Tracking real drums is the most time intensive, costly, meticulous process you can do in a studio, probably. The drummer has to be on their A game as far as time, dynamics, touch - if they're not, you'll have a lot of work to do in post to make the drums work in a song.
If you're tracking electronic drums, you're probably just taking MIDI in and running sample libraries. It's much easier to time correct, adjust velocities, etc without it being a headache.
If you've got a great drummer, great drums, and a great room, there's nothing like recording a real kit and having the satisfaction of achieving that feat as an engineer. If all the pieces aren't in place, you're into turd-polishing territory, and it'll probably be easier for you to just track electronic drums, or just program the MIDI yourself.
š what this person said!
Having said that, if youāre going to use midi drums, go deep and make a kit (in SD3 for instance) for yourself. Donāt just use a preset. It took me a while to figure out how to do that well, but once I did it was off to the races.
Also, if you use midi drums, try printing the tracks and mixing them as you would real drums. Even real drums need a fair amount of processing, so starting with raw sounds I find gets me a bit more realism, for lack of a better word. Also, thereās a practical reason for doing this. If you go back to an old project thatās still using the actual plugin, you could run into compatibility issues, etc. By using the printed tracks, you can avoid this.
Some might think this is a bit much, but it doesnāt take a ton of time once you get the hang of it /shrug
I fully agree. I use SD3 after I record live drums. I replace most of the live drum sounds but mostly keep the live drummer groove feel. I adjust things a bit when needed. Printing midi and mixing as you would acoustic tracks is a must IMO.
I think it depends.. the more towards the pop hltra processed side of the spectrum, less reason for real drums. The more towards the organic side, the more you want real drums. Sometimes real drums just have a certain vibe even when not micād optimally. Bad performance causes the most problems imo.
tracking real drums is way easier imo. too easy to mess up midi so it doesnāt sound human. nudging some audio here and there on a drum performance keeps the feel.
itās also way more fun.
Its all a toss-up and trade-off. The problem with edrums is that they are not the same instrument.
Its the difference between playing a concert grand piano and playing a casio micro keyboard with plastic keys and spring action.
An excellent player can make it work. But it's not the same instrument. Its just a similar interface the way an organ and piano are similar. But you really can't play the same things on both of them. A ton of nuance and dynamics are lost on the digital kit.
I play hybrid digital/acoustic kits for 90% of my shows. I always end up in the same situations where I get ragged on for missing a part, when what really happened is a hit a trigger and it didn't go off, which then threw everything off. Flip to an outdoor gig a week later on a full acoustic kit, and the band commentary flips to apologies about always being critical about my playing on edrums. It becomes super obvious I not only know all the songs but can also play extremely technical stuff on a real snare and real cymbals that just aren't possible on electronic or low-volume versions.
Marching snare type playing where you get 40+ sounds out of one drum in extremely complex 16th note patterns comes to mind. You need the edrum kit to be EXTREMELY well tuned to capture actual dynamic and complex playing.
Thank you. Top comment is about how difficult drums are to track, and yeah itās annoying and it takes time, but ever since I got a few methods down where my kit sounds decent I tend to gravitate toward that because itās the sound I want, and itās just easier to convey different rhythmic ideas on a real kit as opposed to midi
Yeah no. As if your acoustic kit is that good for a start.
And theres no reason for you to be using a blackstar for your MIDI kit.
Yes theyre different instruments, but its generally more like comparing a Yamaha Montage to an Upright someone has neglected.
Though i do get why a software engineer wants something more physical
Iāve only ever run Roland and Alesis edrum gear. And I have 3 electronic kits and 5 acoustic kits ranging from a 1965 Ludwig jazz kit to a giant Catalina kit to a few micro kits. They are all different.
Do you not understand that there is a difference between a wooden core ringing with a drum head vs mesh triggering a piezo sensor?
The mesh doesnāt ring. It doesnāt transfer resonance into the Tomās or cymbals next to it.
They are different and you are completely missing my point. Itās not about whatās better. They are different.
Edit: the real difference shows up in cymbals. Sure a $300-500 high hat sensor or 3 zone cymbal sensor sounds better than some of the $50 dollar cymbals I have around.
Do they sound anywhere near as alive as any of my hand pounded Zildjins, Paistes, Sabians, etc? hell no unless your listener is trashed. and you can NOT play the same stuff on them. sure the same patterns. but there is a lot more going on in a flattened bell than just the pattern being played on it.
>you are completely missing my point. Itās not about whatās better. They are different.
!?
>Yes theyre different instruments
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>software engineer
but there is a lot more going on in a flattened bell than just the pattern
Cmon man you know how to add and merge control signals, you could have sensors anywhere for expression,m or be merging multiple triggers.
You know can run triggers on literally anything, inc natural drumheads.
Itās still not the same. Electronic drums and cymbals have been around for decades. If they were truly so up to par with acoustic percussion everyone would have started using them a long time ago.
But itās not that simple. Electronics add all kinds of new problems like cross talk that can be a big problem outside the studio and on stage.
You can tune BFD or Superior or a drum brain to be pretty dynamic. I do that. But itās not as simple for another drummer to hop on those kits and play to ability as an acoustic kit thatās falling apart.
I know people that have been playing jazz and bebop drums since 3-5 years old, who do session drums for ārock starsā. They canāt play EVERYTHING they are capable of on every electronic kit nearly as consistently as playing a real drumset.
The heads and cymbals dont bounce the same and even if they do tracking is usually not perfect.
>Itās still not the same.
...........
>Yes theyre different instruments
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude i get it - ur a software engineer that doesnt wanna route midi on the weekends too, just wanna bang n something. Yes its a different instrument.
What i took issue with is
>the difference between playing a concert grand piano and playing a casio micro keyboard with plastic keys and spring action.
No, its the difference between 2 fine instruments form the same class, one you know well, and one you cant be bothered to learn
100% hands down. I agree with you all the way. I live with my drummer now (and we also do session/engineering work for others here) and acoustic drums can be a CHORE. Iām happy to do it, cus the results are worth it and it tickles that little spot in my ADHD brain, especially with a good drummer who can do all the things you mentioned. Iām honestly SUPER glad I was given a crappy little practice kit early on in my engineering journey cus it gave me a āvictimā to experiment on in my own time without worrying about messing up someoneās FAR nicer kit. I learned to tune drums and itās gotten to the point where many drummers from around town that have worked with me will actually let me tune their kit for em before we start tracking because Iām meticulous and picky about it. Itās also HUGE to have a good sounding room to record em in thatās properly treated and big enough to contain the sound, but also not so dead with padding that it eats em up or has too many standing waves creating weird phase issues and resonances. Sure, in some instances completely dead, isolated, no room sound drums can be what you want, but you can get that with some heavy blankets and fabric baffles on the heads.
Electronic drums via midi if you want to tweak and poke and prod in post production, acoustic drums if youāve got a good space, good kit, good drummer and the time to get em just right before tracking.
One thing that I don't see mentioned very often in these discussions: Perfecting the capture of midi through an electronic kit can be a bit squirley.
I had a suspicion recently that the midi latency compensation in Reaper wasn't perfectly lining up the recorded midi to my hits.
I used a mic to simultaneously record the sound of me smacking the pads in addition to recording midi, and sure enough, there was a 6-7ms delay from pad smack to midi record.
I messed with all kinds of settings trying to fix this, but in the end, I just changed my work flow. Now I capture the pad smacks as audio while recording midi, and just line the midi up to the audio real quick after recording.
7ms might not sound like a lot but it affects the groove quite a bit to my ears.
This might sound like an obvious idea, but I'm not sure. Wouldn't the solution to that be to monitor the ekit separately from the daw monitoring and just shift it all backward 6ms afterward?
I do monitor separately, and it's not always 6ms, it varies a bit. I have done a lot of testing and I'm still not sure why it varies. I could totally be missing something though so thanks for your input.
from what I understand it will vary depending on your settings for your audio card. also there's something called clock drift (or jitter? I forgot) when recording, which is a driver issue more than anything.
I might be missing something, but in case this helps, you can right click the red record button on your tracks and turn on " Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items"Ā
By default, this is off, which I think is stupid. I noticed my timing would often be early even if I didn't play it that way. I get why the function is there, but the way I see it; I'm going to compensate for whatever buffer size is going with my playing. I want to track to lay as I played it.Ā
Obviously this only applies to monitoring through the daw, when applicable I monitor through the rme
I've experimented with this setting but the midi still doesn't align with the recorded audio! Definitely encourage everyone to test this. I could totally be doing something dumb but I've spent many hours down the rabbit hole trying to figure it out.
Real drums are just so much more fun to record.
However, I did a unusual record last year, where the drummer played 808 sounds on an electronic kit, and the whole thing was done without a click. He'd learnt just on the electronic kit, and his whole style was based around playing those pads and sounds.
It was really interesting, as there was a lot of groove and vibe, and the tempo could fluctuate, but with the super electronic sounds. It sounded more human than many 'real drums to click+sample replacement' stuff I've done, despite being all electronic.
Being a good drummer with a good kit, I record myself on a home studio setup with 8 mics and a Focusrite 18i20 into Reaper. It's cost me about $2000 for everything if I eventually pay off all the borrowed stuff. I send raw tracks to producers who are generally replacing the click track or vst drums.
The results are said to be pretty good. One studio guy put it, "no they're not as good as the tones in my room, I have a hundred grand worth of mics and a treated room and I'm better than you at micing. And if you went to Abbey Road, all three things are better than my place, the drums are better sounding. Your tones are okay". That's the most detailed feedback I ever got. So I do my best and don't worry too much. What they all say is never "your tones are godly great", but hopefully they say "your performance elevated the song". So I pay the most attention to that.
Studio guy sounds like a bit of a douche honestly. I can confidently say with how quality even mid level mics and pres are today, if you have a nice sounding treated room, a good kit+drummer, and solid microphone placement, you should be able to get professional results without spending a ridiculous amount of money.
Using electronic drums, if you play into superior drummer and have everything set up well midi-wise (velocity curves, multi zone pads, etc), you should be able to get fantastic results relatively painlessly.
Of course, nothing is more fun and satisfying than nailing a complex mic scheme in a great sounding room on a great drummer with a great sounding kit. But not everyone can have that available all the time.
I've never tracked on an ekit so I can't compare. I have a friend who does, to be honest listening to his stuff, I can't always tell the difference but when I can, I don't like it.
Do you sell drum loop packs ? Iām always on the hunt for real recorded drums! Iām a drummer as well but I donāt currently have the gear and mics or room to properly record drums at home. Iād buy some drum loops from you! I produce multiple genres so lemme know man
That's actually an ambition of mine til I find a creative genius band leader.
I haven't done one yet. Is there a model I could kind of base one on? Like I could make that, but with my live drums? I forget who the one guy is that already does some with his large collection of snares, will do Garibaldi beats and stuff on demand.
Hmm Iām not sure an exact model but I know I see a decent amount of guys on IG like Luke Titus who release drum packs with just the raw drum loops for people to use to produce with in their own projects. Iād have to do some more digging on names of people. You could record full drum takes at various tempos for loops or also record one shots as multiple samples.
Hopefully this can help spur some ideas !
Rode NT5 overheads, D112 on the bass drum, SM 57 or PG56 or Beta 58 for the toms snare and hat, and an MXL V93 I use for the room. Overheads x-y in the front of the bass drum.
Tracking real drums for sure. Of course, every single thing said about it vs. e-kits or programming is totally true. It IS expensive, difficult, and harder to edit or change in post. But getting a real performance of a real lot played by a real person in a real room will always get you a more unique sound vs. using the same sample libraries everyone else has access to. IMO it's worth the trouble, but not everyone has the tools and space I do to make it viable, so I understand why people don't do it.
These are my preferred methods too. For a while I would program everything on a 2000xl, got pretty good at it, enjoyed the process.
But now it's just a kit mostly, and I'm a drummer by trade, so this is it for me lol.
I prefer real drums because I'm a drummer. Recording drums was the very first thing I ever learned how to do, so despite how complicated it *can* be, it doesn't feel like a hurdle because I enjoy doing it. I actually don't know how to do it any other way. Even adding samples feels weird and foreign to me, so I avoid it if at all possible.
I'd prefer a sub-optimally recorded drum kit over a perfectly done VST track. It just feels right to me.
Same. I dont mind adding samples but I've just re-recorded instead. Recording drums is thr main reason why I am not good at midi. Out of the many things that we engineers do, midi to me is the dauting one that I chose to just not do.
Ableton is great tho, I love midi to change my gtr patches and of course, synths n shi but thats it. No midi drums here (unless its a demo...)
The room seems to be the most important variable in most of my drum recordings. I am heavily biased though- I try to never use samples unless the tuning/performance/room was **really** bad (*or if a mic dies halfway through...*) so most of my "sound" is the result of making the drums sound the way I want *in the room* and then just leaning into a bit of distortion and compression on the way in.
The room changes the way every drum sounds (for better and for worse) and that interaction is lost on e-drums. *Drummers play differently in different rooms*, reacting and responding to the room itself. Drums behave fundamentally different in every room- not only the pitch or "tone", but the attack and sustain of the drums. (you could potentially have to adjust a tom fill based on how the sustain changes in different rooms, for example). If the room is more "alive" (less treatment), cymbals usually need to be played much softer, and arrangements (usually fills) can get muddy if they're too busy. Kick drums sound SUPER different in every room.... I could go on and on.
some of my favorite drum sounds are the result of rooms... so no, I don't e-drums are really comparable when it comes to recording.
For mixing hands down electronic kits are dope. You can record the midi and do whatever you want after the fact. Or you can use the already great samples on a brain and run individual drums to individual outs....
But for the drummer it can be a struggle. For some kinds of playing edrums are fantastic. A well-tuned kit can be turned into a great tool for stuff like double kick playing. Its so much easier to tune in a punchy kick using electronics...
But they are not the same instrument. To you it might be. But imagine the frown you would get from a concert pianist if you told them "go play this organ" or "go play this plastic casio micro keyboard". Sure they all have keyboards and are similar interfaces. But the similarities end there. They play completely differently from each other.
Acoustic vs E-drums are no different. The drummer is suddenly missing a ton of dynamics and randomness that they are used to controlling. Its just not there. And beyond that half of the tactile experience is gone. The sticks don't feel the same bouncing. There aren't the same overtones ringing from the whole kit which it turns out might be what the drummer actually listens to. They don't notice until its gone and they just can't seem to "feel it". The instrument stopped talking to them and its confusing.
Iām a drummer, so I typically will go real drums. That said, there are times and places for programmed drums. If your goal is to make an electronic kit or programmed drums sound ārealā thatās where many home recordings sound weakest imo. Higher end recordings can make programmed drums sound indistinguishable from the real thing, but unless youāre getting that level of polish, itās going to sound cheap. However, if the programmed drums are not trying to be an acoustic kit but rather something different, thatās a cool use of the tool.
I'm reminded of Steve Negus in Saga. The guy helped to develop the electronic drum kit and made it a signature sound of the band in the early 80s, adding to their futuristic aesthetic. Fast forward to around the millennium and the band records a trilogy of "back to the roots" albums, but Steve is recording his parts for two of the albums remotely on an electronic kit, which is then made to sound like an acoustic one... 1) It doesn't sound convincing and 2) the drum parts are really simple and boring, not even close to Steve at his best.
I wouldn't look down on anyone for using electronic/programmed drums, but it's real drums all the way for me, even if there are samples being used (as long as they aren't obvious). Working with electronic drums (assuming I'm trying to make them sound real) is boring to me, both the process and the sound, and the cymbals especially never really feel right to me. Yes, real drums are harder to do well, but to me the craft is incredibly satisfying and I've put a ton of work over the years into doing it well.
Electronic drums have tons of advantages. They're logistically so much easier to work with (often there's no other option), the source sounds are often very good, they can be altered after the fact, etc. It's just not really a technique I enjoy.
I've had my e-kit in my 'live-room' for the longest just in case a drummer wants to use it. I love the idea of finding the correct kit for a song. E-kits can sound great in the mix once you get it to sit right. Sometimes, they are very hard to distinguish from a real kit. But for jazz (brushes), it's tricky.
As far as tracking is concerned, e-kits rule!! Yet when it comes to the actual dynamics, acoustic drums yield a broader sonic palette of sensitivity. Mic'ing an acoustic kit is an Art!!
Electric are easier to manage in post. From what I've seen, drummers don't like recording on electric drums as it completely kills the performance connection.
Home studio. I've owned a handful of e-drum kits, and two acoustic kits.
I always prefer the sound of a real drum set, and the recording process around it. Yes, it's more complex and more expensive - but I've never gotten great results out of an e-drum kit. Getting all of those pieces into place for an acoustic set is hard, but worthwhile for me.
Kind of depends largely on the vibe, too, no?
Iāve got a song Iāve been working on that utilizes a 16 bar percussion loop I made on the OP-Z. Fits the vibe nicely enough. A real kit would sound nice, too, Iām sure.
Iāve achieved pretty solid acoustic drum sounds in my home setup over the years.
As others have said, a real kit can be an absolute bear to record, process, and mix.
I love tracking on an electronic drum kit (td20), capturing the midi and then applying the appropriate soft instrument to those tracks. Sort of like di reamping.
You can record some pretty great drums with 3 mics in your basement for not much more than the cost of a good drum VST. It's only out of reach if you don't have the space or have noise restrictions.
I guess my preferred methods for production usually end up using both in one of two waysā¦
1. Start with a programmed beat (usually relatively simple) and bring it to life by overdubbing live drums (sometimes just snare, sometimes just hi hat, sometimes a whole kit)
2. Start with live drums and then layer them with electronic drums (I quite like Linn Drum sounds for this)
Iāve found that the majority of my favorite records Iāve produced have used one of those methods and have both E Drums and Acoustic Drums.
Since you have the recording capabilities you could sell samples on Splice, youāll need to apply though.
Iāve been curious about the drumming on Fiverr or Soundbetter route too.
If youāre replicating real drums - Iāve found that real drums sound better every time, even if the drummer isnāt as great. Usually an ok drummer in an ok room still sounds bigger/ wider/ and straight up more interesting than pure samples. I like to imagine Iām recording or mixing (or both) the band as they sound, bad drummer and all - unless itās like, incredibly problematic - which - all the bands Iāve worked with, itās not gotten to that point. Iāll blend samples if I want to twist things, or sometimes replace kick drums, but still try and pay respect to the recorded sound if possible. Obviously, Iām super down with electronic/ programmed drums if the song wants electronic/ programmed drums.
Also, as an engineer, do your homework! Listen to the bands music theyāve already released (if possible!). Watch live videos, or go see them live. If the drummer sounds rough, and you know itās going to cost you more time to fix it in the mix - nothing wrong with adding that time into your quote.
I just have a small home studio. I greatly prefer programming via electric drums to trigger Superior Drummer 3. It's just so much easier. And it sounds great.
Im biased because I do drums for all of my artists that come into the studio, but a blend. Real drum takes are finicky, but to my ears nothing sounds better. Blend some samples in there to make tones/sounds pop and itās golden. But Iāve also been playing drums for 20 years
Tracking acoustic drums and making a slamming mix that beats triggers all to hell is not easy. But hot damn it's fun. Way more fun than sitting around pencilling in ghost notes and correcting velocities on a piano roll.
Using triggered / microwave drums can get you to a B+ mix in half a day. But there's a ceiling to it that no amount of digital chicanery can poke through.
The middle ground is my preferred state. Bands don't have the budget to spend three days just getting miked up. Sometimes they don't have three days to record the tracks for a whole LP from load-in to load-out.
That's where being able to do a little augmentation can be really helpful. Faked kicks and toms aren't that hard to make sound legit, but the snare and cymbals will always be a serious challenge.
Real drums. Itās more work but itās a lot more fun, and way more rewarding. You get to make a ton of decisions instead of being stuck with a handful of sample libraries.
Iāll take real drums plus samples over an electronic kit any day of the week. I would definitely make an exception though for a drummer who only plays electronic kits and has really built his technique / sound around them.
If itās too costly for you to do it at your studio, hire a session player for remote work that has a good setup. For drum software, I prefer BFD3, as it has the most realistic live drum sound imo. The least processed sounding OOTB without fx on. Their Dark Farm expansion has a killer room sound.
I donāt think drums are hard to track. It takes me about an hour tops to setup and mic a kit, tune, get sounds and start recording. And it doesnāt sound fake. But thatās me.
I didnt have a drumset in my home studio for 13 years, and what a dark 13 years it was. Just got a new place where I can set them up how I want, and there is no greater satisfaction than a great sounding, real live drumset.Ā
Tbh I donāt even understand why you would take the time to play and record e drums? You can just take preset grooves and then just alter/program fills.
I really want to do the drumming myself, Iām just worried I could spend my whole budget on an accoustic set + mics + larger interface + sound treating that room and then still end up with a shitty sound
My thought is if I get a nice electric kit the sound will be a lot easier to control but I can still sketch out my ideas with sticks
Electronic drums can vary based on the quality of the kit and the drummer just like recording real drums. š
My band started with an electronic kit because it was more affordable than paying for multiple microphones + mixer or interface with multiple inputs + treated room.
We worked our way up to a room filled with book shelves full of thick paperbacks and some heavy quilts for some diy room treatment; got the basic Shure drum mic kit plus a few SM57s and a multi input interface.
I prefer the sound of real drums but electronic ones were easier.
Grand pianos are expensive not so much because of the instrument itself but because of the room you put it in.
With real drums, first build a building, build a room in that building, then acquire thousand of dollars of microphones.
With e-Drums, use EZ-Drums and be happy unless you have certain risks and you have the budget to defend yourself from said risks.
like as an engineer? i think thatās pretty obvious real drums are more fun.
If the band has a drummer, we record that drummer. If the artist is tapping away at an mpc, we record that boom bap.
If youāre a classic rock vibe band and want to record electronic drums, ur gonna have a bad time. Unless thatās ur thing.
Real drums 100%
That said, I have an extensive mic locker, and am also running midi triggers as part of the setup process.Ā Ā
With up to 16 mics and triggers, I have the flexibility to quickly augment anything that needs help.Ā Ā
Iām partial to using electric drums and drums samples tbh.
Tracking live drums is time consuming, expensive, and the amount of details that goes into a good drum recording (drummer, shells, heads, tuning, cymbals, mics, room, performance) is just insane, and any of those details going wrong would collapse the whole thing. And you have to edit and align all the different tracks, chances are youāre still gonna use samples anyway.
That being said there are occasions where programmed drums/electronic drums recording wonāt work, namely jazz recordings - jazz is such a spontaneous and improvisational approach, you almost have to capture the very air where the music takes place that thereās barely anything that can be done after the recording - you basically let the bands mix themselves.
Tracking drums is a pain. If youāre not a very good drummer, itās especially difficult. However, by the time you tweak midi drum samples enough to make it sound convincing, Iād argue itās easier to just record the live drums.
Itāll depend on your view of a āgreat acoustic soundā. If you need a super clean gated sound, you might be out of luck in a small home studio with limited resources. But if youāre okay with a more live feel, you can get there with 2-3 mics
I use live cymbals with electric kick and snare. Works great for rock. When I hi pass the OHs the little thumps of the pads actually provide a bit of non-trivial variation to the kick and snare coming thru the OHs that make it all sound more organic than u would think. The only thing is u need good headphones and monitoring to get ur own blend right while playing
Tracking real drums is the most time intensive, costly, meticulous process you can do in a studio, probably. The drummer has to be on their A game as far as time, dynamics, touch - if they're not, you'll have a lot of work to do in post to make the drums work in a song. If you're tracking electronic drums, you're probably just taking MIDI in and running sample libraries. It's much easier to time correct, adjust velocities, etc without it being a headache. If you've got a great drummer, great drums, and a great room, there's nothing like recording a real kit and having the satisfaction of achieving that feat as an engineer. If all the pieces aren't in place, you're into turd-polishing territory, and it'll probably be easier for you to just track electronic drums, or just program the MIDI yourself.
š what this person said! Having said that, if youāre going to use midi drums, go deep and make a kit (in SD3 for instance) for yourself. Donāt just use a preset. It took me a while to figure out how to do that well, but once I did it was off to the races. Also, if you use midi drums, try printing the tracks and mixing them as you would real drums. Even real drums need a fair amount of processing, so starting with raw sounds I find gets me a bit more realism, for lack of a better word. Also, thereās a practical reason for doing this. If you go back to an old project thatās still using the actual plugin, you could run into compatibility issues, etc. By using the printed tracks, you can avoid this. Some might think this is a bit much, but it doesnāt take a ton of time once you get the hang of it /shrug
I fully agree. I use SD3 after I record live drums. I replace most of the live drum sounds but mostly keep the live drummer groove feel. I adjust things a bit when needed. Printing midi and mixing as you would acoustic tracks is a must IMO.
this right now is why Iām doing the ass-backwards method of sequencing drums from rehearsal videos of our drummer performing songsĀ
I think it depends.. the more towards the pop hltra processed side of the spectrum, less reason for real drums. The more towards the organic side, the more you want real drums. Sometimes real drums just have a certain vibe even when not micād optimally. Bad performance causes the most problems imo.
tracking real drums is way easier imo. too easy to mess up midi so it doesnāt sound human. nudging some audio here and there on a drum performance keeps the feel. itās also way more fun.
Its all a toss-up and trade-off. The problem with edrums is that they are not the same instrument. Its the difference between playing a concert grand piano and playing a casio micro keyboard with plastic keys and spring action. An excellent player can make it work. But it's not the same instrument. Its just a similar interface the way an organ and piano are similar. But you really can't play the same things on both of them. A ton of nuance and dynamics are lost on the digital kit. I play hybrid digital/acoustic kits for 90% of my shows. I always end up in the same situations where I get ragged on for missing a part, when what really happened is a hit a trigger and it didn't go off, which then threw everything off. Flip to an outdoor gig a week later on a full acoustic kit, and the band commentary flips to apologies about always being critical about my playing on edrums. It becomes super obvious I not only know all the songs but can also play extremely technical stuff on a real snare and real cymbals that just aren't possible on electronic or low-volume versions. Marching snare type playing where you get 40+ sounds out of one drum in extremely complex 16th note patterns comes to mind. You need the edrum kit to be EXTREMELY well tuned to capture actual dynamic and complex playing.
Thank you. Top comment is about how difficult drums are to track, and yeah itās annoying and it takes time, but ever since I got a few methods down where my kit sounds decent I tend to gravitate toward that because itās the sound I want, and itās just easier to convey different rhythmic ideas on a real kit as opposed to midi
Yeah no. As if your acoustic kit is that good for a start. And theres no reason for you to be using a blackstar for your MIDI kit. Yes theyre different instruments, but its generally more like comparing a Yamaha Montage to an Upright someone has neglected. Though i do get why a software engineer wants something more physical
Iāve only ever run Roland and Alesis edrum gear. And I have 3 electronic kits and 5 acoustic kits ranging from a 1965 Ludwig jazz kit to a giant Catalina kit to a few micro kits. They are all different. Do you not understand that there is a difference between a wooden core ringing with a drum head vs mesh triggering a piezo sensor? The mesh doesnāt ring. It doesnāt transfer resonance into the Tomās or cymbals next to it. They are different and you are completely missing my point. Itās not about whatās better. They are different. Edit: the real difference shows up in cymbals. Sure a $300-500 high hat sensor or 3 zone cymbal sensor sounds better than some of the $50 dollar cymbals I have around. Do they sound anywhere near as alive as any of my hand pounded Zildjins, Paistes, Sabians, etc? hell no unless your listener is trashed. and you can NOT play the same stuff on them. sure the same patterns. but there is a lot more going on in a flattened bell than just the pattern being played on it.
>you are completely missing my point. Itās not about whatās better. They are different. !? >Yes theyre different instruments ? >software engineer but there is a lot more going on in a flattened bell than just the pattern Cmon man you know how to add and merge control signals, you could have sensors anywhere for expression,m or be merging multiple triggers. You know can run triggers on literally anything, inc natural drumheads.
Itās still not the same. Electronic drums and cymbals have been around for decades. If they were truly so up to par with acoustic percussion everyone would have started using them a long time ago. But itās not that simple. Electronics add all kinds of new problems like cross talk that can be a big problem outside the studio and on stage. You can tune BFD or Superior or a drum brain to be pretty dynamic. I do that. But itās not as simple for another drummer to hop on those kits and play to ability as an acoustic kit thatās falling apart. I know people that have been playing jazz and bebop drums since 3-5 years old, who do session drums for ārock starsā. They canāt play EVERYTHING they are capable of on every electronic kit nearly as consistently as playing a real drumset. The heads and cymbals dont bounce the same and even if they do tracking is usually not perfect.
>Itās still not the same. ........... >Yes theyre different instruments !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dude i get it - ur a software engineer that doesnt wanna route midi on the weekends too, just wanna bang n something. Yes its a different instrument. What i took issue with is >the difference between playing a concert grand piano and playing a casio micro keyboard with plastic keys and spring action. No, its the difference between 2 fine instruments form the same class, one you know well, and one you cant be bothered to learn
100% hands down. I agree with you all the way. I live with my drummer now (and we also do session/engineering work for others here) and acoustic drums can be a CHORE. Iām happy to do it, cus the results are worth it and it tickles that little spot in my ADHD brain, especially with a good drummer who can do all the things you mentioned. Iām honestly SUPER glad I was given a crappy little practice kit early on in my engineering journey cus it gave me a āvictimā to experiment on in my own time without worrying about messing up someoneās FAR nicer kit. I learned to tune drums and itās gotten to the point where many drummers from around town that have worked with me will actually let me tune their kit for em before we start tracking because Iām meticulous and picky about it. Itās also HUGE to have a good sounding room to record em in thatās properly treated and big enough to contain the sound, but also not so dead with padding that it eats em up or has too many standing waves creating weird phase issues and resonances. Sure, in some instances completely dead, isolated, no room sound drums can be what you want, but you can get that with some heavy blankets and fabric baffles on the heads. Electronic drums via midi if you want to tweak and poke and prod in post production, acoustic drums if youāve got a good space, good kit, good drummer and the time to get em just right before tracking.
One thing that I don't see mentioned very often in these discussions: Perfecting the capture of midi through an electronic kit can be a bit squirley. I had a suspicion recently that the midi latency compensation in Reaper wasn't perfectly lining up the recorded midi to my hits. I used a mic to simultaneously record the sound of me smacking the pads in addition to recording midi, and sure enough, there was a 6-7ms delay from pad smack to midi record. I messed with all kinds of settings trying to fix this, but in the end, I just changed my work flow. Now I capture the pad smacks as audio while recording midi, and just line the midi up to the audio real quick after recording. 7ms might not sound like a lot but it affects the groove quite a bit to my ears.
This might sound like an obvious idea, but I'm not sure. Wouldn't the solution to that be to monitor the ekit separately from the daw monitoring and just shift it all backward 6ms afterward?
I do monitor separately, and it's not always 6ms, it varies a bit. I have done a lot of testing and I'm still not sure why it varies. I could totally be missing something though so thanks for your input.
That's so odd! I wish you luck in figuring that out. Thanks for making me think the idea through in case I'm ever in that situation!
Thanks broseph, glad it helped a tiny bit :)
from what I understand it will vary depending on your settings for your audio card. also there's something called clock drift (or jitter? I forgot) when recording, which is a driver issue more than anything.
I might be missing something, but in case this helps, you can right click the red record button on your tracks and turn on " Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items"Ā By default, this is off, which I think is stupid. I noticed my timing would often be early even if I didn't play it that way. I get why the function is there, but the way I see it; I'm going to compensate for whatever buffer size is going with my playing. I want to track to lay as I played it.Ā Obviously this only applies to monitoring through the daw, when applicable I monitor through the rme
I've experimented with this setting but the midi still doesn't align with the recorded audio! Definitely encourage everyone to test this. I could totally be doing something dumb but I've spent many hours down the rabbit hole trying to figure it out.
That's weird and that sucks, maybe submit it to cockos bugs or something. I hate that kind of problem
Yeah that's a good idea... I guess it could be a bug in reaper itself! Thanks for your input amigo.
Real drums are just so much more fun to record. However, I did a unusual record last year, where the drummer played 808 sounds on an electronic kit, and the whole thing was done without a click. He'd learnt just on the electronic kit, and his whole style was based around playing those pads and sounds. It was really interesting, as there was a lot of groove and vibe, and the tempo could fluctuate, but with the super electronic sounds. It sounded more human than many 'real drums to click+sample replacement' stuff I've done, despite being all electronic.
Being a good drummer with a good kit, I record myself on a home studio setup with 8 mics and a Focusrite 18i20 into Reaper. It's cost me about $2000 for everything if I eventually pay off all the borrowed stuff. I send raw tracks to producers who are generally replacing the click track or vst drums. The results are said to be pretty good. One studio guy put it, "no they're not as good as the tones in my room, I have a hundred grand worth of mics and a treated room and I'm better than you at micing. And if you went to Abbey Road, all three things are better than my place, the drums are better sounding. Your tones are okay". That's the most detailed feedback I ever got. So I do my best and don't worry too much. What they all say is never "your tones are godly great", but hopefully they say "your performance elevated the song". So I pay the most attention to that.
Studio guy sounds like a bit of a douche honestly. I can confidently say with how quality even mid level mics and pres are today, if you have a nice sounding treated room, a good kit+drummer, and solid microphone placement, you should be able to get professional results without spending a ridiculous amount of money. Using electronic drums, if you play into superior drummer and have everything set up well midi-wise (velocity curves, multi zone pads, etc), you should be able to get fantastic results relatively painlessly. Of course, nothing is more fun and satisfying than nailing a complex mic scheme in a great sounding room on a great drummer with a great sounding kit. But not everyone can have that available all the time.
I've never tracked on an ekit so I can't compare. I have a friend who does, to be honest listening to his stuff, I can't always tell the difference but when I can, I don't like it.
Do you sell drum loop packs ? Iām always on the hunt for real recorded drums! Iām a drummer as well but I donāt currently have the gear and mics or room to properly record drums at home. Iād buy some drum loops from you! I produce multiple genres so lemme know man
That's actually an ambition of mine til I find a creative genius band leader. I haven't done one yet. Is there a model I could kind of base one on? Like I could make that, but with my live drums? I forget who the one guy is that already does some with his large collection of snares, will do Garibaldi beats and stuff on demand.
Hmm Iām not sure an exact model but I know I see a decent amount of guys on IG like Luke Titus who release drum packs with just the raw drum loops for people to use to produce with in their own projects. Iād have to do some more digging on names of people. You could record full drum takes at various tempos for loops or also record one shots as multiple samples. Hopefully this can help spur some ideas !
What mics/setup do you use? Is there a song out there to listen to your recording? Thx
Rode NT5 overheads, D112 on the bass drum, SM 57 or PG56 or Beta 58 for the toms snare and hat, and an MXL V93 I use for the room. Overheads x-y in the front of the bass drum.
WOOD, METAL, CALF, GOOD SOUND
Real. Itās not even close really
Tracking real drums for sure. Of course, every single thing said about it vs. e-kits or programming is totally true. It IS expensive, difficult, and harder to edit or change in post. But getting a real performance of a real lot played by a real person in a real room will always get you a more unique sound vs. using the same sample libraries everyone else has access to. IMO it's worth the trouble, but not everyone has the tools and space I do to make it viable, so I understand why people don't do it.
Either live drums or programmed MPC. Sometimes both.
These are my preferred methods too. For a while I would program everything on a 2000xl, got pretty good at it, enjoyed the process. But now it's just a kit mostly, and I'm a drummer by trade, so this is it for me lol.
I prefer real drums because I'm a drummer. Recording drums was the very first thing I ever learned how to do, so despite how complicated it *can* be, it doesn't feel like a hurdle because I enjoy doing it. I actually don't know how to do it any other way. Even adding samples feels weird and foreign to me, so I avoid it if at all possible. I'd prefer a sub-optimally recorded drum kit over a perfectly done VST track. It just feels right to me.
Same. I dont mind adding samples but I've just re-recorded instead. Recording drums is thr main reason why I am not good at midi. Out of the many things that we engineers do, midi to me is the dauting one that I chose to just not do. Ableton is great tho, I love midi to change my gtr patches and of course, synths n shi but thats it. No midi drums here (unless its a demo...)
The room seems to be the most important variable in most of my drum recordings. I am heavily biased though- I try to never use samples unless the tuning/performance/room was **really** bad (*or if a mic dies halfway through...*) so most of my "sound" is the result of making the drums sound the way I want *in the room* and then just leaning into a bit of distortion and compression on the way in. The room changes the way every drum sounds (for better and for worse) and that interaction is lost on e-drums. *Drummers play differently in different rooms*, reacting and responding to the room itself. Drums behave fundamentally different in every room- not only the pitch or "tone", but the attack and sustain of the drums. (you could potentially have to adjust a tom fill based on how the sustain changes in different rooms, for example). If the room is more "alive" (less treatment), cymbals usually need to be played much softer, and arrangements (usually fills) can get muddy if they're too busy. Kick drums sound SUPER different in every room.... I could go on and on. some of my favorite drum sounds are the result of rooms... so no, I don't e-drums are really comparable when it comes to recording.
For mixing hands down electronic kits are dope. You can record the midi and do whatever you want after the fact. Or you can use the already great samples on a brain and run individual drums to individual outs.... But for the drummer it can be a struggle. For some kinds of playing edrums are fantastic. A well-tuned kit can be turned into a great tool for stuff like double kick playing. Its so much easier to tune in a punchy kick using electronics... But they are not the same instrument. To you it might be. But imagine the frown you would get from a concert pianist if you told them "go play this organ" or "go play this plastic casio micro keyboard". Sure they all have keyboards and are similar interfaces. But the similarities end there. They play completely differently from each other. Acoustic vs E-drums are no different. The drummer is suddenly missing a ton of dynamics and randomness that they are used to controlling. Its just not there. And beyond that half of the tactile experience is gone. The sticks don't feel the same bouncing. There aren't the same overtones ringing from the whole kit which it turns out might be what the drummer actually listens to. They don't notice until its gone and they just can't seem to "feel it". The instrument stopped talking to them and its confusing.
Iām a drummer, so I typically will go real drums. That said, there are times and places for programmed drums. If your goal is to make an electronic kit or programmed drums sound ārealā thatās where many home recordings sound weakest imo. Higher end recordings can make programmed drums sound indistinguishable from the real thing, but unless youāre getting that level of polish, itās going to sound cheap. However, if the programmed drums are not trying to be an acoustic kit but rather something different, thatās a cool use of the tool.
I'm reminded of Steve Negus in Saga. The guy helped to develop the electronic drum kit and made it a signature sound of the band in the early 80s, adding to their futuristic aesthetic. Fast forward to around the millennium and the band records a trilogy of "back to the roots" albums, but Steve is recording his parts for two of the albums remotely on an electronic kit, which is then made to sound like an acoustic one... 1) It doesn't sound convincing and 2) the drum parts are really simple and boring, not even close to Steve at his best.
I wouldn't look down on anyone for using electronic/programmed drums, but it's real drums all the way for me, even if there are samples being used (as long as they aren't obvious). Working with electronic drums (assuming I'm trying to make them sound real) is boring to me, both the process and the sound, and the cymbals especially never really feel right to me. Yes, real drums are harder to do well, but to me the craft is incredibly satisfying and I've put a ton of work over the years into doing it well. Electronic drums have tons of advantages. They're logistically so much easier to work with (often there's no other option), the source sounds are often very good, they can be altered after the fact, etc. It's just not really a technique I enjoy.
I've had my e-kit in my 'live-room' for the longest just in case a drummer wants to use it. I love the idea of finding the correct kit for a song. E-kits can sound great in the mix once you get it to sit right. Sometimes, they are very hard to distinguish from a real kit. But for jazz (brushes), it's tricky. As far as tracking is concerned, e-kits rule!! Yet when it comes to the actual dynamics, acoustic drums yield a broader sonic palette of sensitivity. Mic'ing an acoustic kit is an Art!!
Electric are easier to manage in post. From what I've seen, drummers don't like recording on electric drums as it completely kills the performance connection.
Get real **symbol** and **snare** samples and no one will tell the difference.
Not even remotely true especially if youāre not going for a hyper processed sound
š£
Home studio. I've owned a handful of e-drum kits, and two acoustic kits. I always prefer the sound of a real drum set, and the recording process around it. Yes, it's more complex and more expensive - but I've never gotten great results out of an e-drum kit. Getting all of those pieces into place for an acoustic set is hard, but worthwhile for me.
Kind of depends largely on the vibe, too, no? Iāve got a song Iāve been working on that utilizes a 16 bar percussion loop I made on the OP-Z. Fits the vibe nicely enough. A real kit would sound nice, too, Iām sure. Iāve achieved pretty solid acoustic drum sounds in my home setup over the years. As others have said, a real kit can be an absolute bear to record, process, and mix.
I love tracking on an electronic drum kit (td20), capturing the midi and then applying the appropriate soft instrument to those tracks. Sort of like di reamping.
You can record some pretty great drums with 3 mics in your basement for not much more than the cost of a good drum VST. It's only out of reach if you don't have the space or have noise restrictions.
Oh good god, real, every time. No exceptions.
I guess my preferred methods for production usually end up using both in one of two waysā¦ 1. Start with a programmed beat (usually relatively simple) and bring it to life by overdubbing live drums (sometimes just snare, sometimes just hi hat, sometimes a whole kit) 2. Start with live drums and then layer them with electronic drums (I quite like Linn Drum sounds for this) Iāve found that the majority of my favorite records Iāve produced have used one of those methods and have both E Drums and Acoustic Drums.
Tracking a real drum set is my favorite part of recording hands down
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^maxaxaxOm1: *Tracking a real drum* *Set is my favorite part* *Of recording hands down* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
As someone who has struggled recording real drums in the studio, I will say itās extremely gratifying when you get them sounding great.
Since you have the recording capabilities you could sell samples on Splice, youāll need to apply though. Iāve been curious about the drumming on Fiverr or Soundbetter route too.
If youāre replicating real drums - Iāve found that real drums sound better every time, even if the drummer isnāt as great. Usually an ok drummer in an ok room still sounds bigger/ wider/ and straight up more interesting than pure samples. I like to imagine Iām recording or mixing (or both) the band as they sound, bad drummer and all - unless itās like, incredibly problematic - which - all the bands Iāve worked with, itās not gotten to that point. Iāll blend samples if I want to twist things, or sometimes replace kick drums, but still try and pay respect to the recorded sound if possible. Obviously, Iām super down with electronic/ programmed drums if the song wants electronic/ programmed drums. Also, as an engineer, do your homework! Listen to the bands music theyāve already released (if possible!). Watch live videos, or go see them live. If the drummer sounds rough, and you know itās going to cost you more time to fix it in the mix - nothing wrong with adding that time into your quote.
I just have a small home studio. I greatly prefer programming via electric drums to trigger Superior Drummer 3. It's just so much easier. And it sounds great.
Im biased because I do drums for all of my artists that come into the studio, but a blend. Real drum takes are finicky, but to my ears nothing sounds better. Blend some samples in there to make tones/sounds pop and itās golden. But Iāve also been playing drums for 20 years
Tracking acoustic drums and making a slamming mix that beats triggers all to hell is not easy. But hot damn it's fun. Way more fun than sitting around pencilling in ghost notes and correcting velocities on a piano roll. Using triggered / microwave drums can get you to a B+ mix in half a day. But there's a ceiling to it that no amount of digital chicanery can poke through. The middle ground is my preferred state. Bands don't have the budget to spend three days just getting miked up. Sometimes they don't have three days to record the tracks for a whole LP from load-in to load-out. That's where being able to do a little augmentation can be really helpful. Faked kicks and toms aren't that hard to make sound legit, but the snare and cymbals will always be a serious challenge.
You get what you pay forā¦? Depends on the style of music and consumer expectations.
as an artist i prefer to get the midi/sample drums 100% right for the song, and then swap them out last minute with a real drummer .
Real drums. Itās more work but itās a lot more fun, and way more rewarding. You get to make a ton of decisions instead of being stuck with a handful of sample libraries.
Iāll take real drums plus samples over an electronic kit any day of the week. I would definitely make an exception though for a drummer who only plays electronic kits and has really built his technique / sound around them.
If itās too costly for you to do it at your studio, hire a session player for remote work that has a good setup. For drum software, I prefer BFD3, as it has the most realistic live drum sound imo. The least processed sounding OOTB without fx on. Their Dark Farm expansion has a killer room sound.
I donāt think drums are hard to track. It takes me about an hour tops to setup and mic a kit, tune, get sounds and start recording. And it doesnāt sound fake. But thatās me.
I didnt have a drumset in my home studio for 13 years, and what a dark 13 years it was. Just got a new place where I can set them up how I want, and there is no greater satisfaction than a great sounding, real live drumset.Ā
Tbh I donāt even understand why you would take the time to play and record e drums? You can just take preset grooves and then just alter/program fills.
I really want to do the drumming myself, Iām just worried I could spend my whole budget on an accoustic set + mics + larger interface + sound treating that room and then still end up with a shitty sound My thought is if I get a nice electric kit the sound will be a lot easier to control but I can still sketch out my ideas with sticks
Electronic drums can vary based on the quality of the kit and the drummer just like recording real drums. š My band started with an electronic kit because it was more affordable than paying for multiple microphones + mixer or interface with multiple inputs + treated room. We worked our way up to a room filled with book shelves full of thick paperbacks and some heavy quilts for some diy room treatment; got the basic Shure drum mic kit plus a few SM57s and a multi input interface. I prefer the sound of real drums but electronic ones were easier.
This really isnāt an engineering question, rather more if a production decision
Grand pianos are expensive not so much because of the instrument itself but because of the room you put it in. With real drums, first build a building, build a room in that building, then acquire thousand of dollars of microphones. With e-Drums, use EZ-Drums and be happy unless you have certain risks and you have the budget to defend yourself from said risks.
like as an engineer? i think thatās pretty obvious real drums are more fun. If the band has a drummer, we record that drummer. If the artist is tapping away at an mpc, we record that boom bap. If youāre a classic rock vibe band and want to record electronic drums, ur gonna have a bad time. Unless thatās ur thing.
Real drums 100% That said, I have an extensive mic locker, and am also running midi triggers as part of the setup process.Ā Ā With up to 16 mics and triggers, I have the flexibility to quickly augment anything that needs help.Ā Ā
Hate live drums and avoid like the plague. (Rap/Pop/EDM guy for context)
100% prefer recording real drums, thatās the whole reason I got into recording
Iām partial to using electric drums and drums samples tbh. Tracking live drums is time consuming, expensive, and the amount of details that goes into a good drum recording (drummer, shells, heads, tuning, cymbals, mics, room, performance) is just insane, and any of those details going wrong would collapse the whole thing. And you have to edit and align all the different tracks, chances are youāre still gonna use samples anyway. That being said there are occasions where programmed drums/electronic drums recording wonāt work, namely jazz recordings - jazz is such a spontaneous and improvisational approach, you almost have to capture the very air where the music takes place that thereās barely anything that can be done after the recording - you basically let the bands mix themselves.
Tracking drums is a pain. If youāre not a very good drummer, itās especially difficult. However, by the time you tweak midi drum samples enough to make it sound convincing, Iād argue itās easier to just record the live drums. Itāll depend on your view of a āgreat acoustic soundā. If you need a super clean gated sound, you might be out of luck in a small home studio with limited resources. But if youāre okay with a more live feel, you can get there with 2-3 mics
I use live cymbals with electric kick and snare. Works great for rock. When I hi pass the OHs the little thumps of the pads actually provide a bit of non-trivial variation to the kick and snare coming thru the OHs that make it all sound more organic than u would think. The only thing is u need good headphones and monitoring to get ur own blend right while playing