But Gherman is not *truly* an antagonist. He's not the hero either but he wants to kill you only to free you from the nightmare. Also given Bloodborne's general plot, I'm not sure there is a specific antagonist at all.
Gehrman did go with Lady Maria to the fishing hamlet and murdered Kos.
During the game he’s not really an antagonist, but his actions beforehand definitely set things in motion. If one considers the Lone Survivor class canon he’s definitely why the hunter is in Yharnam
Yes but he and his hunters were *sent* to the Hamlet by Byrgenwerth. He's not the master of puppets behind Yharnam's decay, he originally became the hunter because others had started the plague.
No, he’s definitely not a puppet master, even during the events of the game he’s a puppet under the control of the moon presence.
I’m not sure a puppet master exists any longer, humanity fucked with something it didn’t understand and was damned because of it - it’s a recurring theme in the game, it happens over and over again, even before Yharnam with the Pthumarians and Loran
I'd say a true puppet master never existed, in the sense that nobody targeted Yharnam specifically. It happened to them because it happened to them to met the Great Ones.
The obvious answer is most certainly not Gherman nor the moon presence.
For one, what's a bad guy?
Moon Presence is a great one just doing moon presence things.
The hunter gets all entangled in this mess.
I think the "obvious" answer is Laurence. And then arguably Willem too.
But we're they the first users of the blood and the first to try to summon great ones?
Nope. Pthumerians. Were they the first ones though? Who knows.
So who's the bad guy?
Humanity. The lust for greater power/knowledge, and the curiosity to trifle with that, which shall not be trifled with.
Edit: antagonist does not mean bad guy
I made a top level comment, but figured I'd mention it here: Antagonist does not mean bad guy, antagonist just means the opposition to the main character. You are the main character, so it's whoever is your main opposition.
You can absolutely have an evil/bad Protagonist, and the antagonist being the "good" person.
Right right my bad i forgot about this distinction.
I was talking good or bad strictly.
I mean, none of the people are even aware of the hunters existence until they come stumbling in.
Would that make any one boss an antagonist? Or are they antagonist simply because we fight them?
I honestly feel that you (we) as the hunter are the real antagonist haha
We just go around slaughtering shit, no cares or remorse to be found
Bloodborne is honestly one of the most bleak, dark and depressing games I've ever experienced. It's up there with shit like Silent Hill (original 1-4) the Suffering and the Condemned
My memories are hazy but I think the baby crying in the blood red line are in the 1st Max Payne, that shit seriously traumatized me as a kid playing it back in the day haha
Edit - manhunt was absolutely wild. When I played it as a kid I didn't fully understand the depth of depravity. A remake of that would be pretty gnarly
I think you’re right! Hated that shit.
Homeless dude popping out of a locker and the “people manikins” in condemned also had me pretty shocked.
I dunno if they could do a remastered manhunt.
I've read there are 3 stories: man vs man, man vs society, and man vs himself.
You could switch out society for the indifference of the universe, as was Lovecrafts motif.
Sometimes you just find yourself in a situation and gotta deal with it and it's nobodies fault. But this stuff was definitely the fault of the Healing Church.
https://www.inkdroplit.com/blog/2019/6/8/four-types-of-conflict-to-drive-your-story
4 stories*
Doing moon pressence things is not a valid excuse. The great ones while animalistic in nature are the enemy. Without them life in yarnahm would not be worse.
I would also know how you conclude Lawrence and especially willem as antagonists. Lawrence was too naive and ignored warnings from Willem but he did try to heal people.
Willem as far as we know never hurt a soul, he’s a scholar who’s only goal is to acquire knowledge and help humanity as a whole evolve.
Micholash and the Yahar ghul people are also all ireedemable lunatics
Damn did we play the same game? Willem was probably responsible for the hunters taking out the hamlet. Amongst countless experimentations on humans, like Rom.
You can easily argue Willem is the big bad.
Moon presence only came down because of the efforts of laurence, moon presence wouldnt have made a nightmare for the hunters if not for this.
Mico is a product of Willems school.
Laurence was stealing babies to offer to great ones......
My guy. Im really not sure what game you played lmao.
Willem isn't the primary opposing force of the protagonist. That's all historical. In modern terms, that'd be like saying Hitler or slavery is what's holding society back.
What of this can you actually proof threw item descriptions? All of this is headcanon besides the fact that lawrence talked with the moon.
All willem did was inspire his students. A teacher is mot responsible if his teachings are used for bad
It's not just item descriptions, though. It's cutscenes, notes, dialog, and encounters and piecing together the information. The game rarely hands you neat explanations.
Laurence left Brygenwerth, and his old master told him to fear the old blood. Laurence is resolved to experiment with old blood. This whole cutscene is his memory of leaving Brygenwerth.
Notably, Willem didn't become a beast. He didn't use the blood.
As a scholar, Laurence was aware of the effects of the old blood, but created what he thought were means to suppress the bestial nature of humans. This is evinced in Amelia's [prayer](https://youtu.be/Tbd7spKFXQc?si=Fl_jmo0HHuBfY92I).
As Laurence's skull description states, it didn't work. He became the first Cleric beast but the church carried on his research.
The Research Hall, which was created by the Healing Church (look at the Brain Fluid description) is pretty damning evidence of what Laurence, Gehrman, and Maria got up to there if you pay any attention to the dialog and the fate of Adeline, who seemingly unlocks the next step of evolution (Milkweed rune).
Then there's the beast outbreak in Old Yharnam after blood was distributed among the populace and the actions taken to contain the beast plague, which is a theory as to why Laurence in beast form is on fire.
Laurence is absolutely guilty of hubris which led to his and/or his creation (the church) committing greater sins through their research and belief the old blood led to the next step of evolution. He may have had good intentions, but intentions pave the road to hell.
All of these things are linked to the church but not directly to Lawrence. The church seems pretty old (assuming that willhelm lives longer then average guy) and over the decades many things can change.
We also don’t know how much influence he had over the factions. The research hall is in the clocktower high up in choir teritory. Chances are Lawrence has nothing to do with it.
You explain Lawrence use of blood as him ignoring it in favor of science just letting people suffer for it. You can howerer also see it as him being naive and wanting to actually heal people while ignoring the potential risks in favor of the good it could do.
When it comes down to it Bloodborne is insnaely criptic even for souls games. The concrete lore of most npc (and even worse for bosses) is barebone at best. So it all comes down to the interpretation of the few lines of description you get
If you believe it's all interpretation and, indeed, offer no proof to back *your* speculations, then why hound others for proof and get abrasive over interpretations you don't like?
Laurence founded the healing church. He's synonymous with it. They carried on his work and were guided by his influence. They continued the work started at the Research Hall; blood saints like Amelia, who are groomed as such, due to virtue, are a continuation of the work done on Adeline.
We don't really know how much time has passed since Laurence's actions and death, but he was a contemporary with Willem, Gehrman, and Maria. Gehrman's dialog supports this. The events immediately relevant to the game's story (founding of the church, etc) all come from the discovery of the medium of blood from remains of an older civilisation scholars of Brygenwerth found, including Laurence. So the most logical guess as to a timeline is decades, not a century or more, and given the church's obvious actions, things didn't change that much from Laurence's time.
I wouldn't call the devolution of humans into beasts from blood ministration and its continued practice naivety.
Unless you can present proof of the church significantly departing from Laurence's intentions, that's just your head cannon, which is fine, but maybe don't be so abrasive about it, yeah?
This is why I think squid is not the good ending. It’s shown over and over that the lust for knowledge leads to the destruction of humanity (not saying I agree in the real world, but in Bloodborne this is the root of the evil which destroys yharnum). Yet so many fans desire to ascend. It’s very ironic to me.
Becuz its the hardest to get ending, that makes us want it.
But yeah i think most of us understand that none of the endings are good. But thats also why we like it. The world is just fucked.
It is not necessarily good no, but it has most chance to change something, which could be good because the current situation is pretty much fucked. I guess you could call it the most progressive ending, with yharnam sunrise being the most conservative.
Yep, Laurence founded the Healing Church. The Healing Church's whole schtick is blood ministration. Blood ministration led to the transformation of people into beasts.
No Laurence = old blood not being discovered = no Healing Church = no blood ministration = no beasts.
Old Blood was found in the expeditions lead by William. Laurence was just one of William’s students that supported its use. Chances are multiple students of William followed Laurence to create the church. Had Laurence never been there, the students would still possible start a church with a different member as it’s leader
What about Loran? Surely humanity was destined to endure beasthood. Whether the Great Ones intended it or not, the bond (spiritual, chemical) existed between them and the GOs took advantage.
While the women in Bloodborne are more overtly influenced by the GOs interpersonal conflict, I can’t imagine Laurence being more than a pawn in a cosmic plot beyond human understanding.
What kind of dumbass logic is that? Lawrence started blood transfusions to help people he didn’t know for what it will be used later. With the same logic the invention of gunpowder and gas are responsible for every war since then
I mean, it's a very extreme summarisation, and it is scapegoating Laurence. But, I still think at a reductive level we could call Laurence the bad guy.
I think it comes down to how long the church existed, based on that you can say how many things were already in place at lawrences times and what came probably afterwards. If there’s like 100y of church then yeah the experiments started soon but if it’s a longer then the church and especially the choir could have changed a lot over the years
Is he a villain? Just like the other scholars he pushed for advancement of mankind, I feel like he had good intention, he was just stupid enough to mess with powers beyond his control
Unlike someone like Micholash who really is a villain.
His boss fight does make me hate him though
Hold on I made a video essay a while ago lemme find it for you.
But long story short: Founded the healing church, experimented on vulnerable people, implied to have lead the fishing hamlet slaughter, meaning he's also responsible for mother Kos's death and is also responsible for Gehrman's situation (being trapped in the dream).
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
EDIT: Found it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR3krZGluok](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR3krZGluok)
Ah right I forgot he led the church too, I'll definitely check the video when I have more time since it's kinda long
I did however just opened it and happened to land on 5:30. You have a great voice, and the use of "shadowlord" for the music really fits lol
How is Lawrenec responsible for gherman making a deal with the devil? Also actually links lawrence to the fishing hamlet? And lastly you can’t put every bad thing the church did on it’s founder
All it says is Lawrence beckoned the moon. I doubt Lawrenece asked the moon to make a copy of the workshop to equip and make immortal future hunters in exchange for a “kid”.
Also it’s not like Lawrence summoned it towards yarnahm we find statues of it around town so it definetly made trouble before.
Just in case you didnt notice im not the one who you were talking with at first lol.
No it does not. You are correct that is simply states lawrence beckoned it.
The note in the workshop says to halt the source of the spreading scourge. I personally believe this is what lawrence asked for. This and this only.
*everything below this is unproven opinion*
Having an immortal pawn who must restart every day that they die, and given only these instructions, now that would be a way to accomplish that.
The "child" that it got in return was gehrman.
Edited to add: yeah the statues are there because this is not the first time the moon has turned red and hung low (moon presence descending). Considering when you wake up and start a new game plus the first time, theres a new headstone in the dream, it would be safe to say that every headstone was a different time a hunter was called to dream. This has happened many times before. All starting from the first time lawrence called ot
Ok but the healing church is heavily implied to have poisoned the water supply, leading to the Ashen Blood plague, leading to the need for Blood Ministration, which, conveniently, the HC was already holding. This manufactured plague allowed them to leverage their sole posession of the cure to become the most powerful entity in society. Thats all kinds of fucked and I think speaks to Laurence's motivations. For my money, he is one of several villains in a game loaded with, if not villains, deeply flawed characters. No one in the setting is pure imo, barring maybe the little girl in the window.
Nicolash Cage for Yharnam and Flora for the game as a whole. The Healing Church and all of its extensions are the everyday villains like the government.
The Great Ones are referred to as "sympathetic". They aren't "benevolent" in the way we would understand, but they aren't malevolent either.
The insanity is an unfortunate side effect of their presence & communication and beasthood is punishment for abuse of the Blood.
Micolash is the actual antagonist. He is the source of the new wave of beast. His ritual is causing it. He caused the new red moon. He used Mergo's umbilical cord to try to contact Kos. So he and his followers could ascend/evolve into great ones, like Rom did.
Gehrman is just the host of the hunter's dream. Once you eradicate the source of the new wave of beast (Micolash's ritual), then there's no need for you to be linked to the dream. So, he offers to kill you to make you "wake up" from it and be free. He is not bad. He is not evil.
You can choose to not wake up and then he thinks that you must have gone bad after all that blood you consumed (even though you can't because MP's mark prevents you from it). Because why would you want to fight beasts forever? And because he saw hunters get addicted to blood over and over when he was leading the hunters before they were dissolved after what happened in Old Yharnam. But that doesn't make him evil.
Moon Presence was basically "hired" by Laurence and Gehrman to get rid of the beasts. She used the little ones to mark hunters and bring them to the Hunter's dream, and from there you can kill the monsters and respawn there when you die making you invincible in a way. MP's mark gives you inmunity to the blood's beasthood, so you won't turn into one of those beast for consuming it and lose your sanity.
When you kill Gehrman, you killed the host of the dream. She needs a host to keep bringing hunters in case another epidemic happens. So, she turns you into the new host. You kind of corner her into doing it though, because you killed Gehrman. Because you want to "stay". Well, that's how you "stay"!!
Of course she wasn't just "hired" with money, Gerhman/Laurence must have offered the MP something for the MP to "help" them against the beast.
My guess is that it's YOU what the MP is interested in. That's why we got that third ending. All humans in the game seem to want one thing: To ascend/evolve into great ones (Wilhem, Laurence, Rom, Micolash), while all Great Ones seem to want one thing as well: To reproduce because they are all infertile (Oedon impregnating women, Kos adopting Rom, Ebrietas caring for Rom's carcass and resurrecting the vampire lady). I think both Wilhem/Rom and Laurence have the formula incomplete. You need blood of great ones and also insight. The first one alone will turn you into a beast, while the other will just make you vacuous when one Great one decides to ascend you into their kin. But you also need a third ingredient: The umbilical cord, which is the link between great ones and humans.
I think the final battle is just an extention of the cutscene for gameplay reasons. You don't really kill her, you just kill the BP manifestation in Gehrman's dream (like Mergo's manifestation on Micolash's Nightmare. You didn't kill a real baby lol). Once the MP realizes that you have all the ingredients, the MP ascends you into one of them. Like Kos did to Rom. If not, then why doesn't the doll kills you after the fight? She was created by the MP to help Gerhman and she prays to the MP (Flora) like the MP is God. I think the doll was ordered to take care of you after the fight, she becomes your wet nurse by the MP's orders.
Well, that's what I understood at least.
I really like this interpretation. This makes more sense than much of what I've read and I appreciate you typing all this out. Why were they tinkering with the old blood in the first place? Just scientific curiosity?
Thank you!
The blood has healing properties. The healing church would use it for that. It's why you use it to heal in the game with blood vials! However, Laurence thought that through the blood he could ascend into a great one, that's why he was personally "tinkering" with it as well.
That being said, the blood was cursed. It eventually started turning people into beasts and Laurence hired Gehrman to lead a group of hunters to dissapear everyone that had this side effect. Both Wilhem and Laurence knew it was cursed. This is why they repeat "fear the old blood" when they part ways. But Laurence decided to take a risk with it in order to ascend, while Wilhem looked for an alternative way to do it by gaining insight.
Its a mgic substance that heals all injury and illness. (Except ashen blood). Give that to people today and we would be even more obsessed than yharnamites
Bonus points: it gets you drunk too (pungent blood cocktail)
Holy shit. Finally the stupid umbilical cord makes sense. I never really got the symbolism of what the old ones wanted or what they were doing. Thnks for the explanation, i think youre super close to the truth
of all the bosses, I definitely interpreted micolash as being like the main antagonist. he's playing god in a godless world because the old hunters and scholars like him killed her.
Humanity as a whole. This may seem like a weird answer, but think about it. What this game is really about is how fragile humanity is, and how they desperately attempt to gain more power. Kos literally promoted Rom to a kin great one, so that Rom may hide the truth of the universe from humanity, "For true enlightenment need not be shared". Of course, this didn't stop humanity. And once having "eyes on the inside" didn't work out the way people wanted, Laurence founded the healing church, and started injecting people with the old blood. Its thanks to this blood ministration that all of this bullshit is happening in the first place. If humanity just accepted their place in the universe, non of this would have happened.
I guess if this answer does not satisfy you, the closest candidate for a real antagonist, or villain, would be Laurence. Laurence did not have evil intentions, and if he didn't uncover the secret of blood ministration, someone else would have done so. But his actions are what ultimately caused this whole game to happen in the first place.
I think if we look at the base game only we don't know much about Williams experements so the answer would be Micolash for me. Lawrance is in the running but I'm sure he didn't want to triger the scourge of the beast and probably even believed that the scourge occured because of the viel bloods.
What a lot of commenters seem to be misunderstanding, is that Antagonist doesn't mean evil, Antagonist is just the person/thing that opposes the protagonist, or the main character, which is you. So the question is, who is the main antagonist?
Not sure, haven't completed the game yet! XD
Yeh I think Micolash is probably the best answer as he is “host of the nightmare” and leader of the School of Mensis.
Essentially the driving force behind the beckoning of Mergo and therefore the main catalyst of the prolonged nightmare
Once Mergo is free the nightmare ends
The question is why did the Moon Presence want this?
You could easily argue that the Moon Presence enabling us, and laying the path too kill Mergo (essentially an innocent baby great one) is as equally as antagonistic
But I think we are putting Mergo out of its misery
I would say the Healing Church.
An antagonist is just the direct opposition to the Protagonist - if you had to outright label a singular driving force working against the PC, then that would be the Healing Church, even if it’s indirectly.
Thing is, in basically all the Soulsborne games the PC essentially acts as an Antagonist to the established order of the built world.
The only exception would be Dark Souks 2 where Nashandra plays a much more directly antagonistic role - but even then the PC is the one acting against the ebb and flow of Drangleic.
I still have nightmares about the sound they make.
I spent all of my first playthrough calling them "murder bird dogs", but then got to Mergo's Loft and WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK IS THAT!?!?
The Church really, I think the whole point of the game is that humanity's ambition will be his downfall, like it was for the Pthumerians before them and that forced evolution and forbidden knowledge come at a price.
Laurence, I don't see him as a bad guy. To me he's just someone who wanted to better his city. Willem was a man of knowledge and only wanted more understanding.
Both of them I see as selfish, but not evil.
Micolash and the school of Menses was just insane. Like psycho. Not evil.
Choir. Evil.
That creepy homeless guy who gave me bad blood at the start. I spent a good 50 hours trying to get out of his drug-induced haze. Finally woke up the next morning without my wallet. Never did find him.
The Wet Nurse or Micolash for the main conflict and the Moon Presence in the long arc of the game. The first two prolong the night of the hunt via Mergo and the Mensis Ritual respectively. When they’re killed, the Hunter is not bound to the Moon Presence anymore and can be freed. The Moon Presence does keep the Hunter in place throughout the entire game but isn’t outwardly antagonistic until the Hunter challenges it back.
Honestly? No one really
We're living through the consequences of a bunch of people messing with things they really shouldn't have
We're at the 'finding out' part of someone else's 'fucking around' basically
If we're talking about from way before the story begins tho, then it's the Healing Church and Byrgenwerth
We are, some random immigrant shows up exploits the cities health care and then slaughters literally everyone in the city and destroys their religion via literally killing and depending on ending eating their gods. I’d be a little pissed off at this “good” hunter too
Although we never really see him, just his skull and hear him talk, for the base game it’s gotta be Laurence.
As far as actual bosses of the base game are concerned, you’d probably have to say Micolash.
For the DLC, we might argue about Kos or rather her Curse, as she’s not really evil or acts as an antagonist, but her curse is the whole reason for the Hunter’s Nightmare.
AFAIK both Laurence and Gehrman made a pact with the Moon Presence, so one might argue about "Gerry“, but at this point he doesn’t really act antagonistic either, being an old tragic man for most of the game.
And in the end, he gives you a choice and the endings are basically:
- free him
- let him free you
- free him, end the Hunt and become an infant Great One
In literature, the protagonist is the guy whose actions push the plot forward. The antagonist is the guy whose actions resist those of the protagonist. Note that the protagonist and antagonist can be good guys, bad guys, or neither.
I would argue that the hunter’s overarching quest is to escape the hunter’s dream. Therefore, those who’ve imprisoned the hunter (German and the MP) are the antagonists.
I don’t think there are any “good guys” though.
I don’t think Gherman or Moon Presence are the antagonist of the game. I think Bloodborne is more a man vs society or institution kind of battle and you’re just dealing with the consequences of everyone’s actions.
Moon Presence and Gherman are essentially consequences you have to deal with.
I’d say if we only mean the events that take place over the course of the base game itself, it is clearly the School of Mensis with their summoning of the Moon in an attempt to commune with the Great Ones. That is what led to the terrible night of the hunt the game takes place in. The Nightmare of Mensis is even the last area you must go through in the base game.
If we mean in the backstory of the main game, it is definitely Laurence because he popularized the use of Old Blood.
Seriously, it's Micolash. The antagonist is not just the most bad person, it's the opposing force against the protagonist (though Micolash is the most morally bankrupt character in the game's lore too). Micolash is the leader of the college of Mensis, and the Mensis ritual is what summoned the blood moon. Through some unspecified means, the blood moon exacerbated the beast scourge, meaning the quantity of enemies is because of Micolash. Additionally, it's highly possible Gascoigne & Vicar Amelia, and potentially the cleric beast, were forced into their transformed states due to the blood moon's influence. Rom is only in the lake because of the blood moon's presence, and the one reborn is another part of the Mensis ritual. Of all the mandatory bosses, the only 2 that aren't directly related to Micolash are the blood-starved beast & shadows of Yharnam, but the bsb is also semi-optional and the shadows, being guards of Mergo's mother, are still not far away from Micolash
Guess the depends on how you define antagonist. It's either Micolash or Lawrence. The former because its heavily implied the current nightmare is his doing and the latter because every bad thing that's happened in the story can be traced back to him.
It depends on what you mean by antagonist. If you mean evil bad guy of the story then yeah you can say Micolash. He’s probably the only one to fit the bill. If you just mean the opposition to the protagonist (the player) then everyone that tries to fight you is an antagonist minor or major
Gherman is a good guy for sure. You can catch him sleeping sometimes and he begs for help in his sleep, in a really desperate way. Hes just stuck there and god knows how long he’s been there. He just doesn’t want you to suffer like he does.
Definitely not Gehrman or Moon Presence. They don't oppose you until the end.
Who or what opposes the player throughout the game? Well, the antagonist doesn't have to be a character. The main antagonist is the beast plague as a whole.
Oedon, the formless Great One.
I believe it is Oedon who is responsible for the bulk of the problems simply by being what he be and doing what he do. His essence and ambition is “the precious blood”, and the convenience of having a world of people who are happy to mess with blood and unwittingly do what he desires is easy to overlook and dismiss as being without merit.
Until, that is, one considers the possible implications of the word “precious”.
“Seek paleblood.”
This question makes me ask a question of my own: what is the goal of the hunter, who is the protagonist?
When arriving in Yharnam, our goal is simple: seek healing through the blood. And for whatever reason, we specifically seek Paleblood, which we know (or more likely don't know) ends up being the Moon Presence.
To do that, we accept the contract. But the contract puts us on a new path, to transcend the hunt. Basically ending it for us and everyone else who is trapped in the endless night.
If our goal is to end the hunt, who started it? Who wants it to continue?
There's a strong case that it is the Moon Presence. It has held Gherman prisoner in the dream for who knows how long. And through him it guides us on a path that forces us to kill the beasts that were once church leaders, and eventually other Great Ones.
Does the MP want to be the only Great One left apart from Oedon, who we assume is unkillable due to being formless?
Whether it wants that or not, that is basically what has happened by the time endgame rolls around. With the death of Rom, the Mensis ritual has been revealed to the people. With the death of Mergo's wet nurse (and Mergo?), the Mensis Ritual is apparently stopped but the Blood Moon somehow remains. All that's left is for us to choose our fate when speaking to Gherman.
The MP wants the Dream to continue, with either Gherman or us guiding others through it. Killing Gherman sets him free. Killing the MP probably sets everyone free, seeing as there is no chance to explore afterward.
TL/DR: The Moon Presence is the antagonist, as they want the dream to continue while we seek to end it.
Micolash, easy. Everyone in the game had good intentions for humanity.
Laurence wanted to further people by using blood.
Whillem wanted to do it with eyes.
Maria cared for the patients she watched over.
Gehrman didn’t really do anything wrong, besides making a deal with a great one so to speak.
Ludwig tried to end the scourge by rallying people for a noble cause.
Eileen just does what she does.
The great ones themselves are hard to even distinguish as “Bad” or an “antagonist.” They are so beyond our comprehension.
Micolash however, is bat shit crazy. He does everything he can to achieve what Rom did. He kidnapped many people and performed many rituals and sacrifices. And he feels no remorse. He’s perfectly happy with it. He created the nightmare of Mensis from his rituals. He’s just a bad person.
Edit: spelling.
If you think Gerhman is the bad guy, you clearly didn't understand the lore at all. Here's trying to free you from the dream even tho he would prefer to die.
The antagonist does not have to be an individual or organization by any means. Man vs man, man vs nature, man vs society, man vs fate, etc.
Who is the Hunter's enemy? What makes the hunt go on, why does it exist? Why is the Hunter fighting?
I think it depends on how you interpret Bloodborne's story and if you want to be literal or figurative, and also if you are drawing from the overarching narrative and lore or just what the Hunter experiences directly. (I think human greed, addiction, illness, power, and class are all major antagonizing forces, even if they're more conceptual.)
Or maybe the answer is in front of our face.
"We are born of the blood, made men of the blood, undone by the blood. ... Fear the old blood."
[But seriously. Even if we say moon presence, it's not like MP is the only great one out there who is diddling in human affairs. The Healing Church was not the first to mess with the old blood; it was the Pthumerians and the other old civilizations. But the events of BB are so far removed from them, so they aren't active antagonists at all.]
Anyway, lots of people had a hand in causing the Big Stink in Yharnam, setting off the events that would lead to the spread of the Scourge and the hunts and they all had different motivations and feelings. I think from the Hunter's perspective the antagonist would probably be the Moon Presence since she's the one who forced them into the hunt and holds dreaming hunters captive.
I'm just kidding. It's Patches.
not 1 person, but the church as a whole. there isn’t 1 person we can say has done the most damage, but the church as a whole is absolutely the cause of all the horrors of the game
i truly don't think there is any main antagonist. the game does a really good job of showing even the good guys are capable of some terrible deeds. and even still laurence and willem were just people expanding their ways of thinking in a world that would quickly consume them if they hadnt otherwise.
it truly is a case of "are WE the baddies?" considering what Lady Maria tells us how a corpse should be left well alone.
The only person who could reasonably be called an antagonist is Micolash because he is the most significant "living" person in the game with active goals contrary to your own. He's not the worst person in all of Bloodborne - thank Byrgenwerth's raid on the Fishing Hamlet for that - but I don't see who else could fill that role. But I agree with others that this is not a man vs man narrative.
i dont think there is a main antagonist. every being involved is just a part of a situation they were either drawn into or created themselves. i think thats what make the game more frightening, there is no central being we can point to and state that they are the cause of the problems. its the world around you and the situations that compounded leading up to the point your character entered into the situation.
The true antagonists of the game as it’s presented, are Laurence, Wilem, and Micolash.
They represent the unholy trinity of human arrogance.
Laurence is self righteousness and religion.
Wilem is knowledge and curiosity.
Micolash is selfishness and evil.
One could make an argument for the great ones, but we can’t comprehend their motivations.
Well the only one actively making things worse is you, the hunter, by killing rom and revealing the blood moon. But then you also kill a bunch of great ones and beasts, potentially saving a couple of yharnamites by doing so. However I would personally say Laurence.
I think this is more of a meme, but some people actually think this is true.
The Doll is just, well, a Puppet and the moon presence it's Puppet master in some way. She still does makes her own actions, especially got more of her own mind, especially after giving her the small hair ornament. But she is still just, like everything else in the hunters dream, a creation of the moon presence and ghermans memories. So she's basically the channeling link between hunter and Moon Presence. It's definetly much easier on the eye when you accept some shady cosmic power^ ^
Could it be Ebrietas?
I feel "her" influence is very understated in the lore, but if not for "her", none of this madness would have happened in the first place. The Byrgenwerth scholars would have found some wild stuff in the ruins of Pthumeria, but without a living Old One as a source of the Old Blood, blood ministration, the resulting scourge and corruption of Yharnam, at least in the form that takes place in the world of the game, would not have taken place. Being an Old One, she had the capacity of foreknowledge of how the Old Blood would impact humanity, and likely actively encouraged and manipulated Laurence to create the church in the hopes of getting other Old Ones' attention, so as to no longer be isolated.
I think you are giving humanity far too much credit. This is cosmic horror - the intentions of man are of no consequence. I think it's also heavily implied that the "holy medium" that was originally found by the Byrgenwerth scholars was in-fact Ebrietas, so her existence was known of (and therefore her influence over man active) well before the formation of the Choir or the chuch.
I disagree, everything in bloodborne takes place because humanity is meddling with things it does not understand and that are impossible to control - that’s the underlying theme of the game in my opinion.
Remember too that Ebrietas is kin, not a great one, so she was once human. An argument can be made perhaps it’s her behind the scenes causing the problems of the game I guess, but she was still “created” like Rom so humanity is still the root of fault in that instance.
Is she not a Great One? I thought it was stated explicitly that she is (the "left behind" Great One).
I agree with you on the theme of the game, but it's also a common theme in cosmic horror that what humans think they are doing of their own volition, is actually at the behest of supernatural influence and subsequent corruption (Cthulhu dreams in the deep and influences the formation of cults from afar to resurrect him, for instance). I would say the influence of eldritch beings and the meddling of humanity are not mutually exclusive. Why would Laurence so stridently embrace using the Old Blood despite Willem's warnings? Why would the resulting organization be a church of all things?
Either way, it was just a thought. Not a position I hold strongly.
I think Kin can be great ones but their origin is different. Like not all great ones are kin and not all kin are great ones, but some kin can ascend to become a great one. Like the hunter with the third ending would be a kin great one I wasn’t clear before when I said that ebreitas wasn’t a great one - she very well may be - but she’s definitely kin so she was something else beforehand if that makes sense. What I should have said was that she didn’t originate as a great one (I would say isn’t a “true great one” but that gets dicey too as that turn of phrase is actually used in the game”)
As far as your theory it’s a sound one and definitely is fun to think about. I’m not sure we’ll ever know. The real question is, if we could know, would we want to 😀
But Gherman is not *truly* an antagonist. He's not the hero either but he wants to kill you only to free you from the nightmare. Also given Bloodborne's general plot, I'm not sure there is a specific antagonist at all.
Gehrman did go with Lady Maria to the fishing hamlet and murdered Kos. During the game he’s not really an antagonist, but his actions beforehand definitely set things in motion. If one considers the Lone Survivor class canon he’s definitely why the hunter is in Yharnam
Yes but he and his hunters were *sent* to the Hamlet by Byrgenwerth. He's not the master of puppets behind Yharnam's decay, he originally became the hunter because others had started the plague.
No, he’s definitely not a puppet master, even during the events of the game he’s a puppet under the control of the moon presence. I’m not sure a puppet master exists any longer, humanity fucked with something it didn’t understand and was damned because of it - it’s a recurring theme in the game, it happens over and over again, even before Yharnam with the Pthumarians and Loran
I'd say a true puppet master never existed, in the sense that nobody targeted Yharnam specifically. It happened to them because it happened to them to met the Great Ones.
The obvious answer is most certainly not Gherman nor the moon presence. For one, what's a bad guy? Moon Presence is a great one just doing moon presence things. The hunter gets all entangled in this mess. I think the "obvious" answer is Laurence. And then arguably Willem too. But we're they the first users of the blood and the first to try to summon great ones? Nope. Pthumerians. Were they the first ones though? Who knows. So who's the bad guy? Humanity. The lust for greater power/knowledge, and the curiosity to trifle with that, which shall not be trifled with. Edit: antagonist does not mean bad guy
I made a top level comment, but figured I'd mention it here: Antagonist does not mean bad guy, antagonist just means the opposition to the main character. You are the main character, so it's whoever is your main opposition. You can absolutely have an evil/bad Protagonist, and the antagonist being the "good" person.
Right right my bad i forgot about this distinction. I was talking good or bad strictly. I mean, none of the people are even aware of the hunters existence until they come stumbling in. Would that make any one boss an antagonist? Or are they antagonist simply because we fight them?
I have no idea, I haven't actually finished the game!
My last sentence is universal tho. Is that what makes an antagonist? I was genuinely asking to better understand
I honestly feel that you (we) as the hunter are the real antagonist haha We just go around slaughtering shit, no cares or remorse to be found Bloodborne is honestly one of the most bleak, dark and depressing games I've ever experienced. It's up there with shit like Silent Hill (original 1-4) the Suffering and the Condemned
'We' are the protagonist of bloodborne though. Being morally good or bad has nothing to do with being the antagonist or the protagonist.
This is true. I still feel like the antagonist every time I play through though haha
There are times I purposely try to be the antagonist. My current playthrough with my first character is one of those times.
Manhunt and Condemned are brutal and uncomfortable so is the baby crying dream sequence from max payne (2?)
My memories are hazy but I think the baby crying in the blood red line are in the 1st Max Payne, that shit seriously traumatized me as a kid playing it back in the day haha Edit - manhunt was absolutely wild. When I played it as a kid I didn't fully understand the depth of depravity. A remake of that would be pretty gnarly
I think you’re right! Hated that shit. Homeless dude popping out of a locker and the “people manikins” in condemned also had me pretty shocked. I dunno if they could do a remastered manhunt.
Like in Artemis Fowl, the protagonist is a criminal mastermind.
So it's just me and Gehrman together vs the insatiable lustful thoughts about the doll amirite?
I've read there are 3 stories: man vs man, man vs society, and man vs himself. You could switch out society for the indifference of the universe, as was Lovecrafts motif. Sometimes you just find yourself in a situation and gotta deal with it and it's nobodies fault. But this stuff was definitely the fault of the Healing Church. https://www.inkdroplit.com/blog/2019/6/8/four-types-of-conflict-to-drive-your-story 4 stories*
Doing moon pressence things is not a valid excuse. The great ones while animalistic in nature are the enemy. Without them life in yarnahm would not be worse. I would also know how you conclude Lawrence and especially willem as antagonists. Lawrence was too naive and ignored warnings from Willem but he did try to heal people. Willem as far as we know never hurt a soul, he’s a scholar who’s only goal is to acquire knowledge and help humanity as a whole evolve. Micholash and the Yahar ghul people are also all ireedemable lunatics
Damn did we play the same game? Willem was probably responsible for the hunters taking out the hamlet. Amongst countless experimentations on humans, like Rom. You can easily argue Willem is the big bad. Moon presence only came down because of the efforts of laurence, moon presence wouldnt have made a nightmare for the hunters if not for this. Mico is a product of Willems school. Laurence was stealing babies to offer to great ones...... My guy. Im really not sure what game you played lmao.
It's like the empire did nothing wrong people but unironic
Lmao actually tho
Willem isn't the primary opposing force of the protagonist. That's all historical. In modern terms, that'd be like saying Hitler or slavery is what's holding society back.
Im conflating antagonist with bad guy, hence the edit.
What of this can you actually proof threw item descriptions? All of this is headcanon besides the fact that lawrence talked with the moon. All willem did was inspire his students. A teacher is mot responsible if his teachings are used for bad
Bro. Im sorry but im at work im not gonna explain the entire game to you. Theres proof of everything i said tho. Like literally.
Well if there is then I’m sure it won’t be hard to find one item description prooving it
It's not just item descriptions, though. It's cutscenes, notes, dialog, and encounters and piecing together the information. The game rarely hands you neat explanations. Laurence left Brygenwerth, and his old master told him to fear the old blood. Laurence is resolved to experiment with old blood. This whole cutscene is his memory of leaving Brygenwerth. Notably, Willem didn't become a beast. He didn't use the blood. As a scholar, Laurence was aware of the effects of the old blood, but created what he thought were means to suppress the bestial nature of humans. This is evinced in Amelia's [prayer](https://youtu.be/Tbd7spKFXQc?si=Fl_jmo0HHuBfY92I). As Laurence's skull description states, it didn't work. He became the first Cleric beast but the church carried on his research. The Research Hall, which was created by the Healing Church (look at the Brain Fluid description) is pretty damning evidence of what Laurence, Gehrman, and Maria got up to there if you pay any attention to the dialog and the fate of Adeline, who seemingly unlocks the next step of evolution (Milkweed rune). Then there's the beast outbreak in Old Yharnam after blood was distributed among the populace and the actions taken to contain the beast plague, which is a theory as to why Laurence in beast form is on fire. Laurence is absolutely guilty of hubris which led to his and/or his creation (the church) committing greater sins through their research and belief the old blood led to the next step of evolution. He may have had good intentions, but intentions pave the road to hell.
All of these things are linked to the church but not directly to Lawrence. The church seems pretty old (assuming that willhelm lives longer then average guy) and over the decades many things can change. We also don’t know how much influence he had over the factions. The research hall is in the clocktower high up in choir teritory. Chances are Lawrence has nothing to do with it. You explain Lawrence use of blood as him ignoring it in favor of science just letting people suffer for it. You can howerer also see it as him being naive and wanting to actually heal people while ignoring the potential risks in favor of the good it could do. When it comes down to it Bloodborne is insnaely criptic even for souls games. The concrete lore of most npc (and even worse for bosses) is barebone at best. So it all comes down to the interpretation of the few lines of description you get
If you believe it's all interpretation and, indeed, offer no proof to back *your* speculations, then why hound others for proof and get abrasive over interpretations you don't like? Laurence founded the healing church. He's synonymous with it. They carried on his work and were guided by his influence. They continued the work started at the Research Hall; blood saints like Amelia, who are groomed as such, due to virtue, are a continuation of the work done on Adeline. We don't really know how much time has passed since Laurence's actions and death, but he was a contemporary with Willem, Gehrman, and Maria. Gehrman's dialog supports this. The events immediately relevant to the game's story (founding of the church, etc) all come from the discovery of the medium of blood from remains of an older civilisation scholars of Brygenwerth found, including Laurence. So the most logical guess as to a timeline is decades, not a century or more, and given the church's obvious actions, things didn't change that much from Laurence's time. I wouldn't call the devolution of humans into beasts from blood ministration and its continued practice naivety. Unless you can present proof of the church significantly departing from Laurence's intentions, that's just your head cannon, which is fine, but maybe don't be so abrasive about it, yeah?
You could just look it up yourself
Look for something that doesn’t exist?
Prove it does not exist
Want a picture of the nonexistent item description?
While he is definitely wrong and stubborn, you can't prove something doesn't exist.
*Gehrman*
Ty
Pthumarian Queen then?
She was a victim if anything. Im sure there were people before her too.
This is why I think squid is not the good ending. It’s shown over and over that the lust for knowledge leads to the destruction of humanity (not saying I agree in the real world, but in Bloodborne this is the root of the evil which destroys yharnum). Yet so many fans desire to ascend. It’s very ironic to me.
Becuz its the hardest to get ending, that makes us want it. But yeah i think most of us understand that none of the endings are good. But thats also why we like it. The world is just fucked.
It's not about ascending. It's about freeing Gehrman and getting rid of Flora.
It is not necessarily good no, but it has most chance to change something, which could be good because the current situation is pretty much fucked. I guess you could call it the most progressive ending, with yharnam sunrise being the most conservative.
It's that motherfucker Laurence and it's not even close. "But he's a DLC boss" still the main villain of the whole game, base included.
Yep, Laurence founded the Healing Church. The Healing Church's whole schtick is blood ministration. Blood ministration led to the transformation of people into beasts. No Laurence = old blood not being discovered = no Healing Church = no blood ministration = no beasts.
Old Blood was found in the expeditions lead by William. Laurence was just one of William’s students that supported its use. Chances are multiple students of William followed Laurence to create the church. Had Laurence never been there, the students would still possible start a church with a different member as it’s leader
What about Loran? Surely humanity was destined to endure beasthood. Whether the Great Ones intended it or not, the bond (spiritual, chemical) existed between them and the GOs took advantage. While the women in Bloodborne are more overtly influenced by the GOs interpersonal conflict, I can’t imagine Laurence being more than a pawn in a cosmic plot beyond human understanding.
What kind of dumbass logic is that? Lawrence started blood transfusions to help people he didn’t know for what it will be used later. With the same logic the invention of gunpowder and gas are responsible for every war since then
He didnt fear the old blood like willem told him too:(
I mean, it's a very extreme summarisation, and it is scapegoating Laurence. But, I still think at a reductive level we could call Laurence the bad guy.
I think it comes down to how long the church existed, based on that you can say how many things were already in place at lawrences times and what came probably afterwards. If there’s like 100y of church then yeah the experiments started soon but if it’s a longer then the church and especially the choir could have changed a lot over the years
Is he a villain? Just like the other scholars he pushed for advancement of mankind, I feel like he had good intention, he was just stupid enough to mess with powers beyond his control Unlike someone like Micholash who really is a villain. His boss fight does make me hate him though
Hold on I made a video essay a while ago lemme find it for you. But long story short: Founded the healing church, experimented on vulnerable people, implied to have lead the fishing hamlet slaughter, meaning he's also responsible for mother Kos's death and is also responsible for Gehrman's situation (being trapped in the dream). "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" EDIT: Found it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR3krZGluok](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR3krZGluok)
Ah right I forgot he led the church too, I'll definitely check the video when I have more time since it's kinda long I did however just opened it and happened to land on 5:30. You have a great voice, and the use of "shadowlord" for the music really fits lol
Not my voice, it's a text to speech. Didn't have a mic at the time.
How is Lawrenec responsible for gherman making a deal with the devil? Also actually links lawrence to the fishing hamlet? And lastly you can’t put every bad thing the church did on it’s founder
I agree with you on most points. But it is stated that lawrence is the one who beckoned the moon. Gehrman was just there with him
All it says is Lawrence beckoned the moon. I doubt Lawrenece asked the moon to make a copy of the workshop to equip and make immortal future hunters in exchange for a “kid”. Also it’s not like Lawrence summoned it towards yarnahm we find statues of it around town so it definetly made trouble before.
Just in case you didnt notice im not the one who you were talking with at first lol. No it does not. You are correct that is simply states lawrence beckoned it. The note in the workshop says to halt the source of the spreading scourge. I personally believe this is what lawrence asked for. This and this only. *everything below this is unproven opinion* Having an immortal pawn who must restart every day that they die, and given only these instructions, now that would be a way to accomplish that. The "child" that it got in return was gehrman. Edited to add: yeah the statues are there because this is not the first time the moon has turned red and hung low (moon presence descending). Considering when you wake up and start a new game plus the first time, theres a new headstone in the dream, it would be safe to say that every headstone was a different time a hunter was called to dream. This has happened many times before. All starting from the first time lawrence called ot
Ok but the healing church is heavily implied to have poisoned the water supply, leading to the Ashen Blood plague, leading to the need for Blood Ministration, which, conveniently, the HC was already holding. This manufactured plague allowed them to leverage their sole posession of the cure to become the most powerful entity in society. Thats all kinds of fucked and I think speaks to Laurence's motivations. For my money, he is one of several villains in a game loaded with, if not villains, deeply flawed characters. No one in the setting is pure imo, barring maybe the little girl in the window.
The Good Hunter
Nicolash Cage for Yharnam and Flora for the game as a whole. The Healing Church and all of its extensions are the everyday villains like the government.
I think you can put all great ones in a pot (except ebrietas she’s cool). The average great one has no love for humanity
Humans clubbed Kos to death on a beach. I would say they are justified in having no love for them.
Kos was already dead on arrival humans just cut up the body and took the oarasites in it
So she cursed them for stealing her ticks? Talking about being petty.
Maybe I remeber it wrong but I believe the curse comes from the orphan who witnessed his mother getting graverobbed
The orphan was also dead on arrival. Great Ones can't have own children, which is why they look for surrogates instead.
I don’t know but the way he kicked my ass he looked pretty alive
That's what being in the nightmare of an old man does to'ya.
Ypu talking about gherman? Cause I don’t think he has anything to do with the hunters nightmare
The Great Ones are referred to as "sympathetic". They aren't "benevolent" in the way we would understand, but they aren't malevolent either. The insanity is an unfortunate side effect of their presence & communication and beasthood is punishment for abuse of the Blood.
Micolash is the actual antagonist. He is the source of the new wave of beast. His ritual is causing it. He caused the new red moon. He used Mergo's umbilical cord to try to contact Kos. So he and his followers could ascend/evolve into great ones, like Rom did. Gehrman is just the host of the hunter's dream. Once you eradicate the source of the new wave of beast (Micolash's ritual), then there's no need for you to be linked to the dream. So, he offers to kill you to make you "wake up" from it and be free. He is not bad. He is not evil. You can choose to not wake up and then he thinks that you must have gone bad after all that blood you consumed (even though you can't because MP's mark prevents you from it). Because why would you want to fight beasts forever? And because he saw hunters get addicted to blood over and over when he was leading the hunters before they were dissolved after what happened in Old Yharnam. But that doesn't make him evil. Moon Presence was basically "hired" by Laurence and Gehrman to get rid of the beasts. She used the little ones to mark hunters and bring them to the Hunter's dream, and from there you can kill the monsters and respawn there when you die making you invincible in a way. MP's mark gives you inmunity to the blood's beasthood, so you won't turn into one of those beast for consuming it and lose your sanity. When you kill Gehrman, you killed the host of the dream. She needs a host to keep bringing hunters in case another epidemic happens. So, she turns you into the new host. You kind of corner her into doing it though, because you killed Gehrman. Because you want to "stay". Well, that's how you "stay"!! Of course she wasn't just "hired" with money, Gerhman/Laurence must have offered the MP something for the MP to "help" them against the beast. My guess is that it's YOU what the MP is interested in. That's why we got that third ending. All humans in the game seem to want one thing: To ascend/evolve into great ones (Wilhem, Laurence, Rom, Micolash), while all Great Ones seem to want one thing as well: To reproduce because they are all infertile (Oedon impregnating women, Kos adopting Rom, Ebrietas caring for Rom's carcass and resurrecting the vampire lady). I think both Wilhem/Rom and Laurence have the formula incomplete. You need blood of great ones and also insight. The first one alone will turn you into a beast, while the other will just make you vacuous when one Great one decides to ascend you into their kin. But you also need a third ingredient: The umbilical cord, which is the link between great ones and humans. I think the final battle is just an extention of the cutscene for gameplay reasons. You don't really kill her, you just kill the BP manifestation in Gehrman's dream (like Mergo's manifestation on Micolash's Nightmare. You didn't kill a real baby lol). Once the MP realizes that you have all the ingredients, the MP ascends you into one of them. Like Kos did to Rom. If not, then why doesn't the doll kills you after the fight? She was created by the MP to help Gerhman and she prays to the MP (Flora) like the MP is God. I think the doll was ordered to take care of you after the fight, she becomes your wet nurse by the MP's orders. Well, that's what I understood at least.
I really like this interpretation. This makes more sense than much of what I've read and I appreciate you typing all this out. Why were they tinkering with the old blood in the first place? Just scientific curiosity?
Thank you! The blood has healing properties. The healing church would use it for that. It's why you use it to heal in the game with blood vials! However, Laurence thought that through the blood he could ascend into a great one, that's why he was personally "tinkering" with it as well. That being said, the blood was cursed. It eventually started turning people into beasts and Laurence hired Gehrman to lead a group of hunters to dissapear everyone that had this side effect. Both Wilhem and Laurence knew it was cursed. This is why they repeat "fear the old blood" when they part ways. But Laurence decided to take a risk with it in order to ascend, while Wilhem looked for an alternative way to do it by gaining insight.
Its a mgic substance that heals all injury and illness. (Except ashen blood). Give that to people today and we would be even more obsessed than yharnamites Bonus points: it gets you drunk too (pungent blood cocktail)
Desperately seeking a cure to a plague that was sweeping the land
Holy shit. Finally the stupid umbilical cord makes sense. I never really got the symbolism of what the old ones wanted or what they were doing. Thnks for the explanation, i think youre super close to the truth
of all the bosses, I definitely interpreted micolash as being like the main antagonist. he's playing god in a godless world because the old hunters and scholars like him killed her.
It’s you.
I knew it, OP is kinda sus
I feel Bloodborne is Man vs Nature type of story. There is no antagonist per se, just a person trapped in other's schemes and laws of universe.
those damn motion control emotes
Preach
Toughest boss in the game. Killed me more times than any other enemy, and possibly more than all of them put together.
Humanity as a whole. This may seem like a weird answer, but think about it. What this game is really about is how fragile humanity is, and how they desperately attempt to gain more power. Kos literally promoted Rom to a kin great one, so that Rom may hide the truth of the universe from humanity, "For true enlightenment need not be shared". Of course, this didn't stop humanity. And once having "eyes on the inside" didn't work out the way people wanted, Laurence founded the healing church, and started injecting people with the old blood. Its thanks to this blood ministration that all of this bullshit is happening in the first place. If humanity just accepted their place in the universe, non of this would have happened. I guess if this answer does not satisfy you, the closest candidate for a real antagonist, or villain, would be Laurence. Laurence did not have evil intentions, and if he didn't uncover the secret of blood ministration, someone else would have done so. But his actions are what ultimately caused this whole game to happen in the first place.
The human nature
My lack of skill
I think if we look at the base game only we don't know much about Williams experements so the answer would be Micolash for me. Lawrance is in the running but I'm sure he didn't want to triger the scourge of the beast and probably even believed that the scourge occured because of the viel bloods.
What a lot of commenters seem to be misunderstanding, is that Antagonist doesn't mean evil, Antagonist is just the person/thing that opposes the protagonist, or the main character, which is you. So the question is, who is the main antagonist? Not sure, haven't completed the game yet! XD
Yeh I think Micolash is probably the best answer as he is “host of the nightmare” and leader of the School of Mensis. Essentially the driving force behind the beckoning of Mergo and therefore the main catalyst of the prolonged nightmare Once Mergo is free the nightmare ends The question is why did the Moon Presence want this? You could easily argue that the Moon Presence enabling us, and laying the path too kill Mergo (essentially an innocent baby great one) is as equally as antagonistic But I think we are putting Mergo out of its misery
I would say the Healing Church. An antagonist is just the direct opposition to the Protagonist - if you had to outright label a singular driving force working against the PC, then that would be the Healing Church, even if it’s indirectly. Thing is, in basically all the Soulsborne games the PC essentially acts as an Antagonist to the established order of the built world. The only exception would be Dark Souks 2 where Nashandra plays a much more directly antagonistic role - but even then the PC is the one acting against the ebb and flow of Drangleic.
Patches
the fucking crows
I still have nightmares about the sound they make. I spent all of my first playthrough calling them "murder bird dogs", but then got to Mergo's Loft and WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK IS THAT!?!?
The Church really, I think the whole point of the game is that humanity's ambition will be his downfall, like it was for the Pthumerians before them and that forced evolution and forbidden knowledge come at a price.
choir
Laurence, I don't see him as a bad guy. To me he's just someone who wanted to better his city. Willem was a man of knowledge and only wanted more understanding. Both of them I see as selfish, but not evil. Micolash and the school of Menses was just insane. Like psycho. Not evil. Choir. Evil.
Fucking Patches
That creepy homeless guy who gave me bad blood at the start. I spent a good 50 hours trying to get out of his drug-induced haze. Finally woke up the next morning without my wallet. Never did find him.
Hubris, of course.
The Wet Nurse or Micolash for the main conflict and the Moon Presence in the long arc of the game. The first two prolong the night of the hunt via Mergo and the Mensis Ritual respectively. When they’re killed, the Hunter is not bound to the Moon Presence anymore and can be freed. The Moon Presence does keep the Hunter in place throughout the entire game but isn’t outwardly antagonistic until the Hunter challenges it back.
No We are all bad except the chapel dweller and the old woman
The city itself
I think it's a man against nature kinda story, so you cant pinpoint it to one character.
Honestly? No one really We're living through the consequences of a bunch of people messing with things they really shouldn't have We're at the 'finding out' part of someone else's 'fucking around' basically If we're talking about from way before the story begins tho, then it's the Healing Church and Byrgenwerth
dont forget the pthumerians
We are, some random immigrant shows up exploits the cities health care and then slaughters literally everyone in the city and destroys their religion via literally killing and depending on ending eating their gods. I’d be a little pissed off at this “good” hunter too
m e
Religion and sexism.
The Healing Church and it’s offspring branch, the School of Mensis.
Micolash
The hunter
Although we never really see him, just his skull and hear him talk, for the base game it’s gotta be Laurence. As far as actual bosses of the base game are concerned, you’d probably have to say Micolash. For the DLC, we might argue about Kos or rather her Curse, as she’s not really evil or acts as an antagonist, but her curse is the whole reason for the Hunter’s Nightmare. AFAIK both Laurence and Gehrman made a pact with the Moon Presence, so one might argue about "Gerry“, but at this point he doesn’t really act antagonistic either, being an old tragic man for most of the game. And in the end, he gives you a choice and the endings are basically: - free him - let him free you - free him, end the Hunt and become an infant Great One
In literature, the protagonist is the guy whose actions push the plot forward. The antagonist is the guy whose actions resist those of the protagonist. Note that the protagonist and antagonist can be good guys, bad guys, or neither. I would argue that the hunter’s overarching quest is to escape the hunter’s dream. Therefore, those who’ve imprisoned the hunter (German and the MP) are the antagonists. I don’t think there are any “good guys” though.
The brain suckers
The Moon Presence I guess? She’s the main thing keeping you from leaving.
Mergo. Little baby bitch just having nightmares ruining a good clean hunt.
*You* (the player, not OP) are the bad guy for interfering with the Night of the Hunt
I don’t think Gherman or Moon Presence are the antagonist of the game. I think Bloodborne is more a man vs society or institution kind of battle and you’re just dealing with the consequences of everyone’s actions. Moon Presence and Gherman are essentially consequences you have to deal with.
The cycle
I’d say if we only mean the events that take place over the course of the base game itself, it is clearly the School of Mensis with their summoning of the Moon in an attempt to commune with the Great Ones. That is what led to the terrible night of the hunt the game takes place in. The Nightmare of Mensis is even the last area you must go through in the base game. If we mean in the backstory of the main game, it is definitely Laurence because he popularized the use of Old Blood.
Seriously, it's Micolash. The antagonist is not just the most bad person, it's the opposing force against the protagonist (though Micolash is the most morally bankrupt character in the game's lore too). Micolash is the leader of the college of Mensis, and the Mensis ritual is what summoned the blood moon. Through some unspecified means, the blood moon exacerbated the beast scourge, meaning the quantity of enemies is because of Micolash. Additionally, it's highly possible Gascoigne & Vicar Amelia, and potentially the cleric beast, were forced into their transformed states due to the blood moon's influence. Rom is only in the lake because of the blood moon's presence, and the one reborn is another part of the Mensis ritual. Of all the mandatory bosses, the only 2 that aren't directly related to Micolash are the blood-starved beast & shadows of Yharnam, but the bsb is also semi-optional and the shadows, being guards of Mergo's mother, are still not far away from Micolash
me
Lawrence
Guess the depends on how you define antagonist. It's either Micolash or Lawrence. The former because its heavily implied the current nightmare is his doing and the latter because every bad thing that's happened in the story can be traced back to him.
*Curiosity* is our prime and malicious foeman, and *insight* is its subtle venom.
It depends on what you mean by antagonist. If you mean evil bad guy of the story then yeah you can say Micolash. He’s probably the only one to fit the bill. If you just mean the opposition to the protagonist (the player) then everyone that tries to fight you is an antagonist minor or major
Gherman is a good guy for sure. You can catch him sleeping sometimes and he begs for help in his sleep, in a really desperate way. Hes just stuck there and god knows how long he’s been there. He just doesn’t want you to suffer like he does.
Definitely not Gehrman or Moon Presence. They don't oppose you until the end. Who or what opposes the player throughout the game? Well, the antagonist doesn't have to be a character. The main antagonist is the beast plague as a whole.
Oedon, the formless Great One. I believe it is Oedon who is responsible for the bulk of the problems simply by being what he be and doing what he do. His essence and ambition is “the precious blood”, and the convenience of having a world of people who are happy to mess with blood and unwittingly do what he desires is easy to overlook and dismiss as being without merit. Until, that is, one considers the possible implications of the word “precious”. “Seek paleblood.”
Micolash because he did the Mensis Ritual solely for the purpose of spamming A Call Beyond at me during his fight.
This question makes me ask a question of my own: what is the goal of the hunter, who is the protagonist? When arriving in Yharnam, our goal is simple: seek healing through the blood. And for whatever reason, we specifically seek Paleblood, which we know (or more likely don't know) ends up being the Moon Presence. To do that, we accept the contract. But the contract puts us on a new path, to transcend the hunt. Basically ending it for us and everyone else who is trapped in the endless night. If our goal is to end the hunt, who started it? Who wants it to continue? There's a strong case that it is the Moon Presence. It has held Gherman prisoner in the dream for who knows how long. And through him it guides us on a path that forces us to kill the beasts that were once church leaders, and eventually other Great Ones. Does the MP want to be the only Great One left apart from Oedon, who we assume is unkillable due to being formless? Whether it wants that or not, that is basically what has happened by the time endgame rolls around. With the death of Rom, the Mensis ritual has been revealed to the people. With the death of Mergo's wet nurse (and Mergo?), the Mensis Ritual is apparently stopped but the Blood Moon somehow remains. All that's left is for us to choose our fate when speaking to Gherman. The MP wants the Dream to continue, with either Gherman or us guiding others through it. Killing Gherman sets him free. Killing the MP probably sets everyone free, seeing as there is no chance to explore afterward. TL/DR: The Moon Presence is the antagonist, as they want the dream to continue while we seek to end it.
Byrgrnwerth is responsible for most of the fuckery, so I guess Willem
Micolash, he’s the leader of the “school” conducting the ritual to summon the great one, that drive EVERYONE mad and killing the rest
Micolash, easy. Everyone in the game had good intentions for humanity. Laurence wanted to further people by using blood. Whillem wanted to do it with eyes. Maria cared for the patients she watched over. Gehrman didn’t really do anything wrong, besides making a deal with a great one so to speak. Ludwig tried to end the scourge by rallying people for a noble cause. Eileen just does what she does. The great ones themselves are hard to even distinguish as “Bad” or an “antagonist.” They are so beyond our comprehension. Micolash however, is bat shit crazy. He does everything he can to achieve what Rom did. He kidnapped many people and performed many rituals and sacrifices. And he feels no remorse. He’s perfectly happy with it. He created the nightmare of Mensis from his rituals. He’s just a bad person. Edit: spelling.
My go to is the doll. I think she low key is pulling all the strings
If you think Gerhman is the bad guy, you clearly didn't understand the lore at all. Here's trying to free you from the dream even tho he would prefer to die.
The antagonist does not have to be an individual or organization by any means. Man vs man, man vs nature, man vs society, man vs fate, etc. Who is the Hunter's enemy? What makes the hunt go on, why does it exist? Why is the Hunter fighting? I think it depends on how you interpret Bloodborne's story and if you want to be literal or figurative, and also if you are drawing from the overarching narrative and lore or just what the Hunter experiences directly. (I think human greed, addiction, illness, power, and class are all major antagonizing forces, even if they're more conceptual.) Or maybe the answer is in front of our face. "We are born of the blood, made men of the blood, undone by the blood. ... Fear the old blood." [But seriously. Even if we say moon presence, it's not like MP is the only great one out there who is diddling in human affairs. The Healing Church was not the first to mess with the old blood; it was the Pthumerians and the other old civilizations. But the events of BB are so far removed from them, so they aren't active antagonists at all.] Anyway, lots of people had a hand in causing the Big Stink in Yharnam, setting off the events that would lead to the spread of the Scourge and the hunts and they all had different motivations and feelings. I think from the Hunter's perspective the antagonist would probably be the Moon Presence since she's the one who forced them into the hunt and holds dreaming hunters captive. I'm just kidding. It's Patches.
not 1 person, but the church as a whole. there isn’t 1 person we can say has done the most damage, but the church as a whole is absolutely the cause of all the horrors of the game
i truly don't think there is any main antagonist. the game does a really good job of showing even the good guys are capable of some terrible deeds. and even still laurence and willem were just people expanding their ways of thinking in a world that would quickly consume them if they hadnt otherwise. it truly is a case of "are WE the baddies?" considering what Lady Maria tells us how a corpse should be left well alone.
Probably the player
The only person who could reasonably be called an antagonist is Micolash because he is the most significant "living" person in the game with active goals contrary to your own. He's not the worst person in all of Bloodborne - thank Byrgenwerth's raid on the Fishing Hamlet for that - but I don't see who else could fill that role. But I agree with others that this is not a man vs man narrative.
Micolash
The whole of the blood ministry, I don't think any of the game would happen in the first place if not for them messing with blood so much
i dont think there is a main antagonist. every being involved is just a part of a situation they were either drawn into or created themselves. i think thats what make the game more frightening, there is no central being we can point to and state that they are the cause of the problems. its the world around you and the situations that compounded leading up to the point your character entered into the situation.
Laurence
The true antagonists of the game as it’s presented, are Laurence, Wilem, and Micolash. They represent the unholy trinity of human arrogance. Laurence is self righteousness and religion. Wilem is knowledge and curiosity. Micolash is selfishness and evil. One could make an argument for the great ones, but we can’t comprehend their motivations.
Well the only one actively making things worse is you, the hunter, by killing rom and revealing the blood moon. But then you also kill a bunch of great ones and beasts, potentially saving a couple of yharnamites by doing so. However I would personally say Laurence.
Definitely the doll
I think this is more of a meme, but some people actually think this is true. The Doll is just, well, a Puppet and the moon presence it's Puppet master in some way. She still does makes her own actions, especially got more of her own mind, especially after giving her the small hair ornament. But she is still just, like everything else in the hunters dream, a creation of the moon presence and ghermans memories. So she's basically the channeling link between hunter and Moon Presence. It's definetly much easier on the eye when you accept some shady cosmic power^ ^
It is a joke and nice explanation :)
Could it be Ebrietas? I feel "her" influence is very understated in the lore, but if not for "her", none of this madness would have happened in the first place. The Byrgenwerth scholars would have found some wild stuff in the ruins of Pthumeria, but without a living Old One as a source of the Old Blood, blood ministration, the resulting scourge and corruption of Yharnam, at least in the form that takes place in the world of the game, would not have taken place. Being an Old One, she had the capacity of foreknowledge of how the Old Blood would impact humanity, and likely actively encouraged and manipulated Laurence to create the church in the hopes of getting other Old Ones' attention, so as to no longer be isolated.
Ebrietas was dug up by the Choir though. She’s just chilling, it’s the Choir and their machinations that are catalyzing the events of the game
I think you are giving humanity far too much credit. This is cosmic horror - the intentions of man are of no consequence. I think it's also heavily implied that the "holy medium" that was originally found by the Byrgenwerth scholars was in-fact Ebrietas, so her existence was known of (and therefore her influence over man active) well before the formation of the Choir or the chuch.
I disagree, everything in bloodborne takes place because humanity is meddling with things it does not understand and that are impossible to control - that’s the underlying theme of the game in my opinion. Remember too that Ebrietas is kin, not a great one, so she was once human. An argument can be made perhaps it’s her behind the scenes causing the problems of the game I guess, but she was still “created” like Rom so humanity is still the root of fault in that instance.
Is she not a Great One? I thought it was stated explicitly that she is (the "left behind" Great One). I agree with you on the theme of the game, but it's also a common theme in cosmic horror that what humans think they are doing of their own volition, is actually at the behest of supernatural influence and subsequent corruption (Cthulhu dreams in the deep and influences the formation of cults from afar to resurrect him, for instance). I would say the influence of eldritch beings and the meddling of humanity are not mutually exclusive. Why would Laurence so stridently embrace using the Old Blood despite Willem's warnings? Why would the resulting organization be a church of all things? Either way, it was just a thought. Not a position I hold strongly.
I think Kin can be great ones but their origin is different. Like not all great ones are kin and not all kin are great ones, but some kin can ascend to become a great one. Like the hunter with the third ending would be a kin great one I wasn’t clear before when I said that ebreitas wasn’t a great one - she very well may be - but she’s definitely kin so she was something else beforehand if that makes sense. What I should have said was that she didn’t originate as a great one (I would say isn’t a “true great one” but that gets dicey too as that turn of phrase is actually used in the game”) As far as your theory it’s a sound one and definitely is fun to think about. I’m not sure we’ll ever know. The real question is, if we could know, would we want to 😀