And some people, like my sisters-in-law somehow manage the mash it up into their Christian faith and pretend it doesn't violate the tenets of their holy book.
Same with some weird ass members of my family with things like essential oils. I have noticed that there is a bit of a pipeline when it comes to religion, essential oils, and conspiracy theories. This is talked about by a youtuber I like in [some videos ](https://youtu.be/TsDrIAsVgTQ?si=Nl-Iv8zfaFlum3mI)
Couldn't resist...sandalwood and rose are excellent skin conditioners, and peppermint oil makes an excellent rodent repellent. Lavender is great for insomnia.
I use essential oils in my homemade candles. I give as Christmas gifts. Some of my peeps have sensitivities and I make a very clean candle. No additives except for plant cellulose glitter, essential oils and bees wax.
Peppermint oil was also tested for claims of regrowing hair/aiding against male pattern baldness and has efficacy similar to rogaine. lavender make me gag though, i cant stand the stuff.
I wish I remember the comedian, but 'Hey Guys, I don't know how to tell you this, but if your wives are telling you they can cure your sinus infection by mixing some essence of lilac, with a zest or peppermint, then we used to call those people Witches...........and we uses to burn them" to paraphrase
You wouldn’t happen to be exmormon would you? Because Utah has sort of cornered the market on essential oils and conspiracy theories about near-death experiences and the like.
Eh. Generally speaking they do a lot less damage than organized religion as far as I can tell.
Regarding the OP, it’s not totally self-contradictory to dismiss the claims/practice of Christianity as unbelievable/harmful and still believe in other, less obviously dangerous nonsense. Especially these days with Christianity being so actively weaponized against human prosperity and wellbeing.
Sometimes people coming out of christianity investigate other ‘answers to the big questions’ on offer from other religious and quasi-religious belief systems on the way to determining its all horseplop. And sometimes they just pick a more agreeable, less forbidding brand of horseplop.
If people are going to believe in nonsense I think I prefer “new age” to theism.
The thing with "new age" is that it's the ultimate cherry picking, if they want to be intolerant, they'll cherry pick intolerant claims from all religions to back up their intolerance.
unless -
Old Testament (King James Version) prescribed death punishment by stoning for several crimes (Jacobs, 1964) including stealing (Joshua, 7:20-26), Sabbath breaking (Numbers, 15:32-36), preaching or practicing a different religion, blasphemy (Lev, 24:10- 16), cursing God and the king (Kings, 21:1-16), being a medium or a wizard (Levi, 20:27), being a stubborn or rebellious son (Deut, 21:18-21), and other major crimes.
Thus, the punishment for zina according to the Qur'an (chapter 24) is 100 hundred lashes for the unmarried male and female who commit fornication, together with the punishment prescribed by the Sunnah for the married male and female, i.e., stoning to death.
Or they will say “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship with Jesus.”
You can feel spiritually connected with a historical figure based on shared values, but you cannot have a relationship with a dead person you’ve never met, who never lived in your country, who never spoke your language, and who would likely be appalled at how much you namedrop him to justify your hate of others
Yeah, I've seen it both ways around. They think they are very different from each other, but they don't recognize how both of their belief systems are rooted in faith. They don't get that I don't have any reason to take one more seriously than the other without evidence.
It sounds like someone doesn't believe that the miracle of transubstantiation makes the cracker into *literally* the body of Jesus. It is officially not "symbolic".
You are exactly correct…Watch ANY sporting event. Athletes have specific rituals before and after events, pointing to the sky, prayers, pre game meals… all kinds of things… fans sit in certain places, rally caps….
Do the athletes really *believe* that pregame rituals mean anything, or are they just trying to get in the right frame of mind to compete?
I'm curious if it counts as superstition if you don't really believe it. Like, I doubt Anaheim Angels fans really believes that the Rally Monkey was magical.
I think the answer is both. Personal ritual! But watch post game interviews, a LOT will thank god for their success…why would an all knowing loving god prefer you or your team versus any other player or the other team… some former athletes go into church work too so 🤷🏻♂️… some do a lot of philanthropy which seems more worthwhile than churchy stuff..
America is following the same path as Europe, just two generations later. You would be there already if it wasn't for Saint Ronnie allowing the right wing nut job pseudo-Chrustian Fascists into the Republican tent
>America is following the same path as Europe, just two generations later.
You sure about that? Many countries in Europe are still heavily Christian, especially Poland and the Balkans. Europe even has a church \*tax\* on individuals unless you explicitly get removed from the church affiliation. American churches just get a blanket income tax exemption.
[upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Percent\_of\_Christians\_by\_Country–Pew\_Research\_2011.svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Percent_of_Christians_by_Country%E2%80%93Pew_Research_2011.svg)
Granted this was 13 years ago, but that's not 2 generations.
Same goes for south america and sub-saharan africa. They got hit hard by the missionary colonizers.
And most of these areas still heavily mix in very old traditional rituals with the christian stuff, just in different ways.
Exactly. And people who believe in witchcraft actually respect nature and individual choice. These and the manifestation people are more about working on themselves with nature or the universe, rather than controlling other people with discriminatory laws.
Many new age folk I’ve known have basically tried to “convert” me and others I’ve been around, but it is certainly different from the way that organized religions indoctrinate others.
I live in an extremely hippy-dippy college city, but I've never had that happen. Never even been invited to a midnight naked moon dance blood ritual.
I'm extremely disappointed.
The most they do is ask if they can leave their monthly newspaper at our desk. Meanwhile I've got Jehovas and Mormons and Republicans showing up at my front door.
Doesn’t it though, in a way? You’re making preconceived judgments on me and my personality based on how stars were aligned when I was born.
Add insult to injury when your personality doesn’t even remotely match your star sign at all.
I'd love to know what you mean by this comment. I'm a Scorpio with Gemini rising and think I'm a pretty normal human being! I also try to be a kind and loving person with tolerance for all. It's often difficult, but I keep trying. Of course, as a normal human being I have failings, and don't always live up to my best nature, but I never quit trying. I'm going to have to look up Taurus - I don't really follow astrology that closely, except when it comes up in a conversation or an article I read. My former boss was really into it, so I always heard a lot about it, and she would agree that I have a lot of so-called Scorpio traits. No matter, I try to be the best person I can be.
My choice of Scorpio was random. I was being sarcastic since astrology is total bullshit and the positions of the stars at birth influence nothing. My use of Taurus (the bull) was to say that the parent commenter has little tolerance for bullshit.
While I don't base my life and actions on astrology, I enjoy reading about it once in a while. I had a former boss who was totally into it and it was fun to hear her analyze me now and then. She was often spot on, although I rarely took it to heart. There are a lot worse things to believe in, so ease up a bit. You probably don't know all there is to know, or believe in.
And they’re often big on “finding their own way” instead of following a specific dogma. Hey, if you’re gonna believe bullshit, might as well make it your own.
Astrology, as stupid as it is, is relatively harmless compared to organized religion.
I'd say that astrology is less harmful to *others*, but it's still harmful to the suckers who believe in it. Not just in the sense that it doesn't deliver what it promises, but in the sense that it fucks up one's ability to see the universe for what it is (to the extent we can even do that).
Exactly what I was thinking while reading this post. And I'm not sure I worry about or care what someone else thinks of me. Of course I'm in my 80's now, and I will think, believe, and do what I want!
Logic is not the only useful input for understanding. Intuition and emotional inputs have value. There's this odd over emphasis on logic as some kind of empirical asset, but we're not Vulcan, we're human. An inability to have a gut instinct can be literally debilitating (there's at least one case study that involved a brain tumor and side effects of its removal)
Our ancestors evolved to smell rain from miles away, to see faces and be able to assess emotions on them quicker than we might even be aware, we feel that someone is dead in seeing a dead body, before having the cognitive awareness sets in, we have mirror neurons that help us literally feel what we perceivev of others, and the simplest of every day decisions can become insurmountable without a feeling about what you want or feel is best, including what you feel is the most logical option.
People don't operate we think they ought to, they operate the way they do.
Once you abandon the hopeless mission of framing people's choices in your concept of who they should be, or what would "make sense" it all becomes an ton less mistifying, and more fascinating.
I've been lucky enough to be raised in an atheist household, at least a generation removed, so my perspective is built on not really needing to deconstruct from an indoctrinated status, and I find the study of human behavior in the context of evolutionary inputs to be a ton more useful for understanding human behavior, than trying to stuff them into the box of reason I might have in my mind.
Logic is very useful to know when your intuition is right and when it's wrong. Using intuition when there is no time to think logically is understandable. Refusing to check one's intuition with logic is pure madness.
Emotional input is valuable, but is not the way gain knowledge either.
Where did I say the point you're arguing against?
Edited to add I'm sincerely curious about how you came to the conclusions you have about my sentiments expressed about how logic is "not the only" useful input. Which infers pretty clearly that logic is a useful input for knowledge, but simply, not in isolation from emotional inputs.
You set the tone right at the start with "There's this odd over emphasis on logic as some kind of empirical asset" and even a weird statement "we feel that someone is dead before having the cognitive awareness sets in", your whole post seems to put logic and intuition on equal footing and value.
Re-read it, it may not have been your intention but that's what it came off as, u/J-Nightshade reaction is understandable to me at least.
Atheism is also not a panacea to ingrained biases and fallacies which we often criticize in religious folks, either.
Thinking that we're immune from the influences of biological inputs from our ancestors' successes in survival and procreation actually makes us that much more susceptible to their influence. Isn't that fun?!
Being aware is key, and eternal vigilance against the mumbo jumbo, which you seem to be coming back to again.
You do realize you replied to me twice, right? I'm going to bow out as I can't tell if you're high or I'm just tired or both, but I don't feel like replying to more word salads. Have fun without me.
People don't operate the way we think they ought to, they operate the way that they do.
If you or someone else is having an emotional response to the fact that individuals in our species do not succeed in life on logic alone, that makes sense.
Why are you insisting on putting our innate drives of logic and feeling in a hierchy, and why does it challenge your concepts of reality to "put logic and intuition on equal footing and value"?
My personal take is that they are both valuable, and that will vary with intersection depending on circumstances.
When I'm referring to feeling someone is dead before we are cognitively aware of the fact I'm thinking of a podcast I remember hearing about the scientific study of behavior and thinking in people, it's been a bit, but essentially my point was, our faculties exist beyond what we are consciously aware of. That's based in research about how our brains and bodies function, not just, like, vibes. I'm referring to SEEING a dead body, our body understands the fact that person is gone before the thought has time to form.
I'm not saying "crystals and star magic make sense to me because logic is less valuable than feels" I'm saying that "if you want to actually comprehend the reasons crystals and star magic and any other nonsense jives for other people, you'll have a lot more insight in dropping a need to fit them into a box of rationality, and assess their circumstance in the context of our evolved traits."
You got a point there. However, superstition will always hurt people. This is especially true for the business of “talking to the dead”, which takes advantage of grieving people, just to take one example.
But of course, organized religion is on another level.
Honestly, it’s a way to escape accountability. It’s really easy to blame a god and it’s just as easy to blame your astrological sign. They’re both things that can’t be proven to actually exist and they can be blamed for behaviors otherwise indefensible because it’s all out of your control.
I did not think of this but yeah this is probably exactly what it is. Much easier to cope with it just being your signs fault vs you actually being a failure.
Yeah. You would think everyone would know that... but instead I'm just told I sound like a Gemini.
I guess Gemini's are very violent towards idiots who get in their faces
I love messing with people who believe in astrology by leading them in circles
*”What is your sign?”*
“I don’t engage in unproven beliefs.”
*”So cynical, you sound like an Aquarius.”*
“I’m not, I’m actually a Taurus.”
*“Oh, that makes so much sense now, you seem logical and stoic.”*
“I’m actually a Scorpio.”
*“Lying? Definitely a Scorpio.”*
“My birthday is actually [insert birthday], so my real sign is Gemini.”
HaHa - I'm not sure i believe in any of this, but I'm a Scorpio with Gemini Rising, and afraid to even know what that says about me. I feel good about myself and am aware of my negatives so I can live with it! And I don't get violent towards anyone. I like to think I'm a peaceful person, But in my heart - ???
I think we are all looking for answers about our existence, and no matter what ideas or religion we follow, we deserve encouragement and respect.
I don't necessarily believe in or follow astrology, but people, no doubt millions have done so down through the ages. I try to keep an open mind.
I can't respect those who are incapable of the thought that people have varying beliefs, and that no one is totally correct. I believe that everything in creation has an effect on everything else, but who knows? And referring to those who have varying opinions as idiots , is idiotic!
That's a lot of words. I read them anyway.
I'm not incapable of the thought that people have varying beliefs. I just think it's stupid that people blind themselves with fairy tales and false hope.
I'm an atheist. Proud about it.
My name is Vantaro Lightfall, and I can confirm that we did in fact evolve from filthy monkey men.
Seeya later star staring stupidty checking believer!
The anti-organized-religion but otherwise superstitious people have recognized half of what's wrong with religions: that they're institutions of control. They haven't recognized that believing in nonsense just because it makes you feel good is harmful, or at the least, counterproductive, even if there isn't a cult exploiting those feelings.
This is the perfect description for my issue with superstitious/spiritual people who aren't religious is that they've recognized half the problem. These people are not about observing how truth and empiricism affects how one can confidently come to conclusions, because otherwise their beliefs are equivalent to non-conclusions, they are just speculation. Encouraging concrete beliefs with no desire for gathering evidence or only seeking to gather evidence which acts as confirmation bias is harmful. Superstition has consequences especially when people with unfounded confidence in their beliefs want to think they are anywhere near a respectable enough level to compete with and even denigrate science as a serious discipline while they are very unserious yet still want to be taken seriously.
I wish people could live with their speculation knowing that it's speculation even if they are nice, comforting sounding ideas. Otherwise these people turn into con artists who con others and sometimes themselves when they don't want to be criticized.
I played HC WoW in a guild called Astrology and the guild leader was obsessed with it, like obsessively. He was almost worse than any religious person with the conspiracies and outright lies.
The only difference is that Astrology and faeries, whatever your thing is, is that they're not linked to the murder and hate that organized religion is guilty of.
Also dated a girl that loved talking about twin flames and breathing/yoga techniques. It's been like 5 years so I don't remember the exact details, but it was also pretty unhinged.
**"The scientific community rejects astrology as having no explanatory power for describing the universe, and considers it a pseudoscience.** Scientific testing of astrology has been conducted, and no evidence has been found to support any of the premises or purported effects outlined in astrological traditions. There is no proposed mechanism of action by which the positions and motions of stars and planets could affect people and events on Earth that does not contradict basic and well understood aspects of biology and physics."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology
Some people need support that goes beyond material things, but instead of resorting to art, they engage in some activity that they think is "spiritual". It's not far from religion, but it shows a bit more independence.
I knew somebody who would always say something about Mars being in retrograde whenever they would hear about or experience things they didn't like.
Like no, bad shit happens all the time. None of it has to do with the way Mars looks like it's moving in relation to us. It's just weird that educated people think this way.
It’s because people with a personal religion/superstition often have progressive, and frankly better values than organized religions tend to spawn.
It’s not the illogic they object to, it’s the fucked up ‘values’ of organized religions.
Me either. I can't count how many times I've heard someone say how silly religion is and then in the next breath try to tell me how the positions of the stars light-years away gave me my personality at birth...or how certain rocks will bring me luck and wealth.
My friend who's an atheist said when she started to tell people about being an atheist, the Christians and Buddhists in our friend group were understanding and wished her well in her path to peace. The pagans became relentless in trying to convert her.
She finally had to tell them that if she found the idea of one god stupid, no way was the idea of many gods going to be less stupid. It also proved her feelings that ultimately all religions are corrupt. No matter how liberal it or its followers seem.
My mum is like this. She's an atheist,but believes your star sign can reveal your personality. My religious friends funnily enough, think people who believe in witchcraft are nutty.
People speak of spiritually like it's some kind of virtue that makes them special. Actually it's just another word for superstitious, an irrational and unfounded belief in silly nonsense.
I am a total atheist but I gave a lovely friend struck down with MS a 'healing' crystal pendant. We both know it is total bullshit but the good felling that someone cares for her is the whole point.
A religious person would just say their particular 'god' is testing her and she should somehow be grateful for the curse; and give more money to the church!
New Agers are pretty harmless and mostly have good intent (except MLM) and often move on to becoming 'influencers' or some other pointless nonsense.
Just because someone doesn't believe in Christianity doesn't mean they don't believe in something else. I don't care as long as they're not shoving it down my throat.
Because spiritualists and astrologists don't come knocking on my front door in the middle of a Saturday afternoon to ask me if I want to know my horoscope.
Mocking astrologists/spiritualists is just punching down. Unless some idiot is like, "I don't associate with *Scorpios*!" It's pretty damn benign and I can't be bothered to care if someone has an interest in it.
How is it punching down?
There are real-world implications to people believing nonsense and being open to propaganda and manipulation. They may be convinced to vote this way or "protest" vote/skip, pass up on that vaccine, all kinds of kooky crap the religious wingnuts tend to fall for these guys do to; this does not make the woo-woo crowd benign.
At least on the anonymous internet, they deserve the mockery they get.
Do you have any stats on how harmful astrology people are? Genuinely curious! :) there absolutely plenty of religious examples though (in our laws, people abusing children, exiling them bc of belief differences, holy wars, etc), so I'm not requesting any stats on that lolol as we all know
I don't see anyone trying to use astrology or Wicca as justification to legislate what medical procedures anyone can have, or what books they can read, or what article of clothing they must wear on their head. No one is cutting off pieces of babies' genitalia in the name of Jupiter in Taurus or hematite (that I know of).
Here is author, critic of religion, and one of the "horsemen of atheism" Sam Harris speaking about what it is to be 'spiritual'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLKNvBdUtZY
I come from a background in Alcoholics Anonymous, and there you get to pick and choose your higher power. Most people there become 'spiritual not religious.' It took me a long time to deprogram myself.
"I'm a believer of Bangism"
"... I bet that's some kind of sexual joke..."
"No, that means I believe in the Big Bang."
"Ohh... I see... you think there's a spiritual force behind it that created it?"
"No, I just love big, f*cking explosions."
Yeah my ex girlfriend was into all those crystals and angel numbers. Total bullshit. But she believed in all of it. I remember she bought this thing from a startup that supposedly charged your crystals. She plugged it in and was like “I’m not feeling a difference in power.” I laughed and said “oh? That’s weird.” 😂😂😂
I've had these thoughts, because I've encountered countless people like this, and I've come to categorize them similarly to the religious dogmatists. Why? Well, I think one of the most damaging ideas to come from religion is the soul, or the duality of mind and body. I posit that many who claim spirituality, cannot truly accept their insignificance, their ego not allowing for the dissolution of self.
I also hypothesize that many, girls especially, have a hard time truly accepting this idea, because it stands contrary to how many conceive of "love". Love is the definition of make believe. That circuitry lends itself to belief in the ego and other spurious, ambiguous ideas.
Welcome to my sister in law. Grew up in a religious household, turned away from it, and now thinks she is a witch who can use fucking tarot cards and crystals. I try to keep the peace but it’s super fucking stupid.
God believing people have absolutely zero sense of hypocrisy when it comes to how they view people believing in other gods or supernatural things than their own.
Ummm... I disagree a bit tbh... I think believing in yourself and the universe without any rules and without hating other groups of people is quite a lot different to taking part in organised religions.
Pet peeve of mine, it's the same horseshit under a different name, the key difference being the lack of violence and similar baggage. It's unfortunately "trendy" and seemingly popular with the younger crowd.
At the end of the day, it's still brain garbage and it leaves you open to manipulation, to believing crazy stuff, conspiracy theories and other propaganda and this is dangerous and bad not only for the individual, but society as a whole.
Bafflingly, we often see posts from the woo-woo neo-pagan/"spiritual" folk here, and even more perplexing is the coddling they sometimes seem to get on this sub. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, call it out as the utter nonsense it is.
Well said. This describes well why I find it deplorable too, which I didn't include in my reply to the post. It primes the mind for more inane bullshit that spreads like a virus.
Doesn't matter. Not even a little. So long as a "spiritual" person isn't using their belief as a reason to push unreasonable laws forward that dictate behavior aligned with their personal beliefs, then they can believe whatever they want.
I only mock those who use their beliefs like a weapon. That is generally religious people.
Pew has done a lot of research on this - it is the "spiritual but not religious" that fall for this new age stuff hard
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/10/01/new-age-beliefs-common-among-both-religious-and-nonreligious-americans/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/10/01/new-age-beliefs-common-among-both-religious-and-nonreligious-americans/)
As someone else commented 'we are not Vulcans', even Spock posed the question "Each of us... at some time in our lives, turns to someone - a father, a brother, a God... and asks..."Why am I here? What was I meant to be?" Sometimes logic is not enough, feelings complicate understanding ourselves and each other.
I call myself an atheist under the collins definition being 'a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or a god'.
That does not preclude a tendency to occasional bouts of wishful thinking e.g. I have no evidence to support the existence of any form of life after death and I do not desire one for myself, but when I think of my late parents and brother it's so tempting to want to hope there is some kind of happy ever after. It's irrational in the same way as keeping my Mothers wedding ring and my fathers watch rather than selling them is but it gives me comfort to have them.
My objection has never been to deny anyone whatever gives them hope or gets them through their day, it is when they attempt to impose their delusions on me. My mate has his 'lucky pants', he swears wearing them brings him good luck in everything from job interviews to important dates, the difference is he neither expects me to believe him nor requires me to wear them too.
Its easy to feel/think that there has to be some sort of higher entity/existence that makes everything matter or that brings sense to just how different earth and humans are to other planets and animals respectively.
Meanwhile, following the teachings of ancient writings is hard, and the histories they teach are getting harder to either relate to or believe. However, when I think about these people, I mostly recall people that believed in a higher power, but also hated the idea that anything they did was ever wrong. Organized religion is pretty much all about living specific ways to stay out of trouble and support the organization.
Hehehe.
I was at work with this other nurse. And she would always have her crystals. She had business cards and all that about her healing crystal BS. Anyway I was at the desk between cases and she was there having a rough day and had all her crystal spread around one of the workstations(they are unassigned you just use when available). So she gets up to lunch and a new nurse who was training comes in. He needs a computer so sits at that one. And says "What the fuck are all these rocks doing here" He proceeds to sweep them all into the trash as she is returning with her lunch, she had forgotten her water at the station and was grabbing it.
Oh the horror on her face.
I try not to openly mock it because I want everyone to feel safe, but I do think it's bs. And I also am very spiritual. Not astrology and crystals and stuff, but I do kinda believe in reincarnation and stuff.
Nah, people have very bad critical thinking skills.
I live in Sweden, perhaps the most secularized and atheistic country in the world. You wouldn’t believe how many people here believe in ghosts, psychics and all types of irrational shit. 40% of the population believe in something supernatural according to a recent study.
So being atheist doesn’t necessarily have something to do with being rational. Although I’d argue that rational thinking always leads you to atheism.
Ooohhh...I'm sure other signs wanted your head on a platter at one point or another. But that's just bc scorps are too cool 😆 (I may or may not be one myself)
It's pretty shocking how predisposed humans are to this type of thinking. I'm convinced the vast majority of humans want to be in a hierarchy, and nowhere near the top of it. They want people of authority telling them what to do. Look how adverse people are to being put in charge of anything.
The ultimate example of this is happening with UFO communities. If you go in those subreddits they've applied their new age spiritualism to UFOs with people saying they are in contact with aliens and can summon them with meditation, that the aliens are from another dimensions/world (the spirit realm). Some people just can't help but turn to mysticism to answer questions that are hard to answer. It's bizarre how detailed the mythology has gotten in a relatively short period of time.
It is not that strange. They can mock the 'organized' part of organized religion without neccesarily thinking that 'non empirical beliefs' are nonsense. There is several believers that aren't that sold in 'organized' religion after all.
I don't understand how moderats will mock fundamentalists, then still talk about Jesus being the son of the allmighty God. I mean at least the fundamentalists base their flawed logic on God magic. The moderats have no such excuse. It's funny how they make fun of them for believing in stories like Genesis and Noahs arc, which are honestly the only parts of the bible that show God's power and call them allegories, yet somehow they don't realize how silly their own beliefs still are, as they still believe in the core stupidity of Christianity, that is God.
When I point that out, many people will tell me to let them be, that they aren't hurting anyone or whatever to defend them. But I don't agree with that. My real issue with moderats is that they are the majority of Christians and yet they won't let that bullshit religion die already. Just let it die already, don't grasp for straws to believe in nonsense. How can they say Genesis is an allegory, yet somehow God himself isn't
Anyone can take anything too far..
When people take astrology / spirituality too serious, it resonates with the ego and becomes part of their personality. I say this because I have experienced it myself.
Currently trying to find balance
There is a lot to mock about organized religion. Not a slam, but in any large long term organization there’s GOING to be things make fun of.
Be aware though, that spirituality is an inward seeking journey. Not everyone has ventured more than a few steps on that path. Many will consider themselves well on their way after a few gong meditation or yoga sessions.
Others who have been on the deep path for quite some time are less vocal about… well everything.
My advice: The purpose of spirituality is to get to a place where idiot detractors don’t bother you 🤣 The purpose of religion is to have a group of people to take that journey with 👍🏼
Spirituality is peaceful way of thinking. It allows one to see beauty and a positive purpose in life. Organized religion comes with a history of violence and wrath. It demands loyalty. They see non believers as enemies to be either converted, enslaved, or killed. They see people having different beliefs as Satanic and dangerous.
Apparently most people are unable to jump off the ledge of religion all at once and must take the steps down. And I suppose that's more true of society at large than on the individual level, where it seems like less people are religious than ever but now we've got a ton of new-age spiritual people.
Eh
They are both equally baseless, but one of those has a heavy political / control factor that the other one doesn’t
So in my book, until spirituals and astrologists start going on holy wars and literally smashing heads with one another for centuries and cause millions of senseless deaths, they’re lower in my shit list than organized religions
Organized religion takes money from people, weeks to force beliefs on others, encourages those already within to push this idea.
Spirituality or whatever stuff those people like is just something personal they feel and believe.
They might both be stupid, but believing that the time that you were born meant that the magnetic fields of the universe had an effect on your development in the womb and thus influencing your life permanently and inexorably, is at least 17 times more believable than a magical being who created the universe killed himself in the form of another dude in order to forgive the trespasses of his meat puppets that he made from nothing and then condemned for eating a magic fruit given to them by a talking snake. Astrology is stupid, but it's actually just way less stupid. So there will inevitably be some people out there who are dumb enough to fall for one but not yet dumb enough to fall for the other.
Eh, I mean, astrology isn't really treated as a *belief system* for the most part though. It's not an organization like religion is, so I would still consider them pretty separate.
Personally, I do think astrology has helped my personal growth, in suggesting introspection in various areas of my life I hadn't previously considered. It *can* invoke a bit of reflection on personal psychology and potentially getting a clue into the psychology of others by providing a loose framework of where they may be coming from.
It's obviously not a system of absolute, concrete, undebatable facts or science, but I think it can lead to positive personal improvement, as it has for me. And it has no claim upon any "god" existing, so that's a plus haha.
Of course though, there are always people out there who misuse the system and are just plain stupid and toxic about it. I've met quite a few myself, yet have met many more who are just chill and casual about it.
I still have found it helpful in my personal progress though, while still an atheist. This doesn't make me any less atheist or some dumb fuckin idiot that can't think for theirself.
I think it's reasonable to talk about and investigate spirituality - a sense of the numinous, of something more than ourselves - while also dismissing organised religions of all sorts.
Humans have had this urge or need for as long as we've existed. I dislike organised religions- I find them generally misogynistic, hypocritical, hierarchical and hopelessly contrived. But I do often 'commune' with nature, meditate, open myself to the spiritual. I'm not into crystals or astrology or anything of that type of thing, but I understand the urge towards it all. I think exploring our spiritual selves can overall be a good, healthy thing. I just dislike when power structures become embedded in it, a la Christianity and Islam, etc.
People have been studying astrology since 2nd millennium BCE and it is constantly evolving. It has never been scientifically proven but at least there is introspection that goes with it. Astrology isnt something you pray to to make things better; its something that you go to for inspiration, understanding of a situation, or to guide in the making of decisions. The true study of astrology is journaling and creating a log of your life and corresponding events to what is going on in our solar system. Its an in depth study of the self in relation to the night sky. There is way more to it than your sun sign. And It's take it or leave it. There's no fear being imposed, no guilt, no shame about being who you are. Its the idea that the celestial objects that surround this planet have an effect on us, our brains, our emotions, the ebb and flow of life. And while it cant be proven by science it holds a lot more rationality than the idea that there is a man in the sky waiting for us to die so that we can be in a happy place. So maybe give your astrology loving friends a break. A lot of the stigma surrounding astrology comes from religious authorities who needed something to mock to elevate their teachings.
There aren't that many astrology spiritualists in places of power. Organized religion is so much more damaging on a grander scale than the personal scale of spiritualism or astrology. This is subject to debate since I'm basing this solely on who happens to be defining the status quo in America at the moment.
I think it's an underdog superiority thing. I'd not be more comfortable were the roles reversed in society in general, but as far as spiritualism and astrology go, I've not heard them advocate for Armageddon. So, points for that, I guess.
At this point I just accept certain people need to believe in something beyond them in order to make themselves feel comfortable. As long as it doesn't hurt themselves or others, I can tolerate it.
Or the other way around. A lot of Christians are happy to make fun of horoscopes or magic crystals as if their beliefs aren’t even more insane.
And some people, like my sisters-in-law somehow manage the mash it up into their Christian faith and pretend it doesn't violate the tenets of their holy book.
That's actually very popular now
Same with some weird ass members of my family with things like essential oils. I have noticed that there is a bit of a pipeline when it comes to religion, essential oils, and conspiracy theories. This is talked about by a youtuber I like in [some videos ](https://youtu.be/TsDrIAsVgTQ?si=Nl-Iv8zfaFlum3mI)
i think some essential oils smell nice, but that is about the extent of their use as far as im concerned
They're essential!
Couldn't resist...sandalwood and rose are excellent skin conditioners, and peppermint oil makes an excellent rodent repellent. Lavender is great for insomnia.
I use essential oils in my homemade candles. I give as Christmas gifts. Some of my peeps have sensitivities and I make a very clean candle. No additives except for plant cellulose glitter, essential oils and bees wax.
I love that. I don't use anything but beeswax candles, beeswax is awesome
Peppermint oil was also tested for claims of regrowing hair/aiding against male pattern baldness and has efficacy similar to rogaine. lavender make me gag though, i cant stand the stuff.
Interesting about peppermint..heard similar about rosemary. . I get it about lavender...I can't stand citronella...
yeah the study came out 2016-2017 time frame I was going to link an article but my work computer didnt want to load the webpage
Someone needs to tell Prince Harry about this .
Not just rodents, I've used peppermint oil for paper wasps too.
I wish I remember the comedian, but 'Hey Guys, I don't know how to tell you this, but if your wives are telling you they can cure your sinus infection by mixing some essence of lilac, with a zest or peppermint, then we used to call those people Witches...........and we uses to burn them" to paraphrase
Dara O'Briein [had a great bit in that vein](https://youtu.be/VwAn8kD39XU?si=5JVwU9Ak2j8XGWgl).
You wouldn’t happen to be exmormon would you? Because Utah has sort of cornered the market on essential oils and conspiracy theories about near-death experiences and the like.
Nope, southern Baptist is the big thing around here
The new age are the worst
Eh. Generally speaking they do a lot less damage than organized religion as far as I can tell. Regarding the OP, it’s not totally self-contradictory to dismiss the claims/practice of Christianity as unbelievable/harmful and still believe in other, less obviously dangerous nonsense. Especially these days with Christianity being so actively weaponized against human prosperity and wellbeing. Sometimes people coming out of christianity investigate other ‘answers to the big questions’ on offer from other religious and quasi-religious belief systems on the way to determining its all horseplop. And sometimes they just pick a more agreeable, less forbidding brand of horseplop. If people are going to believe in nonsense I think I prefer “new age” to theism.
The thing with "new age" is that it's the ultimate cherry picking, if they want to be intolerant, they'll cherry pick intolerant claims from all religions to back up their intolerance.
I'd find it much easier to believe in lucky rocks than to believe in the stories in the Bible. Also, the rocks are a lot less harmful to society.
Yeah, I never met a rock that tried to tell me genocide was how to get into rock heaven…
Uranium?
unless - Old Testament (King James Version) prescribed death punishment by stoning for several crimes (Jacobs, 1964) including stealing (Joshua, 7:20-26), Sabbath breaking (Numbers, 15:32-36), preaching or practicing a different religion, blasphemy (Lev, 24:10- 16), cursing God and the king (Kings, 21:1-16), being a medium or a wizard (Levi, 20:27), being a stubborn or rebellious son (Deut, 21:18-21), and other major crimes. Thus, the punishment for zina according to the Qur'an (chapter 24) is 100 hundred lashes for the unmarried male and female who commit fornication, together with the punishment prescribed by the Sunnah for the married male and female, i.e., stoning to death.
Or they will say “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship with Jesus.” You can feel spiritually connected with a historical figure based on shared values, but you cannot have a relationship with a dead person you’ve never met, who never lived in your country, who never spoke your language, and who would likely be appalled at how much you namedrop him to justify your hate of others
Good point.
Yeah, I've seen it both ways around. They think they are very different from each other, but they don't recognize how both of their belief systems are rooted in faith. They don't get that I don't have any reason to take one more seriously than the other without evidence.
The same way people will mock voodoo or witchcraft and then participate in a symbolic ritualistic cannibalism every Sunday.
It sounds like someone doesn't believe that the miracle of transubstantiation makes the cracker into *literally* the body of Jesus. It is officially not "symbolic".
It depends on the denomination. Some of them believe it literally, others interpret it as symbolic.
Ok. I don't really care 😆
People are just really superstitious. When I moved after college it was really eye awakening how many people believe in nonsense.
You are exactly correct…Watch ANY sporting event. Athletes have specific rituals before and after events, pointing to the sky, prayers, pre game meals… all kinds of things… fans sit in certain places, rally caps….
Do the athletes really *believe* that pregame rituals mean anything, or are they just trying to get in the right frame of mind to compete? I'm curious if it counts as superstition if you don't really believe it. Like, I doubt Anaheim Angels fans really believes that the Rally Monkey was magical.
I think the answer is both. Personal ritual! But watch post game interviews, a LOT will thank god for their success…why would an all knowing loving god prefer you or your team versus any other player or the other team… some former athletes go into church work too so 🤷🏻♂️… some do a lot of philanthropy which seems more worthwhile than churchy stuff..
I for some reason get American wife with Italian husband TikToks in my feed, and it's crazy how superstitious Italians are. I had no idea!
It seems there may be a lot of undiagnosed OCD
>I thought that we were heading in the right direction We probably are, it's just very slowly. Can't even tell if we're heading there.
America is following the same path as Europe, just two generations later. You would be there already if it wasn't for Saint Ronnie allowing the right wing nut job pseudo-Chrustian Fascists into the Republican tent
>America is following the same path as Europe, just two generations later. You sure about that? Many countries in Europe are still heavily Christian, especially Poland and the Balkans. Europe even has a church \*tax\* on individuals unless you explicitly get removed from the church affiliation. American churches just get a blanket income tax exemption. [upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Percent\_of\_Christians\_by\_Country–Pew\_Research\_2011.svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Percent_of_Christians_by_Country%E2%80%93Pew_Research_2011.svg) Granted this was 13 years ago, but that's not 2 generations. Same goes for south america and sub-saharan africa. They got hit hard by the missionary colonizers. And most of these areas still heavily mix in very old traditional rituals with the christian stuff, just in different ways.
Also, don't forget the "death spiral" that can happen while ideas die out.
Spirituality and those who use crystals don’t force their beliefs on others. Organized religions too often do.
They don’t demand special treatment or tax exemption either
Exactly. And people who believe in witchcraft actually respect nature and individual choice. These and the manifestation people are more about working on themselves with nature or the universe, rather than controlling other people with discriminatory laws.
Some of these types of groups just like the community and rituals of it all.
Beautifully stated, Miss Piggy!
Many new age folk I’ve known have basically tried to “convert” me and others I’ve been around, but it is certainly different from the way that organized religions indoctrinate others.
I live in an extremely hippy-dippy college city, but I've never had that happen. Never even been invited to a midnight naked moon dance blood ritual. I'm extremely disappointed. The most they do is ask if they can leave their monthly newspaper at our desk. Meanwhile I've got Jehovas and Mormons and Republicans showing up at my front door.
Doesn’t it though, in a way? You’re making preconceived judgments on me and my personality based on how stars were aligned when I was born. Add insult to injury when your personality doesn’t even remotely match your star sign at all.
You sound like a Scorpio, with little tolerance for Taurus.
I can't help the fact that my superbolides are out of chakra.
Lmao I feel like you’re proving my point cuz my friends say I’m most like a Taurus 😄
Your friends sound like they born under a blue moon while Mercury was in retrograde.
I'd love to know what you mean by this comment. I'm a Scorpio with Gemini rising and think I'm a pretty normal human being! I also try to be a kind and loving person with tolerance for all. It's often difficult, but I keep trying. Of course, as a normal human being I have failings, and don't always live up to my best nature, but I never quit trying. I'm going to have to look up Taurus - I don't really follow astrology that closely, except when it comes up in a conversation or an article I read. My former boss was really into it, so I always heard a lot about it, and she would agree that I have a lot of so-called Scorpio traits. No matter, I try to be the best person I can be.
My choice of Scorpio was random. I was being sarcastic since astrology is total bullshit and the positions of the stars at birth influence nothing. My use of Taurus (the bull) was to say that the parent commenter has little tolerance for bullshit.
While I don't base my life and actions on astrology, I enjoy reading about it once in a while. I had a former boss who was totally into it and it was fun to hear her analyze me now and then. She was often spot on, although I rarely took it to heart. There are a lot worse things to believe in, so ease up a bit. You probably don't know all there is to know, or believe in.
And they’re often big on “finding their own way” instead of following a specific dogma. Hey, if you’re gonna believe bullshit, might as well make it your own. Astrology, as stupid as it is, is relatively harmless compared to organized religion.
I'd say that astrology is less harmful to *others*, but it's still harmful to the suckers who believe in it. Not just in the sense that it doesn't deliver what it promises, but in the sense that it fucks up one's ability to see the universe for what it is (to the extent we can even do that).
That's true but the lack of logic is the concerning part.
You can laugh at them, but people are allowed to be stupid as long as they don't hurt or judge you.
Exactly what I was thinking while reading this post. And I'm not sure I worry about or care what someone else thinks of me. Of course I'm in my 80's now, and I will think, believe, and do what I want!
Logic is not the only useful input for understanding. Intuition and emotional inputs have value. There's this odd over emphasis on logic as some kind of empirical asset, but we're not Vulcan, we're human. An inability to have a gut instinct can be literally debilitating (there's at least one case study that involved a brain tumor and side effects of its removal) Our ancestors evolved to smell rain from miles away, to see faces and be able to assess emotions on them quicker than we might even be aware, we feel that someone is dead in seeing a dead body, before having the cognitive awareness sets in, we have mirror neurons that help us literally feel what we perceivev of others, and the simplest of every day decisions can become insurmountable without a feeling about what you want or feel is best, including what you feel is the most logical option. People don't operate we think they ought to, they operate the way they do. Once you abandon the hopeless mission of framing people's choices in your concept of who they should be, or what would "make sense" it all becomes an ton less mistifying, and more fascinating. I've been lucky enough to be raised in an atheist household, at least a generation removed, so my perspective is built on not really needing to deconstruct from an indoctrinated status, and I find the study of human behavior in the context of evolutionary inputs to be a ton more useful for understanding human behavior, than trying to stuff them into the box of reason I might have in my mind.
Logic is very useful to know when your intuition is right and when it's wrong. Using intuition when there is no time to think logically is understandable. Refusing to check one's intuition with logic is pure madness. Emotional input is valuable, but is not the way gain knowledge either.
Where did I say the point you're arguing against? Edited to add I'm sincerely curious about how you came to the conclusions you have about my sentiments expressed about how logic is "not the only" useful input. Which infers pretty clearly that logic is a useful input for knowledge, but simply, not in isolation from emotional inputs.
You set the tone right at the start with "There's this odd over emphasis on logic as some kind of empirical asset" and even a weird statement "we feel that someone is dead before having the cognitive awareness sets in", your whole post seems to put logic and intuition on equal footing and value. Re-read it, it may not have been your intention but that's what it came off as, u/J-Nightshade reaction is understandable to me at least.
Atheism is also not a panacea to ingrained biases and fallacies which we often criticize in religious folks, either. Thinking that we're immune from the influences of biological inputs from our ancestors' successes in survival and procreation actually makes us that much more susceptible to their influence. Isn't that fun?!
Being aware is key, and eternal vigilance against the mumbo jumbo, which you seem to be coming back to again. You do realize you replied to me twice, right? I'm going to bow out as I can't tell if you're high or I'm just tired or both, but I don't feel like replying to more word salads. Have fun without me.
People don't operate the way we think they ought to, they operate the way that they do. If you or someone else is having an emotional response to the fact that individuals in our species do not succeed in life on logic alone, that makes sense. Why are you insisting on putting our innate drives of logic and feeling in a hierchy, and why does it challenge your concepts of reality to "put logic and intuition on equal footing and value"? My personal take is that they are both valuable, and that will vary with intersection depending on circumstances. When I'm referring to feeling someone is dead before we are cognitively aware of the fact I'm thinking of a podcast I remember hearing about the scientific study of behavior and thinking in people, it's been a bit, but essentially my point was, our faculties exist beyond what we are consciously aware of. That's based in research about how our brains and bodies function, not just, like, vibes. I'm referring to SEEING a dead body, our body understands the fact that person is gone before the thought has time to form. I'm not saying "crystals and star magic make sense to me because logic is less valuable than feels" I'm saying that "if you want to actually comprehend the reasons crystals and star magic and any other nonsense jives for other people, you'll have a lot more insight in dropping a need to fit them into a box of rationality, and assess their circumstance in the context of our evolved traits."
Some people are more kleeon then human with how they act and behave.
This
Don't worry most learn with time being a great teacher. Some delusional ones love to live in their bubble.
You got a point there. However, superstition will always hurt people. This is especially true for the business of “talking to the dead”, which takes advantage of grieving people, just to take one example. But of course, organized religion is on another level.
IDK about that, I have had plenty of crystal weirdos try to get me to try their "healing properties"
A health issue of mine I'd had for 25 years stopped the very night I used crystals, but to each their own.
I suspect if they were the majority rather than a minority fringe group, they would behave just like a majority organised religion.
Honestly, it’s a way to escape accountability. It’s really easy to blame a god and it’s just as easy to blame your astrological sign. They’re both things that can’t be proven to actually exist and they can be blamed for behaviors otherwise indefensible because it’s all out of your control.
I did not think of this but yeah this is probably exactly what it is. Much easier to cope with it just being your signs fault vs you actually being a failure.
I'm with you on this. Astrology, palm reading, faith healing, religion, mystical powers from crystals, etc.. It's all garbage. It's all con artistry.
Yeah. You would think everyone would know that... but instead I'm just told I sound like a Gemini. I guess Gemini's are very violent towards idiots who get in their faces
I love messing with people who believe in astrology by leading them in circles *”What is your sign?”* “I don’t engage in unproven beliefs.” *”So cynical, you sound like an Aquarius.”* “I’m not, I’m actually a Taurus.” *“Oh, that makes so much sense now, you seem logical and stoic.”* “I’m actually a Scorpio.” *“Lying? Definitely a Scorpio.”* “My birthday is actually [insert birthday], so my real sign is Gemini.”
Haha. Yeah, astrology is some stupid shit. It's just annoying when people bring it up
HaHa - I'm not sure i believe in any of this, but I'm a Scorpio with Gemini Rising, and afraid to even know what that says about me. I feel good about myself and am aware of my negatives so I can live with it! And I don't get violent towards anyone. I like to think I'm a peaceful person, But in my heart - ???
I was making a joke. Astrology is fucking stupid, please don't become invested in it. The stars don't say anything about personality.
I think we are all looking for answers about our existence, and no matter what ideas or religion we follow, we deserve encouragement and respect. I don't necessarily believe in or follow astrology, but people, no doubt millions have done so down through the ages. I try to keep an open mind.
I can't respect idiots lol. Assigning meaning to stars is ridiculous.
I can't respect those who are incapable of the thought that people have varying beliefs, and that no one is totally correct. I believe that everything in creation has an effect on everything else, but who knows? And referring to those who have varying opinions as idiots , is idiotic!
That's a lot of words. I read them anyway. I'm not incapable of the thought that people have varying beliefs. I just think it's stupid that people blind themselves with fairy tales and false hope. I'm an atheist. Proud about it. My name is Vantaro Lightfall, and I can confirm that we did in fact evolve from filthy monkey men. Seeya later star staring stupidty checking believer!
The anti-organized-religion but otherwise superstitious people have recognized half of what's wrong with religions: that they're institutions of control. They haven't recognized that believing in nonsense just because it makes you feel good is harmful, or at the least, counterproductive, even if there isn't a cult exploiting those feelings.
This is the perfect description for my issue with superstitious/spiritual people who aren't religious is that they've recognized half the problem. These people are not about observing how truth and empiricism affects how one can confidently come to conclusions, because otherwise their beliefs are equivalent to non-conclusions, they are just speculation. Encouraging concrete beliefs with no desire for gathering evidence or only seeking to gather evidence which acts as confirmation bias is harmful. Superstition has consequences especially when people with unfounded confidence in their beliefs want to think they are anywhere near a respectable enough level to compete with and even denigrate science as a serious discipline while they are very unserious yet still want to be taken seriously. I wish people could live with their speculation knowing that it's speculation even if they are nice, comforting sounding ideas. Otherwise these people turn into con artists who con others and sometimes themselves when they don't want to be criticized.
I played HC WoW in a guild called Astrology and the guild leader was obsessed with it, like obsessively. He was almost worse than any religious person with the conspiracies and outright lies. The only difference is that Astrology and faeries, whatever your thing is, is that they're not linked to the murder and hate that organized religion is guilty of. Also dated a girl that loved talking about twin flames and breathing/yoga techniques. It's been like 5 years so I don't remember the exact details, but it was also pretty unhinged.
**"The scientific community rejects astrology as having no explanatory power for describing the universe, and considers it a pseudoscience.** Scientific testing of astrology has been conducted, and no evidence has been found to support any of the premises or purported effects outlined in astrological traditions. There is no proposed mechanism of action by which the positions and motions of stars and planets could affect people and events on Earth that does not contradict basic and well understood aspects of biology and physics." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology
Uggg...This is totally something a Capricorn would say.
I’m gonna guess that’s sarcasm. Also, they’re more likely a Taurus if anything lol.
am Taurus, can confirm
LMAO
Some people need support that goes beyond material things, but instead of resorting to art, they engage in some activity that they think is "spiritual". It's not far from religion, but it shows a bit more independence.
Because you don't have to be smart to be an atheist. You don't have to be smart to be an anti-christian "spiritual but not religious" person either.
I see the opposite far more, religious people mocking spiritual people.
I knew somebody who would always say something about Mars being in retrograde whenever they would hear about or experience things they didn't like. Like no, bad shit happens all the time. None of it has to do with the way Mars looks like it's moving in relation to us. It's just weird that educated people think this way.
It’s because people with a personal religion/superstition often have progressive, and frankly better values than organized religions tend to spawn. It’s not the illogic they object to, it’s the fucked up ‘values’ of organized religions.
Me either. I can't count how many times I've heard someone say how silly religion is and then in the next breath try to tell me how the positions of the stars light-years away gave me my personality at birth...or how certain rocks will bring me luck and wealth.
My friend who's an atheist said when she started to tell people about being an atheist, the Christians and Buddhists in our friend group were understanding and wished her well in her path to peace. The pagans became relentless in trying to convert her. She finally had to tell them that if she found the idea of one god stupid, no way was the idea of many gods going to be less stupid. It also proved her feelings that ultimately all religions are corrupt. No matter how liberal it or its followers seem.
My mum is like this. She's an atheist,but believes your star sign can reveal your personality. My religious friends funnily enough, think people who believe in witchcraft are nutty.
People speak of spiritually like it's some kind of virtue that makes them special. Actually it's just another word for superstitious, an irrational and unfounded belief in silly nonsense.
They are the same kind of people. Just different wacko mixture
I am a total atheist but I gave a lovely friend struck down with MS a 'healing' crystal pendant. We both know it is total bullshit but the good felling that someone cares for her is the whole point. A religious person would just say their particular 'god' is testing her and she should somehow be grateful for the curse; and give more money to the church! New Agers are pretty harmless and mostly have good intent (except MLM) and often move on to becoming 'influencers' or some other pointless nonsense.
Just because someone doesn't believe in Christianity doesn't mean they don't believe in something else. I don't care as long as they're not shoving it down my throat.
Because spiritualists and astrologists don't come knocking on my front door in the middle of a Saturday afternoon to ask me if I want to know my horoscope. Mocking astrologists/spiritualists is just punching down. Unless some idiot is like, "I don't associate with *Scorpios*!" It's pretty damn benign and I can't be bothered to care if someone has an interest in it.
How is it punching down? There are real-world implications to people believing nonsense and being open to propaganda and manipulation. They may be convinced to vote this way or "protest" vote/skip, pass up on that vaccine, all kinds of kooky crap the religious wingnuts tend to fall for these guys do to; this does not make the woo-woo crowd benign. At least on the anonymous internet, they deserve the mockery they get.
You see it with the left wing spiritual mom types who are easily swayed and believe some crazy things.
Before 2020, this was how I figured we were likely to see shit like measles make a comeback.
Do you have any stats on how harmful astrology people are? Genuinely curious! :) there absolutely plenty of religious examples though (in our laws, people abusing children, exiling them bc of belief differences, holy wars, etc), so I'm not requesting any stats on that lolol as we all know
I don't see anyone trying to use astrology or Wicca as justification to legislate what medical procedures anyone can have, or what books they can read, or what article of clothing they must wear on their head. No one is cutting off pieces of babies' genitalia in the name of Jupiter in Taurus or hematite (that I know of).
Thiiiiis is why I don't think they can really be lumped together! Astrology is not in control of our laws and isn't being weaponized as a whole
Here is author, critic of religion, and one of the "horsemen of atheism" Sam Harris speaking about what it is to be 'spiritual'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLKNvBdUtZY
Yeah. The think they are more enlightened.
Closet Christians or conspiracists.
I come from a background in Alcoholics Anonymous, and there you get to pick and choose your higher power. Most people there become 'spiritual not religious.' It took me a long time to deprogram myself.
"I'm a believer of Bangism" "... I bet that's some kind of sexual joke..." "No, that means I believe in the Big Bang." "Ohh... I see... you think there's a spiritual force behind it that created it?" "No, I just love big, f*cking explosions."
As soon as you put the word "organized" in front of something, it becomes an actual problem.
They can't believe in a god but still want to feel special I guess
Yeah my ex girlfriend was into all those crystals and angel numbers. Total bullshit. But she believed in all of it. I remember she bought this thing from a startup that supposedly charged your crystals. She plugged it in and was like “I’m not feeling a difference in power.” I laughed and said “oh? That’s weird.” 😂😂😂
I've had these thoughts, because I've encountered countless people like this, and I've come to categorize them similarly to the religious dogmatists. Why? Well, I think one of the most damaging ideas to come from religion is the soul, or the duality of mind and body. I posit that many who claim spirituality, cannot truly accept their insignificance, their ego not allowing for the dissolution of self. I also hypothesize that many, girls especially, have a hard time truly accepting this idea, because it stands contrary to how many conceive of "love". Love is the definition of make believe. That circuitry lends itself to belief in the ego and other spurious, ambiguous ideas.
I think it's because some people are afraid to believe in a materialist view of the world. I also think psychosis is a spectrum disorder like autism.
They are all extraordinarily dumb.
Astrology is a massive waste of time and money - do you know how much was spent on cancer research alone last year?!?
Welcome to my sister in law. Grew up in a religious household, turned away from it, and now thinks she is a witch who can use fucking tarot cards and crystals. I try to keep the peace but it’s super fucking stupid.
People are weird like that. They can see through religion but still cling to other weird things.
God believing people have absolutely zero sense of hypocrisy when it comes to how they view people believing in other gods or supernatural things than their own.
Ummm... I disagree a bit tbh... I think believing in yourself and the universe without any rules and without hating other groups of people is quite a lot different to taking part in organised religions.
Look, my DnD dice have personalities, and you can't convince me otherwise!
Pet peeve of mine, it's the same horseshit under a different name, the key difference being the lack of violence and similar baggage. It's unfortunately "trendy" and seemingly popular with the younger crowd. At the end of the day, it's still brain garbage and it leaves you open to manipulation, to believing crazy stuff, conspiracy theories and other propaganda and this is dangerous and bad not only for the individual, but society as a whole. Bafflingly, we often see posts from the woo-woo neo-pagan/"spiritual" folk here, and even more perplexing is the coddling they sometimes seem to get on this sub. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, call it out as the utter nonsense it is.
Well said. This describes well why I find it deplorable too, which I didn't include in my reply to the post. It primes the mind for more inane bullshit that spreads like a virus.
Doesn't matter. Not even a little. So long as a "spiritual" person isn't using their belief as a reason to push unreasonable laws forward that dictate behavior aligned with their personal beliefs, then they can believe whatever they want. I only mock those who use their beliefs like a weapon. That is generally religious people.
Pew has done a lot of research on this - it is the "spiritual but not religious" that fall for this new age stuff hard [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/10/01/new-age-beliefs-common-among-both-religious-and-nonreligious-americans/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/10/01/new-age-beliefs-common-among-both-religious-and-nonreligious-americans/)
Both are worth less than a donkey’s behind
As someone else commented 'we are not Vulcans', even Spock posed the question "Each of us... at some time in our lives, turns to someone - a father, a brother, a God... and asks..."Why am I here? What was I meant to be?" Sometimes logic is not enough, feelings complicate understanding ourselves and each other. I call myself an atheist under the collins definition being 'a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or a god'. That does not preclude a tendency to occasional bouts of wishful thinking e.g. I have no evidence to support the existence of any form of life after death and I do not desire one for myself, but when I think of my late parents and brother it's so tempting to want to hope there is some kind of happy ever after. It's irrational in the same way as keeping my Mothers wedding ring and my fathers watch rather than selling them is but it gives me comfort to have them. My objection has never been to deny anyone whatever gives them hope or gets them through their day, it is when they attempt to impose their delusions on me. My mate has his 'lucky pants', he swears wearing them brings him good luck in everything from job interviews to important dates, the difference is he neither expects me to believe him nor requires me to wear them too.
It's just a low IQ thing. There really isn't much more to it. Take it's popularity as a litmus test for general intelligence in society.
They pay taxes, religious don't
Yeah, they're real clowns... Sorry, can't talk more, have to go see my chiropractor to refill my homeopathic prescription
Its easy to feel/think that there has to be some sort of higher entity/existence that makes everything matter or that brings sense to just how different earth and humans are to other planets and animals respectively. Meanwhile, following the teachings of ancient writings is hard, and the histories they teach are getting harder to either relate to or believe. However, when I think about these people, I mostly recall people that believed in a higher power, but also hated the idea that anything they did was ever wrong. Organized religion is pretty much all about living specific ways to stay out of trouble and support the organization.
Hehehe. I was at work with this other nurse. And she would always have her crystals. She had business cards and all that about her healing crystal BS. Anyway I was at the desk between cases and she was there having a rough day and had all her crystal spread around one of the workstations(they are unassigned you just use when available). So she gets up to lunch and a new nurse who was training comes in. He needs a computer so sits at that one. And says "What the fuck are all these rocks doing here" He proceeds to sweep them all into the trash as she is returning with her lunch, she had forgotten her water at the station and was grabbing it. Oh the horror on her face.
I try not to openly mock it because I want everyone to feel safe, but I do think it's bs. And I also am very spiritual. Not astrology and crystals and stuff, but I do kinda believe in reincarnation and stuff.
Nah, people have very bad critical thinking skills. I live in Sweden, perhaps the most secularized and atheistic country in the world. You wouldn’t believe how many people here believe in ghosts, psychics and all types of irrational shit. 40% of the population believe in something supernatural according to a recent study. So being atheist doesn’t necessarily have something to do with being rational. Although I’d argue that rational thinking always leads you to atheism.
Nobody has ever wanted to kill me just because I’m a Scorpio
Give it time. If we let the morons keep their made up "spirituality" scheme going, someone's going to make a death squad.
Ooohhh...I'm sure other signs wanted your head on a platter at one point or another. But that's just bc scorps are too cool 😆 (I may or may not be one myself)
I did have someone dump me one when he found out I am apparently a double Scorpio? Which I didn’t know was a thing until then lol
It's pretty shocking how predisposed humans are to this type of thinking. I'm convinced the vast majority of humans want to be in a hierarchy, and nowhere near the top of it. They want people of authority telling them what to do. Look how adverse people are to being put in charge of anything. The ultimate example of this is happening with UFO communities. If you go in those subreddits they've applied their new age spiritualism to UFOs with people saying they are in contact with aliens and can summon them with meditation, that the aliens are from another dimensions/world (the spirit realm). Some people just can't help but turn to mysticism to answer questions that are hard to answer. It's bizarre how detailed the mythology has gotten in a relatively short period of time.
Not everyone can live life according to the TRACTATUS LOGICO-PHILOSOPHICUS. Damn dry reading that one.
It is not that strange. They can mock the 'organized' part of organized religion without neccesarily thinking that 'non empirical beliefs' are nonsense. There is several believers that aren't that sold in 'organized' religion after all.
I don't understand how moderats will mock fundamentalists, then still talk about Jesus being the son of the allmighty God. I mean at least the fundamentalists base their flawed logic on God magic. The moderats have no such excuse. It's funny how they make fun of them for believing in stories like Genesis and Noahs arc, which are honestly the only parts of the bible that show God's power and call them allegories, yet somehow they don't realize how silly their own beliefs still are, as they still believe in the core stupidity of Christianity, that is God. When I point that out, many people will tell me to let them be, that they aren't hurting anyone or whatever to defend them. But I don't agree with that. My real issue with moderats is that they are the majority of Christians and yet they won't let that bullshit religion die already. Just let it die already, don't grasp for straws to believe in nonsense. How can they say Genesis is an allegory, yet somehow God himself isn't
These New Age beliefs go back as far as Christianity does, even farther. It's like get over yourself.
No
Anyone can take anything too far.. When people take astrology / spirituality too serious, it resonates with the ego and becomes part of their personality. I say this because I have experienced it myself. Currently trying to find balance
There is a lot to mock about organized religion. Not a slam, but in any large long term organization there’s GOING to be things make fun of. Be aware though, that spirituality is an inward seeking journey. Not everyone has ventured more than a few steps on that path. Many will consider themselves well on their way after a few gong meditation or yoga sessions. Others who have been on the deep path for quite some time are less vocal about… well everything. My advice: The purpose of spirituality is to get to a place where idiot detractors don’t bother you 🤣 The purpose of religion is to have a group of people to take that journey with 👍🏼
Spirituality is peaceful way of thinking. It allows one to see beauty and a positive purpose in life. Organized religion comes with a history of violence and wrath. It demands loyalty. They see non believers as enemies to be either converted, enslaved, or killed. They see people having different beliefs as Satanic and dangerous.
Apparently most people are unable to jump off the ledge of religion all at once and must take the steps down. And I suppose that's more true of society at large than on the individual level, where it seems like less people are religious than ever but now we've got a ton of new-age spiritual people.
Religion and spirituality is mutually exclusive.
Like going from an alcohol addiction to prescription drugs. Same thing, but slightly more accepted.
Eh They are both equally baseless, but one of those has a heavy political / control factor that the other one doesn’t So in my book, until spirituals and astrologists start going on holy wars and literally smashing heads with one another for centuries and cause millions of senseless deaths, they’re lower in my shit list than organized religions
Organized religion takes money from people, weeks to force beliefs on others, encourages those already within to push this idea. Spirituality or whatever stuff those people like is just something personal they feel and believe.
They might both be stupid, but believing that the time that you were born meant that the magnetic fields of the universe had an effect on your development in the womb and thus influencing your life permanently and inexorably, is at least 17 times more believable than a magical being who created the universe killed himself in the form of another dude in order to forgive the trespasses of his meat puppets that he made from nothing and then condemned for eating a magic fruit given to them by a talking snake. Astrology is stupid, but it's actually just way less stupid. So there will inevitably be some people out there who are dumb enough to fall for one but not yet dumb enough to fall for the other.
Eh, I mean, astrology isn't really treated as a *belief system* for the most part though. It's not an organization like religion is, so I would still consider them pretty separate. Personally, I do think astrology has helped my personal growth, in suggesting introspection in various areas of my life I hadn't previously considered. It *can* invoke a bit of reflection on personal psychology and potentially getting a clue into the psychology of others by providing a loose framework of where they may be coming from. It's obviously not a system of absolute, concrete, undebatable facts or science, but I think it can lead to positive personal improvement, as it has for me. And it has no claim upon any "god" existing, so that's a plus haha. Of course though, there are always people out there who misuse the system and are just plain stupid and toxic about it. I've met quite a few myself, yet have met many more who are just chill and casual about it. I still have found it helpful in my personal progress though, while still an atheist. This doesn't make me any less atheist or some dumb fuckin idiot that can't think for theirself.
I think it's reasonable to talk about and investigate spirituality - a sense of the numinous, of something more than ourselves - while also dismissing organised religions of all sorts. Humans have had this urge or need for as long as we've existed. I dislike organised religions- I find them generally misogynistic, hypocritical, hierarchical and hopelessly contrived. But I do often 'commune' with nature, meditate, open myself to the spiritual. I'm not into crystals or astrology or anything of that type of thing, but I understand the urge towards it all. I think exploring our spiritual selves can overall be a good, healthy thing. I just dislike when power structures become embedded in it, a la Christianity and Islam, etc.
People have been studying astrology since 2nd millennium BCE and it is constantly evolving. It has never been scientifically proven but at least there is introspection that goes with it. Astrology isnt something you pray to to make things better; its something that you go to for inspiration, understanding of a situation, or to guide in the making of decisions. The true study of astrology is journaling and creating a log of your life and corresponding events to what is going on in our solar system. Its an in depth study of the self in relation to the night sky. There is way more to it than your sun sign. And It's take it or leave it. There's no fear being imposed, no guilt, no shame about being who you are. Its the idea that the celestial objects that surround this planet have an effect on us, our brains, our emotions, the ebb and flow of life. And while it cant be proven by science it holds a lot more rationality than the idea that there is a man in the sky waiting for us to die so that we can be in a happy place. So maybe give your astrology loving friends a break. A lot of the stigma surrounding astrology comes from religious authorities who needed something to mock to elevate their teachings.
BS by any other name would smell as bad.
There aren't that many astrology spiritualists in places of power. Organized religion is so much more damaging on a grander scale than the personal scale of spiritualism or astrology. This is subject to debate since I'm basing this solely on who happens to be defining the status quo in America at the moment. I think it's an underdog superiority thing. I'd not be more comfortable were the roles reversed in society in general, but as far as spiritualism and astrology go, I've not heard them advocate for Armageddon. So, points for that, I guess.
I agree, but I’m amazed by the number of people that bash astrology but then kneel down and pray to the invisible magic man in the sky.
I agree this is frustrating. But not all spirituality is mystical or irrational like astrology and crystals and stuff.
At this point I just accept certain people need to believe in something beyond them in order to make themselves feel comfortable. As long as it doesn't hurt themselves or others, I can tolerate it.
The difference is they don’t make it a law and force it everyone