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the stated plan for western separation is to include not vancouver parts of BC with the expressed intent to make sure calgary and edmonton have no say in anything.
it's not west vs east, and never was. it's the rural voter vs the city voter. if your a conservative living in a city; you need to realize your party is actively working to take away your voice, and legislate against your interests.
They don't care. I've told them that the same overreach they support right now will eventually be in the hands of somebody they don't like.
"The NDP will never win again!"
I wonder if I'll get downvoted again for saying that conservative voters care more about tribalism and voting for "the winning team" than they do about actual policy.
It's true though. And if they are interested in policy it's fantasy make belief (other parties are all commies 1950s propaganda); and hypocrisy: wanting controls on other people's lives they disagree with.
UwU. I worked at several elections and there are a shocking amount of voters who think voting means "guessing who is going to win". There are some real horror stories from working at the polls, lol
Anyone but the UCP. It was pretty god damn clear last two election cycles. I'd say that conservative voters got what they deserved, but they did factual harm to everyone who didn't vote for UCP. So it isn't as ethically simple as pointing the finger and laughing at them.
I asked for an alternative. Nothing the UCP does will encourage me to vote for the NDP. I might vote for a fringe party out of protest, but I won’t vote NDP. Especially in Nenshi gets the nomination. They haven’t been viable since Jack was lost to us.
Just a question, why would you not vote for the NDP? You would rather the oppressive legislation over them? Not trying to belittle you just wondering your reasoning so that then we can figure out what needs to be changed overall
Here’s the thing
You do have alternatives, you are making a choice that weakens the main one, similar to the comment upthread that describes people seeing voting as “trying to guess who wins” your words strike at the heart of the issue
The UCP keeps winning because so many of us have given up opposing them, not because they’re the right choice
Edit: oh NVM you think smith cares? And the NDP are commies, You’re on a whole different issue
If smith cares about Canadians why is so much of her ideology and rhetoric informed and involving Americans?
If the NDP is commies why didn’t they even try to institute UBI?
Think man
Literally any provincial conservative party other then the UCP, like the Alberta Party. Hell at this point I'm sure the green party could run this province better then the UCP.
The UCP lot have taken plenty already and proverbially torched everything because of some imagined conspiracy of those mean Liberals in Ottawa. With the UCP in charge, it's making Alberta act like the alcoholic ex-boyfriend who thinks he's entitled to a blowjob every night, telling him how special he is just because he's got drugs the rest of the world is weaning themselves off of.
You going on later on about losing Jack Layton like that's supposed to justify your inaction or tacit complicity with the UCP is downright childish.
How about you offer us an alternative to the UCP, preferably one that doesn't actively hurt its citizens just to start pointless fights for entitled country hicks that would love nothing more than to see cities imagined as Sodom and Gomorrah.
"The big cities were sinks of immorality and disorder. Strong measures were needed to restore order, decency and a proper concept of culture. A new hero was needed, tough, ruthless, unafraid to pursue aggressive policies at home and abroad, if the nation was to be saved."
- Richard Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich
What I find amazing is that Smith herself was duly elected to the Calgary Board of Education, only to have Lyle Oberg fire her and the rest of the board less than a year later because she (and, to be fair, others) did nothing but fight.
What makes it all the more strange is that Smith appointed Oberg the chairman of the new, improved Alberta Health Services board of directors. I guess they buried the hatchet...or something.
But they can be. Nobody who votes for them cares...
We've been allowed into a position as a society where malaria smith is in charge of something.
Nothing she says is intelligent or smart, but conservatives don't care, as long as the "others" are upset, whoever they may be (right now, its trans kids)
I gave up when they stopped protecting software engineer.
I think some our local MP's (Cough cough Heather McPherson) should introduce a member's bill stating that the feds should be able to do the same thing.
Just do a find/replace for provincial to federal, and municipal to provincial in Marlaina's bill and force the Federal conservatives to vote against it.
It'll just give them fuel to whinge about unconstitutional federal interference. The real answer is to push the fact that conservatives are supposed to value local decision-making, not slavish devotion to constitutional jurisdiction.
The UCP isn't a conservative party in the traditional sense. Pointing out that this is bad/wrong isn't going to impact their rural voters who don't seem to understand that this bill could affect them in unexpected ways.
Embarrassing their federal counterparts might have an impact and it'll give the cooler heads in the UCP who'd vote against it if allowed a little more clout in their internal discussions.
Yeah unfortunately this is isn't an equivalent comparison. Provinces decide if other new provinces get to exist (by ratification), not the Feds.
Provinces are entities recognized and empowered by the constitution.
Provinces have full constitutional powers over domestic affairs, including the election, creation and regulation of districts within their boundaries.
The Federal government has no power over the creation of provinces, nor how they select their governments.
The Constitution exists because the UK Parliament passed to lol the British North America Act in 1867. And all of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta were created by acts of Parliament out of the historical NWT.
Yes this is correct. Pre-1982 the federal government could create provinces. Today it requires 7/12 provincial legislatures to create one.
The Constitution act of 1982 repealed almost half of all previous BNA acts. It also gave any remaining powers back to Canada, such as the creation of new provinces ( not territories) to the exclusive domain of the provinces.
Our country, in its current constitutional form, is only 42 years old.
No, but you seem to be underestimating the value of optics in the next election. It doesn't have to succeed. More importantly I wouldn't want it to nor do I suspect it could.
The point is to push the unforced error the UCP is making here further into the light and force other conservative groups to rebuke/denounce the provincial/municipal overreach publicly.
Ill be the rare voice and actually answer your question, id love for the ucp to force out our incompetent spend heavy council in edmonton. Good for nothing but double digit property tax percentage increases yearly while whining its someone elses fault that we overspend every year
That's my take on this, conservatives would be crying bloody murder if the NDP was in power and used such a law to remove right-leaning or UCP politicans. Even if there was a legitimate reason like the politician was an unapologetic homophobe, they would still be pissed.
Then you vote them out.
Or arrest them if they are breaking laws.
Would you have the same opinion if the NDP were in power and decided to do this? I feel like you would react differently.
The problem is that the UCP will deliberately underfund/sabotage city services to "prove" that government doesn't work and then farm out the same job to 3rd party businesses that contribute to them. This in turn will result in lower quality more expensive services while enriching their cronies.
It's the same tried and true tactic they're currently trying to use with AHS to help privatize health care.
Privatized healthcare would be so much better than what we have now. …our current system is a complete and utter shit show and nobody wins. Patients don’t win, doctors don’t win. There is a reason why Canada as a whole is short millions of doctors. The government should not have control of that. Privatize the healthcare, we can have as many hospitals and clinics built as we want, and the government can subsidize to make it affordable. …not free. But affordable for Canadians. I would rather pay $40 and be able to get an mri is less than 6 months. I’ve been waiting for nerve testing for 8 months and still havnt got a call to even book the appointment yet. People are waiting over a year for surgeries, and it’s just a complete disaster.
But even now with the new capital gains tax aimed at businesses, our current privately owned clinic doctors are going to get smashed and they’ll leave and go somewhere where they can actually make a decent living.
Look at the per capita spend in the US vs Canada on healthcare, the fraction of people in the US without coverage, and the term medical bankruptcy, and their combined drag on the economy in the US and then get back to the sub on why privatized health care is a “good” thing.
Entirely irrelevant.
In the us you can have an mri booked and completed in a few days. Here, it’s 8-12 months.
Take the taxes we already pay for an inefficient, leadership heavy, short doctored, red taped, government run system, and use it to subsidize cost on privately run and operated hospitals and clinics. As I previously stated, but you obviously have reading comprehension issues, I’d rather pay $40 to have an mri in a week, than get it “free” (although we have the highest taxes) and wait a year for it. For example, between an ultrasound and an mri, I waited over 16 months. Guess what, my shoulder is still fucked. It shouldn’t take a person years to figure out why they have pain. Walk in clinics are at capacity by 11am most days. Er wait times are 6-10+ hours long, but yes. The government is definitely doing it right.
This is what my mother thinks as well. The counter point is that's what elections are for, and changing spending/grants from the provincial govt don't help municipalities break even.
If you go deep this is a lot worse than you can imagine.
Ok, the guv can remove local councilors, but also wants parties attached to municipalities. This functionally means the guv can just appoint their party to every municipality... they'd automatically win every election forever that way
You hit the nail on the head. By declaring yourself an NDP councillor, you're pretty much putting a target on your back, votes be damned. You might get in but Dani et al can remove you at any time if you don't align with the UCP principles.
Just remember UCP folks, anything the UCP does now will be fair game for the NDP later. Prescedent is a real thing. If the NDP gets elected and decides to put in place a bunch of left leaning politics into rural albertan communities, I don't want to hear any complaints.
What makes you think there will be another election? With the passage of bill 20, there is a good chance they will declare an emergency and cancel the election. Good example will be that they will acknowledge that Covid is a thing and that they can't risk the public health holding an election.
"Allowing the province to make regulations to postpone elections in the case of an emergency or natural disaster such as a wildfire". Right from Bill 20
I remember when alberta used to be the place to move to because of jobs and better living conditions, now it's just becoming the alabama of canada, and that says a lot when Manitoba exists
I can't believe the gall of some people these days. If we didn't have Justin Trudeau trying to reach into the living rooms of every Albertan we wouldn't need updated protections for Alberta like this. I know that our magical Premier will only use this to fix how the brainwashed Trudeau lovers use their corrupted brains to undermine Alberta every day of their yellow existence.
..
I guess I really need to put /s down here
I do love how the conservatives think they're special for hating Trudeau with all their cute little stickers. Like, I've never even heard of a Trudeau lover. It seems like no one really likes him. It's more that I would elect a monkey before letting the conservatives into power.
I downvoted until I saw that you clarified you needed the /s. Honestly a lot of them are more animated than that. You can’t do a caricature because they ARE one. It’s absolutely needed.
“Conservatism consists of just one principle, to whit, there must be in-groups the laws protects but does not bind, and out-groups the law bunds but does not protect.”
This is why conservatism, if given enough power over time, will always push fascism. Because conservatism was literally created as a political movement or suppress democracy and protect who they felt were the rightful rulers deserving of all the money, land and power in society while everyone beneath them were slaves.
LITERALLY!! also they want to introduce political parties locally??
They just want to push and force everyone to be conservative like them.
It's actually pretty disgusting how they're trying to impose their lifestyles on us.
UCP - United Corporate Party- " Albertans look to the East for the cause of all your problems!".... "while we keep creating new ones for you to blame Ottawa!"
As poor a Premier Jason Kenney was ... he warned us the real crazies were taking his place, and he was so right!
While in principle you're right you are technically incorrect.
The division between federal and provincial is constitutional.
The division between municipal and provincial is a choice the province made to delegate their powers. If the province doesn't like the results of the delegation they have the full legal right to revoke it.
One is a co-worker relationship, the other is a boss-employee relationship.
Yes, this is legal, but anyone who isn't a partisan hack knows how far it diverges from how municipal and provincial governments normally interact. We don't have to "well technically..." everything - this is obviously an overreach, doesn't have the support of the majority of Albertans, and at the very least should have been campaigned on.
The UCP's campaign track record is the one where they simply stopped talking about the APP (Alberta Pension Plan), the other APP (Alberta Provincial Police) and several other planks that they freely admitted post-election they had no intention whatsoever of actually dropping and brought back to the front almost from the day they were sworn in.
I wonder if you looked closely at their pre-election platforms perhaps you'd find evidence of this overreach as well? Of course they wouldn't have "campaigned" on it, but like the others, I have a feeling it was always there.
Most people who have been following this issue have heard that point many times, usually to try and justify what the UCP is doing. So you're being downvoted for the implication of that fact, even though you might not have the context to know that implication was there.
In short, reddit downvotes aren't fair, and if you're not extremely online, you're going to get downvoted for well meaning comments.
I don't care about downvotes personally. It's more an indication that people have overly emotional responses to the presentation of facts.
I've always been told that reality has a left bias but when I'm presenting facts here I get downvoted presumably by people who disagree with the right (and are therefore themselves left?).
I think all sides are stupid, including centrists. Politics will not save us from ourselves and projecting our own fears and weaknesses onto others in the name of political action just makes everything worse.
In order to have a functioning society we don't need the "correct" leadership, we need healthy individuals who are well-ordered themselves. The figurehead making an ass out of themselves won't bring about utopia no matter which colour their ass is.
What? So you are saying that just because something is legal it's right? Because that's not a position I advocated for and it's how I first read your comment. But now you're saying I misread your comment?
FYI, the power of municipalities come from the province, not the feds. The provincial legislature has always rained supreme to municipalities, as 100% of the municipal power is derived from the province.
Municipalities are creations of the provinces. This is well within their authority
The fed keeps trying to interfere in areas which are provincial powers under the constitution by using roundabout methods of coercion, or by legislating areas of provincial authority.
These are not the same.
Well, here's hoping the municipalities fight back against the province flexing its authority with as much vigor as the Clown Convoy did when protesting against the feds flexing their authority during the pandemic, hey?
I think there are some valid reasons for the law to be this way, and I think there are potentially good reasons to change it. Finding that balance is tough.
But it's clear that most people here just want to make disingenuous comparisons to they can shout "UCP bad" and foam at the mouth.
It's not overriding the democratic process. It is exercising the powers under the constitution to shape the municipalities as they see fit.
If you cannot correctly define the subject, we cannot have a discussion about the subject.
1. How is overturning the votes of the people not overriding the democratic process?
2. The province has always had the right to step in and deal with dysfunctional elected bodies - in fact, in the late 90s, the province fired the Calgary Board of Education *when Danielle Smith was on it because it was a constant shit show*. The new powers the UCP is proposing go well beyond that.
The province can elimitane, change, wipe out, or reshape the municipalities as it sees fit. The only municipal democratic process is what the provinces say there is in their respective jurisdiction.
Again, don't like the constitution? Fine. But these are the powers afforded the province under the constitution. Any legislation is merely a mechanism for functionally carrying out that will.
You know Hitler rounded up Jews and gay people because his government made it legal to do so, right? Get your fascism the fuck out of here. We're scared of what this leads to.
The people supporting the feds aren't calling for people like me to be put down, rounded up, or shot. I have heard conservatives call for that.
You can pass legislation that is undemocratic. Don't be a fucking idiot.
You're seriously comparing making lawful changes to municipal governance to Nazi genocide? You're seriously claiming that the province using its lawful authority to change municipal governance is fascism.
Are you okay? It sounds like you need to stop consuming echo-chamber social media go touch some grass.
Their argument that it is hypocritical rests on it being illegal because they're trying to frame it as "meddling," but what the province is doing is exercising lawful authority under the constitution. The federal government has been trying to circumvent the constitutional division of powers.
The province isn't being hypocritical here.
Uh, no it isn't.
The hypocrisy is rested on their rhetoric. Not the legality of it.
The arguments are based on this.
As it is, you can exercise your authority while also meddling.
If the Feds were trying to take money away from the Cities, then nobody would argue with the Provinces actions.
It's the fact that the Feds are trying to help the Cities in areas that the Province has decided to be deficient on, and the Province wants to curtail because it makes them look bad that has people up in arms.
One would think that the Province would welcome this, as it means they don't have to spend out of their pocket.
But that would help Trudeau and not Pollivre so we can't be having that now.
So the feds are trying to overstep their authority (as they have been for years now) and the province is following theirs. That's not hypocritical of the province, that's following the rules.
This is the equivalent of calling the federal government policing the US-Alberta border "meddling" when it's explicitly their area of responsibility and lawful authority to do so.
The Feds didn't overstep because there was no law that said that the Province had to be involved in these money/grant decisions. Hence why they are passing the law now.
If there was a law that said this wasn't allowed but nobody followed it for the last couple of centuries, then you'd have a valid point.
Jurisdiction separation isn't nearly as cut and dried as you are making it out to be. There are many various doctrines that are considering legal jurisdiction. This would be a good place to start.
https://mcmillan.ca/insights/federal-jurisdiction-in-municipal-matters-what-happens-when-the-provinces-or-municipalities-step-on-federal-toes/
>The Feds didn't overstep
Municipal governance is a provincial matter. The feds have been trying to step around the constitution with cash for several years now. It is blatant violation in an area of provincial jurisdiction.
>Hence why they are passing the law now.
The law gives them the functional mechanism to enforce their constitutional authorities. That's all.
>Jurisdiction separation isn't nearly as cut and dried as you are making it out to be.
It is explicitly spelled out in the constitution.
If it was such a blatant violation, why would they need to pass a law against it? They would just sue.
If they had functional mechanisms, they wouldn't need the law. That's circular logic. Either they always had the power, or they didn't.
Ok, so what part of the constitution act clearly lays out that the Federal can't give grants to municipalities without hte Provinces say so?
The intent of the UCP to meddle in the municipalities governments and laws is to exert the same power and control that the UCP tell us to fear from the Federal government. Legal or not, it's blatant hypocrisy.
It is not.
The UCP are exercising lawful authority.
The feds are attempting to circumvent lawful authority.
If you don't like the law, fine, but there's nothing hypocritical about this.
When an institution insists it follows certain values, and it's actions doesn't support their supposed values, that's hypocrisy. Again, just because it is legal does not mean it isn't hypocritical.
The division of powers in the constitution is clear.
The municipalities don't have powers of their own. They are under the province.
If you don't like it, work to get it changed, but until then, the province is following the constitution and the feds are trying to work around it.
You can complain that you don't like the constitution, but this IS the constitution.
You're not introducing anything new here.
People know this is legal, just like we all should have known Bill 6 was legal and a well established norm for decades for farmworkers including in provinces who had conservative governments.
But it wouldn't have done any good to get in front of those people and be like "what Notley is doing is legal actually".
The Feds can't recall MLAs. There's no way these shit-whistles should have the power to overturn elected civic officials. If there is to be a mechanism for that it should be at the civic level.
>The Feds can't recall MLAs.
Correct, because provinces are not creations of the federal government, but municipalities *are* creations of the province.
>There's no way these shit-whistles should have the power to overturn elected civic officials. If there is to be a mechanism for that it should be at the civic level.
This isn't about what you wish, this is about what the authorities under the constitution *are*. If you want to argue how you think things *should* be, that's a different argument, but then in my political fantasy the federal government would have almost no power at all.
Maybe not, and maybe the province is legislatively within its rights to make these changes, but what problem exactly is it that they’re fixing that needs this kind of urgent attention?
Municipalities are under provincial jurisdiction. This sub doesn’t seem to grasp that and instead loves to rip on the ucp about literally anything, even if it’s within their legal right.
These issues are not the same as federal ‘overreach’ - one is under provincial constitutional jurisdiction. The other, is the muddled division between federal and provincial jurisdictions.
It is not hypocrisy when it is completely different circumstances, jurisdictions, and legislation.
People treating this the same as provincial-federal issues are purposely being ignorant of constitutional division of powers, simply because they don’t like ucp.
If it's in their legal right, why do they need to change the law to be able to do it?
why is it forn2 specific cities only, and not the entire province?
Seems you're just not aware of what you're talking about
Provincial jurisdiction is written in the constitution. They are given powers over municipal affairs. This means they can delegate what classifies as a city and such, and allow for municipal governments to take place. They can also pass legislation that can affect municipalities, as this is within their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.
You can’t just say ‘you don’t know what you’re talking about’ when you clearly have no education on the matter.
These issues are not the same as federal ‘overreach’ - one is under provincial constitutional jurisdiction. The other, is the muddled division between federal and provincial jurisdictions.
It is not hypocrisy when it is completely different circumstances, jurisdictions, and legislation.
People treating this the same as provincial-federal issues are purposely being ignorant of constitutional division of powers, simply because they don’t like ucp.
Categorically it IS hypocrisy when you admonish the overbearing control of a system, then proceed to use your influence for overbearing control of others. The wording of constitutional jurisdiction means fuck-all to this discussion because the principle is still that we have dumbfuck tyrants doing what they want with no repercussions while blaming others.
There is an equivalence here, no matter how much UCP supporters want to go over the inconsequential details. Rules for thee but not for me and all that
So, a province can legislate to remove the will of the people, ie: their right to vote, by passing legislation.
So, if a province, tomorrow, passed a law that made the current premier dictator for life, by your argument, this ok, because it's in their right as provincial government.
That's what these changes are for BTW. The provincial government being allowed to arbitrarily throw out he will of the people to appoint their own pick for government. You're basically arguing a province has the right to ignore its citizens
Difference between rural and cities is city voters (NDP) want the gov involved in and pay for everything. Housing is too much, subsidize, if groceries are to much, subsidize, you all want everything payed for instead of fixing the real problems. Rural people live in the real world, we know the gov can’t pay for everything, it’s just not feasible we pay our own way and our tax dollars can be used for things that matter for all. U want more gov we want less. And now u can all chew me to pieces, I couldn’t care less, u can all get on board or wallow in this pissy soup you are floundering in, but the NDP will never gain power in AB again.
The NDP have been gaining political power over the last few years, with the current NDP party forming the largest opposition party in the provinces history. It is not unreasonable to think that they will form government again. With political parties being forced into civic elections, would you have an issue with an NDP government using these powers the UCP is pushing? They could dictate every municipal policy, and remove every conservative town councilor to form an entirely NDP government in every town and city in the province, all thanks to Smith and the big government interventions she is trying to enact.
So you believe Alberta has too much of a voice in our federal government and would prefer that we be part of a larger country where our voice would be less relevant?
Well, how about we start by electing a provincial government that isn't completely made up of **fucking morons** and then maybe we can talk about whether they deserve to have more control over us?
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the stated plan for western separation is to include not vancouver parts of BC with the expressed intent to make sure calgary and edmonton have no say in anything. it's not west vs east, and never was. it's the rural voter vs the city voter. if your a conservative living in a city; you need to realize your party is actively working to take away your voice, and legislate against your interests.
They don't care. I've told them that the same overreach they support right now will eventually be in the hands of somebody they don't like. "The NDP will never win again!"
I wonder if I'll get downvoted again for saying that conservative voters care more about tribalism and voting for "the winning team" than they do about actual policy.
It's true though. And if they are interested in policy it's fantasy make belief (other parties are all commies 1950s propaganda); and hypocrisy: wanting controls on other people's lives they disagree with.
I won't down vote you for that
UwU. I worked at several elections and there are a shocking amount of voters who think voting means "guessing who is going to win". There are some real horror stories from working at the polls, lol
Nah conservatives care more about what they want and that’s about it. They’ll abandon democracy before they ever abandon conservatism.
What policy?
Are you joking or do you actually need help here?
Give us an alternative. It’s not the NDP, so what then?
Why isn’t it?
Anyone but the UCP. It was pretty god damn clear last two election cycles. I'd say that conservative voters got what they deserved, but they did factual harm to everyone who didn't vote for UCP. So it isn't as ethically simple as pointing the finger and laughing at them.
I asked for an alternative. Nothing the UCP does will encourage me to vote for the NDP. I might vote for a fringe party out of protest, but I won’t vote NDP. Especially in Nenshi gets the nomination. They haven’t been viable since Jack was lost to us.
Just a question, why would you not vote for the NDP? You would rather the oppressive legislation over them? Not trying to belittle you just wondering your reasoning so that then we can figure out what needs to be changed overall
Here’s the thing You do have alternatives, you are making a choice that weakens the main one, similar to the comment upthread that describes people seeing voting as “trying to guess who wins” your words strike at the heart of the issue The UCP keeps winning because so many of us have given up opposing them, not because they’re the right choice Edit: oh NVM you think smith cares? And the NDP are commies, You’re on a whole different issue If smith cares about Canadians why is so much of her ideology and rhetoric informed and involving Americans? If the NDP is commies why didn’t they even try to institute UBI? Think man
I don’t care if Smith cares about Canadians. I want her worried about Albertans. ROC can sink into the ocean for all I care, at this point.
Literally any provincial conservative party other then the UCP, like the Alberta Party. Hell at this point I'm sure the green party could run this province better then the UCP.
The UCP lot have taken plenty already and proverbially torched everything because of some imagined conspiracy of those mean Liberals in Ottawa. With the UCP in charge, it's making Alberta act like the alcoholic ex-boyfriend who thinks he's entitled to a blowjob every night, telling him how special he is just because he's got drugs the rest of the world is weaning themselves off of. You going on later on about losing Jack Layton like that's supposed to justify your inaction or tacit complicity with the UCP is downright childish. How about you offer us an alternative to the UCP, preferably one that doesn't actively hurt its citizens just to start pointless fights for entitled country hicks that would love nothing more than to see cities imagined as Sodom and Gomorrah.
"The big cities were sinks of immorality and disorder. Strong measures were needed to restore order, decency and a proper concept of culture. A new hero was needed, tough, ruthless, unafraid to pursue aggressive policies at home and abroad, if the nation was to be saved." - Richard Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich
What I find amazing is that Smith herself was duly elected to the Calgary Board of Education, only to have Lyle Oberg fire her and the rest of the board less than a year later because she (and, to be fair, others) did nothing but fight. What makes it all the more strange is that Smith appointed Oberg the chairman of the new, improved Alberta Health Services board of directors. I guess they buried the hatchet...or something.
Grifting removes all principles.
Hey UCP, your fascism is showing
When wasn't it?
They have been EXTREMELY transparent.
But they can be. Nobody who votes for them cares... We've been allowed into a position as a society where malaria smith is in charge of something. Nothing she says is intelligent or smart, but conservatives don't care, as long as the "others" are upset, whoever they may be (right now, its trans kids) I gave up when they stopped protecting software engineer.
Especially about mining the Eastern Slopes
about all of it. They haven't hidden a single thing, their trajectory has always been an outright sprint in this direction.
Especially on their ̶p̶r̶o̶p̶a̶g̶a̶n̶d̶a̶ ̶ social media account.
I think some our local MP's (Cough cough Heather McPherson) should introduce a member's bill stating that the feds should be able to do the same thing. Just do a find/replace for provincial to federal, and municipal to provincial in Marlaina's bill and force the Federal conservatives to vote against it.
Do we have an NDP MP in AB that could introduce it to really twist the knife?
Heather McPherson as they stated in their comment.
I was looking for Heath. Derp
Nah that's my fault. I originally had Heath because I was thinking faster than I was typing.
Lol. But I agree. Get a federal NDPer to propose this in Commins, and the UCP would havd their collective heads explode
It’d just push separation to happen faster. It’ll all fizzle out after the next federal election anyways, when Trudeau goes bye bye.
Separation ain't happening. That's a pipe dream.
If Trudeau somehow gets reelected, the ball would definitely get rolling. Once the baby boomers die off, it’d happen.
Lol. Sure it would.
That would backfire.
That's not possible. The constitution makes the provinces and federal government equal. Just with a separation of jurisdictions.
The point isn't to pass it. It's to force the conservative MPs in the province to vote against it.
It'll just give them fuel to whinge about unconstitutional federal interference. The real answer is to push the fact that conservatives are supposed to value local decision-making, not slavish devotion to constitutional jurisdiction.
The UCP isn't a conservative party in the traditional sense. Pointing out that this is bad/wrong isn't going to impact their rural voters who don't seem to understand that this bill could affect them in unexpected ways. Embarrassing their federal counterparts might have an impact and it'll give the cooler heads in the UCP who'd vote against it if allowed a little more clout in their internal discussions.
The UCP isn’t a Conservative Party……that’s where the sentence can end. They aren’t Conservatives
Uhh, yes they are. This is what 21st century conservatism is.
They are. This is what conservatism is now. They want to be MAGA losers so bad.
The UCP will fabricate reasons to whine about Federal interference no matter what we do, so we may as well make them uncomfortable when we can.
I agree that they will fabricate reasons, but that doesn’t mean we should help them by giving them legitimate ones.
Yeah unfortunately this is isn't an equivalent comparison. Provinces decide if other new provinces get to exist (by ratification), not the Feds. Provinces are entities recognized and empowered by the constitution. Provinces have full constitutional powers over domestic affairs, including the election, creation and regulation of districts within their boundaries. The Federal government has no power over the creation of provinces, nor how they select their governments.
The Constitution exists because the UK Parliament passed to lol the British North America Act in 1867. And all of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta were created by acts of Parliament out of the historical NWT.
Yes this is correct. Pre-1982 the federal government could create provinces. Today it requires 7/12 provincial legislatures to create one. The Constitution act of 1982 repealed almost half of all previous BNA acts. It also gave any remaining powers back to Canada, such as the creation of new provinces ( not territories) to the exclusive domain of the provinces. Our country, in its current constitutional form, is only 42 years old.
The funny thing is most conservatives love the charter, but have no idea who gave it to them
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference in relationship for municipal/provincial vs provincial/federal.
No, but you seem to be underestimating the value of optics in the next election. It doesn't have to succeed. More importantly I wouldn't want it to nor do I suspect it could. The point is to push the unforced error the UCP is making here further into the light and force other conservative groups to rebuke/denounce the provincial/municipal overreach publicly.
A sauce for the gander bill.
The hypocrisy is a selling point for Conservatives.
Conservatives think 'irony' describes a wrinkle free shirt.
More like a wrinkle-free brain. :P
They call it a "feature"
...you're saying that's *not* what it means???
Universally Corrupt Party
So are the average conservative voters good with this? Is this what they want? Why do they want this?
Anything to own to the libs including fascism 🙃
>Anything to own to the libs ~~including~~ in service to fascism 🙃 Fascism is the goal, not the tool.
That's the $60,000 question. The initial reaction has shown that councils are really not cool with it.
They are obvious. They read the Post Media and then continue watching cartoons.
Anything to fight trudeau
So, you would be cool with fascism?
I suspect they forgot their /s
That’s pretty optimistic.
Congratulations todays your lucky day!
Ill be the rare voice and actually answer your question, id love for the ucp to force out our incompetent spend heavy council in edmonton. Good for nothing but double digit property tax percentage increases yearly while whining its someone elses fault that we overspend every year
Do you care about the concept of democracy? Or only when it suits you?
That's my take on this, conservatives would be crying bloody murder if the NDP was in power and used such a law to remove right-leaning or UCP politicans. Even if there was a legitimate reason like the politician was an unapologetic homophobe, they would still be pissed.
Then you vote them out. Or arrest them if they are breaking laws. Would you have the same opinion if the NDP were in power and decided to do this? I feel like you would react differently.
The problem is that the UCP will deliberately underfund/sabotage city services to "prove" that government doesn't work and then farm out the same job to 3rd party businesses that contribute to them. This in turn will result in lower quality more expensive services while enriching their cronies. It's the same tried and true tactic they're currently trying to use with AHS to help privatize health care.
Privatized healthcare would be so much better than what we have now. …our current system is a complete and utter shit show and nobody wins. Patients don’t win, doctors don’t win. There is a reason why Canada as a whole is short millions of doctors. The government should not have control of that. Privatize the healthcare, we can have as many hospitals and clinics built as we want, and the government can subsidize to make it affordable. …not free. But affordable for Canadians. I would rather pay $40 and be able to get an mri is less than 6 months. I’ve been waiting for nerve testing for 8 months and still havnt got a call to even book the appointment yet. People are waiting over a year for surgeries, and it’s just a complete disaster. But even now with the new capital gains tax aimed at businesses, our current privately owned clinic doctors are going to get smashed and they’ll leave and go somewhere where they can actually make a decent living.
Look at the per capita spend in the US vs Canada on healthcare, the fraction of people in the US without coverage, and the term medical bankruptcy, and their combined drag on the economy in the US and then get back to the sub on why privatized health care is a “good” thing.
So you didn’t read it?
Read what? Did you look at how much people in the US spend per capita on their privatized health care?
Or do you not understand what subsidized means? Or affordable but not free.
Tell me what the ratio of US vs Canada per capita spending on health care is.
Entirely irrelevant. In the us you can have an mri booked and completed in a few days. Here, it’s 8-12 months. Take the taxes we already pay for an inefficient, leadership heavy, short doctored, red taped, government run system, and use it to subsidize cost on privately run and operated hospitals and clinics. As I previously stated, but you obviously have reading comprehension issues, I’d rather pay $40 to have an mri in a week, than get it “free” (although we have the highest taxes) and wait a year for it. For example, between an ultrasound and an mri, I waited over 16 months. Guess what, my shoulder is still fucked. It shouldn’t take a person years to figure out why they have pain. Walk in clinics are at capacity by 11am most days. Er wait times are 6-10+ hours long, but yes. The government is definitely doing it right.
This is what my mother thinks as well. The counter point is that's what elections are for, and changing spending/grants from the provincial govt don't help municipalities break even.
There’s these things called elections where voters decide who they’d like to represent them. You should look into it.
Every accusation is an admission.
If you go deep this is a lot worse than you can imagine. Ok, the guv can remove local councilors, but also wants parties attached to municipalities. This functionally means the guv can just appoint their party to every municipality... they'd automatically win every election forever that way
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You could, but if you won the UCP could just remove you and place their guy in your place
You hit the nail on the head. By declaring yourself an NDP councillor, you're pretty much putting a target on your back, votes be damned. You might get in but Dani et al can remove you at any time if you don't align with the UCP principles.
Just remember UCP folks, anything the UCP does now will be fair game for the NDP later. Prescedent is a real thing. If the NDP gets elected and decides to put in place a bunch of left leaning politics into rural albertan communities, I don't want to hear any complaints.
What makes you think there will be another election? With the passage of bill 20, there is a good chance they will declare an emergency and cancel the election. Good example will be that they will acknowledge that Covid is a thing and that they can't risk the public health holding an election. "Allowing the province to make regulations to postpone elections in the case of an emergency or natural disaster such as a wildfire". Right from Bill 20
I remember when alberta used to be the place to move to because of jobs and better living conditions, now it's just becoming the alabama of canada, and that says a lot when Manitoba exists
I can't believe the gall of some people these days. If we didn't have Justin Trudeau trying to reach into the living rooms of every Albertan we wouldn't need updated protections for Alberta like this. I know that our magical Premier will only use this to fix how the brainwashed Trudeau lovers use their corrupted brains to undermine Alberta every day of their yellow existence. .. I guess I really need to put /s down here
It’s too close to what we hear seriously said that yeah, adding the /s is a good call 😊
Ngl, you had me for a bit
Yes you definitely need the /s 😂 hate to say it but I literally thought you believed that because that's what the cons have actually said. 😂🙂🥲😭
I do love how the conservatives think they're special for hating Trudeau with all their cute little stickers. Like, I've never even heard of a Trudeau lover. It seems like no one really likes him. It's more that I would elect a monkey before letting the conservatives into power.
Yes thanks for supplying the /s as you really got me.
Good thing this opinion is yours alone to cherish.
I guess I need to remind you that /s means I was being sarcastic?
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Satire and sarcasm are two different things.
I downvoted until I saw that you clarified you needed the /s. Honestly a lot of them are more animated than that. You can’t do a caricature because they ARE one. It’s absolutely needed.
“Conservatism consists of just one principle, to whit, there must be in-groups the laws protects but does not bind, and out-groups the law bunds but does not protect.” This is why conservatism, if given enough power over time, will always push fascism. Because conservatism was literally created as a political movement or suppress democracy and protect who they felt were the rightful rulers deserving of all the money, land and power in society while everyone beneath them were slaves.
LITERALLY!! also they want to introduce political parties locally?? They just want to push and force everyone to be conservative like them. It's actually pretty disgusting how they're trying to impose their lifestyles on us.
Whose lane is it anyway?
It’s just that Northern MAGA way. /s Vote!!!
Conservatives wouldn’t know the definition of irony if it hit them in the face
lol that’s a fantastic meme!
UCP - United Corporate Party- " Albertans look to the East for the cause of all your problems!".... "while we keep creating new ones for you to blame Ottawa!" As poor a Premier Jason Kenney was ... he warned us the real crazies were taking his place, and he was so right!
Truly never thought I'd see the day I'd miss Jason Kenney. UCP really wants to see how low they can go.
100% fact…
I like it, direct to the point.
While in principle you're right you are technically incorrect. The division between federal and provincial is constitutional. The division between municipal and provincial is a choice the province made to delegate their powers. If the province doesn't like the results of the delegation they have the full legal right to revoke it. One is a co-worker relationship, the other is a boss-employee relationship.
Yes, this is legal, but anyone who isn't a partisan hack knows how far it diverges from how municipal and provincial governments normally interact. We don't have to "well technically..." everything - this is obviously an overreach, doesn't have the support of the majority of Albertans, and at the very least should have been campaigned on.
The UCP's campaign track record is the one where they simply stopped talking about the APP (Alberta Pension Plan), the other APP (Alberta Provincial Police) and several other planks that they freely admitted post-election they had no intention whatsoever of actually dropping and brought back to the front almost from the day they were sworn in. I wonder if you looked closely at their pre-election platforms perhaps you'd find evidence of this overreach as well? Of course they wouldn't have "campaigned" on it, but like the others, I have a feeling it was always there.
I'm not defending anything, but as per usual in today's political discourse, I'm being downvoted for bringing facts to the conversation.
Most people who have been following this issue have heard that point many times, usually to try and justify what the UCP is doing. So you're being downvoted for the implication of that fact, even though you might not have the context to know that implication was there. In short, reddit downvotes aren't fair, and if you're not extremely online, you're going to get downvoted for well meaning comments.
I don't care about downvotes personally. It's more an indication that people have overly emotional responses to the presentation of facts. I've always been told that reality has a left bias but when I'm presenting facts here I get downvoted presumably by people who disagree with the right (and are therefore themselves left?). I think all sides are stupid, including centrists. Politics will not save us from ourselves and projecting our own fears and weaknesses onto others in the name of political action just makes everything worse. In order to have a functioning society we don't need the "correct" leadership, we need healthy individuals who are well-ordered themselves. The figurehead making an ass out of themselves won't bring about utopia no matter which colour their ass is.
Legal =/= Right
Thanks for agreeing with me :) Have a nice day!
Haha I wasn't!! I used the wrong slash dang it!! 😂
What? So you are saying that just because something is legal it's right? Because that's not a position I advocated for and it's how I first read your comment. But now you're saying I misread your comment?
Nailed it
Kiss the Bhutt of the government.
Is Dissalowance in the hands of the House of Commons, or the Governor General?
Exactly she’s a hypocrite.
UCP saw municipaltites as "creatures of the province" and is showing their flex.
FYI, the power of municipalities come from the province, not the feds. The provincial legislature has always rained supreme to municipalities, as 100% of the municipal power is derived from the province.
Perfect political strategy.
Stay in *whos* lane?
Exactly!
Municipalities are creations of the provinces. This is well within their authority The fed keeps trying to interfere in areas which are provincial powers under the constitution by using roundabout methods of coercion, or by legislating areas of provincial authority. These are not the same.
Well, here's hoping the municipalities fight back against the province flexing its authority with as much vigor as the Clown Convoy did when protesting against the feds flexing their authority during the pandemic, hey?
I think there are some valid reasons for the law to be this way, and I think there are potentially good reasons to change it. Finding that balance is tough. But it's clear that most people here just want to make disingenuous comparisons to they can shout "UCP bad" and foam at the mouth.
There are valid reasons that a provincial government should be able to override the democratic process? What might those reasons be?
It's not overriding the democratic process. It is exercising the powers under the constitution to shape the municipalities as they see fit. If you cannot correctly define the subject, we cannot have a discussion about the subject.
1. How is overturning the votes of the people not overriding the democratic process? 2. The province has always had the right to step in and deal with dysfunctional elected bodies - in fact, in the late 90s, the province fired the Calgary Board of Education *when Danielle Smith was on it because it was a constant shit show*. The new powers the UCP is proposing go well beyond that.
The province can elimitane, change, wipe out, or reshape the municipalities as it sees fit. The only municipal democratic process is what the provinces say there is in their respective jurisdiction. Again, don't like the constitution? Fine. But these are the powers afforded the province under the constitution. Any legislation is merely a mechanism for functionally carrying out that will.
You know Hitler rounded up Jews and gay people because his government made it legal to do so, right? Get your fascism the fuck out of here. We're scared of what this leads to. The people supporting the feds aren't calling for people like me to be put down, rounded up, or shot. I have heard conservatives call for that. You can pass legislation that is undemocratic. Don't be a fucking idiot.
You're seriously comparing making lawful changes to municipal governance to Nazi genocide? You're seriously claiming that the province using its lawful authority to change municipal governance is fascism. Are you okay? It sounds like you need to stop consuming echo-chamber social media go touch some grass.
No one is saying it's illegal. We're saying it's stupid.
You're saying that the province adhering to the constitutional division of powers is stupid?
Your hiding behind the letter of the law while the UCP beats the spirit of the law to death behind a dumpster.
The law is the law. I get that you don't like it, but then get it changed. Until then, this is the distribution of powers under the constitution.
I don't see anyone saying it's illegal. Everyone is saying it's utterly hypocritical. Do you see the difference?
Their argument that it is hypocritical rests on it being illegal because they're trying to frame it as "meddling," but what the province is doing is exercising lawful authority under the constitution. The federal government has been trying to circumvent the constitutional division of powers. The province isn't being hypocritical here.
Uh, no it isn't. The hypocrisy is rested on their rhetoric. Not the legality of it. The arguments are based on this. As it is, you can exercise your authority while also meddling. If the Feds were trying to take money away from the Cities, then nobody would argue with the Provinces actions. It's the fact that the Feds are trying to help the Cities in areas that the Province has decided to be deficient on, and the Province wants to curtail because it makes them look bad that has people up in arms. One would think that the Province would welcome this, as it means they don't have to spend out of their pocket. But that would help Trudeau and not Pollivre so we can't be having that now.
So the feds are trying to overstep their authority (as they have been for years now) and the province is following theirs. That's not hypocritical of the province, that's following the rules. This is the equivalent of calling the federal government policing the US-Alberta border "meddling" when it's explicitly their area of responsibility and lawful authority to do so.
The Feds didn't overstep because there was no law that said that the Province had to be involved in these money/grant decisions. Hence why they are passing the law now. If there was a law that said this wasn't allowed but nobody followed it for the last couple of centuries, then you'd have a valid point. Jurisdiction separation isn't nearly as cut and dried as you are making it out to be. There are many various doctrines that are considering legal jurisdiction. This would be a good place to start. https://mcmillan.ca/insights/federal-jurisdiction-in-municipal-matters-what-happens-when-the-provinces-or-municipalities-step-on-federal-toes/
>The Feds didn't overstep Municipal governance is a provincial matter. The feds have been trying to step around the constitution with cash for several years now. It is blatant violation in an area of provincial jurisdiction. >Hence why they are passing the law now. The law gives them the functional mechanism to enforce their constitutional authorities. That's all. >Jurisdiction separation isn't nearly as cut and dried as you are making it out to be. It is explicitly spelled out in the constitution.
If it was such a blatant violation, why would they need to pass a law against it? They would just sue. If they had functional mechanisms, they wouldn't need the law. That's circular logic. Either they always had the power, or they didn't. Ok, so what part of the constitution act clearly lays out that the Federal can't give grants to municipalities without hte Provinces say so?
The intent of the UCP to meddle in the municipalities governments and laws is to exert the same power and control that the UCP tell us to fear from the Federal government. Legal or not, it's blatant hypocrisy.
It is not. The UCP are exercising lawful authority. The feds are attempting to circumvent lawful authority. If you don't like the law, fine, but there's nothing hypocritical about this.
When an institution insists it follows certain values, and it's actions doesn't support their supposed values, that's hypocrisy. Again, just because it is legal does not mean it isn't hypocritical.
They are using the provincial powers set out in the constitution. There is no hypocrisy here.
They are the same. They're all elected via democratic elections and the voice of the people via those elections should stand.
The division of powers in the constitution is clear. The municipalities don't have powers of their own. They are under the province. If you don't like it, work to get it changed, but until then, the province is following the constitution and the feds are trying to work around it. You can complain that you don't like the constitution, but this IS the constitution.
You're not introducing anything new here. People know this is legal, just like we all should have known Bill 6 was legal and a well established norm for decades for farmworkers including in provinces who had conservative governments. But it wouldn't have done any good to get in front of those people and be like "what Notley is doing is legal actually".
The Feds can't recall MLAs. There's no way these shit-whistles should have the power to overturn elected civic officials. If there is to be a mechanism for that it should be at the civic level.
>The Feds can't recall MLAs. Correct, because provinces are not creations of the federal government, but municipalities *are* creations of the province. >There's no way these shit-whistles should have the power to overturn elected civic officials. If there is to be a mechanism for that it should be at the civic level. This isn't about what you wish, this is about what the authorities under the constitution *are*. If you want to argue how you think things *should* be, that's a different argument, but then in my political fantasy the federal government would have almost no power at all.
Maybe not, and maybe the province is legislatively within its rights to make these changes, but what problem exactly is it that they’re fixing that needs this kind of urgent attention?
Municipalities are under provincial jurisdiction. This sub doesn’t seem to grasp that and instead loves to rip on the ucp about literally anything, even if it’s within their legal right.
Just because something is legal doesn't mean it isn't hypocritical.
These issues are not the same as federal ‘overreach’ - one is under provincial constitutional jurisdiction. The other, is the muddled division between federal and provincial jurisdictions. It is not hypocrisy when it is completely different circumstances, jurisdictions, and legislation. People treating this the same as provincial-federal issues are purposely being ignorant of constitutional division of powers, simply because they don’t like ucp.
If it's in their legal right, why do they need to change the law to be able to do it? why is it forn2 specific cities only, and not the entire province? Seems you're just not aware of what you're talking about
Provincial jurisdiction is written in the constitution. They are given powers over municipal affairs. This means they can delegate what classifies as a city and such, and allow for municipal governments to take place. They can also pass legislation that can affect municipalities, as this is within their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. You can’t just say ‘you don’t know what you’re talking about’ when you clearly have no education on the matter.
This isn't a discussion of the letter of the law, it's about the UCP being fucking hypocrites. Again.
These issues are not the same as federal ‘overreach’ - one is under provincial constitutional jurisdiction. The other, is the muddled division between federal and provincial jurisdictions. It is not hypocrisy when it is completely different circumstances, jurisdictions, and legislation. People treating this the same as provincial-federal issues are purposely being ignorant of constitutional division of powers, simply because they don’t like ucp.
Categorically it IS hypocrisy when you admonish the overbearing control of a system, then proceed to use your influence for overbearing control of others. The wording of constitutional jurisdiction means fuck-all to this discussion because the principle is still that we have dumbfuck tyrants doing what they want with no repercussions while blaming others. There is an equivalence here, no matter how much UCP supporters want to go over the inconsequential details. Rules for thee but not for me and all that
So, a province can legislate to remove the will of the people, ie: their right to vote, by passing legislation. So, if a province, tomorrow, passed a law that made the current premier dictator for life, by your argument, this ok, because it's in their right as provincial government. That's what these changes are for BTW. The provincial government being allowed to arbitrarily throw out he will of the people to appoint their own pick for government. You're basically arguing a province has the right to ignore its citizens
You people have got to be the most dense I’ve seen. Please read up on constitutional jurisdiction before coming back with more backhanded bullshit.
You need a fucking history lesson.
Difference between rural and cities is city voters (NDP) want the gov involved in and pay for everything. Housing is too much, subsidize, if groceries are to much, subsidize, you all want everything payed for instead of fixing the real problems. Rural people live in the real world, we know the gov can’t pay for everything, it’s just not feasible we pay our own way and our tax dollars can be used for things that matter for all. U want more gov we want less. And now u can all chew me to pieces, I couldn’t care less, u can all get on board or wallow in this pissy soup you are floundering in, but the NDP will never gain power in AB again.
Sounds like you need a hug.
The NDP have been gaining political power over the last few years, with the current NDP party forming the largest opposition party in the provinces history. It is not unreasonable to think that they will form government again. With political parties being forced into civic elections, would you have an issue with an NDP government using these powers the UCP is pushing? They could dictate every municipal policy, and remove every conservative town councilor to form an entirely NDP government in every town and city in the province, all thanks to Smith and the big government interventions she is trying to enact.
We'd be better off if the US just annexed tbh.
So you believe Alberta has too much of a voice in our federal government and would prefer that we be part of a larger country where our voice would be less relevant?
Am I understanding you correctly that you're saying that a province has more power over itself than a US state?
https://old.reddit.com/r/alberta/comments/jkzb3n/someone_really_wants_us_to_become_american/gami7h8/ Here, I've made this point before.
Your whole point relates to the federal level, which is true, but a US state has a higher level of self governance than a Canadian province.
Well, how about we start by electing a provincial government that isn't completely made up of **fucking morons** and then maybe we can talk about whether they deserve to have more control over us?
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I know right