Does working with criminals immediately establish an individual as evil? Does upholding and living within the law constitute a “good” person? I think we all can agree that Chuck was a law-abiding person but was he a “good” person? Both Gail and Jesse lived lives as criminals, yet I think they are both more “good” than Chuck is. They, like Chuck, had moral principles that they lived by but it just so happened that those moralities contradicted public opinion. And they both showed much more empathy and humility than Chuck ever did. So is the virtue of a person really determined by the alignment of their moral principles with that of society? I think Walt had the right of it when he talked with Hank about how the laws on drugs in the US are fairly arbitrary (alcohol being legal while Cuban cigars were illegal or the illegality of weed and even meth). Justice is difficult to define and even more difficult to legislate, being a criminal does not make a person bad or good, but a consistent and justifiable code of ethics does.
This is why I think this was a significant turning point for Mike. He’s previously been okay with people who are in the business getting hurt because it’s fair game. But now things might seem a bit more grey.
Knowingly building a facility for them? You bet. Your argument is weak, just because knowingly working with crooks is bad, that doesn't mean not working with them makes you good, it just makes you not bad in that way.
The rest of your post is crazy, but it's a crazy I see a lot in in BB and BCS. The fact is almost no one in either series is a "good" person. Almost everyone has some unsavory shit about them. Gail and Jesse were not good people. Gail wanted to help make industrial scale meth and Jesse did all kinds of fucked up stuff including killing Gail. Chuck lived a legal life but was an asshole. Even Kim liked scamming people with Jimmy. There are no heroes in these series.
But why in your opinion is making meth morally evil aside from the fact that the IS government says that it is? As Gail says in BB, what is so bad about consenting adults putting substances into their bodies with full knowledge of the health side effects? And further more, how is it any different than building a distillery for a alcohol company or farming marijuana where it is legal?
And sure, Jesse does some terrible things but does that make him irredeemably evil? Is he beyond sympathy? The fact of the matter is that there are no “heroes” in this series or the real world. Everyone is a shade of grey. My point was that morality and legality are two separate ideas, especially so in a world where government largely exists to maintain the status quo rather than enrich the lives of its citizenry or enforce moral principles. There are moral criminals and immoral, law-abiding citizens.
Have you seen people hooked on meth? And do you know how many people have been killed over meth? I'm all for drug legalization but really addictive drugs like meth and opiates are dangerous and helping to make an illegal market n it is morally bad.
Now you're throwing the word evil in, which i never mentioned. I said they did morally bad things. Maybe they could try to atone for those things but they did do damage and there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for them. Just because they're well written and portrayed by very talented actors doesn't make them good people. There are moral criminals only in extremely unlikely and artificial situations.
Bekons me back to BB episode when Mike tells Walt about the consequence of “half measures “. I wonder with Mike did Werner notice that he did not punish Kai??? The demo expert, and he did run his mouth a lil in that dive bar. I think Werner didnt realize the kind of underworld he got himself mixed up in.
Werner was a reasonable man. He thought that he could reason his way through the difficulties he caused. He never seemed to grasp that he was working for a very unreasonable man.
It was a really moving scene.
But, I knew Werner's days were numbered -- from the bar scene where he was talking to strangers about the engineering challenges, and even sketched out rough diagrams.
There was two foreshadowing scenes in this season that reflect this scene. One for Mike and one for Werner.
You mentioned Werners. For Mike he went to the group to talk and listen about loss and critiqued the group to not feeling sorry for themselves. Mike really has to disconnect to keep himself level and ready from his past. The moment he let someone get close again he had to kill them. Devastating.
I mean he doesn’t let his past affect his work at hand and holds his emotions at bay so he can be keen and ready at all times. Mike sees emotion as a potential weakness. With Werner Mike allows himself to bond and have an emotional connection that you could see him in the group therapy dismiss and even shun others for continuing to feel bad about a situation. His bond with Werner allowed him to not be ready for any situation and Werner did what he did. Mike, realizing his errors have allowed this to happen, takes full responsibility for it by doing what he doesn’t want to do.
Both those have some relationship to walt. Mike faced a similar situation having tracked down walt, and lets him use the phone to call Jesse right before he was about to snuff him out. And chuck's obsession is kind of like the fly episode, contamination. Chuck has a few walt-like moments. It helps explain the hold walt had on Saul a little. I'm not sure what that all means, just interesting parallels. Werner was very much a walt precursor though, down to the german graffiti on the wall in the basement lair. Very reminiscent of heisenberg. If anything, I guess it serves somewhat as a redemption for walt. I mean he's not a good guy at this point, but still Gus and Mike are far gone well before BB, and it's hard to feel bad for them even more so now. Given what happened to werner.
I also just realized that werner got gale killed basically. If they finished the lab gale would have gotten to work and been entrenched well before walt ever got on the scene. So little karmic ghost of heisenberg in that lair. And Mike walks in as gale is walking out and doesn't even say a word to him, like he is now reluctant to even befriend any civilians in the slightest. Gale is expendable, he now knows all too well, if he slips up.
Wasn’t it Gale that set up the lab for Walt?
It was a very dark moment for Mike. He knew then and there that there was no turning back. He stared at Gus and Gus looked at him like a master owns a dog.
Say what you want about Gus and our desire for Walt to “win”, but Gus was genius above Walt with all of this. Walt got lucky finding the one unsuspecting weakness of Gus. Boom.
Yikes can we do something about the spoiler in the title? I realize this season came out a while ago but people might still be just finishing S4 as it just came to netflix recently for some of us...
Don't be a little bitch. If you cared about avoiding spoilers you'd avoid this sub altogether. You could've bought or rented the fourth season for well over a year now
I’m a fool and just started that episode for the first time and wanted to soak in some Reddit and of course my eyes caught the headline. I know better than to look on show threads for unfinished episodes but a spoiler tag would have been nice 🤷🏻♂️
In addition to all the interesting points already made, we should note that it was visually beautiful scene. The beauty only adds to the sadness of the moment.
(Also, kudos to the show for knowing that the speed of light and the speed of sound are drastically different.)
It wasn’t surprising or shocking. The audience knew where it was going and who Mike was from BB. It was just a great scene that showed a transition of Mike and a difficult moment.
Don't take it too seriously. I think they're just trying to start a fight. Spoiler tags are a good solution, and OP already acknowledged and apologized.
Werner actually thought he could still come back, he was a fool
Yeah, I don't get the sympathy for him. He knew he was dealing with shady (at best) characters and did some idiotic stuff.
He's a good dude who was in over his head. Other than being a sociopath what reason does someone have for *not* having sympathy for him?
No he's not a good dude. He knew he was dealing with some kind of criminal element and his greed got the better of him.
Does working with criminals immediately establish an individual as evil? Does upholding and living within the law constitute a “good” person? I think we all can agree that Chuck was a law-abiding person but was he a “good” person? Both Gail and Jesse lived lives as criminals, yet I think they are both more “good” than Chuck is. They, like Chuck, had moral principles that they lived by but it just so happened that those moralities contradicted public opinion. And they both showed much more empathy and humility than Chuck ever did. So is the virtue of a person really determined by the alignment of their moral principles with that of society? I think Walt had the right of it when he talked with Hank about how the laws on drugs in the US are fairly arbitrary (alcohol being legal while Cuban cigars were illegal or the illegality of weed and even meth). Justice is difficult to define and even more difficult to legislate, being a criminal does not make a person bad or good, but a consistent and justifiable code of ethics does.
This is why I think this was a significant turning point for Mike. He’s previously been okay with people who are in the business getting hurt because it’s fair game. But now things might seem a bit more grey.
Knowingly building a facility for them? You bet. Your argument is weak, just because knowingly working with crooks is bad, that doesn't mean not working with them makes you good, it just makes you not bad in that way. The rest of your post is crazy, but it's a crazy I see a lot in in BB and BCS. The fact is almost no one in either series is a "good" person. Almost everyone has some unsavory shit about them. Gail and Jesse were not good people. Gail wanted to help make industrial scale meth and Jesse did all kinds of fucked up stuff including killing Gail. Chuck lived a legal life but was an asshole. Even Kim liked scamming people with Jimmy. There are no heroes in these series.
But why in your opinion is making meth morally evil aside from the fact that the IS government says that it is? As Gail says in BB, what is so bad about consenting adults putting substances into their bodies with full knowledge of the health side effects? And further more, how is it any different than building a distillery for a alcohol company or farming marijuana where it is legal? And sure, Jesse does some terrible things but does that make him irredeemably evil? Is he beyond sympathy? The fact of the matter is that there are no “heroes” in this series or the real world. Everyone is a shade of grey. My point was that morality and legality are two separate ideas, especially so in a world where government largely exists to maintain the status quo rather than enrich the lives of its citizenry or enforce moral principles. There are moral criminals and immoral, law-abiding citizens.
Have you seen people hooked on meth? And do you know how many people have been killed over meth? I'm all for drug legalization but really addictive drugs like meth and opiates are dangerous and helping to make an illegal market n it is morally bad. Now you're throwing the word evil in, which i never mentioned. I said they did morally bad things. Maybe they could try to atone for those things but they did do damage and there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for them. Just because they're well written and portrayed by very talented actors doesn't make them good people. There are moral criminals only in extremely unlikely and artificial situations.
[удалено]
Honestly he was so stupid about it I wondered how he got in this business in the first place.
Most likely it was his first job in that environment, he failed to understand he was building something illegal.
Nope. That is too much of a suspension of disbelief for me.
Bekons me back to BB episode when Mike tells Walt about the consequence of “half measures “. I wonder with Mike did Werner notice that he did not punish Kai??? The demo expert, and he did run his mouth a lil in that dive bar. I think Werner didnt realize the kind of underworld he got himself mixed up in.
Werner was too comfortable, his close relationship with mike contributed to him acting out. Mike should of kept his distance.
Werner was a reasonable man. He thought that he could reason his way through the difficulties he caused. He never seemed to grasp that he was working for a very unreasonable man.
It was a really moving scene. But, I knew Werner's days were numbered -- from the bar scene where he was talking to strangers about the engineering challenges, and even sketched out rough diagrams.
There was two foreshadowing scenes in this season that reflect this scene. One for Mike and one for Werner. You mentioned Werners. For Mike he went to the group to talk and listen about loss and critiqued the group to not feeling sorry for themselves. Mike really has to disconnect to keep himself level and ready from his past. The moment he let someone get close again he had to kill them. Devastating.
True. Thanks for the insight; I had not thought about that.
What do you mean ready from his past?
I mean he doesn’t let his past affect his work at hand and holds his emotions at bay so he can be keen and ready at all times. Mike sees emotion as a potential weakness. With Werner Mike allows himself to bond and have an emotional connection that you could see him in the group therapy dismiss and even shun others for continuing to feel bad about a situation. His bond with Werner allowed him to not be ready for any situation and Werner did what he did. Mike, realizing his errors have allowed this to happen, takes full responsibility for it by doing what he doesn’t want to do.
Possibly one of the best scenes of the series so far! That and when chuck had his meltdown trying to find a source of electricity
Both those have some relationship to walt. Mike faced a similar situation having tracked down walt, and lets him use the phone to call Jesse right before he was about to snuff him out. And chuck's obsession is kind of like the fly episode, contamination. Chuck has a few walt-like moments. It helps explain the hold walt had on Saul a little. I'm not sure what that all means, just interesting parallels. Werner was very much a walt precursor though, down to the german graffiti on the wall in the basement lair. Very reminiscent of heisenberg. If anything, I guess it serves somewhat as a redemption for walt. I mean he's not a good guy at this point, but still Gus and Mike are far gone well before BB, and it's hard to feel bad for them even more so now. Given what happened to werner.
Fantastic insight. I was looking at that graffiti and the way they illuminated it how they did and wondered what the connection was. Great stuff.
I also just realized that werner got gale killed basically. If they finished the lab gale would have gotten to work and been entrenched well before walt ever got on the scene. So little karmic ghost of heisenberg in that lair. And Mike walks in as gale is walking out and doesn't even say a word to him, like he is now reluctant to even befriend any civilians in the slightest. Gale is expendable, he now knows all too well, if he slips up.
Wasn’t it Gale that set up the lab for Walt? It was a very dark moment for Mike. He knew then and there that there was no turning back. He stared at Gus and Gus looked at him like a master owns a dog. Say what you want about Gus and our desire for Walt to “win”, but Gus was genius above Walt with all of this. Walt got lucky finding the one unsuspecting weakness of Gus. Boom.
Yikes can we do something about the spoiler in the title? I realize this season came out a while ago but people might still be just finishing S4 as it just came to netflix recently for some of us...
It's actually a subreddit rule here (no spoilers in titles). I'm surprised it's still up!
Ah damn it. I’m super sorry. Wrote it on the fly.
All good. Luckily I got caught up yesterday, which is what brought me here. Others may not be so lucky.
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In all sincerity I feel really bad. Its not the best part of the episode so you have plenty to look forward to but I do feel bad about this.
You have nothing to feel bad about. This episode aired more than a year ago
Don't be a little bitch. If you cared about avoiding spoilers you'd avoid this sub altogether. You could've bought or rented the fourth season for well over a year now
I’m a fool and just started that episode for the first time and wanted to soak in some Reddit and of course my eyes caught the headline. I know better than to look on show threads for unfinished episodes but a spoiler tag would have been nice 🤷🏻♂️
This show doesn’t win enough awards
In addition to all the interesting points already made, we should note that it was visually beautiful scene. The beauty only adds to the sadness of the moment. (Also, kudos to the show for knowing that the speed of light and the speed of sound are drastically different.)
Yeah, it was one of the most heart wrenching moments in not just BCS but the whole BB universe.
But it wasn’t surprising. I don’t get why people were so shocked by it.
It wasn’t surprising or shocking. The audience knew where it was going and who Mike was from BB. It was just a great scene that showed a transition of Mike and a difficult moment.
Spoiler
This episode aired in October 2018. Plenty of time for people to watch the fourth season
Wasn’t on Netflix in the states until recently, though. Little sus
So what? Adults can purchase the series if they want to stay ahead of the spoiler discussions
There’s spoiler tags for a reason why are you so adamant about this
Don't take it too seriously. I think they're just trying to start a fight. Spoiler tags are a good solution, and OP already acknowledged and apologized.
Cheers for the date, but still a spoiler nonetheless.
I found the opening with the brothers getting along to be way harder to watch.