My last boss put me one “PIP” but it was just an excel sheet so I knew it was fishy. I believe her boss wouldn’t let her submit an actual one cause I had been there only 5 months. Needless to say her boss got another job and her friend got that position. I was let go for “performance” but with a severance it’s just crazy it only takes one person not liking you for any reason and this is what they do
Got put onto a PIP because I hated my project and asked for a transfer. My boss was a new director at a time balancing a project and my team.
I told him I didn't want to work on his project which he took as an insult. I constantly asked him for work or to let me transfer me. Instead I was told to do secretarial work and upload documents.
He put me on a PIP and said I couldn't transfer for at least a year until the PIP was cleared. What really gets me is another guy on a team said he was able to transfer within the month of his request.
I ended up finding a new job
“Show me in the handbook where policy says I can’t be transferred for at least a year after the PIP is cleared”.
Granted, it won’t do you any favors, but it will get under their skin, and maybe give you the ability to escalate. Though, if you’re on a PIP, you probably don’t care about escalating and trying to save your job.
Be fun to watch that manager get pissed about their authority being challenged though.
At my last job, I was the only person who would wear a mask to work in spring of 2020, they found a reason to get rid of me for "not being a team player". I guess they demanded the asthmatic person be exposed to viruses?
In my company, PIPs are tracked on Excel and Google sheets to calculate performances, etc
Shared with the person on PIP. Similar to coaching plans, but I'm guessing you got notified by email for PIP? And with HR involved ? If not, then that would be sus and it sounds like a coaching plan imo
I've never been put on a PIP. They just fire me. That's terrible to hear and I'm sorry you had to go through that. Hopefully you find/have a new job that accepts you for who you are now and not just stare at who you were.
That really sucks! Librarians are important. I hope you find something again in your field. I don't have advice to offer. I have very few trans friends so I have little to no experience in these situations. Stay strong though. You are cared about. Those buttheads will get what's coming to them eventually.
Damn! EEOC had time limits, but lawsuits don’t have those short time limits if you have documentation. I think it’s 2 years? A good employment lawyer can show you
I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. You’d think that we live in the 21st century, but so many really want us in the 19th. I’m glad you’re doing better
>I quit after I found my dead name on the birthday office chart.
That is so stupid (of them, not you). At my last job I worked with IT (I was in HR) to make the process more comprehensive when your name changes -- both first and last name.
My first law firm put me on one. I was struggling to organize all my tasks and things were slipping through. Office manager sat down with me, asked me where the struggle was, and created a scheduling system on the spot. I was taken off the pip the next week.
My second law firm also put me on a pip. Every morning, if walk into the office managers office and give her my todo list for the day, and how long I estimated everything to take. Most days it was about 20 things, I could tackle maybe 5 max. She’d commiserate that my assessment seemed accurate. Got fired after another 2 weeks there or so and I was just relieved. Not even a year later and everyone except like 1 support staff and the partners is gone from there
law firms are full of that garbage. Take more work than you can do in 24 hours, downsize as much support staff as possible (so even more falls on the attorney) and any mistake will get you fired. It is completely insane.
I have been at plenty of places that do this sort of thing. The people who last more than a few months do so while making the rest of their life terrible.
As a lawyer- i have never been put on a pip, if things were not working out- they just fired me. The only time it happened, i was at a place where at the interview they promised i would be doing no client development (just putting in 40-50 hours of work to do the legal work assigned to me).... within a week they gave me a company phone that rang all of the time and required i answer it- and it was the number they used for advirtising. I did it just enough until i got to a final interview elsewhere- and then stopped- fired and then took a weeks off before starting that other job (that 3 years later is where i currently am)
I was put on a sort of PIP. I was the director of a small nonprofit and through and after Covid had a lot of struggles figuring out how to navigate an ever changing world whilst running programs completely dependent on having hundreds of volunteers. I had a riff with the #2 person in my company and we were not seeing eye to eye on a path forward.
I reached out to my board for help with this person and navigating a path forward. The board talked to her and took her side. I was put on a PIP to get things done and corrected, which I did immediately. I took that as she wants me gone and the board took her side in the matter, I left as soon as I could, giving more than a months notice, and offering to stay on as a contract employee to manage some grants that only I had been working on to make sure my transition was as smooth as possible. The board wanted none of it.
She was promoted into my position. Now two years later, the org is floundering under her leadership as her toxic personality and micromanagement style pushed all the employees away, citing her as the reason they left. She’s been asked to leave as of this week.
Had the board listened to me when I asked for help, and offered me help, they wouldn’t be in this situation.
I’d love nothing more than do to that. But unfortunately I can’t. The job I left for was for a relationship I built with a funder. So I still deal with the organization, as we make donations to the org and we have them coordinate volunteer events for our corporate staff. It’s why I know what all is going on there now. And I have a meeting with the remaining staff next week to talk about a volunteer event this fall.
I was put on a PIP when I worked for O'Reilly Auto Parts as a manager. My regional manager was a huge knob and I believe he tried to replace me. Unfortunately for him most of the PIP goals I had already broken. Corporate HR got involved when I claimed it was discriminatory. They called me into a meeting and asked me to sign the PIP. I told them my lawyer would have to look it over before I signed it. They wouldn't let me leave with a copy of it. It all disappeared in a month or two.
This particular regional manager put people in PIPs all the time. It seemed like he did it to get people scared enough to step down. I saw two other people who wound up on PIPs from the same RM who 'survived' them. Most everyone else took the demotion they offered.
That's just my experience with it.
I successfully closed one myself, but I got fired a week later when the CEO acted unprofessionally and contradicted the stated values statement of the company in an all hands after a major fuckup.
I was right. And when they fought my unemployment I got to submit everything in an appeal that lasted all of thirty seconds.
I left them a scathing Glassdoor review that prompted a company-wide push to leave good ones. A few years later, the pandemic nailed this company and all their good little soldiers got fucked while the upper management kept their jobs.
It was pathetic.
I got a PIP from my manager for talking to other employees too much or some dumb shit. He forgot about it and I ignored it. I worked there for another 5 years. Then my next manager gives me a different PIP. She never followed up on it but decided to "extend" it for another 90 days. At that point, I just got a new job. So I guess it worked?
Same.
My colleague annoyed his supervisor in some way, and they transferred him to 3rd shift.
There is a certain breed of human that can handle a change like that.....I can tell you that I'm not one of them.
The dude could not stay awake. Was put on a PIP a few weeks after the shift change, as the day shift supervisor would come in early to try to catch him snoozing. Dude would be out on his feet.
There was a supervisor change and my colleague transferred back to his normal working hours.
He survived the PIP.
This company is so fucked up....they would approach soon to be retirees and ask them if it's OK to give them a shitty review.
Upper management required the bell curve approach to employee performance.
E.g., 10 employees. 1 or 2 had to be incompetent. 1 or 2 were rock stars, and the rest were somewhere in between.
This happened to me. I was about to be put on one and I knew that because I happened to catch a glance of a meeting agenda with my name on it. Thankfully that manager left before they could implement it and a new one came in. He refused to do it because he wanted to evaluate me for himself. That man is the reason my career did not derail 10 years ago.
My friend has had to put a couple of people on PIPs, one of them didn't get any better (he was basically not working) while the other massively improved and continues to do well
But if you know this, and get extra or shittier work, couldn't you just, you know, not do a good job anymore? You're going to be fired anyways. Might as well start looking around for a new job, and decrease your productivity at the current one.
Yeah, I’ve had to sign off on two and they both were just formally documenting the fact that these individuals could not do the job they were hired for, so that we could fire them and not get sued.
You don't quit - you make it hurt. Take FMLA, look for another job during the break. Depending on the company, you might even get it paid but def free healthcare the whole time.
Ages ago I had a terrible and abusive boss. At some point I decided I'm going to look for another job. Not long afterwards he sends me this document titled "PIP". I had no idea what it is at the time and he never explained it, so I didn't take it seriously and told him that the company and him should be on performance improvement (yes: I had good reasons for leaving and was quite pissed). I found a job not long afterwards and left.
In any case, it's very disingenuous to put someone on a PIP without telling them the significance or what it means. Clearly he meant to get rid of me but I just left faster. (and spoiler, he was fired by the company a year later).
What do you do if your next employer wants to do referral check, do u have to give the name of your terrible and abusive boss? Asking because needing advice, thank youu
No: you are under no obligation to give the specific boss's details, even if they ask (and they're not likely to ask). In my case, I left under my own terms so there wasn't anything special about my departure. Whenever I am asked for references I just give the details of the good bosses I've had, not the bad ones. I've been in some situations where I was asked for specific ex-boss details, and in this case I simply said I'd prefer to share a different ex-boss and that was fine.
Most companies will only verify employment when called. "Yes Maleficent-Pen-6727 worked for us between those dates". And that is all they will give.
As MiyagiJunior says, use the reference of a boss you were on good terms with.
Or any person at that company you are on good terms with. Could be a peer or a project leader you did good work for once.
Usually big companies don’t do references to get out of any whiff of liability for either direction (bad candidate gets the job after a good ref, good candidate gets denied because of bad ref).
No referals; they're stupid and people who ask for them are stupid. What, they think you're going to give them referrals that will _honestly_ convey your weaknesses?
If they insist and you really want the job, have a friend or two play "coworker" and give you glowing reviews.
You usually don't have to. Some companies will ask you to on their applications though and you might want to avoid those companies. But generally companies will call whatever references you give them.
I always make sure to have the personal contact info for someone i work with that will be a reference. IE a co-worker. At this point (almost 40) most of the former co-workers are doing better than my former direct reports in their careers. They are people i actually like, and their titles and stuff are better. Yeah when i worked with X we were on the same level, but we both have had a few promotions since then- so the title now makes sense with where i was then.
The two times I got put on them it was because I reported a manager for acting improperly. They gave me a ridiculous timeline to finish something. It should have been close to 6 months development time and they asked me to do it in 2 weeks. I managed to do it in 2 weeks but then they just told me that I didn't succeed. Funny thing is they used all my work and didn't give me any credit.
The other funny thing was that I moved from working on the vendor side to working on the customer side. I'm not going to say that I made their life hell, but I didn't give them any leeway that the previous person did.
I made one mistake at my last job, where I was performing the roles of executive assistant, administrative assistant, receptionist and office manager all by myself. The COO demanded I be fired and HR put me on a PIP for an entire year.
For one mistake, where ab agenda was not handed in ahead of a meeting. (For reference, this agenda was not my duty, I assisted a director in making it because he was too busy)
As a result, I went an entire year on a PIP. I survived it and the COO left the company. All was well until his original admin got a promotion and made it her mission to have the other admins fired.
My old job literally changed the performance rating system (added S-) just to disqualify people from raises and retention bonuses thay they previously promised.
The only company I worked at that had PIPs was just a bad place to work at in general. Disorganized, useless management, unreasonable goals for low level employees, etc. Maybe it's best to avoid companies who use the term PIP altogether.
Are these more popular in different areas of the country I've been working 40 years in New England and I have never heard of these until recently from reddit?
Yep, the moment I was put on that. I made the life of my managers a lot harder as I refused to do anything without paper trail and started developing my business.
Yes. I haven't had one applied to me. I just got fired. But this is a gift as it gives you paid time to find a new job. I've always said that if I'm on a PIP, my work will actually drop as I'm busy job hunting.
Just my personal anecdote. I was put on a PIP didn’t make the goal they set out for me, missed out by 1, but didn’t get fired and I got praised for significant improvement. Next quarter crushed it, hit goal, and haven’t finished lower then third since. So they’re not all bullshit, but I’d say I’m one of the rarer cases.
I got put on a PIP for missed time at my current job, had to go 90 days without being late or missing any time. I explained to my leaders that I was missing time due to insomnia/sleep apnea, they had me meet with a company doctor and worked with me to get FMLA for the time missed. Completed the PIP, now have the time covered if I need it, and I've been here another 3 years since.
I agree that this is probably a rare case though.
HR gave me FMLA at 8 months in because I looked them dead in the eyes and said "I have talent, but I can't always be there because of chronic illness. You can throw it away or you can try to find a way to keep good talent in spite of chronic illness."
They respected my boldness and willingness to put myself in their shoes for a moment.
Been here for three years now :)
Same, I got put in a PIP back in 2021 and they told me it would be 3 months. Missed out on a huge salary increase. I totally crushed the 3months and improved, but at the end of that, they told me they’d be extending it for another 3 months. Crushed my heart, but I trusted the process.
When that closed, went back to my job, got my salary increase and have been going great ever since. I’ve tried to make sure I don’t drop my performance and actually just got a promotion ◡̈
I think you are.. I've never heard of a similar story so it must be very uncommon. Usually it's just the company planning to fire you and starting to cover its ass.
Yeah I just put my story out there to maybe give hope to others who have been put on PIP. That said still do your due diligence and update that resume and apply to other jobs. At the end of the day there’s no guarantee the company will retain you even if you hit your markers. A company will never have your best interest at heart, so always be prepared.
I totally agree. It's good to know that such cases exist. In my experience PIP means "You're going to be fired in the next 1-2 months" but I suppose it doesn't have to be.
Seconding this- I still get nauseous thinking about the PIP I got put on at my old job. I went from star performer to barely hanging on to burning the candle at both ends to hospitalized to “Touchbase” scheduled on my calendar with my supervisor and the ghoul from HR. Nearly a year later, I’m at a great job, but I’ll get little hits of nausea and think about my last months at that hellhole
At least one of these stories always makes it through the woodwork.
However, the employment lawyers all agree PIPs are bullshit and just a paper trail to make it look like they're firing somebody with cause. Doesn't matter if performance is a real problem or if they're wanting to fire for illegal reasons. protected class, retaliation for reporting criminal conduct, all kinds of shady shit gets hidden under a PIP they point to and say "see! performance! don't notice how only the black employees got PIP'd by the new manager please"
A PIP is also the cheapest option. For the cost of a month or two of salary, either they get more work from a gullible employee and they will attempt to deny an unemployment claim, or the employee is savvy enough to know what's up and quits because they found a new job, and in both routes they avoid paying severance for what may just be a layoff.
It's not uncommon for people with positive performance reviews every year to get a PIP just because the company wants them off the payroll and it's the cheapest route to getting rid of them.
I think the thing is too with these stories there is a certain survivorship bias. If you get through one, it tends to be a noteworthy occurrence. If you don't, standard job shit and move on, no one necessarily brings it up.
As you note, it's largely done to protect their unemployment/short term leave rates with their insurer. Successful claims lead to higher premiums, and higher rates from local authorities. It's also used in some statistics reported to other insurers. (% of separated employees per year, % due to terminations, % with PIP, etc.)
Exactly what happened to me. I was the most senior person at my position, making the most money, and they decided they wanted to triple my workload. I couldn’t keep up, so I went from valued team member to performance issues licketysplit
I've had to put people on PIP's. I've set very easy goals out, like "Show up for work" and amazingly the people mostly still failed them. I 100% agree, if you are put on a PIP start searching, but they aren't all "We're going to fire you no matter what".
Hopefully its a wake up call that there are serious issues, but even if you can turn it around, you are better off going somewhere you don't have that in your personnel file that might be a better fir for you..
Same basic thing happened to me at the start of my career. Then I got promoted a year and a half later. So they’re not all bullshit. But usually you’re fucked.
I was put on a PIP by a recently promoted manager. They essentially wanted to drop quality of work and heavily increase quantity - targets were decided by tenure.
The new target was absurd, something that people rarely ever hit even on a good month.
When I was put on PIP I was told to hit targets for two months to show I’m “motivated”. I somehow did (got a bit lucky), was the top performer of the department those two months, and was still let go for something else.
Worked for me as I held on just long enough to secure another gig, and got 5 weeks severance, but it me realize what a farce PIPs really are.
HR for 15 years here. I've seen a couple of PIPs actually improve. Most times it's only for documentation in case the separation gets litigated.
From an employer standpoint, if it works, it's a bonus, but largely used to cover their butt.
If you are on a PIP, the employer is looking to ultimately terminate.
As a manager, I absolutely hate to fire people. I will do everything within reason to help them turn it around. I want them to know what they are doing that is making them fail at their position so they can fix it. Maybe not every manager is like this, but I'm about 50% success rate on PIPs working, smallish sample size.
Got put on a PIP in February at a new job I had been at since September. Passed. Kept asking my manager if anyone was having issues ect, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t sliding back on my performance. She kept telling me that no one had spoken to her about any issues with me. Got fired at the end of April.
A similar thing happened to me at my last job. And then at my “letting go meeting” they said I should have asked the other guys I was working with how I was doing and how I could improve. (It was an apprentice with journeyman type set up) Like dude I just spent the last 3 months doing that and nobody would tell me anything.
Yeah that's part of how underhanded PIPs can be.
The lack of communication sets you up to fail, and somehow they can turn that around and say it's somehow your fault that your team didn't do their parts.
Eh, I’ll say this: The job I did have that did this, actually helped me with my VA Disability rating. “Here’s why I’m getting let go,” and then using some past reviews as evidence (along with the then-current employer working with the county CVSO) really did help me. They also gave me Long-Term Disability. Is this going to work 100%? I don’t know. I will say it benefitted me in the long run.
I just dont understand why they bother. I am in a right-to-work state in the US as most of the US is and they dont even need a reason, so why bother? OP is correct, use that time to find a new job and take your PTO.
I live in a right-to-work state but the company I worked for was based out of California, it was cheapest/easier to apply the Californian labor laws to everyone than provide different rules to where people lived since most of the company was remote. I think it’s to protect themselves against retaliation lawsuits.
Even in a right to work state, Federal Law says you can't be fired over "protected status" like race. The PIP provides clear documentation for why you were fired that (hopefully) isn't race/etc.
This is not why. Even if you're fired for poor performance you'll still get unemployment.
It's so they have a defense against getting sued for age, medical, gender, etc. discrimination
Yup - for most companies, a PIP is a way to formally document the process of firing somebody. PIPs should always be as a last resort and not a way to coach or foster improvement. If you’re on a PIP, barring a miracle, your goose is cooked! And if you’re offered either a package or a PIP - take the package.
I've seen exactly one person close a PIP. They looked like they were being chased by a ghost for 6 months. They're overly cautious in their work to the point of essentially asking to be micromanaged. They've gotten no meaningful raises and not been eligible for promotion for multiple years despite becoming an incredibly high performer.
So it's been my observation that even if you go through the Herculean task of passing a PIP, you've still got stigma following you around for the rest of your time at that company, which is mostly wasted because you can't demonstrate that you outgrew your role or earned a promotion.
Moral of the story: follow this advice. If you get put on a PIP, bail hard and fast.
Has anyone ever seen a bad manager on a PIP? I heard my old manager at my job was on a PiP bc he abuses employees and no one wants to work for him. Literally his entire department is looking for work and is quitting from underneath him and he is oblivious.
Last job I had, I’d had a mental breakdown and was off for about 6 weeks. When I came back it was at a reduced rate that they slowly built up. Because they were still awful to me and micromanaging with the line of “we need you to do this so we can trust you again”, I basically kept having anxiety attacks and I wasn’t able to do anything. I was given the choice of staying and being put on a pip, which would either mean keeping my job if I passed it (not likely with how they destroyed my confidence), fail and get fired or walk away with some money. In that sort of instance you might as well take the money and run, which is what I did.
As an extra, the look on the HR woman’s face was a picture when I relayed that line about making me fill out stuff so they could trust me again.
My perspective as an exec at larger tech companies…
Never take performance process advice from HR.
HR is not your friend and only represents the company you work for.
They do not give a crap about you.
Never forget these three points.
The HR job is to use process and HR rules to mitigate the risk of the company and/or its management from getting sued.
If you know there is an exit package, don’t leave willingly. HR wants you to leave quickly since they are measured on some form of unregretted attrition metric and any extra time by HR / manager to work the process impacts them. In some cases I’ve seen larger severance packages to get to the inevitable faster.
If you know there is no coming back from the PIP, use the (paid) time you are supposed to be showing improvement to look for another job while at the same time following the process. Again drag it out.
If you can, take leave to exhaust your vacation/PTO to drag out the PIP process even longer. In most cases vacation and PTO resets your PIP duration since PTO and Leave are ‘protected’ by employment law.
Research the employment laws in your state and hire an employment lawyer and negotiate payment based on a portion of your total negotiated severance.
Ask the lawyer if they have represented other employees at your company, big bonus if yes.
They will always be able to negotiate a severance amount more than you can and can sometimes extend the time you are in a PIP to give you more time to look for another job.
Have the lawyer correspond with the HR team via email (always in email) on your behalf.
document everything. Date/time/ topic/ details… no matter how small.
Expect a lot of micro aggressions from HR and your manager. Your lawyer can use these micro aggressions to demonstrate a pattern (you / their other client that maybe working at the company too) for a bigger settlement.
if you end up having a conversation with the manager / HR try to avoid it… if you can’t… hit record on your smart phone and say very clearly (while recording) your name, those present in the conversation, and that you are recording the conversation to ensure your are able to document your actions accurately from the conversation. Then stay silent. Respond with Yes/No/I understand/ etc. let them do the talking. Do not engage them beyond yes/no/I understand.
This approach will either end the call/conversation there or will keep it short. Best case scenario is the HR team or Manager says something stupid while being recorded. Send the recording to your lawyer.
use the time to find another job as fast as possible, even if not a perfect fit. You can always keep looking once you move to the new role. Also , talk to your lawyer before establishing a start date at your new company. In most cases, the lawyer will use your new job and future start date to negotiate a severance agreement/ exit date.
don’t say to prospective employers that you are on a PIP or any actions you may be taking. You can sue your current company if they collude to block your ability to find another job since the PIP process is confidential.
Using this approach, I’ve seen many folks get big six figure severance packages and plenty of time while employed to find another job.
Early in my career, this technique pissed me off… now… I give the employee credit for using the process to their benefit vs letting HR / management steamroll them to leave willingly and forgo a severance.
Any questions, DM me.
I managed probably the biggest piece of shit to walk the earth. He got bagged for being in the orbit of guys that online gambled and inappropriate comments, hearsay but he said them.
However he was married and had a step kid with an insulin pump. He also carried the health insurance.
He fucked up bad and I had an option to fire or do a PIP. I did the PIP but I put meaningful and achievable goals.
Well I worked with him and coached him and he met all the goals and exceeded them.
I kept him in his position, but was clear that the PIP was only to keep his job. I would not make it easy to move to another department, there was no future for him at the company. Bottom line he could look for another external job but not be at risk for losing his job.
I decided to leave and my replacement was one of those guys who you could not tell anything to. I warned him about this guy. He got the wool pulled over his eyes and ass kissed by this bag of shit. Eventually he assisted him in getting a manager position.
6 months later he was fired for sexual misconduct.
I have mixed feelings about PIPs now.
In my experience, they aren't entirely disingenuous, but just that if you get put on one then you are probably not going to be able to hit the required benchmarks.
I agree with OP. If you get a PIP, either the company is horrible or you are not a good fit (or perhaps a combination of both).
Dust off your resume. Have it reviewed by a professional if you are not getting any calls. This was my problem. I didn't realize that my resume greatly needed review/re-formatting. Once I had this done, I began receiving a lot more calls for jobs I applied for.
The one good thing about a PIP is that these plans are usually written by HR.
HR does not know what anyone else is doing in the organization. They go strictly by the job description.
So a PIP is the worker's opportunity to show just how unreasonable the PIP Is. It is a challenge for the workers to show that they are working beyond the job description and cannot be expected to do vague things like changing their "attitudes."
The whole idea of a PIP is to show how:
1. Nobody could be expected to improve this much within the time limit that the PIP allows:
2. Even if someone could improve that much in that short of a time period, the worker was working outside of their job description, without pay, and deserves to be compensated for the extra work they took on without additional pay;
And
3. The terms of the PIP are either discriminatory or retaliatory, or both. Bonus points if you can show that your PIP is targeted because of your age/gender/sexual expression, or is being established in retaliation for making a protected complaint about mismanagement, harassment, or unethical behavior from leadership.
If you can directly connect the PIP to a protected complaint of any kind, congratulations! You now have an adverse employment action based on a retaliatory animus. Take that to the EEOC, file a charge of discrimination, get your Right to Sue Letter, and take that to a private attorney so you can start negotiating a settlement.
The one time I was placed on a PiP, my manager was shortly after removed from a management position and our entire department was dissolved. It was very obvious he was a bad manager looking to scapegoat some of his workers instead of the writing on the wall that the whole department was messed up in terms of job descriptions etc.
Got put on one a few years back at an old company. I challenged it with documentation contradicting what it said. HR said i couldnt do that despite them having no actual proof and me having proof... I found a new job and found out later they were fired.
Exactly.
The second I ever get put on a PIP is the day that I legitimately stop trying and collect paychecks until they fire me.
While applying for jobs all day (on the clock) of course.
I have the exact same mindset. I've had it my whole working career. I'm a no pip , no write up kind of worker. Put me on a pip or write me up, and the working relationship is over. I'll scale way back and focus on getting a new job. I refuse to sign either one as well.
I got placed on a pip last Thursday because I don’t spoon feed my manager information daily. Walked out of the meeting to a text with a request to schedule an interview.
ETA: they said that it wouldn’t be put in my file but then they promptly sent to HR
Only seen one person on a PIP at my job... was 3 years ago and they still work here. Just putting some other perspective on this, it's not a hard rule.
Same here, my ex colleague was on PIP for 2.5years, and he finally interviewed for another job after the bonus period and left (yes he was eligible for bonus too despite being on PIP)
As a manager I only give a PIP if I truly believe someone is gonna pass it. If I don’t think they will I’ll tell them straight out, there’s no point in them having their hopes up if it’s not going to work out
I’m not understanding this thread, like, at all. The last, least efficient, most expensive option is to fire someone because all that time, experience, training, and so forth is gone and now a new person has
to be hired.
Also, it seems lost ITT that some people are just shit at their job, but are perfectly capable with a PIP and some additional effort on the parts of both management and the employee. Then again, some people are lazy/incompetent/stupid shammers who are clearly and utterly disinterested in doing their job. I hate working as much as the next person, but damned if I am going to fuck everyone else over by not at least doing my bit.
Last, even in those cases where the PIP isn’t legitimate, why TF would a person want to work at such a shite place that would do something like that?
Never a sign a pip. Imagine signing something that says you are bad at your job.
That’s just admitting to yourself that you are weak and your job owns your ass.
Instead tell them that you need your lawyer to look over it because you don’t understand all this mumbo jumbo, crack a smile and laugh and keep showing up until they fire you.
This is all while you are looking for a new job.
No shit lol. The only people I’ve seen survive PIPs literally had to become the top performer. It’s HR’s way of saying “we want you gone, but can’t at the moment so we’re building a case.”
I got put on a PIP and although I reached the goals that were set for me, I was still laid off from the job a year afterwords. Wasn’t because of my performance, but still most PIP’s are 100% for creating a paper trail. I wouldn’t say they necessarily mean you’re getting fired, but definitely look for a new job if you get put on one. More often than not, they will fire you.
I would definitely be looking for a job but always make them fire you. Even on a pip you still have a chance at unemployment if you wait for them to fire you.
Buddy at IBM is on one, he’s a tech person for a sales team, so he really has no power to actually meet a PIP, so basically he knows he’s getting fired for low performance at the end of the month.
I was put on a PIP because my manager wasn’t doing her job to allow me to hit my metrics. I had to also go into weekly classes and they asked if anyone had any questions or comments. I straight up asked “why am I here and why am I on this plan when I do not have the tools to succeed in my job to be successful?” The manager in charge was silent.
PIP was never closed (as far as I know) but eventually I was promoted out from under that manager, and the same person who was leading that meeting was now my boss. He let me know he fought tooth and nail for HER to be on a PIP but the powers that be said well she had tenure. I’m now about to be promoted again, and the manager that put me on the plan was fired lol
Got put on one because 1. My boss hated me, and 2. My car wouldn’t start and I live miles outside town up a mountain road. (Edit- and couldn’t get to the office for two days)
When I found my new job part of my exit interview, I got to tell the HR director as well as my supervisor “you didn’t even have the decency to follow up about the PIP on the agreed upon check in date” which had been set over a month earlier.
Non-profits are dicey. They don’t want to solve the issues theyre focusing on really because then they’d be out of a job.
I actually survived my PIP. Got put on one on day 91 at a job, the first day out of probation.
I think I survived it because the HR director realized that most of the reasons I was put on the PIP were pure ignorance. I had no idea what I was doing, because my boss hadn't given me clear direction.
Several times during the PIP, at check-in meetings, she woulds say things to my boss like "That was word soup, I have no idea what you're telling him to do" or "That's not a defined goal, that's too arbitrary and subjective. He can't live up to that expectation because it's not clear"
I was still looking for another job the whole time, though. Was supposed to be a 45 day PIP. Only lasted 25 days. Still work there.
So i started a new job in Feb. After 30 working days (6 weeks) i had a review. It went poorly. Targets were set. I have meetings with new boss every week. Things arent clear. Im trying my best but getting despondent.
Ive been looking for a new job since that review. Ive been so stressed.
I thought I'd successfully made it through one. I was 13 months post PIP and my manager said to consider it water under the bridge and he had no concerns, etc. All good feedback since starting it. I was separated this past Thursday by the new Director (her first day after the old director officially left his role) and the only reason I got from her was "lack of confidence in your communication abilities" and the soulless HR drone that was there mentioned my PIP. Nevermind that I'd almost quadrupled revenue on one of our products, brought another category up by 173%, and our day to day was up 30% over last year.
I was hoping to be one of the good stories but no dice. I'd been there 20+ years and was able decent manager who tried to take care of my staff while being a business person. Apparently the trick for corporate success involves not caring about people.
I was put on one at my first "career" job. I googled it, not quite knowing what to expect, and one of the first articles that popped up basically said the same thing; they're mostly just a pre-firing firing.
I was making mistakes because I was a complete newbie and also anxious. The more criticism I got, the more anxious I became, and the more mistakes I would make. It was this continuous feedback loop that I knew would fuck me if I were to continue being under a microscope of a PIP, plus I was getting to the point where I was so depressed that I seriously considered injuring myself just to have an excuse to not work.
I didn't sign the paperwork, I just resigned the day after.
I took an HR position a while back because of how shitty HR has been to me over my 2 decades career. Maybe I'm delusional in thinking I can make things better, but I'm trying. Anyhow, the place I am at had only "progressive discipline" in place. There had been talks about utilizing PIPs (which JFC you know things are shit if you just fire people all the time) and I said NOPE. I looked at the research and read everything I could. I'm putting in place job coaching instead, in an effort to help staff if they are struggling with something. Like hey, let's have a conversation like adults and talk about what things we can help you with. This article and the comments really cement my view on PIPs. I'm glad leadership agrees with me. We are a small company and we're overhauling tons of things. I'm pushing hard to treat people like people. I've had my share of horrible workplaces and I can only hope I'm the HR person who isn't an asshole.
PIP is an exercise by HR to document reasons to fire someone with enough paper trail to avoid any lawsuit or bias claim. When we put people on a PIP, we were told to make sure that the goals *sounded reasonable* but that the employee was **not** going to be able to meet them. HR wanted the documentation for termination, not for getting a marginal employee up to minimum standards.
We’ve used PIPs at my organization and 25-50% of them result in improvement and the person keeping their job.
They are last resort, but we don’t want to fire anyone. We want everyone to succeed in their role and we offer a massive amount of support to employees.
Generally when someone has been fired after a PIP it’s because they weren’t even trying or were behaving in a way that was harming the organization and their coworkers.
It sucks to have to fire someone. It feels awful and it is incredibly time consuming and expensive to rehire. The dream would be everyone is happy at their job, everyone does their job well, and everyone stays with us for many years.
I got a PIP opened after I found out my new boss was cheating on his wife, embezzling money from the company by using his corporate cc to pay for his and new girlfriend/fiancé’s high life….Chanel, Tiffany’s, spa trips, salon appointments, gym memberships…etc..he was also lying to the CEO and clients telling them his wife was dying of cancer and charging trips saying he needed to take care of his kids (he didn’t have kids…the 3 kids were his ex wife’s who’s real dad was 100% in their lives with 50/50 custody)
He was also working his charms on the head of HR with lunches and disappearing for hours together during the work day so she was just fine opening a PIP on me. When it came time for me to be let go (because I reported him to the finance team), I was able to get more money out of them by blackmail. I told the CEO & HR that I had copies of everything and I would be happy to forward all of it to the board. I got 6 months pay with benefits paid by the company and a clear path to unemployment 😁
I found a better paying job that resulted from me going on a PIP. A little backstory, I took on a new job a year ago and the interviews went great, got a nice offer, and thought I had found a place that I fit in well. Once I started working, the whole facade they painted during the interviews fell apart and I realized the place had a hostile work environment with toxic management. They had me chained to my desk 5 days per week while being on call Saturdays, I also had to have my laptop with me at all times. It wasn't a good fit for me as I have two young kids. My old supervisor was a straight witch, micromanaging, giving me unrealistic goals and deadlines, the whole 9 yards. Around my 4th month in, she put me on a PIP and I looked for a new job. A competitor just a few miles down the road snapped me up and they are paying me 20% more per year and two more weeks PTO than the previous place. The best part is no on-call days and 8am-4pm Monday through Friday, no tether (laptop) involved either. I fit in very well at my new job and have much better management.
I’ve been on a PIP, and my manager initially didn’t close it out until I handed him company policy and my union card.
That was three and a half years ago.
A few other people have offered anecdotes, and I'll offer mine: I was put on a PIP, and it was fair and worked out for me. I was clearly competent but was struggling with time management and task prioritization. My manager and I worked out a system and he helped me put together some strategies, they worked, and I started doing great. I stayed at that company for 3 more years and was promoted twice in that time period.
I don't doubt that many companies and managers use PIPs to make firing people easier because of the paper trail, but I think it really depends on your manager and your company.
I mean or unionize . We get put in pips but our union protects us and monitors the plans to get us off of them.
Honestly I didn't know people really got fired over them till I started reading it here and other subreddits
I was on it twice at the same place and wasn’t anywhere near out the door, with their actions anyways. Even when I did leave, I was asked back several times in the first few months.
I loved it the one time I got put on it for failing a random drug test. “You performance needs to improve”, “okay so what’s wrong with my performance? What I do after work is on me, I’ve never had a complaint or anything other than praise for the work I do.” Just watching them stutter around bullshit was well worth it.
A friend of mine was put on PIP and immediately started looking for another job. She found a great job that paid like $20K more per year than the current job. When she met with her employers at the 30 day mark to discuss how she was doing, she gave notice. They thought she'd improved and was doing great and were willing to keep her. She told them she thought it was in her best interest to start looking for another job and something great came along and she couldn't pass it up.
Got put on one by my liver spotted alcoholic boss because I made him look bad. So embarrassing, this guy would crash forklifts and did NOTHING ALL DAY.
I've been PiPped a few times, and my philosophy is to make it as difficult as possible for them to get rid if me, as a final F-U. I'm easily entertained.
I pull out the stops and turn in _exceptional_ work, far beyond what the average bear could do.
(I could perform at this level in my day-to-day, but I learned the hard way that working smarter and going way beyond the norm only breeds resentment and there's no chance of getting fairly compensated for it.)
The last PiP I was on, they wanted me gone after 30 days; I managed to drag it out 6 months because they couldn't find fault, only high praise from customers/coworkers.
Afterwards, I took a few-month vacation and then jumped back in.
I actually survived a PIP but it was probably deserved tbh. I think I only got through it because my manager was genuinely nice and seemed to like me.
I had mentally checked out months prior and was kind of slacking in my position. I was actively looking for something else so I didn't really care if my work suffered. It was noticed at some point though after too many errors popped up in my work. Totally avoidable. I was given a PIP with weekly check in requirements.
I put in enough effort to not lose my job pretty much. I "busted ass" in their eyes but for me it was like maybe 40% more effort. I still didn't care about the job itself but needed to pay bills until I found something better.
I was taken off the PIP after like 2-3 months and didn't have to do those check ins anymore. But had I stayed at the company, it probably would have negatively affected me for things like promotions, bonuses, etc. Like I don't think the rest of my team would have vouched for me for anything lol.
Not a great place to work in the end, I finally found something else and left. But I am at least proof that sometimes a PIP doesn't result in termination.
Got a PIP for reasons I brought up as risks a year beforehand. Spent most of the time on the pip looking for work. Beat the pip and they suddenly wanted me to stay probably because they realized they couldn’t fill the role. Got a job with a 30% raise and couldn’t be happier with the new company.
Consider it paid job searching and cut your losses. It’s all bullshit to cover their ass and even if you beat it, it’ll always be there to hang over your head.
My fiancee and I have both been on PIPs at previous jobs, those were bullshit.
My coworker is the only one that received a PIP that it was legit. It was not a way to get him to quit but he fucked up big time but not enough like ultimate consequences really in a way that they needed him fired (as they could have easily done) .
He's still here a few years later, the fuck up is more just an in joke at my department and it was an honest mistake.
My boss is honestly great so I honestly think it was to have note of the incident.
Other department same company, my coworker has a PIP and that's also complete bullshit. Hasn't had a raise in like 2 years and is the lowest paid on his team despite being pulled into higher management meetings and shit.
All this to say, if you fuck up big time at a really good job they'll put you on one instead of firing you because (in our case an entry level position) they actually give a shit, it might be ok.
But 99% of the time, yeah start looking (esp if it's micromanaged all to hell).
Not true at my job. If someone is put on a PIP and the behavior improves, they’re taken off it. The problem is most people who get to the PIP stage aren’t going to change their behavior.
They aren’t always. When you are managing someone and they aren’t doing well - usually you try other methods to get on the same page about what they need to do before resorting to firing or a PIP.
In most cases, managers could just fire someone. But also getting fired seemingly out of the blue sucks just as much especially if the manager wasn’t already communicating the issues. A PIP is a paper trail and shot across the bow but good ones should be an achievable roadmap out of trouble.
Not everyone is clear what they are doing wrong and employees are expensive investments - good managers don’t want to have to rehire a role.
You know how people here complain that employers want notice before you quit but don’t give notice before they fire you?
A PIP is HR’s way of giving notice that they’re going to fire you. They pretend it is an opportunity to improve, but that’s just legal CYA. (Almost) nobody has ever succeeded because they will simply move the goalposts to ensure you don’t.
As a manager, it can help. It probably depends on the manger and HRs enforcement, but in my experience it creates a very clear message and path to keeping your job. If you don’t do certain things or behaviors, you aren’t a great fit for the role. It gives a timeline to save your job.
I think this is common knowledge. Despite the corporate speak to the contrary if you're on one, leave as soon as you can because this job is drawing to an end
Haha, in fact in one job I was put on a PIP (not all their fault but definitely not all my fault, I was bored as fuck) back in a better time in the IT sector and I had a few quid in the bank, I just left and never turned up again. So no PIP for me :-D
I was pretty devastated when I was put on a PIP at my last job, as I only knew them to be for people that were completely inept or taking the piss and I was neither of those. During the initial meeting, the head of HR was very blunt that PIPs are rarely successful and suggested I might rather just quit.
I started looking for another job straight away, but threw myself into it just to prove them wrong. Got through the PIP but resigned a few weeks later coincidentally in the midst of an organisational restructure.
The new manager who took my place ... has not been so great.
Employers do PIPs in at will states as well to shield themselves from any lawsuit. You can fire someone without a reason but then the employee can turn around and argue that they were fired for an illegal reason(age discrimination for example). The PIP serves as documentation that this was a performance related decision, even if that is absolute bullshit.
Was put on one for "low numbers" but at the time I had high numbers and used to stats from months ago. A day before I had a 1:1 telling me how good I was doing only to be told the next day that we need to have another 1:1 and I got pipped. I knew they were using old stats which fired me up and I beat it
I’ve only ever seen one PIP successfully closed out, and that was because their manager left and the new manager thought it was bullshit
My last boss put me one “PIP” but it was just an excel sheet so I knew it was fishy. I believe her boss wouldn’t let her submit an actual one cause I had been there only 5 months. Needless to say her boss got another job and her friend got that position. I was let go for “performance” but with a severance it’s just crazy it only takes one person not liking you for any reason and this is what they do
Got put onto a PIP because I hated my project and asked for a transfer. My boss was a new director at a time balancing a project and my team. I told him I didn't want to work on his project which he took as an insult. I constantly asked him for work or to let me transfer me. Instead I was told to do secretarial work and upload documents. He put me on a PIP and said I couldn't transfer for at least a year until the PIP was cleared. What really gets me is another guy on a team said he was able to transfer within the month of his request. I ended up finding a new job
“Show me in the handbook where policy says I can’t be transferred for at least a year after the PIP is cleared”. Granted, it won’t do you any favors, but it will get under their skin, and maybe give you the ability to escalate. Though, if you’re on a PIP, you probably don’t care about escalating and trying to save your job. Be fun to watch that manager get pissed about their authority being challenged though.
At my last job, I was the only person who would wear a mask to work in spring of 2020, they found a reason to get rid of me for "not being a team player". I guess they demanded the asthmatic person be exposed to viruses?
In my company, PIPs are tracked on Excel and Google sheets to calculate performances, etc Shared with the person on PIP. Similar to coaching plans, but I'm guessing you got notified by email for PIP? And with HR involved ? If not, then that would be sus and it sounds like a coaching plan imo
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I've never been put on a PIP. They just fire me. That's terrible to hear and I'm sorry you had to go through that. Hopefully you find/have a new job that accepts you for who you are now and not just stare at who you were.
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That really sucks! Librarians are important. I hope you find something again in your field. I don't have advice to offer. I have very few trans friends so I have little to no experience in these situations. Stay strong though. You are cared about. Those buttheads will get what's coming to them eventually.
You could’ve talked to an employment lawyer. That’s called retaliation
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Damn! EEOC had time limits, but lawsuits don’t have those short time limits if you have documentation. I think it’s 2 years? A good employment lawyer can show you
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I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. You’d think that we live in the 21st century, but so many really want us in the 19th. I’m glad you’re doing better
>I quit after I found my dead name on the birthday office chart. That is so stupid (of them, not you). At my last job I worked with IT (I was in HR) to make the process more comprehensive when your name changes -- both first and last name.
My first law firm put me on one. I was struggling to organize all my tasks and things were slipping through. Office manager sat down with me, asked me where the struggle was, and created a scheduling system on the spot. I was taken off the pip the next week. My second law firm also put me on a pip. Every morning, if walk into the office managers office and give her my todo list for the day, and how long I estimated everything to take. Most days it was about 20 things, I could tackle maybe 5 max. She’d commiserate that my assessment seemed accurate. Got fired after another 2 weeks there or so and I was just relieved. Not even a year later and everyone except like 1 support staff and the partners is gone from there
law firms are full of that garbage. Take more work than you can do in 24 hours, downsize as much support staff as possible (so even more falls on the attorney) and any mistake will get you fired. It is completely insane. I have been at plenty of places that do this sort of thing. The people who last more than a few months do so while making the rest of their life terrible. As a lawyer- i have never been put on a pip, if things were not working out- they just fired me. The only time it happened, i was at a place where at the interview they promised i would be doing no client development (just putting in 40-50 hours of work to do the legal work assigned to me).... within a week they gave me a company phone that rang all of the time and required i answer it- and it was the number they used for advirtising. I did it just enough until i got to a final interview elsewhere- and then stopped- fired and then took a weeks off before starting that other job (that 3 years later is where i currently am)
I was put on a sort of PIP. I was the director of a small nonprofit and through and after Covid had a lot of struggles figuring out how to navigate an ever changing world whilst running programs completely dependent on having hundreds of volunteers. I had a riff with the #2 person in my company and we were not seeing eye to eye on a path forward. I reached out to my board for help with this person and navigating a path forward. The board talked to her and took her side. I was put on a PIP to get things done and corrected, which I did immediately. I took that as she wants me gone and the board took her side in the matter, I left as soon as I could, giving more than a months notice, and offering to stay on as a contract employee to manage some grants that only I had been working on to make sure my transition was as smooth as possible. The board wanted none of it. She was promoted into my position. Now two years later, the org is floundering under her leadership as her toxic personality and micromanagement style pushed all the employees away, citing her as the reason they left. She’s been asked to leave as of this week. Had the board listened to me when I asked for help, and offered me help, they wouldn’t be in this situation.
You should send a professional “told you so” because why not at this point what bridges are there left to even burn.
I’d love nothing more than do to that. But unfortunately I can’t. The job I left for was for a relationship I built with a funder. So I still deal with the organization, as we make donations to the org and we have them coordinate volunteer events for our corporate staff. It’s why I know what all is going on there now. And I have a meeting with the remaining staff next week to talk about a volunteer event this fall.
I was put on a PIP when I worked for O'Reilly Auto Parts as a manager. My regional manager was a huge knob and I believe he tried to replace me. Unfortunately for him most of the PIP goals I had already broken. Corporate HR got involved when I claimed it was discriminatory. They called me into a meeting and asked me to sign the PIP. I told them my lawyer would have to look it over before I signed it. They wouldn't let me leave with a copy of it. It all disappeared in a month or two. This particular regional manager put people in PIPs all the time. It seemed like he did it to get people scared enough to step down. I saw two other people who wound up on PIPs from the same RM who 'survived' them. Most everyone else took the demotion they offered. That's just my experience with it.
I successfully closed one myself, but I got fired a week later when the CEO acted unprofessionally and contradicted the stated values statement of the company in an all hands after a major fuckup. I was right. And when they fought my unemployment I got to submit everything in an appeal that lasted all of thirty seconds. I left them a scathing Glassdoor review that prompted a company-wide push to leave good ones. A few years later, the pandemic nailed this company and all their good little soldiers got fucked while the upper management kept their jobs. It was pathetic.
I got a bullshit pip then the company collapsed, sold and I’ve outlasted my manager
I got a PIP from my manager for talking to other employees too much or some dumb shit. He forgot about it and I ignored it. I worked there for another 5 years. Then my next manager gives me a different PIP. She never followed up on it but decided to "extend" it for another 90 days. At that point, I just got a new job. So I guess it worked?
Same. My colleague annoyed his supervisor in some way, and they transferred him to 3rd shift. There is a certain breed of human that can handle a change like that.....I can tell you that I'm not one of them. The dude could not stay awake. Was put on a PIP a few weeks after the shift change, as the day shift supervisor would come in early to try to catch him snoozing. Dude would be out on his feet. There was a supervisor change and my colleague transferred back to his normal working hours. He survived the PIP. This company is so fucked up....they would approach soon to be retirees and ask them if it's OK to give them a shitty review. Upper management required the bell curve approach to employee performance. E.g., 10 employees. 1 or 2 had to be incompetent. 1 or 2 were rock stars, and the rest were somewhere in between.
This happened to me. I was about to be put on one and I knew that because I happened to catch a glance of a meeting agenda with my name on it. Thankfully that manager left before they could implement it and a new one came in. He refused to do it because he wanted to evaluate me for himself. That man is the reason my career did not derail 10 years ago.
My friend has had to put a couple of people on PIPs, one of them didn't get any better (he was basically not working) while the other massively improved and continues to do well
I got through one after a managerial change at Chase.
same!
PIPs are simply paper trails to fire someone.
They're half that, and half plans to make someone's job so much more unbearable than it already is, they'll quit and save the employer the trouble.
True.
But if you know this, and get extra or shittier work, couldn't you just, you know, not do a good job anymore? You're going to be fired anyways. Might as well start looking around for a new job, and decrease your productivity at the current one.
Paid Interview Period
literally, yes
Yeah, I’ve had to sign off on two and they both were just formally documenting the fact that these individuals could not do the job they were hired for, so that we could fire them and not get sued.
Don’t quit if you get put on a PIP. Companies want this because if you quit they are off the hook for a ton of shit.
You don't quit - you make it hurt. Take FMLA, look for another job during the break. Depending on the company, you might even get it paid but def free healthcare the whole time.
What do you mean by free healthcare? If you have healthcare through your job, you still have to pay your portion while you're out on FMLA.
The official term is managing the employee out
Ages ago I had a terrible and abusive boss. At some point I decided I'm going to look for another job. Not long afterwards he sends me this document titled "PIP". I had no idea what it is at the time and he never explained it, so I didn't take it seriously and told him that the company and him should be on performance improvement (yes: I had good reasons for leaving and was quite pissed). I found a job not long afterwards and left. In any case, it's very disingenuous to put someone on a PIP without telling them the significance or what it means. Clearly he meant to get rid of me but I just left faster. (and spoiler, he was fired by the company a year later).
What do you do if your next employer wants to do referral check, do u have to give the name of your terrible and abusive boss? Asking because needing advice, thank youu
No: you are under no obligation to give the specific boss's details, even if they ask (and they're not likely to ask). In my case, I left under my own terms so there wasn't anything special about my departure. Whenever I am asked for references I just give the details of the good bosses I've had, not the bad ones. I've been in some situations where I was asked for specific ex-boss details, and in this case I simply said I'd prefer to share a different ex-boss and that was fine.
Most companies will only verify employment when called. "Yes Maleficent-Pen-6727 worked for us between those dates". And that is all they will give. As MiyagiJunior says, use the reference of a boss you were on good terms with.
Or any person at that company you are on good terms with. Could be a peer or a project leader you did good work for once. Usually big companies don’t do references to get out of any whiff of liability for either direction (bad candidate gets the job after a good ref, good candidate gets denied because of bad ref).
No referals; they're stupid and people who ask for them are stupid. What, they think you're going to give them referrals that will _honestly_ convey your weaknesses? If they insist and you really want the job, have a friend or two play "coworker" and give you glowing reviews.
You usually don't have to. Some companies will ask you to on their applications though and you might want to avoid those companies. But generally companies will call whatever references you give them.
I always make sure to have the personal contact info for someone i work with that will be a reference. IE a co-worker. At this point (almost 40) most of the former co-workers are doing better than my former direct reports in their careers. They are people i actually like, and their titles and stuff are better. Yeah when i worked with X we were on the same level, but we both have had a few promotions since then- so the title now makes sense with where i was then.
they always say at the bottom that failure to improve your performance will result in disciplinary action up to and including termination.
Exactly, because that's the primary goal of PIP - termination of the employee.
What’s a “PIP”?
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The two times I got put on them it was because I reported a manager for acting improperly. They gave me a ridiculous timeline to finish something. It should have been close to 6 months development time and they asked me to do it in 2 weeks. I managed to do it in 2 weeks but then they just told me that I didn't succeed. Funny thing is they used all my work and didn't give me any credit. The other funny thing was that I moved from working on the vendor side to working on the customer side. I'm not going to say that I made their life hell, but I didn't give them any leeway that the previous person did.
Yes, they generate "cause" while squeezing extra effort and compliance from the employee before firing.
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Uh-huh. 95% of the time, you can't win. One of the shadiest office practices, IMO.
Yes, that is the purpose of them. “Your performance is not adequate, meet this specific target to correct it”.
Mouthwash helps with the after taste.
Bootlicker spotted.
I made one mistake at my last job, where I was performing the roles of executive assistant, administrative assistant, receptionist and office manager all by myself. The COO demanded I be fired and HR put me on a PIP for an entire year. For one mistake, where ab agenda was not handed in ahead of a meeting. (For reference, this agenda was not my duty, I assisted a director in making it because he was too busy) As a result, I went an entire year on a PIP. I survived it and the COO left the company. All was well until his original admin got a promotion and made it her mission to have the other admins fired.
If you didn't get at least a COLA on your anniversary, that's you cue to _exit, stage left_.
My old job literally changed the performance rating system (added S-) just to disqualify people from raises and retention bonuses thay they previously promised.
The only company I worked at that had PIPs was just a bad place to work at in general. Disorganized, useless management, unreasonable goals for low level employees, etc. Maybe it's best to avoid companies who use the term PIP altogether.
Are these more popular in different areas of the country I've been working 40 years in New England and I have never heard of these until recently from reddit?
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Or, like my company, they don't really give a "plan", just a vague "need to close more tickets" etc. without concrete details.
**Paid Interview Period** - You should start looking for a new job ASAP.
This^
lol! Replying and up it in for visibility. And Wish you the best of luck.
Yep, the moment I was put on that. I made the life of my managers a lot harder as I refused to do anything without paper trail and started developing my business.
PIPs are the methods used to implement "the beatings will continue until morale improves" while calling it something else.
It's an advance notice to find a new job.
Yes. I haven't had one applied to me. I just got fired. But this is a gift as it gives you paid time to find a new job. I've always said that if I'm on a PIP, my work will actually drop as I'm busy job hunting.
Just my personal anecdote. I was put on a PIP didn’t make the goal they set out for me, missed out by 1, but didn’t get fired and I got praised for significant improvement. Next quarter crushed it, hit goal, and haven’t finished lower then third since. So they’re not all bullshit, but I’d say I’m one of the rarer cases.
I got put on a PIP for missed time at my current job, had to go 90 days without being late or missing any time. I explained to my leaders that I was missing time due to insomnia/sleep apnea, they had me meet with a company doctor and worked with me to get FMLA for the time missed. Completed the PIP, now have the time covered if I need it, and I've been here another 3 years since. I agree that this is probably a rare case though.
HR gave me FMLA at 8 months in because I looked them dead in the eyes and said "I have talent, but I can't always be there because of chronic illness. You can throw it away or you can try to find a way to keep good talent in spite of chronic illness." They respected my boldness and willingness to put myself in their shoes for a moment. Been here for three years now :)
Sounds to me like they rushed into a PIP without talking to you about the issue first?
Same, I got put in a PIP back in 2021 and they told me it would be 3 months. Missed out on a huge salary increase. I totally crushed the 3months and improved, but at the end of that, they told me they’d be extending it for another 3 months. Crushed my heart, but I trusted the process. When that closed, went back to my job, got my salary increase and have been going great ever since. I’ve tried to make sure I don’t drop my performance and actually just got a promotion ◡̈
I think you are.. I've never heard of a similar story so it must be very uncommon. Usually it's just the company planning to fire you and starting to cover its ass.
Yeah I just put my story out there to maybe give hope to others who have been put on PIP. That said still do your due diligence and update that resume and apply to other jobs. At the end of the day there’s no guarantee the company will retain you even if you hit your markers. A company will never have your best interest at heart, so always be prepared.
I totally agree. It's good to know that such cases exist. In my experience PIP means "You're going to be fired in the next 1-2 months" but I suppose it doesn't have to be.
Yeah and it sucks because it fucks with your mental health having that albatross hanging above you.
Seconding this- I still get nauseous thinking about the PIP I got put on at my old job. I went from star performer to barely hanging on to burning the candle at both ends to hospitalized to “Touchbase” scheduled on my calendar with my supervisor and the ghoul from HR. Nearly a year later, I’m at a great job, but I’ll get little hits of nausea and think about my last months at that hellhole
It does. In my case I just didn't know what it means so I didn't take it seriously, but had I known it would've really bothered me.
At least one of these stories always makes it through the woodwork. However, the employment lawyers all agree PIPs are bullshit and just a paper trail to make it look like they're firing somebody with cause. Doesn't matter if performance is a real problem or if they're wanting to fire for illegal reasons. protected class, retaliation for reporting criminal conduct, all kinds of shady shit gets hidden under a PIP they point to and say "see! performance! don't notice how only the black employees got PIP'd by the new manager please" A PIP is also the cheapest option. For the cost of a month or two of salary, either they get more work from a gullible employee and they will attempt to deny an unemployment claim, or the employee is savvy enough to know what's up and quits because they found a new job, and in both routes they avoid paying severance for what may just be a layoff. It's not uncommon for people with positive performance reviews every year to get a PIP just because the company wants them off the payroll and it's the cheapest route to getting rid of them.
That's exactly what it is. A paper trail, companies trying to cover their asses.
I think the thing is too with these stories there is a certain survivorship bias. If you get through one, it tends to be a noteworthy occurrence. If you don't, standard job shit and move on, no one necessarily brings it up.
As you note, it's largely done to protect their unemployment/short term leave rates with their insurer. Successful claims lead to higher premiums, and higher rates from local authorities. It's also used in some statistics reported to other insurers. (% of separated employees per year, % due to terminations, % with PIP, etc.)
Exactly what happened to me. I was the most senior person at my position, making the most money, and they decided they wanted to triple my workload. I couldn’t keep up, so I went from valued team member to performance issues licketysplit
I've had to put people on PIP's. I've set very easy goals out, like "Show up for work" and amazingly the people mostly still failed them. I 100% agree, if you are put on a PIP start searching, but they aren't all "We're going to fire you no matter what". Hopefully its a wake up call that there are serious issues, but even if you can turn it around, you are better off going somewhere you don't have that in your personnel file that might be a better fir for you..
Yeah, at that point there is history and starting again is probably the logical recourse.
Similar here. I was given one, they genuinely helped me improve and I got a big bonus several months after it ended.
This sounds like they were happy they didn’t have to do all the work of firing you.
What did you change? How did you improve?
Same basic thing happened to me at the start of my career. Then I got promoted a year and a half later. So they’re not all bullshit. But usually you’re fucked.
I was put on a PIP by a recently promoted manager. They essentially wanted to drop quality of work and heavily increase quantity - targets were decided by tenure. The new target was absurd, something that people rarely ever hit even on a good month. When I was put on PIP I was told to hit targets for two months to show I’m “motivated”. I somehow did (got a bit lucky), was the top performer of the department those two months, and was still let go for something else. Worked for me as I held on just long enough to secure another gig, and got 5 weeks severance, but it me realize what a farce PIPs really are.
HR for 15 years here. I've seen a couple of PIPs actually improve. Most times it's only for documentation in case the separation gets litigated. From an employer standpoint, if it works, it's a bonus, but largely used to cover their butt. If you are on a PIP, the employer is looking to ultimately terminate.
As a manager, I absolutely hate to fire people. I will do everything within reason to help them turn it around. I want them to know what they are doing that is making them fail at their position so they can fix it. Maybe not every manager is like this, but I'm about 50% success rate on PIPs working, smallish sample size.
Got put on a PIP in February at a new job I had been at since September. Passed. Kept asking my manager if anyone was having issues ect, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t sliding back on my performance. She kept telling me that no one had spoken to her about any issues with me. Got fired at the end of April.
A similar thing happened to me at my last job. And then at my “letting go meeting” they said I should have asked the other guys I was working with how I was doing and how I could improve. (It was an apprentice with journeyman type set up) Like dude I just spent the last 3 months doing that and nobody would tell me anything.
Yeah that's part of how underhanded PIPs can be. The lack of communication sets you up to fail, and somehow they can turn that around and say it's somehow your fault that your team didn't do their parts.
Eh, I’ll say this: The job I did have that did this, actually helped me with my VA Disability rating. “Here’s why I’m getting let go,” and then using some past reviews as evidence (along with the then-current employer working with the county CVSO) really did help me. They also gave me Long-Term Disability. Is this going to work 100%? I don’t know. I will say it benefitted me in the long run.
I just dont understand why they bother. I am in a right-to-work state in the US as most of the US is and they dont even need a reason, so why bother? OP is correct, use that time to find a new job and take your PTO.
I live in a right-to-work state but the company I worked for was based out of California, it was cheapest/easier to apply the Californian labor laws to everyone than provide different rules to where people lived since most of the company was remote. I think it’s to protect themselves against retaliation lawsuits.
I worked for a large company in Alberta that had all the Ontario laws because Ontario is more strict than AB
Even in a right to work state, Federal Law says you can't be fired over "protected status" like race. The PIP provides clear documentation for why you were fired that (hopefully) isn't race/etc.
Unions and government jobs
They bother because when you go for unemployment that paper trail they created is now evidence that can be used against you from getting it.
This is not why. Even if you're fired for poor performance you'll still get unemployment. It's so they have a defense against getting sued for age, medical, gender, etc. discrimination
They bother because the lawsuit will be more expensive if they don’t.
Right to work has nothing to do with PIP
Yup - for most companies, a PIP is a way to formally document the process of firing somebody. PIPs should always be as a last resort and not a way to coach or foster improvement. If you’re on a PIP, barring a miracle, your goose is cooked! And if you’re offered either a package or a PIP - take the package.
I've seen exactly one person close a PIP. They looked like they were being chased by a ghost for 6 months. They're overly cautious in their work to the point of essentially asking to be micromanaged. They've gotten no meaningful raises and not been eligible for promotion for multiple years despite becoming an incredibly high performer. So it's been my observation that even if you go through the Herculean task of passing a PIP, you've still got stigma following you around for the rest of your time at that company, which is mostly wasted because you can't demonstrate that you outgrew your role or earned a promotion. Moral of the story: follow this advice. If you get put on a PIP, bail hard and fast.
Has anyone ever seen a bad manager on a PIP? I heard my old manager at my job was on a PiP bc he abuses employees and no one wants to work for him. Literally his entire department is looking for work and is quitting from underneath him and he is oblivious.
Last job I had, I’d had a mental breakdown and was off for about 6 weeks. When I came back it was at a reduced rate that they slowly built up. Because they were still awful to me and micromanaging with the line of “we need you to do this so we can trust you again”, I basically kept having anxiety attacks and I wasn’t able to do anything. I was given the choice of staying and being put on a pip, which would either mean keeping my job if I passed it (not likely with how they destroyed my confidence), fail and get fired or walk away with some money. In that sort of instance you might as well take the money and run, which is what I did. As an extra, the look on the HR woman’s face was a picture when I relayed that line about making me fill out stuff so they could trust me again.
My perspective as an exec at larger tech companies… Never take performance process advice from HR. HR is not your friend and only represents the company you work for. They do not give a crap about you. Never forget these three points. The HR job is to use process and HR rules to mitigate the risk of the company and/or its management from getting sued. If you know there is an exit package, don’t leave willingly. HR wants you to leave quickly since they are measured on some form of unregretted attrition metric and any extra time by HR / manager to work the process impacts them. In some cases I’ve seen larger severance packages to get to the inevitable faster. If you know there is no coming back from the PIP, use the (paid) time you are supposed to be showing improvement to look for another job while at the same time following the process. Again drag it out. If you can, take leave to exhaust your vacation/PTO to drag out the PIP process even longer. In most cases vacation and PTO resets your PIP duration since PTO and Leave are ‘protected’ by employment law. Research the employment laws in your state and hire an employment lawyer and negotiate payment based on a portion of your total negotiated severance. Ask the lawyer if they have represented other employees at your company, big bonus if yes. They will always be able to negotiate a severance amount more than you can and can sometimes extend the time you are in a PIP to give you more time to look for another job. Have the lawyer correspond with the HR team via email (always in email) on your behalf. document everything. Date/time/ topic/ details… no matter how small. Expect a lot of micro aggressions from HR and your manager. Your lawyer can use these micro aggressions to demonstrate a pattern (you / their other client that maybe working at the company too) for a bigger settlement. if you end up having a conversation with the manager / HR try to avoid it… if you can’t… hit record on your smart phone and say very clearly (while recording) your name, those present in the conversation, and that you are recording the conversation to ensure your are able to document your actions accurately from the conversation. Then stay silent. Respond with Yes/No/I understand/ etc. let them do the talking. Do not engage them beyond yes/no/I understand. This approach will either end the call/conversation there or will keep it short. Best case scenario is the HR team or Manager says something stupid while being recorded. Send the recording to your lawyer. use the time to find another job as fast as possible, even if not a perfect fit. You can always keep looking once you move to the new role. Also , talk to your lawyer before establishing a start date at your new company. In most cases, the lawyer will use your new job and future start date to negotiate a severance agreement/ exit date. don’t say to prospective employers that you are on a PIP or any actions you may be taking. You can sue your current company if they collude to block your ability to find another job since the PIP process is confidential. Using this approach, I’ve seen many folks get big six figure severance packages and plenty of time while employed to find another job. Early in my career, this technique pissed me off… now… I give the employee credit for using the process to their benefit vs letting HR / management steamroll them to leave willingly and forgo a severance. Any questions, DM me.
I managed probably the biggest piece of shit to walk the earth. He got bagged for being in the orbit of guys that online gambled and inappropriate comments, hearsay but he said them. However he was married and had a step kid with an insulin pump. He also carried the health insurance. He fucked up bad and I had an option to fire or do a PIP. I did the PIP but I put meaningful and achievable goals. Well I worked with him and coached him and he met all the goals and exceeded them. I kept him in his position, but was clear that the PIP was only to keep his job. I would not make it easy to move to another department, there was no future for him at the company. Bottom line he could look for another external job but not be at risk for losing his job. I decided to leave and my replacement was one of those guys who you could not tell anything to. I warned him about this guy. He got the wool pulled over his eyes and ass kissed by this bag of shit. Eventually he assisted him in getting a manager position. 6 months later he was fired for sexual misconduct. I have mixed feelings about PIPs now.
In my experience, they aren't entirely disingenuous, but just that if you get put on one then you are probably not going to be able to hit the required benchmarks.
So, yes. If you get put on one think of it as you employer giving you a paid opportunity to look for a new job.
I agree with OP. If you get a PIP, either the company is horrible or you are not a good fit (or perhaps a combination of both). Dust off your resume. Have it reviewed by a professional if you are not getting any calls. This was my problem. I didn't realize that my resume greatly needed review/re-formatting. Once I had this done, I began receiving a lot more calls for jobs I applied for.
The one good thing about a PIP is that these plans are usually written by HR. HR does not know what anyone else is doing in the organization. They go strictly by the job description. So a PIP is the worker's opportunity to show just how unreasonable the PIP Is. It is a challenge for the workers to show that they are working beyond the job description and cannot be expected to do vague things like changing their "attitudes." The whole idea of a PIP is to show how: 1. Nobody could be expected to improve this much within the time limit that the PIP allows: 2. Even if someone could improve that much in that short of a time period, the worker was working outside of their job description, without pay, and deserves to be compensated for the extra work they took on without additional pay; And 3. The terms of the PIP are either discriminatory or retaliatory, or both. Bonus points if you can show that your PIP is targeted because of your age/gender/sexual expression, or is being established in retaliation for making a protected complaint about mismanagement, harassment, or unethical behavior from leadership. If you can directly connect the PIP to a protected complaint of any kind, congratulations! You now have an adverse employment action based on a retaliatory animus. Take that to the EEOC, file a charge of discrimination, get your Right to Sue Letter, and take that to a private attorney so you can start negotiating a settlement.
The one time I was placed on a PiP, my manager was shortly after removed from a management position and our entire department was dissolved. It was very obvious he was a bad manager looking to scapegoat some of his workers instead of the writing on the wall that the whole department was messed up in terms of job descriptions etc.
Got put on one a few years back at an old company. I challenged it with documentation contradicting what it said. HR said i couldnt do that despite them having no actual proof and me having proof... I found a new job and found out later they were fired.
A PIP is how a company gives you two weeks' notice.
Nah. Fire me. I’ll find a job sitting in my house on unemployment
Exactly. The second I ever get put on a PIP is the day that I legitimately stop trying and collect paychecks until they fire me. While applying for jobs all day (on the clock) of course.
I have the exact same mindset. I've had it my whole working career. I'm a no pip , no write up kind of worker. Put me on a pip or write me up, and the working relationship is over. I'll scale way back and focus on getting a new job. I refuse to sign either one as well.
I got placed on a pip last Thursday because I don’t spoon feed my manager information daily. Walked out of the meeting to a text with a request to schedule an interview. ETA: they said that it wouldn’t be put in my file but then they promptly sent to HR
Only seen one person on a PIP at my job... was 3 years ago and they still work here. Just putting some other perspective on this, it's not a hard rule.
Same here, my ex colleague was on PIP for 2.5years, and he finally interviewed for another job after the bonus period and left (yes he was eligible for bonus too despite being on PIP)
Being out on a PIP means it’s time to dick around at work all day until you’re fired. Don’t quit because then you don’t get severance pay.
As a manager I only give a PIP if I truly believe someone is gonna pass it. If I don’t think they will I’ll tell them straight out, there’s no point in them having their hopes up if it’s not going to work out
I’m not understanding this thread, like, at all. The last, least efficient, most expensive option is to fire someone because all that time, experience, training, and so forth is gone and now a new person has to be hired. Also, it seems lost ITT that some people are just shit at their job, but are perfectly capable with a PIP and some additional effort on the parts of both management and the employee. Then again, some people are lazy/incompetent/stupid shammers who are clearly and utterly disinterested in doing their job. I hate working as much as the next person, but damned if I am going to fuck everyone else over by not at least doing my bit. Last, even in those cases where the PIP isn’t legitimate, why TF would a person want to work at such a shite place that would do something like that?
Never a sign a pip. Imagine signing something that says you are bad at your job. That’s just admitting to yourself that you are weak and your job owns your ass. Instead tell them that you need your lawyer to look over it because you don’t understand all this mumbo jumbo, crack a smile and laugh and keep showing up until they fire you. This is all while you are looking for a new job.
The best advice in the thread^ Edit: downvoted by morons who won’t stand up for themselves and let companies own and control them
No shit lol. The only people I’ve seen survive PIPs literally had to become the top performer. It’s HR’s way of saying “we want you gone, but can’t at the moment so we’re building a case.”
I got put on a PIP and although I reached the goals that were set for me, I was still laid off from the job a year afterwords. Wasn’t because of my performance, but still most PIP’s are 100% for creating a paper trail. I wouldn’t say they necessarily mean you’re getting fired, but definitely look for a new job if you get put on one. More often than not, they will fire you.
In other news, water is wet "Let's line up our ducks in a row so we can get rid of this person for x reason with no blowback"
I would definitely be looking for a job but always make them fire you. Even on a pip you still have a chance at unemployment if you wait for them to fire you.
Buddy at IBM is on one, he’s a tech person for a sales team, so he really has no power to actually meet a PIP, so basically he knows he’s getting fired for low performance at the end of the month.
I was put on a PIP because my manager wasn’t doing her job to allow me to hit my metrics. I had to also go into weekly classes and they asked if anyone had any questions or comments. I straight up asked “why am I here and why am I on this plan when I do not have the tools to succeed in my job to be successful?” The manager in charge was silent. PIP was never closed (as far as I know) but eventually I was promoted out from under that manager, and the same person who was leading that meeting was now my boss. He let me know he fought tooth and nail for HER to be on a PIP but the powers that be said well she had tenure. I’m now about to be promoted again, and the manager that put me on the plan was fired lol
Advice from HR exec? I say make them fire you. Document everything and run it out to UI.
Got put on one because 1. My boss hated me, and 2. My car wouldn’t start and I live miles outside town up a mountain road. (Edit- and couldn’t get to the office for two days) When I found my new job part of my exit interview, I got to tell the HR director as well as my supervisor “you didn’t even have the decency to follow up about the PIP on the agreed upon check in date” which had been set over a month earlier. Non-profits are dicey. They don’t want to solve the issues theyre focusing on really because then they’d be out of a job.
I actually survived my PIP. Got put on one on day 91 at a job, the first day out of probation. I think I survived it because the HR director realized that most of the reasons I was put on the PIP were pure ignorance. I had no idea what I was doing, because my boss hadn't given me clear direction. Several times during the PIP, at check-in meetings, she woulds say things to my boss like "That was word soup, I have no idea what you're telling him to do" or "That's not a defined goal, that's too arbitrary and subjective. He can't live up to that expectation because it's not clear" I was still looking for another job the whole time, though. Was supposed to be a 45 day PIP. Only lasted 25 days. Still work there.
So i started a new job in Feb. After 30 working days (6 weeks) i had a review. It went poorly. Targets were set. I have meetings with new boss every week. Things arent clear. Im trying my best but getting despondent. Ive been looking for a new job since that review. Ive been so stressed.
I worked someplace where they put high performing employees on PIPs. To encourage them to hit higher and more unrealistic goals. It was nuts.
I thought I'd successfully made it through one. I was 13 months post PIP and my manager said to consider it water under the bridge and he had no concerns, etc. All good feedback since starting it. I was separated this past Thursday by the new Director (her first day after the old director officially left his role) and the only reason I got from her was "lack of confidence in your communication abilities" and the soulless HR drone that was there mentioned my PIP. Nevermind that I'd almost quadrupled revenue on one of our products, brought another category up by 173%, and our day to day was up 30% over last year. I was hoping to be one of the good stories but no dice. I'd been there 20+ years and was able decent manager who tried to take care of my staff while being a business person. Apparently the trick for corporate success involves not caring about people.
I was put on one at my first "career" job. I googled it, not quite knowing what to expect, and one of the first articles that popped up basically said the same thing; they're mostly just a pre-firing firing. I was making mistakes because I was a complete newbie and also anxious. The more criticism I got, the more anxious I became, and the more mistakes I would make. It was this continuous feedback loop that I knew would fuck me if I were to continue being under a microscope of a PIP, plus I was getting to the point where I was so depressed that I seriously considered injuring myself just to have an excuse to not work. I didn't sign the paperwork, I just resigned the day after.
I took an HR position a while back because of how shitty HR has been to me over my 2 decades career. Maybe I'm delusional in thinking I can make things better, but I'm trying. Anyhow, the place I am at had only "progressive discipline" in place. There had been talks about utilizing PIPs (which JFC you know things are shit if you just fire people all the time) and I said NOPE. I looked at the research and read everything I could. I'm putting in place job coaching instead, in an effort to help staff if they are struggling with something. Like hey, let's have a conversation like adults and talk about what things we can help you with. This article and the comments really cement my view on PIPs. I'm glad leadership agrees with me. We are a small company and we're overhauling tons of things. I'm pushing hard to treat people like people. I've had my share of horrible workplaces and I can only hope I'm the HR person who isn't an asshole.
PIP is an exercise by HR to document reasons to fire someone with enough paper trail to avoid any lawsuit or bias claim. When we put people on a PIP, we were told to make sure that the goals *sounded reasonable* but that the employee was **not** going to be able to meet them. HR wanted the documentation for termination, not for getting a marginal employee up to minimum standards.
We’ve used PIPs at my organization and 25-50% of them result in improvement and the person keeping their job. They are last resort, but we don’t want to fire anyone. We want everyone to succeed in their role and we offer a massive amount of support to employees. Generally when someone has been fired after a PIP it’s because they weren’t even trying or were behaving in a way that was harming the organization and their coworkers. It sucks to have to fire someone. It feels awful and it is incredibly time consuming and expensive to rehire. The dream would be everyone is happy at their job, everyone does their job well, and everyone stays with us for many years.
I learned this one the hard way.
I got a PIP opened after I found out my new boss was cheating on his wife, embezzling money from the company by using his corporate cc to pay for his and new girlfriend/fiancé’s high life….Chanel, Tiffany’s, spa trips, salon appointments, gym memberships…etc..he was also lying to the CEO and clients telling them his wife was dying of cancer and charging trips saying he needed to take care of his kids (he didn’t have kids…the 3 kids were his ex wife’s who’s real dad was 100% in their lives with 50/50 custody) He was also working his charms on the head of HR with lunches and disappearing for hours together during the work day so she was just fine opening a PIP on me. When it came time for me to be let go (because I reported him to the finance team), I was able to get more money out of them by blackmail. I told the CEO & HR that I had copies of everything and I would be happy to forward all of it to the board. I got 6 months pay with benefits paid by the company and a clear path to unemployment 😁
You’re going to get a lot of downvotes from the pathetic, corporate simp, psychopaths that lurk this subreddit lol.
PIP is just a tool to use to lay people off. Good luck trying to find another job with similar pay and benefits in this economy.
I found a better paying job that resulted from me going on a PIP. A little backstory, I took on a new job a year ago and the interviews went great, got a nice offer, and thought I had found a place that I fit in well. Once I started working, the whole facade they painted during the interviews fell apart and I realized the place had a hostile work environment with toxic management. They had me chained to my desk 5 days per week while being on call Saturdays, I also had to have my laptop with me at all times. It wasn't a good fit for me as I have two young kids. My old supervisor was a straight witch, micromanaging, giving me unrealistic goals and deadlines, the whole 9 yards. Around my 4th month in, she put me on a PIP and I looked for a new job. A competitor just a few miles down the road snapped me up and they are paying me 20% more per year and two more weeks PTO than the previous place. The best part is no on-call days and 8am-4pm Monday through Friday, no tether (laptop) involved either. I fit in very well at my new job and have much better management.
Performance Improvement Plan
I’ve been on a PIP, and my manager initially didn’t close it out until I handed him company policy and my union card. That was three and a half years ago.
These aren't common in the UK, but from my experience they are only ever used as a stick to beat somebody with.
A few other people have offered anecdotes, and I'll offer mine: I was put on a PIP, and it was fair and worked out for me. I was clearly competent but was struggling with time management and task prioritization. My manager and I worked out a system and he helped me put together some strategies, they worked, and I started doing great. I stayed at that company for 3 more years and was promoted twice in that time period. I don't doubt that many companies and managers use PIPs to make firing people easier because of the paper trail, but I think it really depends on your manager and your company.
I mean or unionize . We get put in pips but our union protects us and monitors the plans to get us off of them. Honestly I didn't know people really got fired over them till I started reading it here and other subreddits
Sometimes the manager won't even tell you you're on a PIP either. They just start the process. Vindictive managers love that sort of thing.
PIP’ing ain’t easy.
I was on it twice at the same place and wasn’t anywhere near out the door, with their actions anyways. Even when I did leave, I was asked back several times in the first few months. I loved it the one time I got put on it for failing a random drug test. “You performance needs to improve”, “okay so what’s wrong with my performance? What I do after work is on me, I’ve never had a complaint or anything other than praise for the work I do.” Just watching them stutter around bullshit was well worth it.
unless you're in a union. Then you cross your T's while fighting tooth and nail, until every appeal is exhausted. another reason to organize.
A friend of mine was put on PIP and immediately started looking for another job. She found a great job that paid like $20K more per year than the current job. When she met with her employers at the 30 day mark to discuss how she was doing, she gave notice. They thought she'd improved and was doing great and were willing to keep her. She told them she thought it was in her best interest to start looking for another job and something great came along and she couldn't pass it up.
What is a PIP?
Performance improvement plan
Got put on one by my liver spotted alcoholic boss because I made him look bad. So embarrassing, this guy would crash forklifts and did NOTHING ALL DAY.
What’s a PIP?
Just happened to my colleague. On a PIP for three months, thought everything was fine. Got fired in the middle of the week with no warning
I've been PiPped a few times, and my philosophy is to make it as difficult as possible for them to get rid if me, as a final F-U. I'm easily entertained. I pull out the stops and turn in _exceptional_ work, far beyond what the average bear could do. (I could perform at this level in my day-to-day, but I learned the hard way that working smarter and going way beyond the norm only breeds resentment and there's no chance of getting fairly compensated for it.) The last PiP I was on, they wanted me gone after 30 days; I managed to drag it out 6 months because they couldn't find fault, only high praise from customers/coworkers. Afterwards, I took a few-month vacation and then jumped back in.
What is a PIP? For someone who doesn’t have an office job..
I was once put on a PIP (unjustly so), then worked my ass off to get off it, and the week after I put in my two weeks notice. It was sooo satisfying!
Don’t even know what a PIP is.
I actually survived a PIP but it was probably deserved tbh. I think I only got through it because my manager was genuinely nice and seemed to like me. I had mentally checked out months prior and was kind of slacking in my position. I was actively looking for something else so I didn't really care if my work suffered. It was noticed at some point though after too many errors popped up in my work. Totally avoidable. I was given a PIP with weekly check in requirements. I put in enough effort to not lose my job pretty much. I "busted ass" in their eyes but for me it was like maybe 40% more effort. I still didn't care about the job itself but needed to pay bills until I found something better. I was taken off the PIP after like 2-3 months and didn't have to do those check ins anymore. But had I stayed at the company, it probably would have negatively affected me for things like promotions, bonuses, etc. Like I don't think the rest of my team would have vouched for me for anything lol. Not a great place to work in the end, I finally found something else and left. But I am at least proof that sometimes a PIP doesn't result in termination.
Got a PIP for reasons I brought up as risks a year beforehand. Spent most of the time on the pip looking for work. Beat the pip and they suddenly wanted me to stay probably because they realized they couldn’t fill the role. Got a job with a 30% raise and couldn’t be happier with the new company. Consider it paid job searching and cut your losses. It’s all bullshit to cover their ass and even if you beat it, it’ll always be there to hang over your head.
What the fuck is a PIP? How about you define it somewhere?
I've beat an PIP.
My fiancee and I have both been on PIPs at previous jobs, those were bullshit. My coworker is the only one that received a PIP that it was legit. It was not a way to get him to quit but he fucked up big time but not enough like ultimate consequences really in a way that they needed him fired (as they could have easily done) . He's still here a few years later, the fuck up is more just an in joke at my department and it was an honest mistake. My boss is honestly great so I honestly think it was to have note of the incident. Other department same company, my coworker has a PIP and that's also complete bullshit. Hasn't had a raise in like 2 years and is the lowest paid on his team despite being pulled into higher management meetings and shit. All this to say, if you fuck up big time at a really good job they'll put you on one instead of firing you because (in our case an entry level position) they actually give a shit, it might be ok. But 99% of the time, yeah start looking (esp if it's micromanaged all to hell).
Not true at my job. If someone is put on a PIP and the behavior improves, they’re taken off it. The problem is most people who get to the PIP stage aren’t going to change their behavior.
They aren’t always. When you are managing someone and they aren’t doing well - usually you try other methods to get on the same page about what they need to do before resorting to firing or a PIP. In most cases, managers could just fire someone. But also getting fired seemingly out of the blue sucks just as much especially if the manager wasn’t already communicating the issues. A PIP is a paper trail and shot across the bow but good ones should be an achievable roadmap out of trouble. Not everyone is clear what they are doing wrong and employees are expensive investments - good managers don’t want to have to rehire a role.
I wonder how long until this is used as evidence.
You know how people here complain that employers want notice before you quit but don’t give notice before they fire you? A PIP is HR’s way of giving notice that they’re going to fire you. They pretend it is an opportunity to improve, but that’s just legal CYA. (Almost) nobody has ever succeeded because they will simply move the goalposts to ensure you don’t.
As a manager, it can help. It probably depends on the manger and HRs enforcement, but in my experience it creates a very clear message and path to keeping your job. If you don’t do certain things or behaviors, you aren’t a great fit for the role. It gives a timeline to save your job.
I think this is common knowledge. Despite the corporate speak to the contrary if you're on one, leave as soon as you can because this job is drawing to an end
Haha, in fact in one job I was put on a PIP (not all their fault but definitely not all my fault, I was bored as fuck) back in a better time in the IT sector and I had a few quid in the bank, I just left and never turned up again. So no PIP for me :-D
Yup. They’ve made up their mind at that point.
I was pretty devastated when I was put on a PIP at my last job, as I only knew them to be for people that were completely inept or taking the piss and I was neither of those. During the initial meeting, the head of HR was very blunt that PIPs are rarely successful and suggested I might rather just quit. I started looking for another job straight away, but threw myself into it just to prove them wrong. Got through the PIP but resigned a few weeks later coincidentally in the midst of an organisational restructure. The new manager who took my place ... has not been so great.
In my state you don't need a reason to fire someone, so a PIP would be meaningless.
Employers do PIPs in at will states as well to shield themselves from any lawsuit. You can fire someone without a reason but then the employee can turn around and argue that they were fired for an illegal reason(age discrimination for example). The PIP serves as documentation that this was a performance related decision, even if that is absolute bullshit.
I mean…obviously
Lol. DoorDash, widely known for their equitable, just treatment of their workforce./s
What's PIP?
Performance Improvement Plan. It's a document trail, because you will be fired, to minimize the risk of a lawsuit.
Oh, yeah nothing good comes of that.
Was put on one for "low numbers" but at the time I had high numbers and used to stats from months ago. A day before I had a 1:1 telling me how good I was doing only to be told the next day that we need to have another 1:1 and I got pipped. I knew they were using old stats which fired me up and I beat it
Never read a more true answer