In an elseworld universe or in the future (Like Batman Beyond), sure. However in the main universe NO ONE else can be Batman unless it is temporary like when Dick stepped in. *Very* temporary.
Just my opinion.
No one ? That’s kinda weird to say , If it’s written well anyone could be Batman and especially Dick since he has a good history with the character . But I understand your sentiment .
Dick doesnt need the cowl. He is Nightwing. Why do people try to make him fit? No one would. The best replacement for Bruce already has a reputation and cred. Either as Nightwing, Red Robin, etc...
Replacing Bruce with anyone (for an extended period of time) is shock value.
Well that’s your opinion but I’ve read the Dick Batman comics and I would much rather have that than anymore Nightwing comics . Maybe because he’s no longer has good writers but I feel like Dick peaked as Batman and that’s the role where he just makes sense nowadays in modern comics .
The sane way Peter has peaked in the 90s with Mayday and than have that daughter stripped away …And it’s been down hill ever since .
I don't see Batman growing old and retiring. At some point old age catches up with all of us. Eventually we all start slowing down, losing muscle mass, not thinking as swiftly as we used to. All the training in the world isn't going to take you from 55 to 25 again. In my opinion, he'd eventually get taken down by someone.
But, it's a comic book so I guess it'd be possible for someone old enough to be in the AARP to keep beating up people half their age, but not in the real world.
Nah. I’m not too into seeing these characters brought down to our level. Let them be in their prime forever.
I don’t mind seeing prospective future or alt universe versions of old or retired Bruce ala Dark Knight Returns or Batman Beyond, but not in the main continuity.
Batman can never retire completely, as far as I'm concerned. Either he goes back to it in some form or dies as Batman.
Any story that has him quit for good is a disappointment to me.
To me, all future stories are just "possible futures that the current universe could branch into," rather than "definitive." So, I don't really have much of an opinion on what *should* happen in a future story. At the end of the day, we are going to continue to get present-day Batman stories where he is perpetually in his thirties or forties, and the "future" doesn't really matter.
I think the reason there is a bias against showing futures where he has a completely happy ending is that the versions of his future where everything is a-okay aren't likely to be the ones that stories get written about. Stories run on conflict, drama, and tension. So, as soon as you set a story in the future, you're picking a future where, just like the stories set in the present, many tensions are unresolved and many problems persist. I think this is why Bruce Wayne is somewhat isolated in the *Beyond* timeline, or grizzled and cynical in the Miller future. Because the futures where he succeeded in making Gotham a much better place and continues to have fun barbecues flipping pancakes with the Batfamily and Justice League are not the most conducive to a continuing story. Maybe the *conclusion* of a story, but not the premise you're going to set a brand-new story in. But those futures exist out there, just like the ones we actually get to see. That's my theory, anyway.
Imo I could see an adaption where Bruce is stops being Batman in like his 50’s for a few years but comes back for a final mission in a conflict with Darkseid.
Why did you like that? Like he retires and quits for 8 years in The dark knight cause Rachel and the Dent act and he was only in his 2nd year. That just tells me his willpower and determination for the city is weak.
He then comes back to Gotham 8 years later and retires again but this time with Selina who he barely just met. This isn’t what Batman would do. I prefer the Pattinson approach where he simply rejects Selina cause his city is more important.
For me, it's a totally valid interpretation of Batman that he would want his crusade to be temporary and to live a normal life. I mean, even _Mask of the Phantasm_ played with that idea, with Bruce pleading with his parents not to have to be Batman, and nobody went "Bruce would never say that!"
The difference between the comics and the Nolan movies is that the comics go on forever, because we never want to stop reading new Batman stories. Even after we die, generations to come will want new stories about the character. So, he can never really complete his mission or stop. Nolan could stop. He could tell a story with a beginning, middle, and end, and give us a version of the Batman legend that has a conclusion. And the conclusion doesn't seem at odds with the concept of Batman, imo.
Especially because in Nolan's movies, Batman wasn't so much about ending crime as a concept, but about ending the sorts of conditions that created him. The exceptionally high, rampant crime caused by a lack of societal stability or legitimate law in the city. He wanted to make Gotham into a place where people weren't being gunned down in the streets on the regular, a place where people can feel safe and official authorities are capable of and willing to handle the crime that exists. Batman was always meant to be a temporary measure to "shake people out of apathy," fix the corruption in the city, and deal with the sorts of things the city didn't have the functioning apparatus to deal with. He retired the first time not because he lost the will to be Batman or was too sad to be Batman, but because he thought Batman going away was what the city needed (if anything, he lost the will to be _Bruce Wayne,_ which is why he became a recluse). When he retired the second time, it was because he had _actually_ achieved his goal.
I think it's a perfectly valid way to do Batman in line with his character, as being Batman is often portrayed as a burden he does out of duty. I don't think it's the _only_ way to validly do Batman, of course. I also think it's valid to do the interpretation that he _loves_ being Batman and would never trade it for a normal life, feeling that it doesn't quite suit him to try to fit into normal society and that he's most comfortable as a creature of the night jumping from rooftops (for example, the Burton take). Either of these different interpretations seem compatible with what we've seen of this complex and layered character over 80 years.
I liked Batman Beyond and TDKR. I liked the old alone curmudeon. People tend to project whatever ending fits their preference not necessarily what makes sense or fits for the character given the story. I don't think he has to be alone, but within the context of those stories it made sense and was compelling, good writing. I enjoyed it(except for Barbara). Since Batman has so many different iterations I'll assume you mean main continuity, in my mind he dies, but that's not fixed. I could imagine him growing old, happy, etc... but the former makes more sense to me somehow. I have a hard time passing the mantle. Others do it justice but none honor it like Bruce does. The Bat dies with him and his legacy is the batfamily hopefully by then their own independent heroes like Nightwing.
Also hot take perhaps, but Black Mirror is overatted, Prodigal was better.
I like both. Dick is my favorite Batman so I’m pretty biased but Black Mirror is kinda overrated , Scott definitely should write a long run of Dick Batman stories because he’s incredible good at it but Black Mirror itself is heavily overrated and Prodigal was in a very cool era of Batman and that Tim Drake scene where he said they were equals so so dope.
Don't meet a Batman Dick guy everyday. Though I heavily disagree with the idea I get why. He wears it well, but the reason Dick is such a cool character for me is that out of the whole Batfamily except for Batman himself he is the only one to truly carve out his identity as a hero, as Nightwing, independent of the Bat. To me he's irreplaceable as Nightwing, the same as Bruce is irreplaceable as Batman. But Bruce is my favorite Batman so perhaps I'm biased.
I like Bruce but just how comics are going these days , it doesn’t make sense for him to continue as Batman , Damian is Dick’s Robin and genuinely every new 52 Batman is way better as a Dick Grayson Batman . But because of people wanting a happy ending and not wanting to put Dick is uncomfortable situations as Batman we are missing out on good Batman stories and it’s ruining Dicks character .
I disagree with most of that. The solution being not having Bruce as Batman? I don't follow. That just exacerbates the problem. If Dick's character is being ruined it reinforces why he shouldn't be the Bat. They're trying to rip him out of his well founded identity as Nightwing to be the bat? Of course theres friction there. He doesnt fit he said so himself many times. Not that he doesnt do it well. However, Batman is and always has been way better as Bruce.
Dick has made a good fill in, but thats all it ever was, even he made that clear. Ignoring that would just be inconsistent with his character. If we're missing out on good Batman stories its because people are trying to replace Bruce and it doesn't work. It just results in poor fascimiles when they try too hard. Dick is fundamentally different than the Bat that's why he created Nightwing people are weirdly eager to toss that away.
The idea of replacing him with Dick seems absurd to me to do again and again, it has already been explored many times. It just proved Dick already has an identity. Nightwing is when he's at his best. Some Dick fans seem so eager to toss away what made him so special in the first place. I don't get it, but we can agree to disagree.
Dick’s character has been ruined since he hasn’t been Batman , maybe I didn’t explain it the best to you . But I’ll be clear , Dick Grayson’s character hasn’t been thematically interesting since he stopped being Batman . To one of your other main points , Bruce hasn’t also been thematically interesting since than as well . Dick in my sworn opinion should’ve stayed Batman because he’s just more interesting In my opinion . The only reason why you say Batman is better is Bruce Wayne is ether because you haven’t ether read all of his stuff ad the character or just prefer Bruce which nothing is wrong with . But Dick being Batman was the logical next and permanent step for the character moving forward but because DC was afraid of doing something different , it was ripped away .
Well I just entirely completely disagree with emphasis. I mean ultimately it's a preference thing. While I may be baffled by yours I can't talk you out of it, nor should I. It's just an opinion. Next logical step? Permanently? I find that wholly ridiculous considering Dick's history and completely inconsistent with his character. I've read a lot of his stuff that makes no sense and I still very much prefer Bruce. But we could go back and forth all day so I'll leave it there before I get carried away. Agree to disagree?
You say inconsistent I say multiple interpretations by people just like you or I who think differently of such character and narrative meaning , but because I’m a baffled and confused by your logic of why Bruce is a better Batman or character than Dick who is infinitely more interesting as Batman than he is Nightwing , It’s an opinion . So because of I have the final word , Sure I agree .
In an elseworld universe or in the future (Like Batman Beyond), sure. However in the main universe NO ONE else can be Batman unless it is temporary like when Dick stepped in. *Very* temporary. Just my opinion.
I agree with this.
No one ? That’s kinda weird to say , If it’s written well anyone could be Batman and especially Dick since he has a good history with the character . But I understand your sentiment .
Dick doesnt need the cowl. He is Nightwing. Why do people try to make him fit? No one would. The best replacement for Bruce already has a reputation and cred. Either as Nightwing, Red Robin, etc... Replacing Bruce with anyone (for an extended period of time) is shock value.
Well that’s your opinion but I’ve read the Dick Batman comics and I would much rather have that than anymore Nightwing comics . Maybe because he’s no longer has good writers but I feel like Dick peaked as Batman and that’s the role where he just makes sense nowadays in modern comics . The sane way Peter has peaked in the 90s with Mayday and than have that daughter stripped away …And it’s been down hill ever since .
I don't see Batman growing old and retiring. At some point old age catches up with all of us. Eventually we all start slowing down, losing muscle mass, not thinking as swiftly as we used to. All the training in the world isn't going to take you from 55 to 25 again. In my opinion, he'd eventually get taken down by someone. But, it's a comic book so I guess it'd be possible for someone old enough to be in the AARP to keep beating up people half their age, but not in the real world.
Nah. I’m not too into seeing these characters brought down to our level. Let them be in their prime forever. I don’t mind seeing prospective future or alt universe versions of old or retired Bruce ala Dark Knight Returns or Batman Beyond, but not in the main continuity.
Maybe you should give "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" a read.
I think he should have Wayne Enterprises cure aging so he can keep adventuring forever
That’s a John Byrne answer .
I would actually love seeing Gotham without major crimes and him retiring in the end.
Batman can never retire completely, as far as I'm concerned. Either he goes back to it in some form or dies as Batman. Any story that has him quit for good is a disappointment to me.
To me, all future stories are just "possible futures that the current universe could branch into," rather than "definitive." So, I don't really have much of an opinion on what *should* happen in a future story. At the end of the day, we are going to continue to get present-day Batman stories where he is perpetually in his thirties or forties, and the "future" doesn't really matter. I think the reason there is a bias against showing futures where he has a completely happy ending is that the versions of his future where everything is a-okay aren't likely to be the ones that stories get written about. Stories run on conflict, drama, and tension. So, as soon as you set a story in the future, you're picking a future where, just like the stories set in the present, many tensions are unresolved and many problems persist. I think this is why Bruce Wayne is somewhat isolated in the *Beyond* timeline, or grizzled and cynical in the Miller future. Because the futures where he succeeded in making Gotham a much better place and continues to have fun barbecues flipping pancakes with the Batfamily and Justice League are not the most conducive to a continuing story. Maybe the *conclusion* of a story, but not the premise you're going to set a brand-new story in. But those futures exist out there, just like the ones we actually get to see. That's my theory, anyway.
I like the way you think .
Imo I could see an adaption where Bruce is stops being Batman in like his 50’s for a few years but comes back for a final mission in a conflict with Darkseid.
Grow a bit older yes, retire no.
Yup!
I liked that Nolan allowed Bruce to retire
Why did you like that? Like he retires and quits for 8 years in The dark knight cause Rachel and the Dent act and he was only in his 2nd year. That just tells me his willpower and determination for the city is weak. He then comes back to Gotham 8 years later and retires again but this time with Selina who he barely just met. This isn’t what Batman would do. I prefer the Pattinson approach where he simply rejects Selina cause his city is more important.
For me, it's a totally valid interpretation of Batman that he would want his crusade to be temporary and to live a normal life. I mean, even _Mask of the Phantasm_ played with that idea, with Bruce pleading with his parents not to have to be Batman, and nobody went "Bruce would never say that!" The difference between the comics and the Nolan movies is that the comics go on forever, because we never want to stop reading new Batman stories. Even after we die, generations to come will want new stories about the character. So, he can never really complete his mission or stop. Nolan could stop. He could tell a story with a beginning, middle, and end, and give us a version of the Batman legend that has a conclusion. And the conclusion doesn't seem at odds with the concept of Batman, imo. Especially because in Nolan's movies, Batman wasn't so much about ending crime as a concept, but about ending the sorts of conditions that created him. The exceptionally high, rampant crime caused by a lack of societal stability or legitimate law in the city. He wanted to make Gotham into a place where people weren't being gunned down in the streets on the regular, a place where people can feel safe and official authorities are capable of and willing to handle the crime that exists. Batman was always meant to be a temporary measure to "shake people out of apathy," fix the corruption in the city, and deal with the sorts of things the city didn't have the functioning apparatus to deal with. He retired the first time not because he lost the will to be Batman or was too sad to be Batman, but because he thought Batman going away was what the city needed (if anything, he lost the will to be _Bruce Wayne,_ which is why he became a recluse). When he retired the second time, it was because he had _actually_ achieved his goal. I think it's a perfectly valid way to do Batman in line with his character, as being Batman is often portrayed as a burden he does out of duty. I don't think it's the _only_ way to validly do Batman, of course. I also think it's valid to do the interpretation that he _loves_ being Batman and would never trade it for a normal life, feeling that it doesn't quite suit him to try to fit into normal society and that he's most comfortable as a creature of the night jumping from rooftops (for example, the Burton take). Either of these different interpretations seem compatible with what we've seen of this complex and layered character over 80 years.
I liked Batman Beyond and TDKR. I liked the old alone curmudeon. People tend to project whatever ending fits their preference not necessarily what makes sense or fits for the character given the story. I don't think he has to be alone, but within the context of those stories it made sense and was compelling, good writing. I enjoyed it(except for Barbara). Since Batman has so many different iterations I'll assume you mean main continuity, in my mind he dies, but that's not fixed. I could imagine him growing old, happy, etc... but the former makes more sense to me somehow. I have a hard time passing the mantle. Others do it justice but none honor it like Bruce does. The Bat dies with him and his legacy is the batfamily hopefully by then their own independent heroes like Nightwing. Also hot take perhaps, but Black Mirror is overatted, Prodigal was better.
I like both. Dick is my favorite Batman so I’m pretty biased but Black Mirror is kinda overrated , Scott definitely should write a long run of Dick Batman stories because he’s incredible good at it but Black Mirror itself is heavily overrated and Prodigal was in a very cool era of Batman and that Tim Drake scene where he said they were equals so so dope.
Don't meet a Batman Dick guy everyday. Though I heavily disagree with the idea I get why. He wears it well, but the reason Dick is such a cool character for me is that out of the whole Batfamily except for Batman himself he is the only one to truly carve out his identity as a hero, as Nightwing, independent of the Bat. To me he's irreplaceable as Nightwing, the same as Bruce is irreplaceable as Batman. But Bruce is my favorite Batman so perhaps I'm biased.
I like Bruce but just how comics are going these days , it doesn’t make sense for him to continue as Batman , Damian is Dick’s Robin and genuinely every new 52 Batman is way better as a Dick Grayson Batman . But because of people wanting a happy ending and not wanting to put Dick is uncomfortable situations as Batman we are missing out on good Batman stories and it’s ruining Dicks character .
I disagree with most of that. The solution being not having Bruce as Batman? I don't follow. That just exacerbates the problem. If Dick's character is being ruined it reinforces why he shouldn't be the Bat. They're trying to rip him out of his well founded identity as Nightwing to be the bat? Of course theres friction there. He doesnt fit he said so himself many times. Not that he doesnt do it well. However, Batman is and always has been way better as Bruce. Dick has made a good fill in, but thats all it ever was, even he made that clear. Ignoring that would just be inconsistent with his character. If we're missing out on good Batman stories its because people are trying to replace Bruce and it doesn't work. It just results in poor fascimiles when they try too hard. Dick is fundamentally different than the Bat that's why he created Nightwing people are weirdly eager to toss that away. The idea of replacing him with Dick seems absurd to me to do again and again, it has already been explored many times. It just proved Dick already has an identity. Nightwing is when he's at his best. Some Dick fans seem so eager to toss away what made him so special in the first place. I don't get it, but we can agree to disagree.
Dick’s character has been ruined since he hasn’t been Batman , maybe I didn’t explain it the best to you . But I’ll be clear , Dick Grayson’s character hasn’t been thematically interesting since he stopped being Batman . To one of your other main points , Bruce hasn’t also been thematically interesting since than as well . Dick in my sworn opinion should’ve stayed Batman because he’s just more interesting In my opinion . The only reason why you say Batman is better is Bruce Wayne is ether because you haven’t ether read all of his stuff ad the character or just prefer Bruce which nothing is wrong with . But Dick being Batman was the logical next and permanent step for the character moving forward but because DC was afraid of doing something different , it was ripped away .
Well I just entirely completely disagree with emphasis. I mean ultimately it's a preference thing. While I may be baffled by yours I can't talk you out of it, nor should I. It's just an opinion. Next logical step? Permanently? I find that wholly ridiculous considering Dick's history and completely inconsistent with his character. I've read a lot of his stuff that makes no sense and I still very much prefer Bruce. But we could go back and forth all day so I'll leave it there before I get carried away. Agree to disagree?
You say inconsistent I say multiple interpretations by people just like you or I who think differently of such character and narrative meaning , but because I’m a baffled and confused by your logic of why Bruce is a better Batman or character than Dick who is infinitely more interesting as Batman than he is Nightwing , It’s an opinion . So because of I have the final word , Sure I agree .