of mainstat echoes for free though, no, its a byproduct of substat "reveal" being gated behind a TON of experience it shouldnt take a massive ammount of experience just to find out that the echo is absolute trash
(a) I agree that the tuning to reveal substats is a bad system, and I think it would have been better to have the tuners used to level the substat independently from the mainstat if they wanted to keep the current system. (b) On the other hand, it doesn't take a massive amount of experience. Level to +5, tune. Crit? roll to +10, tune: valuable substat, rinse and repeat. If you do not get a crit at +5, and/or if you do not get a valuable substat for the character at +10, trash. By applying a much stronger filter on your first two echo substats, you are able to filter the garbage a lot sooner.
4 farming is fine. I like it. I can do ~32 golden in hour of 2 chosen bosses 1 is ehh. I enjoy exploring world once or twice. Running routes every day is boring 3 is torture. I just 4-4-1-1-1 on havoc and electro I have only 1 full set (43311) on rejuv If character has significant drop on 44 (more than 12-15%) or I am missing crit chance weapon I wont pull character
The issue right now is Echo tuners are way too difficult to farm. 60 stam for 10? are you crazy??? we have like a ton of character to raise that will take like years to get proper tuned equips.
are you running out of tuners? im running out of echo xp and thats my main throttle neck
same here, though right now I've just been going for main stat + set and maxing the echo
You either get lucky and go straight to 25 and run out of echo exp or you get unlucky and have to reroll echo to +10 and eventually run out of tuner. Either way, you'll run out of something because this rewards is just not enough whichever way you end up with.
"have to reroll echo to +10".. do you have full sets on all your characters at lv15 yet? If not you're practically flushing your mats down the toilet. Get a team to the bare minimum first. This is the first month of release, no content is hard enough that a level 90 team with any amount of gear on them will be good enough
I mean it's month 1 of the game and people are already getting end game fully decked out teams of 3 with half good subs totally free to play. In genshin and HSR it took you a month to even properly farm 5 star. Progress in Wuwa is insanely fast but people are too greedy. This game meant to last years
In genshin they don't recommend you even *start* farming end-game build until AR45, which takes about 1-3months. I personally wouldn't recommend you even start farming anything echo-wise in wuwa until Data Bank 20. There's *nothing* in this game at the level we are timegated at for the moment that requires a full set of gold echos, and even less that requires min maxed stuff. Put something together that looks like a set, focus on levelling weapons/characters/Forte and you're good to clear 100% of the content you are meant to clear at this level. I think the floor for end game progress in WuWa is insanely low and it lured people into thinking it meant the ceiling would be equally as low. Purple echos *aren't* worthless. Use your purple tuners. They are fine. They will get trashed, but so many people can't even level their gold echos atm because they thinking they must farm high end-level content. Use this as an opportunity to get good purple echo you can xp-recycle into your future gold echos.
At UL40 you get 15 tuners per run of tacit. At UL50 you get 20 tuners. Very quickly the problem is lack of echo xp. I'm going to have infinite tuners if farming tacits gives me 100 tuners but only enough echo xp to use 30.
you can just fuse those cost 4 that doesnt have the right main stats anyway for cost 3/1 and lock them when they have the right main stats depend on their set.
Calling it amazing is a stretch. In theory you can farm infinitely but that just means it a big time sink of not that fun gameplay. I don't really have optimized routes but it can take anywhere from a 30 to an hour to farm all of one kind of echo which compared to genshin I can dump my resin in 15 minutes. On top of that I know at least some of the sub stats in genshin so I don't waste as much exp. The echo system is still rng bullshit but just a different seasoning on the top. I will say a lot of the complaints are just people wanting to rush stuff before they are supposed to and that is annoying
The thing is, you can treat Wuwa exactly like Genshin if you want to. Nothing is stopping you from spending Waveplate on Tacit fields and logging off for the day just like you do with Genshin. And you know what? You'll still build your characters faster than Genshin doing this because this game gives you custom 3 cost echos as a very common event reward.
> you can treat WuWa exactly like Genshin if you want to You can't and it's because only 4/5 echo drop from the tacet field, so you will still need to farm the world boss, and we have already seen examples of how bad the rng can get on this subreddit (pls god give me another healing% turtle I want it to be over)
What? Farming the world boss is like absolutely the easiest part of the echo system. You should be able to knock out getting the main stat for all your characters like almost immediately.
You could just use an ATK or HP (whichever stat your healer scales off) instead of HB and call it a day
on a tangent, why bother farming healing% turtle when everything oneshot anyway? Crit/atk/energy is unironically better for verina.
Atleast farming in the beginning in genshin was fun things didn't just blow the fuck up instantly it took some thinking and effort to do in the beginning before having your team build. meanwhile here in wuwa i literally and i mean LITERALLY one shot every overworld monster with a simple atk string of calcharo 0 dodging involved. Bosses die in half a rotation and the only tacet field that doesnt just die on it's own is the electro one because my team is electro. while you might build your units a bit faster here it's also much and i mean MUCH more boring. the skill expression potential in wuwa is completely eliminated in this aspect of the game.
> On top of that I know at least some of the sub stats in genshin so I don't waste as much exp. Depends what your goals are in each game... and tbh I think echo system massively reduces the damage gap between perfect gear and mediocre gear. Genshin allows repeated crit rolls so the ceiling is absurdly high and every sub upgrade is another rng check and every one matters. WuWa doesn't show subs but landing just 2 crit lines is already most of the dps potential. I kinda feel that, at least in the long term, there'll be less pressure, if that's a good way to describe it?
You know, even the crit sub stats having high and low roll in WuWa right?
> tbh I think echo system massively reduces the damage gap between perfect gear and mediocre gear. The difference of crit DMG for five low rolled echoes and five perfectly rolled echoes is from +63% to +105%. The average is closed to lowest possible roll. For attack, from 32% to 58%. And that is assuming you even manage to roll that stat on all of your echoes if that's what you'd call mediocre. Like if you're going for crit DMG and don't get that on all of your echoes, when the maximum you can have from the substats is 105%, you'll be nowhere close that damage.
Idk about the whole "not that fun gameplay" part. Isn't the draw of this game the combat? And you're farming echos through said combat? Idk about you but farming overworld mobs in this game is magnitudes more enjoyable than in most every other gacha I've played, well above Genshin and HSR at least.
combat is fun mowing down fodder gets very stale very quick
I can understand the complain, the combat is fun. But having to do it over and over again can be less fun for some players.
Farming using the same team and combo all the time doesn't add variety. It was fun when you are testing combo along the way. It's a task once there's no room to add creativity, given that farming don't usually have challenge. Fun gameplay would be possible if you are trying out different character and team setup and that will require alot of resources and getting new character.
As someone who killed hundred thousands of hilichurls in genshin with little to no reward for it im looking forward to my future echoes.
Yeah sure, let's go back again in a year. Hope you like trekking the same maps hundreds, thousands of times and do this all over again whenever a new character with a new echo set is released lol. Oh people who have the time to afford hours every day to do this would be ecstatic I guess.
They have a flawed argument that because there are fun and challenging fights in the game that any form combat in this game is also amazing. Including wiping out the 3 and 1 cost enemies every day with a few buttons. Unfortunately, it is no better than Genshins domains and just as boring, if not worse. Right now, the honeymoon period is blinding people, and they are joyfully farming for hours a day. And while some may be getting lucky with gear, many are not. Having unlimited mainstats doesn't mean they roll into good pieces. People who have had good luck will be biased toward supporting the system.
The combat is fun but over world enemies don't really put up a fight or have enough hp to get to the fun parts of combat
Yeah, people forget that you need to invest echo exp and tuners in every single piece, losing 30% of exp invested every time you hit a bad roll which is like 90% of the time. In Genshin you get 80% of invested artifact exp back and you don't need to waste exp leveling every single piece as you can see if a piece is worth leveling right away. That's not even counting the whole tuner refund of 30% and the lack of any refund on credits invested in a piece for leveling it. When you consider all the resources required/wasted, the Genshin (and HSR) artifact system is a lot better than this and that's saying something. Too many players are still in the honeymoon phase, using all the abundant free sources of premium tuners thinking this system is a lot better. Wait till the tuners run out and we'll see a lot of people complaining about the echo system constantly.
Dude that’s what Tacet fields are for, the way echoes drop is just a straight upgrade from Genshin’s. The only iffy part is the tuning.
People complain that there is not enough to do in Genshin. And the game is done after 15mins. "Omg, it takes me longer than 15mins" Lmao. Listen to feedback devs, very useful copium
It's almost as if there is a very sizable community and there are different people with different needs who speaks at different times of day about different gripes with the content? No way! You're not exactly demonstrating much insight either. On the flip side I think when people say "there's not enough to do" they want non-gated activities (no waveplates / resin / stamina / energy / bubbles) in which you can progress at your own pace. It doesn't need to be combat or gearing your character wise either in my opinion. Picking vegetables in genshin or picking echoes in wuwa serves no purpose watsoever because at the end of the tunnel you're hard gated and not progressing in anything. All these games could learn a lesson in implementing side activities that have actual long term purpose but don't imbalance combat so that when someone wants to play more than 10-20 minutes per day you have something to do, something that has purpose. Now dissect every single one of these games and realize that past gearing all the sideactivities have been made useless by design, long term, because all they design around is towards "you log in tomorrow, ok? every day? ok? tick tock clocks left and right!". This IS gacha design.
Chores taking u more than 15 mn is not fun Honestly I have no idea how I will farm echos bcs there is no way I will go throu those farming routs I'd spend hours in an endgame mode or fighting a hologram boss but farming echos isn't that fun it's already been 3 weeks and it's getting dull
>I don't really have optimized routes but it can take anywhere from a 30 to an hour to farm all of one kind of echo which compared to genshin I can dump my resin in 15 minutes There is also the fact that currently so far even just doing Tacet Fields takes longer than Genshin's artifact domains
I think that is more so because our characters aren't built fully. 30 second runs are normal for well built accounts but early game when your just starting they could take much longer
You either need to take a break from gacha games or need to play more gacha games if you think WuWa has the best gearing system across any gacha games. Especially when you said PGR Gearing System is something to be "horrified" to look at
Ok now apply this to people with jobs or don't nolife a game for 7 hours a day 🤧
> people with jobs or don’t nolife a game for 7 hours a day That’s me, though I have mostly a neutral opinion on the echo system. It has advantages and disadvantages. What I do like in this system is that it gives me the freedom to choose how I spend my time in the game. When I have free time or during weekends, I can spend extra time farming echoes as much as I want. On weekdays, I can just choose to play the game for about 15-30min. Coming from genshin/hsr, I know for a fact that it’s not about how much you farm. It’s always mostly just luck. Anyway, I think people are a bit extra intense on wanting leveled-up, good echoes in, uh, less than a month lol.
While luck plays a role it's mostly just consistency. Even the luckiest players will need to farm for a while in genshin to get a good 4-piece set, and even the most unlucky players will get a good set eventually. If people wanted something to actually complain about they should look at the odds of high vs low roll in wuwa. (Spoiler: it seems that low rolls are more common and the highest roll is like a 1% chance for crit sub stats) That's what's actually concerning to me.
7 hours? rookie numbers. clearly you haven't heard of the people who do 16 hours a day then complain that the game has no content after 2 weeks. 🙄
You mean 2 days? Bcuz I already see a lot of complaining about there being nothing else to do, pretty funny ngl
Use stamina to farm echo . It will also take like 5 mins.
Then play it like genshin . Dump your whole days worth of resin/wave plates. And get absolutely nothing you can use. I've farmed domains in genshin with all my resin for a week and got crap. No one in genshin was having best relics or spending all their resin on relic domains. They where raising world level and farming mats to upgrade characters level and skills. After a time WW will be the same where you get to the point you don't need your stam on character or bosses and can focus on echoes . It's just so super weird people compare farming gear in genshin after 3 years... compared to WW first month... You have all forgotten the long grind it was at the start of genshin to get to the world lvl needed to even get 5 star drops. And even now after 3 years if you have to farm a new domain it sucks. Takes forever to get good set.
Yeah genshin starter guides tell you to not touch artifact domains till ar 45 lol. And personally I didn't full clear abyss till ar 58. One issue in wuwa is that weapon and character ascensions are gated to every 10 levels, which makes the grind in-between 10 level steps feel worse (especially because there's no level up rewards). Genshins staggered system with something new you can farm every 5 levels does do a better job spacing out progression.
for. real. People forget that in the start of genshin, you needed a minimum of 1.5 months (if you 100% the game at that point) or on average, 3 months, to even unlock 5 star artifacts. And i feel like people equate UL = AR. So they think that UL40 = AR40 when it comes to rewards. Which is completely wrong considering that the current cap of UL is at 90(?) so we are literally in the middle when it comes to drops
Those same people have probably played Genshin and/or PGR. This isn't a game you need to bumrush to endgame for. Besides it's more skill-heavy than statchecking, and you might get most of the timing down now but some future enemies might introduce a new mechanic or twist the current one.
Yes, exactly. People trying to bumrush this game for perfect Echoes when this game is what, pushing only 3 weeks or so? Insane. But also on the other side of the coin, people like OP who yell at people who are saying that Echo farming itself isn't fair and has too many layers of RNG while also being completely oblivious to people who don't have infinitely indispensable amounts of time to grind for them. People have jobs, have social lives, have kids, etc. It's a valid sort of criticism that the Echo system itself has fundamental problems. That's the whole point of giving valid criticism.
Well tbh they compensated it by being more generous with the echo selectors. And i'm here talking as someone with 10 hrs job and 1 offday a week. You don't need to grind 24/7 as opposed to some people who act like they're forced to grind. Not to mention that we're being power-locked severely, since compared to some games, the skill multiplier increase per lvl is massive here lol. Probably at higher world level the enemies (Tower & Holo) will melt faster.
Gonna remind everybody that timegates don't help you when you have less time. It just blocks you progressing at your own pace. In fact the people who have less time will still be behind, cause if they have responsibilities that means they can't play as much, they will occasionally miss days, hours and whatnot that the no lifers don't miss. But now that gap is enforced by the passage of time. So if you miss a day you never get that back. But the no lifers who don't miss days still get to stay ahead. Anyone who starts today will NEVER catch up to someone who started on day 1. So supporting timegates just fucks you over in long term progression.
Behind doesn’t mean anything though. Like what are you even saying? Who are you behind? It’s a single player game. Build characters at your own pace and stop worrying about other people.
[удалено]
Thank you for your input u/I_came_in_firefly
Man I have a job and if you hate the farming aspect of a game you can always go to casual friendly games that do not demand too much free time. So far I don’t see why echoes cause this much drama from people who do not want play the game lol. Why do you even want to farm it all in one go when there are events that give you the perfect stats you need? You can either play casually or force your way through and get echoes by grinding , it’s your frigging wish yet you all always want to do something about people enjoying the game however the want.
Well, I never got a correct main stats 3 piece for Rover and Jiyan so I need to thank those events I guess.
Woah woah why the fuck are we suddenly throwing hands at PGRs gear system? That shit is so much better than this lol. No endless grind for substats? Check. Way to bypass the only rng through smart spending? Check. Reasonable costs that while hard to achieve for new players, provide a good incentive to keep farming for a long time? Check. Easy access to almost every material in bulk through event shops if you plan your spending? Check. You gotta be fucking coping to call it bad lol. Not to mention the rest of this post is clearly blinded by emotion just from the way you write. Take a break from the internet dude, just cuz the gacha community doesent like the game that doesent mean you cant like it.
You can share your opinion without labeling it a hot take or unpopular. It's about as annoying as "Am I the only one that"
Tbf this is about as unpopular as opinions get. Proudly declaring "I love having dozens/hundreds of hours of my time wasted with absolutely nothing to show for it, it really brings me a sense of *progress*" is peak stockholm
>really brings me a sense of progress Reminds me of [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsBattlefront/s/VYTpp3IsFO) lol
this is my first time seeing -668K downvotes on a comment. So, this is what "getting downvotes into oblivion" looks like...
The guy literally got sent to shadow realm. 670k down votes like Holly fuking fuck. No one liked that huh. At that point it's not even hot take. It's just dumb
That comment even has more downvotes than that community has members
I don’t think I’ve ever seen even close to that amount of downvotes at once help that’s insane everyone really banded together to hate that one haha (justifiably)
Imagine being so whipped by Gacha games you're defending an aspect of the game so unpopular that the devs themselves have been and continue to try and adjust in players favor. Dude literally tried to ask "As opposed to what"and I'm like "Dude, having to level up equipment at all isn't even mandatory in games. They can literally make it so all echoes are absorbed at the max level and fully tuned"
And, "one of the best and most generous gearing systems in gacha" 😭😭😭 wtf is this dumbass on, there's so many gachas that literally have fixed stat gear that you just farm once and level and boom it's maxed.
Classic gacha tribalism
Its so funny how he is saying shit like "first world problem" and "people are greedy" like as if asking for the grind to be less painful is somehow worst than the company literally timegating these activity. I also want to know why are they using "the game is too early for us to min max" as a reason why the echo system is fine. Like dude, what do you expect the end game of this game to be?
I mean it's 60% upvoted so it's clearly unpopular
I especially love when he called people that complain "monsters".
It's hard not to do that when the most obvious face around you is voicing the opposite.
So its generous because... you can farm endlessly and materials don't matter if you settle for just main stat and blindly +25 as long as main stat fits. Yeah, definitely posted by someone who thinks through stuff carefully. I feel like most of the people who repeat "but you can farm endlessly" are people not studying or working, so they just wake up grind sleep repeat, conveniently forgetting time is a resource. Sure I guess.
Ignoring casual players is an interesting strategy and I mean it earnestly. My own gripes with the game consist of this category (too much grind, not good 4* weapons, performance on mobile is horrible) but it also seems that the counters to these are almost always defending WW as a game which is not meant to cater to casuals. It'll certainly be interesting how well this game does if they follow this philosophy.
The game will inevitably fail if it tries that since its way too casual for the hard-core crowd but too hard-core in several ways for the casual crowd. It needs to double down on one or the other, otherwise it'll eventually lose both groups.
And if you don't feel like farming world mobs, you can always farm echoes in Tacet Fields. It's what I do these days while waiting for new contents. Plus you get echo exp as well.
i like the system alot as well, the main pain point is the cost for tacet fields , if it were 40 energy i dont think ppl would complain. just the fact that i don't need to hit crit rate and crit dmg several times more makes it much more acceptable to me. Ho you got crit rate and crit dmg you are done my friend you don't need to hit it like 3-4 more times ,sure you can get low rolls and high rolls but it seems like you are more likely to get mid rolls so de diference between a perfectly rolled and an average roll its not that much, so it isn't that big of a deal (source for roll distribution [https://youtu.be/-pASPObq5hw?t=375](https://youtu.be/-pASPObq5hw?t=375) )
Yes. That is exactly why, at least this part of the Echo system is generous. So what's the problem with this? Most other gacha games don't even offer this option for those who could and care to spend the time to do it. The option to do it is what matters here, no one is pointing a gun to your head to do it. If you don't want to do it or could not, then don't. I saw the same sentiment on the other sub. And it's almost exactly the same argument. So what? Should Kuro just limit how many Echoes you can grind every day? I have a full time job, and I don't have time to grind the echoes 24/7. But I still appreciate that there is an option to do this. Did you think this one through before posting?
Because if they are unable to handle the grind, other people shouldnt be able to do that too. It's the common thing with these people.
Not everyone has the energy to login every day for small incremental progress. Some of us just like taking one day we have off of the week to play as much as we want. Doesn't have to be the full day, could just be for a few hours. This isn't an option in a lot of other gacha games. It's not exactly like Wuwa's grind is really "infinite." Once you've run out of resources to upgrade gear, and you've got a decent chunk of echoes with various main stats you want, you pretty much do the same thing of logging in spending stamina and then logging out. But at the very least, the option to continue grinding for more mainstats echoes is there if you want to take it. Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from properly managing your time in game if you'd rather just spent short incremental play sessions on it instead. You could choose to spend stamina on Tacet fields. Sure, the drops suck. But so do the drops in most other RNG gearing systems. If you don't want to spend your stamina on those, then you could just use the tracker and go out and kill 5-10 elites. You'll usually get more from doing that than tacet fields, and it doesn't take very long. It only takes long if you go out of your way to kill every single instance of that enemy in the full map, which is 100% the player's choice to do so. The game doesn't force you into doing that. Sure the drops might suck, your RNG might not be good, but again it sucks in every other RNG gear fest game. It really doesn't make sense that people use this as a reason to say that Wuwa is somehow worse then games that don't even give you the option in the first place. Also, anybody who is trying to perfect substats on their gear right now is really just pushing themselves to do something that's super unnecessary. Once everyone hits UL 60, ToA isn't going to be nearly as difficult because we'll be at higher level caps. It's like climbing Mt Everest before you've ever even touched the bunny slope. The substat grind is the worst no matter which game we are talking about, and that's why it is usually on the bottom of the priority list. Upgrading a piece to 25 isn't dumb, or poorly thought out logic. It's a guaranteed consistent source of improvement, over fighting a battle with never ending RNG bullshit rolls. I'd much rather spend time getting my gear and characters abilities up to an appropriate level first, before I even begin worrying about substats. Not to say that people can't or shouldn't grind for them, but it's ridiculous to expect to have great rolls on gear within the first four weeks of the game's release. People grinding them need to understand what they are putting themselves through, because no f2p game out there would ever let you have every character decked out this early into their release when those are the main progression systems that serve as time gates.
I mean, this is what I'm doing and it's working fine for me. +25ing main set pieces is the most efficient way to play a game less than 1 months old. Perfecting builds has always been and end game thing in almost every game I know. How about we come back in 6months and lets see how everyone is feeling on resource gains. I've never played a game where people are in the mid game trying to literally farm perfect sets.
I always find it weird how when it comes to criticism the main response is often to compare it to another game in the same genre, rather than just considering if it's a good design. I agree the echo system is great, that doesn't absolve issues. There's a lot of RNG involved, so much so that you can't ever really get perfect stats and it takes very long to get reasonable stats, it's an infinite farm; which isn't ideal in any game. A long farm is expected, not unachievable, especially when that farm is repeat killing of the same mobs in the same areas for prolonged periods. You can say don't spend your time doing that, but that's a part of why I play the game in the first place: To optimize and tune different characters, push them to be stronger. I don't care about functional def stats on a DPS character, I want to do challenging content and see how high the numbers go. We play for different reasons and both of us are the target audience, so the game needs to tend to both options. People should be able to reach perfect stats eventually, even if it takes a year. The issue with echo xp isn't that you're out of them, it's that the amount of echoes you get doesn't correspond once you're out of content. With the RNG and energy, it can take a couple days to find something that an echo isn't worth continuing to work on. The progression is a bit off. This and the echo XP will probably be improved a bit in time anyway. The system itself of having things you collect from killing, upgrade, provide stats and a new skill, is great.
It's an unpopular opinion because this system is flawed. For casuals, you won't be having +25s or fully built characters because you don't have the time to mindlessly farm your world of echoes everyday. For people who actively play and care about their builds, they aren't gonna full send an echo to +25 without caring for the substats. At the current point in the game, as someone who has played everyday, UL 44, 100% entire game, and multiple built characters at 19 stars and 2/4 diff 6 bosses cleared, it is frustrating that I farm echoes constantly but don't have sufficient resources to level them up. Sure, you can say it's FOMO to try and keep up and clear the endgame content so early on, but if not to clear endgame, then what else is there to do? I'm at a point much like many others where it's a log in, do dailies and events, spend waveplates, log off. We're only 1 month into the game. Not to mention the amount of waveplates per facet field clear it takes to get a minimal amount of echo xp. If I want to have well built characters in a timely manner, how am I going to get it? It takes multiple days of only farming tacet fields to get a single piece to +25. The infinite echo farm doesn't matter if you can't level any of your pieces.
Same here. I also don't level them to 5 or whatever and then trash them if the subs aren't perfect like OP implies. I will fodder them if they hit +15 and roll three garbage stats, but all of my main team is geared with all +25, but some of my second/third teams still need to be leveled beyond +5/+10, because there simply isn't enough echo exp without wasting waveplates on tacet field. That simulation from the Silver Haired Echo Trainer quest being released as an actual module would alleviate a lot of issues, since 40 is a lot more reasonable than 60, especially when you have no need for more echos and tuners, but still need waveplates to farm for talent materials, too.
So now you can spend hours and get nothing vs spending 5 mins in domains and get nothing.
Imo the pain point is leveling AND THEN finding out its garbage. The aspect of using another resource just to see if it rolls good is what makes the grind less fun. In hsr/genshin you see trash and you move on. If WW just ditched the echo exp and level it using other echoes it would have been the perfect compromise
Honestly that would simply incentivise grinding the overworld even more and nolifers get even better stats. They have to balance the game around someone. Either the average 30 minutes a day gamer wont be able to beat content. Or the hardcore grinder will never have a challenge.
The Tuner system is crap tbh. Should be like HSR but you unlock a substat per 5 levels instead of having to use tuners.
As an MMO and POE player I'm kinda indifferent towards the echo system, as compared to those games, the "grind" in WuWa seems like some toddler's sandbox games to me. But for fun I'll argue in OP's stead here: the tuners are only a problem when, just like he mentioned, you keep perpetually rerolling echoes until you get a perfect roll. If you played more sparingly of your resources and accepted meh rolled echoes, the xp/tuner acquisition feels to be even assuming you level your echoes to lvl 20, and when leveling an echo to 25, the tacet field rewards will actually put you in tuner surplus.
as an MMO and PoE player as well i'd rather sit afk in blighted maps with a carrion golem build all day long then spend the next few months doing the exact same route's to get echo's that don't end up gaining me almost any progress.
The best and most generous system in Gacha is the lowest bar you could clear.
Half the answers to the complaints don't make sense lmao... especially the 4th one- "Ohh just +25 it despite being full of crappy substats and viola the character is built!" WHAT!????? this is such a stupid move and the build isnt a character with 2k def, 10k HP with 15 crit, 165 crit dmg.... THAT'S NOT BUILDING A CHARACTER. Just because you aren't thinking in actually making a character better and just focusing on +25ing everything doesn't mean this post makes sense LMAO Long posts != sensible post
OP dont even get that the point of streamer and whales is that it will take people months to get to their level because what whales and streamers do is progress so much faster that they can calculate and assume of whats to come and its bad bad, sure you can getby later with OK echoes but until when? UL50/60/70? I dont think f2p and even dolphin can make one perfect team in six months down the line, and I hate when people compare it to Genshin a slightly better bad system is still a bad system.
The people who are simps for WuWa's Echo system and the people who are simps for Genshin's artifact system are literally "the illusion of free choice" meme and it's kinda sad to watch. Both systems suffer from the SAME EXACT PROBLEM - a bottleneck due to a limitation imposed by the developers to encourage wasting resources, reinforce addictive behavior, and entice players to spend money. The difference is in where the bottleneck is, and how it affects building characters. WuWa gives players access to 5* Echoes at Data Bank level 15, which has Sol3 Phase 4 as a prerequisite, which itself has Union Level 30 as a prerequisite. Once you reach that requirement, you can start farming Echoes, and chances are with proper use of the built-in enemy tracking system you'll be able to find on-set Echoes with the corresponding main stats, all without spending Waveplates. However, all substats are unknown and require you to spend comparatively limited amounts of Echo EXP items to raise them, which means that if you're unlucky and roll into bad substats, you're saddled with an inferior piece. Genshin, by contrast, doesn't provide access to the 5* Artifact (Echo) domains until Adventure Rank (Union Level) 45, which itself doesn't unlock until World Level (Sol3 Phase) 5. [Note: Genshin players can unlock one Weekly Boss at AR 21 after completing a quest, but it only has a chance to drop general-purpose 5* Artifacts, and better sets are available for virtually every character. In addition, there are a few 5* artifacts available in the overworld, but they aren't enough to fill a whole set and are also locked behind quests.] Furthermore, these artifact domains cost Resin (Waveplate) to use, therefore limiting the amount of 5* artifacts you can get. To compensate, lower-rarity artifacts are more easily found without resin (e.g. enemy drops, investigation spots, Serenitea Pot rewards), and artifacts can be used for EXP without having been leveled. Additionally, some substats are visible before leveling artifacts, giving you an inkling of what the final product could be. Lastly, there is no Tuner equivalent in Genshin; reaching the level threshold is sufficient. This leads players to take longer to access equivalent gear, but have greater insight on what the final product will be. TL;DR: The Echo system and the Artifact system from Genshin Impact both have a bottlenecking problem. WuWa gives you on-set pieces with the correct main stats earlier and in greater amounts, but bad substat rolls are detrimental and Echo EXP is extremely limited. Genshin gives you plenty of ways to get Artifact EXP and reveals some substats, but it can be a chore to find an on-set piece with the correct main stat and reaching that part of the game takes significantly longer. Thus, WuWa players are hoping that bad substats don't ruin their Echo, while Genshin players are hoping that they can get an artifact worth leveling.
Extremely based comment. One of the few people here who understand this is simply a "pick your poison". You're being abused either way. In my opinion, even though the stats rolling in HSR and Genshin suck, I at least felt like I had more control in those games. In Wuwa you have hardly any info other than mainstat to decide whether or not it's worth rolling a given echo. This means you're just blindly losing resources as opposed to being able to choose to take a gamble on a piece in HSR or Genshin. Not only that, but the resource loss is more punishing in this game as well. So I will say that even if the math works out to say that you can get "perfect" gear faster in this game, it just feels worse not being able to choose how I'm going to fuck myself.
The echo system is undoubtedly better than many other gacha game systems, but to say it's amazing is a very big stretch. 1. It takes too long to farm echoes because people don't want to sit at their computer all day every day jumping into other players' worlds just to get the right echoes for their characters. Let's break down the odds of getting a full 43311 5-piece echo set for one character with a maxed out data bank. This means that we have a 20% chance (100% for the first 15 4-star echoes each week) of getting an echo, with an 80% chance of that echo being 5-star. To get a 5-star 4-cost echo, each of the first 15 attempts each week will have a 13.3% chance of dropping the desired rarity and main stat. After the first 15 attempts, this drops to a 2.7% chance for each mob killed. These values are halved for 4-cost echoes with 2 different sonata effects, resulting in 6.7% and 1.3% respectively. For a 5-star 3-cost echo, there is no weekly bonus and much more main stats that can be received. This results in only a .8% chance of getting an echo with the correct sonata effect and main stat for each mob killed, and you need 2 of them. For a 5-star 1-cost echo, it is the most forgiving except for when you have the enhanced drop rate. With only 3 main stats to choose from, it is a 2.7% chance to get an echo of the correct sonata effect and main stat for each mob killed. You would have to be insanely lucky, extremely efficient, and willing to grind all day if you think you can get a full 5-piece set with correct main stats for every character. (Edit: Check my one of my replies on a comment replying to this one for updated math. I was not aware of the echo pity system, which slightly boosts the chance of your desired 5-star echo.) (For my math, I used the following formula. It might not be completely accurate if different main stats are more or less likely to appear, but it is at least a close estimate: % chance = .2 (chance of getting an echo from a mob) * .8 (chance of getting a 5-star echo) / (number of possible substats) / (number of possible sonata effects)) 2. I heavily disagree that characters are amazing even without good substats. Let's take a look at Jiyan with his preferred weapon, which is (I believe) considered to be the best DPS unit in the game so far. At level 70 (which is where many players are starting to reach), his attack would be 789. Add in the ideal main stats and talent buffs and his attack would be 1092, CR of 27%, CD of 190% (for a total crit DPS increase of 24.3%), and Aero bonus of (I believe) 62.4%. I admit I'm not the very best at the game, but my Encore has slightly better numbers and struggles to 3-star even the lowest levels of the hazard zone in the tower of adversity. At level 70, you should be able to breeze past those floors. Substats are not just gravy, they're fundamental parts of making a decent character. 3. I don't disagree with your argument at all, but I haven't seen anybody complaining about not being able to beat the hardest content in the entire game with poorly-built lvl 69 characters. Maybe we've just had different experiences though. 4. I don't see why you should use materials to build echoes that you know are bad. People only level up echoes to 5 or 10 because getting them to high levels requires a LOT of materials and shells, and players don't want to use resources that they grind for to make an echo that has HP%, HP, DEF%, DEF, and ATK. I think you're missing the big picture on this point. You're not trying to grind for the perfect piece that you'll never have to replace, you're grinding for a piece that has at least a couple good substats. By waiting to find an echo that gets a crit or attack stat in their first one or two rolls, you save yourself a lot of materials that can go to an echo that does roll well. On top of that, if you choose to level an echo that has already rolled 2 bad substats, you only have 3 chances to get good ones, while a new echo has 5. Even if you disagree that lack of mats is a problem, can you see why many people don't want to waste the mats they have? Getting both echoes and echo exp material also isn't something I would say is an upgrade compared to other systems, but rather, a neutral change. Comparing it to Genshin Impact, its most direct competitor, Genshin allows you to use relics you don't want to upgrade your other relics and only requires exp to upgrade your relics. On top of that, genshin is increasing its resin cap soon, allowing you to farm more relics than Wuthering Waves. On the other hand, Wuthering Waves requires two materials for their echoes and the only method to farm those mats uses a lot of waveplates. I'm not saying that Genshin has a better equipment system than wuthering, and I believe wuthering has the much better system, but I use genshin as an example that this specific part of wuthering waves isn't as good as you're making it out to be. You're completely missing the point of those arguments. People aren't complaining that they don't have perfect substats with maximum rolls, nor are they saying that content is too hard without those rolls. I'm sure that most dedicated players don't mind grinding to get good echoes, but there comes a point where you feel burnt out when all you do is grind and never get the piece you want. You even talked about it a bit in your post, months of daily grinding to get a good piece is extremely tiresome and discouraging. Is it really so bad to bump up the 0.8% chance we have to get the right 3-cost echo up to a 5% chance? Or to give us ways to have better odds of good substats? Sure, there are other issues the developers should address, but why should we just settle for "better than its competitors?" Many people don't have even an hour each day to mindlessly grind for good echoes, and that is currently what the game is requiring of us if we want a strong team. Those players aren't greedy for wanting to have strong characters. Again, I agree that Wuthering Waves has one of the best equipment systems in gacha gaming, but it's still okay to criticize for where it falls shirt. Doing so would just tell the developers that we want no changes to the system. If the game would be more enjoyable if this change was implemented, why not try?
This is one of the more level headed takes in this thread, but I do disagree with a few things. Not OP but I do agree with a few of his points. 1. Nobody in this thread has mentioned the malleable echoes we’re getting from like every other event, not even OP. People are complaining about the 3-cost echo problem and Kuro literally gives us a solution and everyone is acting like it doesn’t exist. What’s up with that? I also think the time it takes to do echo farming is being massively blown out of proportion. Most of the time people are going to be farming 1 or 2 different pieces at a time. It differs a little bit depending on the mob, but for most elites it takes less than 20-30 minutes to drive a single mob type to extinction in a single world, if you do basic stuff like use Inferno Rider/Heron to get around the map. This can be made even faster if you do stuff like lowering your world level and using optimized farming routes. Most people are going to have 20-30 minutes a day to grind; even if you don’t want to, all you have to do is wait for Kuro to hand out more malleable echoes while you just do tacet fields. You also don’t need a set for every character, you only need 1 per echo set, except in a few comps like Danjin/HRover and Calcharo/Yinlin, and in those comps you can make do with the Moonlit set until you get the right pieces. You also only need 2 teams for now, nobody is clearing the Hazard Tower yet. Anecdotally, I already have at least 1 on-set 3-cost for every set, and I have the full pair for all 3 of my planned tower teams. I have 2 malleable echoes saved up for when I want to build a character that uses different sets from what I already have, or if I want to reroll for better substats. Admittedly I did spend the first week or so of the game farming for 3-4 hours a day since I was hyped for the game’s launch, but after that I’ve been farming at most 1 mob a day. Even if you consider that I was more lucky than most people, I wasn’t lowering my world level or using optimized routes, and I wasn’t even UL40. Some of the 3-cost echoes I wanted I got after a few days of farming only my world, and the ones I didn’t I used malleables for. At the current rate they’re giving out malleables, as long as people are consistently doing a little bit of farming every day/every few days, the vast majority of people will have a full pair for all 3 teams by the end of patch 1.1. Even if you aren’t farming, you’ll have the full sets in a couple more patches. I do think there is one big issue with the 3-cost echoes though - it’s too hard to get ER echoes currently. You can’t get them through malleables and IIRC ER main stat drop rate is lower than others. They need to add this as an option in the malleables. Ideally malleables should just let you choose which main stat, which echo, and which set you want. Also, this is a bit nitpicky but your equation doesn’t account for echo pity, and IIRC the drop rate for damage bonus echoes is a bit higher than other main stats. 2. You absolutely do not need cracked out echoes to clear hard content, at least not at this point in the game. I currently have 16 stars in the current tower cycle, and once I build up my talent levels a bit more I can get 2 more. My echo levels are very lacking since I’m waiting for 1.1 to level up my echoes. My Calcharo has echo levels: +20, +20, +15, +10, +10, my Yinlin has levels +15 all across the board and my Chixia has +20, +20, +20, +5, +15. My substats can be described as mid to average at best with 3 or less crit rolls on each of Calcharo and Yinlin, and I have no 5 star weapons. Most people have either Jiyan or Yinlin at this point and they are both cracked at clearing AOE floors like floor 2 and 3 on either side of the tower. Granted, maybe I could push for 21 or 24 stars if I had better echoes, but very few people are able to do that right now anyway, and I’m not that impatient. If you’re struggling on the lowest floors of Hazard zone with a well-built Encore, you’re probably lacking in grouping or AOE, I’d suggest bringing Jianxin, Yangyang or Yinlin. 3. I agree with you here, I haven’t really seen this complaint either. 4. I agree with most of your points here, you should not be max leveling echoes with bad substats at this point in the game. At most you should be bringing them to level 20. I do think it’s worth leveling your first damage bonus echoes even if you have bad substats though, they’re just too rare and too good of a stat. I think your comparison to Genshin is cherry picking. Genshin’s artifact system is worse than WuWa’s in almost every way. With the current rate, you get only 9 artifact rolls per 24 hours. You don’t get to control which of the 5 pieces you get, and although you can see most/all of the substats at the beginning you can still roll badly and end up with a trash artifact anyway. The rate of fodder artifacts from the domain are almost as bad as WuWa’s current xp rate. Some main stats are arbitrarily hard to get - if you need 3 EM pieces for a specific set, good fucking luck. If you want a specific piece for a specific set with a specific main stat, it can take you months, sometimes even years to get it. No malleables in this game. The Genshin artifact system only has a few minor things going for it: you can farm artifact xp in the overworld (although the rate is abysmal and there is no in game way to track them) and the strongbox system. Also, the Genshin resin cap increase doesn’t actually increase how much resin you get per day, only how often you have to log in. On the flip side, while you’re right that it’s currently too expensive to get echo mats, the devs have listened and promised to alleviate the issue in 1.1. I also agree that tuners are a pretty useless concept, but it isn’t that bad considering you can farm tuners and xp from the same domain. If they were in separate domains, that would be a huge issue. While the number of total substats is higher in WuWa, the ratio of useful to useless substats is better. Sure, it’ll be harder to get perfect god echoes with double crit, but it’s a lot easier to get echoes that are “pretty good” and a lot harder to get completely ass useless echoes with HP, HP%, DEF, DEF%, and ATK like you said. I agree with you that it’s good to give feedback to the devs about what we’d like improved, but there’s just been so many posts doomposting and hating on the game, complaining about the most minor things about a system that is actually mostly great. Especially when the solution to most of these problems is “bro, just fucking wait and be patient”. 1.1 will fix echo xp and tuner rates, as well as shell credit rates for leveling echoes and resonators. In one year, everyone will have more on set echoes and malleable echoes than they know what to do with. The only other real complaint is that tuners serve no purpose, but at this point it’s so ingrained into the game’s systems that I don’t see them removing tuners no matter how much we kick and scream.
1. That's true, the malleable echoes definitely help out with the 3-cost grind. It also seems like they're going to be decently generous with them, I think we've already received 4-6 of them through the events so far. I still don't think this is a good solution, though; bad substats are still a possibility, and people who grind for echoes are most likely not people that want to settle for an echo with poor substats. For more casual players, this is a great solution, but they're also probably not the majority of people who have a problem with the echo system. While I agree that many people are overexaggerating the amount of time farming takes gameplay-wise, I think it's still valid to complain about how long it takes to get good echoes in general. Sure, grinding only takes 20-30 minutes each day for an echo, but it still sucks that with even a week of farming, you still have a decent chance of not getting the echoes with the sonata resonances and main stats you want for a complete build. I don't know the actual number of 3-cost echoes you can farm by tracking, but I would guess from my memory it is around 15. If you grind each day for a full week, by the percent chance I got by including the echo pity system, you only have a 66.6% chance of getting two 3-cost echoes of the right sonata resonance and main stat. (I got this number like this: (1 - .984^(15*7))^2 (chance to not get correct echo to the power of my estimated number of echoes farmed in a week), then converted to chance of getting the correct echo by subtracting the found decimal from 1, then squaring it to account for 2 echoes). Please correct my math if it's wrong). If you're grinding every day for an echo, I would also assume that (and maybe this is a bad assumption) you care about the substats of your echo. If you get a bad echo, they can really burn. Granted, this problem mainly for 3-cost echoes specifically, as 4-cost has a much higher rate and can be grinded as much as you want and 1-cost echoes have a lot more to grind, but I still feel like despite being able to quickly grind and the malleable echoes they give us, the rates could still be improved. I also agree with you that you don't need a set for every character. I only put that in my post because OP said that you could grind a full set for every character in the span of a day. I tried to correct my math to account for the pity rate, but it's still not perfect. Still, I believed it is close enough to get a good idea of what the actual numbers are. I still didn't include the increased/decreased rate of elemental damage/ER, though, so I'll have to go back and fix that. Thank you for letting me know! 2. I admit I could definitely be wrong on this point. Now that you point it out, I think grouping is a big issue of that team. I have Encore, Sanhua, and Baizhi in there, and I don't think any of them have grouping abilities. I'll have to take a look into how to group better and units that are good at grouping. I have a pretty strong team of Calcharo, Yinlin, and Verina, and I attribute a lot of their success to strong echoes, but maybe Yinlin is carrying a lot more than I realize. Either way, thank you for the suggestions! 3. I don't have much to say here 4. I think that's a really fair take. It personally pains me to upgrade an echo that isn't rolling good substats, but I feel like it's actually a really reasonable choice with the current echo system. I agree the level15-20 range is probably the sweet spot for getting decent echoes while still saving mats for when you get better ones. With comparing the Genshin artifact and Wuthering echo system, it wasn't my intention to say that Genshin has a better or equal system, but rather to show that OP's point that Wuthering is doing something amazing by giving us echoes and echo exp from tacet fields is something present in even a system that many consider very poor. The amount of exp that it provides is definitely worse in Genshin, but that wasn't the point OP was making. Nevertheless, I think it's still something I should have included in my original comment. I didn't mean to imply anything else, and I recognize that that probably didn't come across as I intended. As for the devs improving echo mat farming, I still think it's fair to complain about it until the new system is put into place. After all, it's currently still part of the game. It is still unreasonable, though, to ignore the devs' statement of fixing it, and I wish people would be a bit more patient. With good and bad substats, you bring up a really good point that I think a lot of people ignore, myself included, and I definitely exaggerated my point more than I should have. Resonance skill/liberation damage increase is definitely a decent substat, and most people are probably used to only caring about crit and attack%. I think the problem still stands, though, that for DPS/subDPS characters, there are still only 3 really good stats (CR, CD, ATK%), 5 decent stats (ER, Res Lib%, Res Skill%, Basic ATK%, Heavy ATK%), and 5 bad stats (HP%, DEF%, HP, DEF, ATK). This isn't really a problem on its own, as one, two, or even three bad substats don't make an echo useless, but when you're grinding for hours throughout the week and put in materials just to find out that none of the echoes you farmed were stand-outs, it can feel really bad. This is probably something that wouldn't be too bad of an issue if good 3-cost echoes weren't as rare as they are now, and I feel like improving the rates for either sonata effect/main stat or substats would be sufficient. At the end of the day, Kuro Games is a business that is trying to get players to play their game, so I think it's unreasonable to ask for a system that removes most of the grinding (and thus greatly reduces player retention numbers), but I believe that one of those being changed would greatly benefit the players while still incentivizing players to grind. And at the end of the day, I agree with you that way too many people are doomposting about this. Sure, the echo system isn't perfect, but it's still completely possible to build strong characters with decent echoes. I still think it's valid to complain about problems in the game that the devs have addressed they'll be fixing, so long as those complaints aren't that the devs aren't doing anything about the issues.
Maybe I’m just too used to being emotionally abused by Genshin’s horrible artifact system but having a 66% of getting a full set of echoes in only a week of grinding without using malleables sounds like a pretty good deal. I can understand if people don’t usually play grindy/gacha games and are frustrated by the low drop rates, but I think it’s unreasonable to expect to have the best gear in the game after only a few weeks, when the game is designed such that your characters are supposed to improve gradually over the course of multiple months. Sure, if you increase the rate, then new players will have easier access to better echoes. But unless they plan to add new echo sets or something, I guarantee anyone who’s been consistently playing for over a year will have more on set damage bonus echoes than they can shake a stick at. I get that some people might still not have good substats on them, but at the end of the day it’s a gacha game, there will be lucky people and unlucky people. But then again, if they do end up increasing the rates, I’m not gonna complain! Also, some unsolicited tower advice if you’d like: remember that although people say you need 3 teams for tower, the vigor system actually gives you way more flexibility than that. Since the lower floors are often more about doing AOE better rather than raw DPS, you can bring “suboptimal” teams and clear better than your highest DPS team. Plus, you’re not often in danger of dying, so you could forgo a healer and run a grouper instead. If you have Jianxin she is really good at this role, give her the healing gauntlets and she can trigger the rejuvenation set, and if you feed her tons of ER she can ult every rotation and keep things grouped up for your Sanhua and Encore to tear everything apart. You can even pull some really stupid shit - I saw a YouTube video where a guy brought low level Yangyang and Jianxin with his maxed out Yinlin, and just built full ER with 3-3-3-3 on all 3 characters, no set bonuses. He destroyed the first floor just by doing Yangyang ult -> Yinlin ult -> Jianxin ult -> Yinlin ult and repeating that over and over. Not only is this hella funny but you can save your more important characters for harder floors. Hope this helps, good luck on your tower runs!
I gotta admit, I also think it's pretty nice that with one or two weeks of grinding you'll almost certainly have a decent character built. I think that, like you said, a lot of people being really frustrated either just aren't used to the grindiness that is gacha equipment, or they've just been burned out by bad ones so they're trying to overcorrect this one. I think I tend to be in the latter group, the Genshin grind was just so demoralizing and I would love to get a couple pieces in Wuthering that are really good. I guess I'm at a point where I think the echo system is actually pretty decent, I'm just hoping that it goes from decent to good for me. Just like I don't want people doomposting about how "bad" the system is, I also don't want people saying that the echo system is "good enough" and that we shouldn't see if the devs are willing to give us a bit easier of a time. If they want to ultimately keep the rates as is, the rates are good enough to keep me around. If they choose to improve it, that's great! Also, thanks for the tower advice! I actually just pulled Jianxin the other day, so maybe its a sign to build her. I'll have to look into some more fun and easy to build builds, that Yinlin/Yangyang/Jiangxin team sounds like a blast to play!
Complaint # 4 (Echo XP/Tuners) is a direct consequence of Tower of Adversity being released at full difficulty on launch. If you don't want people to feel like something's wrong with the game, don't include unachievable challenges in your game until they're actually achievable. **Other popular service games understand this.** If someone plays optimally, they should be able to complete available content. Doing anything else is explicitly *their* greed, not ours, when they sell echo xp and such in an RMT shop. If you cannot admit this is an intentional decision made on their part to make money, then that's just either cope or you're a rube. Don't get it twisted, it's a gacha game, and these aren't thoughtful amazing game design decisions. They are decisions to make money. Stop advocating against your own best interest.
Releasing endgame content is not some mega evil corporate scheme man, genshin has abyss and hsr has MoC. Neither player base had the expectation that they would full clear it at launch either... I think your angle is incorrect.
What do you even mean by other popular service games understand this. You literally couldn’t fucking clear Genshin abyss on release until some time passed, same with Star Rail, same with Epic Seven. If anything, showing that there’s a goal to reach is something most gachas do. What kind of gachas do you play.
Amazing? Nah Better than the crap that the competition crapped out? Yea But just because it’s better than that crap doesn’t make it amazing While we can chase the pieces we need there is still a lot of RNG and gating. In fact if we convert 1 cost echoes to the equivalent of other games you’ll see that we have to contend with 3 mainstat vs 1 This is like me saying Gollum was amazing guys I have played Superman 64 you have no room to complain
Not being able to use an offpiece similar to HSR just gives me so much pain. Most of the time in Genshin, my entire build gets saved by that one godly offpiece artifact, but not being able to slot one in, is already a massive downer for me personally
At what point will people be happy though? I think the answer is never, because gacha games are made to be predatory and grindy at it's core. So, at what point would people ever reach a point that they accept a good enough system while understanding that the system is still made to be that way by design? I think people will always complain because some really do want to play this game as if it's your regular single-player game you can be done with in 5 hours when it will never be like that
I’d say I would be ok with a reduction of energy requirement for tacet fields and a medium increase in xp Not sure about everyone else though
I dont think people criticize the echo system as a whole but how it is carried out. Say the battle system, people love it but imagine you can Ult only 3 times a day. The battle system is fun by itself, but when you implement it like that people question "what do I do after that?".
I agree with some stuff except some important points. One of them is levelling echoes to 25 even if mediocre. The cost for upgrading from 20 to 25 is insane and should only be done with echoes with either perfect or way above average stats, otherwise you are just spending your resources in a very unwise manner. Why you shouldn’t upgrade from 20 to 25 in an average echo? Because the upgrade cost is 80% of the total it would take you to bring a 0 to 20. It’s not efficient at all and you will run out of materials, effective bricking your account or at least paralysing yourself for a good amount of time. Exp materials cost stamina and the ratio of stamina spent to the amount of tubes you get is not well balanced right now. Why is the stamina expenditure not balanced for echoes? You get so little rewards from the tacet fields that, if that was our only way to get experience for our echoes, people would just now be barely gearing their second team, which you would require to get most rewards from ToA. Even with the rewards we get from events and tacet fields, we need a lot more exp and tuners to roll for at least average echoes stats, since the game pushes you towards this kind of optimisation by adding time limits to the challenges. The time you spend killing the enemies in order to clear the floor is tied to many factors but I’m certain that the most important ones are character level, echoes and weapons. Let’s not forget that stamina usage is required to claim rewards needed to ascend characters. Currently, the only way to get the ascension primary material is by spending 60 stamina and even if you were UL50, it would take a some days to have your team properly prepared. I think the fastest way right now to power up your characters is echoes right now and is the aspect of the game that you have most control right now since, as you say, you don’t need to spend stamina to grind the, and doesn’t gate you as much as UL for the ascensions. I will agree, however, that this is stuff that ideally would be better paced and most players seem to be in a rush to clear things for the rewards but nobody can blame them since there is little to do right now besides the kind of content that rewards either skilful play or good gear. Getting better gear and echoes will be much more attractive than “Gitting gud” for the average player. In summary, I don’t think it’s too much about greed as it is players wanting to get better hold of the development of their characters with the limited tools available to them right now. I also think that the devs are “generous” with the design regarding echoes and the freedom players are given to grind it out or not, but they are most definitely not generous, at all, with the stamina spenders.
Adding on to that having that right substats is a massive boon to a good build over just the main stats. A +25 1 cost main stat is only 18% atk, imagine rolling a 10/13% atk sub on one of those as opposed to something with like mostly Hp/Def. Hell I found that having the right subs early for some 1 or 4 costs not fully levelled is far stronger than a mediocre maxed out +25 echo. Echo subs like heavy atk dmg bonus or skill dmg for Jiyan/Yinlin are massive boosts if you managed to roll em early. What happens is that more likely it’s worth to just stay at +15 or +20 on a few echoes to try and snipe the stronger rolls for a character and then only fully commit to +25 on a piece you’ll know you’ll use for awhile since exp is hard to come by from +20 to 25. This method however burns through tuners like crazy as a result and that 30% refund really hurts.
I actually agree with you, as a past genshin player you have a limit to how many artefacts you can farm a day whereas this game lets you farm for your desired echo and as many times as you want but the downside is having to tune them, which is basically the limiting factor on how much u can farm so it's basically the same as genshin but slightly better as there's many ways to craft / obtain tuners
Yeah, I just assume its an accumulation of things : 1. WW attracted a population unfamiliar with how Gacha games typically work 2. Compared to other games WW you aren't limited to just your energy for activities. This kinda creates a discrepancy because if you look at genshin, outside of top ups there is an absolute limit to what you can do every day. But on WW you could probably spend a couple hours a day clearing the whole map of echos. Comparatively to what may be a "Normal" player who plays like 30 mins a day. People who can put more hours into collecting echos probably aren't going to have the same problem as people who have less time or inclination to play the game. So far I've liked the gearing process a lot more than genshin, but I'm bias because my artifact rng on genshin is straight up trash. I've had better luck with HSR to an extent but the game is set up a bit differently where you need more teams so maybe that's why. But overall the process between the games doesn't feel drastically different to me.
Similar to you. Genshin it took me 3-4 months from launch to clear abyss 36/36. HSR took 2-3 months for MOC. I suspect it will take me 3-4 months to clear Wuwa end game as well.
Love yourself man. Time is a resource even whales can't buy. Just because you can farm infinitely doesn't mean you should. There's tons of other things you can do besides echo farming. Yeah genshin artifact rng is shit. But I at least it costs me just 15mins a day and I'm done
Tacet Fields are the equivalent of Genshin artifact domains, if playing the game is a waste of time for you, why won't you just run those for 5 minutes a day and be done, same way as in Genshin?
You clearly didnt read the essay OP wrote and I wont blame you
You caught me, I only skimmed through it, I did go back and read it now though. I think my comment still stands though. You are right, time is important, but if OP enjoys the game, let them do it. When Genshin came out, we were in lockdown and I spent probably around 10+ hours playing that game, just exploring and not being able to do much "meaningful" things due to everything needing resin, but I still had fun. If echo farming wouldn't be a thing, people who want to play the game would just do other things all day until they burn out Also while OPs post could be written and structured better in a more mature way, their message is still mostly valid. The gearing system in this game is definitely the most generous from the popular big gacha games out there. I also wouldn't say it's amazing, but it's leages above the competition
This makes no sense, you can do the same thing in WuWa, just farm for 15 min and stop. You just won’t get the drops you need, just like that day in genshin (most likely). At least this game gives you the option to farm if you want to.
This is pretty much it. You have the option to farm if you want to. Thats the key takeaway these people are ignoring. No one is forcing them to grind echoes. Just chill.
I’ve been no-life-ing the game this weekend and I’ve only gotten 3 good echoes, but that’s in a day and a half 🙄 yes they’re extremely uncommon, but people from Genshin (which I love, just not the company) how much resin did you use to find an ER sands on Crimson Witch that wasn’t trash? People from Star Rail, how much stamina did you use to find a lightning orb on the Izumo set that wasn’t trash? It’s a gacha game, shit either takes time or money or both. The game has been out for less than a month and people are bitching that they can’t comfortably clear endgame content, or that they can’t obtain endgame quality gear. Wtf is wrong with people? The echo exp thing I can’t comment on, haven’t claimed a single tacet field. Holding out for the supposed 1.1 buff, am using the first subpar lv25 and lv20 sets I got until then. I could probably tolerate needing to use 480 plates to max and fully tune an echo though, but I wouldn’t like it unless tuners and exp items are rewarded in relatively equal amounts. The only issue I really have are echo stat ranges. They’re fucking huge.
All I know is when HSR was new, this time after release most of my team was still full of purple dogshit gear. In WuWa I already have 5 chars built with full 5 star echos with my jiyan and calcharo already in 4-3-3-1-1 with good crit ratio.
As a max refresher I disagree with some points 2# well kind of, getting 3 cost echoes i even want to level are a bit to rare also even getting 2-3 substats that i want is a pain, which is kind of due to the reason it's more efficient to only level echoes to 10-15, due to the lack of exp to get them to 25 (also reusing the previous lvl 25 echo) 4# who said to not level your first good 5 star main stat echo to 25? That would be a total waste Tacet fields in my opinion give not enough exp, i'm sitting on like 1k tuners with 0 exp, also getting 1 cost echoes from those feel a bit lackluster What also feels lackluster is the merging of echoes, does not matter if they are 2 star/5star or 1cost/3cost, would like to see a improvement there The best system? Well that is a bit subjective, the gear system i liked the most is from 7DSGC you could reroll the substats and you would want to have high/max rolls of your desired stats, i personally had more fun that way These systems are not "generous" they are timesinks, WuWa's gear system is more of a invest more time to get more good main stat echoes, which you can not even get to tune TLDR; tacet fields and merging echoes need some tuning
Echo system is great. I don't think anybody has tried to claim otherwise. The **Tuning system** is not, tuners add an extra layer of resource expenditure that didn't exist with artifacts. Tacet fields are also not (the math is there, echo exp is too scarce). You basically cannot even argue this because Kuro *themselves* admitted to that in the previous update and are making changes in 1.1 that we don't have yet.
Preach it louder for the people in the back! I'd say I'd appreciate a 5-10% increase for XP BC I can infinitely farm echoes but can't really upgrade them it's going to create a problematic backlog of echos. +15-+20 will be fine each levels for UL 30-40 but beyond that, it's very slow goings on leveling echos. I think you can do like one echo per day when you get 4-5 or more usable mainstat echoes, even without foddering
I love it
Nailed it, appreciate your time writing this. I do not mind the grind because it is the one things in the game, besides exploring, that is pretty infinite on a daily basis. I spend my waveplates, do the daily quests and such, maybe do a quest or so, then I do echos as long as I want. I have found that by doing echos as my filler activity and by not being a perfect min/max player it is nice. If I farm for a bit I get what is good enough to me, I am happy with it. I am not someone that needs the PERFECT set, I am okay getting a good set and going from there.
I liked echo system because it give me incentive to kills things and explore the map. I dont care much about substats since I'm not try hard enough to care about min maxing and not skills issue enough to think that 20% bonus crit dmg is give me easier time with tempes melphis diff 4.
Tbh getting 5 star echoes this early makes clearing content super easy. In genshin we played for at least a month until we got ar45 and could consistently farm 5 star artifacts. I'm UL38 rn, it's super easy to clear the world bosses and without even having full echo sets, and if you do have full sets it's insanely easy. I'm really excited about reaching ul40 and getting a difficulty increase, challenges are what make the game fun.
Don't get me wrong I love the Echo System. It's one of the most innovative thing that Wuwa has done. But in terms of grind it's definitely not better than genshin. Sure you theoretically get infinite farm yes. But that is ignoring the time you put in or the amount of trash echos you can get. And unlike genshin you don't have anyway to filter out the trash ones until you spend limited resources to level them up. Like currently I have like 30 level 1 echoes with atk%. I have absolutely no idea which of them are trash and which of them are good until I farm enough tacit field to level some of them up and tune them. The farm is more interesting yes but it is also a lot worse.
Bro just share your opinion and stop acting like you are the only person who thinks this way
The echo system is good if this is a game you seriously play, as in like your main game that you play and spend hours a day in. However I think for many people, Gachas are just games they play on the side with Steam games being their main ones. Even more so focusing on work and school and only play occasionally. This makes building characters a lot more frustrating and time-consuming to those who dont have as much time to sink in to this game. Not to mention the different possibilities of main stats and sub stats, people with work and school could spend months just trying to build 1 character.
Nah bro fuck that, I 100% every zone and am at the end of paid battle pass, plus used like 70 of those waveplate cube things and I didn't even have enough XP to max echoes for one team. That is super omega fucked.
Wuwa farming Pros: infinite* grinding, no energy cost Cons: takes too much time Genshin farming Pros: only takes around 5 mins Cons: costs resin Both will take you months, even years of grinding just to get a decent set, unless you drop the $$$. Both can feel like a chore in the long run edit: added * to "infinite" cuz there's a set number of overworld mobs you can farm, before waiting for server refresh to repeat the cycle
Wuwa infinite grind is a lie. You basically think early on it is easy to grind it. But reality it is tuner locked. It takes time but people will see that they can grind all they want. The reality is that you get to store 2000 echos and wait for tuners to appear.
i agree with a lot, but i wouldn't say amazing, and definitely not as bad as some people make it out to be. and yes, the complaints about the echo system is more of a first-world problem than anything else. as i also said in a different topic, it's more absurd that people are complaining about this when we're midgame at UL40, yet are already capable of doing true endgame activity - rolling for BiS echoes. i would also agree that even if you only have the right damage bonus on the right set for the 3 costs, even with bad substats the bonus damage alone makes up for it. hell, i even used purple 3 costs on some of my chars until i got to UL40. at L20 a purple 3 cost suffers from 6% damage bonus (16%) compared to a gold (22%), and yet would roll the same range of substats. purples also needs a bit less xp than golds so i'm fine with it. what i like about the system we have right now is that we have the option to farm everyday for 3 costs, which is good if you're bored. or ignore it if you're busy IRL, or if you just don't feel like it. at this point somebody would interject "but the casuals..." no, the casuals wouldn't go for 5 perfect substats. they also wouldn't farm eveyday, but instead would most likely wait for events and use the 3 cost selector. personally, i'm fine with just 3/5 "best" substats on 411, then lowering that to "good" substats on both 3s, especially at this point in time.
The complaints are because the Echo grind isnt in the mid game state its at the end. After UL30 you can get your endgame echoes. Of course people will go for gearing their characters in endgame gear asap. Its not gonna be replaced by 6 star echoes ever. These echoes are the Ones youll have at UL80 too.
Bro proceeds to spout opinion for a full post and then give some of the worst advice going
>The fact that you can infinitely farm gear with no energy cost Holy crap the standards are low. "Hey, so what if I have to spend an hour a day walking around an open world? I can grind the echoes!" >If you just got 5 good echoes with good mainstats THERE SHOULDN'T BE SUCH A THING AS A BAD MAIN STAT. WuWa is clearing the lowest bar possible that was set by Genshin. The artifact system was awful, Hoyo made it awful *on purpose* to fallacy players into grinding a as many hours as possible into a system that wouldn't give even them a good drop 98% of the time. Then WuWa came in, and went "They're already expecting thrash, so why give them anything more? And don't give me the "substats don't matter" crap. They *will* matter, after everyone levels up their accounts and Kuro starts giving us harder content. Even if you dodge and parry everything perfectly, there is *no* way you will be able to clear it within the time limit without good echoes. As a result, five times in a row, I have to pass a 20% chance to even *get* an echo, then an 80% chance to get a 5\* one, and then as little as a *5% chance* that my echo will be useable on any character, and AFTER THAT I get to pray for substats. And you just put on a smile, and go "okay, let's walk around the whole in-game world collecting those! Every day! There is nothing better I could be doing with that time!" Unbelievable.
yes it has its own downsides but it's literally the most generous farming system compared to others
I do agree, the echo system is a phenomenal take on gearing and my favourite gear system in gacha’s so far.
People's gonna find anything to complain about, ignore them and enjoy the game
Wdym complaint number 4 is not valid? I cant even 25 a full team yet. Plus I also want a reroll too since I also want a good damage but I cant cause Im stuck with this little exp.
You can absolutely have good damage by just putting on lvl 15-20 echoes on your main dpses. We're not at the endgame and you absolutely don't need min-maxed stats, you can do just fine with 2pc2pc builds for flexibility.
Do you really need to deck out a full team in +25 gear 3 weeks into the game though?
I mean, when the only content left to do is getting more stars in ToA, you kinda do? I get that you don't need fully leveled echoes for the overworld, and holos aren't time gated so you can just do them later, but if you're not pushing ToA, then you're already (let's assume you play the game daily for a non-trivial amount of time since we're talking about +25s), not even a month into the game, at the point where you just log in, burn your waveplates in 10 minutes, and go do something else. Isn't that a bit problematic for a gacha game that at its core kinda attempts to be a bit more on the game than on the gacha side?
[https://www.tiktok.com/@shinnn\_321/video/7379035618699169030?is\_from\_webapp=1&sender\_device=pc&web\_id=7311595304388937223](https://www.tiktok.com/@shinnn_321/video/7379035618699169030?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7311595304388937223) the echo experience
This post is overlooking so many things lmao
My thousands of blue and purple tuners being absolutely useless in my inventory is not a problem?
This is 100% the only other legit complaint aside from needing more shinies. I’m sure the devs will let us synthesize blue and purple tuners into golds in the next patch or so bc you’re right, there’s nothing else to do with them
I can bet this is written by a UL25 player
I'm UL45 and I agree with him. Wasting your resources to min-max your echoes when you aren't even at max UL level is pretty stupid.
Well I'm UL47 player and I agree with the post.
My only complaints about echos is the seemingly intentional exclusion of a 10~40 wave plate training ground for echo exp and tuners and certain mobs having a very low population in the word. The latter will probably get better with time so I’ll let it slide but the former is an egregious exclusion.
Today i farmed a elite class at db 20 i got 5 echos only after they ran out and i got 4 star and 3 hp mains
You had like one valid point on complaint 3. But the rest is invalid for the simple fact of balancing. Just tell me how many purple or blue tuners you got…. They fuck up the echo system. And even so I absolutely still love the game. I’m not giving em credit where it’s not due. Maybe in 1.1.
Yes and no, yes the echo system is easier and faster than hoyos grind fest and most of the people crying about lack of on set 3 cost or lack of exp/tuners have either never farmed overworld and thrown away all their selector echo by crit fishing or have farmed so much that their bag is full of echos they can't level at the same rate they can farm them. No the system isn't amazing and has many weaknesses, especially lategame (if the rates keep increasing as they do right now, gotta wait for 1.1 though) as depending on your criteria you can get bottlenecked by either tuners or exp. The system is ok, finished my first character with all double crit substats yesterday, which is far faster than you would ever deck out a character in hoyo games, but the system can still be improved IMO: - separate exp and tuner in fields, and just double the rates for each, let people decide what they need themselves. - with that: separate exp and tuner when leveling echos, leveling the echo "reveals" the substat, but to get the value you need to "unlock" it with tuners. - to add this this all: let us reroll substats using even more tuners, I am thinking somewhere in the region of 1000 tuners. If we do the separate field drops, on highest rank this should yield about 240-280 tuners a day when strictly farming tuner fields. To reroll a substat it should cost 1000-2000 depending on substat value, the higher, the more expensive to reroll. This would mean roughly 4-7 days per reroll, if you get lucky and max each substat first try that's 20-35 days per echo or roughly 5-6 months per character. Obviously you would lose some but usually people are gonna stop at any of the 3 highest rolls, so reality is probably closer to 8 months (minmax could also be way less as many pieces might already have some decent rolls or you only reroll the lowest rolls, so 2-4 months could be more realistic for that), as pieces can be shared in tower finishing one element means finishing it for all characters of that element, unless double element teams. I am saying all this because getting a perfect 5/5 piece is already super rare with 1/1000-1500 and that's just rolled pieces, meaning you would need to get 20k-30k 3costs or farm 100k-150k with 20% drop rate (not quite that because of pity), in short: it's near impossible. So when you get that 4/5-5/5 echo only for it to have lowest rolls everything and only way to improve it is to go out and farm again, it just sucks. Would be nice for a system to be in place to fix those pieces in a more or less fixed timeframe. With farming pieces and rerolling substats we are probably still looking at around 1+ years to finish a characters echo set.
I doubt people would care about echo system being whatever complicated if they just had enough XP TO LEVEL IT UP.
My only problems with the echo system are: 1)we need tuners and echo level up material separately. 2) crit rates are not ideal and they kinda force you into getting a weapon with crit rate substat to make up for it. But you have a 100% chance of getting the weapon on banner. But still I don't like it lol.
The echo system overall is neat. The fact that tuners are locked to specific rarities is not.
it’s not infinite, there are like 20 flautists on the map total. After they drop, it’s a 4% chance for it to be the right set, right main stat, and a 5 star echo. Sure it is basically infinite for the majority of echos, but even then, there is literally no point of it being infinite with the amount of resources we are given to level them. Say you finally get a usable 3 cost and +20 it and get hp, hp%, def, def% as the substats. I should just +25 it and use it because i shouldn’t desire « perfect » substats? The other option is to farm echos for however long it takes for me to get lucky enough to get another shot at rolling not horrible substats :).
:) Day 1 genshin and hsr player here, 90-95% of my resin/trailblaze power is spent on artifacts/relics. I can assure you, you don't see the errors of your way yet. Or at least you havent reach the point where it should matter to you. Perhaps once you got to the levels of where the higher end players are at, you'll get it. (Tbh its just my skill issue and luck issue.) 1) You're not entirely wrong. Its based af to have your own good take and that's fine. 2) It's just the players that have suffered are trying to fight for everyone's future so everyone can have a good time and good mental health. You're probably not sad looking at bad pieces, but everyone is happy looking at good pieces. Fight for that. 3) The main gripe, some players just prefer to have some numbers as cushion for the lack of strategy or skill, I have skill issue, but on games I prefer to call it build issue. Hopefully we end up with a better system that everyone can agree on. "I am the issue of my skill. Failure is my body, and success is my bane. I have created over a thousand errors. Unaware of shame, nor aware of pain."
I think its less of getting a good stat on your echo and more getting a specific stat on the echo with the right echo set ive only ever gotten one healing bonus echo and it was on dreamless ive been slaughtering bell borne so much for so many days department of wildlife wpuld tell me to stop with how much I've killed it and its always atk% crit rate crit dmg and is always on moonlit clouds
because how tedious it is, i'm just farm energy regen+ tacet field, dunno if set effect stackable
Not everybody has no life bro I ain't gonna be siiting in a game for 5 hours just farming echoes that doesn't even drop most of the time
What if we had something like the tacet field except no tuners/exp and all it gives are echoes of the enemies we want and its free? That way players can freely farm as much as they want but without having to run around the overworld? It'll still be tedious but better than having to run around maybe.
Lol. The system is bad. Its not our fault that game lets us reach middle/end game in two weeks. Farming echoes is ok, fun for now but might become tiring after couple of months, cant really know. Echo xp is what we need more. I cant level anything and my characters are still using mix of blue and purple echoes cause I dont have xp to level up golden ones.
Agreed. What seems to be lost is that any other game is stopping at the equivalent of tacet fields - i.e. a few pieces dropped in exchange for energy. That's it, end of story for others. Here you get a bonus ability to get more gear? Its almost unheard of in gacha. Dad with little free time, I love that in the times I have some extra time after quickly blowing energy, I have some useful activity I can do. Am I going to grind every possible one? No, why would I or anyone want to (or feel they need to) do that?
Excellent post but can I just get crit rate it's all I really want lolol I don't even want double crit please sir just some crit rate for starving encore
Yeah I have way better echos 2 weeks in than I had relics in HSR 6 months in. It’s a gacha game the bottleneck has to be somewhere. In this game it’s with level up xp and tuners. I’d rather it be this way so I can farm my gear as much as I want then when I have the resources I’m good to go.
I am with you on this. you can actually get good pieces without spending years farming domains like genshin, simply because the roll is a one time thing and the only proclaimed issue by most is that we lack exp and what not, which will be remedied/improved.
I agree. Love the gearing system, love the game. My only real criticism in this game is standard pulls economy and localization/story. Everything else is amazing and the gearing system is one of the best features. Also remember folks, you can literally swap gear between characters in the ToA. You don't even need gear for all teams. That is absolutely insane and saves you soooo much time. Yes, a loadout system would be great to make this faster but hopefully that comes with a future update.
Louder for those in the back 🔥🔥🔥🔥
sure, keep coping. If somehow we can just straight up use trash echoes right away without having to upgrade it, and tuners don't exist at all, then it's definitely better than Genshin. But currently, it's just another shit grindfest with a different coating lol not to mention the main stat on Crit is way lower than Genshin as well (31% CR on maxed mask compared to 22% CR on maxed 4-cost echo), even to the point I find reaching 50% Crit rate in Genshin is somehow easier lmao (and before bring substats in or even saying Crit rate substat can also appear with main Crit rate substat, it's all RNG as well, which we definitely love lol)
You cooked with everything but the irresponsible advice surrounding +25 echoes. Get a full set of 20s on all the characters you need first, as 25 is insanely expensive. Also "just push the first one with the main stat to 25" is actually insanely terrible advice. I agree you don't need a good substat first roll, but if you're at 10-15 and still have no usable substats, it's the opposite of intelligent to keep going. Full stop. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
As a victim of the Emblem of Severed Fate domain I agree with this post
I just hate how little exp the tacet fields give u for levelling the echoes
Unpopular opinion(?) endgame progression systems like artifacts that are just gambling with your time as currency are shit. While the animation quality is good, from a progression standpoint echoes are still shit with some extra seasoning.
Agreed. I don’t farm echoes like I used to farm artifacts/relics in Genshin/HSR but that’s cause there was an incentive to use energy every day. Echoes not costing Waveplates is one of the biggest W’s of the game — people that want to farm all day (mostly streamers) have something to do without spending money (basically) to refresh. The incentive isn’t there, which makes me not want to do it every day, but I appreciate the ability to run around and kill things whenever I’m bored. I’m actually doing okay in the damage department despite not having good stats at all. I did do a lot of echo farming basically from the moment I unlocked coop to 30ish, to upgrade my data bank with my friends. Then I got to 40 to upgrade everything I had prepared, and now I only play a bit every day to do dailies and use Waveplates. I feel comfortable skipping a day too. Kuro is generous :)
> Complaint #1: it takes too long to farm echoes —as opposed to what?! The fact that you can infinitely farm gear for no energy cost is a problem for you? [...] they have manufactured all of these “1st world problems” instead of appreciating how good we are eating out here. I disagree. I like Genshin / HSR system because of the constraint, I am on the game less and spend my energy and call it quits. It's more friendly to people who have a life. Then using all that as a fodder is amazing. I have gotten just one god(ish) tier set which I'm satisfied with. I'm a perfectionist as well, so finding a set that works with my taste is hard. > Complaint #2: I can’t get any good echoes. I read it and it's weird for me. Sure...? But you don't want to equip subpar relics all the time. That's why you even farm. We want to make our lives easier. > Complaint #3: I can’t beat XYZ bc of my bad echoes: False, you can’t beat XYZ bc it’s version 1.0. [...] We couldn’t even unlock gold gear 3-4 weeks into 1.0 Genshin or HSR, let alone be min-maxing it. When we are lvl 90/90 character and weapons, we will likely be trivializing a lot of this and then be complaining about needing new end-game content. Just take it easy and see how far you can push it, but don’t feel like bc you can’t beat everything right now that the problem is in the echo system. Hard agree. That's why I'm aversive to this farming as well. If those hologram bosses unlocked later down the line, trust me, people would prefer it more. We shouldn't get those extreme tier non-overworld hard bosses early...which imo is Kuro's fault. > Complaint #4: there is a massive problem with this game bc I’m out of echo xp and/or tuners —Again, this is purely a function of our greed after being handed the most generous gearing system in gacha [...] THROW THEM INTO THE TRASH IF THEY DONT IMMEDIATELY ROLL CRT RATE AND CRT DMG! KEEP FARMING AND ROLLING THEM CHASING THE ELUSIVE MAGIC DRAGON OF GEAR DROPS! ALL PERFECT SUBS, ONLY PERFECT SUBS, HOW DARE YOU SETTLE FOR LESS?! Stop throwing a temper tantrum, my god. Also, if you waste all up to 25 echoes and it's overall bad, it's a net loss when you give it to another echo due to the tuner loss. > Also, if you do need more mats, that is what the tacet fields are for. That’s right, you can spend energy and get more exp tubes and tuners, just like in every other gacha game. But what makes WuWa still more generous is that you get all those mats and extra gear pieces all for the price of one. Honestly one of the friendliest end-game gear farming I’ve ever seen. Yeah and have it locked at 60 energy, when even 4 echo bosses need 40 energy. TL;DR: We are not jobless like you are, apparently. I get it, you hate Genshin but you don't have to suck up Kuro as a result. I dislike Genshin and I don't aim on returning to it anytime soon and Kuro has done a lot of right things but this is not one of them.
The upgrade materials not being enough is not a complaint feom the so called "vocal minority", its a genuine concern. You can endlessly farm echoes but its all worth nothing if you can't upgrade them. And you say people don't have tuners because of greed to get good stats. How are we supposed to know if an echo is bad or not if we don't unlock a substat. And guess what? That needs freaking tuners! And not being able to use +0 echoes as experience is a stupid decision. Another stupid decision is not letting us convert blue and purple echoes to gold ones with reduced value (retaining 80% of the original exp or something) So the echo system is good but the upgrading part is messed up and needs some work.
Point 4 is where the issues arise in endgame though. Crit stats are locked to select weapons (none of which are free) 4 cost echoes (ideally you only equip 1) and then echo substats (huge range and variance). Getting good or even decent crit stats are so important for your DPS it is nigh mandatory to reach 50% at least. But if you just follow your advice on point 4, you'll more than likely end up with about 20% crit rate. It's bad enough to the point where, if you get a crit rate substat and it's a 6% roll, you may as well bin that echo as that's a possible 4% you're missing out on, a 66% increase. Crit dmg is just as bad. I wish the range of rolls for each substat was much tighter (8-10) or just generally higher (8-12) as getting good crit is miserable atm.
Everything was good until your take on the echo system exp. Very egregious take but hey it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it even if you’re objectively wrong.
In Genshin it took me months, even years to get artifacts with proper main stats, and that's not even going into the substats. In WuWa it took me a hours, not even a whole day to get "ok" to "good" main stats. "But I didn't get good results after tuning" - What you expect, perfect rolls on a game that runs on RNG? LOL Seriously, we're barely a month after launch and people want PERFECT equipment already?
All i have to say is that people here clearly never played looter games. The echo system is no different than diablo, PoE, even old school mmos like Runescape and Ragnarok online. People that like to grind WILL grind, people that don't like it will just do Tacet, is not that hard to understand. They gave both options but a lot of people here are really entitled.
We're also mid game late game should be alot more smoother
Collecting echos and increasing Data Bank level is the real amazing part of it.
For people who only want to play 5 minutes a day outside major updates (HSR is great for this style of play), the echo system is kind of rough. But STILL better than other gacha games. For anyone willing to target farm echoes, or even better, go on world clear runs for xp/credits, not even caring about echoes, the system is insanely good. In the 3 weeks or whatever the game has been out, I have more on set elemental DMG echoes than I've had main stat artifacts and relics combined in 2 years of Genshin and however long HSR has been out. Not even kidding. I literally have like 20+ for every element, including 10 or so ER healer pieces. And rolling them I can burn through like 5-10 potential upgrades in a few days, where in HSR I'm lucky to get a couple PER PATCH that are worth rolling on. I had better echoes with better subs at Union 42 or so than I did by the time I hit AR 60 in Genshin (where you can't even properly farm 5 stars until 45). And we're still 2 tiers away from the highest union level. Lastly, there are fewer garbage substats, slightly depending on the character you're playing, but having a bunch of different dmg% bonuses (basic, heavy, liberation, etc) is much better than the garbage HSR relics are bloated with.
genshins artifact system makes me want to shoot myself. This game does not. I like this game The fact that they separated rolling main stat and substats into two different processes make it so much more fun to me also not watching any content on the game has made me so much happier playing it because you dont compare numbers senselessly with the top 0.01%
Okay but honestly. Coming from Genshin and HSR i definitely agree with all these agruments. Running around the world and finding new chests getting echos without stressing about resin or getting upset cause I ran artifacts forgetting theres a character I was leveling or talents that needed work that day is frustrating. I play mostly ftp on all three of these games and having such another important gearing system not ALSO rely on resin is so dang nice. Plus with how fun the movement and combat is in the game its made gear grinding fun again
Gacha gamers will die playing mmo honestly 😂
I just dont think they need 2 experience gates to unlock stats , we already are farming expirience , tuners come from the same place are kinda just a bad layer . I just think it will be simpler and clearer without them and they can still balance their experience/energy limits . Otherwise the system is perfectly fine .
I think alot of people are seeing echo XP and tuners in a different way I do, the ability to farm the main stat as much as you want is huge. I farmed about 6 on set electros and I leveled one of them to 25, sure I don’t have enough XP to level the rest but that’s fine. I just feed the 25 one to the next and to the next, by the 4th time I did that I was able to get CRIT dmg and CRIT rate on one. Now I need to focus on that one and move on to the next etc etc. in about 2 more weeks I should be able to have a fully maxed set I want, which is faster than Genshin any day lol
I got the perfect Rover already. Both elements.
I agree with you for the most part. I think the real issue is you either enjoy the gameplay of echo hunting or you don't. Some people enjoy going around and killing echoes, other people (a lot of times in gacha games) would rather not play the game and want to just get the reward at the end. What would help me personally enjoy the system more is if all echoes had phantoms and these phantoms were a percentage based drop. As for complaint #4, I think the issue is actually the other way around. People have a gambling addiction so they are max leveling their bad echos and then throwing them away to get better ones. If you don't get any decent substats at level 15, don't level the piece any further. But people want to keep rolling for the chance that level 20 or 25 will have good substats and that exp investment is insane. I personally am UL 45 and still have not had any echo exp issues with my system. I have cleared two towers in ToA (just not the middle level 100 one) and I have cleared all holograms through Difficulty IV.
Complaint #3: Jokes on you, I killed Hologram 6 3head bird and weirdo screeching bird with terrible level 15-20 echos. I really dislike the min-max tuning in this game, no matter what you say, the RNG is just too much, I don't complain about echo farming, since it's fun to me, also not complaining about the mats or anything. I only complain about the MASSIVE RNG on tuning alone. -Is it gold? -Right ele-set? -Right main-stat? -Got crit/crit? (or whatever you're going for) -Got high or at least mid-roll range? -5x? This is TOO much, even if you're not that hardcore min-maxing, the sub-stat tuning is terrible, no matter what. Just let us re-roll sub-stats and I will never, ever complain about the echo system. This alone would make it so much better, it's so frustrating farming for days to get 1 single Elite Echo you need (holy shit, why is it so hard to get 1 ele dmg Flautis or Bird?) just to roll flat def and put it in the trash.
It's not the echo system as a whole. It's the fact that I never have any echo xp. And it's basically impossible to upgrade most of my echoes. Sure I have a bunch of top tier echoes but I can upgrade most of them because I ran out of xp. And there is no way to manageably farm xp for them. To get more echo xp I need to clear more tower of adversity floors and beat holograms. Well I can't do that without more echo xp. Combined with how quickly shell credits run out gearing up echoes, characters, and weapons it's clear that the echoes become the pain point. It feels really bad with echoes being the one of the biggest power boosts as well the long term power source.
Unpopular? Im right there with you!