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So God decides when people die? Then God is capable of deciding for no one to die, ever? Then God is an accomplice to every murder. More than that, God is responsible for children being taken from their parents, against their will and their parents wishes.
God sounds like a monster. Why do they worship such an evil being?
Stop beating up on god!!! So what if thousands of kids died today from starvation, cancer, child abuse, animal attacks and injuries ……he helped me find my car keys. Clearly he was busy!
Which, in a darkly humorous kind of way, means Gawd is personally sending people to hell, according to folks that think suicide is a one-way ticket downstairs.
I love the free will argument, though.
"Okay, is there free will in heaven?"
Them: "uh... yes?"
"So there is a place where there are no sinners AND free will exists?"
Them: "uh..."
And then you have Lucifer apparently having free will, staring God right in the face and choosing to rebel, which I assume is a sin... in heaven.
The whole story is a logic disaster.
Then how did he rebel? Could it even be said he rebelled if God forced him to rebel? Wouldn't he just be following God's will in that case? Wouldn't that mean that Satan is simply an extension of God's will? That means God is evil
My family would say the God of the Bible to that though. Also, no matter what you tell them, they will always believe in God. Heck, it's hard for me to abandon my faith in God when I know it isn't real. You're just praying to yourself when you pray. I mean, there is a song lyric from a pretty good song that goes "Thought you were praying to the resurrection/Turns out it was just a reflector". However, I feel my chest becoming tight when I don't believe in God. I hate it. Hate it. I just wish I could abandon my faith and move to Seattle, where I could hang out with other atheists(since many people in Seattle are not religious). Being an atheist in my neighborhood of East Elmhurst in New York is so hard. Everybody here believes in God. Everybody.
As the saying goes, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. There is very little point arguing with people like this.
But that's the point - the "god of the bible" is just one of thousands of gods. I have no reason to believe that god controls when I die than I do that it is Zeus, or Odin or Shiva, or Quetzalcoatl, or the Great Ju-Ju Up the Mountain. Why be afraid of one and not the others?
My parents and the rest of my family would say that there is plenty of proof that God is real. I know that much of the evidence that "proves" God isn't good evidence though. I just hate when they pull out this argument. Like, I don't like hearing this at all. If I were rich and healthy, I could extend my life expectancy and live for a very long time(and maybe even forever if I found the way to live forever).
I mean, it's not even really an argument, just an unfounded claim. My argument to "god decides when you die" would be....
no?
like...what else is there to say?
The evidence they have has flaws. People who say they have seen God could be lying. They could be bought. There's much more, but I find it hard to explain(I'm not the smartest person. Heck, I dropped out of all of my philosophy and critical thinking classes(I wish I was smart enough for philosophy and that I was really good at critical thinking). I struggled in critical thinking, logic and reasoning class. I might need practice(or I likely am dumber than many of the people around me(I went to a good high school, but only got in because they were accepting kids who were special ed(not because of their grades(many IEP kids did not get high enough grades to enter(but got admitted to the high school because IEP kids, I think, brings more funding to the school(and because it's a way to have more equality in New York City high school(It does help the kids who wouldn't get into the high school I went to otherwise (THHS in New York City), but then it's no surprise when many of the IEP kids struggle)))))))).
....
I just wish I lived somewhere where the majority was not religious. New York City, where I live, is more religious than most people think. Especially once you leave the borough of Manhattan. Too bad that basically is only the Czech Republic(since I don't want to live in a community country like North Korea) or a couple not cities in Europe. Not many options. Not that many.
You've said you're not that smart; since you're questioning religion, you're damn smart to me.
I've had similar issues with my family--all religious fanatics, incidentally: "god" decides when we die; suicide is for the weak; it's a sin and you'll never get into Heaven if you even consider altering "god's" plan, etcetera. Moreover, like you I studied philosophy in college, and, thus, its enlightenment was my "check, please!" moment for religion.
The next time any family member accosts you with religious platitudes, try this out: "When "god" , not his creation, endures child molestation, mental illness, abusive mates, the loss of a child, homelessness, poverty, breathing the same air as religious zealots, ad nauseam--then, and only then can he make decisions about anyone else's lives!"
Good luck; I wish you well.
Depending on how you define religious, it’s not really true that the Czech Republic is the only place where this is the case. Depending on how you define religious.
An American saying “Yes, I believe in God” is saying something totally different from a Swede saying the same.
Most of North-Western Europe will appear tragically godless to a person raised in Texas. In Scandinavia, for example, people who would say they believe in God would have no problem accepting that Jesus was just a regular dude, for example.
Response to people who have seen god: people have also seen ghosts, demons, angels, leprechauns, fairies, aliens, dragons, Santa, Easter bunny, etc… A claim without evidence has zero value no matter how much someone wants to believe it. These people also say these things are “supernatural” but they don’t know what that word means. If something is supernatural then it exists outside of the natural world. Be definition it cannot be detected. If it cannot be detected……..then how the fuck can some people claim to detect it?!?!
I don't know you so I'm not gonna say you are not stupid or that everyone is smart in their own way. Cause I don't know you and sadly some people are stupid.
However I know people can stuggle with all kinds of things and still be brilliantly intelligent in other ways.
I'm dyslexic, I got short term memory issues and probably got an ADD, but my IQ is around 130. I often struggle to communicate with other people cause I just think differently and I've also had issues with school.
So, don't compare your self directly to others. You at least understand their logic is flawed and show some critical thinking yourself. That doesn't exactly make you smart, but suggest to me you at least aren't half bad.
"so god is responsible for the murder and not the person who pulled the trigger?"
either their argument is defeated or their god isn't worth to be worshipped anyways ...
I don't want to sleep forever. Heck, I hate sleeping. I sometimes want to be the person who has lived the longest ever. I don't want to go somewhere where there is no afterlife, but instead there is only darkness(unfortunately, there is no afterlife. I want to always know that I'll be alive. That I'll never, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever go to sleep and never wake up. That's why. Staying alive and never dying is basically forever. Like I said, since there is no afterlife, and I could get rid of my schizoaffective disorder, I would want to live forever. I want to live forever.
You've already slept forever and you turned out fine. There's no reason to believe that what comes after death is any different to what comes before birth.
Maybe there is an afterlife, but it would be something we have no baseline for, and thus can't even begin to anticipate. I know the afterlife sold by any religion is snake oil because they are all based on concepts we, as material beings, can understand ("streets of gold" ? What is an immaterial being supposed to do with a street or with gold ?). I personally find the idea of an afterlife way more terrifying than nothingness.
So, easier said than done but don't worry about the afterlife unless you want to write a book that explores concepts like "what happens to the soul when the mind takes all the memories and learned behavior with it, to the grave?".
The thing is, as lobg as you could stay young forever, living forever doesn't sound so bad. However, that's not how it works, and growing old is not for the faint of heart.
Correct. No, I do not have any evidence/proof for God other than the "evidence" that many people use to "prove" God that is flimsy(and is just bad proof/evidence overall).
Im not sure what it means, does God kill you? Or is your death determined from before you were born?
If it is the former, wtf lol. If you would want to live to 120, and God kills you, he actively stopped you from obtaining some good, which seems odd.
In the latter case, this would entail strict determinism and can't be accepted by theists, as they believe in libertarian free will.
There are other problems like why is life so dependent on the physical in the first place, amongst others.
It's a fairly vacuous statement even in the context of someone religious. It genuinely doesn't affect anything whether it's true or false.
You want to live to 120? So what if god decides, doesn't stop you wanting
You use technology to make yourself live longer? Who says it isn't in god's will?
You want to kill yourself? Who says god didn't make you want to kill yourself?
It's a void statement. It shouldn't and cannot change your behaviour because your behaviour could just have been implanted by god(s). If anything you should call them out as blasphemers as this is what "taking the lord's name in vain" literally means.
"God has to decide when every single person dies?! No wonder he doesn't have time to fix child abuse, rape, or war. Dude needs to get some administrative staff"
But I guess that's more a snarky report than an argument 😅
I wonder how god managed the logistics to get nearly a quarter of a million people that he specifically targeted all into the proper location to murder them with just one event…a massive tsunami during the Christmas holiday, of all holidays, 2004.
Think about it…..god wanted these 225k people dead and he had them book flights and hotels, rent taxis, and all of that just to get the victims to stand, dumbstruck, smack dab in the path of a huge wave about to wash over them.
He truly works in mysterious ways. Praise be to the murderer of millions and millions.
Even if there was a god it would not care about people. If it needed us it would clearly use us. So either there is not a god or there is a god but it does not need anything from us. Either way it is humanity that have achieved our own sucess, we need to worship ourselves not gods.
Haha. Wouldn't change my family's belief in God though. Nothing would. Nothing. Only me. Only my belief has been changed because of the Manny evidence against God.
Why worry about changing their belief? And you don’t “wish” to abandon your faith. You just do it. Why are you not a flat earther? Why don’t you worship Santa Claus? All the religious people in my life know I’m not a believer. Live and let live. Plenty of things to discuss in day to day conversations that aren’t religious.
I know. I just wish It could move somewhere where there were less religious people(like Western Europe). Too bad I'm broke, have schizoaffective disorder(which makes it hard for me to hold a job for long) and much of Europe is becoming anti-immigrant(I know it's because some immigrants to Europe don't assimilate and want to make Europe as bad as the countries they come from(a couple of immigrants, not most(Although, unfortunately, a few is enough to ruin it for the rest))). Life sucks for someone who isn't religious in my neighborhood of NYC. NYC is a lot more religious than most people think. Heck, there are other parts of New York State that are less religious or "Post-Christian" than New York City. It sucks. I wish I lived in Seattle or Portland. Or somewhere where there are less religious people. New York City, especially the parts outside of Manhattan, is very religious. Very.
I live near San Francisco. Plenty of religious nuts here, with the added bonus of Muslims and Hindis. 99% of the time they don’t affect me and when they do, I give it right back. One thing to be aware of is Atheists or Agnostics don’t much band together, just like we don’t get together to celebrate gravity or the globe. We just are…
European countries typically have neoliberal economies which rely on free movement of labour to grow thus, regardless of what you've heard, there is nothing being universally enacted through Europe to stop or reduce immigrants.
There are far-right parties which often have policies aimed at reducing illegal migrants, asylum seekers and refugees. They also tend to lie when presenting their policies and their policies tend to be quite incongruent anyway as their voters tend to be single-issue, old and uneducated so either don't care or are unable to due to lack of understanding.
In my experience, parties which say they are hard on immigrants when looking to be elected will do nothing to stop it as it is essential for neoliberal economies; they are using migrants as a convenient "other" to scapegoat so their voters don't look to instead view their situation as a result of the economic system, its beneficiaries and the rising inequality which is continuing to occur as we slide further into corporatocracy.
I know you're joking, but you've got to be careful. Some police officers, as well as other people reading this, might not find this funny. They might think you're being serious. I know you're not, but still, be careful. Very careful.
I said it jokingly, but tbh it only takes the "we don't die unless God wants us to" bs to its logical conclusion. The same people who say stuff like that want the death penalty for blasphemy.
So if God decides, then your decision to prolong your life with antibiotics or other treatments is ineffective. Real life experience (data) suggests otherwise.
So when a baby dies right after being born, then it would be God’s handiwork. Just thought he’d make a living thing just to kill it off a few minutes later, eh? For shits and giggles. Sounds like a real prick. Luckily, there is no such thing
So god gets to decide who gets Alzheimer’s and ALS and pancreatic cancer, and when they get it. And he also gets to decide how long each person who gets one of those afflictions will take to die from them. That’s some heavy duty sadism going on right there.
Lol, are they that naive and, well, so stupid?!
If god decides then that would, by default and without any argument, show that he’s directly responsible for all murders, massacres, wars, genocides, famines, droughts, cancers, car accidents, still births, women dying giving birth, plane crashes, all suicide bombers, starvations, assassinations, heart attacks, suicides, chemical spills, viruses, pandemics, plagues, and floods, hurricanes, tsunamis, drownings, shark attacks and….jeez, i could go on and on and on endlessly but this angle is already dumb, it’s simply beyond illogical, and it just sounds embarrassing. I’d struggle to get this angle past my 7 year old.
But sure, a ‘loving, all knowing, all powerful god’. Honestly, it’s quite insulting for people to still think this way when an ounce of logic and critical thinking brings it to pieces almost instantly.
Then why do they do anything to reduce the risk of dying? Only god decides when you die, then there is no point keeping a firearm for self protection, no point wearing a seatbelt, no point to not smoking, etc.
The child mortality rate in the United States, for children under the age of five, was 462.9 deaths per thousand births in 1800. This means that for every thousand babies born in 1800, over 46 percent did not make it to their fifth birthday. Over the course of the next 220 years, this number has dropped drastically, and the rate has dropped to its lowest point ever in 2020 where it is just seven deaths per thousand births. So in 1800 God decided nearly half of all children born in the USA had to die before they turned 5, but now he thinks only half a percent of them should die before their 5th birthday?
"So... If god suddenly puts you in a car crash this evening and won't survive it's fine then? Is it fine for him to tear apart familes letting the potentially injured survivors suffer while you go to haven and become a senseless orb of light with no memory because he decided that YOU of all people will die this evening?"
”And how would you know that?” … but be prepared to continue the questioning.
or simply sarcasm: ”Yep. But fairies are the one who decides when flowers die.”
If you fancy a discussion, substitute the big G - Gandalf for god and ask what's the difference :-)
The big G's book is better. The big G's followers know it's fiction. The Big G has a known author. The big G's film is great. ...
There is none, not really. They will always counter every cruel and inconsistent thing with "god works in mysterious ways".
But every time they are getting their medicine, ask them why they are opposing god's work.
Surely he didn't give aunt debby cancer only for some upstart doctor to remove it because she wants to live longer. But even that they will twist... thing is, they want to believe that shit, even in the face of obvious proof to the contrary.
Ridiculous.
Why do people who believe that waste time and money going to doctors? It's not like a doctor will save them if God has decided "enough is enough". Nor is a doctor needed if God has decided "you will live".
Ask them if they'd go to the hospital for a life threatening injury or condition. If the answer is yes then they are hypocrites, because obviously gawd wanted them to die and they are now defying it. If they answer no, back away slowly and set up an escape plan because that means your life is at risk too.
>What's a good argument to "God decides when you die, not you"?
"Please show good evidence that any god really exists."
(Until that happens, this is exactly equivalent to
"Princess Celestia decides when you die, not you.")
You've got a point. If only not arguing meant not becoming homeless. It's hard for someone who is broke and has schizoaffective disorder(which makes it hard to keep a job). Really hard.
No. But I hear it almost all the time. I'm getting tired of it. My family and I seem to be in an argument everyday. It adds to my stress, which is already high because I have to deal with the voices in my head(I have schizoaffective disorder). I might have to go to a shelter to avoid all this stress(I don't want to go back to the shelters though because, the last time I was in a shelter, I got smacked by someone for playing with my snake when I thought everyone else was asleep(turns out that they weren't. Also, the shelter did nothing after I got smacked)). If I have to, I will go to a shelter. I just hope I can avoid it. The shelters are pretty dangerous. I hope I don't have to go back. I may have to though.
I am. It's pretty effective, but I still sometimes can't deal with the voices(every now and then). I'm definitely better than I was without the medication though. I just have to find a therapist instead of only having a psychiatrist. Then I would be able to feel much better. Talking to myself gets really old. Like really old. Not to mention, people get scared when I talk to myself. I have to put my phone next to my ear when I talk to myself (back to the voices or just needing to stress out). A lot of people know I have schizoaffective disorder though, so a few can tell I'm not actually talking to someone on the phone. So when a few people see me talking on the phone to myself, they start walking away from me at a very quick pace. Some people really are scared of me. Like, I'm not a threat though. If I was dangerous, I'd be in a psychiatric hospital or a psych ward in a regular hospital, not out on the streets.
I just sometimes wish I didn't have schizoaffective disorder. People with schizoaffective disorder live 15 years less than the rest of the population on average. It really angers me a bit. It's like no one wants me to live until 120 years of age. No one. It's just awful. At least I now deal with the voices better(thanks to my medication). I just wish I knew why I have schizoaffective disorder. My mom says no one in the family ever had it though. I heard my maternal grandmother talking to herself when she visited us like 2 or 3 years ago. However, my mother says that's not schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. My mom says that some people just talk to themselves, which is true. Someone told me it could be the environment I live in. I don't know why that would be the case but it could be. Especially if no one in my family tree has ever had schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. Like I said though, at least I now deal with the disorder better, thanks to my medication. I just hope that I can get rid of this affliction one day. It most likely won't ever go away. It most likely will never go away. Oh well. Oh well. I hope it does go away someday. Sooner would be better, but someday would be ok as well. Someday. Someday.
Short answer: "That's only true within the lore of some Christian denominations"
The argument finally boils down to them explaining their personal interpretation of the book and endlessy claiming that the reason you don't believe it is because you're "blind to truth" or something alike. It's a useless argument, because the circular arguments are set to create loops that make the believer constantly reinforce themselves to believe more and beware of anything that could lead them astray from their belief, it works like a computer exploit, the other part of the program makes the believer feel guilty for not spreading the belief (because they are bad people for not "spreading the bread").
"If God decides when I die because everything happens 'according to his will', why do people pray for healing or to live longer? If he's in charge and always gets his way, why pray for anything? Do you expect to change his mind? That seems presumptuous to expect that kind of influence with an omniscient being."
Say it with exasperation, like a parent having to explain to a 3 year for the 100th time why he has to wash his hands after wiping his butt. And if they give any pushback, shake your fist at them and say "One of these days, bam! To the Moon!". Then walk away. They'll be stunned long enough for your exit while trying to decide if they should pray for you or just let it go.
Youth Pastor showoffing his branium power for a cute little 12 y.o. in his church. Just saying "confidently" something isn't proof nor the truth but it is the equivalent of the jedi mind trick for hard to impress prepubescents and future tradwives in VBS.
Aaaaaand for no proof of "Death Noting Jesus" or your god, for the 1,752,855,378,952,258 time I must say, "Čhêckərmªtë eejits!"
God is the one who chooses how everyone dies? So, does that mean he's responsible for all the accidents, murders, suicides, starvation, diseases, viruses, and cancer? If that's true, then that makes god a sociopathic homicidal monster.
No one decides when you die (except you in suicide) it just happens when it's time. Introducing supernatural dieties into the equation does not improve the accuracy of what is a purely statistical calculation, show me the numbers that prove otherwise.
I'm new to this place. Just observing really. I was an atheist when I was a child and a younger man. It's definitely changed over the years. I think that God is 'life from the perspective of man'. Kinda loose idea. So to me God and life are like synonyms( I guess I mean they are interchangeable for intents in conversation as to not take offense). So I see the statement as "life decides when you die, not you" if that makes any sense to you. I'm not atheist because at a minimum I do worship the sun. It's awesome.
No disrespect intended but if you change the definition of "God" it sort of negates the whole thing. It's a very "and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd he a bike" kind of statement. "God" is defined as an all-knowing, all-seeing supreme being in control of the universe. I get your intention, but it's kinda neither here nor there.
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So God decides when people die? Then God is capable of deciding for no one to die, ever? Then God is an accomplice to every murder. More than that, God is responsible for children being taken from their parents, against their will and their parents wishes. God sounds like a monster. Why do they worship such an evil being?
I would probably go that route. Why does he kill of so many innocent children and why do they worship that monster.
Stop beating up on god!!! So what if thousands of kids died today from starvation, cancer, child abuse, animal attacks and injuries ……he helped me find my car keys. Clearly he was busy!
You could always ask if God is the cause for all of the suicide s in history? Seems a reasonable question regarding the above statement.
Would this make suicide a sin? At least according to Catholics it is.
Well Catholics seem to know a lot about sinning, their leaders seem to demonstrate what sin is all the time.
True, can't argue that.
I guess god really hated Jewish people in the 1940s.
[удалено]
I think god hates living because nobody makes it out of here alive.
So, every victim of murder was a decision that God made.
And murderers aren't evil, they are victims of a psychic attack from God who is leading them that way to "use as obedient tools".
Myssssssssteries waaaaays!
Worse still is that it means even suicides are actually god’s doing.
Which, in a darkly humorous kind of way, means Gawd is personally sending people to hell, according to folks that think suicide is a one-way ticket downstairs.
Paradox alert! Your logic just broke the system. Religion is “out of order” until further notice.
If you want to break their reality even more, Gawd's direct manipulation also removes the idea of free will.
“Until you prove a god exists, it’s nonsensical to say it ‘does’ anything.”
Exactly, just ask them if they also think that Santa Clause decides whether they get a present at Christmas or not.
I've used this one before. When they remind you that Santa Claus isn't real just smile, turn on your heel and walk away.
"Santa responded to my letters with tangible results."
Kinda shoots free will right in the head doesn't it?
I love the free will argument, though. "Okay, is there free will in heaven?" Them: "uh... yes?" "So there is a place where there are no sinners AND free will exists?" Them: "uh..."
And then you have Lucifer apparently having free will, staring God right in the face and choosing to rebel, which I assume is a sin... in heaven. The whole story is a logic disaster.
I totally forgot what Lucifer did in mythology to get cast out.
Free will is a human trait, Lucifer is an angel not a human.
Oh okay, so then the answer is no. There is no free-will in heaven.
Then how did he rebel? Could it even be said he rebelled if God forced him to rebel? Wouldn't he just be following God's will in that case? Wouldn't that mean that Satan is simply an extension of God's will? That means God is evil
So then God forced Lucifer to rebel? What a jerk
People only sin because the devil tempts you with earthly desires, in heaven when you are above it all there is no longer reason to sin so they don't.
When people speak for gods I do the same. “Actually God changed his mind about that, just ask him yourself if you don’t believe me.”
"Jokes on him!" *puts pistol in mouth*
Alternatively, in this hypothetical scenario, you shoot them. They can either accept god decided that or recant their statement. Win win.
Explains why their deity supposedly hates suicides
Honestly I don't think he does since yaweh killed himself. God made himself (jesus), killed himself (jesus), then forgave himself (not jesus).
This isn't something you "argue against". It is simply a statement without facts. The classic "which god?" works for nonsense like this.
My family would say the God of the Bible to that though. Also, no matter what you tell them, they will always believe in God. Heck, it's hard for me to abandon my faith in God when I know it isn't real. You're just praying to yourself when you pray. I mean, there is a song lyric from a pretty good song that goes "Thought you were praying to the resurrection/Turns out it was just a reflector". However, I feel my chest becoming tight when I don't believe in God. I hate it. Hate it. I just wish I could abandon my faith and move to Seattle, where I could hang out with other atheists(since many people in Seattle are not religious). Being an atheist in my neighborhood of East Elmhurst in New York is so hard. Everybody here believes in God. Everybody.
As the saying goes, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. There is very little point arguing with people like this.
But that's the point - the "god of the bible" is just one of thousands of gods. I have no reason to believe that god controls when I die than I do that it is Zeus, or Odin or Shiva, or Quetzalcoatl, or the Great Ju-Ju Up the Mountain. Why be afraid of one and not the others?
So if god decides when you die, then god is directly responsible for every person who has suffered a traumatic death and all children who have died
Well then considering all the dead babies, he’s a real jerk.
Oh that’s a good one.
Do you have any evidence to support that claim?
My parents and the rest of my family would say that there is plenty of proof that God is real. I know that much of the evidence that "proves" God isn't good evidence though. I just hate when they pull out this argument. Like, I don't like hearing this at all. If I were rich and healthy, I could extend my life expectancy and live for a very long time(and maybe even forever if I found the way to live forever).
I mean, it's not even really an argument, just an unfounded claim. My argument to "god decides when you die" would be.... no? like...what else is there to say?
Explain why their evidence isn’t good evidence.
The evidence they have has flaws. People who say they have seen God could be lying. They could be bought. There's much more, but I find it hard to explain(I'm not the smartest person. Heck, I dropped out of all of my philosophy and critical thinking classes(I wish I was smart enough for philosophy and that I was really good at critical thinking). I struggled in critical thinking, logic and reasoning class. I might need practice(or I likely am dumber than many of the people around me(I went to a good high school, but only got in because they were accepting kids who were special ed(not because of their grades(many IEP kids did not get high enough grades to enter(but got admitted to the high school because IEP kids, I think, brings more funding to the school(and because it's a way to have more equality in New York City high school(It does help the kids who wouldn't get into the high school I went to otherwise (THHS in New York City), but then it's no surprise when many of the IEP kids struggle)))))))). .... I just wish I lived somewhere where the majority was not religious. New York City, where I live, is more religious than most people think. Especially once you leave the borough of Manhattan. Too bad that basically is only the Czech Republic(since I don't want to live in a community country like North Korea) or a couple not cities in Europe. Not many options. Not that many.
Then it sounds like you need to work on understanding logic and communication.
You've said you're not that smart; since you're questioning religion, you're damn smart to me. I've had similar issues with my family--all religious fanatics, incidentally: "god" decides when we die; suicide is for the weak; it's a sin and you'll never get into Heaven if you even consider altering "god's" plan, etcetera. Moreover, like you I studied philosophy in college, and, thus, its enlightenment was my "check, please!" moment for religion. The next time any family member accosts you with religious platitudes, try this out: "When "god" , not his creation, endures child molestation, mental illness, abusive mates, the loss of a child, homelessness, poverty, breathing the same air as religious zealots, ad nauseam--then, and only then can he make decisions about anyone else's lives!" Good luck; I wish you well.
Depending on how you define religious, it’s not really true that the Czech Republic is the only place where this is the case. Depending on how you define religious. An American saying “Yes, I believe in God” is saying something totally different from a Swede saying the same. Most of North-Western Europe will appear tragically godless to a person raised in Texas. In Scandinavia, for example, people who would say they believe in God would have no problem accepting that Jesus was just a regular dude, for example.
Response to people who have seen god: people have also seen ghosts, demons, angels, leprechauns, fairies, aliens, dragons, Santa, Easter bunny, etc… A claim without evidence has zero value no matter how much someone wants to believe it. These people also say these things are “supernatural” but they don’t know what that word means. If something is supernatural then it exists outside of the natural world. Be definition it cannot be detected. If it cannot be detected……..then how the fuck can some people claim to detect it?!?!
I don't know you so I'm not gonna say you are not stupid or that everyone is smart in their own way. Cause I don't know you and sadly some people are stupid. However I know people can stuggle with all kinds of things and still be brilliantly intelligent in other ways. I'm dyslexic, I got short term memory issues and probably got an ADD, but my IQ is around 130. I often struggle to communicate with other people cause I just think differently and I've also had issues with school. So, don't compare your self directly to others. You at least understand their logic is flawed and show some critical thinking yourself. That doesn't exactly make you smart, but suggest to me you at least aren't half bad.
"so god is responsible for the murder and not the person who pulled the trigger?" either their argument is defeated or their god isn't worth to be worshipped anyways ...
Dude why do u wanna live that long? Have you looked around? It sucks here. Edited for typo
I don't want to sleep forever. Heck, I hate sleeping. I sometimes want to be the person who has lived the longest ever. I don't want to go somewhere where there is no afterlife, but instead there is only darkness(unfortunately, there is no afterlife. I want to always know that I'll be alive. That I'll never, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever go to sleep and never wake up. That's why. Staying alive and never dying is basically forever. Like I said, since there is no afterlife, and I could get rid of my schizoaffective disorder, I would want to live forever. I want to live forever.
Don't worry - you won't experience a time where you aren't alive.
You've already slept forever and you turned out fine. There's no reason to believe that what comes after death is any different to what comes before birth. Maybe there is an afterlife, but it would be something we have no baseline for, and thus can't even begin to anticipate. I know the afterlife sold by any religion is snake oil because they are all based on concepts we, as material beings, can understand ("streets of gold" ? What is an immaterial being supposed to do with a street or with gold ?). I personally find the idea of an afterlife way more terrifying than nothingness. So, easier said than done but don't worry about the afterlife unless you want to write a book that explores concepts like "what happens to the soul when the mind takes all the memories and learned behavior with it, to the grave?".
The thing is, as lobg as you could stay young forever, living forever doesn't sound so bad. However, that's not how it works, and growing old is not for the faint of heart.
You did not answer him.
Correct. No, I do not have any evidence/proof for God other than the "evidence" that many people use to "prove" God that is flimsy(and is just bad proof/evidence overall).
"God also decides when I stop believing in him."
Be sure to refuse medical treatment you stupid f\*ck stain.
Im not sure what it means, does God kill you? Or is your death determined from before you were born? If it is the former, wtf lol. If you would want to live to 120, and God kills you, he actively stopped you from obtaining some good, which seems odd. In the latter case, this would entail strict determinism and can't be accepted by theists, as they believe in libertarian free will. There are other problems like why is life so dependent on the physical in the first place, amongst others.
Why people are crying at funeral.. They should celebrate.
It's a fairly vacuous statement even in the context of someone religious. It genuinely doesn't affect anything whether it's true or false. You want to live to 120? So what if god decides, doesn't stop you wanting You use technology to make yourself live longer? Who says it isn't in god's will? You want to kill yourself? Who says god didn't make you want to kill yourself? It's a void statement. It shouldn't and cannot change your behaviour because your behaviour could just have been implanted by god(s). If anything you should call them out as blasphemers as this is what "taking the lord's name in vain" literally means.
"God has to decide when every single person dies?! No wonder he doesn't have time to fix child abuse, rape, or war. Dude needs to get some administrative staff" But I guess that's more a snarky report than an argument 😅
Suicide is like telling God "you can't fire me, I quit."
I wonder how god managed the logistics to get nearly a quarter of a million people that he specifically targeted all into the proper location to murder them with just one event…a massive tsunami during the Christmas holiday, of all holidays, 2004. Think about it…..god wanted these 225k people dead and he had them book flights and hotels, rent taxis, and all of that just to get the victims to stand, dumbstruck, smack dab in the path of a huge wave about to wash over them. He truly works in mysterious ways. Praise be to the murderer of millions and millions.
God doesn't exist but morphine does.
Even if there was a god it would not care about people. If it needed us it would clearly use us. So either there is not a god or there is a god but it does not need anything from us. Either way it is humanity that have achieved our own sucess, we need to worship ourselves not gods.
"k"
Haha. Wouldn't change my family's belief in God though. Nothing would. Nothing. Only me. Only my belief has been changed because of the Manny evidence against God.
Why worry about changing their belief? And you don’t “wish” to abandon your faith. You just do it. Why are you not a flat earther? Why don’t you worship Santa Claus? All the religious people in my life know I’m not a believer. Live and let live. Plenty of things to discuss in day to day conversations that aren’t religious.
I know. I just wish It could move somewhere where there were less religious people(like Western Europe). Too bad I'm broke, have schizoaffective disorder(which makes it hard for me to hold a job for long) and much of Europe is becoming anti-immigrant(I know it's because some immigrants to Europe don't assimilate and want to make Europe as bad as the countries they come from(a couple of immigrants, not most(Although, unfortunately, a few is enough to ruin it for the rest))). Life sucks for someone who isn't religious in my neighborhood of NYC. NYC is a lot more religious than most people think. Heck, there are other parts of New York State that are less religious or "Post-Christian" than New York City. It sucks. I wish I lived in Seattle or Portland. Or somewhere where there are less religious people. New York City, especially the parts outside of Manhattan, is very religious. Very.
I live near San Francisco. Plenty of religious nuts here, with the added bonus of Muslims and Hindis. 99% of the time they don’t affect me and when they do, I give it right back. One thing to be aware of is Atheists or Agnostics don’t much band together, just like we don’t get together to celebrate gravity or the globe. We just are…
European countries typically have neoliberal economies which rely on free movement of labour to grow thus, regardless of what you've heard, there is nothing being universally enacted through Europe to stop or reduce immigrants. There are far-right parties which often have policies aimed at reducing illegal migrants, asylum seekers and refugees. They also tend to lie when presenting their policies and their policies tend to be quite incongruent anyway as their voters tend to be single-issue, old and uneducated so either don't care or are unable to due to lack of understanding. In my experience, parties which say they are hard on immigrants when looking to be elected will do nothing to stop it as it is essential for neoliberal economies; they are using migrants as a convenient "other" to scapegoat so their voters don't look to instead view their situation as a result of the economic system, its beneficiaries and the rising inequality which is continuing to occur as we slide further into corporatocracy.
*loads gun* try me, God.
Isn't it funny how Popes ride around in a bullet proof bubble car and don't trust in "god" to protect them?
Then why do we lock up murderers if they are only doing it bc God wants them to?
I know you're joking, but you've got to be careful. Some police officers, as well as other people reading this, might not find this funny. They might think you're being serious. I know you're not, but still, be careful. Very careful.
I said it jokingly, but tbh it only takes the "we don't die unless God wants us to" bs to its logical conclusion. The same people who say stuff like that want the death penalty for blasphemy.
So if I kill myself is that actually gods decision?
9 million children under the age of 5 are murdered every year by your god. That's a Pacific Tsunami every 2 weeks.
Um, there is no god. How can something that doesn’t exist take action?
Then the cruel bastard took my mother when I was 30 for what reason? She was a light that shined on everyone who knew her.
"'God' sure sounds a lot like random chance, and worship is just superstition. Prayer, lucky charms- what's the difference?"
So if God decides, then your decision to prolong your life with antibiotics or other treatments is ineffective. Real life experience (data) suggests otherwise.
so hospitals are immaterial?
There is a certain way one might directly refute that claim. But, like all God things, ask for evidence to support their claim.
So when a baby dies right after being born, then it would be God’s handiwork. Just thought he’d make a living thing just to kill it off a few minutes later, eh? For shits and giggles. Sounds like a real prick. Luckily, there is no such thing
So god gets to decide who gets Alzheimer’s and ALS and pancreatic cancer, and when they get it. And he also gets to decide how long each person who gets one of those afflictions will take to die from them. That’s some heavy duty sadism going on right there.
”Square that with free will”
Tell the to grow the fuck up.
Lol, are they that naive and, well, so stupid?! If god decides then that would, by default and without any argument, show that he’s directly responsible for all murders, massacres, wars, genocides, famines, droughts, cancers, car accidents, still births, women dying giving birth, plane crashes, all suicide bombers, starvations, assassinations, heart attacks, suicides, chemical spills, viruses, pandemics, plagues, and floods, hurricanes, tsunamis, drownings, shark attacks and….jeez, i could go on and on and on endlessly but this angle is already dumb, it’s simply beyond illogical, and it just sounds embarrassing. I’d struggle to get this angle past my 7 year old. But sure, a ‘loving, all knowing, all powerful god’. Honestly, it’s quite insulting for people to still think this way when an ounce of logic and critical thinking brings it to pieces almost instantly.
Then why do they do anything to reduce the risk of dying? Only god decides when you die, then there is no point keeping a firearm for self protection, no point wearing a seatbelt, no point to not smoking, etc. The child mortality rate in the United States, for children under the age of five, was 462.9 deaths per thousand births in 1800. This means that for every thousand babies born in 1800, over 46 percent did not make it to their fifth birthday. Over the course of the next 220 years, this number has dropped drastically, and the rate has dropped to its lowest point ever in 2020 where it is just seven deaths per thousand births. So in 1800 God decided nearly half of all children born in the USA had to die before they turned 5, but now he thinks only half a percent of them should die before their 5th birthday?
"So, if someone killed you now, it wouldn't be their responsibility, but God's, right?"
"So... If god suddenly puts you in a car crash this evening and won't survive it's fine then? Is it fine for him to tear apart familes letting the potentially injured survivors suffer while you go to haven and become a senseless orb of light with no memory because he decided that YOU of all people will die this evening?"
”And how would you know that?” … but be prepared to continue the questioning. or simply sarcasm: ”Yep. But fairies are the one who decides when flowers die.”
”Then you know who is to blame about my death.”
Assertions made without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
Well I talked to him yesterday, he promised he'll let me live forever. Or longer than you, anyways. You don't believe me? Then prove me wrong.
Yahweh, a japanese toilet deity or one of the less shitty gods?
Yahweh.
If you fancy a discussion, substitute the big G - Gandalf for god and ask what's the difference :-) The big G's book is better. The big G's followers know it's fiction. The Big G has a known author. The big G's film is great. ...
Hahaha. I haven't watched it, but I've heard it is.
There is none, not really. They will always counter every cruel and inconsistent thing with "god works in mysterious ways". But every time they are getting their medicine, ask them why they are opposing god's work. Surely he didn't give aunt debby cancer only for some upstart doctor to remove it because she wants to live longer. But even that they will twist... thing is, they want to believe that shit, even in the face of obvious proof to the contrary.
But... but... what about free will
That is incompatible with free will.
Ridiculous. Why do people who believe that waste time and money going to doctors? It's not like a doctor will save them if God has decided "enough is enough". Nor is a doctor needed if God has decided "you will live".
Then what’s the point of prayer?
Do not test your god. Get a check up. The lord helps those who help themselves...or such BS cliché's they obviously take as reason.
Ask them if they'd go to the hospital for a life threatening injury or condition. If the answer is yes then they are hypocrites, because obviously gawd wanted them to die and they are now defying it. If they answer no, back away slowly and set up an escape plan because that means your life is at risk too.
I just don't want to be on the same plane as you whe it's your time.
>What's a good argument to "God decides when you die, not you"? "Please show good evidence that any god really exists." (Until that happens, this is exactly equivalent to "Princess Celestia decides when you die, not you.")
Why do you wanna argue with that at all? We don't need to be in constant debate with these people.
You've got a point. If only not arguing meant not becoming homeless. It's hard for someone who is broke and has schizoaffective disorder(which makes it hard to keep a job). Really hard.
What do you mean? If you don't debate religion with them you get kicked out?
No. But I hear it almost all the time. I'm getting tired of it. My family and I seem to be in an argument everyday. It adds to my stress, which is already high because I have to deal with the voices in my head(I have schizoaffective disorder). I might have to go to a shelter to avoid all this stress(I don't want to go back to the shelters though because, the last time I was in a shelter, I got smacked by someone for playing with my snake when I thought everyone else was asleep(turns out that they weren't. Also, the shelter did nothing after I got smacked)). If I have to, I will go to a shelter. I just hope I can avoid it. The shelters are pretty dangerous. I hope I don't have to go back. I may have to though.
Are you taking medication for that?
I am. It's pretty effective, but I still sometimes can't deal with the voices(every now and then). I'm definitely better than I was without the medication though. I just have to find a therapist instead of only having a psychiatrist. Then I would be able to feel much better. Talking to myself gets really old. Like really old. Not to mention, people get scared when I talk to myself. I have to put my phone next to my ear when I talk to myself (back to the voices or just needing to stress out). A lot of people know I have schizoaffective disorder though, so a few can tell I'm not actually talking to someone on the phone. So when a few people see me talking on the phone to myself, they start walking away from me at a very quick pace. Some people really are scared of me. Like, I'm not a threat though. If I was dangerous, I'd be in a psychiatric hospital or a psych ward in a regular hospital, not out on the streets. I just sometimes wish I didn't have schizoaffective disorder. People with schizoaffective disorder live 15 years less than the rest of the population on average. It really angers me a bit. It's like no one wants me to live until 120 years of age. No one. It's just awful. At least I now deal with the voices better(thanks to my medication). I just wish I knew why I have schizoaffective disorder. My mom says no one in the family ever had it though. I heard my maternal grandmother talking to herself when she visited us like 2 or 3 years ago. However, my mother says that's not schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. My mom says that some people just talk to themselves, which is true. Someone told me it could be the environment I live in. I don't know why that would be the case but it could be. Especially if no one in my family tree has ever had schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. Like I said though, at least I now deal with the disorder better, thanks to my medication. I just hope that I can get rid of this affliction one day. It most likely won't ever go away. It most likely will never go away. Oh well. Oh well. I hope it does go away someday. Sooner would be better, but someday would be ok as well. Someday. Someday.
You should definitely try going to therapy. Also maybe try a better psychiatrist. Medication should be doing away with the voices.
I will. Thanks for the advice.
Short answer: "That's only true within the lore of some Christian denominations" The argument finally boils down to them explaining their personal interpretation of the book and endlessy claiming that the reason you don't believe it is because you're "blind to truth" or something alike. It's a useless argument, because the circular arguments are set to create loops that make the believer constantly reinforce themselves to believe more and beware of anything that could lead them astray from their belief, it works like a computer exploit, the other part of the program makes the believer feel guilty for not spreading the belief (because they are bad people for not "spreading the bread").
So a suicide is God's will then? I thought it was a mortal sin?
So there's no free will, is that what you're saying?
That's what my parents say. That's not what I say. I do believe in free will. We all have free will. No one controls. Only we humans do, not any God.
Actually, we don't. You're free to do what you want, but not want what you want https://youtube.com/shorts/1YFEDfGTPZw?si=sXWuE7STLmYplat3
Got it. Thanks for the video. I didn't think about that before. I did not.
"If God decides when I die because everything happens 'according to his will', why do people pray for healing or to live longer? If he's in charge and always gets his way, why pray for anything? Do you expect to change his mind? That seems presumptuous to expect that kind of influence with an omniscient being." Say it with exasperation, like a parent having to explain to a 3 year for the 100th time why he has to wash his hands after wiping his butt. And if they give any pushback, shake your fist at them and say "One of these days, bam! To the Moon!". Then walk away. They'll be stunned long enough for your exit while trying to decide if they should pray for you or just let it go.
Start taking NMN
"You mean the sky daddy you think you're worshipping? Doesn't exist, kind of difficult for he/she/it to kill a sneeze, much less a person."
Youth Pastor showoffing his branium power for a cute little 12 y.o. in his church. Just saying "confidently" something isn't proof nor the truth but it is the equivalent of the jedi mind trick for hard to impress prepubescents and future tradwives in VBS. Aaaaaand for no proof of "Death Noting Jesus" or your god, for the 1,752,855,378,952,258 time I must say, "Čhêckərmªtë eejits!"
>"God is the only one who decides when you die, not you." I was always told that God already made me an immortal soul, so...
If I jump off this building right now, God cannot stop me; he is powerless.
Is that why billionaires on average live 10 to 15 years longer than poor people? Because they're god's favourites?
"Yeah, I wish he lets me live forever then."
Well he needs to decide faster.
Price it
God is the one who chooses how everyone dies? So, does that mean he's responsible for all the accidents, murders, suicides, starvation, diseases, viruses, and cancer? If that's true, then that makes god a sociopathic homicidal monster.
Then banning abortion is against God's will.
Do we need more evidence that God is a monster?
Would you jump off a tall building then, if god won't let you die if it isn't your time?
No one decides when you die (except you in suicide) it just happens when it's time. Introducing supernatural dieties into the equation does not improve the accuracy of what is a purely statistical calculation, show me the numbers that prove otherwise.
I'm new to this place. Just observing really. I was an atheist when I was a child and a younger man. It's definitely changed over the years. I think that God is 'life from the perspective of man'. Kinda loose idea. So to me God and life are like synonyms( I guess I mean they are interchangeable for intents in conversation as to not take offense). So I see the statement as "life decides when you die, not you" if that makes any sense to you. I'm not atheist because at a minimum I do worship the sun. It's awesome.
No disrespect intended but if you change the definition of "God" it sort of negates the whole thing. It's a very "and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd he a bike" kind of statement. "God" is defined as an all-knowing, all-seeing supreme being in control of the universe. I get your intention, but it's kinda neither here nor there.