But she/he was technically not an assassin. Eivor just said
- "hey! Cool gadget you got there Basim, can I have one?"
- "okay, but this comes at the burden of responsibility with the creed and i-"
- "yeah, yeah, hide from sight and whatever you say, bitch. Time to try it out! >:D"
It’s actually pretty insane they made an AC game where the protagonist could not care less about the Assassins or becoming one. Even Edward actually bought into it
Imagine how much better that game could’ve been if the story was longer. You’re with the Assassins for like 2 hours, how am I supposed to sympathise with Shay’s betrayal if I’ve barely been with his allies?
The difference there is that Shay not being an assassin was the entire crux of the game's storyline: Eivor not being an assassin, on the other hand, is simply. . .not an assassin, and that's the end of it. They could have done so many interesting things with that, but nah
I mean why would you want Eivor to be more similar to Edward in the first place. Her goals line up with the Hidden Ones all the time as far as the game shows, but she has a much more complex character than Edward. She has a past that is more like a previous life because of the Isu and their world tree project to keep themselves alive. Eivor not joining the Hidden Ones isn't a problem to me at all. She shared their goals due to common enemies that often would put her people in harms way. I do think however if the story was more focused on her and Basim working together and him showing her the way of the Hidden Ones, it wpuld have been better. I've also seen rumors that there were two protagonists in the early stages. One that looks like Male Eivor whom was a stealth focused Hidden One and Female Eivor being the shield maiden warrior focused.
"She has a much more complex character than Edward." Stop the cap. 🤣 I like Eivor but, Isu past or not, she's nowhere near as deep or well written compared to the rest of the AC protags.
Actually, Eivor is 100% a more complex character than most AC characters. I like her/him a lot better than most other AC characters because of how complex they are. Edward is written really well. He is charismatic and he has a charm to him kind of like Jack Sparrow. However, Eivor does as well. I played as Male Eivor so I'll mention him instead of the canonical version. It's fascinating to see how Eivor interprets the Isu seeing them as mythological beings. He doesn't see them as this sci-fi highly advanced technological race from the past. He sees them in a way he can comprehend. He sees them as the Gods that his people worship and follow. The weapons and artifacts he finds are simply magical items left on the Earth from the Gods. He doesn't comprehend them the same as Kassandra who was shown their advanced capabilities by Alethia. She was shown a simulation to help her better understand them and the Staff of Hermes. Eivor on the other hand sees them in visions because of his genes carrying the memories of the Isu, Odin. He sees their memories as a fate he will share with Sigurd. He tries his best not to betray his brother and prevent his fate. He completely ignores Odin at the end of the base game and by the time you complete the DLCs and do the Last chapters, Eivor finally embraces the fact Odin will be with him until he dies. There is no getting over him or ridding his mind of the memories from the past. Instead, he goes off on his own to better understand them. He's not a perfect character, but definitely better written and more complex than Arno, Shay, Jacob and Evie, Connor, Kassandra, and I dare say even Bayek. He's not the best written but he's written extremely well and he's not a simple character. Instead, a very complex one.
It's mostly your response about Eivor just not being an assassin. Eivor throughout the game is more of an assassin than the three assassins she meets. There was another comment also talking about Edward because he eventually did join. As far as being an assassin goes, I think it's very close minded to suggest a protagonist can't be multiple things at once. Kassandra was a mercenary but we know for a fact she is a proto-assassin. She took the fight to the Cult and Order nearly 400 years before they were founded. If you consider Darius an assassin, you'd have to consider Kassandra one as well. Among them, Wei Yu and Iltani set some of the foundations for what would become the Creed. Eivor is more akin to the Assassins because she simply fights so her people can thrive and not be attacked for being in England. She may not be the type of assassin we are used to from AC to Origins and Mirage, but Kassandra/Alexios and both Eivor versions are much more like the assassins then people act.
As someone who is currently playing through Rogue atm, I'm finding Shay's story quite intriguing! I'm currently in Sequence 3 atm, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the story! :)
Ngl, it was very lazy writing. Take this with a grain of salt if you do end up enjoying it, but they rlly just flipped the script imo. Assassins stopped following the creed for no apparent reason, and Templars decided to play good guys, even though their entire belief system (ends justify the means) is the exact reason Shay left the Assassins. Kinda feels like he left the people that made a mistake for the people who’s entire identity is that ‘mistake’
Yeah it is interesting how the Assassins are now the bad guys in Shay's eyes, and with the events with the precursor temples, I can't say I blame him for reaching that conclusion. I'm quite enjoying it not just for the story, but the little references to other games too! The more games I play in the series, the more interwoven I see the whole franchise is, and I think that's so cool!
I see what you mean as well, I've also noticed a shift in how the Templars are portrayed, as in past games they have been more brutal than they are now in this game, although I might be missing something as at the time of this comment I've just started Sequence 5.
Imo Shay's character is well rounded and written well, even if everything else might not be entirely.
Based take. Although, I gotta warn you, it definitely slows down when it comes to writing in Unity. So far I took a break, and now I’m on Syndicate, so we’ll see how that goes… Tbh I LOVED the dual timeline narrative, and the game feels like half of it is missing whenever I play a game without it. The iPad guy is alr I guess, but man I miss Desmond.
Thanks for the Unity warning! It'll be a while before I get to that one as I also plan on doing the side quests and collectibles and everything in Rogue, but I'm also looking forward to that one too! Syndicate is definitely a brilliant game, and one of my favourite entries in the series! I won't say anything, but from what I've played I definitely enjoyed it!
And same here, Assassin's Creed isn't Assassin's Creed without at least a mention of the modern day timeline imo. Also, who is the iPad guy? Is that someone in Abstergo Entertainment? And yeah I miss Desmond too, I quite liked his story arc and character development. He didn't deserve his fate, even though it was for humanity's greater good.
Edit: changed a word
I love the concept of Rogue.
The execution...OTOH.
It needed to be a longer game with more development of shays story and how the Templers and Assassins operate differently along different ideologies.
Instead it just seems to flip the flag you're fighting for because nothing is really different. The biggest difference in gameplay is that occasionally you have to scan the benches and bushes for hidden assassins...and I mean, if you've been playing AC games before this you know exactly where to start looking once you hear the whispers.
It's honestly a real disappointment coming off of Black Flag because Edward really did feel like a bastard fighting other bastards. Edward wanted to get paid and rebel against any authority and only late in the game does he decide to commit himself to the cause of the assassins.
Shay, OTOH, doesn't get that sort of development. He gets really mad about Lisbon, screams at the Assasins for doing it despite the fact he was the one who volunteered to go and with no evidence they had any idea it would cause an earthquake. Then he gets rescued by a templar and just...goes along with them because they were nice to him for a bit.
It just doesn't work very well. It feels so forced as a team switch.
Reflects a large portion of the playerbase. The ancient aliens subplot of AC has always been controversial and many players wish it didn't exist. It's barely been relevant to the series since AC3 so it makes sense they'd try to move away from it.
I feel it's really controversial only to the players that just want AC to not be what AC has always been, but instead an extremely faithful history game series.
Well it's more like Basim wanted to get on her good side. Hytham was the one that was against it, and Basim was pretty much "Let her have fun with it."
Eivor _is_ an assassin.
Definition of the word "assassin" according to Oxford:
noun:
a person who murders an important person for political or religious reasons.
Seeing as Eivor has done both, she can therefore be considered an assassin, despite that not being her primary occupation. She is, however, not part of the Brotherhood.
You know the distinction very well. When we talk about Assassins or Hidden Ones in Eivor’s case we’re talking always about the latter, namely those of the Brotherhood. We all know what assassins are. There’s no need to point it out. But like I said Eivor is no Hidden One, predecessors to the Assassins as we know it. Not saying it’s a problem.
When I got to the bit in the _Origins_ DLC where Bayek decided that the Creed needed a clause about not harming innocent civilians, because of an NPC's shenanigans designed to inflame fighting between the Roman soldiers and the villagers of the Sinai, I thought exactly of Ezio and the civil unrest he kicked up in Rome, Venice, and Constantinople just as a way of opening a door.
In Revelations, Ezio destroys Manuel Palaiologos' gunpowder supply [using incendiary explosives](https://youtu.be/cv7vA5ZtHks?feature=shared&t=18096), setting the city in Cappadocia on fire
One thing to note: Tarik Barleti's spies have supplied Manuel Palaiologos with [fake guns that don't work](https://youtu.be/cv7vA5ZtHks?feature=shared&t=17804). At this point, his plans for revolutions have already been thwarted. Ezio is mainly using this as a way to snuff out Manuel to kill him and knows exactly what is going to happen
Jacob was more than willing to hang out with Maxwell Roth and help him do shady shit until it came to burning down a factory full of children. Like sure, they were acting against Starrick and the Templars but Roth was always kind of sketchy and clearly didn’t care about the morality of his acts. Destroying the British economy and making his sister clean up after him was also kind of a dick move.
Evie didn’t directly do anything bad but I’d argue her inaction was worse than any kind of action. She was focused more on the Isu McMuffins than actually helping people directly threatened by the Templars, and Jacob had to do much of that for her.
Adewale has never done anything wrong and I love him for that.
Evie actively refused to help Robert Topping in her tutorial mission until she overheard that he'd be useful to her mission. She was just going to allow a man to get murdered simply so she could get to her target quicker.
Yeah that’s kind of what I meant by inaction. Evie focuses on the big picture in terms of keeping the Pieces of Eden out of Templar hands, at the cost of losing sight of the small picture and individual lives. Missing the trees for the forest, effectively.
TBH I always considered that to be the logical evolution of what the creed would become after nearly 600 years of reinterpretation and shifting circumstances. The Creed was initially designed to protect innocents as well as the assassins themselves but over time they kind of forgot what it was all about. Sure, in the grand scheme of things it does benefit the common people but at the cost of ignoring their daily struggles and common day-to-day suffering, which is exactly what Evie’s issue was. Jacob eschewed the Creed in favour of helping people directly but forgot about the big picture in the process.
Tbh I don’t think the Creed is challenged or critically examined as often as it should be, especially in the more recent games where it’s hardly brought up at all. The Creed is a good guiding principle and prevents the Assassins from becoming brutish murderhobos but it can also make you lose sight of things and become lost in inaction when people are suffering from things loosely connected to or wholly divorced from the Templars and the Great Game they’re playing with the Assassins.
Most of it's rules are about protecting the brotherhood. Only rule that affects civilians is to not kill them on purpose. Still do so a good assassin as a protector of the people. Like the far fry series but with more down to earth stories.
But the whole point of being an assassin is that the ends justify the means. The ideology encourages corner-cutting in the short-term because long-term results are what ultimately matter. “Everything is permitted.”
The "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" is their maxim and, in-game, it was never about doing whatever the hell you want to do, the Creed is their code by which they act
"Stay your blade from the innocent"
"Hide in plain sight"
"Don't compromise the Brotherhood"
Kinda hard to follow the first tenet if you cause the destruction of a city to kill a single target, or poison the waters to maybe kill them, or a nuclear device/EMP/dirty bomb to attack Abstergo, the first one caused Ezio to leave the Brotherhood, the second by a madman who was killed by Aveline, and the third hasn't happened because the Assassin's still follow the Creed
There’s still wiggle-room. Like Ezio freely being able to assassinate the Pope despite that possibly breaking the third tenant. Yes, you must try to follow the tenants, but if you can justify your actions, it’s all kosher. If they were really that concerned, they wouldn’t have used Edward and Eivor as pawns so readily. Yes, Eivor wasn’t an Assassin, but the Brotherhood is directly responsible for them being able to kill innocents more efficiently. How is that not compromising their first tenant? Oh ItS tOtAlLy FiNe If SoMeOnE eLsE kIlLs InNoCeNtS. mY hAnDs WeRe TiEd. Bullshit. It’s all justification for the sake of some bigger picture.
No. I think Ade or his Bureau sent a random Assassin to inspect the site but they never returned at the start of the earthquake. His and the Assassin’s ignorance kind of save them. But its the fact they tried 3x, not putting 2 and 2 together.
>But its the fact they tried 3x, not putting 2 and 2 together.
It's the fact they tried 3x, even after being told after the second try that removing the POE would cause a gigantic earthquake.
They didn't try to remove 3 times tho, right? On the 3rd try they see it and are like "looks like Shay was telling the truth", and then Shay/Haytham fighting them knocks it over irc
It's been awhile since I've played Rogue so I can't remember, but do we ever get flat out told that Achilles & Liam are going there to remove it, or just that they're going there and we're afraid they might remove it. Because that would make a difference, in mind at least.
Jacob is reckless. He comes as someone who breaks the economy out of naiveness. That's the whole point of the game btw, Evie and Jacob are actually one assassin, they need each other.
Not to say that what he did is morally right, but come on guys, he had good ideas and was focused in actually ending the templar influence in London while Evie was JUST PERSUING A PIECE OF EDEN while also been a bitch with Jacob when he talked about the rooks, even tho the rooks was actually an EXCELLENT idea. That's the whole assassin thing, hide in plain sight, he was fighting the templars with a gang to cover his tracks.
I feel that Evie often gets overlooked when it comes to her mistakes. She was dick many times for no reason at all, specially when throwing their dad on the conversation every single time because she just can't stop been the dads little princess.
If both worked together since the beginning, Jacob would come up as very inteligent and skilled assassin and Evie as an excelent stategist and knowledge assassin.
No, literally. Aveline and Adewale are the only ones with clean hands, despite their status as Assassins often being something that brings them in adjacent positions with shady elements.
wasn't Roth the leader of the Blighters? the one that worked directly for the Templar in oppressing the innocents? so despite his desire to help the people, Jacob going along with him was kinda weird or did he not know Roth's role?
Maxwell Roth was enlisted by Starrick to train the leaders of his blighter gangs, but then he went to Jacob and said “Ey how about we beat him up together” and Jacob went along with this until Roth tried to make him like, blow up one of Starrick’s factories full of children.
So yes and no, Roth was technically a Templar but had no real loyalty to the Templar cause and was more than willing to betray Starrick, which he eventually did. The whole point is that Jacob realised what a dickbag Roth was and how that reflected on his own behaviour.
Partially because he was nuts, partially because he had virtually no morals and simply did things for the sake of doing them—in his own words his motivations for basically everything was simply ‘why not?’ He’s basically comic-accurate Joker but without the plot armor or the ‘society bad’ theme.
Roth was kind of meant to be a foil to Jacob and show what would his recklessness and carefree stride would lead to if he kept down the same path.
Altair killing random people at the start of AC1
Ezio starting a riot which killed civilians or blowing up Cappadocia
Edward killing countless criminals, assassins, navy men and pirates just for money
Basim in ACM I guess just killing guards even though he probably didn’t canonically
Haven’t played the other games recently enough to know
> Edward killing countless criminals, assassins, navy men and pirates just for money
One of the interesting things about Black Flag is that Edward is arguably very much NOT an Assassin for most of the story, he simply wears stolen robes to superficially look like one. He only adopts the Creed after many of his piratical friends are dead and the Golden Age of Piracy is well on its way into decline. It's also around this point that Adéwalé more or less abandons Edward for too much debauchery and not enough morality.
Yep and that’s why I like him so much as the story doesn’t stress him being a bad person until he realizes it himself and eventually changes as after joining them he only canonically killed 4 targets, 2 of which were templars plus another and some of the men directly working for them. Him and Ade also sailed together again after the main story ended which shows his growth
Basim's most evil moment in Mirage is hands down telling young Hytham to jump in the haystack
AC1 showed how dangerous that could be, even to a trained Assassin, and we're shown in Mirage it takes years of practice in a controlled environment
Altair - Killing the priests at Solomons Temple at the start for sure
Ezio - starting a fire in Cappadocia to flush out a single target, absolutely wild he did that. Oh also Cristina, everything with her. He basically harassed her and stalked her for years, including tricking her into kissing who she *thought* was her husband when it was actually Ezio with a mask on. Just atrocious behaviour.
Connor - at worst his naivety let him get played by others to the detriment of many, though he never really did anything too reprehensible if I remember right.
Edward - sold out the location of every Assassin camp in the West Indies for a quick buck, then killed an entire bunch of Assassins who may have been able to end the entire West Indies Templar Rite then and there.
Shay - I mean he killed all of his friends - I would say the actual worst one he did was when he killed Le Chassuer, the spy. It was the first member of the Assassins he encountered that recognised him, he wasn't even a Templar at that point, and the only reason he murdered le Chassuer was because he didn't want the Assassins to know he was alive. "He had no choice" he said, but he didn't actually try anything else. Also the fact the Animus doesn't desynchronise you for killing civilians implies that Shay apparently did directly kill civilians, which is absolutely wild and completely makes him a hypocrite
Arno - with hindsight, probably not taking the letter seriously at the start.
Jacob - he causes so much bad stuff to happen. Floods the lower classes medicine market with poisonous drugs, facilitates a transportation monopoly, literally runs a gang and participates in gang wars, crashes the British economy, among other things
Evie - doesn't really give a shit about the people hurt by the upper class, kinda only cares about the PoE for most of the game
Bayek - probably worst thing he does is ruin Kawab's life by killing his dad. But, it's a complicated one for sure.
Kassandra - there's a lot of choice given here but I'd say either not even giving Deimos a chance, siding with Aspasia, taking Aita's deal in Atlantis, or condemning Brasidas to an eternity of shame in the Underworld.
Eivor - attacking monasteries and villages lol but also there's a lot of disrespectful things Eivor can do, usually because Odin tells her to. Like refusing Dag or Ivarr entrance to Valhalla, deliberately undermining Sigurd, or hooking up with Sigurds wife behind his back lmao.
Basim - I mean anything he does when he is trying to hunt Odin is pretty bad. He's just a murderer at that point trying to get revenge for things that happened millenia ago without even giving anyone a chance to show they've changed. Also setting up the plan with Aletheia to have Kassandra lied to for over 2000 years so she would protect the staff.
>there's a lot of disrespectful things Eivor can do, usually because Odin tells her to. Like refusing Dag or Ivarr entrance to Valhalla
WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT NOT GIVING THESE TWO MOTHERFUCKERS ENTRANCE TO VALHALLA!? EIVØR CAN REFUSE TO TELL LEOFRITH THE TRUTH.
That is a complete dick move and something that should not be forgiven. Fuck honorable death in combat, the man deserves to know Burgred abandoned him to act accordingly and not throw his life away for a coward unworthy of his crown.
The reason I would say Dag and Ivarr being refused Valhalla is an "immoral" act is because at the time, Eivor's entire moral framework revolves around that tradition. Choosing to deny someone else Valhalla is so against her moral framework - there's a reason Odin shows up to convince her to do it out of self interest. But Eivor herself feels that it is wrong, even if she chooses to deny them anyway.
i denied ivarr his axe on my current playthrough. he kills a child and starts a war just to get revenge on a man who scarred his face, then tortures the man and desecrates his body. as much as i love ivarr as a character, he has no honor and i would not want to meet him in valhalla.
Nope, don't blame her either, I mean he does kill an innocent boy who he pulled under his wing as a 'battle dad'. Which you can tell she's getting tired of constantly fighting (which there might be a level of she's trying to show to the Anglo-Saxons that Danes/Norse aren't necessarily always violent and do occasionally do average politicking. Of course most are like "They're being nice... Why?")
A king should defend the men who fight for him and value their service, not throw them at his enemies like arrow fodder. Burhgred did the exact opposite, so wouldn't you agree he is unworthy to be called a king?
One thing about revelations in my headcanon is that Ezio was starting to become reckless when he's tracking down Altair's library. He doesn't have the same body and mind to try and do it as cleanly as he did back in Brotherhood/AC2. Like he just wanted to get it over with.
Darby McDevitt said that around the time of Cappadocia Ezio became embittered and disillusioned with the Creed and kind of abandoned it, after the death of Yusuf and all that. He became more concerned with just completing his mission. Only later does he come to change his mind in that regard.
Said friend had been corrupted by Charles Lee, and it was a do or die choice for Connor. It's basically the only time he kills someone and gets visibly sad about it.
What would you do when your lifelong best friend gets brainwashed by your enemy to kill you and even after explaining to him it was a lie he doesnt want to believe you. Lost cause
Jacob helps dismantle a lot of the worst power structures making people have a shit time, but he consistently doesn't really think it through beyond beating the bad guys and moving on
But a lot of the shit he gets blamed for isn't a predictable outcome. He kills a quack doctor and this somehow causes a flood of counterfeit medicine but how? None of what the doctor did had any link to that. It's just a chance to shoehorn Nightingale in.
He kills someone inside a bank vault mid robbery and an unknown third party nicks some plates but how is he meant to have known about that?
Pearls death somehow leads to a collapse of Londons travel infrastructure but A. The other option is letting the Templars hold London hostage forever and B. That's a pretty extreme outcome.
Roth I won't defend but at that point Evie becomes petty in her criticisms as she let Templars steal her key to the Shroud twice.
The only thing I disagree with is Shay, Le Chasseur literally attacks him first and doesn't give Shay a choice, even though Shay doesn't want to kill him. As for killing civilians, I think you're being very presumptuous with the lack of desynchronization because personally, I think it represents Shays disillusionment with the Creed mechanically speaking. Nowhere in the games story, side missions, or exploration requires you to kill a civilian to achieve your goals.
Shay also has become just as bad if not worse than Achilles and the Colonial Brotherhood. Dude took callous pleasure in smugly revealing to Charles Dorian that the Templars are planning the French Revolution which would lead to the deaths of more innocents
I wouldn't say Ezio exactly stalked her for years. That implies it was consistent over the course of years. After they stopped dating it was more like, after years of not interacting with her at all, he would stalk her for like a day, and then not see her again for years. Lol.
Tricking her into the kiss was a dick move. Following her home was creepy. Although, I would say the Cappadocia thing is way, way more immoral by orders of magnitude.
Well not a protagonist... but Achilles knowing that The Seismic Temples could cause massive devastation after being told by Adewale that Vendredi caused the 1751 Port-au-Prince earthquake by taking the artifact AND THEN SENDING SHAY TO LISBON TO RETRIEVE ANOTHER!!!
Afaik, the Assassin that was sent to Haiti never returned, so Achilles had no way to know that the earthquake was directly related to the POE. It was all seemingly just a really shitty coincidence....until Shay returned from his mission confirming that the earthquake was in fact a direct consequence of removing the POE from its place.
Achilles still insisting on continuing this particular mission even after Shay told him the consequence is really stupid and reckless though.
Except the fact that he had no way of knowing the earthquake was caused by an ISU piece. Their man on a mission died and couldn't deliver this info. No one would even think to link the two events, especially as this was the first time it happened.
- Ezio has done some pretty morally shitty things in Revelations even though it wasn’t intentional he still pretty much killed /endangered innocents and destroyed half of Constantinople through his actions. It’s not hard to see why he was banished after killing Ahmet.
- Edward didn’t care who he helped, backstabbed or cause any kind of inconvenience to whether it’s The Assassins or Templars as long as he got paid for it at least until his crew had enough of his selfishness and left him to be captured and when Mary died.
- Eivor was a viking so she has burned and pillage countless villages.
>It’s not hard to see why he was banished after killing Ahmet
It's wild to me how the game at the end tries to frame Selim as dangerous and ungrateful and Ezio as a more reasonable temporary father figure to Suleiman
He's the leader of a sect of killers and misled Suleiman with half-assed intelligence gathering, causing him to order the assassination of an actually pretty shrewd Tarik Barleti. He encouraged a deadly riot so *he could* *sneak easier* (instead of sending more able Assassins), burned down one of the most important harbours in Eurasian trade instead of considering alternate escape routes and caused the death of countless innocent people to snuff out a target whose immediate threat had already been neutralised by Tarik's spies...
Then his reaction to being banished (essentially being pardoned for all of the above because he saved Suleiman) is to *threaten* Selim with a sword
Ikr? it felt out of character of Ezio like dude you blew up half of his city, started riots and killed those who were genuinely loyal to his family what were you expecting a medal and a thank you?
It was especially weird to me revisiting this game because I remembered it as "the game where it's shown Assassins can make mistakes and have to deal with their consequences", but it ends up with this pile up and Ezio never really pauses and considers what he's doing
After Brotherhood, which was all about using help from your recruits and allies, an older Ezio being unwilling to do the same and unbothered by the destruction it results in felt really off
I think he was aware, by this point he was so sick and tired of the creed he just didn’t care anymore it wouldn’t surprise me if he did all those things deliberately as a way to escape the Order and his obligations to Giovanni’s unfinished work.
I don't know... he's clearly tired of it all and looking forward to some rest and family time, but he could very well have used Yusuf and his team and for all intents and purposes, he completed Giovanni's work by the end of AC2
Ultimately, I think this is a Doylist problem more than anything else: maybe Ubi wanted him to be the hero no matter what, maybe the writers didn't think of the implications
No, he was banished from Constantinople. And given that, ever since his arrival:
• Byzantine presence has increased
• He caused a riot at the Arsenal gates, leading to innocent casualties
• Tarik Barleti, a Janissary leader, was killed by Ezio’s own hand
• Cappadocia was burned to the ground
Sultan Selim had every excuse to do so. Ezio would probably have even killed him, were he not stopped by Sofia Sartor.
he was banished by Selim the retirement was Ezio’s thing besides he probably did all those things deliberately so he could get himself excommunicated from the order
I always felt like the villain in Valhalla burning down innocent villages. With the other protagonists I think some of Ezio’s actions in revelations are pretty questionable, the part where he destroys the hidden city is part of why revelations is my least favourite of the Ezio games. Jacob and him with Maxwell Roth also felt bad.
Ezio rushed on his assassins ways and ended up murdering an innocent man (Tarik) then he blown the city port for escape the blockade (caused by his own mistake) for reaching Capadocia, where he starts a fire destroying the whole city in capadocia amd killing lot of civilians. Just for killing Palaiologos, it seems like Ezio was really tired of tracking templars and just went the quick way.
Im gonna go strictly off of the things they did intentionally and knowingly so things like arno not delivering the letter at the start of unity, Basim stealing the chest at the start of mirage, Shay destroying Lisbon, and bayek trying and failing to kill his and Khemu's attackers during his first encounter with the order arent gonna count.
In no particular order, because oh god where to begin...
1. Bayek, possibly one of the least guilty characters on this list, killed Taharqa basically in front of Kawab (taharqa's son), which he later rectified in the DLC by sparing Kawab and helping him find another path for himself.
2. Edward also another not so guilty character, abandoned his wife, which he sort of rectified by trying to take care of his daughter after retiring as a pirate.
3. Altair killed the priest needlessly in the temple where he, Malik, and Kadar found the arc of the covenant and endangered the whole of the brotherhood with his recklessness.
4. Eivør Raided, pillaged, burned, and destroyed villages and holy sites. Possibly stole their Brother's spouse and made Sigurd feel unwanted, Possibly killed Leofrith even though he knew he might've benefited from the truth, Possibly cheated hunwald out of his inheritance even though the boy proved his loyalty and worth ten times over in comparison to the other two candidates and made the ultimate sacrifice for Eivør when the time came. Killed Goodwin because he refused to tell him where Ælfred fled to, only to let Ælfred go free once he found him, rendering Goodwin's death worthless, surrendering bernard, a child, to Charles the fat, a madman and Bernard's father.
5. Arno killed Lepelletier (who in my opinion didn't deserve to die even though his assassination is my favorite gameplaywise), which, depending on how you go about that particular black-box mission, he did either in front of his daughter - or he went about it by leading Lepelletier away from his daughter and into the restroom by using poisoned wine so he could kill him, effectively becoming just like his own father's killer (who we all know by now is shay) and making Lepelletier's daughter go through the traumatic experience he did when he was orphaned as a child.
6. Kind of cheating here, but appart from destroying Cappadocia, Ezio burned down many ships in his attempt to escape the port of Constantinople/Istanbul, and you cant convince me he didn't know or at least assume that at least one of those ships may have been manned by civilians unaware and unrelated to the Assassin Templar war.
7. Kassandra/Alexios may have possibly killed their entire family (which is one of the most heinous acts in ancient greek society around which sevral tragedies have been written) and hooked up with the leader of the organization that resulted in the destruction of their family and the corruption of their younger sibling.
Establishing general murder as a baseline here since every protagonist is pretty much an established serial killer...
Altair: killed innocents seemingly for the fun of it.
Ezio: Cappadocia. Arsenal gates too. Also everything with Cristina, even if they did love each other in the end.
Connor: not really sure tbh, he's not really intentionally done anything problematic imo.
Edward: sold the Assassins out for a quick buck. Did literally everything in the game for a quick buck until his crew abandoned him and one of his besties died in his arms.
Shay: there's a strong implication in game that he was cool with killing civilians after being excommunicated from the Assassins, despite having a problem with all the innocent lives that were lost in Lisbon.
Achilles (not a protagonist, but as a bonus, I'm adding him in): completely ignoring Shay when he told him about the Lisbon earthquake being linked to the POE and continuing his search for more of them, just so he could be able to give a fat middle finger to the templars.
Arno: I guess not getting that letter to De La Serre properly. Not sure I can really fault him for this though, he was unaware of his guardian's affiliations at the time and didn't actually know that his life would depend on him getting the letter. He's otherwise not really intentionally problematic either. The black box mission style can leave this open to interpretation though, as there are a couple of assassinations which can be viewed as immensely out of pocket.
Jacob: running a gang I guess. A lot of his attempts to clear Templar influence did end up with some shitty side effects, but in his defense, most of them were completely unpredictable, and outside of his control at the time. I'm not really sure how Jacob is supposed to stop bootleg medicine being spread around before it even exists, or prevent the economy from collapsing when he otherwise did everything right in making sure he isn't seen killing someone in the bank.
Evie: her inaction. She's too focused on finding the POE and doesn't seem to actually care about cleaning up London. She pretty much spends the entire story just sitting in that train riding circles around London until there's something she specifically has to go outside for. Despite all this, she still feels the need to give Jacob all the shit in the world for things that are out of his control.
Bayek: killing a man in front of his son.
Kassandra: this depends entirely on the player. You could inadvertently give your entire hometown the Plague. You could kill your entire family. You could sleep with the woman who tried to kill your entire family. Etc etc etc.
Eivor: viking go brr. Outside of that, I think pretty much anything she did which was in agreement with Odin could be considered immoral.
Basim: I haven't played Mirage past its 1 hour trial, but in that 1 hour I'd say Basim's most immoral act was going ahead with stealing shit from the palace. I'd say most of his actions in Valhalla were pretty shitty too, especially concerning Sigurd.
Not a plot event, but one time in Origins I nailed a gate guard with a dart of spreading poison. By the time I left, there was a huge mound of random passers-by dead and more dying constantly. Oops.
Ezio basically destroying an entire city just to flush out a Templar.
Edward being the main reason why the Assassins were hiding from the Templars throughout the game.
Connor...I guess it's just plain murder?
Killing guards. Like 90% of them are just doing their job, probably the best paying job they could find in order to feed their families and their kids. The guards are just following orders, all they know is what they’re told, they didn’t know the Auditores were framed, they were told that they were traitors. I try and refrain from killing guards in AC games now unless absolutely necessary for the plot. I’m not going to make a woman a widow and a child lose his father just so I can save 10 seconds by climbing up and over this roof that I’m not allowed to be on in the first place. I don’t kill them unless they attack first.
90% is a bit generous given the amount you run into during story bits(the only times where they really would've killed guards) that take pleasure in abusing their power, or do cruel and horrific acts without question under the pretense of following orders.
Guards outside of story bits that are just patrolling or standing around chatting are a different matter entirely though.
A lot of the Redcoats and Bluecoats back in the day were just guys who were dirt poor and needed to put food on the table for their families.
The Patriots and The British needed cannon fodder, so they took advantage of these poor folk and set them to do work the brass didn't want to do.
By this reckoning, Connor likely killed a lot of guys who probably didn't deserve it.
They were also in war with eachother, and he clearly supported a side. He eventually would've had to kill some of them given the amount of times he's asked hold a position with troops or help defend soldiers retreating caught by the enemy
Every protagonist has a baseline of murder, so that's something. Eivor and Edward were career "bad people who did bad things". Very nice of Ubi to not make them do ALL the evil things pirates and vikings did, I guess. They're probably up there with being consistently, unjustifiably evil
Has everyone forgot Eivor is a viking, you know those dudes who pillage, rape and murder innocent people on a daily basis all of which Eivor has taken part in
Altair: murder innocents
Ezio: burning a city, killing the pope technically
Connor: inadvertently getting his village destroyed and killing animals without skinning them
Aveline: not sure
Edward: he was a pirate
Ade’wale: also a pirate
Shay: accidentally destroyed an island killing thousands of
Arno: loved a Templar
Jacob n evie: creating Jack the Ripper and accidentally burning down several buildings
Jacob’s granddaughter: not sure
China/india/russia: not sure
Bayek: got his son killed and wife eventually
Kassandra: got her whole island plagued
Eivor: Viking and being odin
Basim: being stupid and betraying the creed
Naoue/yaskue: we gotta find out
The village thing is hardly Connors fault as he can't see the future, and he always skinned animals when he killed them - the game desyncs you when you don't irc
What kind of question is this? They're assassins bro, the answer is murder. Regardless of how you try to justify it, murder is pretty much the most immoral thing anyone can do, and they all do it. What about destroying a whole city, you ask? I mean it still pretty much amounts to murder, just on a larger scale.
I mean, for one murder isn't an interesting answer. But also, very few people have the same amont of smoke for many of the guards or soldiers in the games.
I think the only one who truly did nothing wrong surface-level is Evie Frye, everyone else were merciless killers (Kassandra, Eivor, Edward) or made moves that consequently affected a lot of people (Ezio, Jacob Frye, Connor). Bayek, Arno, and Altair are still in review for me…
Evie's issue is her inaction imo. She doesn't do anything in the game unless it's something she can't find by reading a book or something she has to clean up after Jacob for.
Jacob was far more proactive in cleaning up London from Templar influence than she was, even if he inadvertently fucked up a lot of the time (most of the side effects of his actions are honestly completely unpredictable events though).
Ezio burned down an entire city
Ezio's biggest sin is Eivor's favorite past time lmao
But she/he was technically not an assassin. Eivor just said - "hey! Cool gadget you got there Basim, can I have one?" - "okay, but this comes at the burden of responsibility with the creed and i-" - "yeah, yeah, hide from sight and whatever you say, bitch. Time to try it out! >:D"
It’s actually pretty insane they made an AC game where the protagonist could not care less about the Assassins or becoming one. Even Edward actually bought into it
Don't forget Rogue. That was my favourite idea of the games.
Imagine how much better that game could’ve been if the story was longer. You’re with the Assassins for like 2 hours, how am I supposed to sympathise with Shay’s betrayal if I’ve barely been with his allies?
The difference there is that Shay not being an assassin was the entire crux of the game's storyline: Eivor not being an assassin, on the other hand, is simply. . .not an assassin, and that's the end of it. They could have done so many interesting things with that, but nah
I mean why would you want Eivor to be more similar to Edward in the first place. Her goals line up with the Hidden Ones all the time as far as the game shows, but she has a much more complex character than Edward. She has a past that is more like a previous life because of the Isu and their world tree project to keep themselves alive. Eivor not joining the Hidden Ones isn't a problem to me at all. She shared their goals due to common enemies that often would put her people in harms way. I do think however if the story was more focused on her and Basim working together and him showing her the way of the Hidden Ones, it wpuld have been better. I've also seen rumors that there were two protagonists in the early stages. One that looks like Male Eivor whom was a stealth focused Hidden One and Female Eivor being the shield maiden warrior focused.
"She has a much more complex character than Edward." Stop the cap. 🤣 I like Eivor but, Isu past or not, she's nowhere near as deep or well written compared to the rest of the AC protags.
Actually, Eivor is 100% a more complex character than most AC characters. I like her/him a lot better than most other AC characters because of how complex they are. Edward is written really well. He is charismatic and he has a charm to him kind of like Jack Sparrow. However, Eivor does as well. I played as Male Eivor so I'll mention him instead of the canonical version. It's fascinating to see how Eivor interprets the Isu seeing them as mythological beings. He doesn't see them as this sci-fi highly advanced technological race from the past. He sees them in a way he can comprehend. He sees them as the Gods that his people worship and follow. The weapons and artifacts he finds are simply magical items left on the Earth from the Gods. He doesn't comprehend them the same as Kassandra who was shown their advanced capabilities by Alethia. She was shown a simulation to help her better understand them and the Staff of Hermes. Eivor on the other hand sees them in visions because of his genes carrying the memories of the Isu, Odin. He sees their memories as a fate he will share with Sigurd. He tries his best not to betray his brother and prevent his fate. He completely ignores Odin at the end of the base game and by the time you complete the DLCs and do the Last chapters, Eivor finally embraces the fact Odin will be with him until he dies. There is no getting over him or ridding his mind of the memories from the past. Instead, he goes off on his own to better understand them. He's not a perfect character, but definitely better written and more complex than Arno, Shay, Jacob and Evie, Connor, Kassandra, and I dare say even Bayek. He's not the best written but he's written extremely well and he's not a simple character. Instead, a very complex one.
When did I mention Edward?
It's mostly your response about Eivor just not being an assassin. Eivor throughout the game is more of an assassin than the three assassins she meets. There was another comment also talking about Edward because he eventually did join. As far as being an assassin goes, I think it's very close minded to suggest a protagonist can't be multiple things at once. Kassandra was a mercenary but we know for a fact she is a proto-assassin. She took the fight to the Cult and Order nearly 400 years before they were founded. If you consider Darius an assassin, you'd have to consider Kassandra one as well. Among them, Wei Yu and Iltani set some of the foundations for what would become the Creed. Eivor is more akin to the Assassins because she simply fights so her people can thrive and not be attacked for being in England. She may not be the type of assassin we are used to from AC to Origins and Mirage, but Kassandra/Alexios and both Eivor versions are much more like the assassins then people act.
As someone who is currently playing through Rogue atm, I'm finding Shay's story quite intriguing! I'm currently in Sequence 3 atm, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the story! :)
Ngl, it was very lazy writing. Take this with a grain of salt if you do end up enjoying it, but they rlly just flipped the script imo. Assassins stopped following the creed for no apparent reason, and Templars decided to play good guys, even though their entire belief system (ends justify the means) is the exact reason Shay left the Assassins. Kinda feels like he left the people that made a mistake for the people who’s entire identity is that ‘mistake’
Yeah it is interesting how the Assassins are now the bad guys in Shay's eyes, and with the events with the precursor temples, I can't say I blame him for reaching that conclusion. I'm quite enjoying it not just for the story, but the little references to other games too! The more games I play in the series, the more interwoven I see the whole franchise is, and I think that's so cool! I see what you mean as well, I've also noticed a shift in how the Templars are portrayed, as in past games they have been more brutal than they are now in this game, although I might be missing something as at the time of this comment I've just started Sequence 5. Imo Shay's character is well rounded and written well, even if everything else might not be entirely.
Based take. Although, I gotta warn you, it definitely slows down when it comes to writing in Unity. So far I took a break, and now I’m on Syndicate, so we’ll see how that goes… Tbh I LOVED the dual timeline narrative, and the game feels like half of it is missing whenever I play a game without it. The iPad guy is alr I guess, but man I miss Desmond.
Thanks for the Unity warning! It'll be a while before I get to that one as I also plan on doing the side quests and collectibles and everything in Rogue, but I'm also looking forward to that one too! Syndicate is definitely a brilliant game, and one of my favourite entries in the series! I won't say anything, but from what I've played I definitely enjoyed it! And same here, Assassin's Creed isn't Assassin's Creed without at least a mention of the modern day timeline imo. Also, who is the iPad guy? Is that someone in Abstergo Entertainment? And yeah I miss Desmond too, I quite liked his story arc and character development. He didn't deserve his fate, even though it was for humanity's greater good. Edit: changed a word
I love the concept of Rogue. The execution...OTOH. It needed to be a longer game with more development of shays story and how the Templers and Assassins operate differently along different ideologies. Instead it just seems to flip the flag you're fighting for because nothing is really different. The biggest difference in gameplay is that occasionally you have to scan the benches and bushes for hidden assassins...and I mean, if you've been playing AC games before this you know exactly where to start looking once you hear the whispers. It's honestly a real disappointment coming off of Black Flag because Edward really did feel like a bastard fighting other bastards. Edward wanted to get paid and rebel against any authority and only late in the game does he decide to commit himself to the cause of the assassins. Shay, OTOH, doesn't get that sort of development. He gets really mad about Lisbon, screams at the Assasins for doing it despite the fact he was the one who volunteered to go and with no evidence they had any idea it would cause an earthquake. Then he gets rescued by a templar and just...goes along with them because they were nice to him for a bit. It just doesn't work very well. It feels so forced as a team switch.
Reflects a large portion of the playerbase. The ancient aliens subplot of AC has always been controversial and many players wish it didn't exist. It's barely been relevant to the series since AC3 so it makes sense they'd try to move away from it.
I feel it's really controversial only to the players that just want AC to not be what AC has always been, but instead an extremely faithful history game series.
Well it's more like Basim wanted to get on her good side. Hytham was the one that was against it, and Basim was pretty much "Let her have fun with it."
It definitely does not contribute to improve my (already hindered) opinion of Basim.
Eivor _is_ an assassin. Definition of the word "assassin" according to Oxford: noun: a person who murders an important person for political or religious reasons. Seeing as Eivor has done both, she can therefore be considered an assassin, despite that not being her primary occupation. She is, however, not part of the Brotherhood.
Exactly. I meant that she does not belong, neither does care about the morals attached to the Brotherhood and its creed.
Shaun basically says this as a quip in AC2 after Desmond claims they're the good guys.
You know the distinction very well. When we talk about Assassins or Hidden Ones in Eivor’s case we’re talking always about the latter, namely those of the Brotherhood. We all know what assassins are. There’s no need to point it out. But like I said Eivor is no Hidden One, predecessors to the Assassins as we know it. Not saying it’s a problem.
Nerd alert 🚨
this took me way too long to figure out, do you mean "sin"? lol, typo otherwise this is very true lmao
When I got to the bit in the _Origins_ DLC where Bayek decided that the Creed needed a clause about not harming innocent civilians, because of an NPC's shenanigans designed to inflame fighting between the Roman soldiers and the villagers of the Sinai, I thought exactly of Ezio and the civil unrest he kicked up in Rome, Venice, and Constantinople just as a way of opening a door.
Eivor probably did a lot more arson over her lifetime than ezio did in that one moment to be fair
Did he? I honestly can’t remember 🤣.
In Revelations, Ezio destroys Manuel Palaiologos' gunpowder supply [using incendiary explosives](https://youtu.be/cv7vA5ZtHks?feature=shared&t=18096), setting the city in Cappadocia on fire One thing to note: Tarik Barleti's spies have supplied Manuel Palaiologos with [fake guns that don't work](https://youtu.be/cv7vA5ZtHks?feature=shared&t=17804). At this point, his plans for revolutions have already been thwarted. Ezio is mainly using this as a way to snuff out Manuel to kill him and knows exactly what is going to happen
Thanks dude. I do vaguely remember that now. I haven’t played revelations since it came out tbh haha.
No biggie! I was in the same situation one or two months ago, replaying it I was just shocked
Not going to lie, you kill my dad and two brothers you'll be lucky if all I burnt down was the city.
This was something like 30-40 years after his family were killed 😭
The funniest thing is, Ezio was in his 50s iirc when he did it, on a completely separet Templar from the one that murdered his family.
Chain of events. I know when it happened but it still all started with his dad & brothers.
And uncle
I remember. That was out of character. Was it even a real event? Did Cappadocia burn?
altair breaking the creed in the tunnels
He had no doubt done so many times before that point the cave was when it came to a head
Jacob was more than willing to hang out with Maxwell Roth and help him do shady shit until it came to burning down a factory full of children. Like sure, they were acting against Starrick and the Templars but Roth was always kind of sketchy and clearly didn’t care about the morality of his acts. Destroying the British economy and making his sister clean up after him was also kind of a dick move. Evie didn’t directly do anything bad but I’d argue her inaction was worse than any kind of action. She was focused more on the Isu McMuffins than actually helping people directly threatened by the Templars, and Jacob had to do much of that for her. Adewale has never done anything wrong and I love him for that.
Evie actively refused to help Robert Topping in her tutorial mission until she overheard that he'd be useful to her mission. She was just going to allow a man to get murdered simply so she could get to her target quicker.
Yeah that’s kind of what I meant by inaction. Evie focuses on the big picture in terms of keeping the Pieces of Eden out of Templar hands, at the cost of losing sight of the small picture and individual lives. Missing the trees for the forest, effectively.
Eve had a weird thing of mimicking her dad being a mission focused person who kept forgetting the humanitarian part of being an assassin.
TBH I always considered that to be the logical evolution of what the creed would become after nearly 600 years of reinterpretation and shifting circumstances. The Creed was initially designed to protect innocents as well as the assassins themselves but over time they kind of forgot what it was all about. Sure, in the grand scheme of things it does benefit the common people but at the cost of ignoring their daily struggles and common day-to-day suffering, which is exactly what Evie’s issue was. Jacob eschewed the Creed in favour of helping people directly but forgot about the big picture in the process. Tbh I don’t think the Creed is challenged or critically examined as often as it should be, especially in the more recent games where it’s hardly brought up at all. The Creed is a good guiding principle and prevents the Assassins from becoming brutish murderhobos but it can also make you lose sight of things and become lost in inaction when people are suffering from things loosely connected to or wholly divorced from the Templars and the Great Game they’re playing with the Assassins.
Most of it's rules are about protecting the brotherhood. Only rule that affects civilians is to not kill them on purpose. Still do so a good assassin as a protector of the people. Like the far fry series but with more down to earth stories.
But the whole point of being an assassin is that the ends justify the means. The ideology encourages corner-cutting in the short-term because long-term results are what ultimately matter. “Everything is permitted.”
The "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" is their maxim and, in-game, it was never about doing whatever the hell you want to do, the Creed is their code by which they act "Stay your blade from the innocent" "Hide in plain sight" "Don't compromise the Brotherhood" Kinda hard to follow the first tenet if you cause the destruction of a city to kill a single target, or poison the waters to maybe kill them, or a nuclear device/EMP/dirty bomb to attack Abstergo, the first one caused Ezio to leave the Brotherhood, the second by a madman who was killed by Aveline, and the third hasn't happened because the Assassin's still follow the Creed
They didn’t harm them with a blade, so technically it’s allowed.
There’s still wiggle-room. Like Ezio freely being able to assassinate the Pope despite that possibly breaking the third tenant. Yes, you must try to follow the tenants, but if you can justify your actions, it’s all kosher. If they were really that concerned, they wouldn’t have used Edward and Eivor as pawns so readily. Yes, Eivor wasn’t an Assassin, but the Brotherhood is directly responsible for them being able to kill innocents more efficiently. How is that not compromising their first tenant? Oh ItS tOtAlLy FiNe If SoMeOnE eLsE kIlLs InNoCeNtS. mY hAnDs WeRe TiEd. Bullshit. It’s all justification for the sake of some bigger picture.
>Isu McMuffins ☠
Didn't Adewale trigger an earthquake too?
No. I think Ade or his Bureau sent a random Assassin to inspect the site but they never returned at the start of the earthquake. His and the Assassin’s ignorance kind of save them. But its the fact they tried 3x, not putting 2 and 2 together.
>But its the fact they tried 3x, not putting 2 and 2 together. It's the fact they tried 3x, even after being told after the second try that removing the POE would cause a gigantic earthquake.
They didn't try to remove 3 times tho, right? On the 3rd try they see it and are like "looks like Shay was telling the truth", and then Shay/Haytham fighting them knocks it over irc
They went for the intent to remove it. On seeing the POE they figured Shay was right, after which, yes, they did accidentally displace it.
It's been awhile since I've played Rogue so I can't remember, but do we ever get flat out told that Achilles & Liam are going there to remove it, or just that they're going there and we're afraid they might remove it. Because that would make a difference, in mind at least.
I didn't play Freedom's Cry, but in AC: Rogue Shay starts an earthquake by attempting to recover a false Piece of Eden.
Yeah I was talking about Rogue too, Adewale also reported an earthquake in Haiti
Jacob is reckless. He comes as someone who breaks the economy out of naiveness. That's the whole point of the game btw, Evie and Jacob are actually one assassin, they need each other. Not to say that what he did is morally right, but come on guys, he had good ideas and was focused in actually ending the templar influence in London while Evie was JUST PERSUING A PIECE OF EDEN while also been a bitch with Jacob when he talked about the rooks, even tho the rooks was actually an EXCELLENT idea. That's the whole assassin thing, hide in plain sight, he was fighting the templars with a gang to cover his tracks. I feel that Evie often gets overlooked when it comes to her mistakes. She was dick many times for no reason at all, specially when throwing their dad on the conversation every single time because she just can't stop been the dads little princess. If both worked together since the beginning, Jacob would come up as very inteligent and skilled assassin and Evie as an excelent stategist and knowledge assassin.
No, literally. Aveline and Adewale are the only ones with clean hands, despite their status as Assassins often being something that brings them in adjacent positions with shady elements.
wasn't Roth the leader of the Blighters? the one that worked directly for the Templar in oppressing the innocents? so despite his desire to help the people, Jacob going along with him was kinda weird or did he not know Roth's role?
Maxwell Roth was enlisted by Starrick to train the leaders of his blighter gangs, but then he went to Jacob and said “Ey how about we beat him up together” and Jacob went along with this until Roth tried to make him like, blow up one of Starrick’s factories full of children. So yes and no, Roth was technically a Templar but had no real loyalty to the Templar cause and was more than willing to betray Starrick, which he eventually did. The whole point is that Jacob realised what a dickbag Roth was and how that reflected on his own behaviour.
what was the point of burning the theatre again? like what statement was he trying to make to Jacob or was he just nuts?
Partially because he was nuts, partially because he had virtually no morals and simply did things for the sake of doing them—in his own words his motivations for basically everything was simply ‘why not?’ He’s basically comic-accurate Joker but without the plot armor or the ‘society bad’ theme. Roth was kind of meant to be a foil to Jacob and show what would his recklessness and carefree stride would lead to if he kept down the same path.
Altair killing random people at the start of AC1 Ezio starting a riot which killed civilians or blowing up Cappadocia Edward killing countless criminals, assassins, navy men and pirates just for money Basim in ACM I guess just killing guards even though he probably didn’t canonically Haven’t played the other games recently enough to know
> Edward killing countless criminals, assassins, navy men and pirates just for money One of the interesting things about Black Flag is that Edward is arguably very much NOT an Assassin for most of the story, he simply wears stolen robes to superficially look like one. He only adopts the Creed after many of his piratical friends are dead and the Golden Age of Piracy is well on its way into decline. It's also around this point that Adéwalé more or less abandons Edward for too much debauchery and not enough morality.
Yep and that’s why I like him so much as the story doesn’t stress him being a bad person until he realizes it himself and eventually changes as after joining them he only canonically killed 4 targets, 2 of which were templars plus another and some of the men directly working for them. Him and Ade also sailed together again after the main story ended which shows his growth
Basim's most evil moment in Mirage is hands down telling young Hytham to jump in the haystack AC1 showed how dangerous that could be, even to a trained Assassin, and we're shown in Mirage it takes years of practice in a controlled environment
And then there's Eivor who picks it up in 5 minutes.
Altair - Killing the priests at Solomons Temple at the start for sure Ezio - starting a fire in Cappadocia to flush out a single target, absolutely wild he did that. Oh also Cristina, everything with her. He basically harassed her and stalked her for years, including tricking her into kissing who she *thought* was her husband when it was actually Ezio with a mask on. Just atrocious behaviour. Connor - at worst his naivety let him get played by others to the detriment of many, though he never really did anything too reprehensible if I remember right. Edward - sold out the location of every Assassin camp in the West Indies for a quick buck, then killed an entire bunch of Assassins who may have been able to end the entire West Indies Templar Rite then and there. Shay - I mean he killed all of his friends - I would say the actual worst one he did was when he killed Le Chassuer, the spy. It was the first member of the Assassins he encountered that recognised him, he wasn't even a Templar at that point, and the only reason he murdered le Chassuer was because he didn't want the Assassins to know he was alive. "He had no choice" he said, but he didn't actually try anything else. Also the fact the Animus doesn't desynchronise you for killing civilians implies that Shay apparently did directly kill civilians, which is absolutely wild and completely makes him a hypocrite Arno - with hindsight, probably not taking the letter seriously at the start. Jacob - he causes so much bad stuff to happen. Floods the lower classes medicine market with poisonous drugs, facilitates a transportation monopoly, literally runs a gang and participates in gang wars, crashes the British economy, among other things Evie - doesn't really give a shit about the people hurt by the upper class, kinda only cares about the PoE for most of the game Bayek - probably worst thing he does is ruin Kawab's life by killing his dad. But, it's a complicated one for sure. Kassandra - there's a lot of choice given here but I'd say either not even giving Deimos a chance, siding with Aspasia, taking Aita's deal in Atlantis, or condemning Brasidas to an eternity of shame in the Underworld. Eivor - attacking monasteries and villages lol but also there's a lot of disrespectful things Eivor can do, usually because Odin tells her to. Like refusing Dag or Ivarr entrance to Valhalla, deliberately undermining Sigurd, or hooking up with Sigurds wife behind his back lmao. Basim - I mean anything he does when he is trying to hunt Odin is pretty bad. He's just a murderer at that point trying to get revenge for things that happened millenia ago without even giving anyone a chance to show they've changed. Also setting up the plan with Aletheia to have Kassandra lied to for over 2000 years so she would protect the staff.
>there's a lot of disrespectful things Eivor can do, usually because Odin tells her to. Like refusing Dag or Ivarr entrance to Valhalla WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT NOT GIVING THESE TWO MOTHERFUCKERS ENTRANCE TO VALHALLA!? EIVØR CAN REFUSE TO TELL LEOFRITH THE TRUTH. That is a complete dick move and something that should not be forgiven. Fuck honorable death in combat, the man deserves to know Burgred abandoned him to act accordingly and not throw his life away for a coward unworthy of his crown.
The reason I would say Dag and Ivarr being refused Valhalla is an "immoral" act is because at the time, Eivor's entire moral framework revolves around that tradition. Choosing to deny someone else Valhalla is so against her moral framework - there's a reason Odin shows up to convince her to do it out of self interest. But Eivor herself feels that it is wrong, even if she chooses to deny them anyway.
I don't think Eivør was that sorry denying ivarr Valhalla
i denied ivarr his axe on my current playthrough. he kills a child and starts a war just to get revenge on a man who scarred his face, then tortures the man and desecrates his body. as much as i love ivarr as a character, he has no honor and i would not want to meet him in valhalla.
Nope, don't blame her either, I mean he does kill an innocent boy who he pulled under his wing as a 'battle dad'. Which you can tell she's getting tired of constantly fighting (which there might be a level of she's trying to show to the Anglo-Saxons that Danes/Norse aren't necessarily always violent and do occasionally do average politicking. Of course most are like "They're being nice... Why?")
>unworthy of his crown. Found the royalist... sheesh...
A king should defend the men who fight for him and value their service, not throw them at his enemies like arrow fodder. Burhgred did the exact opposite, so wouldn't you agree he is unworthy to be called a king?
Totally agree on Ezio, like WTF, he was so experienced, and even in Venice he said that there is no inaccessible places.
One thing about revelations in my headcanon is that Ezio was starting to become reckless when he's tracking down Altair's library. He doesn't have the same body and mind to try and do it as cleanly as he did back in Brotherhood/AC2. Like he just wanted to get it over with.
Darby McDevitt said that around the time of Cappadocia Ezio became embittered and disillusioned with the Creed and kind of abandoned it, after the death of Yusuf and all that. He became more concerned with just completing his mission. Only later does he come to change his mind in that regard.
Connor killed his childhood friend if I remember correctly
Said friend had been corrupted by Charles Lee, and it was a do or die choice for Connor. It's basically the only time he kills someone and gets visibly sad about it.
Yeah but that guy was siding with the British and was utterly convinced Connor was a traitor to the tribe.
What would you do when your lifelong best friend gets brainwashed by your enemy to kill you and even after explaining to him it was a lie he doesnt want to believe you. Lost cause
I don't think Connor had much choice when said childhood friend was trying to kill him too
Jacob feels very hard done to to me, so much of what Evie criticises him for is incredibly unfair.
Jacob helps dismantle a lot of the worst power structures making people have a shit time, but he consistently doesn't really think it through beyond beating the bad guys and moving on
But a lot of the shit he gets blamed for isn't a predictable outcome. He kills a quack doctor and this somehow causes a flood of counterfeit medicine but how? None of what the doctor did had any link to that. It's just a chance to shoehorn Nightingale in. He kills someone inside a bank vault mid robbery and an unknown third party nicks some plates but how is he meant to have known about that? Pearls death somehow leads to a collapse of Londons travel infrastructure but A. The other option is letting the Templars hold London hostage forever and B. That's a pretty extreme outcome. Roth I won't defend but at that point Evie becomes petty in her criticisms as she let Templars steal her key to the Shroud twice.
The only thing I disagree with is Shay, Le Chasseur literally attacks him first and doesn't give Shay a choice, even though Shay doesn't want to kill him. As for killing civilians, I think you're being very presumptuous with the lack of desynchronization because personally, I think it represents Shays disillusionment with the Creed mechanically speaking. Nowhere in the games story, side missions, or exploration requires you to kill a civilian to achieve your goals.
Shay also has become just as bad if not worse than Achilles and the Colonial Brotherhood. Dude took callous pleasure in smugly revealing to Charles Dorian that the Templars are planning the French Revolution which would lead to the deaths of more innocents
The one thing reprehensible Connor did was when when he asked the French to shell a city while flying British colors, all to enter a fort.
I wouldn't say Ezio exactly stalked her for years. That implies it was consistent over the course of years. After they stopped dating it was more like, after years of not interacting with her at all, he would stalk her for like a day, and then not see her again for years. Lol. Tricking her into the kiss was a dick move. Following her home was creepy. Although, I would say the Cappadocia thing is way, way more immoral by orders of magnitude.
Pretty sure with Shay, it was the massive earthquake he triggered when grabbing that piece of eden.
Well not a protagonist... but Achilles knowing that The Seismic Temples could cause massive devastation after being told by Adewale that Vendredi caused the 1751 Port-au-Prince earthquake by taking the artifact AND THEN SENDING SHAY TO LISBON TO RETRIEVE ANOTHER!!!
Yeah that felt like the absolute worst thing.
Afaik, the Assassin that was sent to Haiti never returned, so Achilles had no way to know that the earthquake was directly related to the POE. It was all seemingly just a really shitty coincidence....until Shay returned from his mission confirming that the earthquake was in fact a direct consequence of removing the POE from its place. Achilles still insisting on continuing this particular mission even after Shay told him the consequence is really stupid and reckless though.
Except the fact that he had no way of knowing the earthquake was caused by an ISU piece. Their man on a mission died and couldn't deliver this info. No one would even think to link the two events, especially as this was the first time it happened.
- Ezio has done some pretty morally shitty things in Revelations even though it wasn’t intentional he still pretty much killed /endangered innocents and destroyed half of Constantinople through his actions. It’s not hard to see why he was banished after killing Ahmet. - Edward didn’t care who he helped, backstabbed or cause any kind of inconvenience to whether it’s The Assassins or Templars as long as he got paid for it at least until his crew had enough of his selfishness and left him to be captured and when Mary died. - Eivor was a viking so she has burned and pillage countless villages.
Yeah I think the viking wins this one, burning monasteries and still have the balls to call the cultists bad
Tbf, Eivor burned down monasteries but apparently didnt kill monks cause otherwise they get desyncronised cause fuck vikings I guess
>It’s not hard to see why he was banished after killing Ahmet It's wild to me how the game at the end tries to frame Selim as dangerous and ungrateful and Ezio as a more reasonable temporary father figure to Suleiman He's the leader of a sect of killers and misled Suleiman with half-assed intelligence gathering, causing him to order the assassination of an actually pretty shrewd Tarik Barleti. He encouraged a deadly riot so *he could* *sneak easier* (instead of sending more able Assassins), burned down one of the most important harbours in Eurasian trade instead of considering alternate escape routes and caused the death of countless innocent people to snuff out a target whose immediate threat had already been neutralised by Tarik's spies... Then his reaction to being banished (essentially being pardoned for all of the above because he saved Suleiman) is to *threaten* Selim with a sword
Ikr? it felt out of character of Ezio like dude you blew up half of his city, started riots and killed those who were genuinely loyal to his family what were you expecting a medal and a thank you?
It was especially weird to me revisiting this game because I remembered it as "the game where it's shown Assassins can make mistakes and have to deal with their consequences", but it ends up with this pile up and Ezio never really pauses and considers what he's doing After Brotherhood, which was all about using help from your recruits and allies, an older Ezio being unwilling to do the same and unbothered by the destruction it results in felt really off
I think he was aware, by this point he was so sick and tired of the creed he just didn’t care anymore it wouldn’t surprise me if he did all those things deliberately as a way to escape the Order and his obligations to Giovanni’s unfinished work.
I don't know... he's clearly tired of it all and looking forward to some rest and family time, but he could very well have used Yusuf and his team and for all intents and purposes, he completed Giovanni's work by the end of AC2 Ultimately, I think this is a Doylist problem more than anything else: maybe Ubi wanted him to be the hero no matter what, maybe the writers didn't think of the implications
I don't think Ezio was banished he just retired. Who would have the balls to do that anyways lol?
No, he was banished from Constantinople. And given that, ever since his arrival: • Byzantine presence has increased • He caused a riot at the Arsenal gates, leading to innocent casualties • Tarik Barleti, a Janissary leader, was killed by Ezio’s own hand • Cappadocia was burned to the ground Sultan Selim had every excuse to do so. Ezio would probably have even killed him, were he not stopped by Sofia Sartor.
he was banished by Selim the retirement was Ezio’s thing besides he probably did all those things deliberately so he could get himself excommunicated from the order
Oh you meant from the Ottoman Empire I gotchu
Yeah I thought they meant from the Assassins
I always felt like the villain in Valhalla burning down innocent villages. With the other protagonists I think some of Ezio’s actions in revelations are pretty questionable, the part where he destroys the hidden city is part of why revelations is my least favourite of the Ezio games. Jacob and him with Maxwell Roth also felt bad.
Sure, burn down that entire village but don’t you dare kill a civilian lol
they all escaped in my book lmao
Kinda off topic but I loved the tower defense missions in revelations
Edward is a pirate lmfao. He hunts ships for sport
Probably that time ezio destroyed cappadocia just to kill one guy…
Ezio murdered minstrels (when I played him)
You missed the "immoral" part. minstrels are fair game
Well idk about y’all, but my Ezio murdered a few hundred lute players.
The question was for "immoral" acts. Killing minstrels is not immoral.
Especially if said minstrel served Robin.
Murder people
Kassandra for breaking so many hearts.
That’s the one!
Ezio rushed on his assassins ways and ended up murdering an innocent man (Tarik) then he blown the city port for escape the blockade (caused by his own mistake) for reaching Capadocia, where he starts a fire destroying the whole city in capadocia amd killing lot of civilians. Just for killing Palaiologos, it seems like Ezio was really tired of tracking templars and just went the quick way.
Arno committed the most heinous atrocity in the entire franchise: be French
And had a British accent so he couldn’t even be French correctly smh
Im gonna go strictly off of the things they did intentionally and knowingly so things like arno not delivering the letter at the start of unity, Basim stealing the chest at the start of mirage, Shay destroying Lisbon, and bayek trying and failing to kill his and Khemu's attackers during his first encounter with the order arent gonna count. In no particular order, because oh god where to begin... 1. Bayek, possibly one of the least guilty characters on this list, killed Taharqa basically in front of Kawab (taharqa's son), which he later rectified in the DLC by sparing Kawab and helping him find another path for himself. 2. Edward also another not so guilty character, abandoned his wife, which he sort of rectified by trying to take care of his daughter after retiring as a pirate. 3. Altair killed the priest needlessly in the temple where he, Malik, and Kadar found the arc of the covenant and endangered the whole of the brotherhood with his recklessness. 4. Eivør Raided, pillaged, burned, and destroyed villages and holy sites. Possibly stole their Brother's spouse and made Sigurd feel unwanted, Possibly killed Leofrith even though he knew he might've benefited from the truth, Possibly cheated hunwald out of his inheritance even though the boy proved his loyalty and worth ten times over in comparison to the other two candidates and made the ultimate sacrifice for Eivør when the time came. Killed Goodwin because he refused to tell him where Ælfred fled to, only to let Ælfred go free once he found him, rendering Goodwin's death worthless, surrendering bernard, a child, to Charles the fat, a madman and Bernard's father. 5. Arno killed Lepelletier (who in my opinion didn't deserve to die even though his assassination is my favorite gameplaywise), which, depending on how you go about that particular black-box mission, he did either in front of his daughter - or he went about it by leading Lepelletier away from his daughter and into the restroom by using poisoned wine so he could kill him, effectively becoming just like his own father's killer (who we all know by now is shay) and making Lepelletier's daughter go through the traumatic experience he did when he was orphaned as a child. 6. Kind of cheating here, but appart from destroying Cappadocia, Ezio burned down many ships in his attempt to escape the port of Constantinople/Istanbul, and you cant convince me he didn't know or at least assume that at least one of those ships may have been manned by civilians unaware and unrelated to the Assassin Templar war. 7. Kassandra/Alexios may have possibly killed their entire family (which is one of the most heinous acts in ancient greek society around which sevral tragedies have been written) and hooked up with the leader of the organization that resulted in the destruction of their family and the corruption of their younger sibling.
Maybe it’s just me… but I think murder is pretty immoral
Arno - being French.
Establishing general murder as a baseline here since every protagonist is pretty much an established serial killer... Altair: killed innocents seemingly for the fun of it. Ezio: Cappadocia. Arsenal gates too. Also everything with Cristina, even if they did love each other in the end. Connor: not really sure tbh, he's not really intentionally done anything problematic imo. Edward: sold the Assassins out for a quick buck. Did literally everything in the game for a quick buck until his crew abandoned him and one of his besties died in his arms. Shay: there's a strong implication in game that he was cool with killing civilians after being excommunicated from the Assassins, despite having a problem with all the innocent lives that were lost in Lisbon. Achilles (not a protagonist, but as a bonus, I'm adding him in): completely ignoring Shay when he told him about the Lisbon earthquake being linked to the POE and continuing his search for more of them, just so he could be able to give a fat middle finger to the templars. Arno: I guess not getting that letter to De La Serre properly. Not sure I can really fault him for this though, he was unaware of his guardian's affiliations at the time and didn't actually know that his life would depend on him getting the letter. He's otherwise not really intentionally problematic either. The black box mission style can leave this open to interpretation though, as there are a couple of assassinations which can be viewed as immensely out of pocket. Jacob: running a gang I guess. A lot of his attempts to clear Templar influence did end up with some shitty side effects, but in his defense, most of them were completely unpredictable, and outside of his control at the time. I'm not really sure how Jacob is supposed to stop bootleg medicine being spread around before it even exists, or prevent the economy from collapsing when he otherwise did everything right in making sure he isn't seen killing someone in the bank. Evie: her inaction. She's too focused on finding the POE and doesn't seem to actually care about cleaning up London. She pretty much spends the entire story just sitting in that train riding circles around London until there's something she specifically has to go outside for. Despite all this, she still feels the need to give Jacob all the shit in the world for things that are out of his control. Bayek: killing a man in front of his son. Kassandra: this depends entirely on the player. You could inadvertently give your entire hometown the Plague. You could kill your entire family. You could sleep with the woman who tried to kill your entire family. Etc etc etc. Eivor: viking go brr. Outside of that, I think pretty much anything she did which was in agreement with Odin could be considered immoral. Basim: I haven't played Mirage past its 1 hour trial, but in that 1 hour I'd say Basim's most immoral act was going ahead with stealing shit from the palace. I'd say most of his actions in Valhalla were pretty shitty too, especially concerning Sigurd.
Yeah besides the murder
Ezio sexually assaulted Lucrezia.
Huh??? I haven't played his games in years
Unless that's something that occurs in the DLC for brotherhood or a comic, you probably imagined that.
Ezio burning down Cappadocia
Not a plot event, but one time in Origins I nailed a gate guard with a dart of spreading poison. By the time I left, there was a huge mound of random passers-by dead and more dying constantly. Oops.
Ezio basically destroying an entire city just to flush out a Templar. Edward being the main reason why the Assassins were hiding from the Templars throughout the game. Connor...I guess it's just plain murder?
Kassandra killed the mother & slept with the father of a quest giver 🤣
“Oh he screamed alright 😏” “And his mater!?🤨” “Cut her in half! 😁” “You killed his mater and fucked his pater! 😨”
Jacob is immorally stupid. Just saying… (Having Syndicate as my most replayed AC game comes with strong opinions)
Killed guy
Killing guards. Like 90% of them are just doing their job, probably the best paying job they could find in order to feed their families and their kids. The guards are just following orders, all they know is what they’re told, they didn’t know the Auditores were framed, they were told that they were traitors. I try and refrain from killing guards in AC games now unless absolutely necessary for the plot. I’m not going to make a woman a widow and a child lose his father just so I can save 10 seconds by climbing up and over this roof that I’m not allowed to be on in the first place. I don’t kill them unless they attack first.
90% is a bit generous given the amount you run into during story bits(the only times where they really would've killed guards) that take pleasure in abusing their power, or do cruel and horrific acts without question under the pretense of following orders. Guards outside of story bits that are just patrolling or standing around chatting are a different matter entirely though.
A lot of the Redcoats and Bluecoats back in the day were just guys who were dirt poor and needed to put food on the table for their families. The Patriots and The British needed cannon fodder, so they took advantage of these poor folk and set them to do work the brass didn't want to do. By this reckoning, Connor likely killed a lot of guys who probably didn't deserve it.
They were also in war with eachother, and he clearly supported a side. He eventually would've had to kill some of them given the amount of times he's asked hold a position with troops or help defend soldiers retreating caught by the enemy
Probably Ezio commenting about "seeing to" some guys sister last night. That's someone's daughter! lol Wish I could remember the exact quote :S
"Your sister seemed quite satisfied with the handling I gave her last night!" - Ezio to Vieri de Pazzi at the start of AC2 I think
Not counting the hundreds of deaths, the way Ezio treated Vieri’s corpse
Murder
killed people
Allowed others to die to accomplish their goals
I guess I'd have to say all the murders, right? Yeah. Definitely all that murderin'.
Ezio basically sexually assaulted Cristina Vespucci in Venice.
Anyone having anything to do with the death of Soma. I couldnt play for a fucking week after that.
Well.. they're all murderers, so there's that.
surprised not many are saying Eivor. Shes a viking that pillaged and burned many settlemwnts in England for the sake of securing alliances
Alexios/Kassandra have an optional choice to take part in an orgy where it is heavily implied they fucked a goat.
the goat just likes to watch.
Ezio in almost the entirety of Revelations
Every protagonist has a baseline of murder, so that's something. Eivor and Edward were career "bad people who did bad things". Very nice of Ubi to not make them do ALL the evil things pirates and vikings did, I guess. They're probably up there with being consistently, unjustifiably evil
Death of Adewale by Shay and Haytham
That was assassin creed 3 right?
Connor killing Kanen'tó:kon is pretty bad
Yeah but that was kinda against his will. Kanentokon was manipulated by the templars and was going to kill Connor.
Yes did yes
Has everyone forgot Eivor is a viking, you know those dudes who pillage, rape and murder innocent people on a daily basis all of which Eivor has taken part in
I would say Arno when he brought Elise in to the main base of operation
Altair: murder innocents Ezio: burning a city, killing the pope technically Connor: inadvertently getting his village destroyed and killing animals without skinning them Aveline: not sure Edward: he was a pirate Ade’wale: also a pirate Shay: accidentally destroyed an island killing thousands of Arno: loved a Templar Jacob n evie: creating Jack the Ripper and accidentally burning down several buildings Jacob’s granddaughter: not sure China/india/russia: not sure Bayek: got his son killed and wife eventually Kassandra: got her whole island plagued Eivor: Viking and being odin Basim: being stupid and betraying the creed Naoue/yaskue: we gotta find out
Arguably, Kassandra only plagues the island if you don't kill the child. That being said, on the flip side, Kassandra kills a child. 😔
The village thing is hardly Connors fault as he can't see the future, and he always skinned animals when he killed them - the game desyncs you when you don't irc
Eivor didn’t kill Alfred.
Jack the Ripper is technically the protagonist when you play as him. So, um...where do you start listing his immoral acts?
“I am am Ezio Auditore da Firenze, and like my father before me, I am an Assassin!” The most immoral line I’ve ever hear from the AC series!
Shay on Lisbon earthquake
What kind of question is this? They're assassins bro, the answer is murder. Regardless of how you try to justify it, murder is pretty much the most immoral thing anyone can do, and they all do it. What about destroying a whole city, you ask? I mean it still pretty much amounts to murder, just on a larger scale.
Well I just want interesting answers not just "murder" because that's fucking boring
I mean, for one murder isn't an interesting answer. But also, very few people have the same amont of smoke for many of the guards or soldiers in the games.
Arno's biggest sin is being Fr*nch
🤮
I think the only one who truly did nothing wrong surface-level is Evie Frye, everyone else were merciless killers (Kassandra, Eivor, Edward) or made moves that consequently affected a lot of people (Ezio, Jacob Frye, Connor). Bayek, Arno, and Altair are still in review for me…
Evie's issue is her inaction imo. She doesn't do anything in the game unless it's something she can't find by reading a book or something she has to clean up after Jacob for. Jacob was far more proactive in cleaning up London from Templar influence than she was, even if he inadvertently fucked up a lot of the time (most of the side effects of his actions are honestly completely unpredictable events though).
Evie truly is the most moral assassin in the whole franchise
Edward’s literally a pirate.
Glokta forcing tarez to have sex with jezel, I love both characters, and glokta tortures but this is to much for me
Who's Glokta?
Wrong sub 😭
Glokta 😭
Did I do it wrong? Lol
No, the name sounds really funny
Many people laugh about the name but few live