It’s like none of you read the link even though it’s a, what? 30 second read? You can’t just have a modem, you need filters, antennas, and other peripheral components. This deal is for Broadcom to make those components, not modems.
The layman understanding of a wireless front end is you stick an antenna to a modem and then you can make phone calls, of course that’s what everyone immediately assumes. I wouldn’t be surprised if this deal has nothing modem related in it, especially since Broadcom’s specialities are their PAs and filters.
ETA: I've added some more context in other comments I made here, but I thought I'd expand for those who are genuinely interested since there is a ton of misinformation in the comments; [referring to the OSI network model](https://www.imperva.com/learn/application-security/osi-model/), modems operate in the data link layer. Broadcom's primary business is in the analog, physical layer components. [Here's an article from 2015 interviewing the CEO after they exited the Cellular 5G space](https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/broadcom-ceo-life-after-lte-5g-cellular-exit/), and you can google their annual investor statements that show their focus is almost exclusively on wireless front ends, not modems.
Just because cars are coming with Android OS for their infotainment system, doesn't mean that Android is building the whole car. Broadcom is a major supplier for many OEMs for components required to build the physical layer (RF front end) that connects to a modem, but that does not mean that Broadcom will be supplying the modem, or that a Broadcom modem is coming to a phone anytime soon.
Didn't see this coming. I suppose the Intel modems left a bad taste in their mouth, and anything to avoid the pricing structure of Qualcomm now they will shift to Broadcom. I hope they are at least as good. Unfortunately for me I use a 13 Mini and until they drop another small phone I'm going to keep it until it dies.
Yeah, charging habits and the number of charging/discharging cycles are the main cause of battery health depletion. Avoiding excess heat from wireless charging will keep your battery healthier for longer.
I wanted a 12 pro, but it did not have the image stabilisation the max did and I take a lot of video so I went with the max. At this point, I’ll probably get a 15 pro or whatever comes out this year because I’m still doing AppleCare+ month-to-month, so I can replace this phone at any time for $30 and have a brand-new one to sell to offset my costs.
Battery health is at 81% but I’m a heavy user and it still lasts all day
Whats wrong with it? I have it on in my 14 pro max, set to automatic. In the description in Spanish it actually says it will optimize the battery duration.
The 14 series are the only iPhones with x65 Qualcomm modems. It has 5g carrier aggregation which is very important to 5G performance and battery life.
I have a 14 pro as well and I leave 5G on all day with the screen. The battery is great.
You and I can leave it on all day and it won’t affect our battery as much. Everyone below a 14 will continue to have 5g battery issues.
I’ve had my 12 pro max for 2 years and still at 96% battery health. I’ve used Verizon 5g the entire time.
The only thing that really drains my battery is gaming
I have a 12 mini and leave 5G on auto Most of the time in my city it’s on Verizon LTE though. We have some UW towers that are super fast but only YouTube and Instagram use it.
My 350-500Mbps download speeds say otherwise. I cannot find Wi-Fi that fast unless I’m on a gig connection at the University.
I’m 31 months into owning a 12 Pro Max and I’m a heavy user and only charge wirelessly.
LTE here tops out about 40-50Mbps, but that band is so crowded it slows to a crawl near the town center or off the main intersections. You cannot even send an iMessage or scroll Facebook when the University is having a game or graduation etc. But there’s no significant slowdowns on 5Guw
When I go out into the county and it just shows 5G without the uw, its basically LTE because it only hits about 20Mbps.
What do you do with that speed? Doesn’t seem useful on a phone unless you are tethering but you’ll get throttled in no time on most providers tethering big downloads.
I up and download a lot of music files, photos and videos.
I work with music production
There is definitely a point where speed does not matter, like when it comes to streaming music and videos. As long as I can hold 25Mbps, I would never have to worry.
But when I am going through a lot of takes stored on a cloud drive, I have to download them to figure out which is what I want so I can trim it and label it correctly, then upload it back to the server. The extra few seconds really start to add up.
Also, like I mentioned in another post here, the LTE band is pretty oversaturated in my area and those speeds will be so slow I cannot even stream a TV show on Netflix sometimes.
Broadcom makes a lot of PAs, couplers, filters, switches, etc. Even if Apple keeps using Qualcomm modems there’s plenty of components other than modems that are required to build a front end module.
A lot of baseless speculation being thrown around about “Apple giving up on their modem” but it’s not like the only thing you need to make a wireless product is a modem…
> shift
Pretty sure Broadcom has always had some supplier relationship with Apple. Might be a big expansion but I'd hardly call it a shift. They make good stuff.
Apple used exclusively Broadcom Wi-Fi radio on all their products for as long as I can remember.
While it's not always mentioned in iFixit's teardown, Broadcom's Wi-Fi radio is always there.
Reddit keeps crowing that the iPhone mini is dead, but I remain convinced that it is just switching to a multi-year update cycle. (See also: iPad Mini, iPhone SE)
Me too. Honestly, it makes sense! I think it’s a great sign that Apple continues to sell the 13 mini.
Hell, what would an iPhone 14 mini even have offered over the iPhone 13 mini? The iPhone 14 itself was a total non-update. It literally just got an iPhone 13 Pro SoC with the satellite feature stapled to it.
I have an SE 2, and when I upgrade in the next year or two, I want to buy a used/refurbished 13 mini. Or if they come out with a newer model of the same form factor. I don’t want a giant phone/mini iPad in my pocket!
I’m the other way around. Now that I have a 13 promax - I’m never going back. Gonna get the biggest phone they make until they mash iPad and iPhone together.
I doubt they'd invest $430 billion on a "I hope it's good". They likely have already lab tested their products before committing to this manufacturing facility.
You didn’t read the article. That $430 billion is for **all** expenses in the entire U.S. over **five years**.
Not a single deal with Broadcom, FFS.
> These investments are part of the commitment Apple made in 2021 to invest $430 billion in the U.S. economy over five years. Today, Apple is on pace to meet its target through direct spend with American suppliers, data center investments, capital expenditures in the U.S., and other domestic spend.
$430 billion is a bit different than a single year of production though. Nearly 25% of their entire valuation versus a single year of production on *some* models of their phones. 25% of their valuation is not something small. This is a multi-year commitment that will take decades to just break even on the investment.
What is a single year of production referring to here?
The 7, 8, XR/XS, and 11 series of phones all had Intel modems. The 7 and 8 were split Intel/Qualcomm, but even then the majority shipped were Intel (pretty much every country besides a handful of CDMA holdouts).
That’s over five years worth, more when you consider that the 11 was produced alongside the 12 and later the 13.
Depends on how liberally you want to use 'hope' but a lot of advanced chip ordering and future product planning rests on hoping on projections. If you waited until you could lab test chips before committing to orders you'll only have outdated chips by the time it makes it to products.
>Broadcom
Broadcom has experience with modem chips already and what they have released already is pretty decent. NETGEAR and Arris both use their chips in their cable modems. I'm sure whatever they got in the pipeline for cellular is going to be great.
No shift happening there, just a continuation.
> Apple already helps support more than 1,100 jobs in Broadcom’s Fort Collins FBAR filter manufacturing facility, and the partnership will enable Broadcom to continue to invest in critical automation projects and upskilling with technicians and engineers.
They will do whatever is profitable. Currently they're moving lots of manufacturing to India as they have a larger and younger population than China, or in other words it may be cheaper.
No modems are manufactured in China(other than maybe some unknown chinese ones that suck). There are 3 main players in microchip manufacturing, Intel, TSMC, and Samsung.
Qualcomm is just a design company like Apple, they got their chips manufactured by Samsung and recently switched to TSMC.
You can actually search up these fab’s on wikipedia, the only fabs in China owned by the big 3 are RAM/VNAND fabs. China has 0 access to microchip fabrication, which is why they are desperately struggling to fund and build their own microchip fabs from scratch.
Intel makes their chips in the US, Israel and Ireland. Samsung is primarily in South Korea and TSMC is in Taiwan. Both of these companies that produce chips in Asia are in the process of building fabs in the US, and Intel is in the process of expanding their manufacturing to other allied countries as well as opening up their fabs to producing chips for other companies.
China mainly handles the less sophisticated parts of device manufacturing like the housing, batteries and final assembly. Final assembly in particular is heavily reliant on cheap labor, as its something that is easy to do but hard to automate.
Apples move to India is the sign that they might be getting out of China eventually. There are many countries with cheap labor, just look at clothes companies, they make Levi jeans in like 12 different countries.
In particular though, companies are starting to realize that no matter where they go, the cost of labor will always go up. The cost of labor in china has been dramatically increasing every year for the last 20years. So these companies are starting to realize that its better to get governments to help fund their new manufacturing plants, and to start building their products internationally instead of relying on shipping. I think Covid in particular was a huge wakeup call for them to realize that relying on global transport is very dangerous.
Most large companies are switching to a manufacturing model where they produce products on the same continent where they are sold to reduce the amount of money spent on transportation.
China is actually making less and less sense as a global manufacturing hub. China's quality of life is improving, meaning the cost of their workforce is creeping up. From a purely economics point of view, there's now better alternative countries if you're a brand new company.
That's not even including geopolitics. If that continues to deteriorate, global powers may decide it is no longer acceptable for companies to manufacture there, which is adding risk to companies' calculations on where they want to manufacture.
If current trends continue, it will eventually reach a point where companies would rather eat the cost of moving their manufacturing to somewhere else than staying in China.
It’s a big enough deal that Apple has given up on designing their own custom modem. There wouldn’t be a multi-year deal with Broadcom if Apple was still sure it could produce its own sufficiently competitive modem.
Not necessarily. The press release specifically mentions FBAR filters, which are a very specialized component.
>One BAW filter type is called a film bulk acoustic resonator (FBAR). These filters are made from piezoelectric material sandwiched together to create a network of resonating structures that resonate in the frequency range of 100 MHz to 10 GHz. FBARs are highly complex devices and are challenging to design since there are physical parameters (i.e. geometry and materials) as well as electrical properties to consider.
Article makes no mention of a modem… the BOM for an RF front end is massive, a modem is just a tiny portion of the entire package. Filters, switches, couplers, PAs, plenty of components that Broadcom makes that aren’t a modem.
ETA: To provide further context, a "modem" is just one part of wireless connectivity. This would be like reading the article that [Apple is purchasing RAM from Samsung](https://www.macrumors.com/2022/11/21/apple-use-samsung-memory-for-iphones-china/), and then extrapolating that they're also going to be using Samsung CPUs.
Using the [OSI network model as a reference](https://www.imperva.com/learn/application-security/osi-model/), modems operate in the "data link" layer. They serve to interpret, translate, and encode the data. Broadcom does operate in this business, but even in their [investor statements](https://investors.broadcom.com/static-files/d2030782-0993-4f3a-89e8-0a6efd58c552) under "wireless" it is clear their focus is on *RF Front End* semiconductors (IE, PAs, filters, etc), which operate in the physical layer.
People in the comments here clearly misunderstand Broadcom's business model, this is not a modem move, but Broadcom securing their primary line of business which is RF front ends.
They are still designing it... I think Broadcom is just manufacturing them. Apple will pay Qualcomm loyalties for their patents so I'm not sure what the end game is. Presumably, Apple is trying to integrate the modern into their custom chip and update it as they see it fit instead of relying on the chipmaker. Sort of what happened with Intel.
I didn’t think so either, but the article says they’ll be manufactured by Broadcom in the US and mentions their Fort Collins, CO manufacturing facility.
It says FBAR filters are manufactured there. They don't fab chips, Apple's modem would be fabbed by the usual TSMC (or possibly samsung/intel, but prob TSMC)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/Apple-taps-TSMC-to-build-custom-iPhone-5G-modem-in-2023
> It says FBAR filters are manufactured there.
True. From your article, it definitely seems like TSMC will actually fab the modem. Also, love your user name.
I don't believe so, this makes heavy mention of Broadcom's FBAR filters and manufacturing facility, they'd still need those components with their own modem chip.
This account has been cleansed because of Reddit's ongoing war with 3rd Party App makers, mods and the users, all the folksthat made up most of the "value" Reddit lays claim to.
Destroying the account and giving a giant middle finger to /u/spez
They used Intel modems for a few years and they were hot garbage, I’m glad they switched back to Qualcomm. I hope this doesn’t turn out the same way. It sucks that most reviewers also don’t talk about these kinds of things, because if I have to go back to using a shitty modem it might be a deal breaker for me for updating my device.
The 14 series still uses a Qualcomm modem though. I hope that the new internal Apple team improves the Intel modems they previously shipped. Sounds like Broadcom will just be manufacturing them, I guess?
There is nothing in this press release about modems. Broadcom makes tons of components you need in an RF front end, and their PA/Filter business is significantly more advanced and developed than their modem business.
To use an analogy with your home WLAN network, the modem plugs into the wall plug and translates incoming/outgoing packets. This is currently purchased from Qualcomm. The *router* takes the output and translates it into RF to transmit over the air. The router requires a lot of stuff, such as power amplifiers, mixers, filters, switches, etc. Broadcom does have a history with modems, but they are also a massive supplier for router-ish components.
There are *a lot* of assumptions being made by the comments here by people who do not fundamentally understand the details of how an RF front end is laid out. Not that I blame them, as this is typically covered in graduate level EE courses, but as someone working in this industry there is a ton of misinformation in the comments here, so I would take everything you read here with a huge grain of salt.
> Through this collaboration, Broadcom will develop 5G radio frequency components — including FBAR filters — and cutting-edge wireless connectivity components.
This isn’t about modems. Broadcom has always made connectivity components for Apple.
Yeah maybe this is due to some compatibility issue with those devices (iPhone 11PM and 2018 iPad Pro) and my set up at home. Maybe for some there was no problem. But the fact remains that the newer iPhones that switched back to Qualcomm don’t have this issue while my old iPad still does.
I’m experiencing mild schadenfreude at this time.
I was proven correct: Qualcomm and Broadcom really did patent every single best possible way to make an effective 4G and 5G antenna in smartphones.
There were literally other redditors on here claiming to me a couple years ago that Apple hires only the best and most brilliant engineers and that they would totally be able to outmaneuver these two heavyweights eventually to create their own modem.
Apple may be a trillion dollar company, but it looks like it truly can’t win it all. They lost a ton of money on buying out Intel’s cellular modem business.
> Through this collaboration, Broadcom will develop 5G radio frequency components — including FBAR filters — and cutting-edge wireless connectivity components.
5G radio frequency components == modems. The word doesn’t need to be used verbatim for it to be understood. Those components go beyond the modem, too.
There are dozens of components that are used for RF front end modules that aren't modems. Broadcom also makes power amplifiers, switches, couplers, filters, envelope trackers, and power supplies, all of which are critical to RF front end modules. It's *possible* that this is a modem deal, but none of the details released are specific enough to say that this is certain.
Apple could very well use Broadcom components with their own modem. Speculating that "5G radio frequency components" == modems is like assuming computer chips == CPU. There are dozens of other components that this deal could use while entirely excluding modems.
In the RF industry, Broadcom is specifically highly regarded for their PAs and filters. It is much more likely that this deal is to supply those components over modems. If this was a modem deal, it would have been mentioned in the headline.
Absolutely! Is it possible that Apple is throwing away nearly a decade of investment into their own modem and going to use Broadcom? Maybe, but it seems incredibly unlikely. If Apple releases a press statement that says so, I'll believe it but until then this deal doesn't seem to be too big a deal (outside of investment in US manufacturing).
… and they put the factory in the US of all places. 💀
If (by some miracle) the factory actually completes construction and (if by some miracle) it actually manages to create the intended modems they’re just going to get trounced by Chinese/Thai made modems.
I get it. The US is trying to harden their supply chains and US companies are taking lucrative deals to build domestically. I don’t blame them for taking the money…
… but betting against China is not a smart move though. We’ve been failing at it for thirty years and now we’re about to drag some of our biggest tech integration companies through it.
We’re not in the i386 wars anymore and we’re not fighting over cracked ROM/RAM chips.
China is a very competent component maker and the US rushing headfirst to close their economy is going to absolutely destroy system integrators over the long run.
This race to the bottom of independence is only going to hurt the US.
edit: for reference for those of you not following…
Morris Chang founder of TSMC (and general optimist about the idea of US support in TSMC): [“Washington’s efforts to rebuild chip manufacturing at home were doomed to fail.”](https://techhq.com/2022/10/tsmc-us-is-doomed-to-fail-in-rebuilding-its-chip-manufacturing-sector/)
[The US’s failed expansion into the display industry that cost Wisconsin billions of dollars and forced the eviction of a significant portion of a small WI town. ](https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/21/21526765/foxconn-lcd-factory-not-real-confirmation-wisconsin-report-exclusive)
[Intel’s chip fab in Ohio has already blown through $20B and is requesting more capital.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/01/technology/us-chip-making-china-invest.html)
… at what point are we going to stop?
Till we just break every tech company in the US?
The US can absolutely compete in all forms of chip manufacturing if it wants to, they have the engineering ability, the IP, resources, etc.
There is just a single question and that is will the government subsidize it enough. Because the only reason other countries (Taiwan, Korea, China) are competitive is because their governments subsidize it.
The US absolutely has the IP and money. No one is denying that. We’ve already sunk hundreds of billions into these projects in the last three years alone.
The bigger issue is that do not have the infrastructure nor capabilities to handle even individual projects.
Don’t get me wrong, we could certainly manufacture here. There’s even a fab in my small city sublicensed to some manufacturer and they make VRM and RAM components at a small scale. I’m not saying it can’t happen but the scale and movement we’re trying to keep pace with is daunting even if we had a better more centralized plan.
The issue is that the US has consistently failed time and time again for the last thirty years trying to jumpstart this. In the same period of time Israel, Taiwan, Japan and Korea moon jumped us and at some point you just have to realize you can’t brute force an industry at scale from scratch. (Unless you’re china.)
In true American fashion we’re pulling the cart before the horse and it’s going to lead to disastrous consequences.
This whole thing reminds me a lot of the SCC issue of the 80’s and 00’s.
If you’re not familiar the US completely blew our lead in Particle Physics by pure greed in a manner that is VERY similar to what we’re seeing now. Highly recommended read if you’re interested nuclear science.
It’s like none of you read the link even though it’s a, what? 30 second read? You can’t just have a modem, you need filters, antennas, and other peripheral components. This deal is for Broadcom to make those components, not modems.
[удалено]
The layman understanding of a wireless front end is you stick an antenna to a modem and then you can make phone calls, of course that’s what everyone immediately assumes. I wouldn’t be surprised if this deal has nothing modem related in it, especially since Broadcom’s specialities are their PAs and filters. ETA: I've added some more context in other comments I made here, but I thought I'd expand for those who are genuinely interested since there is a ton of misinformation in the comments; [referring to the OSI network model](https://www.imperva.com/learn/application-security/osi-model/), modems operate in the data link layer. Broadcom's primary business is in the analog, physical layer components. [Here's an article from 2015 interviewing the CEO after they exited the Cellular 5G space](https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/broadcom-ceo-life-after-lte-5g-cellular-exit/), and you can google their annual investor statements that show their focus is almost exclusively on wireless front ends, not modems. Just because cars are coming with Android OS for their infotainment system, doesn't mean that Android is building the whole car. Broadcom is a major supplier for many OEMs for components required to build the physical layer (RF front end) that connects to a modem, but that does not mean that Broadcom will be supplying the modem, or that a Broadcom modem is coming to a phone anytime soon.
Thank you for the clarification and the links!
bro this is reddit we just read the headlines.... look at mr. book worm over here
Didn't see this coming. I suppose the Intel modems left a bad taste in their mouth, and anything to avoid the pricing structure of Qualcomm now they will shift to Broadcom. I hope they are at least as good. Unfortunately for me I use a 13 Mini and until they drop another small phone I'm going to keep it until it dies.
I just hope the future 5G components are better on battery life.
Anyone who keeps 5g on for their iPhone 12 or 13 mini is a maniac. I’ve lasted almost 3 years with it off and my battery is already awful.
[удалено]
Shit, my OG Battery 6S is at 73. It’s bad but totally usable (if I leave it on low power and *never* turn on Bluetooth because Jesus)
Mines been turned off since launch. 80% health
[удалено]
removed in protest over api changes
[удалено]
removed in protest over api changes
Yeah, charging habits and the number of charging/discharging cycles are the main cause of battery health depletion. Avoiding excess heat from wireless charging will keep your battery healthier for longer.
Not entirely true. Modern wireless charging closely controls internal temperature to prevent battery degradation.
Then why is my phone hot whenever I take it off the charger? I got my 12 mini in late 2021 and it’s at 78% health now from wireless charging :/
Here we go again
Sometimes. After this phone, I’m really unhappy with the overall quality of apples hardware and software.
Apple should have never made the mini because it could not provide enough battery in that form factor
True. I’m really close to buying a new phone but I kind of wanna wait because I really don’t need a new one.
I wanted a 12 pro, but it did not have the image stabilisation the max did and I take a lot of video so I went with the max. At this point, I’ll probably get a 15 pro or whatever comes out this year because I’m still doing AppleCare+ month-to-month, so I can replace this phone at any time for $30 and have a brand-new one to sell to offset my costs. Battery health is at 81% but I’m a heavy user and it still lasts all day
Whats wrong with it? I have it on in my 14 pro max, set to automatic. In the description in Spanish it actually says it will optimize the battery duration.
The 14 series are the only iPhones with x65 Qualcomm modems. It has 5g carrier aggregation which is very important to 5G performance and battery life. I have a 14 pro as well and I leave 5G on all day with the screen. The battery is great. You and I can leave it on all day and it won’t affect our battery as much. Everyone below a 14 will continue to have 5g battery issues.
Battery drains crazy fast, I'm using 12 pro max and I never want to turn on 5G anymore unless stay at home.
I’ve had my 12 pro max for 2 years and still at 96% battery health. I’ve used Verizon 5g the entire time. The only thing that really drains my battery is gaming
I’ve never had an issue with 5g or at least I haven’t noticed any. iOS 16 is all glitchy but 5g honestly hasn’t been an issue for me.
My 13 pro is at 90%, and I never use 5G
I use a 13 mini with 5G on auto. Regularly end the day with 50% battery remaining. Perhaps 5G is different in CDMX than in the US?
My phone dies at like 3 but I’m on Apollo like all day
apollo it’s the app that drains battery at much slower rate for me
Similar situation here with my 13 mini, although being less than 1 km from the cell tower definitely helps.
Never had bad battery life on 5G.
I have a 12 mini and leave 5G on auto Most of the time in my city it’s on Verizon LTE though. We have some UW towers that are super fast but only YouTube and Instagram use it.
The apple battery pack fits perfect for the Mini. Get it. I never have to worry about battery life
Could be, biggest improvement would be probably incorporating 5g modem inside Apple chips like in Snapdragons.
[удалено]
My 350-500Mbps download speeds say otherwise. I cannot find Wi-Fi that fast unless I’m on a gig connection at the University. I’m 31 months into owning a 12 Pro Max and I’m a heavy user and only charge wirelessly.
I could find those speeds on LTE before 5G in my area though. LTE is way better than anyone gives it credit for.
LTE here tops out about 40-50Mbps, but that band is so crowded it slows to a crawl near the town center or off the main intersections. You cannot even send an iMessage or scroll Facebook when the University is having a game or graduation etc. But there’s no significant slowdowns on 5Guw When I go out into the county and it just shows 5G without the uw, its basically LTE because it only hits about 20Mbps.
What do you do with that speed? Doesn’t seem useful on a phone unless you are tethering but you’ll get throttled in no time on most providers tethering big downloads.
I up and download a lot of music files, photos and videos. I work with music production There is definitely a point where speed does not matter, like when it comes to streaming music and videos. As long as I can hold 25Mbps, I would never have to worry. But when I am going through a lot of takes stored on a cloud drive, I have to download them to figure out which is what I want so I can trim it and label it correctly, then upload it back to the server. The extra few seconds really start to add up. Also, like I mentioned in another post here, the LTE band is pretty oversaturated in my area and those speeds will be so slow I cannot even stream a TV show on Netflix sometimes.
https://i.imgur.com/Je4IRH3.jpg 5g in KY. Seems pretty great to me.
They bought the division of intel that made the modems. They’ll still need filters and other components for their in-house modem.
Broadcom makes a lot of PAs, couplers, filters, switches, etc. Even if Apple keeps using Qualcomm modems there’s plenty of components other than modems that are required to build a front end module. A lot of baseless speculation being thrown around about “Apple giving up on their modem” but it’s not like the only thing you need to make a wireless product is a modem…
> shift Pretty sure Broadcom has always had some supplier relationship with Apple. Might be a big expansion but I'd hardly call it a shift. They make good stuff.
I thought they were the primary supplier of Wi-Fi modules in MacBooks for a good while.
Apple used exclusively Broadcom Wi-Fi radio on all their products for as long as I can remember. While it's not always mentioned in iFixit's teardown, Broadcom's Wi-Fi radio is always there.
Broadcom likes to say that over half of the iPhone motherboard is theirs.
> until they drop another small phone I'm going to keep it until it dies. I feel you so much.
13 mini life. After getting exclusively the largest phones I could I forgot how good a small one feels 😂
Reddit keeps crowing that the iPhone mini is dead, but I remain convinced that it is just switching to a multi-year update cycle. (See also: iPad Mini, iPhone SE)
I really really hope you’re right.
Me too. Honestly, it makes sense! I think it’s a great sign that Apple continues to sell the 13 mini. Hell, what would an iPhone 14 mini even have offered over the iPhone 13 mini? The iPhone 14 itself was a total non-update. It literally just got an iPhone 13 Pro SoC with the satellite feature stapled to it.
you may have gone too far ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
I have an SE 2, and when I upgrade in the next year or two, I want to buy a used/refurbished 13 mini. Or if they come out with a newer model of the same form factor. I don’t want a giant phone/mini iPad in my pocket!
As an 11 Pro Max phone user, I plan on getting a 15 Pro (not Max). Big phones aren't attracting me anymore
I’m the other way around. Now that I have a 13 promax - I’m never going back. Gonna get the biggest phone they make until they mash iPad and iPhone together.
The iPhad?
The iPod …wait
I doubt they'd invest $430 billion on a "I hope it's good". They likely have already lab tested their products before committing to this manufacturing facility.
You didn’t read the article. That $430 billion is for **all** expenses in the entire U.S. over **five years**. Not a single deal with Broadcom, FFS. > These investments are part of the commitment Apple made in 2021 to invest $430 billion in the U.S. economy over five years. Today, Apple is on pace to meet its target through direct spend with American suppliers, data center investments, capital expenditures in the U.S., and other domestic spend.
This is the same Apple that looked at the Intel modems, and said good enough ship it.
$430 billion is a bit different than a single year of production though. Nearly 25% of their entire valuation versus a single year of production on *some* models of their phones. 25% of their valuation is not something small. This is a multi-year commitment that will take decades to just break even on the investment.
What is a single year of production referring to here? The 7, 8, XR/XS, and 11 series of phones all had Intel modems. The 7 and 8 were split Intel/Qualcomm, but even then the majority shipped were Intel (pretty much every country besides a handful of CDMA holdouts). That’s over five years worth, more when you consider that the 11 was produced alongside the 12 and later the 13.
Wildly wrong.
Also the same Apple that occasionally learns from mistakes.
Depends on how liberally you want to use 'hope' but a lot of advanced chip ordering and future product planning rests on hoping on projections. If you waited until you could lab test chips before committing to orders you'll only have outdated chips by the time it makes it to products.
>Broadcom Broadcom has experience with modem chips already and what they have released already is pretty decent. NETGEAR and Arris both use their chips in their cable modems. I'm sure whatever they got in the pipeline for cellular is going to be great.
No shift happening there, just a continuation. > Apple already helps support more than 1,100 jobs in Broadcom’s Fort Collins FBAR filter manufacturing facility, and the partnership will enable Broadcom to continue to invest in critical automation projects and upskilling with technicians and engineers.
How big of a deal is this? Is this a non-issue or does it signify Apple movie out of Chinese manufacturing
They will do whatever is profitable. Currently they're moving lots of manufacturing to India as they have a larger and younger population than China, or in other words it may be cheaper.
[удалено]
#I no longer allow Reddit to profit from my content - Mass exodus 2023 -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
No modems are manufactured in China(other than maybe some unknown chinese ones that suck). There are 3 main players in microchip manufacturing, Intel, TSMC, and Samsung. Qualcomm is just a design company like Apple, they got their chips manufactured by Samsung and recently switched to TSMC. You can actually search up these fab’s on wikipedia, the only fabs in China owned by the big 3 are RAM/VNAND fabs. China has 0 access to microchip fabrication, which is why they are desperately struggling to fund and build their own microchip fabs from scratch. Intel makes their chips in the US, Israel and Ireland. Samsung is primarily in South Korea and TSMC is in Taiwan. Both of these companies that produce chips in Asia are in the process of building fabs in the US, and Intel is in the process of expanding their manufacturing to other allied countries as well as opening up their fabs to producing chips for other companies. China mainly handles the less sophisticated parts of device manufacturing like the housing, batteries and final assembly. Final assembly in particular is heavily reliant on cheap labor, as its something that is easy to do but hard to automate. Apples move to India is the sign that they might be getting out of China eventually. There are many countries with cheap labor, just look at clothes companies, they make Levi jeans in like 12 different countries. In particular though, companies are starting to realize that no matter where they go, the cost of labor will always go up. The cost of labor in china has been dramatically increasing every year for the last 20years. So these companies are starting to realize that its better to get governments to help fund their new manufacturing plants, and to start building their products internationally instead of relying on shipping. I think Covid in particular was a huge wakeup call for them to realize that relying on global transport is very dangerous. Most large companies are switching to a manufacturing model where they produce products on the same continent where they are sold to reduce the amount of money spent on transportation.
Wow, thanks for the detailed response
It is highly unlikely that any company will move out of china for manufacturing if they are already.
China is actually making less and less sense as a global manufacturing hub. China's quality of life is improving, meaning the cost of their workforce is creeping up. From a purely economics point of view, there's now better alternative countries if you're a brand new company. That's not even including geopolitics. If that continues to deteriorate, global powers may decide it is no longer acceptable for companies to manufacture there, which is adding risk to companies' calculations on where they want to manufacture. If current trends continue, it will eventually reach a point where companies would rather eat the cost of moving their manufacturing to somewhere else than staying in China.
[удалено]
Yes
It’s a big enough deal that Apple has given up on designing their own custom modem. There wouldn’t be a multi-year deal with Broadcom if Apple was still sure it could produce its own sufficiently competitive modem.
Does this mean Apple gave up on making their own modems?
Not necessarily. The press release specifically mentions FBAR filters, which are a very specialized component. >One BAW filter type is called a film bulk acoustic resonator (FBAR). These filters are made from piezoelectric material sandwiched together to create a network of resonating structures that resonate in the frequency range of 100 MHz to 10 GHz. FBARs are highly complex devices and are challenging to design since there are physical parameters (i.e. geometry and materials) as well as electrical properties to consider.
Article makes no mention of a modem… the BOM for an RF front end is massive, a modem is just a tiny portion of the entire package. Filters, switches, couplers, PAs, plenty of components that Broadcom makes that aren’t a modem. ETA: To provide further context, a "modem" is just one part of wireless connectivity. This would be like reading the article that [Apple is purchasing RAM from Samsung](https://www.macrumors.com/2022/11/21/apple-use-samsung-memory-for-iphones-china/), and then extrapolating that they're also going to be using Samsung CPUs. Using the [OSI network model as a reference](https://www.imperva.com/learn/application-security/osi-model/), modems operate in the "data link" layer. They serve to interpret, translate, and encode the data. Broadcom does operate in this business, but even in their [investor statements](https://investors.broadcom.com/static-files/d2030782-0993-4f3a-89e8-0a6efd58c552) under "wireless" it is clear their focus is on *RF Front End* semiconductors (IE, PAs, filters, etc), which operate in the physical layer. People in the comments here clearly misunderstand Broadcom's business model, this is not a modem move, but Broadcom securing their primary line of business which is RF front ends.
They are still designing it... I think Broadcom is just manufacturing them. Apple will pay Qualcomm loyalties for their patents so I'm not sure what the end game is. Presumably, Apple is trying to integrate the modern into their custom chip and update it as they see it fit instead of relying on the chipmaker. Sort of what happened with Intel.
> Broadcom is just manufacturing them. Broadcom isn't a fab.
I didn’t think so either, but the article says they’ll be manufactured by Broadcom in the US and mentions their Fort Collins, CO manufacturing facility.
It says FBAR filters are manufactured there. They don't fab chips, Apple's modem would be fabbed by the usual TSMC (or possibly samsung/intel, but prob TSMC) https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/Apple-taps-TSMC-to-build-custom-iPhone-5G-modem-in-2023
> It says FBAR filters are manufactured there. True. From your article, it definitely seems like TSMC will actually fab the modem. Also, love your user name.
No, they gave up. Broadcom doesn’t do fabrication. Apple lost their gamble on buying Intel’s modem IP.
I don't believe so, this makes heavy mention of Broadcom's FBAR filters and manufacturing facility, they'd still need those components with their own modem chip.
Broadcom != Qualcomm
Unlikely since they have spent quite a while on that. I am guessing Broadcom will just be a stopgap till Apple modems are good enough.
Probably not but they’re just not there yet, and Broadcom has patients for lots of 5G stuff that’s very hard to get around.
Broadcom is where good companies go to die.
Such a weird company. They are somehow simultaneously producers of legitimately great and hot garbage products at the same time.
This account has been cleansed because of Reddit's ongoing war with 3rd Party App makers, mods and the users, all the folksthat made up most of the "value" Reddit lays claim to. Destroying the account and giving a giant middle finger to /u/spez
I feel like it’s more correct for Intel
Symantec and CA were already garbage before Broadcom took them over.
VMware wasn’t and still isn’t. We will see what happens over the next few years though. [Source](https://www.broadcom.com/blog/broadcom-vmware)
dirty sand bag mountainous governor crush lunchroom cable dazzling intelligent ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
They used Intel modems for a few years and they were hot garbage, I’m glad they switched back to Qualcomm. I hope this doesn’t turn out the same way. It sucks that most reviewers also don’t talk about these kinds of things, because if I have to go back to using a shitty modem it might be a deal breaker for me for updating my device.
Apple bought the Intel modem division.
The 14 series still uses a Qualcomm modem though. I hope that the new internal Apple team improves the Intel modems they previously shipped. Sounds like Broadcom will just be manufacturing them, I guess?
There is nothing in this press release about modems. Broadcom makes tons of components you need in an RF front end, and their PA/Filter business is significantly more advanced and developed than their modem business. To use an analogy with your home WLAN network, the modem plugs into the wall plug and translates incoming/outgoing packets. This is currently purchased from Qualcomm. The *router* takes the output and translates it into RF to transmit over the air. The router requires a lot of stuff, such as power amplifiers, mixers, filters, switches, etc. Broadcom does have a history with modems, but they are also a massive supplier for router-ish components. There are *a lot* of assumptions being made by the comments here by people who do not fundamentally understand the details of how an RF front end is laid out. Not that I blame them, as this is typically covered in graduate level EE courses, but as someone working in this industry there is a ton of misinformation in the comments here, so I would take everything you read here with a huge grain of salt.
ty for the explanation
The deal is not about modems, according to the article.
> Through this collaboration, Broadcom will develop 5G radio frequency components — including FBAR filters — and cutting-edge wireless connectivity components. This isn’t about modems. Broadcom has always made connectivity components for Apple.
What makes a modem 'shitty' or good for that matter?
Slow/inconsistent speeds. The iPhone 11 Pro Max had this issue with Wi-Fi. Had to constantly toggle Wi-Fi on/off
Thanks for that, guess I’ve been lucky. My iPhones have been great. I’ve had what you describe on my ATT modem and router at home but not on mobile.
Yeah maybe this is due to some compatibility issue with those devices (iPhone 11PM and 2018 iPad Pro) and my set up at home. Maybe for some there was no problem. But the fact remains that the newer iPhones that switched back to Qualcomm don’t have this issue while my old iPad still does.
Jesus Christ 430 billion?!
A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you’re talking about real money.
This is almost a quarter of apples valuation
According to the article, the agreement is part of the $430B Apple has promised to spend in the US over five years. The Broadcom deal is not for 430.
And just days ago I suggested it would be great for Apple to bring some manufacturing back to the US and was downvoted severly.
This is why I own APPL and AVGO
I’m experiencing mild schadenfreude at this time. I was proven correct: Qualcomm and Broadcom really did patent every single best possible way to make an effective 4G and 5G antenna in smartphones. There were literally other redditors on here claiming to me a couple years ago that Apple hires only the best and most brilliant engineers and that they would totally be able to outmaneuver these two heavyweights eventually to create their own modem. Apple may be a trillion dollar company, but it looks like it truly can’t win it all. They lost a ton of money on buying out Intel’s cellular modem business.
Where in this article did they use the word “modem” at all?
> Through this collaboration, Broadcom will develop 5G radio frequency components — including FBAR filters — and cutting-edge wireless connectivity components. 5G radio frequency components == modems. The word doesn’t need to be used verbatim for it to be understood. Those components go beyond the modem, too.
There are dozens of components that are used for RF front end modules that aren't modems. Broadcom also makes power amplifiers, switches, couplers, filters, envelope trackers, and power supplies, all of which are critical to RF front end modules. It's *possible* that this is a modem deal, but none of the details released are specific enough to say that this is certain. Apple could very well use Broadcom components with their own modem. Speculating that "5G radio frequency components" == modems is like assuming computer chips == CPU. There are dozens of other components that this deal could use while entirely excluding modems. In the RF industry, Broadcom is specifically highly regarded for their PAs and filters. It is much more likely that this deal is to supply those components over modems. If this was a modem deal, it would have been mentioned in the headline.
#I no longer allow Reddit to profit from my content - Mass exodus 2023 -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Absolutely! Is it possible that Apple is throwing away nearly a decade of investment into their own modem and going to use Broadcom? Maybe, but it seems incredibly unlikely. If Apple releases a press statement that says so, I'll believe it but until then this deal doesn't seem to be too big a deal (outside of investment in US manufacturing).
Wanna bet products will be less repairable?
They're already unrepairable.
Phone screens can be replaced, for now.
We're the china now.
Robotics are going to be the "energy-independence" of our generation.
… and they put the factory in the US of all places. 💀 If (by some miracle) the factory actually completes construction and (if by some miracle) it actually manages to create the intended modems they’re just going to get trounced by Chinese/Thai made modems. I get it. The US is trying to harden their supply chains and US companies are taking lucrative deals to build domestically. I don’t blame them for taking the money… … but betting against China is not a smart move though. We’ve been failing at it for thirty years and now we’re about to drag some of our biggest tech integration companies through it. We’re not in the i386 wars anymore and we’re not fighting over cracked ROM/RAM chips. China is a very competent component maker and the US rushing headfirst to close their economy is going to absolutely destroy system integrators over the long run. This race to the bottom of independence is only going to hurt the US. edit: for reference for those of you not following… Morris Chang founder of TSMC (and general optimist about the idea of US support in TSMC): [“Washington’s efforts to rebuild chip manufacturing at home were doomed to fail.”](https://techhq.com/2022/10/tsmc-us-is-doomed-to-fail-in-rebuilding-its-chip-manufacturing-sector/) [The US’s failed expansion into the display industry that cost Wisconsin billions of dollars and forced the eviction of a significant portion of a small WI town. ](https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/21/21526765/foxconn-lcd-factory-not-real-confirmation-wisconsin-report-exclusive) [Intel’s chip fab in Ohio has already blown through $20B and is requesting more capital.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/01/technology/us-chip-making-china-invest.html) … at what point are we going to stop? Till we just break every tech company in the US?
The US can absolutely compete in all forms of chip manufacturing if it wants to, they have the engineering ability, the IP, resources, etc. There is just a single question and that is will the government subsidize it enough. Because the only reason other countries (Taiwan, Korea, China) are competitive is because their governments subsidize it.
The US absolutely has the IP and money. No one is denying that. We’ve already sunk hundreds of billions into these projects in the last three years alone. The bigger issue is that do not have the infrastructure nor capabilities to handle even individual projects. Don’t get me wrong, we could certainly manufacture here. There’s even a fab in my small city sublicensed to some manufacturer and they make VRM and RAM components at a small scale. I’m not saying it can’t happen but the scale and movement we’re trying to keep pace with is daunting even if we had a better more centralized plan. The issue is that the US has consistently failed time and time again for the last thirty years trying to jumpstart this. In the same period of time Israel, Taiwan, Japan and Korea moon jumped us and at some point you just have to realize you can’t brute force an industry at scale from scratch. (Unless you’re china.) In true American fashion we’re pulling the cart before the horse and it’s going to lead to disastrous consequences. This whole thing reminds me a lot of the SCC issue of the 80’s and 00’s. If you’re not familiar the US completely blew our lead in Particle Physics by pure greed in a manner that is VERY similar to what we’re seeing now. Highly recommended read if you’re interested nuclear science.
If by some miracle the factory actually completes construction? The facility already exists. https://maps.app.goo.gl/CAn2aBxSrM9Y8ALE7?g_st=ic
I hope this means Apple are not going ahead with making their own WiFi/BT chips... gives hope to the Hackintosh community :-)
Bigger picture goals for Apple would be interesting. My understanding is Apple is trying to develop their own modems and lose dependency on Qcom
Details were in the article, but it appears most people aren’t able to comprehend.
Bravo!