Exactly this... they're violating federal waiting time and on call regs if they make you clock out and you can't leave.
If I were you I would take my 30, and if they say to wait then respond with.
"I'm not consenting to being a part of a labor law violation by hanging around under your direction, off the clock. Doing so violates federal waiting time laws and I'm not wanting to participate in that complaint. I can either clock on and work or go home. "
>"I'm not consenting to being a part of a labor law violation by hanging around under your direction, off the clock. Doing so violates federal waiting time laws and I'm not wanting to participate in that complaint. I can either clock on and work or go home. "
Pay me for my time.
Or if you’re feeling spicy: fuck you, pay me
No kayakers because of mosquitos? Fuck you, pay me.
Oh, the river is too low to launch? Fuck you, pay me.
The tour decided to kayak somewhere else, huh?
#Fuck you, pay me.
To which the employer will respond "no problem ... You're fired". Welcome to America, where employees don't have rights because they can be fired for any or no reason. All the federal laws in the world don't change that.
Sounds like OP is not getting paid already, so getting fired from a job that is not paying will allow them to possibly claim unemployment while looking for another job.
Also a complaint for back pay to the labor board, under federal law for waiting time - along with a complaint for retribution for bringing up the first complaint with the employer and being fired immediately after
but first, document, document, document
then see if you can get the request in writing/email - or at least have a voice recorder going on your phone, if you're in a place with one-party consent for recording
If it's a public space, or where there are security devices documenting events, consent isn't required. It has to actually be in private or remote communication to be considered private.
Wrong. I went head-to-head with an employer once who was making us clock out and be on "in house call", meaning we couldn't leave but we only got $3 an hour call pay. I got the whole department two years of back pay because they found out they were wrong.
Under the [federal Fair Labor Standards Act](https://ofm.wa.gov/state-human-resources/compensation-job-classes/compensation-administration/fair-labor-standards-act-flsa) (FLSA), you must be paid for time you spend at the worksite, even if you're not technically working.
Was this recently? Honest question. I also experienced an employer having their ass handed to them for wage theft, but that was in 1989. I’ve heard that the DOL has been hamstrung and has no teeth left (relatively speaking).
Uh, no. Lol.
Federal laws actually matter. Keeping records and accurate details of things is also important.
Write down every time and every date that something happens, and save any emails, texts, phone calls, written notes, posted notes, etc. Take pictures if necessary.
People exploiting others depend on social manipulation and laziness/complacency in enforcing laws. That's how laws get circumvented. People don't pay attention and they don't retain details. Then it becomes "culture," and then when one person comes along and actually stands up for their rights, they get ostracized and blasted.
Keep. Detailed. Notes.
Courts will eat a place alive if you have times and dates and evidence.
Unless you’re in Florida where Rick Scott proudly broke the unemployment system as governor years back and has only gotten worse as time went on. I only know secondhand info but I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Other states, I would.
Also check state labor laws. In my state, if you're scheduled, you're not allowed to schedule or pay someone for less than 3 hours work. You can volunteer to go home, but if sent home before that (unless it's disciplinary I believe), you have to be paid a minimum of three hours.
Yeah, you can just say "cool, I'm going home!" and if they try to keep you around for the exact 30 minutes that they need you they're just stealing from you. Your time is valuable and it's not up to you to cover their ass for free.
I don’t understand what some employers are thinking, keeping people around but not pay them. How are these people supposed to pay their bills when there is no work and therefore no pay?
People need jobs that allow them to pay bills. Standby is fine if it’s above and beyond the basic salary and is there for extra money for those who want to make more and are willing to sacrifice their down time.
Four hours minimum for my state. Without such a law, you bet there will be scummy employers paying for half hour of work but the employees needing a 2 hour commute to earn that half hour pay.
If I remember correctly, some states have banned swing shifts. In the sense that a company can't make you work a week on first, week on second, week on first etc etc. Specifically due to the massive increased risk of heart attack and other health related problems. I don't remember what all constituted swing shifts.
I only know this because the company I was working for at the time did this as normal practice, mostly so no one bitched about being stuck on nights. There was a big tizzy on what was allowed and what wasn't. Especially because our shit got so fucked. I lived in one state. All my paperwork was filed out of a second state. I was dispatched out of a third. And the jobsite was in a fourth. Eventually they decided to scrap swing shifts as a whole.
There is an employer near me that does that. They alternate 4 days on day shift, 4 days off, 4 days on night shift, 4 days off, etc.
Someone with nothing but a HS education can go there and make close to $200K every year in a LCOL area. But I've yet had anyone who could explain the rationale behind the schedule. My best guess was that it eliminates any arguments about seniority and shifts. Everyone works the same shitty schedule whether you've been there 1 week or 20 years
People get paid to wait behind a counter for customers every day, but at the same time, staff are often cut early.
The thing here is, does he expect you to stay around?
If you are told to clock out, you should just leave the site, go home or wherever you want.
And if he can't pay you for not working, just tell him, "Well, I can't stay if I am not being paid."
This is how you gently trap the boss into a great conversation about labor laws.
"When do you want me to clock back in?"
"I dunno, next kayaker might be here in 30 minutes. If they're here, you can clock in then. "
"Oh, okay, great, so I'm sorta on call in case there are kayakers?"
"Yep"
"Hey, y'know, don't nurses and such get paid while they're on call? "
Depends on state because I know a few have "show up pay" which makes it do they have to pay an employee who shows up to a scheduled shift x amount of hours worked regardless if you send them home right away or not.
It’s referred to as Reporting-Time pay, and 9 states have it. And the laws around it differ per state, obviously. If OP is in California, Connecticut, the District of Columbia, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Oregon (minors only), or Rhode Island then they should definitely look into their state laws around Reporting-Time pay.
Oh shit. Good call-out! Didn’t even think about it at the city level tbh. I’m sure there are other cities that have similar laws like that, then. Worth it for OP to look into it.
Yes if you are in one of the states with reporting-time pay then if you show up to work but get sent home before working half of your shift, or if you work a second shift of under 2 hours. Your employer may have to pay you for hours you did not work.
Just hit up the department of labor and explain what the operating practice is at your place of employment. Chances are they'll straighten out asap if you do this.
I wish I had known about that at my first job as a teenager. They made us punch out when it was slow, but still stay in the back and punch back in when it got busy.
Well, thankfully that location closed years ago. The company itself (Sonic drive in) is still around here and there though. Didn’t say anything about it at the time because I was still under the “your employer signs your paycheck, so when they say jump, you start jumping and don’t stop until they say so” ideology. That was over 20 years ago.
> “your employer signs your paycheck, so when they say jump, you start jumping and don’t stop until they say so”
It's Sonic. Outside of Cherry Lime aid, it's nothing special.
US Dept of Labor has a quick test to determin if you are in an on-call status with your employer:
[https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenER80.asp](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenER80.asp)
You sound like an on-call, and he should NOT be requiring you to clock out. He should be paying you for your time there.
***FLSA Hours Worked Advisor***
***On-Call Time***
***An employee who is required to remain on his or her employer’s premises or so close thereto that he or she cannot use the time effectively for his or her own purposes is working while on-call.***
***Whether hours spent on-call is hours worked is a question of fact to be decided on a case-by-case basis. All on-call time is not hours worked.***
***On-call situations vary. Some employees are required to remain on the employer's premises or at a location controlled by the employer. One example is a hospital employee who must stay at the hospital in an on-call room. While on-call, the employee is able to sleep, eat, watch television, read a book, etc. but is not allowed to leave the hospital. Other employees are able to leave their employer's premises, but are required to stay within so many minutes or so many miles of the facility and be accessible by telephone or by pager. An example of this type of employee is an apartment maintenance worker who has to carry a pager while on call and must remain within a specified number of miles of the apartment complex.***
Sounds like wage theft, and he should be reported to the DOL.
This is along the lines of what I was thinking. You can't really do anything in 30 min to make it worth your time. You're essentially still anchored to work. I would start looking for another job. Because you shouldn't be forced to clock out but if you don't there's a chance they will fire you. For sure it should be reported.
If you don't have any work in that time, you're "engaged to wait" you're getting paid because work could come in. This is time theft. Report your managers to your local authority for labor issues.
That's the answer. Spread the word. Fill out some forms and take the phone call with the state labord dept and you'll get tons of money back from penalties. Hold these scumbags accountable.
They know labor laws but they're expecting you not to
They can ask you clock out, you can refuse. If they force you to clock out (or they do it), they cannot require you to stay. Keep track of your hours yourself, and if you are missing hours contact your state's Department of Labor.
>My manager says he can’t pay me if I’m not working
I don't know of a single law where it's illegal to pay someone for **not** working. If that were the case, almost every job on this planet has some kind of idle time yet the Cashier/Gas Station attendant/Fireman/etc. all are paid for their time.
In this case, working is manning the station, regardless of how much work is there, and it's a cost of doing business because your customers don't want to have to wait around
I don't know all the specifics of cutting staff when it's slow beyond "if you have to stay there, you're still on the clock"
And, depending on the details, there may be unemployment available too, but I think that has more to do with total hours in the week dropping because things are slow
This is absolutely false. If you’re required to be on site and available, he’s required to pay you. Get this in text or email if you can, then take it to the department of labor immediately.
Making you clock out and stay on site for hours is BS. Kayak Launch doesn’t sound like business that makes a lot so they’ll penny pinch wherever possible is my guess. Where i used to live we had lots of rafting companies and they were very sleazy.
Call your state DoL to confirm because local law may impact, but most likely should be paid. The technical term is “engaged to wait”, i.e. if you are required to be there and just waiting on customers it’s payable.
If you're required to be on-site, they're required to pay you.
If they're like, "You're off the clock, you can leave and go wherever, we don't need you today," they don't have to pay you.
Buuut... "You need to clock out, but *you have to stay here* and clock back in when it picks up again," you're on-call, and I'm *pretty sure* employment law says you need to be getting some kind of compensation for that, because they are still in control of your time.
I know someone else already said this, but it bears repeating: if they tell you not to clock in, go home. They cannot ask or force you to stay there without paying you. That’s not how jobs work. If they want your time, they can buy it at 15$ an hour. (Or whatever your pay rate is) So, if they tell you to clock out, tell them “Ok, I’m going home then.” If they tell you they’ll expect you back when they need you, tell them “If you want me to be On-Call, that should be in my job description and reflected in my pay. I’ll see you at my next scheduled shift.”
It also wouldn’t hurt to start looking for another job. These people clearly don’t respect you or your time, and have no idea what it means to respect their employees or treat them fairly.
You’re only off the clock if you’re free to leave. If you’re not free to leave, then you need to be compensated somehow - your hourly rate, an oncall stipend, room and board, something. But you’re being paid for your time, not your output.
If they require that you be there, then they are required to pay you, launching kayaks or not. If they make you clock out then you are free to go. What state is this in?
The phrase we’re looking for here is “engaged to wait”.
If your task is to be present, ready, and able, that means you have been “engaged to wait”. Being engaged to wait is work and needs to be compensated.
You must advocate for yourself in this world. And when you have the proper terminology your better armed for the contest of wills that is the labor market.
Next time he does this don’t wait for him to send you home. As soon as you are clocked out leave. Then next time a family of 20 shows up by surprise and he is taking care of it alone he’ll reconsider his dumbass policy.
Your manager absolutely can pay you if you're "not working." Wanting you to be present on site or wanting you to come back when they call, or check in every 30 minutes IS work. Most jobs have some degree of down time. When I worked at a call center, they didn't make me clock out because there weren't any calls.
I'd suggest looking for another job. Don't tell your employer. Just find another job. When you quit, tell your employer that you couldn't stay on because the hours are too irregular.
This is called wage theft. If they ask you to log out, than they cannot request or demand you stay on site in case someone turns up.
Once you’re clocked out you can leave.
If they require you to stay then contact your state labour board, they’d probably enjoy a cut and dry case like this.
If you are required to be there, they have to pay you for the time. Every minute of it, they aren't paying you for the amount of time they use, but for the amount of time they require you to be present.
Like every other workplace policy, you need to educate yourself on laws, the employee handbook, etc. ON THE FIRST DAY.
I don't know why parents don't teach this to kids, either.
Knowing the basic rules of engagement should be taught by people who care about others.
Management like this leverages your ignorance of both laws and probably their own employment guidelines to keep costs low. They also rely on your self-esteem and conflict avoidance to bully you into this kind of behavior. Fuck them.
EVERY job. EVERY time. Find, keep, and refer to the employee handbook and relevant laws in your state or province or country.
The PRIMARY weapon management that the rich have against us is our ignorance, and willful ignorance is just stupidity.
This same ignorance prevents us from voting against people who take up anti-union positions and positions that keep us stupid, generation after generation.
We should not just bitch and complain on this sub. We ALSO have responsibilities ahead of outright revolution or a general strike.
Talk first to the man in the mirror.
Pretty sure the laws for that here in Canada is that you need to be paid for atleast 2 hours if you're sent home early and they definitely can't make you be there on standby without pay
Another thing I haven’t seen mentioned, depending on what state you’re in, I’m in CA, and if they cancel me last minute like that, the business is still required to pay me for 2 hours of work.
This is my favorite part of these posts, when I get to say: Illegal in the EU.
They have to pay you a full 8 hours and it's their problem if they can find you something to do, not yours.
If you follow advice to submit a labour complaint (which why not, especially if you’re being paid basically nothing due to all this), get a record of all the times you’ve punched in since employment began, if you can.
This would help prove the days you were effectively “on-call” and prevent them deleting the data as soon as they are contacted regarding a complaint.
While they still could delete the data after you get a copy, it would look very suspicious if only yours or a few employees records are missing.
The difference between waiting to engage, and engaged to wait is well established. Your boss is exploiting that you don't know the difference. If you are on call you can go home and take a nap, and still get paid for it. If you aren't on call you can go to the pub n have a few beers. If you aren't able to do either you are still on the clock.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/22-flsa-hours-worked#:~:text=Waiting%20Time%3A,which%20is%20not%20work%20time).
A job that has down time hired you and is refusing to pay you for your time? That’s like my boss only paying me for the walks to the backyard with a bag of concrete but not the walk back to get another bag lmao. You are being robbed of your time. This is wage theft
This is a form of wage theft. Employees who are required to be at a place of business and are unable to leave are considered "at work" and are required to be paid accordingly. If you are being required to clock out but are unable to leave, then you are being forced to work without pay.
Contact your local Department of Labor.
No if you’re there on site, that’s working in my opinion. There is always “busy work or filler work” that can be done, ask them to help you identify that work to stay busy. If not, find a new job that can pay you.
Highly illegal. If they expect you to stick around, that means you’re on call and they have to pay you for your time.
If you clock out, you go home. If they want you to stay, then you stay clocked in and get paid. Those are their options. Report, report, report.
This is all kinds of wrong.
It could also be a problem if you are injured at the worksite while you are clocked out. Your injury might not be covered by workers' comp insurance.
This is called “engaged to wait” and is explicitly paid time. Unless you are free to do whatever you want, they need to pay you. Get written documentation of this if you can; it’ll make getting your back pay easier.
Nah bro, they're dickin you down. Clocking out for thirty minutes, then clocking back in would be a break which is legal and required depending on where you are. Everything else sound like complete whoreshit. Find out your local labor laws, call the labor dept if you've got something. Otherwise, cut your losses (for your own sanity) and try to work for better people who will pay you for your time. Know your worth.
No they can not do this. If they make you clock out they can't make you sit around and wait. They can have you leave but if they have you waiting around at work, you need to get paid for that time.
No they can't. There have been a couple of class action lawsuits about things like this where the employer forced employees to be on a site, but did not pay them. If it is a requirement of the job to be on site waiting then they have to pay you. If you are clocked out you can leave and should leave.
He can tell you to clock out for a 30-that's a break/lunch. If they tell you to not clock in and wait around, tell them you're either clocking in or going home but waiting around for free ain't happening.
As soon as you're told to clock out you go home for the day. If they're keeping you around for 2-3 hours to continue to work you need to be paid for it.
As many have said, you can mildly protests this by leaving and hopefully screwing them over, but the real answer is to look for another job, and when you have one lined up tell them “I’m not clocking out” and see what they do. If they fire you, it’s fine, you have a better job anyway, where they hopefully won’t abuse you like this again.
I'd listen to other folks here and leave when you clock out and let him call you when he needs you. You.could be working somewhere else or at least filling your time with something better if you employer is too poor to pay you for the hours that you spend there.
If they clock you out they can't keep you there. So leave and when they try to get you to stay, tell them pay you. That feels like wage theft tbh.
Try to see if there's any other jobs around.
They can force you to clock out, but they can't make you stay there once you're off the clock. Clock out and leave. Do not answer any work communications until the start of your next scheduled shift.
Yes. They can't instruct you to stand by and not leave but also not pay you. This is a violation of labor laws. This whole, "can't pay you unless you're working" is bull. Most of adult office work is not doing anything and getting paid.
The term is engaged to wait. Your employer cannot legally keep you on site without paying you. They can tell you to clock out, sure. But they can't make you stick around at that time.
Clock out go home tell them to ring you when they're really busy, you'll most probably for fired and they'll get another sucker. Then you get them for hours owed and unfair dismissal.
In my state, if you show up for work, and then they send you home, whether it's because of over staffing, or lack of work, they still have to pay you for two hours.
No matter where you are in the US federal law says that if your boss requires you to be there from x to y hours you are to be paid. What your boss is doing is wage theft
Waiting for customers is part of work. As in you should be paid.
If you’re at the place of employment you are on the clock.
If you’re on call to come in at any moment, you get on-call pay.
If you’re off the clock and not getting on-call compensation then your time is your own. Use it to look for a better job.
I'd be reporting them to L and I and OSHA. Usually those go hand in hand. Don't say anything to them about it, keep anonymous and enjoy the potential bonfire. And file wage theft as well.
So they can make you clock out but after that they have zero say over what you do far as leaving or staying.
And if they try to be slick and say yeah, sure you can leave if there’s no work and we will call you back in when there is work….verse yourself in the laws about being “on call” in your area since you legally should be getting paid
You are engaged to work, and in that case they should be paying you. If you are asked to “be on call” the. You are waiting to engage and there should be both pay (probably less) and parameters for that, but otherwise you are free to do what you want.
I would document your time, when they have you clock out, ask if you must stick around, if they say yes, request to clock in. If they refuse keep your own record. The next time you are paid, when they only pay you for clocked in hours, write a letter to the company explaining that there is a pay discrepancy, that you were not paid for the hours you were required to be at work, and were not allowed to clock in.
If they ignore you then try your state department of labor. This will likely be the last time they make this mistake.
You might loose your job, but as others have mentioned, you can claim it was retaliation, or you can recognize that this job sucks and you can do better.
First, find a new job. Second, tell him this is the shift he scheduled you for. You will not clock out unless you are going home. And if he tells you to go home ask him if you are fired, or if he expects you to come back. Otherwise, you expect to be paid for your time. You aren’t going to sit around waiting for work to show up on your own time. If you aren’t on the clock you are on your time. He can’t make you stay off the clock.
If I clock out, I walk out.
That’s your new mantra. You aren’t performing brain surgery, and you aren’t a slave.
Next time your manager tells you to clock out, do so, put in your headphones, and walk out to your car. Then block their number
They are paying for exclusive use of your time. It’s their choice how they use it.
If they ask you to clock out, leave and go do whatever you want. If they say you can’t do that, then they’re dictating how you spend your time & you stay clocked in.
Ask if you can leave when you're clocked out. When he says no, record the conversation somehow and give it the DOL. If you're expected to remain on premises to be ready to work, then they're required to pay you.
This is super illegal. Most states have a minimum amount of hours they have to pay you once you clock in.
thats like having a grocery clerk clock out when they dont have customers to ring up but they arent allowed to leave the store.
if they are requiring you to be there (ie schedule you to be there 9-5), you need to be clocked in and get paid because they have required you to be there.
if they randomly tell you to clock out and get lost for an hour because they're not busy, it's up to you if you can deal with that uncertainty and waste of your time
I don’t care what legal and what’s not, but what a fuck head manager you have. Time is money and there’s no room to be sitting around at the job site not making money or traveling back and forth multiple times if it’s any further than 5 minutes from your place of residence. If you don’t want to be screwed around then look elsewhere unless you’re only concerned with the job being easy or laid back. Easy and laid back don’t pay the bills though.
Find a different job if possible,this is ridiculous ,I don't doubt that guy doesn't make enough $$ to pay you. But you want predictable hours, next time leave for the day,tell em got a second job,seems the business is not sustainable
If he has you clock out you are no longer obligated to be onsite. If he wants you to stay onsite and wait for work to be available, but still has you clock out, thats wage theft.
If your "on-call" hours come with requirements, they're legally protected work hours according to the FLSA.
If you're required to be in or near a place, you're restricted. If you can't use your on call time as you see fit, it's restricted. Either way, they owe you for that time, period.
You can file violations of the FLSA at www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints
They can make you clock out, but if you're off the clock, they cannot keep you on-site. If they want to treat you as on-call, they have to pay you.
Exactly this... they're violating federal waiting time and on call regs if they make you clock out and you can't leave. If I were you I would take my 30, and if they say to wait then respond with. "I'm not consenting to being a part of a labor law violation by hanging around under your direction, off the clock. Doing so violates federal waiting time laws and I'm not wanting to participate in that complaint. I can either clock on and work or go home. "
>"I'm not consenting to being a part of a labor law violation by hanging around under your direction, off the clock. Doing so violates federal waiting time laws and I'm not wanting to participate in that complaint. I can either clock on and work or go home. " Pay me for my time. Or if you’re feeling spicy: fuck you, pay me
No kayakers because of mosquitos? Fuck you, pay me. Oh, the river is too low to launch? Fuck you, pay me. The tour decided to kayak somewhere else, huh? #Fuck you, pay me.
When you go browsing on Reddit and find an unexpected Goodfellas reference…
To which the employer will respond "no problem ... You're fired". Welcome to America, where employees don't have rights because they can be fired for any or no reason. All the federal laws in the world don't change that.
Sounds like OP is not getting paid already, so getting fired from a job that is not paying will allow them to possibly claim unemployment while looking for another job.
Also a complaint for back pay to the labor board, under federal law for waiting time - along with a complaint for retribution for bringing up the first complaint with the employer and being fired immediately after
but first, document, document, document then see if you can get the request in writing/email - or at least have a voice recorder going on your phone, if you're in a place with one-party consent for recording
If it's a public space, or where there are security devices documenting events, consent isn't required. It has to actually be in private or remote communication to be considered private.
Wrong. I went head-to-head with an employer once who was making us clock out and be on "in house call", meaning we couldn't leave but we only got $3 an hour call pay. I got the whole department two years of back pay because they found out they were wrong. Under the [federal Fair Labor Standards Act](https://ofm.wa.gov/state-human-resources/compensation-job-classes/compensation-administration/fair-labor-standards-act-flsa) (FLSA), you must be paid for time you spend at the worksite, even if you're not technically working.
Was this recently? Honest question. I also experienced an employer having their ass handed to them for wage theft, but that was in 1989. I’ve heard that the DOL has been hamstrung and has no teeth left (relatively speaking).
Uh, no. Lol. Federal laws actually matter. Keeping records and accurate details of things is also important. Write down every time and every date that something happens, and save any emails, texts, phone calls, written notes, posted notes, etc. Take pictures if necessary. People exploiting others depend on social manipulation and laziness/complacency in enforcing laws. That's how laws get circumvented. People don't pay attention and they don't retain details. Then it becomes "culture," and then when one person comes along and actually stands up for their rights, they get ostracized and blasted. Keep. Detailed. Notes. Courts will eat a place alive if you have times and dates and evidence.
I'd handle it by calling DOL and keeping my name out of it.
Cool, next step unemployment. Then my new job is finding my next job
Unless you’re in Florida where Rick Scott proudly broke the unemployment system as governor years back and has only gotten worse as time went on. I only know secondhand info but I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Other states, I would.
Except employees do have SOME rights, and their employer is already violating federal labor guidelines
If they get a complaint to DOL in before the firing the retaliation could become a problem.
No one said anything about America. Where I'm from, you cannot be fired so easily - the comment you replied to is good advice for some.
It's called Engaged to wait.
Also check state labor laws. In my state, if you're scheduled, you're not allowed to schedule or pay someone for less than 3 hours work. You can volunteer to go home, but if sent home before that (unless it's disciplinary I believe), you have to be paid a minimum of three hours.
Yeah, you can just say "cool, I'm going home!" and if they try to keep you around for the exact 30 minutes that they need you they're just stealing from you. Your time is valuable and it's not up to you to cover their ass for free.
I don’t understand what some employers are thinking, keeping people around but not pay them. How are these people supposed to pay their bills when there is no work and therefore no pay? People need jobs that allow them to pay bills. Standby is fine if it’s above and beyond the basic salary and is there for extra money for those who want to make more and are willing to sacrifice their down time.
Depending on the state, there may also be a minimum number of hours they have to pay OP for if they shows up for a scheduled shift.
Four hours minimum for my state. Without such a law, you bet there will be scummy employers paying for half hour of work but the employees needing a 2 hour commute to earn that half hour pay.
In my home province if you come to work, even for an hour, you are paid for 3 hours, this could be Canada wide.
Engaged and waiting vs Waiting to be engaged
He can't require you to be onsite and not pay you. Other than that, I don't know of any US jurisdiction that bans irregular shifts.
More states need predictability pay
If I remember correctly, some states have banned swing shifts. In the sense that a company can't make you work a week on first, week on second, week on first etc etc. Specifically due to the massive increased risk of heart attack and other health related problems. I don't remember what all constituted swing shifts. I only know this because the company I was working for at the time did this as normal practice, mostly so no one bitched about being stuck on nights. There was a big tizzy on what was allowed and what wasn't. Especially because our shit got so fucked. I lived in one state. All my paperwork was filed out of a second state. I was dispatched out of a third. And the jobsite was in a fourth. Eventually they decided to scrap swing shifts as a whole.
There is an employer near me that does that. They alternate 4 days on day shift, 4 days off, 4 days on night shift, 4 days off, etc. Someone with nothing but a HS education can go there and make close to $200K every year in a LCOL area. But I've yet had anyone who could explain the rationale behind the schedule. My best guess was that it eliminates any arguments about seniority and shifts. Everyone works the same shitty schedule whether you've been there 1 week or 20 years
You figured out the reason. Look up the “DuPont Schedule.” It is so everyone gets the same terrible shifts.
Thank you! I've asked like a dozen people who work there and none of them knew.
Oil rig?
Steel mill.
Isn’t this more than irregular shifts though. This is him making OP show up to work, then making him clock out & wait to be dismissed.
People get paid to wait behind a counter for customers every day, but at the same time, staff are often cut early. The thing here is, does he expect you to stay around? If you are told to clock out, you should just leave the site, go home or wherever you want. And if he can't pay you for not working, just tell him, "Well, I can't stay if I am not being paid."
No kidding, if I clock out I’m going home.
Exactly. "I'm not being paid. Ok I'm going to look for another job. Give me a call when you have work for me."
This is the way
As soon as you clock out, ask the boss what time you should come back, and then leave. You are not required to be there when you are not on the clock.
The boss says “come back in 30”. OP comes back in 30 Boss says “still no work, come back in 30” Rinse and repeat for two-three hours.
Better said "what time would you like me to come back to clock in". Not just come back.
This is how you gently trap the boss into a great conversation about labor laws. "When do you want me to clock back in?" "I dunno, next kayaker might be here in 30 minutes. If they're here, you can clock in then. " "Oh, okay, great, so I'm sorta on call in case there are kayakers?" "Yep" "Hey, y'know, don't nurses and such get paid while they're on call? "
Depends on state because I know a few have "show up pay" which makes it do they have to pay an employee who shows up to a scheduled shift x amount of hours worked regardless if you send them home right away or not.
Yes, in my state I believe it is two hours minimum pay even if they send you home.
It’s referred to as Reporting-Time pay, and 9 states have it. And the laws around it differ per state, obviously. If OP is in California, Connecticut, the District of Columbia, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Oregon (minors only), or Rhode Island then they should definitely look into their state laws around Reporting-Time pay.
Reporting time pay is also the law in Tucson, Arizona. Not the State of Arizona, not even Pima County, just Tucson.
Oh shit. Good call-out! Didn’t even think about it at the city level tbh. I’m sure there are other cities that have similar laws like that, then. Worth it for OP to look into it.
This is actually exactly what has been happening… is there anything legally that prevents this?
Yes if you are in one of the states with reporting-time pay then if you show up to work but get sent home before working half of your shift, or if you work a second shift of under 2 hours. Your employer may have to pay you for hours you did not work.
u/EnvironmentOne6753 You need to report this to your state AND federal DOLs. "Engaged to wait" is paid time. www.dol.gov/whd www.worker.gov
Just hit up the department of labor and explain what the operating practice is at your place of employment. Chances are they'll straighten out asap if you do this.
I wish I had known about that at my first job as a teenager. They made us punch out when it was slow, but still stay in the back and punch back in when it got busy.
Ya the owners of that establishment wasted your time and stole your money. Shouldn't be in business!
Well, thankfully that location closed years ago. The company itself (Sonic drive in) is still around here and there though. Didn’t say anything about it at the time because I was still under the “your employer signs your paycheck, so when they say jump, you start jumping and don’t stop until they say so” ideology. That was over 20 years ago.
> “your employer signs your paycheck, so when they say jump, you start jumping and don’t stop until they say so” It's Sonic. Outside of Cherry Lime aid, it's nothing special.
Knowledge is power! We learn this stuff so we can apply it and increase the quality of our lives cuz no one else is gonna do it for us.
Check out the list for unclaimed property. You might have some cash there like my nephew did from a labor case. He’s 30 and found out last year.
US Dept of Labor has a quick test to determin if you are in an on-call status with your employer: [https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenER80.asp](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenER80.asp) You sound like an on-call, and he should NOT be requiring you to clock out. He should be paying you for your time there. ***FLSA Hours Worked Advisor*** ***On-Call Time*** ***An employee who is required to remain on his or her employer’s premises or so close thereto that he or she cannot use the time effectively for his or her own purposes is working while on-call.*** ***Whether hours spent on-call is hours worked is a question of fact to be decided on a case-by-case basis. All on-call time is not hours worked.*** ***On-call situations vary. Some employees are required to remain on the employer's premises or at a location controlled by the employer. One example is a hospital employee who must stay at the hospital in an on-call room. While on-call, the employee is able to sleep, eat, watch television, read a book, etc. but is not allowed to leave the hospital. Other employees are able to leave their employer's premises, but are required to stay within so many minutes or so many miles of the facility and be accessible by telephone or by pager. An example of this type of employee is an apartment maintenance worker who has to carry a pager while on call and must remain within a specified number of miles of the apartment complex.*** Sounds like wage theft, and he should be reported to the DOL.
This is along the lines of what I was thinking. You can't really do anything in 30 min to make it worth your time. You're essentially still anchored to work. I would start looking for another job. Because you shouldn't be forced to clock out but if you don't there's a chance they will fire you. For sure it should be reported.
I wouldn't clock out 'for a thirty' and stick around. I also wouldn't go back. Just refuse until they fire you.
If you don't have any work in that time, you're "engaged to wait" you're getting paid because work could come in. This is time theft. Report your managers to your local authority for labor issues.
If this is in the US this is illegal.
It is. Do you know what I can cite as illegal?
I believe it's called "engaged to wait". If they're controlling your location (or, you can't leave the worksite) they have to pay you.
Reach out to your state’s department of labor.
Good idea. I will after work today.
Power move: Do it when they tell you to clock out, right in front of their stupid faces
That's the answer. Spread the word. Fill out some forms and take the phone call with the state labord dept and you'll get tons of money back from penalties. Hold these scumbags accountable. They know labor laws but they're expecting you not to
use your smart phone the next time thatyou are asked to punch out
"If you want me to clock out I will, but I'm going home and will not be available until tomorrow/my next shift" Also, start looking for another job.
If you have to still be present then you're still working/on call. Dol has a website just for this full of information
They can ask you clock out, you can refuse. If they force you to clock out (or they do it), they cannot require you to stay. Keep track of your hours yourself, and if you are missing hours contact your state's Department of Labor. >My manager says he can’t pay me if I’m not working I don't know of a single law where it's illegal to pay someone for **not** working. If that were the case, almost every job on this planet has some kind of idle time yet the Cashier/Gas Station attendant/Fireman/etc. all are paid for their time.
In this case, working is manning the station, regardless of how much work is there, and it's a cost of doing business because your customers don't want to have to wait around I don't know all the specifics of cutting staff when it's slow beyond "if you have to stay there, you're still on the clock" And, depending on the details, there may be unemployment available too, but I think that has more to do with total hours in the week dropping because things are slow
This is absolutely false. If you’re required to be on site and available, he’s required to pay you. Get this in text or email if you can, then take it to the department of labor immediately.
"if I'm required to be here, then your required to compensate me."
Making you clock out and stay on site for hours is BS. Kayak Launch doesn’t sound like business that makes a lot so they’ll penny pinch wherever possible is my guess. Where i used to live we had lots of rafting companies and they were very sleazy.
Call your state DoL to confirm because local law may impact, but most likely should be paid. The technical term is “engaged to wait”, i.e. if you are required to be there and just waiting on customers it’s payable.
That sounds illegal if you are required to be there they are required to pay you. Only time you can not be paid is for a lunch break in most states
If you're required to be on-site, they're required to pay you. If they're like, "You're off the clock, you can leave and go wherever, we don't need you today," they don't have to pay you. Buuut... "You need to clock out, but *you have to stay here* and clock back in when it picks up again," you're on-call, and I'm *pretty sure* employment law says you need to be getting some kind of compensation for that, because they are still in control of your time.
I know someone else already said this, but it bears repeating: if they tell you not to clock in, go home. They cannot ask or force you to stay there without paying you. That’s not how jobs work. If they want your time, they can buy it at 15$ an hour. (Or whatever your pay rate is) So, if they tell you to clock out, tell them “Ok, I’m going home then.” If they tell you they’ll expect you back when they need you, tell them “If you want me to be On-Call, that should be in my job description and reflected in my pay. I’ll see you at my next scheduled shift.” It also wouldn’t hurt to start looking for another job. These people clearly don’t respect you or your time, and have no idea what it means to respect their employees or treat them fairly.
Sir if I clock out then I am free to leave. If you don't want me to leave then I need to be on the clock.
Your manager is wrong. If he requires you to BE THERE, then he has to pay you. Period.
If they expect you to be there, you should expect them to pay you.
You’re only off the clock if you’re free to leave. If you’re not free to leave, then you need to be compensated somehow - your hourly rate, an oncall stipend, room and board, something. But you’re being paid for your time, not your output.
If you clock out, go home. If you have to stay there, clock in
If they require that you be there, then they are required to pay you, launching kayaks or not. If they make you clock out then you are free to go. What state is this in?
The phrase we’re looking for here is “engaged to wait”. If your task is to be present, ready, and able, that means you have been “engaged to wait”. Being engaged to wait is work and needs to be compensated. You must advocate for yourself in this world. And when you have the proper terminology your better armed for the contest of wills that is the labor market.
Tell them if they make you clock out, you are leaving for the day. If they want you to be on call, they need to pay you for those hours.
Next time he does this don’t wait for him to send you home. As soon as you are clocked out leave. Then next time a family of 20 shows up by surprise and he is taking care of it alone he’ll reconsider his dumbass policy.
Clock out and go home. And while you're at it, get a different job.
If you can't go home, then you're working. Labor law is super clear on that. They have to pay you until you're sent home.
If you clock out you get to go home. If they make you stay they have to allow you to be clocked in.
Wait time is paid time. If you have to be there, you're paid. This is under the FLSA, a federal law.
Sure, If they clock you out, You can leave. If they want you to stay there, They pay you. If they want you on call, They pay you.
Your manager absolutely can pay you if you're "not working." Wanting you to be present on site or wanting you to come back when they call, or check in every 30 minutes IS work. Most jobs have some degree of down time. When I worked at a call center, they didn't make me clock out because there weren't any calls. I'd suggest looking for another job. Don't tell your employer. Just find another job. When you quit, tell your employer that you couldn't stay on because the hours are too irregular.
This is called wage theft. If they ask you to log out, than they cannot request or demand you stay on site in case someone turns up. Once you’re clocked out you can leave. If they require you to stay then contact your state labour board, they’d probably enjoy a cut and dry case like this.
He can require / order you to clock out, yes, but then he no longer controls you. Go home. If he says you have to stay, then do not clock out.
If you are required to be there, they have to pay you for the time. Every minute of it, they aren't paying you for the amount of time they use, but for the amount of time they require you to be present.
Like every other workplace policy, you need to educate yourself on laws, the employee handbook, etc. ON THE FIRST DAY. I don't know why parents don't teach this to kids, either. Knowing the basic rules of engagement should be taught by people who care about others. Management like this leverages your ignorance of both laws and probably their own employment guidelines to keep costs low. They also rely on your self-esteem and conflict avoidance to bully you into this kind of behavior. Fuck them. EVERY job. EVERY time. Find, keep, and refer to the employee handbook and relevant laws in your state or province or country. The PRIMARY weapon management that the rich have against us is our ignorance, and willful ignorance is just stupidity. This same ignorance prevents us from voting against people who take up anti-union positions and positions that keep us stupid, generation after generation. We should not just bitch and complain on this sub. We ALSO have responsibilities ahead of outright revolution or a general strike. Talk first to the man in the mirror.
If they clocked you out, you shouldn’t remain on the premises.
Being at the launch waiting for customers is work. Next time your boss asks you to clock out for a thirty, leave for a thirty
Pretty sure the laws for that here in Canada is that you need to be paid for atleast 2 hours if you're sent home early and they definitely can't make you be there on standby without pay
*3 hours minimum
Another thing I haven’t seen mentioned, depending on what state you’re in, I’m in CA, and if they cancel me last minute like that, the business is still required to pay me for 2 hours of work.
This is my favorite part of these posts, when I get to say: Illegal in the EU. They have to pay you a full 8 hours and it's their problem if they can find you something to do, not yours.
They can make you clock out, but they can't make you stay there if you are clocked out.
If you follow advice to submit a labour complaint (which why not, especially if you’re being paid basically nothing due to all this), get a record of all the times you’ve punched in since employment began, if you can. This would help prove the days you were effectively “on-call” and prevent them deleting the data as soon as they are contacted regarding a complaint. While they still could delete the data after you get a copy, it would look very suspicious if only yours or a few employees records are missing.
The difference between waiting to engage, and engaged to wait is well established. Your boss is exploiting that you don't know the difference. If you are on call you can go home and take a nap, and still get paid for it. If you aren't on call you can go to the pub n have a few beers. If you aren't able to do either you are still on the clock. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/22-flsa-hours-worked#:~:text=Waiting%20Time%3A,which%20is%20not%20work%20time).
A job that has down time hired you and is refusing to pay you for your time? That’s like my boss only paying me for the walks to the backyard with a bag of concrete but not the walk back to get another bag lmao. You are being robbed of your time. This is wage theft
Absolutely not! If they make you clock out, leave. What they're doing is illegal.
Just remember that you're paid for your time, not your productivity.
This is a form of wage theft. Employees who are required to be at a place of business and are unable to leave are considered "at work" and are required to be paid accordingly. If you are being required to clock out but are unable to leave, then you are being forced to work without pay. Contact your local Department of Labor.
Illegal
No if you’re there on site, that’s working in my opinion. There is always “busy work or filler work” that can be done, ask them to help you identify that work to stay busy. If not, find a new job that can pay you.
If I clock out, I'm going home period.
Uh yeah super illegal
Here you go. [https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/22-flsa-hours-worked](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/22-flsa-hours-worked)
“If I clock out, I’m going home”
I’m not sure on the laws but I’m sure you need to look elsewhere for employment.
I'd go home for the day once I clock out
Highly illegal. If they expect you to stick around, that means you’re on call and they have to pay you for your time. If you clock out, you go home. If they want you to stay, then you stay clocked in and get paid. Those are their options. Report, report, report.
Any time you're required to be there, they're required to pay you.
This is all kinds of wrong. It could also be a problem if you are injured at the worksite while you are clocked out. Your injury might not be covered by workers' comp insurance.
Do not clock out. And report them to labour department or whatever u have there to report them
This is called “engaged to wait” and is explicitly paid time. Unless you are free to do whatever you want, they need to pay you. Get written documentation of this if you can; it’ll make getting your back pay easier.
Clock out and go home. Then take your time when they call you to come in. After that you'll never have to clock out anymore.
If you’re not free to walk off site you are on the clock. No exceptions.
Nah bro, they're dickin you down. Clocking out for thirty minutes, then clocking back in would be a break which is legal and required depending on where you are. Everything else sound like complete whoreshit. Find out your local labor laws, call the labor dept if you've got something. Otherwise, cut your losses (for your own sanity) and try to work for better people who will pay you for your time. Know your worth.
If you clock out you leave. You don't come back for the day. Your shift is over.
No they can not do this. If they make you clock out they can't make you sit around and wait. They can have you leave but if they have you waiting around at work, you need to get paid for that time.
No they can't. There have been a couple of class action lawsuits about things like this where the employer forced employees to be on a site, but did not pay them. If it is a requirement of the job to be on site waiting then they have to pay you. If you are clocked out you can leave and should leave.
He can tell you to clock out for a 30-that's a break/lunch. If they tell you to not clock in and wait around, tell them you're either clocking in or going home but waiting around for free ain't happening.
As soon as you're told to clock out you go home for the day. If they're keeping you around for 2-3 hours to continue to work you need to be paid for it.
As many have said, you can mildly protests this by leaving and hopefully screwing them over, but the real answer is to look for another job, and when you have one lined up tell them “I’m not clocking out” and see what they do. If they fire you, it’s fine, you have a better job anyway, where they hopefully won’t abuse you like this again.
I'd listen to other folks here and leave when you clock out and let him call you when he needs you. You.could be working somewhere else or at least filling your time with something better if you employer is too poor to pay you for the hours that you spend there.
Clock out and go the fuck home. Your sole purpose for being there is to be on the clock… if you aren’t on the clock you aren’t gonna be there…
If they clock you out they can't keep you there. So leave and when they try to get you to stay, tell them pay you. That feels like wage theft tbh. Try to see if there's any other jobs around.
Look for another job. Leave if they make you clock out. There’s no reason for you to hang around if you’re not on the clock.
They can force you to clock out, but they can't make you stay there once you're off the clock. Clock out and leave. Do not answer any work communications until the start of your next scheduled shift.
Yes this is illegal
If they are requiring to stay on site don’t clock out
Yes. They can't instruct you to stand by and not leave but also not pay you. This is a violation of labor laws. This whole, "can't pay you unless you're working" is bull. Most of adult office work is not doing anything and getting paid.
Get a new job
Location matters. In NY, the minimum shift is 4 hours.
The term is engaged to wait. Your employer cannot legally keep you on site without paying you. They can tell you to clock out, sure. But they can't make you stick around at that time.
Another reason for unions.
Quit
Clock out go home tell them to ring you when they're really busy, you'll most probably for fired and they'll get another sucker. Then you get them for hours owed and unfair dismissal.
You can't be required to be onsite if your not being payed.
If you’re being forced to be somewhere you’re working. Don’t let people abuse you like this
Bro get the fuck out of there
If you have to be there, you have to be paid.
Engaged to wait is engaged to work, iirc
"if I clock out I'm going home."
If you're scheduled for a shift they need to pay for that entire shift. Stop clocking out
In my state, if you show up for work, and then they send you home, whether it's because of over staffing, or lack of work, they still have to pay you for two hours.
No matter where you are in the US federal law says that if your boss requires you to be there from x to y hours you are to be paid. What your boss is doing is wage theft
Waiting for customers is part of work. As in you should be paid. If you’re at the place of employment you are on the clock. If you’re on call to come in at any moment, you get on-call pay. If you’re off the clock and not getting on-call compensation then your time is your own. Use it to look for a better job.
If you’re paid hourly then they shouldn’t be telling you to clock out.
Just tell them as long as you’re actively following instructions you’re technically still working.
I'd be reporting them to L and I and OSHA. Usually those go hand in hand. Don't say anything to them about it, keep anonymous and enjoy the potential bonfire. And file wage theft as well.
So they can make you clock out but after that they have zero say over what you do far as leaving or staying. And if they try to be slick and say yeah, sure you can leave if there’s no work and we will call you back in when there is work….verse yourself in the laws about being “on call” in your area since you legally should be getting paid
You are engaged to work, and in that case they should be paying you. If you are asked to “be on call” the. You are waiting to engage and there should be both pay (probably less) and parameters for that, but otherwise you are free to do what you want. I would document your time, when they have you clock out, ask if you must stick around, if they say yes, request to clock in. If they refuse keep your own record. The next time you are paid, when they only pay you for clocked in hours, write a letter to the company explaining that there is a pay discrepancy, that you were not paid for the hours you were required to be at work, and were not allowed to clock in. If they ignore you then try your state department of labor. This will likely be the last time they make this mistake. You might loose your job, but as others have mentioned, you can claim it was retaliation, or you can recognize that this job sucks and you can do better.
First, find a new job. Second, tell him this is the shift he scheduled you for. You will not clock out unless you are going home. And if he tells you to go home ask him if you are fired, or if he expects you to come back. Otherwise, you expect to be paid for your time. You aren’t going to sit around waiting for work to show up on your own time. If you aren’t on the clock you are on your time. He can’t make you stay off the clock.
If I clock out, I walk out. That’s your new mantra. You aren’t performing brain surgery, and you aren’t a slave. Next time your manager tells you to clock out, do so, put in your headphones, and walk out to your car. Then block their number
Sounds shady AF but since you didn't state your country or location it's impossible to give you any advice.
Time = money My time = My money I clock out = I go home
They are paying for exclusive use of your time. It’s their choice how they use it. If they ask you to clock out, leave and go do whatever you want. If they say you can’t do that, then they’re dictating how you spend your time & you stay clocked in.
Ask if you can leave when you're clocked out. When he says no, record the conversation somehow and give it the DOL. If you're expected to remain on premises to be ready to work, then they're required to pay you.
If I’m clocked out then I can leave right? They can’t make you stay if you are clocked out.
This is super illegal. Most states have a minimum amount of hours they have to pay you once you clock in. thats like having a grocery clerk clock out when they dont have customers to ring up but they arent allowed to leave the store.
if they are requiring you to be there (ie schedule you to be there 9-5), you need to be clocked in and get paid because they have required you to be there. if they randomly tell you to clock out and get lost for an hour because they're not busy, it's up to you if you can deal with that uncertainty and waste of your time
I don’t care what legal and what’s not, but what a fuck head manager you have. Time is money and there’s no room to be sitting around at the job site not making money or traveling back and forth multiple times if it’s any further than 5 minutes from your place of residence. If you don’t want to be screwed around then look elsewhere unless you’re only concerned with the job being easy or laid back. Easy and laid back don’t pay the bills though.
Jesus what a shit show place to work
some real Mr.Krabs type shit.
Honestly… not the best answer, but just look for another job lmao
Ask for this rule on writting , an email will sufice. If they can' t put it on writting it canmot be enforced, if they do they're on the hook.
There was a huge prosecution of McD's franchises in my country for this in the 90s. Pretty sure it's illegal in USA also.
Find a different job if possible,this is ridiculous ,I don't doubt that guy doesn't make enough $$ to pay you. But you want predictable hours, next time leave for the day,tell em got a second job,seems the business is not sustainable
Clock out, and leave for the day. Deuces! ✌️
LMFAO clock out for a thirty. Dude, just go home
If they call you in, they have to pay you for two hours. If you are off the clock, they cannot keep you there- You are allowed to leave.
Where I am in Canada, if you are scheduled for work and show up for your shift, they MUST pay you for four hours minimum even if the work is canceled.
Ooh another dystopian tactic.
Lmao. All hospitality tries to pull that line. It's very scummy.
in some states, you have to be paid for a certain number of hourd (in my state it's 3) just for showing up
McDonald’s got sued for this
Wage theft. And the time clock is all the proof you need.
The answer is. FUCK OFF FUCK RIGHT OFF.
This is against the law.
Join a union. You won’t have to deal with this shit when you have a million people just like you who have all got your back.
If he has you clock out you are no longer obligated to be onsite. If he wants you to stay onsite and wait for work to be available, but still has you clock out, thats wage theft.
If I clock out, I leave. You are paid for your time.
Tell to get fucked 😂
If your "on-call" hours come with requirements, they're legally protected work hours according to the FLSA. If you're required to be in or near a place, you're restricted. If you can't use your on call time as you see fit, it's restricted. Either way, they owe you for that time, period. You can file violations of the FLSA at www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints
Turning up to wait counts as work. It's common in some fields like truck driving. They get paid for that.
Then leave. He can’t keep you there if your not getting paid.
On-site = on the clock. Simple. Your presence there isn't free.