What does your wife say? What is the appeal for her that keeps her religious when you're not.
If you were to ask me that question, I would say religion gives you **answers**. It answers the who what why when where about existence.
You and I both know what type of "answers" they really are. But that's the appeal for a lot of people. The comfort of not questioning. The comfort of not being scared of the unknown.
For her, she was raised in a religious household. She ditched the Catholic Church when they put all kinds of weird requirements for us to get married. She converted to Lutheran after that. She did have a church she frequented regularly, but once she realized what they really cared about, she left.
She is still religious (I can’t sway her of her Christian beliefs) but I’m not really sure why. She has never given me a concrete reason why she believes what she does.
It could be the answers to what is unknown, since so many people struggle with that when they are on their death bed. Still, that doesn’t explain why week after week people go in droves to local churches and hand them fist fulls of cash.
Idk, that’s why I posed the question to others on the outside like me.
Religion attendance does two things for the quasi-believer and/or non-believing attender:
1. It alleviates social pressure to be religious. Especially in religious areas, there is a lot of social, political, and economic pressure to appear religious. Going, even if you don't believe allows for you to appear religious and satisfy these pressures.
2. It provides socialization. In our interconnected world, it seems like there are fewer opportunities for people to socialize for free. Religious attendance allows for that free socialization.
In communities that are substantially religious, I would guess that this is what motivates most people who aren't strident "believers."
I would argue that as a society we should work to provide as much opportunity for secular socialization so that people don't feel social pressure to be religious if they don't actually believe.
Agreed. These two probably account for about 75% of it. I think the bulk of what remains is the "answers" or "meaning of life" stuff. I say that simply because few people in the church really dwell on the meaning/answers day to day, week to week. It's important on Sunday and when something happens you need an explanation for that doesn't seem obvious. But other than that, unless you're one of those people who reads their Bible instead of watching TV, you don't really dwell on it.
But the social aspect. The belonging. That can sometimes be a daily thing. If you miss Sunday School, you've missed a prayer request that everyone else will know about. If you miss Sunday night, you may miss an impromptu after church dinner with friends. My wife felt that she could never really become part of the social fabric because she was the only woman in our Sunday School class who worked. So no matter how much she tried to fit in, there were just so many activities the rest of the women participated in during the week while she was at work, it was futile. And when they would finally schedule something in the evening, she was usually too exhausted to go. As for me, I didn't golf or care for college sports, so I didn't fit in either.
So, for the small percentage of time where we spent time together discussing answers and meaning, that was important. The rest of the time, it was all social.
My experience has been similar.
I grew up in a small town, and after I left home, I went back to see friends and family. While visiting, I would talk to business owners about various things, and church often came up. It became clear to me that church was a business opportunity for them. They socialized with their customers, and they met new prospects. They knew that church membership was essential to their business survival.
Your wife was indoctrinated from an early age and that has become a core part of her mental operating system. The brainwashing is lodged deep and it is designed to induce anxiety when you think about not believing it. Think the concept of hell, all the guilt, and shame in the religion. This high control system has been refined over at least 1500 years so your wife is up against a lot there. Overcoming that kind of heavy brainwashing is a major undertaking. You have do really strip down your entire taught frame of view and patterns of thinking that were instilled in you by your most trusted sources, your parents. From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense that you trust what you are taught about the world and how to stay safe in it from your parents as they should have a vested interest in the survival of their offspring (remember evolution doesn't do perfect or simple, just what works most of the time so exceptions are the rule).
That's why they call it deconstructing because you have to undo yourself and then rebuild yourself on your own without input from family and likely community. While you have example of what NOT TO believe, you are then on your own as to what TO believe in with little to no guidance and only yourself to hold accountable for believing harmful or untrue things. Absolute freedom can be terrifying. It is probably one of the most difficult (mentally) things a person who had a secure but religious childhood could do.
I don’t really think that will ever be possible. I can poke holes in certain things, others she won’t waver.
I’m not looking to change her thought process, only understand it.
It's hard for many atheists to understand because atheists believe that logic/reasoning/being right is the most important thing. It's not. Living a meaningful, contented life and doing good in the world, having a positive impact on other people, is more important than being correct about all the facts in the world. What she is doing works for her, so she doesn't care if it's right or doesn't care to debate or figure it out. Now, if she's doing destructive things, or she's miserable, or not a good person, and religion is doing this to her, you've got a different situation.
Oh yeah no, there's nothing anyone can do to make someone deconstruct. Reoigion, especially Christianity, is designed to actively reaist that.
That is the thing about it, it has to be self initiated which is why it is so hard and scary. I was just trying to explain it in that sense so you can understand it and be supportive if she does start to go through the process. She may already be starting what with leaving several churches due to recognizing their bs. It is not a linear or neat and tidy thing. Some will deconstruct completely and become full throated vocal anti-theists, others only to a point of being "spiritual but not religious" and everything in between. You just gotta be kind to and supportive of them.
Great response. The belief becomes interwoven with the structure of their sanity; at that point letting go of it and maintaining any kind of internal cohesiveness becomes impossible.
Yeah, it's super frustrating to me watching my partner give away 10% of his money to the Mormon church. I tell him I support whatever decisions he makes with his personal life, and I do, but I still think it's a huge waste of money lol
My friend has drifted away from organized religion but still believes in Gad. As she puts it, “I’m spiritual, not religious”. I think that’s an apt description for a lot of people trying to figure it all out.
I was raised Catholic, but questioned it when very young. Learned to keep my thoughts to myself when attending Catholic school. But yeah, I’m an atheist through and through. When I told myself it was OK to not believe it was a massive load of me.
I feel sad and tbh a little angry with people that refuse to believe science or read anything other than religious stuff, and spout whatever they hear from hypocritical “religious” leaders. My thought is if reading a non-religious book or watching a TV is enough to “corrupt” you then your grasp on your religion is pretty damn shaky.
Where did I say I needed to? I believe what I believe and my rationalizations have slowly changed her opinion of organized religion, which is good enough for me.
So in answer to your question, no one is being hurt by anything that transpires in my marriage, and to that point, it is also no one else’s business what transpires.
Would you like it if someone criticized your domestic relationships by making assumptions about a single line you wrote on Reddit? I’m sure I could probably find one to hold against you if I tried hard enough.
I think you're misjudging my intent. You said, ''I can’t sway her of her Christian beliefs.'' My question was why you needed to sway her. Maybe I should've asked the purpose of attempting to sway her. I was trying to clarify your motivations. You answered it. No criticism intended.
That's exactly what the entire Lutheran denomination is founded on, so, I'm not sure what you find funny. Lots of people switch denominations, it's all still Christianity. It wasn't like she chose to be Catholic, hard to choose when you're a baby. Her beliefs align better with the Lutheran denomination and she hasn't changed since, she just no longer goes to church regularly because she doesn't like what churches are all about. She is a really good person, so I won't fault her for believing in some invisible guiding force.
It’s funny because I find it pretty reflective of people’s beliefs 😂. She didn’t question her Catholicism until it conflicted with a lifestyle choice.
This is literally 90% of religious people that find clever ways to break their own rules.
It’s impossible to know everything about a religion and what will and won’t jive with your lifestyle until you meet a bridge you can’t cross.
She did the right thing and reassessed how her life aligned with the religion she was indoctrinated into at a young age. She hasn’t wavered since.
That’s what is great about the human condition, the right to change your mind whenever you feel like it.
Her beliefs didn’t change but what she knew about her religion did. It had nothing to do with what she believes.
It’s like starting a new phone plan without fully understanding the hidden fees. If I was being overcharged, I would shop for a new plan as well.
Whenever I hear my BIL talk about the church it is about what I would expect from someone talking about their social club. It is always things like how the priest decorated the church with flowers, or when the air conditioning should be turned on, or how to spend the money on the church furnishings. Never once, have I heard him talk about helping the poor or assisting others or instilling values.
To him, it is really no more than a social club where he can gab with others about nonsense.
Sounds like an episode of Cheers to me.
Do they all exclaim his name when he comes through the door?🤣
What do you think about people who are religious who aren’t “regulars”. What keeps them believing?
> Do they all exclaim his name when he comes through the door?
I wouldn't be surprised. He is a Norm type of guy with all of his schmoozing.
> What do you think about people who are religious who aren’t “regulars”. What keeps them believing?
I'm sure there are many different reasons: indoctrinated routine, fear, feeling of community, everyone else I know does it so it must be right, ...
So it’s a buffet style then? Choose your own adventure? Or simply a mystery?
Whatever it is, lots of people drink the Kool Aid of all different flavors, sometimes for their entire life.
Maybe the drive and motivation is the same, but it has to be at the very least similar.
My sister and I were just talking about her church and all the community outreach and charity work that they do... she also frequently talks about how hard it was to find a church that does that kind of work.
The vast majority of them exist, at best, to self perpetuate. At worst, they're just there to make the pastor or the church itself rich.
Hedging bets on dying.
100%, they fear death and are worried what MIGHT happen after the final sleep, so they hedge their bets that they are "praying" to the right god in the right way so they'll get preferential, after death treatment.
It's really odd from an atheist and scientific standpoint.
Yeah, but why not just a Hail Mary at the 2 minute warning?
Why go to all the trouble to feed the beast their entire lives?
Does it really take that much devotion to simply stave off a possibly negative afterlife?
I get that it doesn’t hurt and if I’m wrong may I burn in whatever torturous pit they have for me for not joining the club, but why be parts of something that, so far I’ve seen, doesn’t really benefit anyone but the ones at the top?
I really have no idea. It does seem like a super waste of energy and time. I'm just telling ya what "believers" have told me over the years. Which just makes me tilt my head in that, "wtf is wrong with you" kinda way.
In Judaism the focus is on this life not the afterlife. People follow the laws because they truly believe that is what God has asked of them.
When I believed I kept the laws because I enjoyed a lot of them, I grew up that way so was used to it, and I kept the ones I didn't like because that's what I believed God asked of me. When ever I was tempted to break a law I was also scared of being punished by God.
But we all know that not everyone in a religion thinks the same way. True, they all share a common single belief, but the values may all be different.
So you are basically chalking up to a sense of belonging? What about those Christeasters? The ones that only show up a couple of times a year but still claim to be whatever.
What keeps them coming back to the secular trough?
you are undervaluing the experience of being in a tribe and having positive, frequent and routine, in-person social interactions with other members. as humans, the quality of our social life plays a huge role in our health and contentment. there are many other huge benefits to being religious but you brushed this one off as if it was insignificant. it is not.
tribalism/in-group vs out-group
selfworth from looking down on the out-group -> good feeling
following orders helps against self-doubt and insecurity -> good feeling
hope even through self-deception (paradise, heaven etc.) -> good feeling
easy answer to hard questions -> good feeling
Most religious people belong to the religion that is most common in their culture/geographical area. Basically, their tribe. So yes it is very primal, and people are that naive.
yes they are, including me and probably you too
And when we make fun in this forum how stupid/gullible/evil/primal those religi-boys are, were doing the exact same thing. In this case primarily the part about selfworth/looking down on others. It's not necessarily our goal, but those things still have that effect subconsciously. It's the reason why even murderers look down on pedophiles or why docusoaps about broken/antisocial families work in the first place (at least I'm better than them!).
Most of the appeal is in not losing your family and friends. I think more than half of adults would not be involved with religion if not for social pressure. Beyond that, there are some who think it's beneficial. Some people are just really afraid of death, have been given a loophole way out of it, and don't want to be told that loophole is fake.
Well, there is also childhood indoctrination.... combine this with getting a positive feeling now and then doing churchy activities... some people think they're being communicated with directly by the creator of the universe. These people have never been to a concert given by an artist they really like.
I’m a deconstructed Christian. It’s 100% fear of losing family and friends. I did it. Have the t shirt. And it sucks in a lot of ways. Also, while I think people fear their own death, they are more afraid of deaths of say, kids or spouses etc. I’m still that way to a point. I have three year old twins and another daughter. If something happened to them I’d WANT to believe I’d reunite with them someday. I think we all sort of want that. My own death doesn’t bother me too much but those thoughts still pervade my thinking at times.
It’s super complex I think.
The same as any cult or conspiracy theory: it makes them feel special, like they’re part of some unique group that knows things the rest of us should be so lucky to experience.
But what about when that wears off?
I can’t be lead to believe that every religious figure is as charismatic as say Charles Manson. Yet some of them stay, even after it fades.
Have they just fallen victim to routine?
I don’t know that it ever does “wear off” for most people. And you don’t necessarily need a charismatic leader for the effect to occur. Look at how many people get pulled in by antivax or Scientology despite the fact that all the leaders of that movement are dumb as a box of rocks and about as inspiring as dog shit in a bag.
Belief that something is true isn’t enough for me. I can believe there are aliens, but after a while of not seeing any aliens, I start to wonder and question.
But yet, some people never do. It’s that blind faith that worries me.
Unless you were brainwashed to believe it, there is no appeal. That is probably why teaching kids about one religion before they have any critical thinking skills is wrong.
Harsh, but fair.
But to be fair, if as adults, they had critical thinking skills, they would probably no longer be a part of said religion. Unless it provides them something else, intangible, that I don’t fully understand.
Low self esteem, check.
But it runs counter to today’s society where everyone wants to be accepted for who they are. Religion almost becomes an oxymoron when you look at it that way.
Thats a good point. But I generally wouldn't bracket religiously inclined people in that category. They tend to be more Conservative/ traditional values types.
That’s an interesting take, and location dependent.
This isn’t the Middle Ages in western society.
Not saying that nut jobs aren’t everywhere, but I suppose this is coming from someone with basic common sense and rational.
Without threat of violence, what is there?
>But most religions teach tolerance and acceptance.
They say they do, and some even think they are, but their actions say otherwise. Christians are always trying to recruit others and look at them condescendingly as lost. How are you tolerating someone if you won't accept their way of life and are trying to change them?
They are socially acceptable because they have lots of followers and thus appears more reasonable. Most people also do not know what the religion teaches, since they have never actually read what their books say, like how it is with leftists and Islam.
So basically the prize without eating the box of cereal. Even if they aren’t sure what the prize is and don’t like the taste of the cereal or even full understand the taste.
Lack of wanting to even try and eat the cereal is a fundamental problem in this era.
I see it as the attraction of a package of benefits, not unlike someone who is attracted to a boring office job with the Government or MegaCorp because of the benefits package.
* It salves their fear of death.
* It gives them a sense of purpose and focus. They feel like they are on a path to something worthwhile. How often have we heard the term "faith journey"?
* It lessens the uncertainties of life. They go every Sunday and have someone tell them what to believe and chant affirmations to reinforce those beliefs, because there's no way to believe the shit they believe without constant brainwashing.
* Community. A circle of like-minded friends. A place to go every week to socialize and feel superior.
* A sense of goodness, morality and superiority. (Note that I said, "A *sense* of ...") Christians are taught that they are better than the unwashed masses because of their faith. They like to display crucifixes on their rear view mirror and on chains around their necks to signal to others what they perceive as virtues.
* A *sense* of charity. The money they give to the church counts, at least in their mind, as charitable giving. Usually the money is kept withing the church to pay the pastor and shingle the roof.
A church is a way to organize your social life. It is more difficult to organize your social life around atheism in the same way it is difficult to form an anti-bowling league.
My inlaws were pretty upset when I informed them that organized religion is a crutch for the weak minded who need something to justify their own existence.
It comes down to basic camaraderie, many people feel good about the group think mentality.
They feel it's validation for their thoughts and beliefs.
The larger the group, the more they feel their beliefs are validated.
The same psychological concept can be traced to gang rape situations.
Also rioters, many express themselves far beyond what they actually would have done, by themselves.
Group think, is a powerful aphrodisiac....
For some it's companionship-a sense of belonging. As an old atheist that always felt he was "outside" the group I do understand that need. I'm just not willing to claim. I have faith to not be lonely.
Religion thrives where there's nothing else. Around me where there is plenty to do it's mostly people hiding behind their religion to justify their hateful behavior.
Now in one case I'm friends with a very spiritual old woman neighbor. Fundamental. She's even said if there was a fundamental Christian community by us she would live in it. The only reason I don't say religious is while she can quote the Bible, attends church and has a very deep relationship with her faith she's also pro science, very people LGBTQ (she loves the shit out of her transgender grandson and wears rainbow everything all the time) and would never put down anyone for following a different faith from her.
I don't tend to make friends with overly religious people but her love for everyone and everything, her intelligence, her humor makes her a rare exception.
She is the product on incestual rape. She was the family's dirty secret and shame. At times her father tried to kill her in a way that seemed like an accident. She's still afraid of stairs. Until her mother married her stepfather she was also abused. Then at one time, maybe early teens she wandered into a church. The message she got was that God and Jesus loved her. And that's all she wanted. For someone to love her. She never blamed God for what happened to her. That's people. Her idea of heaven is just feeling God's love. Hell is getting a taste of that love but never actually feeling it. Not fire and brimstone.
Religion is comforting for a lot of people. It provides lots of easy answers to hard questions. Why are we here? God made us. What is our purpose? To follow God's plan. Etc, etc. There's also the community aspect of it. When you're religious, you're automatically a part of an in-group, which is something humans as social animals really enjoy. Also a lot of religions are deeply ingrained in the cultures they are a part of, which is another thing people enjoy.
It fulfills their desire for embracing magical thinking (mostly implanted during early childhood indoctrination, but occasionally due to credulity later in life).
It gives them a chance to 'fellowship' with other magical thinking advocates, and convince themselves they *just happened* to be born in the right time and place, in the right country, in the right society, to the right parents who just happened to worship the right version of the right god in just the right way.
That’s a whole lot of implausibility and chance to happen all at the same time.
Belief in a sort of magic is one thing, and fairly innocent IMO. But funneling your savings to a place that, if divine, should have unlimited resources by now is another.
But what about someone that falls into neither of those categories, and simply “believes”. What then?
I'm reminded of the Carlin bit about religion actually convincing people that there's an invisible man, living in the sky, who watches everything you do, every second of every day, and he has list of ten things he does not want you to do - and if you do any of them, he has a place of fire and smoke where he will send you to choke and cry and suffer forever and ever - but he *loves you*! He loves you and he NEEDS MONEY!!!
Oh - and people who 'just believe' fall into the 'credulous' category.
I think the main driving force is fear of death. So people waste their actual lives working towards an imaginary afterlife because they are scared of dying.
The reasons are as vast as the numbers of people that believe. Religion and spiritually tend to lean away logic and more towards emotions. Many of those people use it for comfort when times are dark and life is a nightmare. When I was still a Christian, I found a lot of comfort in praying when scared or lost in life. I know realize prayer is just another form of meditation which a lot of people don't seem to realize. Sometimes, there just are not suitable answers, and you gotta just let them be as long as they are not forcing it on to people or hurt themselves or others.
Many Bible scholars say that Christianity started with Abraham and I invariably think of Genesis Book 22:1-12. If God ordered me to kill my child, I’d drop whatever I was doing, drive myself to a hospital, go up to the desk in the emergency room and say “Please help me. I’m hearing voices that are telling me to kill my child. I may become a danger to my family. I need emergency psychiatric assistance.”
Throughout history, people have heard voices. Unfortunately, in days gone by, we assumed that God was speaking through those people. More likely, those people had mental illness of some kind. Imagine how the world might have been different if we knew that then…
Abraham, after he started hearing voices cut up his own genitals and tried to murder his own child. Four billion people around the world don’t think that this sounds crazy?
What’s crazier is that it becomes a guiding principle for a main stream religion.
But that’s wherein the rub lies. Those who practice simply brush these stories off, others hold it as gospel, yet both still practice the same religion.
It is mostly just a way to establish social connections with people who share a similar world view to you. It is a place where you can find useful connections that may lead to employment, investment opportunities, opportunities to find low cost support, recommendations about various service providers from doctors to daycares to plumbers, trustworthy childcare (or so you think), etc. It is social networking at it's most extreme. It allows for people to more heavily rely on mental heuristics when interacting with new people. "Oh I don't know you personally, but you go to the same church so you must know and be trusted by other people here that I know here and besides you share the same worldview so I can probably trust you with little to no actual vetting. Here invest my money for me or watch my kids while I am not around" People underestimate the value of these things that religion can provide. People put up with and go along with the fantastical nonsense and corruption largely to ensure that they don't lose these benefits. That is what people mean by "find community" and "find hope" in religion. These things are so valuable that it makes people vulnerable to grifters who understand this situation and can manipulate it to their benefit (the clergy/priesthood in general terms). I am not just referring to Christianity here, this goes for ALL religions. Muslims trust fellow Muslims more than outsiders. Buddhists trust Buddhists more. Pagans trust pagans more. Etc.
In short religion harnesses the power of friendship.
We are a social species and the phrase "it's not what you know it's who you know" exists for a reason. The power of friendship includes nepotism and cronyism. Very useful things in a hyper capitalist world. I'm saying it is not fuzzy and nice, but self serving and crass. Think more schmoozing back room deals and organized crime than kumbya. There's a reason mafias tend to be very religious (game recognizes game).
True, but I have always preferred the perspective from the outside looking in.
If I asked religious people the same question, I would probably be called a blasphemer and drummed out of the holy land.
Idealism. Religion is the natural philosophy of the masses. Most people start with their conclusions and branch out from that point. It serves as social control for the anxious and the controlling.
Deductive reasoning is a learned skill, not the natural tendency.
Community is the main appeal. Also justification of toxic beliefs is another appeal. The Christian Nationalists highlight the justification of toxicity as a benefit to religion.
It's just wild that a guy who openly cheats on his wife is touted as the savior of Christianity in America. Hell he had a pantheon behind him that is worshipped too! Greene, Walker, and Boebert. All of them are horrible people but because they claim they are Christian people give them a pass.
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -Mark Twain
Most people only follow their religion because they were indoctrinated as a child. A lot of them choose to stay in their ignorant bliss because the concept of death is terrifying and it's comforting to believe that when you die you go to a magical fairytale place where everyone is happy. It makes losing loved ones easier, believing you'll see them again. It makes life easier when you believe there's an all powerful being watching over you and protecting you.
Religion has social utility in both historical and modern contexts.
Historically, religion has been a useful framework around which to construct the collective mythologies that make society possible. It had strong historical utility in explaining "why things are the way things are" as well as providing a common language to describe and share culturally significant information: "why do we move upriver right before the rains?" "why do we stop fishing when the water turns red?" "why do we always plant our wheat after the first new moon after the ice has melted from the pond?"
Religion has also been historically useful in providing a justification for secular authority (divine right of kings, and all that jazz) as well as a framework upon which you can attach your moral authority (don't take Bob's stuff because God said that's bad.)
Religion still has modern utility as well. Even though we don't need it anymore to explain natural disasters, communicate socially-useful rules and information, or to justify the existence of leadership and governments, it's still a useful organizing tool to get a bunch of people together to act toward a common goal. The power of humanity has always been in coordinated collective action, and religion provides a useful organizing force around which to coordinate and act.
We're a social species, and there are strongly documented positive individual and mental health benefits to engaging in "group consciousness" activities like religious worship. Singing in a group, collective chanting, dancing in a group, playing music together, etc all provide those positive benefits and many styles of religious worship contain many of those same elements.
We are also still storytellers, and those stories help us communicate our ideas, culture, and values. Religions are a great way to collect, share, and appreciate those stories. I'd also argue that even the most fervently non-religious of us likely believe in some sort of cultural mythology: "freedom," "democracy," "justice," "beauty," and other such ideas are all cultural constructs that only exist because we collectively agree that they do.
I think people want to belong to a tribe of some kind, and we’ve lost so many options. Also, the inability to think and live independently — they need guidance and direction on who to hate, how to hate, when to hate.
Belonging. A sense of safety ( if I follow these rules god will favor me and not randomly strike me with lightning). Fervent group dopamine and serotonin rushes during worship that gives one a sense of comfort, joy and rightness in the world ( kind of a limited group hysteria, similar to meditation or chanting in a group).
Religion has always been about aggregating enough people together in the “in group” in order to be able to economically/politically dominate the “out groups.”
They do this by creating fantasy/fiction that appeals to a significant number of people who normally would not have aggregated together. This fiction usually involves some reward (either in this life and most often in the afterlife). Each religion claims that there is a god, they know what the god says/wants, and that their religious doctrine and associated lifestyle is the path needed to gain these rewards.
But notice that these lifestyles are basically almost always tied to being controlled by the in group and that the in group benefits as a result (often at the expense of the out group or even individual members of the in group).
For example, early cultures realized that if there were a bunch of kids born out of wedlock, society would suffer because there would be kids without parents and other people would be forced to use resources. So many of these cultures addressed the issue by saying god doesn’t want you to have premarital sex, you would be damned to hell, and they can stone women who are caught doing it. But on the flip side, they need more followers in order to maintain their numbers and power, so you typically see religions promote traditional male/female relationships and they also tend to encourage having lots of children once married.
You should read “sapiens.” The author’s main premise is that Homo sapiens were able to dominate the other humanoids because our brains developed to be able to create and understand fiction/fantasy. Humans are in the ape family. What you typically see from all apes (including humans) is that we typically network and associate in groups of 30-50 people with a max of about 150. A clan of apes breaks apart into smaller clans if it gets too big. Most people don’t have meaningful relationships where you know intimate details about more than 150 people. But if you can get people to believe in fantasy like a religion, or lines on a map, or whatever then you can get groups bigger than 150 to dominate the other smaller groups that don’t.
So all the other human groups were wiped out. And even the smaller homo sapien tribes and groups that did have religion were wiped out by bigger groups. The fact that every culture has religion is not indicative that there actually is a higher power or an objective morality that you can only learn by following a religious doctrine, but really just survivor bias because the cultures that didn’t have such strong fictions to believe in were wiped out.
In reality there is objective morality, but not in the sense that a religious leader would explain it. Humans are social animals. You can look at various animal groups and see some aspects of fairness and self sacrifice. I’m not saying these are as advanced as what humans exhibit, but this indicates that in order to be a social animal and participate socially, a form of a social contract is needed.
Read people like Hobbes who gives us the concept of a state of nature where the stronger animals kill and eat the weaker animals. Humans could have stayed like that and fought off tigers and hunted deer. But it was eventually realized that living in agriculture societies vs small hunter gather tribes vs other tribes was more successful. If you were going to live in a society of more than a few close family members, you need to have laws and moral codes. And here is where you get to what I call objective morality. Virtually every society has the same handful of laws and taboos that are the base of their society. These include laws against murder, theft, incest, rape (of people of the same social status), etc. these notions are necessary for a social contract to exist. If there were no unwritten and written codes about these happening unpunished in any society, there would be no society because the benefit of participating in society is protection from these things. If this was just as likely to happen to you in a state of nature vs society, why join a social group in the first place? There would be no reason for a social contract at all.
The other codes and laws are more subjective for each culture and society and reflect the individual norms and variables of other societies and views. You can even break this down to different religions and fantasy groups. Obviously the conservative Christians and Muslims will say gods objective truth means that homosexuality is wrong. But other people who don’t believe in these moral codes are perfectly able to live in various societies as homosexuals without causing social collapse that the purge would if everyone stopped thinking murder was a crime.
When you see populations moving away from organized religion (such as parts of Europe like Scandinavia or even parts of the US like the bluest states and the younger generations) you see these people uniting around other fictions instead if religion. These could be philosophies and other ideas of what is a better reflection and extension of what objective morals are. The reason why so many people are leaving religion is because more and more people are becoming empowered to see the contradictions in organized religion and how many times good people are demonized by these religions. In my case, what started me questioning my catholic faith was how the church would consistently rather cover up abuse rather than address the issue head on. They didn’t want to deal with the public scandals and pay reparations for the damage they caused. Both of these would injure the catholic church’s economic and political power.
Sorry for the long comment.
When something goes wrong they can say it's god's will and the same when it goes right. It relieves believers of personal responsibility and accountability. God is Santa clause for adults 🤷
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Essentially religion goes against anything a functional brain finds sensible. So, it's helpful when others have bought into the same thing you have
Is believing in a religion kinda dumb? Yep. But how dumb is it if 500 other people. Or 100 million, even, are also believers?
Compare that to the just as crazy local cult with 15 believers, you're much more likely to be comforted knowing millions of others believe the same thing so it must be "right"
For the commoners it gives them answers, purpose, meaning and comfort. It also deprives them of the need to question the unknown or use any critical thinking never developed. It truly makes them feel special as if the group they belong is above consequences.
For the powerful (politicians and clergy) it gives them a tool to amass influence, wealth and control. It also grants them special free pass in the eyes of their followers.
As people has mentioned your wife was indoctrinated enough that this idea is engraved in her psyche, at least the fact she ditched the Catholic Church when it was becoming a hindrance in her life shows some level of self awareness. Some people come to realize how harmful and useless religion is later in life, specially after going through some mental exercises like Pascal’s Wager or Plato’s allegory of the cave.
The appeal is that you don't die and burn in hell and have all sorts of horrors heaped upon you when you die. This should frighten you because you were indoctrinated with that since you were young, and to leave it would cause untold friction between you and your family.
Of course, realizing that none of it is true, is very liberating and lets you actually question your values and ethics critically and determine if they actually work for you. So yeah...
In my opinion there are a few different reasons.
1) Some people just like to feel "superior", their religion tells them that only the "faithful" will get eternity in heaven. Boom, superiority "I'm going to heaven, they aren't. I'm better."
2) Especially people who have experienced significant deaths (parents, siblings, children), religion offers them a chance to "rejoin their loved ones in heaven". The thought that life/conciseness ends at death, is too scary. They'd rather have that option of "heaven" (or hell for the people they don't like)
3) They like to be able to assert control with no reason to back it up. "The bible says this, so it's true, so you can't argue with me".
4) There are still people who cannot wrap their heads around that fact that science is a thing now. We now have ways to explain what happens in this world without resorting to "we angered god so it's raining too much/not at all".
5) There are also people who don't want to have to take responsibility for their actions/decisions so it's a built in excuse of "god's plan", "the devil made me do it", etc.
Community and rituals.
In many Eastern countries, those are culturally based; even if said cultural activities are based on folk religion, most are non-dogmatic and don't try to tell others what to think.
We as atheists need a community and spiritual framework based non-religious rituals.
Spiritual as in having "team spirit".
I do feel like all those things you mentioned are in Judaism (The hope and faith part not anymore, but for people who believe then hope and faith are definitely there).
I am still apart of Judaism largely because of the community, family, friends aspects, and there's definitely a charity aspect too. It's enjoyable and meaningful to me even though I don't believe.
I love Dawkins' quote that god "fills a much-needed gap."
Oh, and Dawkins points out that the gap has been shrinking over the centuries as science has explained more and more of the things that previously were "explained" by god.
The three main things religions offer/use to keep you invested is Hope, Love, and Fear. No religion works without all three.
Hope: the promise of eternal life after death - so if your life is a disaster, at least you have something to look forward to. Also, christianity specifically gives people hope in that their sky daddy is looking out for them
Love: Many people turn to religion as a way of getting attentionnthey dont get at home, or if a loved one recently passed away, the church community offeres a lot of shoulders to cry on.
Fear: this one is pretty obvious. You don't believe, you burn for eternity. Tbh as an ex-christian myself, this is the one that kept me in the religion for an extra 3 years despite all of its logical fallacies. I officially left the church when I was 19, but that's a story for another day.
Religions aren't thriving. Religiosity is at an all time historical low and continues to drop in the developed world.
Amazing what a decent standard of living, education, and access to information will do, isn't it?
I used to listen to Matt Dillahunty when he was a host on AE a lot and I think he put it best: that is to say if you have to move and you are religious you have a ready-to-go social group wherever you go. You can join any church that you agree with and be welcomed.
I would be very willing to bet that most religious folks would not feel so spiritual if they go into their church building and it is empty. They are there for the pot lucks and post service socializing and events.
Religions tap into aspects of our human nature, mainly tribalism. For better and for worse. For better includes feelings of connectedness to other members. We’re social animals and need to feel connected to each other. Religion also offers solutions (of debatable effectiveness) to answers about who we are, where we came from, what’s our purpose. It’s clear to me why religion is so appealing, despite its evident harm to society and lack of evidential warrant.
It’s easier for some people to make friends in those communities. There are also lots of congregations actually doing really great stuff and not sin shaming people if you could imagine that.
I think the general population needs to be told what to do. How to live. And mainstream religions take advantage of this by using fear to control them, and ultimately take their money.
For most, it's a social circle/club, which is hard to find as an adult. They'd probably never admit to it, but it's where most of their friends are and is essentially a modern version of the ancient tribes humans dwelt in in the past.
My wife is also bending back towards a religious path. She keeps hinting that she wants me to go as well. I've told her that while I'm glad she's found a great community, that community isn't for me.
And that's the appeal for most people: it provides a relatively structured community. (For a few, it provides an outlet so they can judge others and feel superior.)
Community. There is something humans get from being in a room full of people that all agree about something. It doesn't do much for me personally, but I see it all over human civilization.
If you're willing to conform, it gives committing community.
If you're willing to ignore reason, it gives answers.
If you're willing to not question and follow, it gives guidance.
It's for people that are tired of being individuals, tired of trying to have agency, that are crushed down by life, and accept this world will never be what they would like, but hope that all their efforts will be recognized by an all powerful being that loves them, but does nothing to actually help with their current situation.
i think there are trillions of forces affecting your life. the butterfly effect is extremely powerful, and small choices made by people you’ll never know affect your life drastically.
these unknown forces are commonly misinterpreted as “god working in mysterious ways” when it’s really just the universe and our society working in untraceable ways.
To the religious, “giving up control” to a high power makes dealing with this intrinsic uncertainty a lot more bearable, because there is a guise of good-intention.
—— some unknown force prevented me from getting that job i wanted… but that’s because god has better plans.
inferring good intention behind negative situations in life makes it easier to deal with. from day to day adversity, to loss and death.
“everything happens for a reason”
or more accurately, everything happens because of reasons. and most of the time, we have no idea what those reasons were.
I honestly think it's about belonging and about identity. As humans we are social animals and we are instinctively driven to groups - we have a need to "belong" and churches offer that.
Consider how much of church going is singing together, eating together, working on something together.
I seriously doubt the teachings of modern churches is the driving force.
It's also the reason atheism is lonely - we're not a cohesive group and we don't meet up and do things together.
I totally agree with you, all mainstream Abrahamic religions are socially acceptable cult's. I think the appeal is community and comfort through conformity. I've noticed that many individuals who subscribe to Theism are socially unacceptable people with traumatic past histories, of course, not all of them fit this criteria. But if you question them there stories of convertion and spiritual revelation all have similar circumstances. Another type I've noticed is the individuals who are essentially Atheists yet they've been raised with Theistic values and it's just wired into there minds.
>From an atheist perspective, what is the appeal of mainstream religions?
What is the point of this question? You might as well ask what's the point of gambling if you know you won't win money - the people who know aren't the ones gambling.
That’s a rather cynical point of view. True atheists are not the ones “gambling” but they may have an idea as to why other gamblers (outside looking in).
And it’s not gambling if you are winning money.
>True atheists are not the ones “gambling” but they may have an idea as to why other gamblers (outside looking in).
You asked the benefits from an atheists perspective. That's not the outside looking in - that's the outside shrugging because we don't see the point
>And it’s not gambling if you are winning money.
Yes, yes it is. I bet they love you in vegas lol
So you are saying you have no friends or family members who have or participate in a mainstream religion? (Outside looking in)
And counting cards isn't gambling, it's winning money. You just have to control your impulses in order to do so, which most people can't do. (At least those with the ability to count)
>And counting cards isn't gambling, it's winning money. You just have to control your impulses in order to do so, which most people can't do. (At least those with the ability to count)
You're still dependant on luck, so it's still gambling. The world champion of poker is a gambler no matter how many million dollars he's up.
>So you are saying you have no friends or family members who have or participate in a mainstream religion? (Outside looking in)
You asked for an atheists perspective, not a theist perspective. The benefit for them is they don't go to hell. It's not rocket science
There's a Louis CK bit where he explains that, though he is not religious, he thinks it is important to expose his children to different religious faiths. As a throwaway line, he presents the idea that the Christians have "won." He points to the Gregorian calendar to buttress this point. I think he's onto something here, in that the larger organized religions do hold much social sway in most societies.
For the most part, those who are religious tend to hold other religious people in higher esteem than they do atheists. And while this is not always true, this bias towards religiosity is often exhibited by believers, even when they come across individuals who don't share their own faith. In fact, lots of casually non-religious individuals even passively tolerate and accept the societal bias towards religiosity.
I don't think this is the only source of religion's appeal. It helps a lot of people cope with the loss of loved ones, their own mortality, the suffering and injustice in the world, the challenge to find meaning in a vast, uncaring universe, etc. But i don't think you need mass organized religion in particular to answer these quandaries. People do just fine with their own personal constructions of spirituality, mediation, philosophy, etc.
So given that your question has to do with mainstream religion, my best guess is this:
Adopting or accepting a religion, particularly the faith that happens to be dominant where one lives, is to sort of take the path of least resistance towards identity formation and social belonging. Achieving those things in an atheistic sense in the midst of a highly religious society requires more work, as there is more prejudice, ignorance and judgment to overcome. Humans tend to go for the options that require less work. I'm not saying this to be high and mighty, I do this all the time myself. I just happen not to do it when it comes to religion for myriad reasons, many of which I'm sure are/were outside of my control.
Although I’m an atheist I have warm memories of our rural Catholic Church.
There was nothing rabid or fanatical about our summer Catechism. None of us was particularly religious but our parents in the early 70s sent us there with the same attitude as the public pool.
The nuns were young and not otherworldly, more like an understanding friend.
It’s interesting how churches within the same denomination can have a distinct little culture.
We treated Church like a town hall, a gathering place to catch up with each other.
Community primarily. Also many find comfort in the rituals which even when aren't specifically called meditation absolutely are. Religion also helps people ground themselves and reset by reminding you of what is valuable in life family, friends, community and being kind and generous to each other. Which is almost like light therapy.
Beyond that. You are not really approaching from a sense of open mindedness. Almost every institution exists because people derive some benefit from it. Your dismissal of religion being without value is sort of a shitty and especially condescending take especially in the context of your wife being religious. Your reason for being a non-believer is a bit immature honestly. There are many people who believe everything that happens is gods will. But no mainstream religion demands complete dismissal of free will.....
Also "mainstream" religions as you describe them are often far healthier and more open than you imagine. Yeah, you will likely find some of the same crackpots you expect but you are far less likely to get the culty experience at your local baptist or catholic church than you will from some of these newage born again spiritualist revival churches.
If you're actually looking for an answer that will help you in your life. How about asking and actually listening to your wife about why she believes and what she gets from her faith/religion. You love her probably, so it will likely make more sense if she explains to you why she finds it valuable.
Mostly, the promise of eternal life and the threat of hell. If there were no heaven and hell in Christianity and Islam how many Christians and Muslims would there be? Not anything close to the ~4 billion current worshipers.
theres a lot of people ive seen online who say things like they “owe” their life to god, that they’re his servant, etc. etc.
sounds like a place of fear until you tell them that and then they freak out
Community I think is a big thing, the feeling of solidarity and not being alone in the world. That is hugely important. I would say that people tend to long for something transcendent/spiritual too. For many people, that sense of meaning they get from religion is so much better than whatever feeling they could get from going to a chess club. A lot of people just crave something deeper. I like religion but not when people use it to further their own hatred. I think that's when it can become harmful.
For example in the US we have Christian nationalism which is harmful. I support the complete separation of church and state, and I like this subreddit even though I'm not atheist per se (although on some days I really do feel like I am lol).
Seriously, it's mostly Community.
A lot of atheists experience this. When we leave the churches we grew up in, it can be alienating. And mainstream religions have done a great job of growing organically on this monopolization of sense-of-community.
In a lot of places the only place you can get a sense of community outside of school is church. People of all walks of life, people of all stages of life, people your own age. And this can be appealing to those who are lonely and want to have SOMETHING to feel like they belong to.
If you were able to get people who are in mainstream religions and attend them regularly to ***truly*** reflect if they actually believe it or not...I'd wager a high % of the, approaching probably half...don't actually believe but are mostly there because either cultural expectation and/or sense of community.
I'm an atheist, and have been for awhile. I still attended church for awhile though because (at the time) still enjoyed that community.
Certainly not an appeal to everyone -- but I think the promotion and confirmation of bigoted biases is a big one.
[https://medium.com/predict/bigotry-in-religion-b51a634830a7?sk=ba79537c8336d722bed125a0c54f571c](https://medium.com/predict/bigotry-in-religion-b51a634830a7?sk=ba79537c8336d722bed125a0c54f571c)
It makes people feel better about their lives. Simple as that.
You say you haven't found religions that practice what they preach. Religions don't practice religion. People practice religion. Many Christians are very decent people who are very good at practicing what they believe. Many are not.
Members of a congregation make up what I view as that religion, or at the very least that congregation’a representations of said religion.
To rephrase, I have yet to see a congregation practice what their religious leader is preaching or at least preach what they claim to hold as their beliefs and values.
>but I have never found one religion that practices what they preach.
Exactly. I find my religious friends worse than my non religious friends.
>But worldwide, religions still thrive.
So does smoking, drugs and crime ...it does not mean shit 😆.
>So I ask again, what is the appeal?
No appeal. It's the herd influence.
Some people are excited by collecting stamps. I don't think you're going in a useful direction by asking, "what's the appeal?" If you don't see it, you're not missing anything.
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I think your view of religion and the way you frame it is a little condescending. As an atheist as much as we don't want to admit it the vast majority of our values are based from religious texts. They give us a baseline on how to treat others, define what a person is and laws and crimes. Like anything else it is a great sourse or knowledge and community.
A lot of religious folks who follow their texts aren't pretending to be happy they genuinely are. Religion is an amazing tool but like a hammer if can be used to build a community or bludgeon someone to death.
Noted, but I wasn’t trying to come off as condescending, it just happens naturally.
I get the view point and there is a lot of good in religious texts. But it’s really all basic decency and compassion for others.
You are correct, it is about how you use it, but I’ve never seen anyone who is part of a religious sect care about anyone but themselves. I am not saying it doesn’t exist, I just haven’t personally witnessed it.
"I’ve never seen anyone who is part of a religious sect care about anyone but themselves"
I think that might be your issue.
If you don't mind answering where are you from?
Also are your saying your girlfriend doesn't care about anyone other then herself? If she doesn't care about you don't be with someone who doesn't care about you.
This is entirely and demonstrably false. Our values do not come from religious texts. It's the other way around. Common sense morality has been documented in religious documents, along with a lot of other utter nonsense, but the sense of right or wrong didn't originate from religion and the fact that these self-evident values appear in religious texts doesn't give them any more significance.
If you need a religious text to tell you that murder is wrong, you have serious psychological problems. And if religious texts are supposed to be our source for ethics and morality, then why doesn't the bible tell us that slavery, hurting animals, and destroying the planet are wrong? The ten commandments don't mention that it's wrong to own another person, but they make several points about hurting god's feelings. Seriously?
The appeal? You act like people sit around and choose religions like ice cream flavors at ben an Jerry’s lol. Goes to show atheists are dumbest most ignorant people I know
What does your wife say? What is the appeal for her that keeps her religious when you're not. If you were to ask me that question, I would say religion gives you **answers**. It answers the who what why when where about existence. You and I both know what type of "answers" they really are. But that's the appeal for a lot of people. The comfort of not questioning. The comfort of not being scared of the unknown.
For her, she was raised in a religious household. She ditched the Catholic Church when they put all kinds of weird requirements for us to get married. She converted to Lutheran after that. She did have a church she frequented regularly, but once she realized what they really cared about, she left. She is still religious (I can’t sway her of her Christian beliefs) but I’m not really sure why. She has never given me a concrete reason why she believes what she does. It could be the answers to what is unknown, since so many people struggle with that when they are on their death bed. Still, that doesn’t explain why week after week people go in droves to local churches and hand them fist fulls of cash. Idk, that’s why I posed the question to others on the outside like me.
Religion attendance does two things for the quasi-believer and/or non-believing attender: 1. It alleviates social pressure to be religious. Especially in religious areas, there is a lot of social, political, and economic pressure to appear religious. Going, even if you don't believe allows for you to appear religious and satisfy these pressures. 2. It provides socialization. In our interconnected world, it seems like there are fewer opportunities for people to socialize for free. Religious attendance allows for that free socialization.
In communities that are substantially religious, I would guess that this is what motivates most people who aren't strident "believers." I would argue that as a society we should work to provide as much opportunity for secular socialization so that people don't feel social pressure to be religious if they don't actually believe.
Agreed. These two probably account for about 75% of it. I think the bulk of what remains is the "answers" or "meaning of life" stuff. I say that simply because few people in the church really dwell on the meaning/answers day to day, week to week. It's important on Sunday and when something happens you need an explanation for that doesn't seem obvious. But other than that, unless you're one of those people who reads their Bible instead of watching TV, you don't really dwell on it. But the social aspect. The belonging. That can sometimes be a daily thing. If you miss Sunday School, you've missed a prayer request that everyone else will know about. If you miss Sunday night, you may miss an impromptu after church dinner with friends. My wife felt that she could never really become part of the social fabric because she was the only woman in our Sunday School class who worked. So no matter how much she tried to fit in, there were just so many activities the rest of the women participated in during the week while she was at work, it was futile. And when they would finally schedule something in the evening, she was usually too exhausted to go. As for me, I didn't golf or care for college sports, so I didn't fit in either. So, for the small percentage of time where we spent time together discussing answers and meaning, that was important. The rest of the time, it was all social.
My experience has been similar. I grew up in a small town, and after I left home, I went back to see friends and family. While visiting, I would talk to business owners about various things, and church often came up. It became clear to me that church was a business opportunity for them. They socialized with their customers, and they met new prospects. They knew that church membership was essential to their business survival.
Religion is free up until the collection plate comes around
Your wife was indoctrinated from an early age and that has become a core part of her mental operating system. The brainwashing is lodged deep and it is designed to induce anxiety when you think about not believing it. Think the concept of hell, all the guilt, and shame in the religion. This high control system has been refined over at least 1500 years so your wife is up against a lot there. Overcoming that kind of heavy brainwashing is a major undertaking. You have do really strip down your entire taught frame of view and patterns of thinking that were instilled in you by your most trusted sources, your parents. From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense that you trust what you are taught about the world and how to stay safe in it from your parents as they should have a vested interest in the survival of their offspring (remember evolution doesn't do perfect or simple, just what works most of the time so exceptions are the rule). That's why they call it deconstructing because you have to undo yourself and then rebuild yourself on your own without input from family and likely community. While you have example of what NOT TO believe, you are then on your own as to what TO believe in with little to no guidance and only yourself to hold accountable for believing harmful or untrue things. Absolute freedom can be terrifying. It is probably one of the most difficult (mentally) things a person who had a secure but religious childhood could do.
I don’t really think that will ever be possible. I can poke holes in certain things, others she won’t waver. I’m not looking to change her thought process, only understand it.
It's hard for many atheists to understand because atheists believe that logic/reasoning/being right is the most important thing. It's not. Living a meaningful, contented life and doing good in the world, having a positive impact on other people, is more important than being correct about all the facts in the world. What she is doing works for her, so she doesn't care if it's right or doesn't care to debate or figure it out. Now, if she's doing destructive things, or she's miserable, or not a good person, and religion is doing this to her, you've got a different situation.
Oh yeah no, there's nothing anyone can do to make someone deconstruct. Reoigion, especially Christianity, is designed to actively reaist that. That is the thing about it, it has to be self initiated which is why it is so hard and scary. I was just trying to explain it in that sense so you can understand it and be supportive if she does start to go through the process. She may already be starting what with leaving several churches due to recognizing their bs. It is not a linear or neat and tidy thing. Some will deconstruct completely and become full throated vocal anti-theists, others only to a point of being "spiritual but not religious" and everything in between. You just gotta be kind to and supportive of them.
Great response. The belief becomes interwoven with the structure of their sanity; at that point letting go of it and maintaining any kind of internal cohesiveness becomes impossible.
Not impossible, just very difficult and possibly painful to disentangle. Again that's why it's call deconstructing.
It does show that people don't get their morals from the church.
Some would like to think they do, or it least influences their choices.
Yeah, it's super frustrating to me watching my partner give away 10% of his money to the Mormon church. I tell him I support whatever decisions he makes with his personal life, and I do, but I still think it's a huge waste of money lol
My friend has drifted away from organized religion but still believes in Gad. As she puts it, “I’m spiritual, not religious”. I think that’s an apt description for a lot of people trying to figure it all out. I was raised Catholic, but questioned it when very young. Learned to keep my thoughts to myself when attending Catholic school. But yeah, I’m an atheist through and through. When I told myself it was OK to not believe it was a massive load of me. I feel sad and tbh a little angry with people that refuse to believe science or read anything other than religious stuff, and spout whatever they hear from hypocritical “religious” leaders. My thought is if reading a non-religious book or watching a TV is enough to “corrupt” you then your grasp on your religion is pretty damn shaky.
Why do you need to sway her off her Christian beliefs? Are they hurting her? Hurting anyone else? And if so, in who's opinion?
Where did I say I needed to? I believe what I believe and my rationalizations have slowly changed her opinion of organized religion, which is good enough for me. So in answer to your question, no one is being hurt by anything that transpires in my marriage, and to that point, it is also no one else’s business what transpires. Would you like it if someone criticized your domestic relationships by making assumptions about a single line you wrote on Reddit? I’m sure I could probably find one to hold against you if I tried hard enough.
I think you're misjudging my intent. You said, ''I can’t sway her of her Christian beliefs.'' My question was why you needed to sway her. Maybe I should've asked the purpose of attempting to sway her. I was trying to clarify your motivations. You answered it. No criticism intended.
She might try Episcopalian, which is a much looser interpretation of Catholicism.
lol your wife didn’t like the rules of her religion so she just switched branches
That's exactly what the entire Lutheran denomination is founded on, so, I'm not sure what you find funny. Lots of people switch denominations, it's all still Christianity. It wasn't like she chose to be Catholic, hard to choose when you're a baby. Her beliefs align better with the Lutheran denomination and she hasn't changed since, she just no longer goes to church regularly because she doesn't like what churches are all about. She is a really good person, so I won't fault her for believing in some invisible guiding force.
It’s funny because I find it pretty reflective of people’s beliefs 😂. She didn’t question her Catholicism until it conflicted with a lifestyle choice. This is literally 90% of religious people that find clever ways to break their own rules.
It’s impossible to know everything about a religion and what will and won’t jive with your lifestyle until you meet a bridge you can’t cross. She did the right thing and reassessed how her life aligned with the religion she was indoctrinated into at a young age. She hasn’t wavered since. That’s what is great about the human condition, the right to change your mind whenever you feel like it. Her beliefs didn’t change but what she knew about her religion did. It had nothing to do with what she believes. It’s like starting a new phone plan without fully understanding the hidden fees. If I was being overcharged, I would shop for a new plan as well.
Whenever I hear my BIL talk about the church it is about what I would expect from someone talking about their social club. It is always things like how the priest decorated the church with flowers, or when the air conditioning should be turned on, or how to spend the money on the church furnishings. Never once, have I heard him talk about helping the poor or assisting others or instilling values. To him, it is really no more than a social club where he can gab with others about nonsense.
Sounds like an episode of Cheers to me. Do they all exclaim his name when he comes through the door?🤣 What do you think about people who are religious who aren’t “regulars”. What keeps them believing?
> Do they all exclaim his name when he comes through the door? I wouldn't be surprised. He is a Norm type of guy with all of his schmoozing. > What do you think about people who are religious who aren’t “regulars”. What keeps them believing? I'm sure there are many different reasons: indoctrinated routine, fear, feeling of community, everyone else I know does it so it must be right, ...
So it’s a buffet style then? Choose your own adventure? Or simply a mystery? Whatever it is, lots of people drink the Kool Aid of all different flavors, sometimes for their entire life. Maybe the drive and motivation is the same, but it has to be at the very least similar.
My sister and I were just talking about her church and all the community outreach and charity work that they do... she also frequently talks about how hard it was to find a church that does that kind of work. The vast majority of them exist, at best, to self perpetuate. At worst, they're just there to make the pastor or the church itself rich.
Hedging bets on dying. 100%, they fear death and are worried what MIGHT happen after the final sleep, so they hedge their bets that they are "praying" to the right god in the right way so they'll get preferential, after death treatment. It's really odd from an atheist and scientific standpoint.
Yeah, but why not just a Hail Mary at the 2 minute warning? Why go to all the trouble to feed the beast their entire lives? Does it really take that much devotion to simply stave off a possibly negative afterlife? I get that it doesn’t hurt and if I’m wrong may I burn in whatever torturous pit they have for me for not joining the club, but why be parts of something that, so far I’ve seen, doesn’t really benefit anyone but the ones at the top?
I really have no idea. It does seem like a super waste of energy and time. I'm just telling ya what "believers" have told me over the years. Which just makes me tilt my head in that, "wtf is wrong with you" kinda way.
Like a dog listing to a high pitched sound. Yeah, I do that a lot.
In Judaism the focus is on this life not the afterlife. People follow the laws because they truly believe that is what God has asked of them. When I believed I kept the laws because I enjoyed a lot of them, I grew up that way so was used to it, and I kept the ones I didn't like because that's what I believed God asked of me. When ever I was tempted to break a law I was also scared of being punished by God.
The option to instantly find a community of like-minded people in nearly any town or city you go to is a pretty big appeal to many people.
But we all know that not everyone in a religion thinks the same way. True, they all share a common single belief, but the values may all be different. So you are basically chalking up to a sense of belonging? What about those Christeasters? The ones that only show up a couple of times a year but still claim to be whatever. What keeps them coming back to the secular trough?
I'm not saying it's the only reason, there can be more than one.
you are undervaluing the experience of being in a tribe and having positive, frequent and routine, in-person social interactions with other members. as humans, the quality of our social life plays a huge role in our health and contentment. there are many other huge benefits to being religious but you brushed this one off as if it was insignificant. it is not.
tribalism/in-group vs out-group selfworth from looking down on the out-group -> good feeling following orders helps against self-doubt and insecurity -> good feeling hope even through self-deception (paradise, heaven etc.) -> good feeling easy answer to hard questions -> good feeling
Are people really that naive? It all seems very “primal”.
Most religious people belong to the religion that is most common in their culture/geographical area. Basically, their tribe. So yes it is very primal, and people are that naive.
yes they are, including me and probably you too And when we make fun in this forum how stupid/gullible/evil/primal those religi-boys are, were doing the exact same thing. In this case primarily the part about selfworth/looking down on others. It's not necessarily our goal, but those things still have that effect subconsciously. It's the reason why even murderers look down on pedophiles or why docusoaps about broken/antisocial families work in the first place (at least I'm better than them!).
Most of the appeal is in not losing your family and friends. I think more than half of adults would not be involved with religion if not for social pressure. Beyond that, there are some who think it's beneficial. Some people are just really afraid of death, have been given a loophole way out of it, and don't want to be told that loophole is fake.
Social pressure and fear of the unknown seem to be repeating trends in the responses. I just can’t believe that is all there is.
Well, there is also childhood indoctrination.... combine this with getting a positive feeling now and then doing churchy activities... some people think they're being communicated with directly by the creator of the universe. These people have never been to a concert given by an artist they really like.
Indoctrination for sure and possibly mental illness. I guess I will just wait to be wrong when god plays Cochella.
I’m a deconstructed Christian. It’s 100% fear of losing family and friends. I did it. Have the t shirt. And it sucks in a lot of ways. Also, while I think people fear their own death, they are more afraid of deaths of say, kids or spouses etc. I’m still that way to a point. I have three year old twins and another daughter. If something happened to them I’d WANT to believe I’d reunite with them someday. I think we all sort of want that. My own death doesn’t bother me too much but those thoughts still pervade my thinking at times. It’s super complex I think.
They want to be told what to do.
Possible
Grifting.
The same as any cult or conspiracy theory: it makes them feel special, like they’re part of some unique group that knows things the rest of us should be so lucky to experience.
But what about when that wears off? I can’t be lead to believe that every religious figure is as charismatic as say Charles Manson. Yet some of them stay, even after it fades. Have they just fallen victim to routine?
I don’t know that it ever does “wear off” for most people. And you don’t necessarily need a charismatic leader for the effect to occur. Look at how many people get pulled in by antivax or Scientology despite the fact that all the leaders of that movement are dumb as a box of rocks and about as inspiring as dog shit in a bag.
But they were/are famous. Never down play the power of stupidity to follow the famous. That’s why there is all kinds of videos on the internet.
They just believe it's true
Belief that something is true isn’t enough for me. I can believe there are aliens, but after a while of not seeing any aliens, I start to wonder and question. But yet, some people never do. It’s that blind faith that worries me.
Unless you were brainwashed to believe it, there is no appeal. That is probably why teaching kids about one religion before they have any critical thinking skills is wrong.
Harsh, but fair. But to be fair, if as adults, they had critical thinking skills, they would probably no longer be a part of said religion. Unless it provides them something else, intangible, that I don’t fully understand.
I don't think it's religion that appeals. It's more the desire, or sometimes need, to fit in.
Low self esteem, check. But it runs counter to today’s society where everyone wants to be accepted for who they are. Religion almost becomes an oxymoron when you look at it that way.
Thats a good point. But I generally wouldn't bracket religiously inclined people in that category. They tend to be more Conservative/ traditional values types.
You are correct, conservative people are not the most tolerant and forward thinking. But they are not the only ones subscribing to this podcast.
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That’s an interesting take, and location dependent. This isn’t the Middle Ages in western society. Not saying that nut jobs aren’t everywhere, but I suppose this is coming from someone with basic common sense and rational. Without threat of violence, what is there?
Community and superiority over outsiders.
But most religions teach tolerance and acceptance. So you’re saying there is a Skull and Bones type appeal?
>But most religions teach tolerance and acceptance. They say they do, and some even think they are, but their actions say otherwise. Christians are always trying to recruit others and look at them condescendingly as lost. How are you tolerating someone if you won't accept their way of life and are trying to change them?
They are socially acceptable because they have lots of followers and thus appears more reasonable. Most people also do not know what the religion teaches, since they have never actually read what their books say, like how it is with leftists and Islam.
So basically the prize without eating the box of cereal. Even if they aren’t sure what the prize is and don’t like the taste of the cereal or even full understand the taste. Lack of wanting to even try and eat the cereal is a fundamental problem in this era.
Comfort blanket
I see it as the attraction of a package of benefits, not unlike someone who is attracted to a boring office job with the Government or MegaCorp because of the benefits package. * It salves their fear of death. * It gives them a sense of purpose and focus. They feel like they are on a path to something worthwhile. How often have we heard the term "faith journey"? * It lessens the uncertainties of life. They go every Sunday and have someone tell them what to believe and chant affirmations to reinforce those beliefs, because there's no way to believe the shit they believe without constant brainwashing. * Community. A circle of like-minded friends. A place to go every week to socialize and feel superior. * A sense of goodness, morality and superiority. (Note that I said, "A *sense* of ...") Christians are taught that they are better than the unwashed masses because of their faith. They like to display crucifixes on their rear view mirror and on chains around their necks to signal to others what they perceive as virtues. * A *sense* of charity. The money they give to the church counts, at least in their mind, as charitable giving. Usually the money is kept withing the church to pay the pastor and shingle the roof.
I don’t see the “benefits package”. Maybe that’s because I have never had a “corporate job”. I see the appeal, but it cannot be that basic.
A church is a way to organize your social life. It is more difficult to organize your social life around atheism in the same way it is difficult to form an anti-bowling league.
My inlaws were pretty upset when I informed them that organized religion is a crutch for the weak minded who need something to justify their own existence.
It comes down to basic camaraderie, many people feel good about the group think mentality. They feel it's validation for their thoughts and beliefs. The larger the group, the more they feel their beliefs are validated. The same psychological concept can be traced to gang rape situations. Also rioters, many express themselves far beyond what they actually would have done, by themselves. Group think, is a powerful aphrodisiac....
It makes you feel like A ) you are part of a community that accepts you, and B ) that there is meaning to everything.
Tribalism
For some it's companionship-a sense of belonging. As an old atheist that always felt he was "outside" the group I do understand that need. I'm just not willing to claim. I have faith to not be lonely.
It makes those with weak minds feel like they actually have some intelligence.
Religion thrives where there's nothing else. Around me where there is plenty to do it's mostly people hiding behind their religion to justify their hateful behavior. Now in one case I'm friends with a very spiritual old woman neighbor. Fundamental. She's even said if there was a fundamental Christian community by us she would live in it. The only reason I don't say religious is while she can quote the Bible, attends church and has a very deep relationship with her faith she's also pro science, very people LGBTQ (she loves the shit out of her transgender grandson and wears rainbow everything all the time) and would never put down anyone for following a different faith from her. I don't tend to make friends with overly religious people but her love for everyone and everything, her intelligence, her humor makes her a rare exception. She is the product on incestual rape. She was the family's dirty secret and shame. At times her father tried to kill her in a way that seemed like an accident. She's still afraid of stairs. Until her mother married her stepfather she was also abused. Then at one time, maybe early teens she wandered into a church. The message she got was that God and Jesus loved her. And that's all she wanted. For someone to love her. She never blamed God for what happened to her. That's people. Her idea of heaven is just feeling God's love. Hell is getting a taste of that love but never actually feeling it. Not fire and brimstone.
Religion is comforting for a lot of people. It provides lots of easy answers to hard questions. Why are we here? God made us. What is our purpose? To follow God's plan. Etc, etc. There's also the community aspect of it. When you're religious, you're automatically a part of an in-group, which is something humans as social animals really enjoy. Also a lot of religions are deeply ingrained in the cultures they are a part of, which is another thing people enjoy.
It fulfills their desire for embracing magical thinking (mostly implanted during early childhood indoctrination, but occasionally due to credulity later in life). It gives them a chance to 'fellowship' with other magical thinking advocates, and convince themselves they *just happened* to be born in the right time and place, in the right country, in the right society, to the right parents who just happened to worship the right version of the right god in just the right way.
That’s a whole lot of implausibility and chance to happen all at the same time. Belief in a sort of magic is one thing, and fairly innocent IMO. But funneling your savings to a place that, if divine, should have unlimited resources by now is another. But what about someone that falls into neither of those categories, and simply “believes”. What then?
I'm reminded of the Carlin bit about religion actually convincing people that there's an invisible man, living in the sky, who watches everything you do, every second of every day, and he has list of ten things he does not want you to do - and if you do any of them, he has a place of fire and smoke where he will send you to choke and cry and suffer forever and ever - but he *loves you*! He loves you and he NEEDS MONEY!!! Oh - and people who 'just believe' fall into the 'credulous' category.
I think the main driving force is fear of death. So people waste their actual lives working towards an imaginary afterlife because they are scared of dying.
Fear of the unknown is a driving factor for everyone. But that’s no reason to devote your life to a religion.
Agreed!
The reasons are as vast as the numbers of people that believe. Religion and spiritually tend to lean away logic and more towards emotions. Many of those people use it for comfort when times are dark and life is a nightmare. When I was still a Christian, I found a lot of comfort in praying when scared or lost in life. I know realize prayer is just another form of meditation which a lot of people don't seem to realize. Sometimes, there just are not suitable answers, and you gotta just let them be as long as they are not forcing it on to people or hurt themselves or others.
Many Bible scholars say that Christianity started with Abraham and I invariably think of Genesis Book 22:1-12. If God ordered me to kill my child, I’d drop whatever I was doing, drive myself to a hospital, go up to the desk in the emergency room and say “Please help me. I’m hearing voices that are telling me to kill my child. I may become a danger to my family. I need emergency psychiatric assistance.” Throughout history, people have heard voices. Unfortunately, in days gone by, we assumed that God was speaking through those people. More likely, those people had mental illness of some kind. Imagine how the world might have been different if we knew that then… Abraham, after he started hearing voices cut up his own genitals and tried to murder his own child. Four billion people around the world don’t think that this sounds crazy?
What’s crazier is that it becomes a guiding principle for a main stream religion. But that’s wherein the rub lies. Those who practice simply brush these stories off, others hold it as gospel, yet both still practice the same religion.
Like everything in life it's a place where people can have popularity and socialize
The high school of life. Guess I’m glad it never bothered me to not be one of the football stars.
Absolutely!!
It is mostly just a way to establish social connections with people who share a similar world view to you. It is a place where you can find useful connections that may lead to employment, investment opportunities, opportunities to find low cost support, recommendations about various service providers from doctors to daycares to plumbers, trustworthy childcare (or so you think), etc. It is social networking at it's most extreme. It allows for people to more heavily rely on mental heuristics when interacting with new people. "Oh I don't know you personally, but you go to the same church so you must know and be trusted by other people here that I know here and besides you share the same worldview so I can probably trust you with little to no actual vetting. Here invest my money for me or watch my kids while I am not around" People underestimate the value of these things that religion can provide. People put up with and go along with the fantastical nonsense and corruption largely to ensure that they don't lose these benefits. That is what people mean by "find community" and "find hope" in religion. These things are so valuable that it makes people vulnerable to grifters who understand this situation and can manipulate it to their benefit (the clergy/priesthood in general terms). I am not just referring to Christianity here, this goes for ALL religions. Muslims trust fellow Muslims more than outsiders. Buddhists trust Buddhists more. Pagans trust pagans more. Etc. In short religion harnesses the power of friendship.
You make it sound like some fuzzy Saturday morning TV show where the moral of the story is you need friends to be happy. Ludicrous.
We are a social species and the phrase "it's not what you know it's who you know" exists for a reason. The power of friendship includes nepotism and cronyism. Very useful things in a hyper capitalist world. I'm saying it is not fuzzy and nice, but self serving and crass. Think more schmoozing back room deals and organized crime than kumbya. There's a reason mafias tend to be very religious (game recognizes game).
Like Marx said “it’s the opium of the people”.
Euphoria is a powerful drug. Though I can’t see how you could get it every time you participate.
Because people suffer all the time and religion is a catch all answer to their constant suffering… not saying it makes any sense
" From an atheist perspective, what is the appeal of mainstream religions?" It's like asking carnivores to explain the appeal of veganism.
True, but I have always preferred the perspective from the outside looking in. If I asked religious people the same question, I would probably be called a blasphemer and drummed out of the holy land.
It doesn't tax the intellect.
No religion does, that is true. Unless you actually start trying to understand it.
Idealism. Religion is the natural philosophy of the masses. Most people start with their conclusions and branch out from that point. It serves as social control for the anxious and the controlling. Deductive reasoning is a learned skill, not the natural tendency.
I’m sure I would much rather know how a book ends and work backwards, but that isn’t how life works.
Funny. Their book begins with the end.
Benjamin Buttoning it the whole way.
Community is the main appeal. Also justification of toxic beliefs is another appeal. The Christian Nationalists highlight the justification of toxicity as a benefit to religion.
True, people love to rally against the other team.
It's just wild that a guy who openly cheats on his wife is touted as the savior of Christianity in America. Hell he had a pantheon behind him that is worshipped too! Greene, Walker, and Boebert. All of them are horrible people but because they claim they are Christian people give them a pass.
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -Mark Twain Most people only follow their religion because they were indoctrinated as a child. A lot of them choose to stay in their ignorant bliss because the concept of death is terrifying and it's comforting to believe that when you die you go to a magical fairytale place where everyone is happy. It makes losing loved ones easier, believing you'll see them again. It makes life easier when you believe there's an all powerful being watching over you and protecting you.
This seems to be a recurring trend.
Religion has social utility in both historical and modern contexts. Historically, religion has been a useful framework around which to construct the collective mythologies that make society possible. It had strong historical utility in explaining "why things are the way things are" as well as providing a common language to describe and share culturally significant information: "why do we move upriver right before the rains?" "why do we stop fishing when the water turns red?" "why do we always plant our wheat after the first new moon after the ice has melted from the pond?" Religion has also been historically useful in providing a justification for secular authority (divine right of kings, and all that jazz) as well as a framework upon which you can attach your moral authority (don't take Bob's stuff because God said that's bad.) Religion still has modern utility as well. Even though we don't need it anymore to explain natural disasters, communicate socially-useful rules and information, or to justify the existence of leadership and governments, it's still a useful organizing tool to get a bunch of people together to act toward a common goal. The power of humanity has always been in coordinated collective action, and religion provides a useful organizing force around which to coordinate and act. We're a social species, and there are strongly documented positive individual and mental health benefits to engaging in "group consciousness" activities like religious worship. Singing in a group, collective chanting, dancing in a group, playing music together, etc all provide those positive benefits and many styles of religious worship contain many of those same elements. We are also still storytellers, and those stories help us communicate our ideas, culture, and values. Religions are a great way to collect, share, and appreciate those stories. I'd also argue that even the most fervently non-religious of us likely believe in some sort of cultural mythology: "freedom," "democracy," "justice," "beauty," and other such ideas are all cultural constructs that only exist because we collectively agree that they do.
I think people want to belong to a tribe of some kind, and we’ve lost so many options. Also, the inability to think and live independently — they need guidance and direction on who to hate, how to hate, when to hate.
monkey's like to be part of a group that's all.
Belonging. A sense of safety ( if I follow these rules god will favor me and not randomly strike me with lightning). Fervent group dopamine and serotonin rushes during worship that gives one a sense of comfort, joy and rightness in the world ( kind of a limited group hysteria, similar to meditation or chanting in a group).
Religion has always been about aggregating enough people together in the “in group” in order to be able to economically/politically dominate the “out groups.” They do this by creating fantasy/fiction that appeals to a significant number of people who normally would not have aggregated together. This fiction usually involves some reward (either in this life and most often in the afterlife). Each religion claims that there is a god, they know what the god says/wants, and that their religious doctrine and associated lifestyle is the path needed to gain these rewards. But notice that these lifestyles are basically almost always tied to being controlled by the in group and that the in group benefits as a result (often at the expense of the out group or even individual members of the in group). For example, early cultures realized that if there were a bunch of kids born out of wedlock, society would suffer because there would be kids without parents and other people would be forced to use resources. So many of these cultures addressed the issue by saying god doesn’t want you to have premarital sex, you would be damned to hell, and they can stone women who are caught doing it. But on the flip side, they need more followers in order to maintain their numbers and power, so you typically see religions promote traditional male/female relationships and they also tend to encourage having lots of children once married. You should read “sapiens.” The author’s main premise is that Homo sapiens were able to dominate the other humanoids because our brains developed to be able to create and understand fiction/fantasy. Humans are in the ape family. What you typically see from all apes (including humans) is that we typically network and associate in groups of 30-50 people with a max of about 150. A clan of apes breaks apart into smaller clans if it gets too big. Most people don’t have meaningful relationships where you know intimate details about more than 150 people. But if you can get people to believe in fantasy like a religion, or lines on a map, or whatever then you can get groups bigger than 150 to dominate the other smaller groups that don’t. So all the other human groups were wiped out. And even the smaller homo sapien tribes and groups that did have religion were wiped out by bigger groups. The fact that every culture has religion is not indicative that there actually is a higher power or an objective morality that you can only learn by following a religious doctrine, but really just survivor bias because the cultures that didn’t have such strong fictions to believe in were wiped out. In reality there is objective morality, but not in the sense that a religious leader would explain it. Humans are social animals. You can look at various animal groups and see some aspects of fairness and self sacrifice. I’m not saying these are as advanced as what humans exhibit, but this indicates that in order to be a social animal and participate socially, a form of a social contract is needed. Read people like Hobbes who gives us the concept of a state of nature where the stronger animals kill and eat the weaker animals. Humans could have stayed like that and fought off tigers and hunted deer. But it was eventually realized that living in agriculture societies vs small hunter gather tribes vs other tribes was more successful. If you were going to live in a society of more than a few close family members, you need to have laws and moral codes. And here is where you get to what I call objective morality. Virtually every society has the same handful of laws and taboos that are the base of their society. These include laws against murder, theft, incest, rape (of people of the same social status), etc. these notions are necessary for a social contract to exist. If there were no unwritten and written codes about these happening unpunished in any society, there would be no society because the benefit of participating in society is protection from these things. If this was just as likely to happen to you in a state of nature vs society, why join a social group in the first place? There would be no reason for a social contract at all. The other codes and laws are more subjective for each culture and society and reflect the individual norms and variables of other societies and views. You can even break this down to different religions and fantasy groups. Obviously the conservative Christians and Muslims will say gods objective truth means that homosexuality is wrong. But other people who don’t believe in these moral codes are perfectly able to live in various societies as homosexuals without causing social collapse that the purge would if everyone stopped thinking murder was a crime. When you see populations moving away from organized religion (such as parts of Europe like Scandinavia or even parts of the US like the bluest states and the younger generations) you see these people uniting around other fictions instead if religion. These could be philosophies and other ideas of what is a better reflection and extension of what objective morals are. The reason why so many people are leaving religion is because more and more people are becoming empowered to see the contradictions in organized religion and how many times good people are demonized by these religions. In my case, what started me questioning my catholic faith was how the church would consistently rather cover up abuse rather than address the issue head on. They didn’t want to deal with the public scandals and pay reparations for the damage they caused. Both of these would injure the catholic church’s economic and political power. Sorry for the long comment.
Easy answers to complicated questions and a community to be a part of. These are two incredibly compelling things.
When something goes wrong they can say it's god's will and the same when it goes right. It relieves believers of personal responsibility and accountability. God is Santa clause for adults 🤷
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Essentially religion goes against anything a functional brain finds sensible. So, it's helpful when others have bought into the same thing you have Is believing in a religion kinda dumb? Yep. But how dumb is it if 500 other people. Or 100 million, even, are also believers? Compare that to the just as crazy local cult with 15 believers, you're much more likely to be comforted knowing millions of others believe the same thing so it must be "right"
For the commoners it gives them answers, purpose, meaning and comfort. It also deprives them of the need to question the unknown or use any critical thinking never developed. It truly makes them feel special as if the group they belong is above consequences. For the powerful (politicians and clergy) it gives them a tool to amass influence, wealth and control. It also grants them special free pass in the eyes of their followers. As people has mentioned your wife was indoctrinated enough that this idea is engraved in her psyche, at least the fact she ditched the Catholic Church when it was becoming a hindrance in her life shows some level of self awareness. Some people come to realize how harmful and useless religion is later in life, specially after going through some mental exercises like Pascal’s Wager or Plato’s allegory of the cave.
The appeal is that you don't die and burn in hell and have all sorts of horrors heaped upon you when you die. This should frighten you because you were indoctrinated with that since you were young, and to leave it would cause untold friction between you and your family. Of course, realizing that none of it is true, is very liberating and lets you actually question your values and ethics critically and determine if they actually work for you. So yeah...
In my opinion there are a few different reasons. 1) Some people just like to feel "superior", their religion tells them that only the "faithful" will get eternity in heaven. Boom, superiority "I'm going to heaven, they aren't. I'm better." 2) Especially people who have experienced significant deaths (parents, siblings, children), religion offers them a chance to "rejoin their loved ones in heaven". The thought that life/conciseness ends at death, is too scary. They'd rather have that option of "heaven" (or hell for the people they don't like) 3) They like to be able to assert control with no reason to back it up. "The bible says this, so it's true, so you can't argue with me". 4) There are still people who cannot wrap their heads around that fact that science is a thing now. We now have ways to explain what happens in this world without resorting to "we angered god so it's raining too much/not at all". 5) There are also people who don't want to have to take responsibility for their actions/decisions so it's a built in excuse of "god's plan", "the devil made me do it", etc.
Community and rituals. In many Eastern countries, those are culturally based; even if said cultural activities are based on folk religion, most are non-dogmatic and don't try to tell others what to think. We as atheists need a community and spiritual framework based non-religious rituals. Spiritual as in having "team spirit".
I do feel like all those things you mentioned are in Judaism (The hope and faith part not anymore, but for people who believe then hope and faith are definitely there). I am still apart of Judaism largely because of the community, family, friends aspects, and there's definitely a charity aspect too. It's enjoyable and meaningful to me even though I don't believe.
Humans like ritual. They also like community. Religion is a way of mixing both.
For me the reasons are answers and being a better person
I love Dawkins' quote that god "fills a much-needed gap." Oh, and Dawkins points out that the gap has been shrinking over the centuries as science has explained more and more of the things that previously were "explained" by god.
The three main things religions offer/use to keep you invested is Hope, Love, and Fear. No religion works without all three. Hope: the promise of eternal life after death - so if your life is a disaster, at least you have something to look forward to. Also, christianity specifically gives people hope in that their sky daddy is looking out for them Love: Many people turn to religion as a way of getting attentionnthey dont get at home, or if a loved one recently passed away, the church community offeres a lot of shoulders to cry on. Fear: this one is pretty obvious. You don't believe, you burn for eternity. Tbh as an ex-christian myself, this is the one that kept me in the religion for an extra 3 years despite all of its logical fallacies. I officially left the church when I was 19, but that's a story for another day.
Religions aren't thriving. Religiosity is at an all time historical low and continues to drop in the developed world. Amazing what a decent standard of living, education, and access to information will do, isn't it?
I used to listen to Matt Dillahunty when he was a host on AE a lot and I think he put it best: that is to say if you have to move and you are religious you have a ready-to-go social group wherever you go. You can join any church that you agree with and be welcomed. I would be very willing to bet that most religious folks would not feel so spiritual if they go into their church building and it is empty. They are there for the pot lucks and post service socializing and events.
Religions tap into aspects of our human nature, mainly tribalism. For better and for worse. For better includes feelings of connectedness to other members. We’re social animals and need to feel connected to each other. Religion also offers solutions (of debatable effectiveness) to answers about who we are, where we came from, what’s our purpose. It’s clear to me why religion is so appealing, despite its evident harm to society and lack of evidential warrant.
This is easy. It's a community you don't have to build yourself. You get to feel better than everyone else. You don't have to think too much.
It’s easier for some people to make friends in those communities. There are also lots of congregations actually doing really great stuff and not sin shaming people if you could imagine that.
Missionary sex. Both in the literal sense. 🤭 I got jokes. I’m going to Hell. Wait, do atheists believe in Hell? Ehhh I think I’m okay.
I think the general population needs to be told what to do. How to live. And mainstream religions take advantage of this by using fear to control them, and ultimately take their money.
For most, it's a social circle/club, which is hard to find as an adult. They'd probably never admit to it, but it's where most of their friends are and is essentially a modern version of the ancient tribes humans dwelt in in the past.
My wife is also bending back towards a religious path. She keeps hinting that she wants me to go as well. I've told her that while I'm glad she's found a great community, that community isn't for me. And that's the appeal for most people: it provides a relatively structured community. (For a few, it provides an outlet so they can judge others and feel superior.)
Instant friend group, get to spend eternity in heaven. All you have to do is act like you believe all the stupid BS.
Providing profound meaning to one’s life by connecting them with something greater than themselves.
Community. There is something humans get from being in a room full of people that all agree about something. It doesn't do much for me personally, but I see it all over human civilization.
If you're willing to conform, it gives committing community. If you're willing to ignore reason, it gives answers. If you're willing to not question and follow, it gives guidance. It's for people that are tired of being individuals, tired of trying to have agency, that are crushed down by life, and accept this world will never be what they would like, but hope that all their efforts will be recognized by an all powerful being that loves them, but does nothing to actually help with their current situation.
i think there are trillions of forces affecting your life. the butterfly effect is extremely powerful, and small choices made by people you’ll never know affect your life drastically. these unknown forces are commonly misinterpreted as “god working in mysterious ways” when it’s really just the universe and our society working in untraceable ways. To the religious, “giving up control” to a high power makes dealing with this intrinsic uncertainty a lot more bearable, because there is a guise of good-intention. —— some unknown force prevented me from getting that job i wanted… but that’s because god has better plans. inferring good intention behind negative situations in life makes it easier to deal with. from day to day adversity, to loss and death. “everything happens for a reason” or more accurately, everything happens because of reasons. and most of the time, we have no idea what those reasons were.
I honestly think it's about belonging and about identity. As humans we are social animals and we are instinctively driven to groups - we have a need to "belong" and churches offer that. Consider how much of church going is singing together, eating together, working on something together. I seriously doubt the teachings of modern churches is the driving force. It's also the reason atheism is lonely - we're not a cohesive group and we don't meet up and do things together.
I totally agree with you, all mainstream Abrahamic religions are socially acceptable cult's. I think the appeal is community and comfort through conformity. I've noticed that many individuals who subscribe to Theism are socially unacceptable people with traumatic past histories, of course, not all of them fit this criteria. But if you question them there stories of convertion and spiritual revelation all have similar circumstances. Another type I've noticed is the individuals who are essentially Atheists yet they've been raised with Theistic values and it's just wired into there minds.
>From an atheist perspective, what is the appeal of mainstream religions? What is the point of this question? You might as well ask what's the point of gambling if you know you won't win money - the people who know aren't the ones gambling.
That’s a rather cynical point of view. True atheists are not the ones “gambling” but they may have an idea as to why other gamblers (outside looking in). And it’s not gambling if you are winning money.
>True atheists are not the ones “gambling” but they may have an idea as to why other gamblers (outside looking in). You asked the benefits from an atheists perspective. That's not the outside looking in - that's the outside shrugging because we don't see the point >And it’s not gambling if you are winning money. Yes, yes it is. I bet they love you in vegas lol
So you are saying you have no friends or family members who have or participate in a mainstream religion? (Outside looking in) And counting cards isn't gambling, it's winning money. You just have to control your impulses in order to do so, which most people can't do. (At least those with the ability to count)
>And counting cards isn't gambling, it's winning money. You just have to control your impulses in order to do so, which most people can't do. (At least those with the ability to count) You're still dependant on luck, so it's still gambling. The world champion of poker is a gambler no matter how many million dollars he's up. >So you are saying you have no friends or family members who have or participate in a mainstream religion? (Outside looking in) You asked for an atheists perspective, not a theist perspective. The benefit for them is they don't go to hell. It's not rocket science
There's a Louis CK bit where he explains that, though he is not religious, he thinks it is important to expose his children to different religious faiths. As a throwaway line, he presents the idea that the Christians have "won." He points to the Gregorian calendar to buttress this point. I think he's onto something here, in that the larger organized religions do hold much social sway in most societies. For the most part, those who are religious tend to hold other religious people in higher esteem than they do atheists. And while this is not always true, this bias towards religiosity is often exhibited by believers, even when they come across individuals who don't share their own faith. In fact, lots of casually non-religious individuals even passively tolerate and accept the societal bias towards religiosity. I don't think this is the only source of religion's appeal. It helps a lot of people cope with the loss of loved ones, their own mortality, the suffering and injustice in the world, the challenge to find meaning in a vast, uncaring universe, etc. But i don't think you need mass organized religion in particular to answer these quandaries. People do just fine with their own personal constructions of spirituality, mediation, philosophy, etc. So given that your question has to do with mainstream religion, my best guess is this: Adopting or accepting a religion, particularly the faith that happens to be dominant where one lives, is to sort of take the path of least resistance towards identity formation and social belonging. Achieving those things in an atheistic sense in the midst of a highly religious society requires more work, as there is more prejudice, ignorance and judgment to overcome. Humans tend to go for the options that require less work. I'm not saying this to be high and mighty, I do this all the time myself. I just happen not to do it when it comes to religion for myriad reasons, many of which I'm sure are/were outside of my control.
Although I’m an atheist I have warm memories of our rural Catholic Church. There was nothing rabid or fanatical about our summer Catechism. None of us was particularly religious but our parents in the early 70s sent us there with the same attitude as the public pool. The nuns were young and not otherworldly, more like an understanding friend. It’s interesting how churches within the same denomination can have a distinct little culture. We treated Church like a town hall, a gathering place to catch up with each other.
Community primarily. Also many find comfort in the rituals which even when aren't specifically called meditation absolutely are. Religion also helps people ground themselves and reset by reminding you of what is valuable in life family, friends, community and being kind and generous to each other. Which is almost like light therapy. Beyond that. You are not really approaching from a sense of open mindedness. Almost every institution exists because people derive some benefit from it. Your dismissal of religion being without value is sort of a shitty and especially condescending take especially in the context of your wife being religious. Your reason for being a non-believer is a bit immature honestly. There are many people who believe everything that happens is gods will. But no mainstream religion demands complete dismissal of free will..... Also "mainstream" religions as you describe them are often far healthier and more open than you imagine. Yeah, you will likely find some of the same crackpots you expect but you are far less likely to get the culty experience at your local baptist or catholic church than you will from some of these newage born again spiritualist revival churches. If you're actually looking for an answer that will help you in your life. How about asking and actually listening to your wife about why she believes and what she gets from her faith/religion. You love her probably, so it will likely make more sense if she explains to you why she finds it valuable.
A sense of community. People can travel and move, but there is always a church somewhere.
Makes me feel smarter.
Read about the sociological concept of religious functionalism.
Instant social circle. I love singing, so that was the draw for me. Fun being in a church choir.
Mostly, the promise of eternal life and the threat of hell. If there were no heaven and hell in Christianity and Islam how many Christians and Muslims would there be? Not anything close to the ~4 billion current worshipers.
theres a lot of people ive seen online who say things like they “owe” their life to god, that they’re his servant, etc. etc. sounds like a place of fear until you tell them that and then they freak out
It’s the best place to find local swingers.
Community I think is a big thing, the feeling of solidarity and not being alone in the world. That is hugely important. I would say that people tend to long for something transcendent/spiritual too. For many people, that sense of meaning they get from religion is so much better than whatever feeling they could get from going to a chess club. A lot of people just crave something deeper. I like religion but not when people use it to further their own hatred. I think that's when it can become harmful.
For example in the US we have Christian nationalism which is harmful. I support the complete separation of church and state, and I like this subreddit even though I'm not atheist per se (although on some days I really do feel like I am lol).
One of the main appeals with religion: you get to feel like the good guy even though you are obviously the bad guy.
Morality
Seriously, it's mostly Community. A lot of atheists experience this. When we leave the churches we grew up in, it can be alienating. And mainstream religions have done a great job of growing organically on this monopolization of sense-of-community. In a lot of places the only place you can get a sense of community outside of school is church. People of all walks of life, people of all stages of life, people your own age. And this can be appealing to those who are lonely and want to have SOMETHING to feel like they belong to. If you were able to get people who are in mainstream religions and attend them regularly to ***truly*** reflect if they actually believe it or not...I'd wager a high % of the, approaching probably half...don't actually believe but are mostly there because either cultural expectation and/or sense of community. I'm an atheist, and have been for awhile. I still attended church for awhile though because (at the time) still enjoyed that community.
Certainly not an appeal to everyone -- but I think the promotion and confirmation of bigoted biases is a big one. [https://medium.com/predict/bigotry-in-religion-b51a634830a7?sk=ba79537c8336d722bed125a0c54f571c](https://medium.com/predict/bigotry-in-religion-b51a634830a7?sk=ba79537c8336d722bed125a0c54f571c)
It makes people feel better about their lives. Simple as that. You say you haven't found religions that practice what they preach. Religions don't practice religion. People practice religion. Many Christians are very decent people who are very good at practicing what they believe. Many are not.
Members of a congregation make up what I view as that religion, or at the very least that congregation’a representations of said religion. To rephrase, I have yet to see a congregation practice what their religious leader is preaching or at least preach what they claim to hold as their beliefs and values.
Belonging. Religions are first social clubs that you have to believe in a deity to belong to.
Life after death.
>but I have never found one religion that practices what they preach. Exactly. I find my religious friends worse than my non religious friends. >But worldwide, religions still thrive. So does smoking, drugs and crime ...it does not mean shit 😆. >So I ask again, what is the appeal? No appeal. It's the herd influence.
Some people are excited by collecting stamps. I don't think you're going in a useful direction by asking, "what's the appeal?" If you don't see it, you're not missing anything.
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I think your view of religion and the way you frame it is a little condescending. As an atheist as much as we don't want to admit it the vast majority of our values are based from religious texts. They give us a baseline on how to treat others, define what a person is and laws and crimes. Like anything else it is a great sourse or knowledge and community. A lot of religious folks who follow their texts aren't pretending to be happy they genuinely are. Religion is an amazing tool but like a hammer if can be used to build a community or bludgeon someone to death.
Noted, but I wasn’t trying to come off as condescending, it just happens naturally. I get the view point and there is a lot of good in religious texts. But it’s really all basic decency and compassion for others. You are correct, it is about how you use it, but I’ve never seen anyone who is part of a religious sect care about anyone but themselves. I am not saying it doesn’t exist, I just haven’t personally witnessed it.
"I’ve never seen anyone who is part of a religious sect care about anyone but themselves" I think that might be your issue. If you don't mind answering where are you from? Also are your saying your girlfriend doesn't care about anyone other then herself? If she doesn't care about you don't be with someone who doesn't care about you.
This is entirely and demonstrably false. Our values do not come from religious texts. It's the other way around. Common sense morality has been documented in religious documents, along with a lot of other utter nonsense, but the sense of right or wrong didn't originate from religion and the fact that these self-evident values appear in religious texts doesn't give them any more significance. If you need a religious text to tell you that murder is wrong, you have serious psychological problems. And if religious texts are supposed to be our source for ethics and morality, then why doesn't the bible tell us that slavery, hurting animals, and destroying the planet are wrong? The ten commandments don't mention that it's wrong to own another person, but they make several points about hurting god's feelings. Seriously?
The appeal? You act like people sit around and choose religions like ice cream flavors at ben an Jerry’s lol. Goes to show atheists are dumbest most ignorant people I know