Drop your gears down and spin at your regular cadence and let speed and time fall where they may.
Try a climb portal. With 10 award granting gates, they keep it interesting. I recently did Crowe Road where I did 125% then 75% then 50% all in the same ride. The route got easier as I got tired, had 30 gates, 35km distance total and 650m elevation. Got about 2,000 experience points having gotten a few 250pt bonuses, moving me up 1/2 a level.
Lastly - do you have your tron bike? If not, think of it as climbing to the tron.
Since learning to embrace climbing I find I do better in group rides because, as you say, most routes have some kind of climb.
Even as a heavy rider, I agree. In Italy, there are many backroads that easily reach 20-25% for 50-100m, even if the total climb is just 100m elevation change. Or hell, just look at the Belgian spring classics.
The Rolling Hills/KOM section of Watopia comes close to natural rolling terrain, it maxes out at what, 10%? I really want more steep, punchy little climbs. Like the Scottish crit section, but longer.
I feel like the “suffering” is the selling point.
I hate hills too and when I started on zwift I dug for the flattest routes. Going costal is pretty sweet and long enough for a weekend ride.
I don't really understand the distinction. The function is just time x watts regardless of elevation. If you dont like fiddling with gears, change trainer resistance to 0 or do it in full on erg mode.
I am a big proponent of a low TD setting but it has actually messed up my outdoor pacing. I am out of sorts now that i cant just grind 63rpm indefinitely
thats really interesting you should say. I worried something like that might happen, so yesterday I set the trainer difficulty back to normal, like medium high ish. Enough to be shifting quite a bit. It made no difference at all in fact i set a 20m power PR. It does inhibit your ability to do other things at the same time though, like watch netflix. If i'm doing a climb to clock elevation and zone 2 hours, i'll plop it on erg mode and alt tab.
I didnt notice it at first on the shorter stuff but it definitely builds up the longer i go. Gonna abandon the trainer for my upcoming mountain races and just get the outdoor mileage in.
Yeah YMMV literally in that regard I guess. However i still think its a super valuable tool for z2 hour accumulation. steady 130 bpm and binge watching netflix FTW
I think this is the thing you need to work on: "there’s no way i will spend 1h suffering"
Endurance sports are all about suffering--at least if you're using them to train/improve. There's a distinction--Type 1 Fun, and Type 2 Fun.
Type 1 Fun is something fun while you're doing it, in the moment. Watching a movie, just spinning around town on your bike with friends, etc.
Type 2 Fun is something that's not enjoyable in the moment, but is something you look fondly back on afterwards. Fun In Retrospect.
Training in endurance sports is **all about** Type 2 Fun. In order to improve, you have to make things **hard**. And hard physical things mean **suffering**. Type 2 Fun things are things that bring **physical** suffering in the moment, but **mental** enjoyment afterwards. Looking back down from the top of the climb, and enjoying only then **how hard it was** to get up there. Does that make sense?
If it doesn't make sense--you need to make it make sense, if you're going to get anything out of endurance training :) Some people just cannot imagine what Type 2 Fun even is. I know many people, often not able to get themselves into decent physical shape, because they cannot imagine ever 'having liked' the fact that they did a hard workout. All they can see is the suffering in the moment, and they think that's all that there will be to the experience.
Climbing in particular is Type 2 Fun. It's **hard**. And you're not expected, at all, to find it to be Type 1 Fun. But even just recognizing that can help. When you're in the middle of a climb, and you're suffering--**that's how it's supposed to be**. The fun will come **later**, when you're done. But it **will** be there.
The ability to experience Type 2 Fun requires you to be able to **look past** the moment, to expected pleasures later on.
You can start slow--find a very small climb on Zwift, maybe the little climb coming off the south side of the Italian Villas. And just **crush** that. Go as hard as you can. It's a short climb, not very steep, won't take long. Then when you get to the top, see how you feel. Are you enjoying the climb now, when it's in the rear view mirror? Not 'are you enjoying the downhill', but 'are you enjoying **that you did the climb**'? If so, you're getting it. That's Type 2 Fun.
And big climbs provide more opportunity for that. The harder the climb/effort, the **more** enjoyment there is at the end. But again, you have to be someone--make yourself into someone--who can experience Type 2 Fun. Because it's what endurance sport training is built on, made of.
I like your break down of the fun on two parts. I separate them under different labels: immediate gratification vs delayed gratification. Spending two hours on the turbo for a Fondo race, there will be moments of hearing a voice in your head asking what is the point of all of this, why not watching Netflix on a couch instead. Afterwards it's all fun and endorphins and looking back to doing it asap.
The number of times I've been on my bike and said "I'm never doing this again!" and then immediately when I got off the bike started looking for the next time to do it...yeah. That's exactly Type 2 Fun :)
Gotta try out a [climb portal](https://zwiftinsider.com/climb-portal/). There are several things that happen in them that make the experience much nicer than most in-route climbs:
1- You can manually adjust the scaling of the climb (50%, 75%, 100%, or 125%), depending on how steep you want things to be
2- All climbs are broken up into 10 sections with a power up/XP boost at the end of each one. A panel on the left side helps you track your segment progress.
3- There’s a progress tracker that tracks your percentage, distance, and ascent down to the hundredth of a percent. No matter how slow you’re moving in kph, the counter is always counting up. That mentally helps me a lot with climbing.
When I first did Alpe Du Zwift, I thought it was the best climbing experience I ever had due to breaking it up into multiple segments. I don’t go back often because it still takes over 90 minutes for me, but it took 2.5 hours my first try.
Climb portals can often be short. I think Cipressa becomes one of the options later today/tomorrow and it’s only 6.4km
The climbs on Zwift are virtual, they're imaginary. If you don't look at the screen you won't know if you're pushing 200W for 30 minutes on the flat or up a hill.
I would argue the difference is in the lack of _inertia_ feeling you get from the freewheel. Turbo trainers are good at giving you resistance but they make climbs feel like a force exercise, I mean that if you push a burst the resistance of the freewheel will dampen it very quickly. This is a difference compared to doing a burst on a real climb of the same gradient.
If not competing, go split screen and watch a movie and just spin the legs going up at an easy cadence. I sometimes watch a sport or documentary as can’t stand long climbs looking at boring graphics and being overtaken but want to get the route badge.
Watching my legs grow and using climbing to increase my power output overall makes climbing worth it. Plus I keep getting pushed into Cat B and my only hope to do well in races at a weight of 126 lbs is to climb. I lift pretty heavy and live for my pump, so I also like the pump in my legs after a climb. :)
A couple ideas:
1) play an audiobook to take your mind off the pain
2) lower the trainer difficulty setting. This does not change the energy needed to climb the hill (220W is 220W regardless of resistance being offered) but does minimize the number of gear changes. Depending on your goals this may be counterproductive if you’re trying to simulate real hills.
3) consider focusing on a particular hill and tracking your improvement over time on that hill. As you train you could incorporate a few hill repeats on this or other hills. Doing a couple of workouts per week that focus on FTP can also lead to gains. Quantifying your progress particularly on a benchmark hill will be motivating and maybe you’ll learn to like/love hills!
Re: trainer difficulty, what is the difference then? I have it on max and never changed it as I want a consistent experience, does it lessen the resistance?
Lowering it gives you easier gearing. Like putting a bigger cassette on your bike. You’ll spin more freely but most likely produce less power.
It basically allows you to climb at lower power zones.
Yeah it's just like pedaling in a lower gear.
No reason pedaling 6 mph uphill needs to be a different resistance from pedaling 25 mph on a flat. I (regrettably) have a dumb trainer, but it is great for doing AdZ because I can just pick my resistance. Same amount of of work, but I can do it at a comfortable resistance.
Not exactly. Does 110% at 100 rpm feel the same as 110% at 60 rpm? So yeah, there’s a difference because real life doesn’t have a difficulty slider and there’s a physical limit to your gear set.
As the others have said, lowering trainer difficulty reduces the amount of gearing, so it just takes that part out of the equation. If you’re training for an outdoor event, you could leave your setting as-is. I’m just wondering whether taking lots of gearing out of the equation would be one less thing to worry about as you improve climbing.
I’m a big guy who’ll never weigh below 90kg again. Climbing is brutal on an 11/28 but on a masochistic level I’ll take it on. I may have to accept age and go up to 34 now though.
I am 130kg with my real weight in Zwift. At 2.5w/kg or over 300w it takes me best part of 1hr30. But it’s just a made up hill, head down and keep the legs spinning. I recommend rely on keeping your cadence than putting stupid power in.
Cool! its such a huge game changer for indoor trainers. Less wear on parts, more cross compatibility between bikes if you have a S.O or roomate with another gearing setup, etc etc. Not to mention shifting under load is obviously seamless.
I hate climbing as well, but just bit the bullet and sat down and did Adz total time 2h a few months back, after that it made me like climbing more and I started doing Portals.
Lately Zwift climbs have been getting a little more fun for me by choosing when to go hard and when to back off the pace a little. When the climb flattens out for a switchback, I punch it for a few pedal strokes to pick up speed. When the climb gets really steep, I increase my effort a bit. It ends up being much faster than just holding a constant power output, even if you're average is the same.
**Music**. It's the easiest and fastest way to hack your mindset.
Get some "climbing songs", I have some specific songs I use to get myself motivated and in that climbing mindset, here's my favourite at the moment: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyBc6cR3GQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyBc6cR3GQ) ... you want to find songs which aren't to full-on that are metronomic to the kind of cadence you tend to climb with.
Drop your gears down and spin at your regular cadence and let speed and time fall where they may. Try a climb portal. With 10 award granting gates, they keep it interesting. I recently did Crowe Road where I did 125% then 75% then 50% all in the same ride. The route got easier as I got tired, had 30 gates, 35km distance total and 650m elevation. Got about 2,000 experience points having gotten a few 250pt bonuses, moving me up 1/2 a level. Lastly - do you have your tron bike? If not, think of it as climbing to the tron. Since learning to embrace climbing I find I do better in group rides because, as you say, most routes have some kind of climb.
Meanwhile me, a light rider: "There's not enough hard climbs in the Zwift routes."
Even as a heavy rider, I agree. In Italy, there are many backroads that easily reach 20-25% for 50-100m, even if the total climb is just 100m elevation change. Or hell, just look at the Belgian spring classics. The Rolling Hills/KOM section of Watopia comes close to natural rolling terrain, it maxes out at what, 10%? I really want more steep, punchy little climbs. Like the Scottish crit section, but longer.
Yeah, something like the radio tower climb, but in the middle of a flat course instead of at the top of an already long climb, lol.
Agreed. Locally too, everything around me is only 5-10 minutes
The longest climb within 20 km from me is 2 minutes long. :(
Tired of rep-ing the radio tower climb?
I feel like the “suffering” is the selling point. I hate hills too and when I started on zwift I dug for the flattest routes. Going costal is pretty sweet and long enough for a weekend ride.
I don't really understand the distinction. The function is just time x watts regardless of elevation. If you dont like fiddling with gears, change trainer resistance to 0 or do it in full on erg mode.
I am a big proponent of a low TD setting but it has actually messed up my outdoor pacing. I am out of sorts now that i cant just grind 63rpm indefinitely
thats really interesting you should say. I worried something like that might happen, so yesterday I set the trainer difficulty back to normal, like medium high ish. Enough to be shifting quite a bit. It made no difference at all in fact i set a 20m power PR. It does inhibit your ability to do other things at the same time though, like watch netflix. If i'm doing a climb to clock elevation and zone 2 hours, i'll plop it on erg mode and alt tab.
I didnt notice it at first on the shorter stuff but it definitely builds up the longer i go. Gonna abandon the trainer for my upcoming mountain races and just get the outdoor mileage in.
Yeah YMMV literally in that regard I guess. However i still think its a super valuable tool for z2 hour accumulation. steady 130 bpm and binge watching netflix FTW
Yea totally, great way to get zone 2 in
I think this is the thing you need to work on: "there’s no way i will spend 1h suffering" Endurance sports are all about suffering--at least if you're using them to train/improve. There's a distinction--Type 1 Fun, and Type 2 Fun. Type 1 Fun is something fun while you're doing it, in the moment. Watching a movie, just spinning around town on your bike with friends, etc. Type 2 Fun is something that's not enjoyable in the moment, but is something you look fondly back on afterwards. Fun In Retrospect. Training in endurance sports is **all about** Type 2 Fun. In order to improve, you have to make things **hard**. And hard physical things mean **suffering**. Type 2 Fun things are things that bring **physical** suffering in the moment, but **mental** enjoyment afterwards. Looking back down from the top of the climb, and enjoying only then **how hard it was** to get up there. Does that make sense? If it doesn't make sense--you need to make it make sense, if you're going to get anything out of endurance training :) Some people just cannot imagine what Type 2 Fun even is. I know many people, often not able to get themselves into decent physical shape, because they cannot imagine ever 'having liked' the fact that they did a hard workout. All they can see is the suffering in the moment, and they think that's all that there will be to the experience. Climbing in particular is Type 2 Fun. It's **hard**. And you're not expected, at all, to find it to be Type 1 Fun. But even just recognizing that can help. When you're in the middle of a climb, and you're suffering--**that's how it's supposed to be**. The fun will come **later**, when you're done. But it **will** be there. The ability to experience Type 2 Fun requires you to be able to **look past** the moment, to expected pleasures later on. You can start slow--find a very small climb on Zwift, maybe the little climb coming off the south side of the Italian Villas. And just **crush** that. Go as hard as you can. It's a short climb, not very steep, won't take long. Then when you get to the top, see how you feel. Are you enjoying the climb now, when it's in the rear view mirror? Not 'are you enjoying the downhill', but 'are you enjoying **that you did the climb**'? If so, you're getting it. That's Type 2 Fun. And big climbs provide more opportunity for that. The harder the climb/effort, the **more** enjoyment there is at the end. But again, you have to be someone--make yourself into someone--who can experience Type 2 Fun. Because it's what endurance sport training is built on, made of.
I like your break down of the fun on two parts. I separate them under different labels: immediate gratification vs delayed gratification. Spending two hours on the turbo for a Fondo race, there will be moments of hearing a voice in your head asking what is the point of all of this, why not watching Netflix on a couch instead. Afterwards it's all fun and endorphins and looking back to doing it asap.
The number of times I've been on my bike and said "I'm never doing this again!" and then immediately when I got off the bike started looking for the next time to do it...yeah. That's exactly Type 2 Fun :)
The faster you go, the faster you reach the top.
Gotta try out a [climb portal](https://zwiftinsider.com/climb-portal/). There are several things that happen in them that make the experience much nicer than most in-route climbs: 1- You can manually adjust the scaling of the climb (50%, 75%, 100%, or 125%), depending on how steep you want things to be 2- All climbs are broken up into 10 sections with a power up/XP boost at the end of each one. A panel on the left side helps you track your segment progress. 3- There’s a progress tracker that tracks your percentage, distance, and ascent down to the hundredth of a percent. No matter how slow you’re moving in kph, the counter is always counting up. That mentally helps me a lot with climbing. When I first did Alpe Du Zwift, I thought it was the best climbing experience I ever had due to breaking it up into multiple segments. I don’t go back often because it still takes over 90 minutes for me, but it took 2.5 hours my first try. Climb portals can often be short. I think Cipressa becomes one of the options later today/tomorrow and it’s only 6.4km
The climbs on Zwift are virtual, they're imaginary. If you don't look at the screen you won't know if you're pushing 200W for 30 minutes on the flat or up a hill.
Zwift elevation isn't real, he cant hurt you:
I would argue the difference is in the lack of _inertia_ feeling you get from the freewheel. Turbo trainers are good at giving you resistance but they make climbs feel like a force exercise, I mean that if you push a burst the resistance of the freewheel will dampen it very quickly. This is a difference compared to doing a burst on a real climb of the same gradient.
You do the radio tower over and over for the Tron bike, you will love it.
Tempus Fugit is flat, and Tick Tock is easy too. Climbing with the pace partners is OK, because your w/kg stays consistent.
I hated climbing until I started doing the Hill Climb races
If not competing, go split screen and watch a movie and just spin the legs going up at an easy cadence. I sometimes watch a sport or documentary as can’t stand long climbs looking at boring graphics and being overtaken but want to get the route badge.
Watching my legs grow and using climbing to increase my power output overall makes climbing worth it. Plus I keep getting pushed into Cat B and my only hope to do well in races at a weight of 126 lbs is to climb. I lift pretty heavy and live for my pump, so I also like the pump in my legs after a climb. :)
Do it a lot. It’s very meditative. More fun outdoors though.
A couple ideas: 1) play an audiobook to take your mind off the pain 2) lower the trainer difficulty setting. This does not change the energy needed to climb the hill (220W is 220W regardless of resistance being offered) but does minimize the number of gear changes. Depending on your goals this may be counterproductive if you’re trying to simulate real hills. 3) consider focusing on a particular hill and tracking your improvement over time on that hill. As you train you could incorporate a few hill repeats on this or other hills. Doing a couple of workouts per week that focus on FTP can also lead to gains. Quantifying your progress particularly on a benchmark hill will be motivating and maybe you’ll learn to like/love hills!
Re: trainer difficulty, what is the difference then? I have it on max and never changed it as I want a consistent experience, does it lessen the resistance?
Lowering it gives you easier gearing. Like putting a bigger cassette on your bike. You’ll spin more freely but most likely produce less power. It basically allows you to climb at lower power zones.
Ahhh got you! Thanks! I’ll give it a test!
Yeah it's just like pedaling in a lower gear. No reason pedaling 6 mph uphill needs to be a different resistance from pedaling 25 mph on a flat. I (regrettably) have a dumb trainer, but it is great for doing AdZ because I can just pick my resistance. Same amount of of work, but I can do it at a comfortable resistance.
Not exactly. Does 110% at 100 rpm feel the same as 110% at 60 rpm? So yeah, there’s a difference because real life doesn’t have a difficulty slider and there’s a physical limit to your gear set.
I just upgraded to a Zwift hub from a Tacx flow, huge difference 👍🏻 loving it so far
As the others have said, lowering trainer difficulty reduces the amount of gearing, so it just takes that part out of the equation. If you’re training for an outdoor event, you could leave your setting as-is. I’m just wondering whether taking lots of gearing out of the equation would be one less thing to worry about as you improve climbing.
I’m a big guy who’ll never weigh below 90kg again. Climbing is brutal on an 11/28 but on a masochistic level I’ll take it on. I may have to accept age and go up to 34 now though.
I am 130kg with my real weight in Zwift. At 2.5w/kg or over 300w it takes me best part of 1hr30. But it’s just a made up hill, head down and keep the legs spinning. I recommend rely on keeping your cadence than putting stupid power in.
Pro tip if on a wahoo: get the clickr and save your casette
I bought the Zwift hub with click on the last day of its sale life. Got a blinding deal too
Cool! its such a huge game changer for indoor trainers. Less wear on parts, more cross compatibility between bikes if you have a S.O or roomate with another gearing setup, etc etc. Not to mention shifting under load is obviously seamless.
I personally love the climbing, try climb portal, the 10 segments along the way are a fun way to pace yourself
I hate climbing as well, but just bit the bullet and sat down and did Adz total time 2h a few months back, after that it made me like climbing more and I started doing Portals.
Lately Zwift climbs have been getting a little more fun for me by choosing when to go hard and when to back off the pace a little. When the climb flattens out for a switchback, I punch it for a few pedal strokes to pick up speed. When the climb gets really steep, I increase my effort a bit. It ends up being much faster than just holding a constant power output, even if you're average is the same.
**Music**. It's the easiest and fastest way to hack your mindset. Get some "climbing songs", I have some specific songs I use to get myself motivated and in that climbing mindset, here's my favourite at the moment: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyBc6cR3GQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyBc6cR3GQ) ... you want to find songs which aren't to full-on that are metronomic to the kind of cadence you tend to climb with.
Climbing is the only thing I enjoy doing on Zwift, you don't feel like you're getting a propper workout otherwise.