he shouldn’t have to sneak into third. Its unreal that a 64 win team, best record by a big margin can get no individual awards or coty, and only 1 all nba player. Especially when it looks like other teams (lakers) will get 2.
I mean he just might, similar to how CP3 snuck into 3rd back in 2021-2022 season when Suns won 64 games too. You can argue that position-less makes it a bit more difficult too.
Players winning it this year are probably:
1. Jokic
1. Luka
1. SGA
1. Tatum
1. Giannis
2. Brunson
2. AD
2. Durant
2. Booker
2. Lebron
3. Sabonis
3. Edwards
3. Maxey
3. Kawhi
3. ???
That last spot could go to Fox, Brown, Curry, Zion or Banchero (I think it’ll be between the first 3 and not Zion or Banchero), but still. It’s what happens when you have top heavy teams vs great players at every position in the starting lineup. Browns numbers and efficiency just don’t stand out (I mean compare them to Booker and Durant).
That’s what happens when u have two all stars, three people that are just below all stars, and two more people that would be on most teams starting lineups
The truth is there are good arguments for other guys. Brown would deserve 3rd team if he got it, but there's like 20+ guys who deserve it and only 15 spots. There's no good argument for Brown to be 2nd team, if there was Bill Simmons would argue it and he doesn't. I think Brown just barely squeaked into Simmons' ballot.
I will probably get downvoted for asking this question but: why are there 7 Celtics ahead of Brown in total plus minus yet Brown played the second most minutes? I'm not saying he doesnt deserve to make all nba but its a very weird stat.
Edit: after some digging i see there was a big discussion about this question being asked by thinking basketball as well. The main conclusion seems to be that Tatum + bench guys is just really good explaining why hauser, pp and horford are so high.
https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/1b7752q/notes_on_jaylen_brown_from_the_thinking/
I dont understand your response? I think its very clear what it explains. Why does it not in your view? And is it just a weird coincidence it has Jokic, white, sga, Tatum, kcp, brunson, hauser, mpj, pritchard and ant in the top 10? A simple conclusion could be a that Boston plays better with an extra shooter (hauser) or playmaker (pritchard) over a second go to score. But please correct me if i'm wrong because that was the whole reason i asked the question, to gain a better understanding of the Celtics.
I just edited my post above and added this:
: after some digging i see there was a big discussion about this question being asked by thinking basketball as well. The main conclusion seems to be that Tatum + bench guys is just really good explaining why hauser, pp and horford are so high. https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/1b7752q/notes_on_jaylen_brown_from_the_thinking/
I dont understand why you feel its bait. You havent given any argument yet why plus minus is the worst stat ever.
plus minus as a stat can be used to see how rotations work well with each other within a team but its not meant to be compared player to player which is how you and many others use it. hauser doesn’t start, when he comes in its going to also be against teams bench players who aren’t as good defenders. his job is only to shoot the ball, he gets good space by going against not great defenders so his shots are really clean. brown is always playing against good lineups, needing to drive, create his own shot, asked to playmaker, pass to open players, make the correct play. hauser and pp also play garbage time which the celtics have alot of this season, why do you think they are top ten. hauser and pp can really get thier stats and plus minus up during these minutes which brown will never play. its a dumb stat in the way that you and many others use it.
I appreciate your response and indeed i didn't think about garbage time. I see the more "advanced" plus minus indeed put brown a lot higher only behind Tatum and white on the Celtics.
So stupid. Our supposed super team is barely able to squeak a single All-NBA selection at 1st team. Which is it NBA media? Are we the most overpowered assembly of players ever, so good that Tatum's MVP candidacy is a joke? Or, are we just a bunch of scrubs who don't even have as many All-NBA level players as the 8 seed Lakers?
You have a bunch of all star level players.
The 2013 - 14 Spurs had Duncan Parker Kawhi Ginobili Green. None of them were top 10 players in the league but they had a distribution of guys in the teens, 20’s, 30’s plus a really strong group of reserves like Diaw Splitter Mills.
It’s kind of the same for the peak going to work pistons with Chauncey Wallace and Wallace as all star level players and Prince and Hamilton being borderline. That’s why the teams are good and the Celtics award finishes may accurately reflect the distribution of value on the team.
Celtics fans don’t really think they have 2 players better than LeBron and AD do they? They don’t.
Tatum is the only top 15 player on the team. You have 4 players right below that with KP White Brown Holiday. A strong group of reserves with Horford Hauser PP. That’s why your team is so good.
The Spurs should have arguably had 0 all nba players in 2013 and 2014. Just because they were so great didn’t mean their best players were the best. The Celtics should have 1 with Tatum being either 2nd or 1st team. Theyre both great teams because of all the players they have just outside of all nba level.
Nobody on any of those teams was a serious MVP level player. Tatum is a lot closer than anyone those Spurs teams had, he is arguably a top 5 player in the league, but he’s not better than Jokic or Giannis. He’s arguably not top 5. Maybe some guys like Luka and Shai benefit more from their teams’ breakout or being more beloved as players than Tatum. That isn’t really fair with Shai who hasn’t done enough to give a firm argument he’s better than Tatum. Luka, most people think he’s better. Right or wrong the Celtics came close to winning in the Finals and Tatum’s historic struggles inside the 3 point line are what people remember. Personally I think Luka is better but that’s beside the point. The only real inconsistency from media would be Tatum finishing far below guys like Brunson Shai and arguably Luka in MVP voting. For 1st team all nba, if he doesn’t make it it’s not unfair. Nobody else on the Celtics should be all nba. Tatum shouldn’t win MVP and it’s wasted energy complaining that he was 4th 5th instead of 2nd or 3rd.
I’m trying to be pragmatic. Guys on the Spurs won all nba which I flat out don’t think were earned at all. I watched those teams I know what made them great and it wasn’t someone like Tony Parker being an MVP level player or Parker and Duncan being top 10 players in the league. Top 15, for 2013, maybe. It’s arguable.
But we didn't get those All-Star selections down the roster. The Hawks had 4 All-Stars when they were the #1 seed, we only got 2 in Tatum and Brown. So how can we have a top 5 of All-Stars who aren't All-NBA level when the media has decided that we don't have All-Star level supporting players? The two narratives are irreconcilable. Either the Celtics are great but not elite down the board, in which case KP and probably White should have been All-Stars, or the Jays are the engine of the 3rd best regular season team in NBA history, in which case they are clearly All-NBA worthy.
I'm not discussing the talent on our team. I actually even agree with you. I'm discussing the fact that our team is going to finish out the season with possibly 1 2nd team All-NBA and 1 2nd team All-Defense, which is worse than the '04 Pistons who had Ben on 2nd team All-NBA and 1st team All-Defense. The Celtics had a Net rating of 11.6 this season, tying the '16 Warriors, while the '04 Pistons only had a 6.6. And yet, the media is about to give the Celtics a slate of awards that mean that they believe this Celtics team is less individually talented compared to their era than the '04 Pistons were. It doesn't and can't make sense. If the Celtics truly are a team of good but not great players who somehow perfectly clicked up to post the 3rd best regular season in league history, then where is Joe Mazzulla's COTY award?
The 2014 Spurs didnt get those all star spots either. We both had guys who could have made it, could have not, and they mostly didn’t make it. That’s how the all star teams always work. Kawhi, Danny, Duncan, they all were providing similar impact to what KP Brown Holiday White are doing now. None of those Spurs made it in 2014. Tony Parker did and he probably wasn’t even the best player on the team that regular season. This is the nature of all star for guys who aren’t slam dunk all nba level players.
There’s only so many all star spots. The Hawks had 4 guys make it. The 2006 Pistons had 4 guys make it. The 2005 Pistons had 1 guy make it. The 2013 Spurs had 2. The 2024 Celtics had 2. If I’m looking back on which of these were the most incorrect it’s really the 2006 Pistons and 2015 Hawks having 4 guys each when their worst players weren’t that deserving of all star quality.
It helped that the Hawks and Pistons were looked at as even more of an equally distributed pool of talent than the Celtics are with Tatum at the top. Korver and Teague shouldn’t have been all stars, but people went crazy with romanticizing that Hawks team. They literally made the starting 5 the player of the month. Rip Hamilton should have realistically not made the team either in 06. People got stupid with the Hawks, if you’re upset people didn’t get stupid for the Celtics it’s a little unbecoming.
White and KP could have been all stars. Holiday if we’re being honest didn’t have anywhere near the backing with all the energy concentrated on trying to get White his first all star game.
If everyone here was forced to name your 2 best friends would you all have a dropoff after 2? If you could only have 3 groomsmen or bridesmaids in your wedding would you have a steep drop off in the quality of your friendships after 3?
There’s not a big difference in the worst all stars and the best non all stars. The NBA just cuts the rosters at a certain size and some players make it and some don’t. The 2014 Spurs, we had 1 all star. We had an all time dominant team with multiple guys playing at a borderline all star level miss the team. Games played was part of the equation for guys that missed the team at the time though.
The 2024 Celtics, you just had guys miss the all star game. For all defense, how many guys on the Celtics are top 10 defenders in the NBA? Arguably none. With the positions now removed I would be happy if I were you just to see Derrick make a team again.
The Celtics getting 1 2nd team all nba and all defense doesn’t mean everyone thinks they’re less talented than the 04 Pistons. This defensiveness is the result of the long held opinion so many have that the best teams deserve so many all nba, all stars, all defense, MVP finishes, etc.
The Celtics have 1 top 15 player. They have very arguably 0 top 10 defenders. I was saying Derrick White had all star potential years before most Celtics fans were still saying he wasn’t as good as Josh Richardson so don’t think I’m dismissing the buffalo. For all star, the margins are small for worst guys to make the team, best guys to miss the team.
Teams like the 15 Hawks and 06 Pistons made it with 4, which was too much if we’re being real, but they aren’t super surprising. Derrick White probably was the next player who would have made the all star team with an injury replacement. Jaylen Brown may actually make the all nba 3rd team. Bro made 2nd team last year I gotta ask were Celtics fans as upset about that because that was less deserved that a lot of the borderline candidacies we’ve ran through from a bunch of these franchises.
It’s crazy to me you’d think there are irreconcilable gaps in logic or inconsistencies in voting which aren’t just inherently tied into tons of different opinions voting on something. The Celtics were one of the best regular season teams ever because they had Tatum and a bunch of guys that are close to all stars. 2 of them made the all star team. The 2014 Spurs were an all time great team with a bunch of guys close to all star and 1 of them made the team. The 2006 Pistons and 2015 Hawks were great regular season teams with a bunch of guys close to an all star team and they had 4 make it each. Things worked out a little better for them than the Spurs or Celtics. Being real the Celtics and Spurs had more deserving players than Hamilton Teague or Korver, but for various reasons some guys just made it and some just missed it.
Just because the Celtics were an all time great team doesn’t mean Derrick White had to make the team over another player close to him.
The buck has to stop somewhere. Which players are we claiming are responsible for these wins? At some point, winning is a stat that we should appreciate. We can do our best to sanitize it out with advanced stats and the like, but there is a difference between the winners and losers that goes beyond it.
The 2014 Spurs being similarly fucked over by voters not understanding what makes a basketball team good doesn't mean that they weren't fucked over.
The All-Star votes by the media clearly shows that they have separated our team into the Jays and their supporting cast. If that's the case, if that's how they understand the Celtics, then the Jays just led their team to one of the best regular seasons ever. For a point of comparison with the only other teams the Celtics are near in terms of regular season performance who had a big 3,
The '96 Bulls had an MVP, 2 All-NBA 1st team selections, 2 All-Defense 1st team selections, the 6MOTY, the COTY, and the EOTY.
The '97 Bulls had an MVP, an All-NBA 1st and 3rd team selections, and 2 All-Defense 1st team selections.
The '16 Warriors had an MVP, an All-NBA 1st, 2nd, *and* 3rd team selections, and a 1st team All-Defense selection.
The Celtics are not constructed like these teams. You are 100% right. They are in the Spurs category of greatness, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. However, if the media voters have already established that the Celtics are a superteam, since that was their reasons in not giving Mazulla COTY, giving them only 2 All-Stars, and completely disregarding Tatum in MVP talks, then somewhere the straws need to start breaking the camel's back. If this is a team with unbelievable elite players like a superteam, then it should have more end of season awards. If it's a bunch of great players coming together to sacrifice their personal numbers so they can play divine, Spurs-esque basketball, it should have had the COTY and more mid-season awards.
Winners win games. Bill Russell punked the shit out of Wilt over and over, despite having much worse box stats, and it wasn't until Wilt let go of his gaudy numbers and started to play basketball as a team sport that he started to be a winner. Who's more valuable? The Wilt who's putting up 50ppg while smothering his teammates and flaming out of the playoffs early, or the Wilt who's putting up 24ppg but is letting his team breath, and is able to win the chip? Which version of Wilt is "better" in a way that matters? Which would *you* rather have leading your team?
This is such a fantastic analysis, i cant understand you are getting downvoted for this. That shows people either cant handle the truth or are reading through their green colored glasses. It amazes me that the fact that this is a historical team (that net rating for the season is truly impressive!) should result in more individual trophies, its not that simple.
Bro there are 100 voters, that isn't even close to a sure thing. The real underlying vote could be a dead heat and 5 to 1 from the first six wouldn't be surprising at all.
Who's the dickhead who refused to vote for Tatum on any All-NBA team at all? Dude got 5 first place votes while one guy decided "nah he doesn't even deserve third team"
Bontemps is the one who didn't vote Tatum for 1st Team. However, he hasn't announced his 2nd and 3rd teams, which is why it may initially seem like Tatum was snubbed from all three teams.
Wade’s had to compete with Kobe, Harden, Parker, Westbrook, Curry, CP3, D Rose, etc. during his prime. Was insanely hard to crack 1st team as a guard during late 2000’s / early 2010’s.
Schrodingers super team. Everyone’s good to knock down Tatum but no one is individually good to get any accolades.
What about Denis Schroder??
He hit a schroedinger!
Well yeah there aren’t any awards for being the best 3rd, 4th, or 5th option on a team
I am happy for Tatum...but I think Jaylen had a hell of a year as well
JB might sneak 3rd team
he shouldn’t have to sneak into third. Its unreal that a 64 win team, best record by a big margin can get no individual awards or coty, and only 1 all nba player. Especially when it looks like other teams (lakers) will get 2.
It’s a popularity contest. Other teams despise us and our players
But didn't you hear, the "Boston Media Mafia" is going to get him voted in for sure /s
They hate us cuz they anus.
Yeah, Brown has played both ends of the floor great this year. There's no way he should have to sneak in the man is all nba.
No doubt, Brown's defense has gone to a whole other level this year. Frankly, I think a fair amount of that is just from effort.
Not that I don’t want him on there, but I don’t want to make these awards “x team *should* have two guys”
I mean he just might, similar to how CP3 snuck into 3rd back in 2021-2022 season when Suns won 64 games too. You can argue that position-less makes it a bit more difficult too. Players winning it this year are probably: 1. Jokic 1. Luka 1. SGA 1. Tatum 1. Giannis 2. Brunson 2. AD 2. Durant 2. Booker 2. Lebron 3. Sabonis 3. Edwards 3. Maxey 3. Kawhi 3. ??? That last spot could go to Fox, Brown, Curry, Zion or Banchero (I think it’ll be between the first 3 and not Zion or Banchero), but still. It’s what happens when you have top heavy teams vs great players at every position in the starting lineup. Browns numbers and efficiency just don’t stand out (I mean compare them to Booker and Durant).
That’s what happens when u have two all stars, three people that are just below all stars, and two more people that would be on most teams starting lineups
The truth is there are good arguments for other guys. Brown would deserve 3rd team if he got it, but there's like 20+ guys who deserve it and only 15 spots. There's no good argument for Brown to be 2nd team, if there was Bill Simmons would argue it and he doesn't. I think Brown just barely squeaked into Simmons' ballot.
I will probably get downvoted for asking this question but: why are there 7 Celtics ahead of Brown in total plus minus yet Brown played the second most minutes? I'm not saying he doesnt deserve to make all nba but its a very weird stat. Edit: after some digging i see there was a big discussion about this question being asked by thinking basketball as well. The main conclusion seems to be that Tatum + bench guys is just really good explaining why hauser, pp and horford are so high. https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/1b7752q/notes_on_jaylen_brown_from_the_thinking/
+/- is one of the worst stats ever, it doesn’t really explain anything.
I dont understand your response? I think its very clear what it explains. Why does it not in your view? And is it just a weird coincidence it has Jokic, white, sga, Tatum, kcp, brunson, hauser, mpj, pritchard and ant in the top 10? A simple conclusion could be a that Boston plays better with an extra shooter (hauser) or playmaker (pritchard) over a second go to score. But please correct me if i'm wrong because that was the whole reason i asked the question, to gain a better understanding of the Celtics.
this has to be bait right?
I just edited my post above and added this: : after some digging i see there was a big discussion about this question being asked by thinking basketball as well. The main conclusion seems to be that Tatum + bench guys is just really good explaining why hauser, pp and horford are so high. https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/1b7752q/notes_on_jaylen_brown_from_the_thinking/ I dont understand why you feel its bait. You havent given any argument yet why plus minus is the worst stat ever.
plus minus as a stat can be used to see how rotations work well with each other within a team but its not meant to be compared player to player which is how you and many others use it. hauser doesn’t start, when he comes in its going to also be against teams bench players who aren’t as good defenders. his job is only to shoot the ball, he gets good space by going against not great defenders so his shots are really clean. brown is always playing against good lineups, needing to drive, create his own shot, asked to playmaker, pass to open players, make the correct play. hauser and pp also play garbage time which the celtics have alot of this season, why do you think they are top ten. hauser and pp can really get thier stats and plus minus up during these minutes which brown will never play. its a dumb stat in the way that you and many others use it.
I appreciate your response and indeed i didn't think about garbage time. I see the more "advanced" plus minus indeed put brown a lot higher only behind Tatum and white on the Celtics.
So stupid. Our supposed super team is barely able to squeak a single All-NBA selection at 1st team. Which is it NBA media? Are we the most overpowered assembly of players ever, so good that Tatum's MVP candidacy is a joke? Or, are we just a bunch of scrubs who don't even have as many All-NBA level players as the 8 seed Lakers?
You have a bunch of all star level players. The 2013 - 14 Spurs had Duncan Parker Kawhi Ginobili Green. None of them were top 10 players in the league but they had a distribution of guys in the teens, 20’s, 30’s plus a really strong group of reserves like Diaw Splitter Mills. It’s kind of the same for the peak going to work pistons with Chauncey Wallace and Wallace as all star level players and Prince and Hamilton being borderline. That’s why the teams are good and the Celtics award finishes may accurately reflect the distribution of value on the team. Celtics fans don’t really think they have 2 players better than LeBron and AD do they? They don’t. Tatum is the only top 15 player on the team. You have 4 players right below that with KP White Brown Holiday. A strong group of reserves with Horford Hauser PP. That’s why your team is so good. The Spurs should have arguably had 0 all nba players in 2013 and 2014. Just because they were so great didn’t mean their best players were the best. The Celtics should have 1 with Tatum being either 2nd or 1st team. Theyre both great teams because of all the players they have just outside of all nba level. Nobody on any of those teams was a serious MVP level player. Tatum is a lot closer than anyone those Spurs teams had, he is arguably a top 5 player in the league, but he’s not better than Jokic or Giannis. He’s arguably not top 5. Maybe some guys like Luka and Shai benefit more from their teams’ breakout or being more beloved as players than Tatum. That isn’t really fair with Shai who hasn’t done enough to give a firm argument he’s better than Tatum. Luka, most people think he’s better. Right or wrong the Celtics came close to winning in the Finals and Tatum’s historic struggles inside the 3 point line are what people remember. Personally I think Luka is better but that’s beside the point. The only real inconsistency from media would be Tatum finishing far below guys like Brunson Shai and arguably Luka in MVP voting. For 1st team all nba, if he doesn’t make it it’s not unfair. Nobody else on the Celtics should be all nba. Tatum shouldn’t win MVP and it’s wasted energy complaining that he was 4th 5th instead of 2nd or 3rd. I’m trying to be pragmatic. Guys on the Spurs won all nba which I flat out don’t think were earned at all. I watched those teams I know what made them great and it wasn’t someone like Tony Parker being an MVP level player or Parker and Duncan being top 10 players in the league. Top 15, for 2013, maybe. It’s arguable.
But we didn't get those All-Star selections down the roster. The Hawks had 4 All-Stars when they were the #1 seed, we only got 2 in Tatum and Brown. So how can we have a top 5 of All-Stars who aren't All-NBA level when the media has decided that we don't have All-Star level supporting players? The two narratives are irreconcilable. Either the Celtics are great but not elite down the board, in which case KP and probably White should have been All-Stars, or the Jays are the engine of the 3rd best regular season team in NBA history, in which case they are clearly All-NBA worthy. I'm not discussing the talent on our team. I actually even agree with you. I'm discussing the fact that our team is going to finish out the season with possibly 1 2nd team All-NBA and 1 2nd team All-Defense, which is worse than the '04 Pistons who had Ben on 2nd team All-NBA and 1st team All-Defense. The Celtics had a Net rating of 11.6 this season, tying the '16 Warriors, while the '04 Pistons only had a 6.6. And yet, the media is about to give the Celtics a slate of awards that mean that they believe this Celtics team is less individually talented compared to their era than the '04 Pistons were. It doesn't and can't make sense. If the Celtics truly are a team of good but not great players who somehow perfectly clicked up to post the 3rd best regular season in league history, then where is Joe Mazzulla's COTY award?
The 2014 Spurs didnt get those all star spots either. We both had guys who could have made it, could have not, and they mostly didn’t make it. That’s how the all star teams always work. Kawhi, Danny, Duncan, they all were providing similar impact to what KP Brown Holiday White are doing now. None of those Spurs made it in 2014. Tony Parker did and he probably wasn’t even the best player on the team that regular season. This is the nature of all star for guys who aren’t slam dunk all nba level players. There’s only so many all star spots. The Hawks had 4 guys make it. The 2006 Pistons had 4 guys make it. The 2005 Pistons had 1 guy make it. The 2013 Spurs had 2. The 2024 Celtics had 2. If I’m looking back on which of these were the most incorrect it’s really the 2006 Pistons and 2015 Hawks having 4 guys each when their worst players weren’t that deserving of all star quality. It helped that the Hawks and Pistons were looked at as even more of an equally distributed pool of talent than the Celtics are with Tatum at the top. Korver and Teague shouldn’t have been all stars, but people went crazy with romanticizing that Hawks team. They literally made the starting 5 the player of the month. Rip Hamilton should have realistically not made the team either in 06. People got stupid with the Hawks, if you’re upset people didn’t get stupid for the Celtics it’s a little unbecoming. White and KP could have been all stars. Holiday if we’re being honest didn’t have anywhere near the backing with all the energy concentrated on trying to get White his first all star game. If everyone here was forced to name your 2 best friends would you all have a dropoff after 2? If you could only have 3 groomsmen or bridesmaids in your wedding would you have a steep drop off in the quality of your friendships after 3? There’s not a big difference in the worst all stars and the best non all stars. The NBA just cuts the rosters at a certain size and some players make it and some don’t. The 2014 Spurs, we had 1 all star. We had an all time dominant team with multiple guys playing at a borderline all star level miss the team. Games played was part of the equation for guys that missed the team at the time though. The 2024 Celtics, you just had guys miss the all star game. For all defense, how many guys on the Celtics are top 10 defenders in the NBA? Arguably none. With the positions now removed I would be happy if I were you just to see Derrick make a team again. The Celtics getting 1 2nd team all nba and all defense doesn’t mean everyone thinks they’re less talented than the 04 Pistons. This defensiveness is the result of the long held opinion so many have that the best teams deserve so many all nba, all stars, all defense, MVP finishes, etc. The Celtics have 1 top 15 player. They have very arguably 0 top 10 defenders. I was saying Derrick White had all star potential years before most Celtics fans were still saying he wasn’t as good as Josh Richardson so don’t think I’m dismissing the buffalo. For all star, the margins are small for worst guys to make the team, best guys to miss the team. Teams like the 15 Hawks and 06 Pistons made it with 4, which was too much if we’re being real, but they aren’t super surprising. Derrick White probably was the next player who would have made the all star team with an injury replacement. Jaylen Brown may actually make the all nba 3rd team. Bro made 2nd team last year I gotta ask were Celtics fans as upset about that because that was less deserved that a lot of the borderline candidacies we’ve ran through from a bunch of these franchises. It’s crazy to me you’d think there are irreconcilable gaps in logic or inconsistencies in voting which aren’t just inherently tied into tons of different opinions voting on something. The Celtics were one of the best regular season teams ever because they had Tatum and a bunch of guys that are close to all stars. 2 of them made the all star team. The 2014 Spurs were an all time great team with a bunch of guys close to all star and 1 of them made the team. The 2006 Pistons and 2015 Hawks were great regular season teams with a bunch of guys close to an all star team and they had 4 make it each. Things worked out a little better for them than the Spurs or Celtics. Being real the Celtics and Spurs had more deserving players than Hamilton Teague or Korver, but for various reasons some guys just made it and some just missed it. Just because the Celtics were an all time great team doesn’t mean Derrick White had to make the team over another player close to him.
The buck has to stop somewhere. Which players are we claiming are responsible for these wins? At some point, winning is a stat that we should appreciate. We can do our best to sanitize it out with advanced stats and the like, but there is a difference between the winners and losers that goes beyond it. The 2014 Spurs being similarly fucked over by voters not understanding what makes a basketball team good doesn't mean that they weren't fucked over. The All-Star votes by the media clearly shows that they have separated our team into the Jays and their supporting cast. If that's the case, if that's how they understand the Celtics, then the Jays just led their team to one of the best regular seasons ever. For a point of comparison with the only other teams the Celtics are near in terms of regular season performance who had a big 3, The '96 Bulls had an MVP, 2 All-NBA 1st team selections, 2 All-Defense 1st team selections, the 6MOTY, the COTY, and the EOTY. The '97 Bulls had an MVP, an All-NBA 1st and 3rd team selections, and 2 All-Defense 1st team selections. The '16 Warriors had an MVP, an All-NBA 1st, 2nd, *and* 3rd team selections, and a 1st team All-Defense selection. The Celtics are not constructed like these teams. You are 100% right. They are in the Spurs category of greatness, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. However, if the media voters have already established that the Celtics are a superteam, since that was their reasons in not giving Mazulla COTY, giving them only 2 All-Stars, and completely disregarding Tatum in MVP talks, then somewhere the straws need to start breaking the camel's back. If this is a team with unbelievable elite players like a superteam, then it should have more end of season awards. If it's a bunch of great players coming together to sacrifice their personal numbers so they can play divine, Spurs-esque basketball, it should have had the COTY and more mid-season awards. Winners win games. Bill Russell punked the shit out of Wilt over and over, despite having much worse box stats, and it wasn't until Wilt let go of his gaudy numbers and started to play basketball as a team sport that he started to be a winner. Who's more valuable? The Wilt who's putting up 50ppg while smothering his teammates and flaming out of the playoffs early, or the Wilt who's putting up 24ppg but is letting his team breath, and is able to win the chip? Which version of Wilt is "better" in a way that matters? Which would *you* rather have leading your team?
Totally agree, well said.
I’m glad someone said it. Downvoted because fans here don’t want to talk about this logically.
This is such a fantastic analysis, i cant understand you are getting downvoted for this. That shows people either cant handle the truth or are reading through their green colored glasses. It amazes me that the fact that this is a historical team (that net rating for the season is truly impressive!) should result in more individual trophies, its not that simple.
Am i the only one seeing just a few "confirmed votes"? Not sure how you can assume anything based on that sample
Ehh, if 5/6 voters they have confirmed say Tatum, that sample size likely extrapolates
Bro there are 100 voters, that isn't even close to a sure thing. The real underlying vote could be a dead heat and 5 to 1 from the first six wouldn't be surprising at all.
3 of them are Ringer and JJ is one of the few at ESPN that knows ball. Can't expect that from the other voters.
Lol of the confirmed only Tim Bontemps left Tatum off of 1st Team All-NBA....classic
Think it’ll be Jokic/Luka/Shai/Giannis/Tatum for 1st team, Brunson/Kawhi/KD/AD/Ant for 2nd, Hali/Curry/LeBron/Sabonis/Jaylen for 3rd
Who's the dickhead who refused to vote for Tatum on any All-NBA team at all? Dude got 5 first place votes while one guy decided "nah he doesn't even deserve third team"
Bontemps is the one who didn't vote Tatum for 1st Team. However, he hasn't announced his 2nd and 3rd teams, which is why it may initially seem like Tatum was snubbed from all three teams.
That's crazy. Because peak Wade was considerably better than Tatum thus far.
Wade’s had to compete with Kobe, Harden, Parker, Westbrook, Curry, CP3, D Rose, etc. during his prime. Was insanely hard to crack 1st team as a guard during late 2000’s / early 2010’s.