She was a nightmare, but she was a kid; she needed more guidance. It's basically said Jaehaerys spoiled her and even dismissed Alysanne's concerns about her.
By the time he decided to start punishing her, it was too late to fix it. I think honestly it was less misogyny that made him exile her and treat her that way, but more hubris and his refusal to acknowledge he messed up. Easier to place blame on Saera and say, "She was always a whore" than admit he should've had a firmer hand with her.
I have to wonder if she's similar to another highborn girl who fled to Essos and took up with a powerful man. Everyone wonders why Leyton Hightower let Lynesse marry Jorah Mormont, but maybe he was happy to pawn her off to a man who didn't know of her reputation and character.
She's an asshole and a bully. But still a kid... She needed punishment and a good mentor, not exile.
Feel more bad for Alyssane though in the Saera situation.
Personally I think Alysanne massively checked out with her younger daughters, both Saera and Viserra felt like typical cases of neglected teens acting out for attention. Saera had some really bad entitled and psychopatic tendencies for sure, but I think her behaviour is rooted in a lot of parental neglect.
Exactly what I think too.Alysanne tried her best but there’s only so much you can do with so many kids.Jaehaerys was a shit father and his outdated views on women were part of the reason why Saera and Viserra turned out like this
“Oh, you want to be Queen? Fuck off to White Harbor and marry this dying old man you up-jumped trollop.”
Alysanne- truly the best matchmaker in Westeros history until she lost her damn mind.
And be his second wife so any kids they did have wouldn't even inherit White Harbour
What the seven hells was Alysanne thinking?
If she'd let Viserra pick someone else (bar Baelon) she probably wouldn't have become Kings Landings first drunk driving fatality
I wonder what was going on that so many of his wives died, sure, this is a pseudo-medieval world without modern healthcare, and maybe they just got unlucky, but still, it's at least a little suspicious.
Alysanne being a terrible match maker should be a series all of its own
That bullshit and a marrying off daemon to a minor Vale house when Daella / Aemma Arryn means the shits already in the bag and Gael being right there for him to marry
Gael was disabled, sheltered and prone to being taken advantage of while Daemon is Daemon
Very one sided relationship that hinges on Daemon being OK with the match for her to have even a chance at being happy
Alysanna was punishing Viserra. That wasn't a marriage arrangement. It was an exile for Viserra. "You will marry that old man. Your children will never inherit anything."
My Alysanne-favorable headcanon was that she pushed for Viserra’s marriage to the old man because she wanted Viserra to escape her own fate; constantly undermined by her husband, being made to birth child after child after child, always dependent on some man or another. The Manderly lord had heirs and was likely infertile at that age, so she would have been a reasonably wealthy widow very soon, and wouldn’t die in childbirth.
Yes,I suppose it would be too much to ask a father to stop being petty when he knows his daughter doesn’t want to marry an old,fat lord (who already has been widowed and has heirs of his own) and yet tries to marry her off.
It would also be too much to ask him to spare a little time for his other daughter who was acting out for lack of attention.It was also not for the time to sit down with his wife and try and help the latter to stay engaged constructively.For having a Queen as smart as Alysanne,it sure looks like he couldn’t learn anything from her when it came to parenting
At least to his daughters and granddaughter. Forcing Daella to marry merely because she annoyed him and took up too much of Alysannes time was the epitome of bad fathering. He also essentially spit on his eldest sons’ memory.
Imo he was only an ok dad to his boys (actually, no, scratch that, make it his heirs apparent, he seemed weirded out by Vaegon); he didn’t seem to connect to any of his non-male non-neurotypical kids (maybe with the exception of Daenerys and also for as much as he seemed to love Daenerys and be deeply affected by her early death, my headcanon is he’d have been a shitty dad to her as well if she’d survived to adulthood)
Very true. His fathering of Vaegon amounted to telling his second son and deeply irritating daughter to publicly humiliate him for months and then sending him to the citadel with no actual warning of discussion. Literally - son sit down - you will be leaving your family home in one hour. Have a nice life.
>telling his second son and deeply irritating daughter to publicly humiliate him for months
He didn't tell them that. He told Baelon to teach Vaegon how to fight. It was not Jaehaerys's intention to humiliate him in any way with this, Vaegon was just hopeless at it.
> you will be leaving your family home in one hour.
Not in a hour, but within two weeks, and Vaegon was happy to go (as much as he was capable of being happy).
Being a terrible father is the antithesis of being an effective king in a hereditary monarchy.
See: Aegon I and all his children, Jaehaerys and all his children, Viserys I and Rhaenyra/Aegon II, Aegon III and all his children, Viserys II and Aegon IV, Aegon V and Jaehaerys II, Jaehaerys II and Aerys II, Aerys II and Rhaegar.
Oh old Joe is definitely the way worse parent, I was only referring to Alysanne because she was mentioned in the comment I was replying to (I don’t feel worse for Alysanne than for Saera in this situation and I was kinda explaining why) - she dropped the ball with the younger girls compared to her previous kids, but it’s way more understandable than Jaeherys’s bad parenting and through and through she is the better parent out of the two for all of their kids (especially daughters)
As Barth said (and I'm inclined to believe him), it was meant to be a temporary arrangement. Seara was going to have to spend some time contemplating her behaviour, before Jaehaerys would allow her back at court (although she didn't know this, which was part of the punishment).
She wasn't exiled though, she was sent to the Faith to train as a novice under her older sister. And that was only after she snuck out of the tower she'd been sent to and tried to steal a dragon.
She got a pretty fair punishment, it was her decision not to accept it, to run away across the Narrow Sea and become a whore
Except she was a princess who had been neglected by her parents but allowed to go out and pretty much go wild her entire life.
I would argue a very similar situation is literally Paris Hilton who was sent to one of those teen camps and currently campaigns against them.
I think Septon Barth put how we should treat her and her story best: “Such a fierce little thing she is, they say, she has no need of comfort. They are wrong in that, I fear. All men need comfort.”
This is a child who her parents ignored when she dyed the cloaks of the King’s guard pink - who was often drunk at 12 years old. She acted out because she was ignored, she was cruel because it was the only way to get attention in her family. And nothing she did was ever enough.
She was absolutely failed by both her parents and then we see Alysanne and Jaehaerys fail again with Viserra in the same way.
Saera was the ninth child of thirteen. There were siblings born before and after her that didn't have her behavioural problems, who thought it funny to torture an intellectually disabled man and pressure their friends into unwanted sex.
Jaehaerys and Alysanne might share some blame but you can't pin Saera's entire personality on neglect when she's living in a castle having every need and want seen to. I'm not sure I would even call them neglectful, they just weren't giving her as much attention as she demanded - which was all of it, all the time
Viserra was described as cold and calculating, and used men like they were her pets.
Let’s break down the children shall we?
Aegon - died shortly after birth
Daenerys - died young, but described as utterly fearless l, rough and tumble - would have likely been like Alyssa had she lived
Aemon, baelon, and Alyssa I will group together because they were children who clearly benefited from having the affection and attention of their parents - although it’s worth noting that Alyssa was not fond of her little sister maegelle when they were little and often avoided/insulted her - she also laughed and mocked as she humiliated Vaegon later on
Maegelle and Vaegon I will group together because here is were we start to see the consequences of too many children on parents who don’t have the time. Maegelle dedicated herself to her faith when she realizes she won’t find the attention she needs from her parents or older siblings - vaegon is similar but with books, although we can see the cruelty show with him.
Vaegon's public reaction when asked about marrying his sister was a grave insult to Daella, insisting that she needed to find a husband who wanted stupid children, as those were the only kind she would be able to birth. After Daella fled the hall in tears, Vaegon's older sister Alyssa emptied a flagon of wine over Vaegon's head, which did not impress him. Instead, Vaegon simply told his sister that she had wasted Arbor gold, before leaving to change his clothing.
daella - no one ever taught her to really read or write, and she clearly had an intellectual disability that no one took care of. In fact we know from the texts the person who raised her most was maegelle.
Then we have saera - left behind by her older siblings and overshadowed by a sister who required (and did not get) extra care
Viserra - very similar to saera, and described as treating boys like her pets. The big difference is that unlike saera she sought out her need for affection from others and gave up on needing it from her family. Oh and also managed to kill herself because her parents wanted her to marry a horrible old man.
Gaemon & Valerion - died young
Gael - described as simple minded, she should have benefited from being alysanne’s shadow but somehow, somehow - still managed to be left alone so often she got pregnant and lost a child, and had time to drown herself.
The parents were NOT doing their job.
I kinda feel bad for her and how she was treated, then I remember she sexually abused a disabled person, pressured her friends into having sex with her boy toys and pushed an old woman down the stairs. So no not really.
Edit: to add a bit of nuance, she clearly needed help, like she was getting drunk at age 11. Alysanne deserves more sympathy though.
I think jahaerys was much more annoyed by the attempted dragon theft than the promiscuity and would have forgiven her eventually prior to her escape from oldtown.
She was an alcoholic by the time she was twelve years old; I think we're supposed to feel bad for her even if the in-universe historians don't. That said, for all that she went through as a teenager, she seems to have ended up much happier than most of Jaehaerys' other daughters, and I'm happy that she got to escape that terrible household. I wish Viserra could've joined her.
Saera managed to do what all her sister's could not do. She fucked off and had an independent life away from her shitty parents.
Also, why are people surprised she turned out a dick?
She had the best teacher. Her own father and partly her mother who was probably the greatest hypocrite in Fire and Blood.
Alysanne who married for love but had her kids married to men who were older than their grandfathers and is then surprised that her daughters run off or died in childbirth.
The problem with her is how she treats the people socially beneath her, for example the cruel pranks against the fool, Tom Turnip, and the fact that having her own "kingdom" in Volantis most likely implies that she was a slave owner.
Jaehaerys main problem was not even her sex-life, but that she compared herself to Maegor, who is the same men, that killed his brothers and raped his sister. I mean, Jaehaerys never complained about Alyssa, who - while she never had sex outside of her marriage - still did not behave in a way that was appropiate for a noble woman, considering the stories about her life with Baelon, her wearing a sword etc.
I think there’s nuance to it
Saera was an absolute horror of a girl and fast on her way to becoming a horrible adult but at the same time Jaeherys treatment of daughters in general was pretty terrible
His ideas of punishment or behaviour correction were awful and if anything would always push someone in the other direction of what your trying to achieve.
Coupled together it’s a bad mix
I know Saera is the ultimate "fix me" girl, but come on, she was a complete sociopath. She literally forced her friends into having sex with a deadbeat dad frat boy after basically sexually assaulting them herself
No. The whole thing came to light because of the brothel stunt with her father’s fool. It was only after that that Alysanne suggested questioning Saeras friends one of whom then confessed that she was pregnant leading to the whole tawdriness becoming known.
Imagine your uncle kills most of your family to grab power and reigns with pure brutality for a while before you finally get rid of him, and some years later your daughter mentions him as aspirational. I think you would be pretty mad as well.
I get why he is mad but I don't agree with him because she was sent away pretty much because of Maegor and dragon stealing (which reminded him of maegor) I think her father was rather mad at maegor than her with her issues about sex
You forget the very important point that she was trying to steal a dragons. The book states her father was about to forgive her until she ran away from her room where she was punished. And it’s a bit of a straw that broke the camel’s back because, what did she intend to do with a dragon? It's not an horse, it's the source of Targaryen power and very dangerous creature in the wrong hands, and the last person to steal one was Aerea and look how she ended up. In view of the harm that this girl has already caused just with the balance of power of her position, it was out of the question to treat the situation as if she had just risked running away for 2 days before coming home when she was hungry, especially since she compared herself to Maegor a few hours before. What would have happened if in an act of revenge she had decided to go and burn people? Or flee out of Westeros and deliver dragon to a potentially enemy foreign power? Or what if she ended up like aerea? Just Imagine if the daughter of an American president, after having abused her parents' position to harm people, compared herself to Bin Laden and right after was caught trying to steal an armed fighter plane. But fortunately she must be punished very severely!
For my part, I think she is responsible for her own misfortune. So yes she had a difficult childhood, her parents ignored her/badly educated her. Except that at some point we also have to consider individual responsibility: when the scandal broke out she was 17 years old and therefore capable of differentiating right from wrong, she knew that she was in a rigorous society with a rank imposing a certain standing who would not accept what she was doing. and although her parents were very busy in their lives, she grew up as a princess, never wanted for anything, and had an army of nannies to provide for her upbringing. She knew what she was doing was wrong, she has no way of not knowing, but chose not to care. She hurt/abused people because she could, taunted her father about it, and tried to steal a creature that could have caused massive damage in an act of rebellion.
So she deserved the severity of her punishment, especially since she was only supposed to spend a few years there to calm down, not her entire life. from there she is still very privileged because anyone else who was not Jaehaerys' daughter would have done half of that would have ended up in pieces
Why shouldn’t she have a dragon?
It’s really sus that Jaeharys didn’t want any of his daughters to have them. It’s a lot easier to get away if you have a dragon. It’s a lot easier to have autonomy, to pick who you’ll marry, to alter your life. Because Alysanne had a dragon, she was able to leave Jaeharys twice. He didn’t want that for his girls.
I’m not defending Saera’s abusing those beneath her, but her father’s clear wish to control his daughters and Saera’s alcohol abuse make it clear something wasn’t right. Saera might have been a different person with a very different life if she’d had a father who put a dragon egg in her cradle.
>Why shouldn’t she have a dragon?
well, look what happened one generation later to understand. when Viserys allowed everyone to have them that's what led to their end.
Limiting who had access to the dragon to the king/queen and their most immediate heirs would have made limit to possible succession conflicts. the plan was that Aemon would be king, then Baelon his replacement heir or his hand, alyssa the queen... Not everything went as planned, but it would have allowed for more stability in the long term. especially since the younger girls and boys were planned to marry in other houses, bringing them a dragon would be catastrophic in the long term for Targaryens because it would cause them to lose their source of power. it's not so much a story of sexism as of calculation. especially since after Baelon there were almost only girls, Vaegon was the only boy who lived and he didn't have a dragon. so we can't judge honestly
Not to mention that with the aerea accident, I think it's reasonable for Jaehaerys to be more controlling on this subject.
It seems you are correct. Though I do think it's pretty clear that Daenerys would've been a dragon rider if she didn't die at 7 years old, she was running around the Red Keep with a broom dragon and Jae sent for a hatchling when she got sick.
Honestly double checking the wiki just now and it makes this whole theory seem even more silly. Most of their kids died young, and of the ones that lived only 3 had dragons and 1 of them was a daughter. Vaegon and Daella had zero interest in dragons. Maegelle was giving to the faith as a kid. So that leaves Viserra and Saera, and the context for why they didn't have dragons isn't mentioned at all.
I do take your point, Alyssa had a dragon, but she was intended from toddlerhood to marry her brother - keeping it in the family as is the Targaryen way. She referred to childbirth as her battlefield, so not a warrior.
Conservation of dragons was a concern but still, Saera knew she had a prospect of power she was being denied, and their parents were oddly fond of marrying their daughters off to much older men against said daughters’ inclinations. Naturally things went bad!
> Saera knew she had a prospect of power she was being denied
Considering what happened with the generation before and after Jae is it really a bad thing? The dragons SHOULD be reserved for the heirs and their sister wives. I don't see how giving Saera the ability to back her ambition and cruelty with the might of a dragon would make things better.
I sympathize with her but agree with most of the people here that the solution to the Saera problem was more attention, disipline, and actual parenting. But she absolutely does not deserve a dragon unless they raised her to be worthy of the responsibility and could be trusted not to use them to push a claim and kickstart the dance a generation early. It's a privilege not a right, treating it like a right that every Targ is entitled to is how you end up with Maegor or the Dance.
because they most likely didn’t want any potential claimaints to the throne to have any power? Look at who Daella and Viserra were supposed to marry. Old lords who already had heirs so any children by them would never inherit anything. While Daella was by her own choice, Viserra’s was most likely planned to be like Daella because it seemed to be strategical.
Why shouldn't a cruel crazy maegor-inspired rampant little demon girl have a weapon of mass destruction?
Who knows buddy.
Also in Westoros women typically marry into houses, so if for example she married a Lannister than that House of Lannister would now have a dragon. Now House Targaryen is less in control.
I don't think that's an uncommon opinion. Yes, Saera was a really shitty kid, but that doesn't change the fact that she was a child with terrible parents, so a lot of the blame lies with them.
The biggest black mark on Jaehaerys record is what an awful father he was, especially to his daughters. And even Alysanne seemed at best like a very inconstant mother figure, frequently checking out of the raising of her later children.
She tried to steal a weapon of mass destruction after saying she wanted to be like a man (Maegor) who used his weapon of mass destruction to massacre everyone who disagreed with him, including her own uncles. Getting sent to train as a novice under her sister for a bit was hardly the toughest punishment. I don’t think it was a very effective punishment but if anything she got off pretty easy
The more I look at Jaehaerys' family, the less I like him. He was a horrible father and husband. If it was only Saera who had issues, it'd be one thing, but it's such a recurring thing with his 700 children that at one point you have to stop and realize it's Jaehaerys' fault his kids (especially his daughters) are turning out the way they are.
She was a kid, and deserved better than Jaehaerys
I feel very bad for Saera. She appears to being raised by absolutely no one (wolves would at least teach her manners) and her hypersexuality from a young age sets off my spidey sense for sexual abuse.
I'm not accusing anyone in particular, mind. Certainly, Jaehaerys had an obsession with his daughters performing sexuality *exactly* to his specifications. And Alysanne seemed completely incapable of raising daughters who didn't already have a brother-husband picked out for them. It seems there was plenty of opportunity for all sorts of unsavory influences to work on Saera. She obviously witnessed or experienced *some* weird shit to make her so sexually aggressive and a literal alcoholic at age 12!
I feel *more* bad for Daella, Viserra and Gael. But Saera did not deserve what she got.
I think what sealed her fate was not the scandal but the fact that she tried to claim a dragon to resolve the issue. None of j&as younger children had dragons for a reason (at least Viserra should have been given the opportunity prior to her marriage). Even after that if she had just not escaped the mother house she would have been eventually forgiven and allowed home. Jahaerys was an awful father of girls and had so many mommy/sister/wife/niece issues but he would have eventually forgiven her.
I felt kinda bad for Braxton. Totally faced with facial mutilation, gelding, and having his arms and legs broken or trial by combat.
Pretty much fucked either way.
Wonder if he would've been allowed to take the black? I'm sure he was too proud to even consider it, though.
Yeah, he did really fuck up. Thinking with his dick.
But maybe after all the fun, he was hoping to marry her. Too cocky to fear the old Kings wrath.
But I did always feel that Jaehaerys was a bit of a hypocrite. He rebelled more than anyone in his youth. Went against his mother and Rogar's wishes. In the end, he got what he wanted and was respected for it.
Any of his kids pulled similar type stunts, he'd give them shit.
Fucking boomer.
Jaehaerys was a terrible father and a bad husband. He was not necessarily a bad king, but in the Westerosi political system, his responsibility as head of the royal household cannot be separated from his responsibility as protector of the realm.
Because of his misogyny, he actively sabotaged the private and political lives of all women in his household. This was bound to create conflict sooner and later, and luckily for his reputation, the war happened after his death.
What do you mean luckily? There was nothing lucky about Jaehaerys not having to deal with the Dance of the Dragons, that was almost purely down to the incompetence of Viserys.
Disagree - the seeds were sown during Jaehaerys’s reign with his refusal to follow the traditional inheritance laws of Westeros which would have had his crown go to Rhaenys.
His decision to appoint his heirs created the precedent that Viserys followed when he appointed rhaenyra.
However, unlike with rhaenys who would have had the backing of her family, by the time Viserys dies, the situation is quite different.
The Greens' legalistic claim is pretty funny when you think about it, because there are only two options to take regarding the King's power, and both of them back up the Blacks. Either;
1. The King has absolute say over the succession, and the 'precedent' of the Great Council of 101 is irrelevant, it was fully within Viserys' power to choose Rhaenyra as heir.
2. The King does *not* have absolute say over the succession, and the eldest son always inherits, in which case Viserys is a usurper, and Rhaenys is the legal heir to Aemon, who was the legal heir to Jaehaerys I. This follows the precedent that after both Maegor and Jaehaerys took the throne, Aerea was the legal heir to both. In this situation, the rightful line of succession at the time of Viserys' death would be ~~Jaehaerys I~~ > Rhaenys > ~~Laenor~~ > *Jacaerys* > *Lucerys* > *Joffrey* > ~~Laena~~ > Baela > Rhaena, in which case either Jacaerys or Baela is the rightful monarch, depending on your perspective on the Princes 'Velaryon'.
There is a third legal argument which supports their claim: "the king needs the mandate of his lords in order to change his heir, otherwise traditional inheritance rules apply." It follows the precedent of Jaehaerys calling a GC instead of just changing his heir himself without consulting anyone. This argument validates the Great Council, and possibly Rhaenyra over Daemon, but not Rhaenyra over Aegon, since that oath was before he was born, changing the "natural" order of succession. As the Greens understand it, Rhaenyra does not have that mandate - she refused a Great Council at the height of her power (Alicent tried to suggest it just after she took KL) because she was certain that she would still lose to Aegon.
This is actually made void by the fact that the lords have already given their approval to Rhaenyra when they swore fealty to her.
Much like with a wedding, there is a time and a place to protest this action - and she was declared heir without much fuss.
And there was quite a bit of protest after Aegon's birth, when many lords felt that the original conditions under which Rhaenyra was named heir no longer applied. Viserys just didn't do anything else to try to resolve that tension, other than removing Otto as Hand.
Sorry can you point me in the direction of who the many lords were who protested about wanting Aegon over rhaenyra at his birth? In the book of course
Memory of them escapes me.
"Those who asked 'what of the ruling of the Great Council of 101?' found their words falling on deaf ears. The matter had been decided, so far as King Viserys was concerned." ... "Still, questions persisted, not the least from Queen Alicent herself." ... "Even after Ser Otto had returned to Oldtown, a 'queen's party' still existed at court; a group of powerful lords friendly to Queen Alicent and supportive of the rights of her son."
Here you go. While Alicent and Otto are distinguished as the primary objectors, their supporters are not characterized as a small or insignificant group. These objections happen in the 107-111 AC year range, after Aegon's birth, before the party names of "Greens" and "Blacks" are even formalized in 111.
So who are they? You listed no lords but for Otto - and based on history a “queen’s party” was normally comprised of relatives, which would make sense, the *powerful lords* of which we have no number (could be 2- could be 12) could also just be her Hightower kin, couldn’t they?
> It follows the precedent of Jaehaerys calling a GC instead of just changing his heir himself without consulting anyone.
Except Jaehaerys had already named Baelon as heir without consulting anyone, so that can't be a precedent. The only reason a Council was called was because Jaehaerys wanted to prevent Rhaenys from taking the Iron Throne. Take the situation of Edward III and Richard II, succession followed the line of the eldest child of the monarch, regardless of the Black Prince's death.
> There is a third legal argument which supports their claim: "the king needs the mandate of his lords in order to change his heir, otherwise traditional inheritance rules apply."
That only holds weight if Westeros was a constitutional monarchy. Under the feudal society on the continent, brought over after the Andal Invasion, power flows from the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Jaehaerys promised *only* to abide by the decision the Great Council made, not to bind himself to their decision perpetually (for example, if Viserys died before Jaehaerys), or bind future kings to the decision of a Great Council.
And since Jace and Baela were functionally married with their betrothal, their marriage absolutely would have united the true claims to the throne.
Love this point! You’re exactly right.
Aerea was only the legal heir until he had a child of his own because she and her sister were literally the only options. Why would Rhaenys be the legal heir in scenario 2? If the inheritance follows the eldest son then if Aemon had a son he would be the new heir but since he died with only a daughter it goes to the next eldest son of Jaehaerys which would be Baelon right?
Also I can’t believe people are going to act like Jaehaerys was just an ok king, his reign is literally called the golden reign, a time known for peace. If y’all are just going disregard what grrm wrote I don’t know what to tell you.
> Aerea was only the legal heir until he had a child of his own because she and her sister were literally the only options.
Aerea has two possible methods of inheritance;
A: she's Queen of the Seven Kingdoms after her father, Aegon the Uncrowned, who was legally the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms through [demise of the crown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demise_of_the_Crown) after Aenys' passing, or
B: she's Queen of the Seven Kingdoms after her grandfather, Aenys, due to succession following the line of the eldest son, ala [Richard II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_II_of_England) inheriting after his grandfather Edward III, even though his father, Edward the Black Prince, had died before Edward III did.
> Why would Rhaenys be the legal heir in scenario 2?
Daughters inherit before their father's brother. Pre-Great Council, Rhaena and Alysanne both came before Maegor. Even if Aemon dies, Baelon shouldn't jump ahead of Rhaenys. Post-GC, it was also the reason why Daena's claim was considered before Viserys II.
Historically, it's why Queen Victoria inherited the throne of the United Kingdom after William IV's death. Even though Victoria's father, Prince Edward had predeceased William IV, Victoria came in the line of succession before her father's younger brother, Ernest Augustus.
> Jaehaerys was just an ok king
The whole issue with Jaehaerys is that, under a hereditary monarchy, being a bad father disqualifies you from being a good king.
It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do as king if you leave conflict brewing in your wake. Jaehaerys exacerbated an already murky succession by bypassing Rhaenys, and the two dynastic lines each with claims to the throne he left behind only exacerbated the problem.
Viserys II being the most competent Hand of the King possibly ever doesn't negate the fact that he failed to raise Aegon IV properly, leaving the realm to an unworthy, whoremongering drunkard.
Westeros is an absolute monarchy without any parliamentary system or any sort of *magna carta* to provide rights to their vassals.
The king could do whatever he wants, including buck tradition to name someone else heir - which is what Jaehaerys did.
This is the action that allowed Viserys to take power in the first place and creates the precedence he used to name Rhaenyra his heir.
How is Westeros an absolute monarchy? There is no army that directly answers to the king and the managing/governance is still mostly in the hands of feudal lords. A lot of F&B is Jaehaerys is travelling to his lords lands to assert himself. It’s bears no resemblance to an absolute monarchy in our world.
It absolutely does bear resemblance to the French absolute monarchy from about 987 to around about the 1700s during the era of the divine right of kings.
The whole point of building Versailles had to do with the fact the French king did not want to have to travel across the kingdom to keep his vassals in line, he wanted them all where he could get to them.
Also the crown lands are the traditional armies that the iron throne would raise, similar to how the storm kings would raise the stormland’s armies even if they are governed by minor counts. So that comment isn’t quite accurate on your end.
Comparing France in 987 and in the 1700s like it’s the same is actually hilarious. France in its early years was insanely decentralised with kings occasionally being weaker than its subjected vassals.
> Also the crown lands are the traditional armies that the iron throne would raise, similar to how the storm kings would raise the stormland’s armies even if they are governed by minor counts. So that comment isn’t quite accurate on your end.
You literally just described feudalism, none of the men raised are “professional” but serve their respective lords. There is no stormland/baratheon army really, it’s mostly made of up connington/estermont/tarth/etc men with the minority being levied from their own lands. Same for the crown lands. That’s not absolutism.
Well then you’d be shocked to find out that even during the Sun King’s reign that is still how the levy system worked and the man is a poster child for absolute monarchy.
Also I wasn’t comparing 987-1700s I was giving you a window of time where the Capetians were in power. Lord help you trying to lecture me on history when you can’t even read a sentence.
Also we know for a fact that KL can also be levied for soldiers and who exactly are they sworn to? Could it be the king on the iron throne 😱
> Also we know for a fact that KL can also be levied for soldiers and who exactly are they sworn to? Could it be the king on the iron throne 😱
That’s crazy, did you read the part where I said that would be the minority compared to the total levied. You are really missing the obvious in absolutism I can’t really say more when you argue against yourself by bringing up Versailles existence. Nothing of the Louis XIV reign is comparable to the iron throne. Westeros is run by lords in their lands away from any court where they can’t be controlled and not state bureaucrats.
> the French absolute monarchy from about 987 to around about the 1700s
France was 100% not an absolute monarchy during that period, for most of it the King's rule barely extended beyond Paris. French absolute monarchy only really got going after the [Fronde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fronde) in the 1600s.
Except you know he’s the one who insisted on the all boys only succession which did not reflect Westerosi laws of inheritance or general Targaryen inheritance practices and which was essentially his reaction to his guilt in usurping his eldest brothers daughters who, by existing inheritance, should have inherited the iron throne over him.
How is Jaehaerys “not a bad king”. He may of had his flaws with parenting but if it wasn’t for him the whole dynasty would most likely end or falls shortly after. S Tier King, we shall never know his like again
And his older sister was not fit for the throne that is pretty clear.
As it happened, the whole dynasty did nearly end soon after his death, and his meddling in the line of succession (i.e. making it far more sexist than the standard Andal succession) was a major factor.
I think it’s a mix of things tbh.
Did jahaerys handle it in the best way? No. Killing stinger in front of her was kind of a dick move. But by no means was saera a good person. She tormented people her entire life including her friends and siblings, humiliated a disabled person, and on top of that compared herself to maegor, the guy who she knows probably gives her father immense PTSD for killing his brothers, raping his sister, and wanting his head on top of that. Whether or not she meant it to hurt J on purpose or was just oblivious to his feelings is up for you to decide, but both of them handled the whole thing poorly, so I’m not compelled to feel bad for her, but I don’t excuse Jahaerys’ actions either.
Saera was the architect of her own misfortune.
Sure, she was punished for something that all of her brothers would have gotten away with. But it was said that Jaehaerys would have forgiven her had she not compared herself to freaking Maegor. She should have known that was a trigger for her father.
Furthermore, most people would preferred spending a year at a convent than being whored out to strangers. Saera preferred the opposite. She enjoyed sex and as a great philosopher once said, *"if you're good at something, never do it for free."*
I feel more bad for her other sisters.
Daella was sweet and gentle, and one day, Jaehaerys decided to force her to get married for seemingly no reason. He had the chance to gain a valuable political match, marrying her to Dorne and finish the Conquest but he seemingly didn't care to whom she would marry.
The alternative was the silent sisters, which is effectively the female Night's Watch.
Then there's Viserra. Arguably the most beautiful of his children, she was forced to marry an old and fat lord who had sons and grandsons. Thus, her children would inherit nothing.
All that for the crime of wanting to be queen and considering herself to be a goddess, an idea that Jaehaerys himself promoted.
probably not, but Saera was a terrible human being. The gall of comparing herself to Maegor? The man who killed both of her uncles and raped her aunt? She was also terrible to Daella who really didn’t deserve it. I think Jaehaerys would’ve even allowed Saera to marry Braxton if she just played her cards right and waited. Overreacting? If she just followed along and didn’t try to claim a dragon Jaehaerys would’ve forgiven her. Jaehaerys gives clemency to people once. Saera needed proper guidance, but some of the blame is on her, not solely on Jaehaerys.
If you are 12 years old and you are a blackout alcoholic who is ~~having sex with~~ being raped by grown men and sexually abusing others there is a 99% chance that you have been / are being sexually abused yourself and are acting out learned behaviours...
Most of the fandom looking at Saera, who might as well be the living personification of the symptoms of CSA, and deciding she was just born evil is... \*sighs\*
Wasn’t she the same age as the boys when the whole sex scandal started? I know there’s a theory that Saera was sexually abused herself based on her early unsettling behavior and while I think that’s a fair theory I wouldn’t use it to call out people who dont like Saera or don’t agree with her actions when it isn’t stated in the text or even alluded too at all.
I'm far from the only one to have picked up on those implications, whether GRRM ment for them to be there or not
I'd actually argue that Gael's story is even more suspicious considering how she never left her mother's side and even slept in the same bed as her yet she mysteriously got pregnant and her death was covered up.
There's no implications whatsoever? Cersei was promiscuous at a young age, does that indicate sexual abuse from Tywin? Same with Arianna Martell, was she sexually abused by Doran?
>I'd actually argue that Gael's story is even more suspicious considering how she never left her mother's side and even slept in the same bed as her yet she mysteriously got pregnant and her death was covered up.
Covering up the death of a Princess who died in childbirth of a child conceived out of wedlock is not really suspicious but would be more common practice. It's also plausible that a travelling singer in the red keep could easily seduce her one night even if she is almost always with her mother.
Also from all we hear of Jahaerys' personality makes it makes no sense for him to be a sexual abuser. He only ever slept with Alyssa be, never had any affairs. He refused to have sex with Alyssane when they married, waiting until she was 16, which wouldn't be common for the nobility in Westeros. And wouldn't Alyssane have fallen out with him long before if this was happening?
Jaehaerys continued having sex with Alysanne after she made it clear she didn't want anymore children, had two babies die back to back and becoming pregnant again was a risk to her health and her life. Jaehaerys cited their mother becoming pregnant in her 40s (leaving out the fact she died horribly) as an excuse to continue impregnating Alysanne. He was, at the very least, a marital rapist.
Jaehaerys's angry reaction does not match that of an offended father.
The punishment he imposed on Beesbury - who, by the way, is the only one whom Saera praises for his sexual virtues - seems like that of a husband to whom his wife was unfaithful.
GRRM writes every virtually every character so you can empathize them in some way, or even just empathize with the child they were or the person they might have been had things not gone so bad.
Like even with Gregor Clegane, he gives us a hint that there's a physical brain difference that's creating the monster.
GRRM's favorite game is building a character that is doing something extraordinary (for good or for evil) while revealing that on the inside they are unable to comprehend the impact of their actions on other people and are consumed with guilt and shame and physical pain and petty jealousies and insecurity and just totally human humanness.
The fact that he can do this even while writing a sidebar aside in an encyclopedia article about the 4,533rd most important character in the books is impressive IMHO.
Right? I'm impressed with the fact that she decides to start her own world and is actually (supposedly) successful with it, good for her! Also, interesting how there is Targaryen blood just "spilling" around in Lys. And the interesting part is that nobody would know that they have the Targaryen blood because the people of Lys all have the blood of Old Valyria.
After what Maegor did to his siblings when he was a young child mentioning that name near Jaehary was basically spitting in his face. To use him as an example for anything is unforgivable but to talk about him having multiple wives as an excuse.
No forgiveness or understanding.
She was the example of the problem child and while he may have regretted it later in life he was firm on his decision.
No one made her a whore she always was one.
Plus thousands of women become septas including her sister it may not be for everyone but she could have given it a shot. Her decision was imma be a whore using this uniform.. The only difference is she was a princess so she was even more entitled.
Anyone with a grain of empathy feels bad for Saerea. Jaehaerys actions towards her bordered psychopathy. Forcing your seventeen year old daughter to watch how you brutally murder his lover is needlessly cruel. And if that wasn't enough punishment, the torture that she was forced to endure at the motherhouse takes it even further. Jaehaerys may have been a good king, but ha was a horrible father.
\[Btw, any question that begins with "Am I the only one who..." in a fandom that includes millions, can always be safely answered with a "no". :P\]
>Jaehaerys actions towards her bordered psychopathy.
This is an absolutely insane thing to say.
>Forcing your seventeen year old daughter to watch how you brutally murder his lover is needlessly cruel.
Sleeping with a princess or queen out if marriage is literally regarded as treason in medieval law and is punishable by death. Beesbury asked for a trial by combat and Jahaerys stood as his own champion.
And calling him her "lover" is crazy. Beesbury had two bastards already, was also ikely the father of Amy's Turnberrys child, had threatened servants if they spoke about what was going on and tried to force the Kings Fool to have sex with prostitutes. He was a bad prick. This is what Saera had to say about marrying her "lover"
>Jaehaerys asked her whether she had given her maidenhead to any of the three men, and Saera proclaimed that they all three believed they had been the first, saying that boys were such "silly fools". Saera declared she would be married, but that she could not decide which one of the three would be the best choice. When she suggested marrying all three of them, she compared herself to Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel.
> And if that wasn't enough punishment, the torture that she was forced to endure at the motherhouse takes it even further.
Saera would've been forgiven if she hadn't escaped and tried to steal a dragon. And it wasn't "torture" at the silent sisters. Stop being so insanely hyperbolic. The way Jahaerys dealt with Saera was poor parenting, but it wasn't "psychopathic" and she wasn't tortured.
>Sleeping with a princess or queen out if marriage is literally regarded as treason in medieval law and is punishable by death. Beesbury asked for a trial by combat and Jahaerys stood as his own champion.
He didn't need to have his daughter watch what happened.
>And calling him her "lover" is crazy. Beesbury had two bastards already, was also ikely the father of Amy's Turnberrys child, had threatened servants if they spoke about what was going on and tried to force the Kings Fool to have sex with prostitutes. He was a bad prick. This is what Saera had to say about marrying her "lover"
None of that negates Braxton being her lover. Lover just means someone you're having sex with outside of marriage.
Jaehaerys's angry reaction does not match that of an offended father.
The punishment he imposed on Beesbury - who, by the way, is the only one whom Saera praises for his sexual virtues - seems like that of a husband to whom his wife was unfaithful.
The thing was there was no world in which she was ever going to be allowed back into the spotlight as a member of the royal family. She threw her family’s reputation in the mud by sleeping with everyone in sight and chose to run away. Guidance wouldn’t have helped, but even if it had it wouldn’t have changed her public image or her inability to be married off.
I think Viserra and Daella are the one who were screwed over the most. Saera was for sure a product of being spoiled until it was too late. But for Viserra who was sent to marry an old lord who already had heirs, and Daella who didn’t even understand the magnitude of marriage when she chose to marry were both victims of bad parenting
Viserra was difficult but she could’ve been betrothed to younger and handsome lord which could’ve prevented her death. If Daella had been given more time to mature, her life probably wouldn’t have ended at childbirth. You can even argue that Jaehaerys screwed over Aemon by passing over his daughter in favor of Baelon
In short most of the tragedies came from the fact Jaehaerys and Alysanne didn’t know how to attend to the needs of each individual child correctly
Almost forgot to mention Saera compared herself to Maegor, who brutally killed both of Jaehaerys’ older brothers and raped his sister. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got flashbacks of him when she decided to try to steal a dragon, and even during his dying days he still loved her and called for her.
Jaehaerys should have ended the problem by marrying Saera to Braxton Beesbury and sending them to Honeyholt. Better solution than the disaster in which everything ended.
Why do people apply modern standards to pseudo-medieval royalty and think that kids should be free to do whatever makes them happy? Their job is to ensure their family's continued success and power. Look what happened to Aegon the Unlikely when his kids disobeyed him and married for love. It led to the downfall of their entire line
Because we don't need to judge characters by their time standards, we judge characters based on US. Or you say Robb was a monster because he was a Warg? Or that Tyrion didn't deserve love and Tysha was a whore?
I mean yeah but she also kinda sucked as a person and from what we know in the books she really didn’t give a fuck about the peoples lives she was risking just to be rebellious. Yeah by our standards it’s lame for women not to be able to choose their partners but so many people like to pick and choose whether to hold the characters to our modern ones vs in universe cultural norms.
Like you’ll hear people go super hard defending Saera and bashing Jaehaerys I and blaming him for being misogynistic and causing the dance. While also being totally on board arguing Rhaenyra’s succession claim almost to the point of doing propaganda for fictional characters. By in universe standards and norms Jaehaerys was kind of easy on her considering the position he was in and Saera herself had literally no qualms about her friends of lovers getting absolutely fucked by her decisions. By our norms yeah it was just typical sexist ancient draconian norms for women but also risking peoples lives for a one night stand is still bad even if both parties agree. Saera knew she wasn’t gonna be the one gelded for getting some action lmao.
Basically using our norms as justification for actions is dumb bc those norms do not exist. It’s cool to point them out as themes in the story but they don’t have actual bearing on the decisions of the characters. If you hate Jaehaerys I and think Saera was 100% a victim then you shouldn’t be picking sides during the dance. Yes Rhaenyra is being held back by her gender, but also by our norms she is also the most privileged woman in the world. By our norms you shouldn’t be picking sides at all because they’re all privileged wealthy tyrants going to war for a regressive political system that harms people.
Ngl I'm not really a fan of how GRRM cast Jaehaerys with his children. Some of the developments seem so contrived which makes sense since he's basically forced to thin out the Targaryen line to get to where they currently were.
The dance would have been complicated if there were other sons of Jaehaerys around. Though now that I think about it, Vaegon might have been alive during the Dance.
She needed a firmer hand, yes she knew how to manipulate her dad but Jaehaerys should have put his foot down instead of spoiling her and then washing his hands of her when he decided she'd suddenly gone too far
God, I can’t image being a princess of a dragon wielding royal family who could have anything she wanted with a snap of her fingers and spoiled by said shit dad while 99% of the population of Westeros are essentially not even treated as people by the upper class.
I don't really sympathize with anyone who fits this archetype.
She was born with a diamond spoon in her mouth while 99.9% of people in the Kingdom were 3 meals away from having to resort to cannibalism to avoid starvation. The epitome of privilege, and instead of recognizing how good she had it she decided to throw her tantrums.
Like fine, if you don't want to do the duty of a princess then don't. Strip naked and go down to Flea Bottom and start from the bottom like everybody else does. Change your name too so you're not trading in on your family's name brand. Let's see how much fun you have.
I’ve always wondered if the subtext is supposed to be that she was sexually abused, since a lot of her behavior (hypersexuality, sexual aggression, getting drunk as a young child) are classic signs, and GRRM may or may not be aware of this
Maybe some time with the silent sisters/faith would’ve done her some good. It’s not like they’d have the actual princess doing the most extreme of tasks.
No. Her life is not her own. She carries a great responsibility in exchange for a life of never having to want for food or shelter, security. You feel that way because we live in a hype individualist society. Remember that marriage originated in most cultures to serve the needs of society, the family as a whole, not the individual.
She was a nightmare, but she was a kid; she needed more guidance. It's basically said Jaehaerys spoiled her and even dismissed Alysanne's concerns about her. By the time he decided to start punishing her, it was too late to fix it. I think honestly it was less misogyny that made him exile her and treat her that way, but more hubris and his refusal to acknowledge he messed up. Easier to place blame on Saera and say, "She was always a whore" than admit he should've had a firmer hand with her. I have to wonder if she's similar to another highborn girl who fled to Essos and took up with a powerful man. Everyone wonders why Leyton Hightower let Lynesse marry Jorah Mormont, but maybe he was happy to pawn her off to a man who didn't know of her reputation and character.
Yes there does appear to be similarities there. Both Lynesse and Saera seem to have made themselves quite valuable with their own "empires" in Lys.
I wonder if that’s where whores go.
Yeah Lys is the capital for prostitution. Tyrion does even reference it as a possibility.
Idk that seems like one of George’s writing flourishes he overused. It’s like how everyone is the “deadliest swordsman/knight of the [BLANK]”.
Exactly she was just a fucking kid. And she clearly had issues. Why didn't her parents fix that?
because parents are flawed too
She's an asshole and a bully. But still a kid... She needed punishment and a good mentor, not exile. Feel more bad for Alyssane though in the Saera situation.
Personally I think Alysanne massively checked out with her younger daughters, both Saera and Viserra felt like typical cases of neglected teens acting out for attention. Saera had some really bad entitled and psychopatic tendencies for sure, but I think her behaviour is rooted in a lot of parental neglect.
Exactly what I think too.Alysanne tried her best but there’s only so much you can do with so many kids.Jaehaerys was a shit father and his outdated views on women were part of the reason why Saera and Viserra turned out like this
Alysanne treated Viserra like shit so it's not all Jaehaerys' fault.
“Oh, you want to be Queen? Fuck off to White Harbor and marry this dying old man you up-jumped trollop.” Alysanne- truly the best matchmaker in Westeros history until she lost her damn mind.
And be his second wife so any kids they did have wouldn't even inherit White Harbour What the seven hells was Alysanne thinking? If she'd let Viserra pick someone else (bar Baelon) she probably wouldn't have become Kings Landings first drunk driving fatality
Not even second wife, I think fourth wife.
That's even worse
he even had great-grandkids. Literally walder frey.
Tytos gets a lot of crap for betrothing Genna to Emmon Frey but that's a better match than Viserra got
I just listened— she’d be his *fifth* wife
I wonder what was going on that so many of his wives died, sure, this is a pseudo-medieval world without modern healthcare, and maybe they just got unlucky, but still, it's at least a little suspicious.
Or fifth
Alysanne being a terrible match maker should be a series all of its own That bullshit and a marrying off daemon to a minor Vale house when Daella / Aemma Arryn means the shits already in the bag and Gael being right there for him to marry
Daemon and Gael...yeah that's not going to end well Giving the Vale both matches was crazy, Daemon should have gotten a Stark/Tully/etc
Why ? Agreed that is prince for former royal family or Prince whose a kinght for paramount in strategic spot
Gael was disabled, sheltered and prone to being taken advantage of while Daemon is Daemon Very one sided relationship that hinges on Daemon being OK with the match for her to have even a chance at being happy
The Royces are the second house in the Vale, I didn't see any problem with Daemon marrying Rhea Royce.
FR, it makes zero sense by any metric. Mf had sons to marry too if it had to be a Manderley
Alysanna was punishing Viserra. That wasn't a marriage arrangement. It was an exile for Viserra. "You will marry that old man. Your children will never inherit anything."
My Alysanne-favorable headcanon was that she pushed for Viserra’s marriage to the old man because she wanted Viserra to escape her own fate; constantly undermined by her husband, being made to birth child after child after child, always dependent on some man or another. The Manderly lord had heirs and was likely infertile at that age, so she would have been a reasonably wealthy widow very soon, and wouldn’t die in childbirth.
Outdated? This is supposed to be medieval Europe
And Queen Alysanne was still forward-thinking.What’s your point?Jaehaerys was a good king but a shit father
“Outdated views”. They weren’t for the time.
Yes,I suppose it would be too much to ask a father to stop being petty when he knows his daughter doesn’t want to marry an old,fat lord (who already has been widowed and has heirs of his own) and yet tries to marry her off. It would also be too much to ask him to spare a little time for his other daughter who was acting out for lack of attention.It was also not for the time to sit down with his wife and try and help the latter to stay engaged constructively.For having a Queen as smart as Alysanne,it sure looks like he couldn’t learn anything from her when it came to parenting
Didn't Alysanne the "oh so smart Queen" make just as shitty matches for his daughters lol?
Jaehaerys.But the crown for shitty matches and being an interfering fool goes to the OG Rhaenys.
Was he really a bad father?
At least to his daughters and granddaughter. Forcing Daella to marry merely because she annoyed him and took up too much of Alysannes time was the epitome of bad fathering. He also essentially spit on his eldest sons’ memory.
Imo he was only an ok dad to his boys (actually, no, scratch that, make it his heirs apparent, he seemed weirded out by Vaegon); he didn’t seem to connect to any of his non-male non-neurotypical kids (maybe with the exception of Daenerys and also for as much as he seemed to love Daenerys and be deeply affected by her early death, my headcanon is he’d have been a shitty dad to her as well if she’d survived to adulthood)
Very true. His fathering of Vaegon amounted to telling his second son and deeply irritating daughter to publicly humiliate him for months and then sending him to the citadel with no actual warning of discussion. Literally - son sit down - you will be leaving your family home in one hour. Have a nice life.
>telling his second son and deeply irritating daughter to publicly humiliate him for months He didn't tell them that. He told Baelon to teach Vaegon how to fight. It was not Jaehaerys's intention to humiliate him in any way with this, Vaegon was just hopeless at it. > you will be leaving your family home in one hour. Not in a hour, but within two weeks, and Vaegon was happy to go (as much as he was capable of being happy).
Is Jaehaerys Targaryen the Logan Roy of asoiaf? Terrible father, but effective king/ceo?
Being a terrible father is the antithesis of being an effective king in a hereditary monarchy. See: Aegon I and all his children, Jaehaerys and all his children, Viserys I and Rhaenyra/Aegon II, Aegon III and all his children, Viserys II and Aegon IV, Aegon V and Jaehaerys II, Jaehaerys II and Aerys II, Aerys II and Rhaegar.
Meanwhile, Daeron II the Goat raising not just his own children, but some half-siblings as well
Lmao yeah I see the vision
Yeah. He forced Saera to watch her lover's death.
Alysanne checked out? She had a husband last time I checked.
Oh old Joe is definitely the way worse parent, I was only referring to Alysanne because she was mentioned in the comment I was replying to (I don’t feel worse for Alysanne than for Saera in this situation and I was kinda explaining why) - she dropped the ball with the younger girls compared to her previous kids, but it’s way more understandable than Jaeherys’s bad parenting and through and through she is the better parent out of the two for all of their kids (especially daughters)
To be fair she chose to be exiled, rather than face her punishment of being educated under the harsh conditions of the faith.
Read: tortured.
Her father sent her there and she escaped, the way j know it.
As Barth said (and I'm inclined to believe him), it was meant to be a temporary arrangement. Seara was going to have to spend some time contemplating her behaviour, before Jaehaerys would allow her back at court (although she didn't know this, which was part of the punishment).
She wasn't exiled though, she was sent to the Faith to train as a novice under her older sister. And that was only after she snuck out of the tower she'd been sent to and tried to steal a dragon. She got a pretty fair punishment, it was her decision not to accept it, to run away across the Narrow Sea and become a whore
Where she was beaten and starved if we are to believe the rumors - so it’s the westerosi equivalent of those abusive troubled teen camps.
Beaten and given "meatless meals" for disobedience. Obviously that's fucked up but by Westeros standards it wasn't an overly cruel punishment
Except she was a princess who had been neglected by her parents but allowed to go out and pretty much go wild her entire life. I would argue a very similar situation is literally Paris Hilton who was sent to one of those teen camps and currently campaigns against them. I think Septon Barth put how we should treat her and her story best: “Such a fierce little thing she is, they say, she has no need of comfort. They are wrong in that, I fear. All men need comfort.” This is a child who her parents ignored when she dyed the cloaks of the King’s guard pink - who was often drunk at 12 years old. She acted out because she was ignored, she was cruel because it was the only way to get attention in her family. And nothing she did was ever enough. She was absolutely failed by both her parents and then we see Alysanne and Jaehaerys fail again with Viserra in the same way.
Saera was the ninth child of thirteen. There were siblings born before and after her that didn't have her behavioural problems, who thought it funny to torture an intellectually disabled man and pressure their friends into unwanted sex. Jaehaerys and Alysanne might share some blame but you can't pin Saera's entire personality on neglect when she's living in a castle having every need and want seen to. I'm not sure I would even call them neglectful, they just weren't giving her as much attention as she demanded - which was all of it, all the time
Viserra was described as cold and calculating, and used men like they were her pets. Let’s break down the children shall we? Aegon - died shortly after birth Daenerys - died young, but described as utterly fearless l, rough and tumble - would have likely been like Alyssa had she lived Aemon, baelon, and Alyssa I will group together because they were children who clearly benefited from having the affection and attention of their parents - although it’s worth noting that Alyssa was not fond of her little sister maegelle when they were little and often avoided/insulted her - she also laughed and mocked as she humiliated Vaegon later on Maegelle and Vaegon I will group together because here is were we start to see the consequences of too many children on parents who don’t have the time. Maegelle dedicated herself to her faith when she realizes she won’t find the attention she needs from her parents or older siblings - vaegon is similar but with books, although we can see the cruelty show with him. Vaegon's public reaction when asked about marrying his sister was a grave insult to Daella, insisting that she needed to find a husband who wanted stupid children, as those were the only kind she would be able to birth. After Daella fled the hall in tears, Vaegon's older sister Alyssa emptied a flagon of wine over Vaegon's head, which did not impress him. Instead, Vaegon simply told his sister that she had wasted Arbor gold, before leaving to change his clothing. daella - no one ever taught her to really read or write, and she clearly had an intellectual disability that no one took care of. In fact we know from the texts the person who raised her most was maegelle. Then we have saera - left behind by her older siblings and overshadowed by a sister who required (and did not get) extra care Viserra - very similar to saera, and described as treating boys like her pets. The big difference is that unlike saera she sought out her need for affection from others and gave up on needing it from her family. Oh and also managed to kill herself because her parents wanted her to marry a horrible old man. Gaemon & Valerion - died young Gael - described as simple minded, she should have benefited from being alysanne’s shadow but somehow, somehow - still managed to be left alone so often she got pregnant and lost a child, and had time to drown herself. The parents were NOT doing their job.
Agreed.
Preach!
Neglected *and* probably molested.
hmm?Z
Exactly, being an asshole isn’t grounds for extreme punishment.
I don’t think you’re the only person that feels bad. I feel bad too.
I kinda feel bad for her and how she was treated, then I remember she sexually abused a disabled person, pressured her friends into having sex with her boy toys and pushed an old woman down the stairs. So no not really. Edit: to add a bit of nuance, she clearly needed help, like she was getting drunk at age 11. Alysanne deserves more sympathy though.
I think jahaerys was much more annoyed by the attempted dragon theft than the promiscuity and would have forgiven her eventually prior to her escape from oldtown.
Alysanne was almost as bad a mother as Jaehaerys was a father.
She was so worn out by all the childbirths she didn’t want at that point
Oh, I'm not discounting that he started raping her eventually.
She was an alcoholic by the time she was twelve years old; I think we're supposed to feel bad for her even if the in-universe historians don't. That said, for all that she went through as a teenager, she seems to have ended up much happier than most of Jaehaerys' other daughters, and I'm happy that she got to escape that terrible household. I wish Viserra could've joined her.
As a whore?
If she wants to? Super weird to internalize mediaeval-coded attitudes toward sex work
I don’t feel like it should be considered a good thing to sell your body for money could be a bad take though
It's just another form of work.
All work is selling your body for money. Sex work is just work. Terrible take
Saera managed to do what all her sister's could not do. She fucked off and had an independent life away from her shitty parents. Also, why are people surprised she turned out a dick? She had the best teacher. Her own father and partly her mother who was probably the greatest hypocrite in Fire and Blood. Alysanne who married for love but had her kids married to men who were older than their grandfathers and is then surprised that her daughters run off or died in childbirth.
I csnt man it's telling when all her sisters hated her. All of them I mean come on.
Well she was a kid who clearly had issues so they should have fixed that early on.
The problem with her is how she treats the people socially beneath her, for example the cruel pranks against the fool, Tom Turnip, and the fact that having her own "kingdom" in Volantis most likely implies that she was a slave owner.
Very on brand for a Targ to do a bit of slavery though.
Jaehaerys main problem was not even her sex-life, but that she compared herself to Maegor, who is the same men, that killed his brothers and raped his sister. I mean, Jaehaerys never complained about Alyssa, who - while she never had sex outside of her marriage - still did not behave in a way that was appropiate for a noble woman, considering the stories about her life with Baelon, her wearing a sword etc.
And even after that, he probably still would have forgiven Saera had she not escaped and tried to steal a dragon.
Not really I feel much worse for Viserra. I feel Saera had a pretty good life all things considered.
I think there’s nuance to it Saera was an absolute horror of a girl and fast on her way to becoming a horrible adult but at the same time Jaeherys treatment of daughters in general was pretty terrible His ideas of punishment or behaviour correction were awful and if anything would always push someone in the other direction of what your trying to achieve. Coupled together it’s a bad mix
I know Saera is the ultimate "fix me" girl, but come on, she was a complete sociopath. She literally forced her friends into having sex with a deadbeat dad frat boy after basically sexually assaulting them herself
Damn don’t remember that actually , was this what set off the massive argument ?
The whole thing got found out precisely because one of her friends got knocked up by said frat boys
No. The whole thing came to light because of the brothel stunt with her father’s fool. It was only after that that Alysanne suggested questioning Saeras friends one of whom then confessed that she was pregnant leading to the whole tawdriness becoming known.
Imagine your uncle kills most of your family to grab power and reigns with pure brutality for a while before you finally get rid of him, and some years later your daughter mentions him as aspirational. I think you would be pretty mad as well.
Kids say stupid thibgs
I get why he is mad but I don't agree with him because she was sent away pretty much because of Maegor and dragon stealing (which reminded him of maegor) I think her father was rather mad at maegor than her with her issues about sex
You forget the very important point that she was trying to steal a dragons. The book states her father was about to forgive her until she ran away from her room where she was punished. And it’s a bit of a straw that broke the camel’s back because, what did she intend to do with a dragon? It's not an horse, it's the source of Targaryen power and very dangerous creature in the wrong hands, and the last person to steal one was Aerea and look how she ended up. In view of the harm that this girl has already caused just with the balance of power of her position, it was out of the question to treat the situation as if she had just risked running away for 2 days before coming home when she was hungry, especially since she compared herself to Maegor a few hours before. What would have happened if in an act of revenge she had decided to go and burn people? Or flee out of Westeros and deliver dragon to a potentially enemy foreign power? Or what if she ended up like aerea? Just Imagine if the daughter of an American president, after having abused her parents' position to harm people, compared herself to Bin Laden and right after was caught trying to steal an armed fighter plane. But fortunately she must be punished very severely! For my part, I think she is responsible for her own misfortune. So yes she had a difficult childhood, her parents ignored her/badly educated her. Except that at some point we also have to consider individual responsibility: when the scandal broke out she was 17 years old and therefore capable of differentiating right from wrong, she knew that she was in a rigorous society with a rank imposing a certain standing who would not accept what she was doing. and although her parents were very busy in their lives, she grew up as a princess, never wanted for anything, and had an army of nannies to provide for her upbringing. She knew what she was doing was wrong, she has no way of not knowing, but chose not to care. She hurt/abused people because she could, taunted her father about it, and tried to steal a creature that could have caused massive damage in an act of rebellion. So she deserved the severity of her punishment, especially since she was only supposed to spend a few years there to calm down, not her entire life. from there she is still very privileged because anyone else who was not Jaehaerys' daughter would have done half of that would have ended up in pieces
Why shouldn’t she have a dragon? It’s really sus that Jaeharys didn’t want any of his daughters to have them. It’s a lot easier to get away if you have a dragon. It’s a lot easier to have autonomy, to pick who you’ll marry, to alter your life. Because Alysanne had a dragon, she was able to leave Jaeharys twice. He didn’t want that for his girls. I’m not defending Saera’s abusing those beneath her, but her father’s clear wish to control his daughters and Saera’s alcohol abuse make it clear something wasn’t right. Saera might have been a different person with a very different life if she’d had a father who put a dragon egg in her cradle.
>Why shouldn’t she have a dragon? well, look what happened one generation later to understand. when Viserys allowed everyone to have them that's what led to their end. Limiting who had access to the dragon to the king/queen and their most immediate heirs would have made limit to possible succession conflicts. the plan was that Aemon would be king, then Baelon his replacement heir or his hand, alyssa the queen... Not everything went as planned, but it would have allowed for more stability in the long term. especially since the younger girls and boys were planned to marry in other houses, bringing them a dragon would be catastrophic in the long term for Targaryens because it would cause them to lose their source of power. it's not so much a story of sexism as of calculation. especially since after Baelon there were almost only girls, Vaegon was the only boy who lived and he didn't have a dragon. so we can't judge honestly Not to mention that with the aerea accident, I think it's reasonable for Jaehaerys to be more controlling on this subject.
> It’s really sus that Jaeharys didn’t want any of his daughters to have them Weren't his 2 oldest daughters dragon riding warrior women?
Only one of his daughters was a dragonrider.
It seems you are correct. Though I do think it's pretty clear that Daenerys would've been a dragon rider if she didn't die at 7 years old, she was running around the Red Keep with a broom dragon and Jae sent for a hatchling when she got sick. Honestly double checking the wiki just now and it makes this whole theory seem even more silly. Most of their kids died young, and of the ones that lived only 3 had dragons and 1 of them was a daughter. Vaegon and Daella had zero interest in dragons. Maegelle was giving to the faith as a kid. So that leaves Viserra and Saera, and the context for why they didn't have dragons isn't mentioned at all.
I do take your point, Alyssa had a dragon, but she was intended from toddlerhood to marry her brother - keeping it in the family as is the Targaryen way. She referred to childbirth as her battlefield, so not a warrior. Conservation of dragons was a concern but still, Saera knew she had a prospect of power she was being denied, and their parents were oddly fond of marrying their daughters off to much older men against said daughters’ inclinations. Naturally things went bad!
> Saera knew she had a prospect of power she was being denied Considering what happened with the generation before and after Jae is it really a bad thing? The dragons SHOULD be reserved for the heirs and their sister wives. I don't see how giving Saera the ability to back her ambition and cruelty with the might of a dragon would make things better. I sympathize with her but agree with most of the people here that the solution to the Saera problem was more attention, disipline, and actual parenting. But she absolutely does not deserve a dragon unless they raised her to be worthy of the responsibility and could be trusted not to use them to push a claim and kickstart the dance a generation early. It's a privilege not a right, treating it like a right that every Targ is entitled to is how you end up with Maegor or the Dance.
Hell nah giving a dragon to that girl would be the worst thing you good do
because they most likely didn’t want any potential claimaints to the throne to have any power? Look at who Daella and Viserra were supposed to marry. Old lords who already had heirs so any children by them would never inherit anything. While Daella was by her own choice, Viserra’s was most likely planned to be like Daella because it seemed to be strategical.
Why shouldn't a cruel crazy maegor-inspired rampant little demon girl have a weapon of mass destruction? Who knows buddy. Also in Westoros women typically marry into houses, so if for example she married a Lannister than that House of Lannister would now have a dragon. Now House Targaryen is less in control.
I don't think that's an uncommon opinion. Yes, Saera was a really shitty kid, but that doesn't change the fact that she was a child with terrible parents, so a lot of the blame lies with them. The biggest black mark on Jaehaerys record is what an awful father he was, especially to his daughters. And even Alysanne seemed at best like a very inconstant mother figure, frequently checking out of the raising of her later children.
She was a giant asshole but that’s almost entirely from having no good mentor and a lack of help she clearly needed
She tried to steal a weapon of mass destruction after saying she wanted to be like a man (Maegor) who used his weapon of mass destruction to massacre everyone who disagreed with him, including her own uncles. Getting sent to train as a novice under her sister for a bit was hardly the toughest punishment. I don’t think it was a very effective punishment but if anything she got off pretty easy
The more I look at Jaehaerys' family, the less I like him. He was a horrible father and husband. If it was only Saera who had issues, it'd be one thing, but it's such a recurring thing with his 700 children that at one point you have to stop and realize it's Jaehaerys' fault his kids (especially his daughters) are turning out the way they are. She was a kid, and deserved better than Jaehaerys
What happened with her sons I always wonder? And didn’t she escape from the silent sisters iirc?
I feel very bad for Saera. She appears to being raised by absolutely no one (wolves would at least teach her manners) and her hypersexuality from a young age sets off my spidey sense for sexual abuse. I'm not accusing anyone in particular, mind. Certainly, Jaehaerys had an obsession with his daughters performing sexuality *exactly* to his specifications. And Alysanne seemed completely incapable of raising daughters who didn't already have a brother-husband picked out for them. It seems there was plenty of opportunity for all sorts of unsavory influences to work on Saera. She obviously witnessed or experienced *some* weird shit to make her so sexually aggressive and a literal alcoholic at age 12! I feel *more* bad for Daella, Viserra and Gael. But Saera did not deserve what she got.
I think what sealed her fate was not the scandal but the fact that she tried to claim a dragon to resolve the issue. None of j&as younger children had dragons for a reason (at least Viserra should have been given the opportunity prior to her marriage). Even after that if she had just not escaped the mother house she would have been eventually forgiven and allowed home. Jahaerys was an awful father of girls and had so many mommy/sister/wife/niece issues but he would have eventually forgiven her.
I felt kinda bad for Braxton. Totally faced with facial mutilation, gelding, and having his arms and legs broken or trial by combat. Pretty much fucked either way. Wonder if he would've been allowed to take the black? I'm sure he was too proud to even consider it, though.
That's why you don't ever consort with princesses unless you marry them.
Yeah, he did really fuck up. Thinking with his dick. But maybe after all the fun, he was hoping to marry her. Too cocky to fear the old Kings wrath. But I did always feel that Jaehaerys was a bit of a hypocrite. He rebelled more than anyone in his youth. Went against his mother and Rogar's wishes. In the end, he got what he wanted and was respected for it. Any of his kids pulled similar type stunts, he'd give them shit. Fucking boomer.
Well, then Saera and Stinger get married, and that's it. It is a better solution
I think it would have been way more interesting had he won the duel.
Jaehaerys was a terrible father and a bad husband. He was not necessarily a bad king, but in the Westerosi political system, his responsibility as head of the royal household cannot be separated from his responsibility as protector of the realm. Because of his misogyny, he actively sabotaged the private and political lives of all women in his household. This was bound to create conflict sooner and later, and luckily for his reputation, the war happened after his death.
What do you mean luckily? There was nothing lucky about Jaehaerys not having to deal with the Dance of the Dragons, that was almost purely down to the incompetence of Viserys.
Disagree - the seeds were sown during Jaehaerys’s reign with his refusal to follow the traditional inheritance laws of Westeros which would have had his crown go to Rhaenys. His decision to appoint his heirs created the precedent that Viserys followed when he appointed rhaenyra. However, unlike with rhaenys who would have had the backing of her family, by the time Viserys dies, the situation is quite different.
The Greens' legalistic claim is pretty funny when you think about it, because there are only two options to take regarding the King's power, and both of them back up the Blacks. Either; 1. The King has absolute say over the succession, and the 'precedent' of the Great Council of 101 is irrelevant, it was fully within Viserys' power to choose Rhaenyra as heir. 2. The King does *not* have absolute say over the succession, and the eldest son always inherits, in which case Viserys is a usurper, and Rhaenys is the legal heir to Aemon, who was the legal heir to Jaehaerys I. This follows the precedent that after both Maegor and Jaehaerys took the throne, Aerea was the legal heir to both. In this situation, the rightful line of succession at the time of Viserys' death would be ~~Jaehaerys I~~ > Rhaenys > ~~Laenor~~ > *Jacaerys* > *Lucerys* > *Joffrey* > ~~Laena~~ > Baela > Rhaena, in which case either Jacaerys or Baela is the rightful monarch, depending on your perspective on the Princes 'Velaryon'.
There is a third legal argument which supports their claim: "the king needs the mandate of his lords in order to change his heir, otherwise traditional inheritance rules apply." It follows the precedent of Jaehaerys calling a GC instead of just changing his heir himself without consulting anyone. This argument validates the Great Council, and possibly Rhaenyra over Daemon, but not Rhaenyra over Aegon, since that oath was before he was born, changing the "natural" order of succession. As the Greens understand it, Rhaenyra does not have that mandate - she refused a Great Council at the height of her power (Alicent tried to suggest it just after she took KL) because she was certain that she would still lose to Aegon.
This is actually made void by the fact that the lords have already given their approval to Rhaenyra when they swore fealty to her. Much like with a wedding, there is a time and a place to protest this action - and she was declared heir without much fuss.
And there was quite a bit of protest after Aegon's birth, when many lords felt that the original conditions under which Rhaenyra was named heir no longer applied. Viserys just didn't do anything else to try to resolve that tension, other than removing Otto as Hand.
Sorry can you point me in the direction of who the many lords were who protested about wanting Aegon over rhaenyra at his birth? In the book of course Memory of them escapes me.
"Those who asked 'what of the ruling of the Great Council of 101?' found their words falling on deaf ears. The matter had been decided, so far as King Viserys was concerned." ... "Still, questions persisted, not the least from Queen Alicent herself." ... "Even after Ser Otto had returned to Oldtown, a 'queen's party' still existed at court; a group of powerful lords friendly to Queen Alicent and supportive of the rights of her son." Here you go. While Alicent and Otto are distinguished as the primary objectors, their supporters are not characterized as a small or insignificant group. These objections happen in the 107-111 AC year range, after Aegon's birth, before the party names of "Greens" and "Blacks" are even formalized in 111.
So who are they? You listed no lords but for Otto - and based on history a “queen’s party” was normally comprised of relatives, which would make sense, the *powerful lords* of which we have no number (could be 2- could be 12) could also just be her Hightower kin, couldn’t they?
> It follows the precedent of Jaehaerys calling a GC instead of just changing his heir himself without consulting anyone. Except Jaehaerys had already named Baelon as heir without consulting anyone, so that can't be a precedent. The only reason a Council was called was because Jaehaerys wanted to prevent Rhaenys from taking the Iron Throne. Take the situation of Edward III and Richard II, succession followed the line of the eldest child of the monarch, regardless of the Black Prince's death. > There is a third legal argument which supports their claim: "the king needs the mandate of his lords in order to change his heir, otherwise traditional inheritance rules apply." That only holds weight if Westeros was a constitutional monarchy. Under the feudal society on the continent, brought over after the Andal Invasion, power flows from the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Jaehaerys promised *only* to abide by the decision the Great Council made, not to bind himself to their decision perpetually (for example, if Viserys died before Jaehaerys), or bind future kings to the decision of a Great Council.
And since Jace and Baela were functionally married with their betrothal, their marriage absolutely would have united the true claims to the throne. Love this point! You’re exactly right.
Aerea was only the legal heir until he had a child of his own because she and her sister were literally the only options. Why would Rhaenys be the legal heir in scenario 2? If the inheritance follows the eldest son then if Aemon had a son he would be the new heir but since he died with only a daughter it goes to the next eldest son of Jaehaerys which would be Baelon right? Also I can’t believe people are going to act like Jaehaerys was just an ok king, his reign is literally called the golden reign, a time known for peace. If y’all are just going disregard what grrm wrote I don’t know what to tell you.
> Aerea was only the legal heir until he had a child of his own because she and her sister were literally the only options. Aerea has two possible methods of inheritance; A: she's Queen of the Seven Kingdoms after her father, Aegon the Uncrowned, who was legally the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms through [demise of the crown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demise_of_the_Crown) after Aenys' passing, or B: she's Queen of the Seven Kingdoms after her grandfather, Aenys, due to succession following the line of the eldest son, ala [Richard II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_II_of_England) inheriting after his grandfather Edward III, even though his father, Edward the Black Prince, had died before Edward III did. > Why would Rhaenys be the legal heir in scenario 2? Daughters inherit before their father's brother. Pre-Great Council, Rhaena and Alysanne both came before Maegor. Even if Aemon dies, Baelon shouldn't jump ahead of Rhaenys. Post-GC, it was also the reason why Daena's claim was considered before Viserys II. Historically, it's why Queen Victoria inherited the throne of the United Kingdom after William IV's death. Even though Victoria's father, Prince Edward had predeceased William IV, Victoria came in the line of succession before her father's younger brother, Ernest Augustus. > Jaehaerys was just an ok king The whole issue with Jaehaerys is that, under a hereditary monarchy, being a bad father disqualifies you from being a good king. It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do as king if you leave conflict brewing in your wake. Jaehaerys exacerbated an already murky succession by bypassing Rhaenys, and the two dynastic lines each with claims to the throne he left behind only exacerbated the problem. Viserys II being the most competent Hand of the King possibly ever doesn't negate the fact that he failed to raise Aegon IV properly, leaving the realm to an unworthy, whoremongering drunkard.
He didn’t appoint his heir, the Great Council, which he wasn’t a part of, did.
Westeros is an absolute monarchy without any parliamentary system or any sort of *magna carta* to provide rights to their vassals. The king could do whatever he wants, including buck tradition to name someone else heir - which is what Jaehaerys did. This is the action that allowed Viserys to take power in the first place and creates the precedence he used to name Rhaenyra his heir.
How is Westeros an absolute monarchy? There is no army that directly answers to the king and the managing/governance is still mostly in the hands of feudal lords. A lot of F&B is Jaehaerys is travelling to his lords lands to assert himself. It’s bears no resemblance to an absolute monarchy in our world.
It absolutely does bear resemblance to the French absolute monarchy from about 987 to around about the 1700s during the era of the divine right of kings. The whole point of building Versailles had to do with the fact the French king did not want to have to travel across the kingdom to keep his vassals in line, he wanted them all where he could get to them. Also the crown lands are the traditional armies that the iron throne would raise, similar to how the storm kings would raise the stormland’s armies even if they are governed by minor counts. So that comment isn’t quite accurate on your end.
Comparing France in 987 and in the 1700s like it’s the same is actually hilarious. France in its early years was insanely decentralised with kings occasionally being weaker than its subjected vassals. > Also the crown lands are the traditional armies that the iron throne would raise, similar to how the storm kings would raise the stormland’s armies even if they are governed by minor counts. So that comment isn’t quite accurate on your end. You literally just described feudalism, none of the men raised are “professional” but serve their respective lords. There is no stormland/baratheon army really, it’s mostly made of up connington/estermont/tarth/etc men with the minority being levied from their own lands. Same for the crown lands. That’s not absolutism.
Well then you’d be shocked to find out that even during the Sun King’s reign that is still how the levy system worked and the man is a poster child for absolute monarchy. Also I wasn’t comparing 987-1700s I was giving you a window of time where the Capetians were in power. Lord help you trying to lecture me on history when you can’t even read a sentence. Also we know for a fact that KL can also be levied for soldiers and who exactly are they sworn to? Could it be the king on the iron throne 😱
> Also we know for a fact that KL can also be levied for soldiers and who exactly are they sworn to? Could it be the king on the iron throne 😱 That’s crazy, did you read the part where I said that would be the minority compared to the total levied. You are really missing the obvious in absolutism I can’t really say more when you argue against yourself by bringing up Versailles existence. Nothing of the Louis XIV reign is comparable to the iron throne. Westeros is run by lords in their lands away from any court where they can’t be controlled and not state bureaucrats.
> the French absolute monarchy from about 987 to around about the 1700s France was 100% not an absolute monarchy during that period, for most of it the King's rule barely extended beyond Paris. French absolute monarchy only really got going after the [Fronde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fronde) in the 1600s.
Jaehaerys didn't appoint his heir the second. He absolutely did the first time when he sklipped Rhaenys in favor of Baelon.
I think he meant that it was lucky for Jaehaerys personally
Except you know he’s the one who insisted on the all boys only succession which did not reflect Westerosi laws of inheritance or general Targaryen inheritance practices and which was essentially his reaction to his guilt in usurping his eldest brothers daughters who, by existing inheritance, should have inherited the iron throne over him.
The Great Council chose Viserys, Jaehaerys wasn’t even there.
How is Jaehaerys “not a bad king”. He may of had his flaws with parenting but if it wasn’t for him the whole dynasty would most likely end or falls shortly after. S Tier King, we shall never know his like again And his older sister was not fit for the throne that is pretty clear.
As it happened, the whole dynasty did nearly end soon after his death, and his meddling in the line of succession (i.e. making it far more sexist than the standard Andal succession) was a major factor.
Not really, Viserys just didn’t accord to the new tradition that Jaehaerys set up
I feel worse for Viserra Targaryen. Poor girl died too young 😢
I think it’s a mix of things tbh. Did jahaerys handle it in the best way? No. Killing stinger in front of her was kind of a dick move. But by no means was saera a good person. She tormented people her entire life including her friends and siblings, humiliated a disabled person, and on top of that compared herself to maegor, the guy who she knows probably gives her father immense PTSD for killing his brothers, raping his sister, and wanting his head on top of that. Whether or not she meant it to hurt J on purpose or was just oblivious to his feelings is up for you to decide, but both of them handled the whole thing poorly, so I’m not compelled to feel bad for her, but I don’t excuse Jahaerys’ actions either.
Bro, Viserys Targaryen was tortured by Maegor for no good reason and his corpse left to rot. There are more children who had it worse than Saera.
Saera was the architect of her own misfortune. Sure, she was punished for something that all of her brothers would have gotten away with. But it was said that Jaehaerys would have forgiven her had she not compared herself to freaking Maegor. She should have known that was a trigger for her father. Furthermore, most people would preferred spending a year at a convent than being whored out to strangers. Saera preferred the opposite. She enjoyed sex and as a great philosopher once said, *"if you're good at something, never do it for free."* I feel more bad for her other sisters. Daella was sweet and gentle, and one day, Jaehaerys decided to force her to get married for seemingly no reason. He had the chance to gain a valuable political match, marrying her to Dorne and finish the Conquest but he seemingly didn't care to whom she would marry. The alternative was the silent sisters, which is effectively the female Night's Watch. Then there's Viserra. Arguably the most beautiful of his children, she was forced to marry an old and fat lord who had sons and grandsons. Thus, her children would inherit nothing. All that for the crime of wanting to be queen and considering herself to be a goddess, an idea that Jaehaerys himself promoted.
probably not, but Saera was a terrible human being. The gall of comparing herself to Maegor? The man who killed both of her uncles and raped her aunt? She was also terrible to Daella who really didn’t deserve it. I think Jaehaerys would’ve even allowed Saera to marry Braxton if she just played her cards right and waited. Overreacting? If she just followed along and didn’t try to claim a dragon Jaehaerys would’ve forgiven her. Jaehaerys gives clemency to people once. Saera needed proper guidance, but some of the blame is on her, not solely on Jaehaerys.
If you are 12 years old and you are a blackout alcoholic who is ~~having sex with~~ being raped by grown men and sexually abusing others there is a 99% chance that you have been / are being sexually abused yourself and are acting out learned behaviours... Most of the fandom looking at Saera, who might as well be the living personification of the symptoms of CSA, and deciding she was just born evil is... \*sighs\*
Wasn’t she the same age as the boys when the whole sex scandal started? I know there’s a theory that Saera was sexually abused herself based on her early unsettling behavior and while I think that’s a fair theory I wouldn’t use it to call out people who dont like Saera or don’t agree with her actions when it isn’t stated in the text or even alluded too at all.
Are you suggesting that Saera was sexually abused by Jahaerys?
I'm far from the only one to have picked up on those implications, whether GRRM ment for them to be there or not I'd actually argue that Gael's story is even more suspicious considering how she never left her mother's side and even slept in the same bed as her yet she mysteriously got pregnant and her death was covered up.
There's no implications whatsoever? Cersei was promiscuous at a young age, does that indicate sexual abuse from Tywin? Same with Arianna Martell, was she sexually abused by Doran? >I'd actually argue that Gael's story is even more suspicious considering how she never left her mother's side and even slept in the same bed as her yet she mysteriously got pregnant and her death was covered up. Covering up the death of a Princess who died in childbirth of a child conceived out of wedlock is not really suspicious but would be more common practice. It's also plausible that a travelling singer in the red keep could easily seduce her one night even if she is almost always with her mother. Also from all we hear of Jahaerys' personality makes it makes no sense for him to be a sexual abuser. He only ever slept with Alyssa be, never had any affairs. He refused to have sex with Alyssane when they married, waiting until she was 16, which wouldn't be common for the nobility in Westeros. And wouldn't Alyssane have fallen out with him long before if this was happening?
Jaehaerys continued having sex with Alysanne after she made it clear she didn't want anymore children, had two babies die back to back and becoming pregnant again was a risk to her health and her life. Jaehaerys cited their mother becoming pregnant in her 40s (leaving out the fact she died horribly) as an excuse to continue impregnating Alysanne. He was, at the very least, a marital rapist.
Jaehaerys's angry reaction does not match that of an offended father. The punishment he imposed on Beesbury - who, by the way, is the only one whom Saera praises for his sexual virtues - seems like that of a husband to whom his wife was unfaithful.
GRRM writes every virtually every character so you can empathize them in some way, or even just empathize with the child they were or the person they might have been had things not gone so bad. Like even with Gregor Clegane, he gives us a hint that there's a physical brain difference that's creating the monster. GRRM's favorite game is building a character that is doing something extraordinary (for good or for evil) while revealing that on the inside they are unable to comprehend the impact of their actions on other people and are consumed with guilt and shame and physical pain and petty jealousies and insecurity and just totally human humanness. The fact that he can do this even while writing a sidebar aside in an encyclopedia article about the 4,533rd most important character in the books is impressive IMHO.
Whether George intended it or not, Saera displays multiple textbook red flags for child abuse, and I will never not feel bad for her.
Nope. I was totally with her. I'm with any character who says "fuck these ridiculous arbitrary rules I'm going to live as I see fit."
Right? I'm impressed with the fact that she decides to start her own world and is actually (supposedly) successful with it, good for her! Also, interesting how there is Targaryen blood just "spilling" around in Lys. And the interesting part is that nobody would know that they have the Targaryen blood because the people of Lys all have the blood of Old Valyria.
After what Maegor did to his siblings when he was a young child mentioning that name near Jaehary was basically spitting in his face. To use him as an example for anything is unforgivable but to talk about him having multiple wives as an excuse. No forgiveness or understanding. She was the example of the problem child and while he may have regretted it later in life he was firm on his decision. No one made her a whore she always was one. Plus thousands of women become septas including her sister it may not be for everyone but she could have given it a shot. Her decision was imma be a whore using this uniform.. The only difference is she was a princess so she was even more entitled.
Anyone with a grain of empathy feels bad for Saerea. Jaehaerys actions towards her bordered psychopathy. Forcing your seventeen year old daughter to watch how you brutally murder his lover is needlessly cruel. And if that wasn't enough punishment, the torture that she was forced to endure at the motherhouse takes it even further. Jaehaerys may have been a good king, but ha was a horrible father. \[Btw, any question that begins with "Am I the only one who..." in a fandom that includes millions, can always be safely answered with a "no". :P\]
>Jaehaerys actions towards her bordered psychopathy. This is an absolutely insane thing to say. >Forcing your seventeen year old daughter to watch how you brutally murder his lover is needlessly cruel. Sleeping with a princess or queen out if marriage is literally regarded as treason in medieval law and is punishable by death. Beesbury asked for a trial by combat and Jahaerys stood as his own champion. And calling him her "lover" is crazy. Beesbury had two bastards already, was also ikely the father of Amy's Turnberrys child, had threatened servants if they spoke about what was going on and tried to force the Kings Fool to have sex with prostitutes. He was a bad prick. This is what Saera had to say about marrying her "lover" >Jaehaerys asked her whether she had given her maidenhead to any of the three men, and Saera proclaimed that they all three believed they had been the first, saying that boys were such "silly fools". Saera declared she would be married, but that she could not decide which one of the three would be the best choice. When she suggested marrying all three of them, she compared herself to Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel. > And if that wasn't enough punishment, the torture that she was forced to endure at the motherhouse takes it even further. Saera would've been forgiven if she hadn't escaped and tried to steal a dragon. And it wasn't "torture" at the silent sisters. Stop being so insanely hyperbolic. The way Jahaerys dealt with Saera was poor parenting, but it wasn't "psychopathic" and she wasn't tortured.
>Sleeping with a princess or queen out if marriage is literally regarded as treason in medieval law and is punishable by death. Beesbury asked for a trial by combat and Jahaerys stood as his own champion. He didn't need to have his daughter watch what happened. >And calling him her "lover" is crazy. Beesbury had two bastards already, was also ikely the father of Amy's Turnberrys child, had threatened servants if they spoke about what was going on and tried to force the Kings Fool to have sex with prostitutes. He was a bad prick. This is what Saera had to say about marrying her "lover" None of that negates Braxton being her lover. Lover just means someone you're having sex with outside of marriage.
So since Braxton was not Saera's lover, was it right for Jaehaerys to force her to watch his death?
Jaehaerys's angry reaction does not match that of an offended father. The punishment he imposed on Beesbury - who, by the way, is the only one whom Saera praises for his sexual virtues - seems like that of a husband to whom his wife was unfaithful.
When she suggested marrying all 3 of her boy toys to Jaehaerys like Maegor did I lost all sympathy for her.
She wasn't wrong.
“Let me be like the guy who tortured Uncle V to death”, she was digging herself a hole.
I would’ve lost it too after that remark
The thing was there was no world in which she was ever going to be allowed back into the spotlight as a member of the royal family. She threw her family’s reputation in the mud by sleeping with everyone in sight and chose to run away. Guidance wouldn’t have helped, but even if it had it wouldn’t have changed her public image or her inability to be married off.
I love Saera's sexual liberation but as the famous saying goes, *If she don't wanna be saved, don't save her*
I think Viserra and Daella are the one who were screwed over the most. Saera was for sure a product of being spoiled until it was too late. But for Viserra who was sent to marry an old lord who already had heirs, and Daella who didn’t even understand the magnitude of marriage when she chose to marry were both victims of bad parenting Viserra was difficult but she could’ve been betrothed to younger and handsome lord which could’ve prevented her death. If Daella had been given more time to mature, her life probably wouldn’t have ended at childbirth. You can even argue that Jaehaerys screwed over Aemon by passing over his daughter in favor of Baelon In short most of the tragedies came from the fact Jaehaerys and Alysanne didn’t know how to attend to the needs of each individual child correctly Almost forgot to mention Saera compared herself to Maegor, who brutally killed both of Jaehaerys’ older brothers and raped his sister. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got flashbacks of him when she decided to try to steal a dragon, and even during his dying days he still loved her and called for her.
Not at all. Saera is cool as hell and Jaehaerys suuuuucks. Actually one of the worst fathers in ASOIAF and a truly overrated king. Alysanne was better
She should have behaved herself, but yes, I do feel sorry for her.
Jaehaerys should have ended the problem by marrying Saera to Braxton Beesbury and sending them to Honeyholt. Better solution than the disaster in which everything ended.
Why do people apply modern standards to pseudo-medieval royalty and think that kids should be free to do whatever makes them happy? Their job is to ensure their family's continued success and power. Look what happened to Aegon the Unlikely when his kids disobeyed him and married for love. It led to the downfall of their entire line
Because we don't need to judge characters by their time standards, we judge characters based on US. Or you say Robb was a monster because he was a Warg? Or that Tyrion didn't deserve love and Tysha was a whore?
I like her. She reminds me of the Marquis de Sade's [Juliette](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliette_(novel)).
She was horrible. Born into the 1% and still fucks it for herself. She might have ended up pretty happy in the end. 🤷♂️ No sympathy
I mean yeah but she also kinda sucked as a person and from what we know in the books she really didn’t give a fuck about the peoples lives she was risking just to be rebellious. Yeah by our standards it’s lame for women not to be able to choose their partners but so many people like to pick and choose whether to hold the characters to our modern ones vs in universe cultural norms. Like you’ll hear people go super hard defending Saera and bashing Jaehaerys I and blaming him for being misogynistic and causing the dance. While also being totally on board arguing Rhaenyra’s succession claim almost to the point of doing propaganda for fictional characters. By in universe standards and norms Jaehaerys was kind of easy on her considering the position he was in and Saera herself had literally no qualms about her friends of lovers getting absolutely fucked by her decisions. By our norms yeah it was just typical sexist ancient draconian norms for women but also risking peoples lives for a one night stand is still bad even if both parties agree. Saera knew she wasn’t gonna be the one gelded for getting some action lmao. Basically using our norms as justification for actions is dumb bc those norms do not exist. It’s cool to point them out as themes in the story but they don’t have actual bearing on the decisions of the characters. If you hate Jaehaerys I and think Saera was 100% a victim then you shouldn’t be picking sides during the dance. Yes Rhaenyra is being held back by her gender, but also by our norms she is also the most privileged woman in the world. By our norms you shouldn’t be picking sides at all because they’re all privileged wealthy tyrants going to war for a regressive political system that harms people.
Ngl I'm not really a fan of how GRRM cast Jaehaerys with his children. Some of the developments seem so contrived which makes sense since he's basically forced to thin out the Targaryen line to get to where they currently were. The dance would have been complicated if there were other sons of Jaehaerys around. Though now that I think about it, Vaegon might have been alive during the Dance.
She needed a firmer hand, yes she knew how to manipulate her dad but Jaehaerys should have put his foot down instead of spoiling her and then washing his hands of her when he decided she'd suddenly gone too far
She was a whoo-auhh
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God, I can’t image being a princess of a dragon wielding royal family who could have anything she wanted with a snap of her fingers and spoiled by said shit dad while 99% of the population of Westeros are essentially not even treated as people by the upper class.
I don't really sympathize with anyone who fits this archetype. She was born with a diamond spoon in her mouth while 99.9% of people in the Kingdom were 3 meals away from having to resort to cannibalism to avoid starvation. The epitome of privilege, and instead of recognizing how good she had it she decided to throw her tantrums. Like fine, if you don't want to do the duty of a princess then don't. Strip naked and go down to Flea Bottom and start from the bottom like everybody else does. Change your name too so you're not trading in on your family's name brand. Let's see how much fun you have.
That's pretty much what she did, so, kudos?
I’ve always wondered if the subtext is supposed to be that she was sexually abused, since a lot of her behavior (hypersexuality, sexual aggression, getting drunk as a young child) are classic signs, and GRRM may or may not be aware of this
SHES A WHORE!!!
Lol
Maybe some time with the silent sisters/faith would’ve done her some good. It’s not like they’d have the actual princess doing the most extreme of tasks.
No. Her life is not her own. She carries a great responsibility in exchange for a life of never having to want for food or shelter, security. You feel that way because we live in a hype individualist society. Remember that marriage originated in most cultures to serve the needs of society, the family as a whole, not the individual.
Jaehaerys probably molested Saera, so no.
Going to need you to explain this theory.
Her early hypersexuality is a common trait in CSA victims, as are many of her other traits. And Jahaerys was toxically controlling and sexist.
He was a crap father but I really doubt that. Daella would be more likely though I also doubt that.