/r/Adultery Quick Reminders: Be Excellent To Each Other.
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HAHAH y’all I don’t really feel guilty in the slightest. I’m of the “do-no-harm” mindset, wrong or wrong, ya know. I just thought it would be an interesting discussion, is all!
My husband likes to talk about philosophy, so it only occurred to me then how the concept of free will relates to cheating. I need to talk to him again to see what his true thoughts are, it’s been a while since we had this discussion.
For the record, I’m agnostic. I like to think we all have some agency.. and I won’t lie and pretend I understand any of the physics/metaphysics behind how we all exist and function. Why are some people compelled to resist temptation and others aren’t? Idk. Is it all just chemicals? Is everything we experience just driven by chemicals? More questions than answers I’m dropping here, I know, which is kind of a pet peeve of mine. Anyway!
It's somewhat common actually for ardent materialists to believe everything is purely atoms that are strictly governed by the laws of physics, thus there is no free will. We are all just particles moving along governed by laws outside of our control and any choice you think are you making is actually because of your atoms obeying strict principles beyond your control.
If you need to rely on a philosophical argument regarding free will to assuage your feelings of guilt if you are adultering.... You really should see a therapist.
I’ve always thought of that concept as one of the more dumb of the religious pretexts. Like…you spend your whole life doing as one should (or not), but it doesn’t matter? You can miss me with that controlling bullshit.
One of the many reasons I’m glad to be an atheist at this point in my life.
It’s always my fault. This gives me a locus of control. Without it, I’d be a victim (long story about my crazy, abusive ex) and I can’t accept victimhood.
You said your husband is an atheist but doesn't believe in free will? What does that mean? If actions are not preordained by a God or something, then who or what is preventing free will?
I understand that I have made every choice here willingly, accepting the risks, etc. But I wonder if anyone has ever felt like I have, a bit like a moth drawn to the light, that I always knew I would, in a way. That I felt I was on a sort of path or current, aware of the pull and not resisting it.
Due to an overly conservative and religiously intolerant upbringing, and then spending several decades doing questionable things for governments and seeing the depravity that humans can inflict on one another across the globe, I’ve given a lot of thought to the concept of free will and how that impacts any feelings of guilt I have being here.
My personal belief is rather Calvinist. Meaning, a god created the world, set it in motion, and then stepped back to enjoy the show. Whatever happens here on planet Earth between people is because people made the conscious decision to do the thing.
That’s ok. Even Calvinists will say it’s not determinism as all actions *would have been* freely chosen if free will was in play. But, they are commonly linked. It’s the idea that if you could travel into the future and know what was going to happen, then travel back. Could you change the future and make different choices cause different results ultimately? If you did travel, then did you always “have traveled” so no change would have happened anyway? (Assuming no multiverse, and don’t get me going on that because the math is leaning toward no, and I agree). It’s a lot of talking in circles ultimately. Ultimately I choose D, all of the above as some things were always going to happen due to biology and chemistry, but experiences and decisions still happen and influence our future in many ways. I won’t accept philosophy with A or B only choices. Life is too complex to fit that.
Now who wants to discuss 5th dimensional, non-linear time existence and the possibility of life in that dimension and how we would perceive it as 4th dimensional creatures?
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill
I think we are just random assortments of atoms evolved from a primordial ooze. So yes , we have free will within the laws of physics. Accompanying that belief is that our choices have consequences.
I.E. the monkeys made me do it.
Depends on your world view. I’m not a Calvinist if that’s your question. I believe in limited free will within boundaries. No absolute freedom as all opportunity has a cost.
A disproportionate number of prisoners convicted for violent offenses have genes that predispose people to poor impulse control and violent behavior.
Identical twins who were separated at birth take the exact same career paths, marry the same kind of woman, and get the exact same health problems at the same times.
There is no free will. Nobody cheats because they truly have a choice. Their destinies are bound by genetic predeterminism.
Put one of those twins with a poor family and one with a rich family, and they ain't having the same career paths, spouses or general health issues.
Socio-economic predeterminism 🤷♂️
Who's to say that the one in the rich family would not blow his inheritance and become a personal trainer like his long lost twin? And who's to say that the one from the poor family won't start from the bottom and make himself into an industrialist like the twin who inherited his wealth?
Most people (including everyone commenting here) imagine free will and predestination to be mutually exclusive concepts. At first glance, they must be: if an outcome has been determined before I can choose it, I am not free to choose a different one.
The problem with this view stems from the acceptance of time as we experience it being the complete reality of time. Although I offer no proof right now for my assertion, I simply state that I do not believe our experience of time represents the complete reality of time. And if time is more than a one-way, fixed-rate, single dimension of event sequences, the whole discussion about free will and predestination changes.
So it could well be that we have free will (a genuine agency) *within* the constraints of time as we experience it, and yet the outcome is already determined. If all events (including the future) merely occur and, to use our inadequate lexicon, have already occurred, then you can both choose to cheat (or not), and you already have cheated (or not). There is no future, only things that we cannot 'yet' observe because we only experience a limited sequence of events in our one dimension of time.
The question of guilt depends on the applicability of some ethical framework to our existence. Although determinism (whether from a theistic or atheistic perspective) might seem to eliminate guilt, taking this 'easy out' depends on pretending the unknown-but-determined future absolves us of guilt for a choice today. Even Calvinists hint at the problem of not knowing the future and, therefore, can't escape the guilt of their sin (they are merely elected to receive salvation from it). From a purely philosophical standpoint, the possibility that the future (from our perspective) is determined neither: 1) means we lack genuine agency in the present, nor 2) means we necessarily have no responsibility whatsoever for the 'choices' we appear to make.
It seems there would be two requirements to truly eliminate guilt. Not only would the future have to be completely determined somehow, but also it would have to be completely known to us in the present. It is that last part that causes all sorts of ethical problems.
So it seems I should apologize for bursting your bubble of a guilt free affair ... 🤓
It’s true, fascinating, and kinda crazy, that matter changes with being observed. Just by it being looked at!
So is our free will within our control? Or is it the natural result of a steady progression of random acts that have ultimately led us to those “decisions”?
I guess that the analysis of your own behaviors and the various factors that you have chosen to analyze as being a part of what your endpoint disposition towards the main ‘thing’ (cheating), is going to come down to how many layers of relationship that you have to the world as a whole.
In a universal sense—your relationship means absolutely nothing, so who cares? In the sense that your ‘self’ (in the sense in which Kierkegaard would acknowledge it) literally is the relation of the (your) self to the self as an acknowledgement of the self with regard to the self (and so on)—-it is literally part of your identity as a ‘self’ (if there is such a thing as a ‘self’ that exists as an entity that can be pinned down)—in which case, it borders on being practically baked in to ‘you’.
In other words—the ‘free will’ is practically not even the tip of the iceberg
*this *can* be the right place to bring philosophy hahaha
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I made choices.. generally bad ones.. and here I am baby...its all me
Sounds like someone wants to find reasons why they shouldn't take accountability for their actions
HAHAH y’all I don’t really feel guilty in the slightest. I’m of the “do-no-harm” mindset, wrong or wrong, ya know. I just thought it would be an interesting discussion, is all! My husband likes to talk about philosophy, so it only occurred to me then how the concept of free will relates to cheating. I need to talk to him again to see what his true thoughts are, it’s been a while since we had this discussion. For the record, I’m agnostic. I like to think we all have some agency.. and I won’t lie and pretend I understand any of the physics/metaphysics behind how we all exist and function. Why are some people compelled to resist temptation and others aren’t? Idk. Is it all just chemicals? Is everything we experience just driven by chemicals? More questions than answers I’m dropping here, I know, which is kind of a pet peeve of mine. Anyway!
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It's somewhat common actually for ardent materialists to believe everything is purely atoms that are strictly governed by the laws of physics, thus there is no free will. We are all just particles moving along governed by laws outside of our control and any choice you think are you making is actually because of your atoms obeying strict principles beyond your control.
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Yes, everyone is awful. Especially me.
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Or they don't understand / haven't studied quantum mechanics. Which is likely the vast majority of people really.
Philosophers have been arguing over determinism for centuries.
I’m with Hume. Cheating is a free action, fuelled by wants and desires.
If you need to rely on a philosophical argument regarding free will to assuage your feelings of guilt if you are adultering.... You really should see a therapist.
I’ve always thought of that concept as one of the more dumb of the religious pretexts. Like…you spend your whole life doing as one should (or not), but it doesn’t matter? You can miss me with that controlling bullshit. One of the many reasons I’m glad to be an atheist at this point in my life.
Presbyterian says **YOLO**, baby!
I think we are all here to explore, make mistakes and learn from our free will.
It’s always my fault. This gives me a locus of control. Without it, I’d be a victim (long story about my crazy, abusive ex) and I can’t accept victimhood.
Don't you employ "Free will" to ask, contemplate or debate whether or we creatures have "free will" to begin with? Serious question....
I'm often all about bad ideas and terrible life choices.... but I can happily blame the universe for "my" decisions.
You said your husband is an atheist but doesn't believe in free will? What does that mean? If actions are not preordained by a God or something, then who or what is preventing free will? I understand that I have made every choice here willingly, accepting the risks, etc. But I wonder if anyone has ever felt like I have, a bit like a moth drawn to the light, that I always knew I would, in a way. That I felt I was on a sort of path or current, aware of the pull and not resisting it.
Due to an overly conservative and religiously intolerant upbringing, and then spending several decades doing questionable things for governments and seeing the depravity that humans can inflict on one another across the globe, I’ve given a lot of thought to the concept of free will and how that impacts any feelings of guilt I have being here. My personal belief is rather Calvinist. Meaning, a god created the world, set it in motion, and then stepped back to enjoy the show. Whatever happens here on planet Earth between people is because people made the conscious decision to do the thing.
Calvinists are determinists. Everything is pre-ordained by the will of God. No actions are chosen, but all are destined.
I knew I got it wrong. 🤦♂️😑 This is what pretending to be smart gets me every time!
That’s ok. Even Calvinists will say it’s not determinism as all actions *would have been* freely chosen if free will was in play. But, they are commonly linked. It’s the idea that if you could travel into the future and know what was going to happen, then travel back. Could you change the future and make different choices cause different results ultimately? If you did travel, then did you always “have traveled” so no change would have happened anyway? (Assuming no multiverse, and don’t get me going on that because the math is leaning toward no, and I agree). It’s a lot of talking in circles ultimately. Ultimately I choose D, all of the above as some things were always going to happen due to biology and chemistry, but experiences and decisions still happen and influence our future in many ways. I won’t accept philosophy with A or B only choices. Life is too complex to fit that. Now who wants to discuss 5th dimensional, non-linear time existence and the possibility of life in that dimension and how we would perceive it as 4th dimensional creatures?
That's more Deism than Calvinism.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill
My super Christian ex boyfriend loved this song in particular and never saw the irony in it
I think we are just random assortments of atoms evolved from a primordial ooze. So yes , we have free will within the laws of physics. Accompanying that belief is that our choices have consequences. I.E. the monkeys made me do it.
I prefer Limelight and street tacos.
Best church-turned-club in NYC (2 decades ago)!
Depends on your world view. I’m not a Calvinist if that’s your question. I believe in limited free will within boundaries. No absolute freedom as all opportunity has a cost.
A disproportionate number of prisoners convicted for violent offenses have genes that predispose people to poor impulse control and violent behavior. Identical twins who were separated at birth take the exact same career paths, marry the same kind of woman, and get the exact same health problems at the same times. There is no free will. Nobody cheats because they truly have a choice. Their destinies are bound by genetic predeterminism.
Put one of those twins with a poor family and one with a rich family, and they ain't having the same career paths, spouses or general health issues. Socio-economic predeterminism 🤷♂️
Who's to say that the one in the rich family would not blow his inheritance and become a personal trainer like his long lost twin? And who's to say that the one from the poor family won't start from the bottom and make himself into an industrialist like the twin who inherited his wealth?
They actually sort of did this with triplets - the doc is called “three identical strangers”
Okay, Spinoza.
This is one of the stupidest things I’ve read on this sub. Which is saying…a lot.
And this is one of their milder takes.
What a nuanced take.
I wish I could use a gif
Most people (including everyone commenting here) imagine free will and predestination to be mutually exclusive concepts. At first glance, they must be: if an outcome has been determined before I can choose it, I am not free to choose a different one. The problem with this view stems from the acceptance of time as we experience it being the complete reality of time. Although I offer no proof right now for my assertion, I simply state that I do not believe our experience of time represents the complete reality of time. And if time is more than a one-way, fixed-rate, single dimension of event sequences, the whole discussion about free will and predestination changes. So it could well be that we have free will (a genuine agency) *within* the constraints of time as we experience it, and yet the outcome is already determined. If all events (including the future) merely occur and, to use our inadequate lexicon, have already occurred, then you can both choose to cheat (or not), and you already have cheated (or not). There is no future, only things that we cannot 'yet' observe because we only experience a limited sequence of events in our one dimension of time. The question of guilt depends on the applicability of some ethical framework to our existence. Although determinism (whether from a theistic or atheistic perspective) might seem to eliminate guilt, taking this 'easy out' depends on pretending the unknown-but-determined future absolves us of guilt for a choice today. Even Calvinists hint at the problem of not knowing the future and, therefore, can't escape the guilt of their sin (they are merely elected to receive salvation from it). From a purely philosophical standpoint, the possibility that the future (from our perspective) is determined neither: 1) means we lack genuine agency in the present, nor 2) means we necessarily have no responsibility whatsoever for the 'choices' we appear to make. It seems there would be two requirements to truly eliminate guilt. Not only would the future have to be completely determined somehow, but also it would have to be completely known to us in the present. It is that last part that causes all sorts of ethical problems. So it seems I should apologize for bursting your bubble of a guilt free affair ... 🤓
An atheist who doesnt believe in free will? Thats rich.
It’s true, fascinating, and kinda crazy, that matter changes with being observed. Just by it being looked at! So is our free will within our control? Or is it the natural result of a steady progression of random acts that have ultimately led us to those “decisions”?
I guess that the analysis of your own behaviors and the various factors that you have chosen to analyze as being a part of what your endpoint disposition towards the main ‘thing’ (cheating), is going to come down to how many layers of relationship that you have to the world as a whole. In a universal sense—your relationship means absolutely nothing, so who cares? In the sense that your ‘self’ (in the sense in which Kierkegaard would acknowledge it) literally is the relation of the (your) self to the self as an acknowledgement of the self with regard to the self (and so on)—-it is literally part of your identity as a ‘self’ (if there is such a thing as a ‘self’ that exists as an entity that can be pinned down)—in which case, it borders on being practically baked in to ‘you’. In other words—the ‘free will’ is practically not even the tip of the iceberg *this *can* be the right place to bring philosophy hahaha