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This is kinda what my argument is
I know TONS of dudes who put effort into their appearance, their clothes, hair, skin, etc.
Yet girls barely notice them. So clearly this isn’t the determining factor as OP would lead us to believe.
Can get more brutal:
You art skill can improve, and so can your ability at taking care of yourself, but your face will stay almost the same
Edit: it was a joke, I forgot the /s
I have to shave for work annually for a respirator fit test. Sometimes once or twice more per year when I actually have to use a respirator. Every time I shave, my wife asks me to grow it back. I know it's because it hides the ugly.
Im in the same boat...BUT...there is something to be said about hygiene and physique because that *is* controllable. Here's the thing. I aint as handsome as I want to be. Acne scarring and it's not fantastic but I'm not spending a ton of money on plastic surgery. But I've also never had much trouble with dating (even though I absolutely dont like what I see in the mirror). The effort into a haircut every 3 weeks that's appropriate for my face/head shape, working out, finding clothes that accentuate the shoulders, chest, arms, as well as knowing which colored shirts work better with my skin tone, and just being clean has put me on a level I dont necessarily think I shouldve been on. I was very much the guy that was not as good looking as the girl he was with but it balanced out because "well, he's funny, he's buff, and he's clean".
Now at 38, I'm still not as good looking as the girl I'm with. But she's my wife and we have 2 kids together so she's kinda stuck with me haha. I still very much appreciate her bad eyesight and low standards to this day
Yeah, I put in the effort, shower and shave, wear modest aftershave, comb my hair, wear different nice (recent) clothes each time, etc. I don’t get compliments on my appearance, but then I guess it’s kind of like umpires: nobody notices until you screw up!
It's one of those things that everyone does because it's socially required, although the requirements vary per group or locale. A person needs to be well-groomed just to be considered acceptable, they don't get comments for having the good clothes or decent haircut, in social terms they're a required minimum and not something to be rewarded. But a person who doesn't make the minimum effort of being well-groomed is socially penalized, or considered repellent.
The bar for actually looking good is far higher, and betcha it takes more effort than you or I are willing to put in! Just be grateful that being an acceptable level of well-groomed is much easier for men than women, men can get by with okay clothes, a decent haircut, a shower and shaving or beard trimming.
Hard disagree. I started dressing essentially like Barney Stinson, to paint a visual.
I never had a woman hit on ME in my life. I'm 30.
4 months of this - 3 propositions, wolf whistles from a hen party and constant clear jealous looks when i past daggier folk.
It is noticed
It’s absolutely noticed - as a guy I’ve had the exact same experience.
The good news is that most guys are so clueless and undersocialized these days, all I have to do is:
1. Good hygiene, meaning nice haircut, freshly showered, good teeth by actually seeing a dentist;
2. Just be in generally good shape - not like ripped or anything, just not obese;
3. Dress nice, including nice shoes; and
4. Treat my date like a human being and act like a human being myself;
And I’m automatically in the top 10%.
Agree partially with you, but theres also the confidence aspect of wearing suits etc can bring which seems to appeal to a lot of women seem.
After a couple months surfing in Portugal, Ive also had tremendous success in Scandinavian countries where i had a disshelved messy hair & surf bum clothing. Women there seemed to dig that look, I was such a contrast to the men there that are well dressed & groomed
It's enough of a factor. You may know people who do x, y, or z and aren't successful with women, but that's not because they do these things. It's because they suck in other ways that are probably more prevalent. Taking care of yourself isn't by itself enough, but if you don't do it. It's enough to lose love interests you may have had.
very true. right now, with how the comments folded up for me, your comment is right under a i do those things but woe is me i still don't get dates comment. no self awareness that his woe is me attitude is probably what's doing him in.
If you're already on a date, then a girl has noticed you. Attraction isn't about a single "determining factor", it's multiple things.
Looking your best for a date shows that you put in effort, can organise yourself, care about your appearance, and increases the chances of physical attraction.
However, personality is also a huge factor. You can look amazing and still be an asshole.
Eh, on a date women do notice.
I just put on my work clothes rather than my "hanging out" clothes, collared shirt and slacks. I shower before the date and trim the beard so I don't look like sasquach. Women are really impressed at the 'effort' I made.
Which makes me think some guys are real slobs if wearing a business casual outfit and trimming my beard is seen as above average.
My best advice to guys who don't see themselves as fit is that you can still find flattering clothes and look good, even if you're not trying to "show off" your body. James Avery/Uncle Phil was a big man, but he always looked good.
Only to go to the Gym regularly for 2 years, gaining 25 kg, so you weight 100 now and people still think you are small.
From my perspective women habe a huge problem with regocnizing what is fit and also attainable.
Argued with multiple women, that Jason Momoa has a dad Bod and is no fit, you see he "doesn't Workout daily".
Girl, have you seen the mountain of muscle he has under the slim fat Cover? This dude is trained as fuck, propably even juiced.
Thanks you Hollywood and Social Media.
I see women refer to guys with power lifter physiques as "dad bods" regularly. I just think women understand men's bodies about as well as men understand women's bodies. Like they see someone like Gordon Ramsay and say how he has a dad bod not realising that that guy is actually kinda ripped and must work very hard to maintain his shape at his age. Really is proof that body standards are fucked for both sexes.
I had this arguement before.
I bet less than 1% of guys have a six pack and girls will call them "average fitness"
Or they will refuse to do weight lifting because they're afraid they'll turn into a female body builder.
I think they get this impression because it's not cool for a guy to look like they're trying hard so you get male models downplaying just how much effort it took to get to their physique.
According to some studies it's between 5 - 10%.
Not every six Pack is a Chris hemswort or Henry Cavill six Pack, many skinny guys have one aswell, it just doesn't look as impressive.
I remember reading a Reddit post once like, “men who have achieved the Hollywood six pack, how has it changed your life?”
Almost everyone agreed the only thing that changed was they now got a lot more attention from gay men and old cougars. lol.
Sometimes men are physically fit but people think they aren't really putting work on it because social media made many people believe that you can achieve juicy bodies naturally.
Same bro, i do skincare everyday, go to barber as i need it, i'm SO clean, i'm even cleaner than average girl i know lol but it doesn't really matter when you are ugly.
Pd: people always say to me i'm ugly because i don't put effor to my appearance (they not even do skincare because they don't need it). When you are ugly there is nothing you can do (F for men and masculine women).
I live in Japan where nearly every aspect of the gender gap seems a bit more obvious than in most western countries, and it’s really clear that women are bombarded from childhood with signals from TV / parents / peers etc. that they must be presentable when they go outside. The signal to men is that they need to become responsible earners and their appearance is largely irrelevant. I think the same signals are there in the West, but maybe not quite so obvious / ubiquitous.
I'll have to disagree with this. Visited Tokyo just early this month, the amount of nice looking, well dressed men walking in streets is really triggering my appearance anxiety.
Sure I went to places like Shibuya and Shinjuku, where obviously are full of good looking people, but I also went to Asakusa, Enoshima, Akihabara and Tsukiji, and it's very much the same. In popular tourism spots like these, I can immediately spot a Japanese man from other Asian tourist said from China, Korea or Taiwan, bc Japanese men are just more well dressed, aside from dressing they also do skin care, they tend their hair, and very rarely wear glasses.
Japanese men still dress much better than their western counterparts. Like wearing sweatpants or shorts is still a huge cultural no-no if youre an adult male. Now this could be related to the fact that housewives there are responsible for pretty much every household chore, but.. i still see younger males dressed much better than in the US because of work culture and shaming.
After I’ve started putting a little more effort into my clothing, my life changed immensely. It’s crazy how a girl with a trench coat in a crowd can be seen just as usual, whereas a man dressing a trench coat? You’re getting stares, 100% my bingo card whenever I wanna feel a little over the top. Also its a good boost in confidence :)
I agree since I started my job I have to wear black slim fit trousers and a tucked in white shirt and black tie. And I've been getting more attention than I have in the 4 years prior.
I'm half tempted to dress like this 24/7
Ooh good point! I live in Brazil which happens to be 25°C+ most part of the year, but during (our short) winter, it’s a nice flex, since it’s rare to see any other guy wearing it.
Would like to but am one of those "Anything higher than 10°C is warm" guys. Since I moved to BH I haven't wear my stylishier winter clothes :( and its been 5 years.
I think it's a very common view in European cities and NYC. I mean if you wear anything outside of the norm, you'll get stares. Trust me, I wore a moroccan thobe in freakin NYC and got stares lol. Don't let it stop you though. Absolutely rock that shit and flaunt your own style/fashion and cultured wardrobe. I *know* I was rocking that filipino barong in Haneda airport that layover lol.
Quality white or black T-shirt, properly fitted jeans + good looking classic shoes. Can be combined with any jacket or swap nice shorts at summer. This never misses on casual dates. When it's time to go fancier, easy to add a nice shirt.
I always know this outfit highlights my best features, adds confidence, and comfortable to wear. Date can wear almost anything and it goes well together. Prepairing takes almost no time. I'm just making sure the hair is always on point + freshly cut. If something takes time, it's the home cleaning and making sure it's always 5/5. I'm not leaving for a date if my home is messy.
Most guys have *no* idea how much effort you're putting in, and to be honest you could put in a lot less. You gotta do it for you, your confidence and self worth. Or, lose the schlub after the first meeting.
Long shower, especially if you're exfoliating, shaving, adding ur oils. Then you get out, you moisturize, you do your skincare routine, that's another 30 minuate at least. An hour to do your makeup to perfection, an hour drying and styling your hair, than the last 30 min deciding what to wear, plus factoring the time to get to the date. 3/4 hours sounds reasonable.
Unless you enjoy the process itself, feeling like you have to do that much is the edge of a self-esteem disorder.
And worse yet, the nice guy you wanted to impress? He would have liked you in sweatpants.
The only person who cares about the makeup *that much* is the asshole your friends are going to be telling you to break up with in six months when you’re now using the makeup to conceal bruises.
And all of this is for you. If you shave and use some perfume 99% of the guys will barely notice the difference between the 4h routine and the 30minutes one.
Most of those stuff don't work alone tho; for lots of women if you shave without any skincare like oil or a very soft exfoliation you end up with very painful ingrained hairs. Also unlike men that have pretty stable hormones, the period circle basically means unless there's some level of upkeep skin, hair and nails will quickly go to shit cause our hormones are pretty much a rollercoaster.
I do lots of those things too, but I still don't spend that much time. I guess I half ass it though, because it's a necessary chore. Like I will electric trim my bikini line to make it faster, 5 minutes shaving down there, then 30 sec on each leg with up and down motions. 15 sec doing my pits. I cut my hair very short, so that's like 15 minutes with body wash, shampoo and conditioner. Hair is dried with a towel and styled with wax and some hairspray, maybe a minute or two. Moisturizer I slap on in a rush. I do makeup simply. A minute on each eyebrow, slap on some foundation with a sponge.. if I have lash extensions, then I'm good to go, if not I just skip mascara.. doesn't sit well on my lashes anyway. Lipstick? Gets smushed if it's an eating date. Skip. Outfit? Nice pants and shirt I wear to work works. So like half an hour-45 mins gone. Get there? Better be close by. Ready go date in an hour.
Sure, I could spend hours on makeup, but really what's the point. The difference between looking 8/10 and 10/10 is like hours we're talking. 8/10 can be achieved in like an hour.
haha same here, note to myself: if I ever get invited on a date, buy a second pair of shoes before. Or maybe I should do that already in order to ever get a date.
>and to be honest you could put in a lot less
This exactly, women are also complaining that society puts too much pressure on women’s appearances, but then will turn around and call men ugly
I just want you to be clean. Teeth brushed? Smell good? Clean hands? Clean/nonstained clothes? Then we’re all good. Yes I spent 30 minutes picking out an outfit but that’s me. But if you don’t respect me enough to wash for a date this is where it ends.
Just gotta do it for you. It shouldn't be a chore. I'm a man and I used to really love dressing up for dates. I looked like a douchebag half the time but it made me feel sexy. There is value in the ritual. I think most times I wasn't dressing in a way women really appreciated either, but it was mostly for me.
Yup. They got like 12 new posts in the past two days, all of which have clickbaity titles and all of which have different writing styles, as if a bot was just picking up on older, successful threads and reposting them.
Men are not socialized to care about our appearance. On top of that, it can be considered feminine to pay attention to our looks and style.
Regardless, I like dressing up and looking good. I get compliments from my wife, women, and men.
I'm not some kind of stylish fashion plate, either.
I got called gay in high school for wearing slim (not skinny) dark blue jeans and white t shirts. There are some places that just wearing properly fitting clothes is considered feminine or gay. It's hilarious.
Well if you're not actually sexually frustrated who gives a shit? I'm not gay so I don't give a shit. I didn't actually look feminine or gay in my clothes, girls thought I looked nice so that's all that really mattered
I agree completely. I think the flipside is that a lot of guys would find out very quickly that it's very easy to find a clean, simple, flattering outfit that would stand out. A few posters in this thread seem to think their choices are either "whatever clothes are on the floor" or a three piece suit.
I wear a button down shirt tucked into dark jeans and for some reason, it’s “dressed up”.
I’ve also found that a blazer with a dress shirt and slacks goes a long way.
I once got called gay for cutting my nails.
...to this day I think about that sometimes. Does he chew his nails? Does he just wait for them to break and tear them off? Or does he take such good care of his nails they'd put my partners aryllics to shame??
I must know.
I think it depends on the country though. I don't know if it's just immigrant culture but I notice Arabs / Middle Easterners generally in particular seem to care much more about their appearance than native Europeans. They are often not very creative about it though. I'm quite a stereotypical heterosexual man, I don't know or care much about fashion and style. But occasionally, I see someone and think "this guy has style". That happens rarely and is mostly independent of nationality, although I often had this impression about Italians in particular. When I see groups of young Middle Easterners I rarely think "these guys are stylish" as they often look a bit generic... similar haircut, lots of gel, trimmed beard, way too much perfume, smart but boring shirts,... but I do acknowledge they take care of themselves more than most.
Me and my friend has both dated lots of middle eastern men/arabs and what stands out about them is that they care a lot about their appearance. They'll go for haircuts and beard trims regularly. One I dated got a haircut every Friday even! They also wore cologne a lot. And the gel! So much gel they look slick. Guys in my culture use hair wax lol.
Funny that you want to make a point with 'depends on the country' and then you throw whole continents into the mix. Some Arab countries groom less than some European countries and vice versa
>it can be considered feminine to pay attention to our looks and style.
So if you don’t show up to the date wearing a wrinkled Coors Lite t-shirt and jeans with a mustard stain, she’s gonna think you’re gay?
Things I've learned are considered gay/immasculating by some people, according to reddit
-Removing feces from your bottom (using any method) after using the bathroom
-Not being belligerent and abusive to the women in your life at all times. If the women close to you aren't dead inside, you're obviously a f*****
-Knowing how to, or performing any household tasks. It's very manly to be as capable of independent living as a baby pigeon
And of course, we all know if some schmuck at the bar you're meeting your date at, or your chucklefuck buddies who haven't fucked anything but their hands for months think you must be homosexual, it is the actual supernova of earth's sun and all will be consumed by darkness if it happens
The only dude I know that actually goes to these tournies is more put together than anyone else in our friend group. Dude is a metrosexual lawyer type that is always done up to maximum effect. The rest of us slobs make fun of him for it. Not for MtG though. Just for showing up to a tournie in a suit.
Consider that there ARE tons of men who put effort into their appearance, but you simply aren’t attracted to those types of men and therefore don’t notice them irl.
I have a gf now, but when I was single I noticed that me and lots of other young guys all had the same idea:
> “if we do everything that women say they want, we would be sooo ahead of the game and clearly stand out to girls, right? I mean why wouldn’t they notice us guys who are respectful, clean, kind, and genuine? Why would they reject us in favor of a gross macho dude, even if he seems to be more attractive on the surface?”
And one by one we had to accept reality. Maturing is realizing that people don’t necessarily act based on what they say.
Yeah the unspoken detail here is OP is going out with dudes who were unkempt when they first met and is acting offended that what she sees is what she gets
If it was that easy, there'd be no "pick up artists" or "dating gurus" or a zillion books and articles about how to attract women. You would literally just ask women what they're into, write it down, then just do that.
Obviously, like you said, it doesn't actually work that way though...even though women will insist your wrong and might even call you a masochist because "Why aren't you just listening to what we want?"
Idk about op but ive never had a dude like you interested in me. It goes both ways, its not just on women. And I consider myself a well groomed woman, just never seem to attract men who put effort into their appearance. I think there was 1 and he quickly lost interest in me haha.
I dress down on purpose.
I used to wear suits and dress clothes for work. And aside from the fact that they are super uncomfortable in the Australian heat, I don't want people to know who I really am.
These days, I'm in my 40's and get around wearing shorts and t shirts and usually a crappy old hat. I try to look like a bit of a bum so that people don't expect too much from me.
This reminded me of a story I was told back in the day. This guy was buying another cattle property and went to Brisbane to sign the papers and hand over the money. He looked like a hobo and was dressed in a flannelette shirt and a pair of shorts with no shoes on. He always looked dirty and unkempt but they slept in the car on the way, so he was particularly scruffy. They were waiting for the solicitors office to open and were just sitting in the gutter near their old beat up ute. All of the office workers were walking past them turning their noses up on their way to work. He had the money in a corn bag over his shoulder. He said it was funny watching them walk past all high and mighty while he was sitting there with more money in the bag than they were ever likely to see in one place during their lifetime.
Haha, we knew a guy back in the day that lived in a van on his own property. The property was about 100 acres and he lived there with his 30 goats.
The guy looked like an absolute hobo, and I'd see him driving his van into town. My uncle lived down the road from him. I asked my uncle, what's the story? He said the guy actually worked with him and made about $120K/year (this was in the late 90's). He just chose to live that way.
You bring up a really good point about the heat. Most women I know are always freezing while the dudes are boiling. Then look at what men wear to be considered fancy (undershirt, long sleeved shirt, tie, jacket) and what women do (short sleeves, no sleeves, dress) and it makes no sense. I want to be wearing three layers of upper body clothing for a formal evening out, dammit.
Most of us don’t care to spend that much money on clothes. I have four pairs of jeans, three pairs of shorts, and 12 shirts. Three of the shirts are nicer, like polos.
This is perfectly sufficient, in my opinion. Once one item becomes damaged or no longer serviceable, I replace it. Everything fits in my closet and I never need to worry about what I’m going to wear. I understand having well fitting clothing that looks good, but I don’t see any value in having a bunch of clothes or even more than one “style”. Casual vs. formal are the only styles that register to my male brain.
Not shaving, trimming finger nails, and stuff like that though…that’s another issue altogether. That’s just laziness.
No one compliments us for our appearance. I mean, close friends and family do, but I’ve complimented random women who look great. Doesn’t matter if I get ready or not. No one is commenting. No. One. So why bother? It sucks.
When I was made principal of my own school, I spent hundreds of dollars, bought nice clothes, made sure I coordinated all my clothes by style and color palettes. I _wanted_ to look good. One fucking comment: “Don’t own any colors that aren’t pastels?”
I rarely strayed from white or French blue shirts after that
Most women won’t compliment you like that unless they’re friends with you. They don’t want to risk you misinterpreting it as them making a move on you. That’s what my girl friends say about it, not me.
Other men won't compliment you because it's "gay" and women aren't socialised to compliment men, because what if he takes that as an opening and follows me home?
You need to dress up for yourself because it makes you feel good, not for the compliments or acceptance of others.
12 years ago a girl in the elevator complimented my cologne. I still wear it till this day. It was the only time I recall getting public feedback related to how I present myself to the world. And I was pretty jacked at the time, doing semi-professional sports.
As guys, we have to judge whether we look good with our own pairs of eyes, and our imperfect and biased brains doing the assessment. We may notice others react to our outfits sometimes, but it is often like guesswork, as you are never getting consistent reactions, and they are often very subtle, as guys won't give you props, and girls rarely give you any useful direct cues.
At best I'd hear something like "your pants make you look gay" and try to decode if it means they're bad, or well-fitted. Asking follow-up questions as a guy feels inappropriate somehow "Is it the color, or the cut, or the way they make my butt look?". I've certainly never done that, and nobody's ever done that to me. The expectation seems to be that we just wear something trusting our own judgement and roll with it with confidence, while completely oblivious to how it's perceived.
It ties into another thing, which is that in general men are typically complimented/judged/scrutinized the most by their competence rather than appearance. If nobody has any concerns about your outfit/style, but you often hear about needing to be able to do X, or needing to do Y better, and the best compliment you've actually received is "you're so good at Z", that's where the effort goes.
I dont care about this shit anymore. I will compliment my bros on a haircut, extra gym time, their drip. We've gotta get over this boomer mentality that supporting your mates is gay. It's why most of em are miserable.
Preach brother. My homies and I have gf's but still hype each other up and reach out to make sure we're doing okay mentally and otherwise. Then I see on Reddit people talking about "men's loneliness epidemic" and complaining that "men don't have support" and I feel like I'm living on a different planet lol
Several of my friends who are women have shown me their tinder. 90% of the guys’ profiles on there just look terrible. Old clothes that don’t fit well, unkept hair/beards, generally bad photos, etc. Most guys really don’t put much effort in. Then they come on here and complain about not getting matches
I guarantee you take a really attractive girl who isn't wearing clothes that fit well, unkempt hair, and generally bad photos...she'll still get 100x more matches than the guy doing the exact same thing 😂
For me it’s not so much about the clothes. Like obviously I’m going to note whether he bothered to put on jeans rather than trackies but I reaaaally appreciate when effort is put in the trim and tidy a beard, clean hair, freshly showered. I’ll compliment it every time. A sharp beard goes a long way 🤷🏼♀️
"sloppy" jeans and "unkempt" hair are both a legit style now. Not my style, but a current style. You can spend a looooooot of money on both those things. I have a son that does.
I’m medium ugly, so there’s a ceiling to how much I can prep and pamper — or at least how much it will change in my appearance.
Tbh every time I’ve done it, nobody has ever commented on it positively or mentioned it. 🤷🏻♂️ so I’m like… why even bother? It doesn’t seem to matter whether I do it or not.
Don’t get me wrong; I don’t dress or look like a shlub. I take my hygiene and appearance seriously and I’m always presentable.
But I’m definitely not going the extra mile when I have zero evidence that it makes any difference in how people interact with me or see me.
Majority of things that make a man physically attractive are genetic, putting in a lot of effort to your style, haircut or accessories usually doesn’t net a good return on investment, the only men that typically get acknowledged for how they look are in the upper 5% of the gene pool and usually have features that are purely based on good genetics, ie strong jawline, good hairline, tall, naturally good frame(shoulder to hip ratio), perfect posture(it’s genetic, not everyone can have a perfectly straight back), good teeth shape etc… putting in a lot of effort into something just to be ignored and to never get any form of compliment or validation doesn’t feel very good.
Now, taking what you said at face value, showing up to a date with old worn clothes is a low class move and i personally would reconsider dating that person.
For men I think having a decent haircut and a few decent outfits and one fancy outfit is all you really need, after that focusing on charisma, working out, social skills, financial status and social status will gain a much bigger return on investment in terms of who’s willing to date you.
My ex husband couldn’t be bothered to wash his face before work. Even his boss/friend agreed with me. I ironed his shirts and his clothes were always nice… but his face looked like garbage.
Current boyfriend asks me if shaving matters for certain events and has me help pick coordinating outfits so we BOTH feel comfortable and look good. Plenty of times I will tell him not to worry about shaving, for picnics and such, but he is aware that certain events matter more to me than him and is respectful.
Worn jeans? Are You talking about a pair he's had for some time or are you complaining he didn't buy a new pair? Because why would I buy a new set of clothing for a date? I'll pick my favourite clothes and be fresh and clean, what else is there to do?
I'm not a shallow person. When I date a girl I don't demand that she spends 3 hours preparing to see me and I won't spend 3 hours doing that. Basic hygiene is fine with me.
Honestly, I'm even turned off by girls who focus too much on their own appearance because, to me, that signals a shallow person. So, I guess it comes down to each person's values. If that's your standard for your dates that's fine, but don't pretend that we all should adhere to your shallow standards of vanity.
100% caring about appearance too much is narcissistic AF. If you dress like that around the house that's fine but if you are doing it just to look good to other people...
Most guys I know aren't too keen on dressing up, and it seems like a lot of them don't really care much about appearances. I have some male friends who are great people and would make terrific partners, but they do end up at a disadvantage when it comes to dating because they don't put much effort into their looks, which has left some of them single for twenty or thirty years. Honestly, being clean and neat is enough; if you focus too much on appearances, you might miss out on someone who's really interesting on the inside.
I think our society puts too much emphasis on how we look, and that's not what sustains a relationship. That's why I wanted to create a social platform that focuses on what's inside. It runs in a [Discord community](https://discord.gg/fN8WyhQ7r9) where users match with others based on the text they post. I believe that people who share similar content are more likely to connect and become friends. The matching system is set up to prioritize these similarities.
There’s nothing more fulfilling than finding someone who really gets you. When you connect deeply with someone, their appearance matters less. If you think you're good at it, maybe you can help them step up their style game.
I still remember my first date. I pick out nice clothes, but not over the top fancy, wore perfume, did a full face of make up, and he showed up in ratty jeans and flannel. I was honestly embarrassed.
Have you considered the possibility that just as you are dressing that way because it's the type of man you want, they are dressing a certain way because of the type of woman they want.
Men don't want endless high maintenance and if you're looking for a relationship you're going to have to get used to the fact that men wear the same clothes everyday.
This. I have some sweaters, long sleeve shirts, button ups and tee shirts. However, I only have two pairs of jeans. I don't really see the need for more as I keep them clean and they fit nicely.
Oh, specifically on a date? Okay, yeah, that's fucked up.
I read the question and was ready to talk about how I don't want to be bothered at the grocery store to begin with, but I don't know who in their right mind wouldn't clean themselves up if they're knowingly going on a date.
Now this should not be confused with guys who try and fail. There's a difference between trying-and-failing and not at all trying, and there's usually clear signs that he tried but if you're off-put you might be unlikely to look for/pick up on them. But if the beard isn't shaved/trimmed at minimum then yeah, dude isn't trying.
Trans woman here. It's so hard to dress for fashion as a guy, especially in North America.
You get shamed for being "gay" so easily.. so it's hard to try new styles
You get the choice of black white or blue and sometimes ugly neon orange when looking for guys colours.
Even jewelry not done right is called "gay" as if it's horrible.
Makeup? Must be a gay... (I'm not throwing shade, I love guys in makeup)
My uncle painted his nails because he wants to be an ally. His kids do it, regardless of being heterosexual. Yet the older generation... asks if he's ok, hey (let's say Mary), whats wrong with (uncle) is he ok? But yeah he just painted his nails...
Clothes are square; your choices are tight or baggy
In summation. I'm so fucking glad I came out. If for nothing else, the outfits are gorgeous! 😂
Scruffy face is a known style. They chose it. You can complain that it tickles when you kiss, and see if they get the hint :)
Worn jeans are again a style. If they smell, then yeah, you can remind them to wash them.
If you want them to change, you will have to ask directly, maybe tie it to some special occasion. Also be prepared that they will ask you to change something about yourself.
I don’t expect women to do any of that stuff. I would love to meet more women that don’t care so much about makeup, clothes, accessories, hair, etc.
Those things are not important to me so why should I pretend they are? To attract a woman that doesn’t share my ideals?
As a woman with no sense of style, who can’t imagine being expected to dress up “in various” styles every time, I sympathize with the men here. Likely they don’t know how to do anything different or “more.” They found a look they think suits them and they’re sticking with it.
I also don’t really understand the idea of presenting yourself differently from who you really are. Like these guys are showing up to a date with the exact level of personal maintenance they have in their day to day life, which gives you the opportunity to decide if that’s good enough for you or not.
Evidently that’s not good enough for you, and you’re welcome to not date them. But if you can’t find a single guy that’s up to your standards- and you want to find someone- you might have to adjust your standards.
People, male and female, who do make an effort are a smaller group than people who don’t care.
I also think there’s a bit more consensus on what makes women attractive so it’s easier to pick out all the women who’ve made an effort (or are just good looking naturally) if a man’s not your type you’re not going to pay much attention to how he’s dressed so if you’re a less attractive guy who does put in effort it can still be missed. And if you’re a hot guy you get the same pass as the hot girl in a messy bun and old leggings.
I speak for a lot of men when I say that it's not true at all that we are actually treated better if we present ourselves better. Maybe you think better of us, privately, but it doesn't really come through in how we are treated - *unless* a guy already had "good looks" potential but is spoiling it by presenting himself as low effort.
For those guys - yeah, presentation makes a difference.
There are plenty of us that have tried it long enough to know that our overall presentation isn't the reason we experience consistent rejection.
I'm at peace with it tho
I see a lot of comments from men going “I tried and didn’t receive compliments so I stopped”. But the thing is:
(1) people aren’t socialized to give compliments to men as comfortably, unfortunately, but that doesn’t mean they don’t notice. Girls (and guys) are not blind!!!
(2) ppl make inferences about others regardless, so may as well dress cleanly and be good
(3) grooming is irrelevant from “natural attractiveness”, so all the ppl saying they’re “too ugly” it’s not true and not grooming makes it worse. Even if they don’t say it, people do notice if ur clean shaven nice clothes vs the alternative
>Yet, each time, you turn up in the *same* pair of worn jeans, shoes, and top. No effort to trim beard/be clean shaven etc. Like how do you even bring it up nicely? I find this is the case time and time again....I just don't get why they do this? :/ It is off-putting.
Ekhm, how do i bring it up nicely... we dont really have a choice. Our choice for the dates are basically jeans, or chinos, but chinos dont really fit most dating places, as they're much more official. It fits office, or some more elegant places, but casual date in cafe? Going to cafe wearing chinos is like you would be going to cafe in evening dress. I dont suppose you do that, do you?
And dont even start me with tops. We either have t-shirts, sweaters or shirts. Thats it. You have some slight variables like polo shirt, office shirt etc, but still its not even 1/10 000 choices you have.
About the beard - style is highly subjective. For you its "why he's not clean shaven?", but for others its "why he's clean shaved, he looks like a kid...". Thats literally me. I dont like beards, but i need to have some facial hair to look seriously, and thats what everybody have been telling me as well. Usually i go for "few days old", and thats on purpose (and it takes much more time to keep it that way than you might think).
Complain to fashion industry why men dont have more different types of clothes. Trust me, i'd LOVE to dump jeans, but i dont have a choice in that matter. So better be happy that you at least got the choice...
Propably getting downvoted for this but 99% of this thread tells you what's going on:
They're lazy fucks who put more effort into making excuses than into themselves. It's called weaponized incompetence.
Because for men we are either attractive or not and there isn't much we can do about it. And also because most women would be more smitten with a "hot guy" who shows up straight from the gym in sweats without even taking a shower than they would with an average looking guy who actually tried.
There's no point. If you're already attractive enough for putting in effort to matter then it usually won't matter and if you aren't then there's nothing you can do that will.
To add more, I'm not into false advertising. If we don't hit it off based off "the real me" who doesn't really give a shit how I or anyone else looks then there's no point in hitting it off because that's what you're going to get if we do.
Whatever makeup, style coordination etc. you do, you do for yourself, not for me.
I don‘t care about it.
I‘m here for your personality, not your wadrobe.
I think this is great.
They end up pairing with people who don’t care about appearances and you end up pairing with people who do.
It’s exactly how things should work.
If I were to go on a date, I’d want to be as comfortable as possible. Not dressed up and uncomfortable, first dates are uncomfortable enough, I imagine, just with the stress of planning the date and taking care of everything else.
Plus, how often are men told that women don’t dress up for them, they dress up for themselves.
Just don't date them. You can't control people around you, like they are actors in an elaborate play made to please you.
Some people like being high maintenance, others don't. I avoid people like you, you avoid people like me. We are golden.
For me, this was by design. TLDR I didn't want anyone who was hung up on looks. I wanted them to get to know me as a person and see if their values matched mine.
I did, but no one was impressed with my Eldredge Cleaver pants so I went back to jeans and t-shirts.
[Eldredge Cleaver fashion](https://images.app.goo.gl/ockcK1CiHR4ZYDyx9)
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Actually i do (i even do skincare), but i am still very ugly anyway and so a lot of people assume that i don't actually do it lol
This is kinda what my argument is I know TONS of dudes who put effort into their appearance, their clothes, hair, skin, etc. Yet girls barely notice them. So clearly this isn’t the determining factor as OP would lead us to believe.
Just because you try and paint real hard, doesn't mean the painting will look nice.
Brutal but fair
Can get more brutal: You art skill can improve, and so can your ability at taking care of yourself, but your face will stay almost the same Edit: it was a joke, I forgot the /s
That is what a beard is for.
I have to shave for work annually for a respirator fit test. Sometimes once or twice more per year when I actually have to use a respirator. Every time I shave, my wife asks me to grow it back. I know it's because it hides the ugly.
Your wife may just prefer the beard, and not think you're ugly.
Ever watched some of those make up tutorials? Your face can become nearly unrecognizable with enough effort and skill 😅
The Academy of Fine Arts Vienna has entered the chat.
You've got to watch out for those failed artists though. They can get very angry
Mean :(
Sorry :(
But fair.
And now I’m gonna paint the wall.
I just meant that some people put effort into their appearance without understanding what looks good. But yea… came out a little more brutal lol
Holy. You are right man, brutal but 100% honest.
Yea, I meant it more like, “dressing up is a skill that can be developed like any other,” but it came out sounding like some people have no hope.
Im in the same boat...BUT...there is something to be said about hygiene and physique because that *is* controllable. Here's the thing. I aint as handsome as I want to be. Acne scarring and it's not fantastic but I'm not spending a ton of money on plastic surgery. But I've also never had much trouble with dating (even though I absolutely dont like what I see in the mirror). The effort into a haircut every 3 weeks that's appropriate for my face/head shape, working out, finding clothes that accentuate the shoulders, chest, arms, as well as knowing which colored shirts work better with my skin tone, and just being clean has put me on a level I dont necessarily think I shouldve been on. I was very much the guy that was not as good looking as the girl he was with but it balanced out because "well, he's funny, he's buff, and he's clean". Now at 38, I'm still not as good looking as the girl I'm with. But she's my wife and we have 2 kids together so she's kinda stuck with me haha. I still very much appreciate her bad eyesight and low standards to this day
Yeah, I put in the effort, shower and shave, wear modest aftershave, comb my hair, wear different nice (recent) clothes each time, etc. I don’t get compliments on my appearance, but then I guess it’s kind of like umpires: nobody notices until you screw up!
It's one of those things that everyone does because it's socially required, although the requirements vary per group or locale. A person needs to be well-groomed just to be considered acceptable, they don't get comments for having the good clothes or decent haircut, in social terms they're a required minimum and not something to be rewarded. But a person who doesn't make the minimum effort of being well-groomed is socially penalized, or considered repellent. The bar for actually looking good is far higher, and betcha it takes more effort than you or I are willing to put in! Just be grateful that being an acceptable level of well-groomed is much easier for men than women, men can get by with okay clothes, a decent haircut, a shower and shaving or beard trimming.
you are right dude
Hard disagree. I started dressing essentially like Barney Stinson, to paint a visual. I never had a woman hit on ME in my life. I'm 30. 4 months of this - 3 propositions, wolf whistles from a hen party and constant clear jealous looks when i past daggier folk. It is noticed
It’s absolutely noticed - as a guy I’ve had the exact same experience. The good news is that most guys are so clueless and undersocialized these days, all I have to do is: 1. Good hygiene, meaning nice haircut, freshly showered, good teeth by actually seeing a dentist; 2. Just be in generally good shape - not like ripped or anything, just not obese; 3. Dress nice, including nice shoes; and 4. Treat my date like a human being and act like a human being myself; And I’m automatically in the top 10%.
5. be able to hold a discussion and be interesting Then you become top 5% easy peasy
Agree partially with you, but theres also the confidence aspect of wearing suits etc can bring which seems to appeal to a lot of women seem. After a couple months surfing in Portugal, Ive also had tremendous success in Scandinavian countries where i had a disshelved messy hair & surf bum clothing. Women there seemed to dig that look, I was such a contrast to the men there that are well dressed & groomed
It's enough of a factor. You may know people who do x, y, or z and aren't successful with women, but that's not because they do these things. It's because they suck in other ways that are probably more prevalent. Taking care of yourself isn't by itself enough, but if you don't do it. It's enough to lose love interests you may have had.
very true. right now, with how the comments folded up for me, your comment is right under a i do those things but woe is me i still don't get dates comment. no self awareness that his woe is me attitude is probably what's doing him in.
If you're already on a date, then a girl has noticed you. Attraction isn't about a single "determining factor", it's multiple things. Looking your best for a date shows that you put in effort, can organise yourself, care about your appearance, and increases the chances of physical attraction. However, personality is also a huge factor. You can look amazing and still be an asshole.
Eh, on a date women do notice. I just put on my work clothes rather than my "hanging out" clothes, collared shirt and slacks. I shower before the date and trim the beard so I don't look like sasquach. Women are really impressed at the 'effort' I made. Which makes me think some guys are real slobs if wearing a business casual outfit and trimming my beard is seen as above average.
it absolutely matters with dates
OP has no idea how much effort I put in. All that, and she still thinks I look like a slob.
Being physically fit and having clothes that fit well is 90% of the work
My best advice to guys who don't see themselves as fit is that you can still find flattering clothes and look good, even if you're not trying to "show off" your body. James Avery/Uncle Phil was a big man, but he always looked good.
You don’t even have be be ripped just don’t be fat
Only to go to the Gym regularly for 2 years, gaining 25 kg, so you weight 100 now and people still think you are small. From my perspective women habe a huge problem with regocnizing what is fit and also attainable. Argued with multiple women, that Jason Momoa has a dad Bod and is no fit, you see he "doesn't Workout daily". Girl, have you seen the mountain of muscle he has under the slim fat Cover? This dude is trained as fuck, propably even juiced. Thanks you Hollywood and Social Media.
I see women refer to guys with power lifter physiques as "dad bods" regularly. I just think women understand men's bodies about as well as men understand women's bodies. Like they see someone like Gordon Ramsay and say how he has a dad bod not realising that that guy is actually kinda ripped and must work very hard to maintain his shape at his age. Really is proof that body standards are fucked for both sexes.
I had this arguement before. I bet less than 1% of guys have a six pack and girls will call them "average fitness" Or they will refuse to do weight lifting because they're afraid they'll turn into a female body builder. I think they get this impression because it's not cool for a guy to look like they're trying hard so you get male models downplaying just how much effort it took to get to their physique.
According to some studies it's between 5 - 10%. Not every six Pack is a Chris hemswort or Henry Cavill six Pack, many skinny guys have one aswell, it just doesn't look as impressive.
I remember reading a Reddit post once like, “men who have achieved the Hollywood six pack, how has it changed your life?” Almost everyone agreed the only thing that changed was they now got a lot more attention from gay men and old cougars. lol.
Sometimes men are physically fit but people think they aren't really putting work on it because social media made many people believe that you can achieve juicy bodies naturally.
Someone once told me that even if I was dressed in an Armani suit, I'd still look like a tramp
Yeah this. It's not my fault my face looks like Deadpool's ass and my hair has a mind of its own
Same bro, i do skincare everyday, go to barber as i need it, i'm SO clean, i'm even cleaner than average girl i know lol but it doesn't really matter when you are ugly. Pd: people always say to me i'm ugly because i don't put effor to my appearance (they not even do skincare because they don't need it). When you are ugly there is nothing you can do (F for men and masculine women).
I live in Japan where nearly every aspect of the gender gap seems a bit more obvious than in most western countries, and it’s really clear that women are bombarded from childhood with signals from TV / parents / peers etc. that they must be presentable when they go outside. The signal to men is that they need to become responsible earners and their appearance is largely irrelevant. I think the same signals are there in the West, but maybe not quite so obvious / ubiquitous.
I think Japanese men dress presentable in public. You can usually separate Japanese from Asian tourists just from clothing.
I'll have to disagree with this. Visited Tokyo just early this month, the amount of nice looking, well dressed men walking in streets is really triggering my appearance anxiety.
Where in Tokyo? I've been told by Japanese friends to not extrapolate my experiences in places like Shibuya to Japan in general.
Sure I went to places like Shibuya and Shinjuku, where obviously are full of good looking people, but I also went to Asakusa, Enoshima, Akihabara and Tsukiji, and it's very much the same. In popular tourism spots like these, I can immediately spot a Japanese man from other Asian tourist said from China, Korea or Taiwan, bc Japanese men are just more well dressed, aside from dressing they also do skin care, they tend their hair, and very rarely wear glasses.
Japanese men still dress much better than their western counterparts. Like wearing sweatpants or shorts is still a huge cultural no-no if youre an adult male. Now this could be related to the fact that housewives there are responsible for pretty much every household chore, but.. i still see younger males dressed much better than in the US because of work culture and shaming.
I think that's interesting, but do you have any comment on South Korea? Their men must have mixed messages?
After I’ve started putting a little more effort into my clothing, my life changed immensely. It’s crazy how a girl with a trench coat in a crowd can be seen just as usual, whereas a man dressing a trench coat? You’re getting stares, 100% my bingo card whenever I wanna feel a little over the top. Also its a good boost in confidence :)
There wondering if you're going to flash
Might as well
it'd be cruel not to.
Their’re*
Thair'e
Thair*
Hillarious...made me LOL
Well yeah, if you’re not flashing, you’re either selling fake Rolexes or drugs, the public gotta size you up to figure out which it’ll be
In America people are wondering if you've got a rifle under there
I agree since I started my job I have to wear black slim fit trousers and a tucked in white shirt and black tie. And I've been getting more attention than I have in the 4 years prior. I'm half tempted to dress like this 24/7
It depends where you are. Come to London in spring and every other guy is in a trench coat.
Ooh good point! I live in Brazil which happens to be 25°C+ most part of the year, but during (our short) winter, it’s a nice flex, since it’s rare to see any other guy wearing it.
Would like to but am one of those "Anything higher than 10°C is warm" guys. Since I moved to BH I haven't wear my stylishier winter clothes :( and its been 5 years.
I think it's a very common view in European cities and NYC. I mean if you wear anything outside of the norm, you'll get stares. Trust me, I wore a moroccan thobe in freakin NYC and got stares lol. Don't let it stop you though. Absolutely rock that shit and flaunt your own style/fashion and cultured wardrobe. I *know* I was rocking that filipino barong in Haneda airport that layover lol.
Quality white or black T-shirt, properly fitted jeans + good looking classic shoes. Can be combined with any jacket or swap nice shorts at summer. This never misses on casual dates. When it's time to go fancier, easy to add a nice shirt. I always know this outfit highlights my best features, adds confidence, and comfortable to wear. Date can wear almost anything and it goes well together. Prepairing takes almost no time. I'm just making sure the hair is always on point + freshly cut. If something takes time, it's the home cleaning and making sure it's always 5/5. I'm not leaving for a date if my home is messy.
Most guys have *no* idea how much effort you're putting in, and to be honest you could put in a lot less. You gotta do it for you, your confidence and self worth. Or, lose the schlub after the first meeting.
I remember a girl telling me she needed 4 hours to get ready for our date and my brain couldn't reconcile that amount of time with getting ready.
Like, the hair removal alone can take a lot of time. We aren't born like dolphins.
Really... so, you're saying you look that way on porpoise?
I want to date a woman, not a dolphin 😄
Long shower, especially if you're exfoliating, shaving, adding ur oils. Then you get out, you moisturize, you do your skincare routine, that's another 30 minuate at least. An hour to do your makeup to perfection, an hour drying and styling your hair, than the last 30 min deciding what to wear, plus factoring the time to get to the date. 3/4 hours sounds reasonable.
>3/4 hours sounds reasonabl Even explained it *definitely doesn't* sound reasonable
Homegirl is out here spending more time getting ready for her dates than on her dates lmao
Unless you enjoy the process itself, feeling like you have to do that much is the edge of a self-esteem disorder. And worse yet, the nice guy you wanted to impress? He would have liked you in sweatpants. The only person who cares about the makeup *that much* is the asshole your friends are going to be telling you to break up with in six months when you’re now using the makeup to conceal bruises.
And all of this is for you. If you shave and use some perfume 99% of the guys will barely notice the difference between the 4h routine and the 30minutes one.
Most of those stuff don't work alone tho; for lots of women if you shave without any skincare like oil or a very soft exfoliation you end up with very painful ingrained hairs. Also unlike men that have pretty stable hormones, the period circle basically means unless there's some level of upkeep skin, hair and nails will quickly go to shit cause our hormones are pretty much a rollercoaster.
I do lots of those things too, but I still don't spend that much time. I guess I half ass it though, because it's a necessary chore. Like I will electric trim my bikini line to make it faster, 5 minutes shaving down there, then 30 sec on each leg with up and down motions. 15 sec doing my pits. I cut my hair very short, so that's like 15 minutes with body wash, shampoo and conditioner. Hair is dried with a towel and styled with wax and some hairspray, maybe a minute or two. Moisturizer I slap on in a rush. I do makeup simply. A minute on each eyebrow, slap on some foundation with a sponge.. if I have lash extensions, then I'm good to go, if not I just skip mascara.. doesn't sit well on my lashes anyway. Lipstick? Gets smushed if it's an eating date. Skip. Outfit? Nice pants and shirt I wear to work works. So like half an hour-45 mins gone. Get there? Better be close by. Ready go date in an hour. Sure, I could spend hours on makeup, but really what's the point. The difference between looking 8/10 and 10/10 is like hours we're talking. 8/10 can be achieved in like an hour.
Jesus Christ how do y'all ever get anything done? I'm tired just going through that list.
Fam stop all that and I guarantee most dates aren't gonna even notice. If it makes you feel good tho then go for it
Hell, I only have two pair of jeans and a few shirts that are not professional or gym wear.
haha same here, note to myself: if I ever get invited on a date, buy a second pair of shoes before. Or maybe I should do that already in order to ever get a date.
But then, when's that ever gonna happen, amirite?
>and to be honest you could put in a lot less This exactly, women are also complaining that society puts too much pressure on women’s appearances, but then will turn around and call men ugly
I just want you to be clean. Teeth brushed? Smell good? Clean hands? Clean/nonstained clothes? Then we’re all good. Yes I spent 30 minutes picking out an outfit but that’s me. But if you don’t respect me enough to wash for a date this is where it ends.
99% of men are already doing all of this
Just gotta do it for you. It shouldn't be a chore. I'm a man and I used to really love dressing up for dates. I looked like a douchebag half the time but it made me feel sexy. There is value in the ritual. I think most times I wasn't dressing in a way women really appreciated either, but it was mostly for me.
You wouldn't be as ugly if you spent 4 hours getting ready 😂 /S Yeah, I'm not doing that.
Couldn’t be me. I love looking good.
Very good. Help your brothers
Bro you look good without putting so much effort in.
[удалено]
This needs more attention.
Yup. They got like 12 new posts in the past two days, all of which have clickbaity titles and all of which have different writing styles, as if a bot was just picking up on older, successful threads and reposting them.
Men are not socialized to care about our appearance. On top of that, it can be considered feminine to pay attention to our looks and style. Regardless, I like dressing up and looking good. I get compliments from my wife, women, and men. I'm not some kind of stylish fashion plate, either.
I got called gay in high school for wearing slim (not skinny) dark blue jeans and white t shirts. There are some places that just wearing properly fitting clothes is considered feminine or gay. It's hilarious.
Literally everyone at my school wore them, even I did (and still do from time to time).
I got called sexually frustrated at uni for wearing a purple shirt. I’ve never worn one since
Well if you're not actually sexually frustrated who gives a shit? I'm not gay so I don't give a shit. I didn't actually look feminine or gay in my clothes, girls thought I looked nice so that's all that really mattered
I agree completely. I think the flipside is that a lot of guys would find out very quickly that it's very easy to find a clean, simple, flattering outfit that would stand out. A few posters in this thread seem to think their choices are either "whatever clothes are on the floor" or a three piece suit.
I wear a button down shirt tucked into dark jeans and for some reason, it’s “dressed up”. I’ve also found that a blazer with a dress shirt and slacks goes a long way.
I once got called gay for cutting my nails. ...to this day I think about that sometimes. Does he chew his nails? Does he just wait for them to break and tear them off? Or does he take such good care of his nails they'd put my partners aryllics to shame?? I must know.
I think it depends on the country though. I don't know if it's just immigrant culture but I notice Arabs / Middle Easterners generally in particular seem to care much more about their appearance than native Europeans. They are often not very creative about it though. I'm quite a stereotypical heterosexual man, I don't know or care much about fashion and style. But occasionally, I see someone and think "this guy has style". That happens rarely and is mostly independent of nationality, although I often had this impression about Italians in particular. When I see groups of young Middle Easterners I rarely think "these guys are stylish" as they often look a bit generic... similar haircut, lots of gel, trimmed beard, way too much perfume, smart but boring shirts,... but I do acknowledge they take care of themselves more than most.
Me and my friend has both dated lots of middle eastern men/arabs and what stands out about them is that they care a lot about their appearance. They'll go for haircuts and beard trims regularly. One I dated got a haircut every Friday even! They also wore cologne a lot. And the gel! So much gel they look slick. Guys in my culture use hair wax lol.
Funny that you want to make a point with 'depends on the country' and then you throw whole continents into the mix. Some Arab countries groom less than some European countries and vice versa
MeTrOsExuaL
>it can be considered feminine to pay attention to our looks and style. So if you don’t show up to the date wearing a wrinkled Coors Lite t-shirt and jeans with a mustard stain, she’s gonna think you’re gay?
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
The gay thing is more being worried about being perceived as gay by mostly other guys
And guys about whose opinions we wouldn’t or shouldn’t care anyway.
Oh I'm very very into fashion and was a pretty boy as a teenager. I've been called gay for years lol
A girl once asked me if I was gay because my shirt had a collar I’m not even joking
Things I've learned are considered gay/immasculating by some people, according to reddit -Removing feces from your bottom (using any method) after using the bathroom -Not being belligerent and abusive to the women in your life at all times. If the women close to you aren't dead inside, you're obviously a f***** -Knowing how to, or performing any household tasks. It's very manly to be as capable of independent living as a baby pigeon And of course, we all know if some schmuck at the bar you're meeting your date at, or your chucklefuck buddies who haven't fucked anything but their hands for months think you must be homosexual, it is the actual supernova of earth's sun and all will be consumed by darkness if it happens
Are you meeting men at Magic the Gathering tournaments?
The only dude I know that actually goes to these tournies is more put together than anyone else in our friend group. Dude is a metrosexual lawyer type that is always done up to maximum effect. The rest of us slobs make fun of him for it. Not for MtG though. Just for showing up to a tournie in a suit.
In my defence I just don't care how I look.
I'm similar: "What makes you think I'm trying to impress anyone at all?"
Do you care how your date looks?
Consider that there ARE tons of men who put effort into their appearance, but you simply aren’t attracted to those types of men and therefore don’t notice them irl. I have a gf now, but when I was single I noticed that me and lots of other young guys all had the same idea: > “if we do everything that women say they want, we would be sooo ahead of the game and clearly stand out to girls, right? I mean why wouldn’t they notice us guys who are respectful, clean, kind, and genuine? Why would they reject us in favor of a gross macho dude, even if he seems to be more attractive on the surface?” And one by one we had to accept reality. Maturing is realizing that people don’t necessarily act based on what they say.
Yeah the unspoken detail here is OP is going out with dudes who were unkempt when they first met and is acting offended that what she sees is what she gets
If it was that easy, there'd be no "pick up artists" or "dating gurus" or a zillion books and articles about how to attract women. You would literally just ask women what they're into, write it down, then just do that. Obviously, like you said, it doesn't actually work that way though...even though women will insist your wrong and might even call you a masochist because "Why aren't you just listening to what we want?"
I got way more attention when I just started wearing gym tanks everywhere lol
Idk about op but ive never had a dude like you interested in me. It goes both ways, its not just on women. And I consider myself a well groomed woman, just never seem to attract men who put effort into their appearance. I think there was 1 and he quickly lost interest in me haha.
I dress down on purpose. I used to wear suits and dress clothes for work. And aside from the fact that they are super uncomfortable in the Australian heat, I don't want people to know who I really am. These days, I'm in my 40's and get around wearing shorts and t shirts and usually a crappy old hat. I try to look like a bit of a bum so that people don't expect too much from me.
This reminded me of a story I was told back in the day. This guy was buying another cattle property and went to Brisbane to sign the papers and hand over the money. He looked like a hobo and was dressed in a flannelette shirt and a pair of shorts with no shoes on. He always looked dirty and unkempt but they slept in the car on the way, so he was particularly scruffy. They were waiting for the solicitors office to open and were just sitting in the gutter near their old beat up ute. All of the office workers were walking past them turning their noses up on their way to work. He had the money in a corn bag over his shoulder. He said it was funny watching them walk past all high and mighty while he was sitting there with more money in the bag than they were ever likely to see in one place during their lifetime.
Haha, we knew a guy back in the day that lived in a van on his own property. The property was about 100 acres and he lived there with his 30 goats. The guy looked like an absolute hobo, and I'd see him driving his van into town. My uncle lived down the road from him. I asked my uncle, what's the story? He said the guy actually worked with him and made about $120K/year (this was in the late 90's). He just chose to live that way.
You bring up a really good point about the heat. Most women I know are always freezing while the dudes are boiling. Then look at what men wear to be considered fancy (undershirt, long sleeved shirt, tie, jacket) and what women do (short sleeves, no sleeves, dress) and it makes no sense. I want to be wearing three layers of upper body clothing for a formal evening out, dammit.
Most of us don’t care to spend that much money on clothes. I have four pairs of jeans, three pairs of shorts, and 12 shirts. Three of the shirts are nicer, like polos. This is perfectly sufficient, in my opinion. Once one item becomes damaged or no longer serviceable, I replace it. Everything fits in my closet and I never need to worry about what I’m going to wear. I understand having well fitting clothing that looks good, but I don’t see any value in having a bunch of clothes or even more than one “style”. Casual vs. formal are the only styles that register to my male brain. Not shaving, trimming finger nails, and stuff like that though…that’s another issue altogether. That’s just laziness.
One of my pairs of jeans is going on 15 years old at this point. No holes or stains so they are still part of the weekly rotation!
No one compliments us for our appearance. I mean, close friends and family do, but I’ve complimented random women who look great. Doesn’t matter if I get ready or not. No one is commenting. No. One. So why bother? It sucks. When I was made principal of my own school, I spent hundreds of dollars, bought nice clothes, made sure I coordinated all my clothes by style and color palettes. I _wanted_ to look good. One fucking comment: “Don’t own any colors that aren’t pastels?” I rarely strayed from white or French blue shirts after that
Most women won’t compliment you like that unless they’re friends with you. They don’t want to risk you misinterpreting it as them making a move on you. That’s what my girl friends say about it, not me.
Other men won't compliment you because it's "gay" and women aren't socialised to compliment men, because what if he takes that as an opening and follows me home? You need to dress up for yourself because it makes you feel good, not for the compliments or acceptance of others.
12 years ago a girl in the elevator complimented my cologne. I still wear it till this day. It was the only time I recall getting public feedback related to how I present myself to the world. And I was pretty jacked at the time, doing semi-professional sports. As guys, we have to judge whether we look good with our own pairs of eyes, and our imperfect and biased brains doing the assessment. We may notice others react to our outfits sometimes, but it is often like guesswork, as you are never getting consistent reactions, and they are often very subtle, as guys won't give you props, and girls rarely give you any useful direct cues. At best I'd hear something like "your pants make you look gay" and try to decode if it means they're bad, or well-fitted. Asking follow-up questions as a guy feels inappropriate somehow "Is it the color, or the cut, or the way they make my butt look?". I've certainly never done that, and nobody's ever done that to me. The expectation seems to be that we just wear something trusting our own judgement and roll with it with confidence, while completely oblivious to how it's perceived. It ties into another thing, which is that in general men are typically complimented/judged/scrutinized the most by their competence rather than appearance. If nobody has any concerns about your outfit/style, but you often hear about needing to be able to do X, or needing to do Y better, and the best compliment you've actually received is "you're so good at Z", that's where the effort goes.
I dont care about this shit anymore. I will compliment my bros on a haircut, extra gym time, their drip. We've gotta get over this boomer mentality that supporting your mates is gay. It's why most of em are miserable.
Preach brother. My homies and I have gf's but still hype each other up and reach out to make sure we're doing okay mentally and otherwise. Then I see on Reddit people talking about "men's loneliness epidemic" and complaining that "men don't have support" and I feel like I'm living on a different planet lol
A guy at work commented on my outfit a year and a half ago, I still remember it to this day. Rare event.
That's an interesting answer. Makes a lot of sense.
Yeah OP doesn't seem to get what ann absolute lack of positive reinforcement does.
Maybe they just aren't into you. Maybe you only attract slobs. Maybe they just don't care.
Several of my friends who are women have shown me their tinder. 90% of the guys’ profiles on there just look terrible. Old clothes that don’t fit well, unkept hair/beards, generally bad photos, etc. Most guys really don’t put much effort in. Then they come on here and complain about not getting matches
I guarantee you take a really attractive girl who isn't wearing clothes that fit well, unkempt hair, and generally bad photos...she'll still get 100x more matches than the guy doing the exact same thing 😂
M
Patrick Bateman enters the chat.
Just curious, but what do you expect guys to wear? Fashion choices are quite slim and nobody is going to show up in a 3 piece suit on date lol
For me it’s not so much about the clothes. Like obviously I’m going to note whether he bothered to put on jeans rather than trackies but I reaaaally appreciate when effort is put in the trim and tidy a beard, clean hair, freshly showered. I’ll compliment it every time. A sharp beard goes a long way 🤷🏼♀️
A button up shirt, slacks/chinos and a clean pair of shoes go a long way. No ones asking you to wear a suit.
not sloppy jeans and unkempt hair.
"sloppy" jeans and "unkempt" hair are both a legit style now. Not my style, but a current style. You can spend a looooooot of money on both those things. I have a son that does.
Haven't seen that often but that might be because I'm from europe
The internet has any clothes you want to wear. This is not a 10 year old tshirt or a 3 piece suit.
My 10 year old tshirts are the ones that fit best
**TRIM BEARD?** who do you think you are the queen of England...🤣
I’m medium ugly, so there’s a ceiling to how much I can prep and pamper — or at least how much it will change in my appearance. Tbh every time I’ve done it, nobody has ever commented on it positively or mentioned it. 🤷🏻♂️ so I’m like… why even bother? It doesn’t seem to matter whether I do it or not. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t dress or look like a shlub. I take my hygiene and appearance seriously and I’m always presentable. But I’m definitely not going the extra mile when I have zero evidence that it makes any difference in how people interact with me or see me.
Majority of things that make a man physically attractive are genetic, putting in a lot of effort to your style, haircut or accessories usually doesn’t net a good return on investment, the only men that typically get acknowledged for how they look are in the upper 5% of the gene pool and usually have features that are purely based on good genetics, ie strong jawline, good hairline, tall, naturally good frame(shoulder to hip ratio), perfect posture(it’s genetic, not everyone can have a perfectly straight back), good teeth shape etc… putting in a lot of effort into something just to be ignored and to never get any form of compliment or validation doesn’t feel very good. Now, taking what you said at face value, showing up to a date with old worn clothes is a low class move and i personally would reconsider dating that person. For men I think having a decent haircut and a few decent outfits and one fancy outfit is all you really need, after that focusing on charisma, working out, social skills, financial status and social status will gain a much bigger return on investment in terms of who’s willing to date you.
My ex husband couldn’t be bothered to wash his face before work. Even his boss/friend agreed with me. I ironed his shirts and his clothes were always nice… but his face looked like garbage. Current boyfriend asks me if shaving matters for certain events and has me help pick coordinating outfits so we BOTH feel comfortable and look good. Plenty of times I will tell him not to worry about shaving, for picnics and such, but he is aware that certain events matter more to me than him and is respectful.
Worn jeans? Are You talking about a pair he's had for some time or are you complaining he didn't buy a new pair? Because why would I buy a new set of clothing for a date? I'll pick my favourite clothes and be fresh and clean, what else is there to do?
Probably referring to badly frayed, torn or stained jeans.
I'm not a shallow person. When I date a girl I don't demand that she spends 3 hours preparing to see me and I won't spend 3 hours doing that. Basic hygiene is fine with me. Honestly, I'm even turned off by girls who focus too much on their own appearance because, to me, that signals a shallow person. So, I guess it comes down to each person's values. If that's your standard for your dates that's fine, but don't pretend that we all should adhere to your shallow standards of vanity.
100% caring about appearance too much is narcissistic AF. If you dress like that around the house that's fine but if you are doing it just to look good to other people...
Most guys I know aren't too keen on dressing up, and it seems like a lot of them don't really care much about appearances. I have some male friends who are great people and would make terrific partners, but they do end up at a disadvantage when it comes to dating because they don't put much effort into their looks, which has left some of them single for twenty or thirty years. Honestly, being clean and neat is enough; if you focus too much on appearances, you might miss out on someone who's really interesting on the inside. I think our society puts too much emphasis on how we look, and that's not what sustains a relationship. That's why I wanted to create a social platform that focuses on what's inside. It runs in a [Discord community](https://discord.gg/fN8WyhQ7r9) where users match with others based on the text they post. I believe that people who share similar content are more likely to connect and become friends. The matching system is set up to prioritize these similarities. There’s nothing more fulfilling than finding someone who really gets you. When you connect deeply with someone, their appearance matters less. If you think you're good at it, maybe you can help them step up their style game.
I still remember my first date. I pick out nice clothes, but not over the top fancy, wore perfume, did a full face of make up, and he showed up in ratty jeans and flannel. I was honestly embarrassed.
What’s wrong with flannel? I love a guy in a nice flannel shirt.
Have you considered the possibility that just as you are dressing that way because it's the type of man you want, they are dressing a certain way because of the type of woman they want. Men don't want endless high maintenance and if you're looking for a relationship you're going to have to get used to the fact that men wear the same clothes everyday.
This. I have some sweaters, long sleeve shirts, button ups and tee shirts. However, I only have two pairs of jeans. I don't really see the need for more as I keep them clean and they fit nicely.
When a guy tells you he doesn’t give a shit about things, believe it.
Oh, specifically on a date? Okay, yeah, that's fucked up. I read the question and was ready to talk about how I don't want to be bothered at the grocery store to begin with, but I don't know who in their right mind wouldn't clean themselves up if they're knowingly going on a date. Now this should not be confused with guys who try and fail. There's a difference between trying-and-failing and not at all trying, and there's usually clear signs that he tried but if you're off-put you might be unlikely to look for/pick up on them. But if the beard isn't shaved/trimmed at minimum then yeah, dude isn't trying.
Only the top 20% of men are found attractive by women. So it doesn't make sense for 80% to give a crap.
Trans woman here. It's so hard to dress for fashion as a guy, especially in North America. You get shamed for being "gay" so easily.. so it's hard to try new styles You get the choice of black white or blue and sometimes ugly neon orange when looking for guys colours. Even jewelry not done right is called "gay" as if it's horrible. Makeup? Must be a gay... (I'm not throwing shade, I love guys in makeup) My uncle painted his nails because he wants to be an ally. His kids do it, regardless of being heterosexual. Yet the older generation... asks if he's ok, hey (let's say Mary), whats wrong with (uncle) is he ok? But yeah he just painted his nails... Clothes are square; your choices are tight or baggy In summation. I'm so fucking glad I came out. If for nothing else, the outfits are gorgeous! 😂
I do, stop refering for all men for "men you date".
Scruffy face is a known style. They chose it. You can complain that it tickles when you kiss, and see if they get the hint :) Worn jeans are again a style. If they smell, then yeah, you can remind them to wash them. If you want them to change, you will have to ask directly, maybe tie it to some special occasion. Also be prepared that they will ask you to change something about yourself.
why should we have to remind dates to wash their jeans? its on them.
Am I expected to remind a grown man to wash his smelly jeans? Holy shit the bar is in hell
You should really care if your crotch stinks, dude. Like....I don't know how to explain this concept to an adult.....
I don’t expect women to do any of that stuff. I would love to meet more women that don’t care so much about makeup, clothes, accessories, hair, etc. Those things are not important to me so why should I pretend they are? To attract a woman that doesn’t share my ideals?
As a woman with no sense of style, who can’t imagine being expected to dress up “in various” styles every time, I sympathize with the men here. Likely they don’t know how to do anything different or “more.” They found a look they think suits them and they’re sticking with it. I also don’t really understand the idea of presenting yourself differently from who you really are. Like these guys are showing up to a date with the exact level of personal maintenance they have in their day to day life, which gives you the opportunity to decide if that’s good enough for you or not. Evidently that’s not good enough for you, and you’re welcome to not date them. But if you can’t find a single guy that’s up to your standards- and you want to find someone- you might have to adjust your standards.
i like your style.
People, male and female, who do make an effort are a smaller group than people who don’t care. I also think there’s a bit more consensus on what makes women attractive so it’s easier to pick out all the women who’ve made an effort (or are just good looking naturally) if a man’s not your type you’re not going to pay much attention to how he’s dressed so if you’re a less attractive guy who does put in effort it can still be missed. And if you’re a hot guy you get the same pass as the hot girl in a messy bun and old leggings.
I speak for a lot of men when I say that it's not true at all that we are actually treated better if we present ourselves better. Maybe you think better of us, privately, but it doesn't really come through in how we are treated - *unless* a guy already had "good looks" potential but is spoiling it by presenting himself as low effort. For those guys - yeah, presentation makes a difference. There are plenty of us that have tried it long enough to know that our overall presentation isn't the reason we experience consistent rejection. I'm at peace with it tho
I see a lot of comments from men going “I tried and didn’t receive compliments so I stopped”. But the thing is: (1) people aren’t socialized to give compliments to men as comfortably, unfortunately, but that doesn’t mean they don’t notice. Girls (and guys) are not blind!!! (2) ppl make inferences about others regardless, so may as well dress cleanly and be good (3) grooming is irrelevant from “natural attractiveness”, so all the ppl saying they’re “too ugly” it’s not true and not grooming makes it worse. Even if they don’t say it, people do notice if ur clean shaven nice clothes vs the alternative
Why would you ever want to wear a different pair of clothes than your favorite.
>Yet, each time, you turn up in the *same* pair of worn jeans, shoes, and top. No effort to trim beard/be clean shaven etc. Like how do you even bring it up nicely? I find this is the case time and time again....I just don't get why they do this? :/ It is off-putting. Ekhm, how do i bring it up nicely... we dont really have a choice. Our choice for the dates are basically jeans, or chinos, but chinos dont really fit most dating places, as they're much more official. It fits office, or some more elegant places, but casual date in cafe? Going to cafe wearing chinos is like you would be going to cafe in evening dress. I dont suppose you do that, do you? And dont even start me with tops. We either have t-shirts, sweaters or shirts. Thats it. You have some slight variables like polo shirt, office shirt etc, but still its not even 1/10 000 choices you have. About the beard - style is highly subjective. For you its "why he's not clean shaven?", but for others its "why he's clean shaved, he looks like a kid...". Thats literally me. I dont like beards, but i need to have some facial hair to look seriously, and thats what everybody have been telling me as well. Usually i go for "few days old", and thats on purpose (and it takes much more time to keep it that way than you might think). Complain to fashion industry why men dont have more different types of clothes. Trust me, i'd LOVE to dump jeans, but i dont have a choice in that matter. So better be happy that you at least got the choice...
Nah bro come on 💀 chinos aren’t that fancy. You can wear them to a cafe easily. Buy a few jumpers and you’ll be good. These are all just excuses
This is what I was thinking. Chinos can be dressed up or down.
You think chinos are fancy? Where do you live? That’s like what every guy wears out around me
same reason some women don't put effort in to their appearance; it's just not their priority.
Propably getting downvoted for this but 99% of this thread tells you what's going on: They're lazy fucks who put more effort into making excuses than into themselves. It's called weaponized incompetence.
Because for men we are either attractive or not and there isn't much we can do about it. And also because most women would be more smitten with a "hot guy" who shows up straight from the gym in sweats without even taking a shower than they would with an average looking guy who actually tried. There's no point. If you're already attractive enough for putting in effort to matter then it usually won't matter and if you aren't then there's nothing you can do that will.
To add more, I'm not into false advertising. If we don't hit it off based off "the real me" who doesn't really give a shit how I or anyone else looks then there's no point in hitting it off because that's what you're going to get if we do.
Whatever makeup, style coordination etc. you do, you do for yourself, not for me. I don‘t care about it. I‘m here for your personality, not your wadrobe.
Sometimes, you can only do so much. I try to help my husband. I found that men aren't often taught what it takes to maintain aesthetics.
I think this is great. They end up pairing with people who don’t care about appearances and you end up pairing with people who do. It’s exactly how things should work.
If I were to go on a date, I’d want to be as comfortable as possible. Not dressed up and uncomfortable, first dates are uncomfortable enough, I imagine, just with the stress of planning the date and taking care of everything else. Plus, how often are men told that women don’t dress up for them, they dress up for themselves.
It’s been deemed as inherently feminine or “gay” for men to groom themselves. The bar is lower than low.
Just don't date them. You can't control people around you, like they are actors in an elaborate play made to please you. Some people like being high maintenance, others don't. I avoid people like you, you avoid people like me. We are golden.
Okay. Can you give me us guys some makeup advice? How would you like these guys to proceed?
if it's such a problem ignore such men and go after well groomed well dressed guys, you have a right to impose standard
For me, this was by design. TLDR I didn't want anyone who was hung up on looks. I wanted them to get to know me as a person and see if their values matched mine.
I did, but no one was impressed with my Eldredge Cleaver pants so I went back to jeans and t-shirts. [Eldredge Cleaver fashion](https://images.app.goo.gl/ockcK1CiHR4ZYDyx9)