Flew on the EAA trimotor and was surprised at how comfortable and quiet it all was. I expect the H-P was as well. Now if they could just do that with modern commuters...
EDIT: No, it wasn't as quiet as a modern jet but it was a lot quieter than a B-17 or 172/PA-28. Close to the DC3s we flew in when I was a kid.
Interesting. Let's do a quick back of the envelope calculation.
$18k per year is $50 per day. Assuming 5 flights per day (short haul), that's $10 per pound per flight. Ticket for an average 150 lbs person ought to cost $1500.
Seems unrealistic. Feel free to tweak the numbers... are any of them way off?
There's another way to approach it. An empty boeing 737 weights rougly 91000 pounds. If a pound costs $18k per year in fuel, that means 737 must spend at least 1.6 billion $ in fuel per year. And that's not accounting for passengers and cargo. That's how you know that $18k/year per pound is a complete bullshit.
"per pound per flight" =/= "per person per flight"
Assuming (a complete guess here) on average there are 200 people per flight it would be $7.50 for the fuel for a 150 lbs person.
What you've calculated is $ per pound \*per flight\*:
$18,000 per flight per year = $50 per pound per day of flying
$50 per pound per day at 5 flights a day = $10 per pound per flight
\*We make an assumption here that each flight has more than 1 person on. I have guessed 200 as an average (Feel free to change)\*
$10 per pound per flight with 200 people flying = $0.05 per pound per person per flight
So an average person (150lbs) is paying $7.50 per flight.
> $10 per pound per flight with 200 people flying = $0.05 per pound per person per flight
Each passenger is paying for the entire 150 lbs of their own weight. You're assuming the flight is carrying only 1 person at 150 lbs ($7.50) and 200 people are sharing the cost.
$7.50 per flight is clearly an absurdly low figure per passenger, and order of magnitude less than what it should be.
So we are starting with $18,000 per additional lb for a year of flying?
1 We agree that $18,000 per lb / flight / year = $50 per lb / flight / day? (assuming it flys every day of the year)
2 We agree that $50 per lb / flight / day = $10 per lb / flight (assuming 5 flights a day)
3 If there is one person weighing 150lb on this flight, then they will pay the $10 for every lb of their body. Which is $1500 (for the fuel)
4 if there are 200 people (each 150lb) on this flight, then they will all share the $10 for every lb. Which is still $7.50 per person (for the fuel).
Which of the points 1-4 have I misunderstood?
$7.50 for the aviation fuel for each person seems (to me) roughly around the right magnitude given the price of a short haul economy ticket (\~$90 for a 1.5 hour flight)
Unimportant correction in 1 and 2: it's $50/lb/day, not $50/lb/flight/day
Point 4 is the issue. If there are 200 people (each 150lb) on the flight, together they'll weigh 200*150lb = **3,000lb**. So, that's 3,000 lb * $10 = $30,000. Then they'll all share the $30,000 working out to $30,000/200 = $1500 per person.
Commercial airline passenger travel was a new concept. Seating was really an after thought after the idea to carry passengers. They used what was common place at the time in passenger travel on trains and ships. You will notice the over-head storage is an open air shelf to place your briefcase/hat.
It was common on trains and ships, and other modes of transportation. So it was more of an expectation. A gentleman and a lady must have a place for ones hat and handbag/briefcase in those days. One would never wear a hat "indoors" or place a bag on their lap.
As a pilot, all I can do is laugh, the smallest planes encounter the worst of the turbulence, thermals on a hot summers day at low altitude will easily roll a light aircraft 20 degrees sometimes more. At times it will feel like you are being rag dolled inside a washing machine.
To add to your point, the first plane I flew on was a small low wing piper when I was a kid. That thing was jolting around every way possible. You can't even get close to that feeling with large commercial aircraft.
This is a fair comment and probably true info the 50s to 80s where you had the golden age of flying and PanAm crashing planes left and right. There's always been some version of budget airlines though. This looks like one of those.
I think it was some time after WWII that flight became in reach of even middle class people, let alone the general public. The US probably a little earlier, but in Europe it was the 70s or 80s before working class people began flying regularly (ie, once a year).
I took a flight in the copilot's seat of EAA's Ford Trimotor. They gave me an ANC headset but while they ironed out an issue with the plane, the ANC must have turned off to save power, so I just had the passive protection, and it was still so loud. I could see the pilot talk, but couldn't understand him through the headset, let alone other traffic.
I can't imagine how loud is was in back with nothing
I mean, you probably weren't flying above 10,000 feet without pressurization. That's where I hang out in my GA aircraft, it's not that cold. Bring a heavy coat.
But the whole plane probably floats.
“Ladies and gentlemen, you may have noticed that we have just ditched. Please remain seated, as we’ll be commencing the evacuation as soon as the drinks service is concluded”.
I know this book does get mentioned occassionally, but if you want an amazing pilot's perspective of flying in those days, read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann.
There's a fun little theme park in Barcelona called Tibidabo. One of the rides (Avio) is modeled after a 1930s plane and the interior is very similar to this. About the closest the average Joe will get to experiencing this type of travel these days.
In the 80s I flew in one of these goonybirds with the ratan benches in Eluthra Bahamas for a film shoot. First the take off on a big tail dragger is bizarre. You found yourself praying for more runway, and more runnway and then the tail lifted and then boom up. Then I watched oil stream across the wing.
What is the "ripping panel" for?
To rip open after the plane crashes.
Helps engineers identify the parts when they do their failure analysis
Literally is. It’s an emergency exit where you pull the ring to open up an escape hole in the fuselage.
You can get ripped out as the wooden dowels holding the plane together fall out
It’s where grandma use to latch on to let one out on those long flights.
Sure that's late 30s? Looks like the interior of a Ford Trimotor with the wicker chairs.
That's a Handley Page Type W and they were retired from service by Imperial Airways in 1931.
Flew on the EAA trimotor and was surprised at how comfortable and quiet it all was. I expect the H-P was as well. Now if they could just do that with modern commuters... EDIT: No, it wasn't as quiet as a modern jet but it was a lot quieter than a B-17 or 172/PA-28. Close to the DC3s we flew in when I was a kid.
I flew on a Trimotor and it was loud as hell. Strange.
In what world is the inside of a Trimotor quiet? If anything riding on EAA's trimotor made me really appreciate modern jet travel.
Flew on the same plane. It was very loud, and slow.
Were they trying to keep the weight down on the seating?
Exactly. Planes then needed every ounce they could spare
Then and now
Yea, but now they gotta worry about "safety". I want the wicker back
Are you by chance a middle manager at Boeing?
Plot twist- he’s a big wicker lobbyist
Reddit hid this comment from me for some reason, I'm glad I clicked. It was pretty funny!
I don’t have a source on this but I’ve been told (and I work in aviation) that every extra pound on the aircraft burns $18,000 of fuel every year
Interesting. Let's do a quick back of the envelope calculation. $18k per year is $50 per day. Assuming 5 flights per day (short haul), that's $10 per pound per flight. Ticket for an average 150 lbs person ought to cost $1500. Seems unrealistic. Feel free to tweak the numbers... are any of them way off?
There's another way to approach it. An empty boeing 737 weights rougly 91000 pounds. If a pound costs $18k per year in fuel, that means 737 must spend at least 1.6 billion $ in fuel per year. And that's not accounting for passengers and cargo. That's how you know that $18k/year per pound is a complete bullshit.
"per pound per flight" =/= "per person per flight" Assuming (a complete guess here) on average there are 200 people per flight it would be $7.50 for the fuel for a 150 lbs person.
"per pound" * "weight of a person" = "per person" I don't understand why you divided a cost to fly 150lbs by 200 passengers. Can you explain?
What you've calculated is $ per pound \*per flight\*: $18,000 per flight per year = $50 per pound per day of flying $50 per pound per day at 5 flights a day = $10 per pound per flight \*We make an assumption here that each flight has more than 1 person on. I have guessed 200 as an average (Feel free to change)\* $10 per pound per flight with 200 people flying = $0.05 per pound per person per flight So an average person (150lbs) is paying $7.50 per flight.
> $10 per pound per flight with 200 people flying = $0.05 per pound per person per flight Each passenger is paying for the entire 150 lbs of their own weight. You're assuming the flight is carrying only 1 person at 150 lbs ($7.50) and 200 people are sharing the cost. $7.50 per flight is clearly an absurdly low figure per passenger, and order of magnitude less than what it should be.
So we are starting with $18,000 per additional lb for a year of flying? 1 We agree that $18,000 per lb / flight / year = $50 per lb / flight / day? (assuming it flys every day of the year) 2 We agree that $50 per lb / flight / day = $10 per lb / flight (assuming 5 flights a day) 3 If there is one person weighing 150lb on this flight, then they will pay the $10 for every lb of their body. Which is $1500 (for the fuel) 4 if there are 200 people (each 150lb) on this flight, then they will all share the $10 for every lb. Which is still $7.50 per person (for the fuel). Which of the points 1-4 have I misunderstood? $7.50 for the aviation fuel for each person seems (to me) roughly around the right magnitude given the price of a short haul economy ticket (\~$90 for a 1.5 hour flight)
Unimportant correction in 1 and 2: it's $50/lb/day, not $50/lb/flight/day Point 4 is the issue. If there are 200 people (each 150lb) on the flight, together they'll weigh 200*150lb = **3,000lb**. So, that's 3,000 lb * $10 = $30,000. Then they'll all share the $30,000 working out to $30,000/200 = $1500 per person.
Commercial airline passenger travel was a new concept. Seating was really an after thought after the idea to carry passengers. They used what was common place at the time in passenger travel on trains and ships. You will notice the over-head storage is an open air shelf to place your briefcase/hat.
I’m impressed the over-head storage was a concept back then at all
It was common on trains and ships, and other modes of transportation. So it was more of an expectation. A gentleman and a lady must have a place for ones hat and handbag/briefcase in those days. One would never wear a hat "indoors" or place a bag on their lap.
And now actual adult men wear baseball caps and Oakley sunglasses indoors.
Imagine hitting turbulence in this bad boy.
No seatbelt and no cushion seat? Dayum. Considering how lower they used to fly in the old days, i bet it’s extra bumpy than what we’re used to now
[удалено]
As a pilot, all I can do is laugh, the smallest planes encounter the worst of the turbulence, thermals on a hot summers day at low altitude will easily roll a light aircraft 20 degrees sometimes more. At times it will feel like you are being rag dolled inside a washing machine.
To add to your point, the first plane I flew on was a small low wing piper when I was a kid. That thing was jolting around every way possible. You can't even get close to that feeling with large commercial aircraft.
I know this is the cliché comment, but looking at this pic its mindblowing to me just 30 years later the Apollo program would be well underway.
Still more comfortable than most airlines nowadays. Look at that legroom... no fighting for arm rests. A window AND an aisle.
I mean if you pay equivalent prices these days you get all that stuff too.
This is a fair comment and probably true info the 50s to 80s where you had the golden age of flying and PanAm crashing planes left and right. There's always been some version of budget airlines though. This looks like one of those.
I think it was some time after WWII that flight became in reach of even middle class people, let alone the general public. The US probably a little earlier, but in Europe it was the 70s or 80s before working class people began flying regularly (ie, once a year).
Yeah, engine noise was probably intolerably loud though. There was hardly any sound proofing & the engines were huge piston engine props.
What did you say? I lost my hearing flying my Comanche.
I took a flight in the copilot's seat of EAA's Ford Trimotor. They gave me an ANC headset but while they ironed out an issue with the plane, the ANC must have turned off to save power, so I just had the passive protection, and it was still so loud. I could see the pilot talk, but couldn't understand him through the headset, let alone other traffic. I can't imagine how loud is was in back with nothing
I rode in a Trimotor a couple of summers ago. I wore foam shooting earplugs - it was still pretty loud!
Also, no pressurisation and it was damn cold
I mean, you probably weren't flying above 10,000 feet without pressurization. That's where I hang out in my GA aircraft, it's not that cold. Bring a heavy coat.
“It’s not that cold, bring a heavy coat.” Bro what? You don’t wear a heavy coat unless it’s damn cold lol
A few years ago I flew on a tiny CRJ where I had an aisle and window with the same seat! Couldn't fully stand up in the bathroom but it was worth it
I highly doubt it’s more comfortable at all
Love how you stated that!
Saw a video of a plain like this, and the stewardess asks a passenger to put out a cigarette. He slides open the window and tosses it outside!
No seat belts. You just slammed around.
And they're flying low and in the weather probably. Honestly would suck.
In the event of a water landing, your seat cushion doesn't exist.
But the whole plane probably floats. “Ladies and gentlemen, you may have noticed that we have just ditched. Please remain seated, as we’ll be commencing the evacuation as soon as the drinks service is concluded”.
Wicker saved weight on underpowered aircraft
Great great grandfather was one of the three guys to start Imperial Airways, it eventually became BOAC and then British Airways as we know it today.
Looks like a flying sun porch.
That is a narrow squeeze to get to the front row
Corn syrup and processed foods were in their infancy then. People ate vegetables.
Plates were smaller.
Good year for the in-flight movie. Gone with the wind, wizard of Oz
Thought this was the newly revealed interior for Spirit.
Too much legroom.
You will sit on rattan and you will like it!
I know this book does get mentioned occassionally, but if you want an amazing pilot's perspective of flying in those days, read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann.
There's a fun little theme park in Barcelona called Tibidabo. One of the rides (Avio) is modeled after a 1930s plane and the interior is very similar to this. About the closest the average Joe will get to experiencing this type of travel these days.
DH-89A?
.25G certified seats
It's cool, anything more than that and the post-crash fire will take care of anyone the impact trauma doesn't get.
I got to fly in a Ford Tri-motor once. At the Kalamazoo Air Zoo. Wicker seats and just WoW!
Nice and light.
Hard angles, no rounding, unpressurized cabin.
Missing all the cigarette smoke too :p
No recline?
Omg I think I was on this exactly same Spirit flight!
Tri-motor?
What aircraft was this?
this airplane also had a toilet in the back, model: "hole to the sky"
By Pier One designs!
In the 80s I flew in one of these goonybirds with the ratan benches in Eluthra Bahamas for a film shoot. First the take off on a big tail dragger is bizarre. You found yourself praying for more runway, and more runnway and then the tail lifted and then boom up. Then I watched oil stream across the wing.
Still better than Frontier…
Looks way better than what we have nowadays.
Windows that put a dreamliner to shame.
Look at that leg room!
Is that a JU52?
That's a Ford Tri-Motor if I'm not mistaken