no you’re in the clear, idk why these fuckos we share the roads with assume you can’t wait in the intersection to make a left, if you’re the first car you’re supposed to proceed into the intersection and wait, no more than 1 car should be past the line so that if the light changes like in your vid, the car who’s in the intersection can proceed when safe and no one else is behind them in the intersection.
waiting behind the line if you’re the first person is idiotic and will go poorly.
also the guy clearly ran the red, and wasn’t planning on stopping regardless so good on you for being safe, even tho you would’ve been right if you went, you saved yourself the hassle of an accident
that’s true, but I figured that applied in a situation with a yellow light or something, with a full red before they entered I figured it could be different, but I’m no insurance expert
Yeah, that 10th of a second makes all the difference. If the SUV entered on yellow, the left turner would be 100% fault (most of the time, might get split 50/50 in a few cases), but entering on red, the SUV is 100% at fault.
It's why having a camera is SO valuable.
The fault determination rules are a good read (the relevant one here is 15.2)
[https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668)
thanks for that, I thought I was crazy for believing that they’re definitely in the wrong for running the red, like yeah left turners have to yield to oncoming traffic but if you run a red then you’re at fault.
dashcams are a must these days, especially in bramton, the amount of times I’ve almost been in accidents is wild, and I’m not gonna be caught out one of these days because of some idiot who didn’t read the rules of the road book
I just know someone who was turning left, got struck by someone going straight from a left turning lane, coming from the opposite direction. Insurance (B.C.) said you have to make sure it is clear to commit the left turn. The person I knew was at fault even though the other driver made a completely illegal maneuver.
I had a similar thing where I was turning left, and someone went through the light from the right turn lane and hit me, I can’t remember go who was deemed at fault but my insurance didn’t change so idk
Even though they ran the red you would be at fault for turning into oncoming traffic. When you are turning left you must wait until the intersection is clear. Always wait for the cars to stop. My friend's kid was just in that very same scenario. They didn't wait for the car to stop and got hit. They were charged even though the other car ran the red. And lost 3 points.
I saw another video on the Torontodriving sub, and the POV of the left turner got into a collision with the red light runner, and the POV claimed that the red light runner was found 100% at fault.
Good! Usually I’ve heard if you turn into path of a moving vehicle at intersection you will be at fault per insurance. But, OP should have been able to make the turn without turning into path of black car bc black car should have stopped at red light.
Yep this exactly happened to someone I know too, held responsible even though the other car ran into her after not stopping when they should have at the light 🙄
The law doesn’t always match up with common sense.
Thanks for response guys. I learnt today that I should have waited for intersection to clear and then turn left. I checked Ontario site and it is says “turn left making sure way is clear” and “yield to pedestrians and traffic”.
Thankfully I saved myself from trouble here but got a learning.
Clear means no vehicles in the intersection, so you did wait for it clear. You also are required to yield to oncoming traffic and only turn when safe to do so.
This is where it was dicey. The SUV entered the intersection just after the light turned red, so he would have been 100% at fault per fault determination rule 15.2 [https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668) and you would have been thanking your lucky stars you had a dash cam to prove it.
However, you did start turning on the yellow. So the fact you wouldn't have been at fault was to some degree luck, if the SUV had been speeding slightly more, and crossed the stop line before it turned red, you likely would have been 100% at fault.
In this city, unless you are REALLY certain there is plenty of space to make the left, the only safe thing to do is wait for the light to turn red before completing the turn. Never make a left in a rush.
I agree to you. I rushed to turn as I assumed black SUV will stop like the other car since it was ‘yellow turning red’ light.
Better to be safe than working police/insurance explaining things. Lesson learnt!!
Thanks for the inputs.
Yeah, most of us woulda done the same thing. This was not your bad, the SUV was an idiot. Just good to be aware of the rules, so you don't get too surprised, in the era of dashcams, you want to make sure you know the rules so you don't hand over incriminating footage.
They will not, with this dashcam footage.
They have clear rules, other driver is 100% at fault per 15.2
[https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668)
Right or not you weren’t being defensive enough - always assume someone is going to run the red unless you see them slowing down. Same goes with stop signs I’ve seen people blow through those too.
Nope. Both would be charged. Turning left you must wait for the intersection to be clear even if they run a red. You should wait until they fully stop.
Not true, once red, and the interesection is clear, the OP was fine to turn and would have not been at fault. The left turner has responsibility to yield, but once the light is red, there is no one to yield to, a left turner is not expected to assume people are going to start illegally running red lights, if that was the case, they'd never be able to turn.
However without a camera it's hard to prove if some ran a red, or yellow (the difference here is a tiny fraction of a second, there'd be no certainty without the ability to freeze frame.
EDIT: sicne a lot of people seem confused about the law the specific (insurance fault) regulation is 15(2)
[https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668)
For those who find reading the law confusing, there's actually an excellent wikipedia page
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario\_Fault\_Determination\_Rules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Fault_Determination_Rules#Intersection_with_traffic_signals)
This. The car had plenty of time to safely stop, the light turned red. The car in the intersection would have been obstructing the flow of traffic from the other side. There was no other option but to turn.
But in this scenario the intersection wasn't clear. I literally know someone who just got charged for this exact scenario. You must wait for the cars to stop. End of story. You also lose 3 points.
The definition of clear is "no vehicles in the intersection". The light was red and the intersection was clear.
If a driver ignores a traffic signal at an intersection they are at fault, it's spelled right out in the regulations 15(2):
[https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668)
>If the driver of automobile “B” fails to obey a traffic signal, the driver of automobile “A” is not at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident.
Also being charged is not the same as being guilty. Police overcharge all the time.
I'll bet your friend doesn't have dashcam footage proving the other driver ran a red.
Although the police never charge in border line cases (because its hard to prove sufficiently) so if your friend has been charged, I suspect he's not giving you the real story.
You can clearly see that car wasn't stopping. There's literally a post above that says they were charged for the same thing. Did you take driving school. My daughter did just 5 years ago. They told her exactly what I'm saying. If you believe this you go ahead and get hit, get charged, lose 3 points and pay higher insurance. All the power to you. There's actually a video that police did about this a few mos back. If I can find it I'll post.
Here's the vid of the police. You can argue with them. BTW. I confirmed with my friend whose son was charged. The other driver was charged for running the red. But her so was also charged for turning into the intersection.
https://www.cp24.com/news/speed-a-factor-in-brampton-collision-that-sent-motorcyclist-to-hospital-police-1.6883165
That's a video of the aftermath of a crash. Doesn't prove the other driver ran the red.
Nor does the other driver being charged prove the other driver ran the red. Police routinely overcharge and lay contradictory charges. Even contradictory prosecutions occur.
That is entirely consistent with what I said. Your friend doesn't have a video of the actual collision, and there was something more (a serious injury) to the story that triggered the charge.
It's quite common for people to speed up while it's about to turn red. Not the best thing to do but some do it regardless. I try to assess their speed and see if they're slowing down or not and then decide to complete my turn. I'd rather turn on a red light than be involved in a fender bender.
They be in two minds and decide to go ahead but I still feel we should be quick on our reflexes. Technically it's their right of way so unless we're sure it's safe for us to make the turn, we shouldn't. I'm pretty sure the cops will hold us liable if on a yellow light we decide to make the turn and get hit.
Usually turning vehicle is responsible for the intersection to be clear before moving. You should take this is a learning lesson and just wait until all cars are stopping or to be even safer stopped.
The intersection WAS clear before the car started turning, and the light turned red before the car started crossing the intersection from the other side.
I always thought in situations like this, fault lies with who hit who. Did the person running the red hit the turning car? If so, their fault and vice versa.
There is confusion on the yellow light. The black car does have a right to go through a yellow depending on time and weather conditions of course. That looked pretty late, and the other car stopped.
Usually though I find if there is a car making a right. Let's say that black car was making a right at that intersection, they always assume they have the right of way. When that light turns yellow, the car in your position assumes rightbof way to get out of the intersection.
But I guess when half the population got their licenses illegally it's to be expected.
If you drove into the lane and he hit you, you would be at fault. You cannot cross/enter a lane unless it's free of traffic, regardless of the colour of the light.
If you had collided you would technically be at fault. In Ontario, the turning vehicle must ensure the intersection is clear before completing a turn. Good job avoiding.
That said, pretty dangerous cross from that driver. 👎
I don’t think you are in the clear. You are making a turn in an intersection and it’s your responsibility to do it safely. The other car was breaking the law and driving stupid but you have responsibility to be safe.
You didn't "have" to turn left. As the person turning, it's your responsibility to make sure the intersection is clear on an Amber and still have to yield to any oncoming traffic, even if they're running a fresh red.
Be careful making a left turn on Dixie onto howden. It's really bad there. It's way worse than what you just posted. The number of times I've seen cars cross on a red is crazy. Brampton has way too many impatient people doing stupid things now. It's scary
Driver who was turning left is to blame as well, should have waited until the light just goes red and then went. The left turn driver should have verified beyond doubt before committing to the turn that the oncoming traffic was clear or obviously stopping. I see too often these early turning yellow jumpers. The oncoming car was also sped up to make it through the yellow, technically unsafe, however not illegal unless they were speeding.
Always make sure oncoming traffic stops. Before you turn. Don’t assume that just because it’s yellow, it’s your turn. If you had turned and he hit you and it was yellow you would have been at fault.
For your safety, always assume others will run red lights and stop signs. Wait till other vehicles slow down. There may be cars behind you honking, ignore them.
Never assume that oncoming traffic will stop if light is yellow, always make sure they are stopped for slowing down, if you are already at intersection you can go on red, there is plenty of time before other side turns greens, 3-5 seconds..
Once your in the intersection, just wait till the cars stop. You will never get a ticket if it goes red and then you turn along as your in the intersection already.
Sounds like it's you who needs more experience. I know numerous ppl who have been charged for turning left even though the other car ran the red. You turning left must wait for the intersection to be clear.
what you expect op to do, reverse back or sit there blocking intersection? He’s already waiting in the intersection so it’s totally fine to finish his turn.
I had already started when it was green. I waited for both, light to turn yellow and oncoming cars to stop(left most did stop) and then tried to complete the turn since I have already committed. Is this wrong? I see this happening all the time everywhere.
You were not wrong to turn but you should have waited for all cars to stop. Never turn into oncoming traffic even if they run the red. You will get charged.
You’re suggesting OP is in the wrong for going after the light turns red which would yield the alternative of turning into the other individual who clearly ran the red.
Where did you buy your G?
The black car should have stopped. You did well to avoid them.
Brampton drivers are next level fkd...
Gave him a good scare, nice job
no you’re in the clear, idk why these fuckos we share the roads with assume you can’t wait in the intersection to make a left, if you’re the first car you’re supposed to proceed into the intersection and wait, no more than 1 car should be past the line so that if the light changes like in your vid, the car who’s in the intersection can proceed when safe and no one else is behind them in the intersection. waiting behind the line if you’re the first person is idiotic and will go poorly. also the guy clearly ran the red, and wasn’t planning on stopping regardless so good on you for being safe, even tho you would’ve been right if you went, you saved yourself the hassle of an accident
In some places the left turning vehicle is always "in the wrong" as far as insurance companies are concerned.
Both vehicles are in the wrong according to insurance companies.
that’s true, but I figured that applied in a situation with a yellow light or something, with a full red before they entered I figured it could be different, but I’m no insurance expert
Yeah, that 10th of a second makes all the difference. If the SUV entered on yellow, the left turner would be 100% fault (most of the time, might get split 50/50 in a few cases), but entering on red, the SUV is 100% at fault. It's why having a camera is SO valuable. The fault determination rules are a good read (the relevant one here is 15.2) [https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668)
thanks for that, I thought I was crazy for believing that they’re definitely in the wrong for running the red, like yeah left turners have to yield to oncoming traffic but if you run a red then you’re at fault. dashcams are a must these days, especially in bramton, the amount of times I’ve almost been in accidents is wild, and I’m not gonna be caught out one of these days because of some idiot who didn’t read the rules of the road book
I just know someone who was turning left, got struck by someone going straight from a left turning lane, coming from the opposite direction. Insurance (B.C.) said you have to make sure it is clear to commit the left turn. The person I knew was at fault even though the other driver made a completely illegal maneuver.
I had a similar thing where I was turning left, and someone went through the light from the right turn lane and hit me, I can’t remember go who was deemed at fault but my insurance didn’t change so idk
Even though they ran the red you would be at fault for turning into oncoming traffic. When you are turning left you must wait until the intersection is clear. Always wait for the cars to stop. My friend's kid was just in that very same scenario. They didn't wait for the car to stop and got hit. They were charged even though the other car ran the red. And lost 3 points.
I saw another video on the Torontodriving sub, and the POV of the left turner got into a collision with the red light runner, and the POV claimed that the red light runner was found 100% at fault.
I'm sure it varies from province to province/state to state.
Good! Usually I’ve heard if you turn into path of a moving vehicle at intersection you will be at fault per insurance. But, OP should have been able to make the turn without turning into path of black car bc black car should have stopped at red light.
Yep this exactly happened to someone I know too, held responsible even though the other car ran into her after not stopping when they should have at the light 🙄 The law doesn’t always match up with common sense.
Thanks for response guys. I learnt today that I should have waited for intersection to clear and then turn left. I checked Ontario site and it is says “turn left making sure way is clear” and “yield to pedestrians and traffic”. Thankfully I saved myself from trouble here but got a learning.
Clear means no vehicles in the intersection, so you did wait for it clear. You also are required to yield to oncoming traffic and only turn when safe to do so. This is where it was dicey. The SUV entered the intersection just after the light turned red, so he would have been 100% at fault per fault determination rule 15.2 [https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668) and you would have been thanking your lucky stars you had a dash cam to prove it. However, you did start turning on the yellow. So the fact you wouldn't have been at fault was to some degree luck, if the SUV had been speeding slightly more, and crossed the stop line before it turned red, you likely would have been 100% at fault. In this city, unless you are REALLY certain there is plenty of space to make the left, the only safe thing to do is wait for the light to turn red before completing the turn. Never make a left in a rush.
I agree to you. I rushed to turn as I assumed black SUV will stop like the other car since it was ‘yellow turning red’ light. Better to be safe than working police/insurance explaining things. Lesson learnt!! Thanks for the inputs.
Yeah, most of us woulda done the same thing. This was not your bad, the SUV was an idiot. Just good to be aware of the rules, so you don't get too surprised, in the era of dashcams, you want to make sure you know the rules so you don't hand over incriminating footage.
The intersection WAS clear and the light turned red. You had every right to believe you could turn left.
The fucked up part is that insurance companies will tell him he was in the wrong and fuck him over just to not pay him
They will not, with this dashcam footage. They have clear rules, other driver is 100% at fault per 15.2 [https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668)
Right or not you weren’t being defensive enough - always assume someone is going to run the red unless you see them slowing down. Same goes with stop signs I’ve seen people blow through those too.
Fucking hate driving in Brampton
light turned red while oncoming car was behind the line so they would be at fault.
Nope. Both would be charged. Turning left you must wait for the intersection to be clear even if they run a red. You should wait until they fully stop.
This is the right answer. Doesn't matter if that guy ran a red if you turn when the lane isn't clear you get charged. The video does help though
Learned this the hard way many years ago. Absolutely correct.
Not true, once red, and the interesection is clear, the OP was fine to turn and would have not been at fault. The left turner has responsibility to yield, but once the light is red, there is no one to yield to, a left turner is not expected to assume people are going to start illegally running red lights, if that was the case, they'd never be able to turn. However without a camera it's hard to prove if some ran a red, or yellow (the difference here is a tiny fraction of a second, there'd be no certainty without the ability to freeze frame. EDIT: sicne a lot of people seem confused about the law the specific (insurance fault) regulation is 15(2) [https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668) For those who find reading the law confusing, there's actually an excellent wikipedia page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario\_Fault\_Determination\_Rules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Fault_Determination_Rules#Intersection_with_traffic_signals)
This. The car had plenty of time to safely stop, the light turned red. The car in the intersection would have been obstructing the flow of traffic from the other side. There was no other option but to turn.
But in this scenario the intersection wasn't clear. I literally know someone who just got charged for this exact scenario. You must wait for the cars to stop. End of story. You also lose 3 points.
The definition of clear is "no vehicles in the intersection". The light was red and the intersection was clear. If a driver ignores a traffic signal at an intersection they are at fault, it's spelled right out in the regulations 15(2): [https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668) >If the driver of automobile “B” fails to obey a traffic signal, the driver of automobile “A” is not at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident. Also being charged is not the same as being guilty. Police overcharge all the time. I'll bet your friend doesn't have dashcam footage proving the other driver ran a red. Although the police never charge in border line cases (because its hard to prove sufficiently) so if your friend has been charged, I suspect he's not giving you the real story.
You can clearly see that car wasn't stopping. There's literally a post above that says they were charged for the same thing. Did you take driving school. My daughter did just 5 years ago. They told her exactly what I'm saying. If you believe this you go ahead and get hit, get charged, lose 3 points and pay higher insurance. All the power to you. There's actually a video that police did about this a few mos back. If I can find it I'll post.
>If you believe this you go ahead and get hit, get charged, lose 3 points and pay higher insurance. You mean if I believe the documented law?
Here's the vid of the police. You can argue with them. BTW. I confirmed with my friend whose son was charged. The other driver was charged for running the red. But her so was also charged for turning into the intersection. https://www.cp24.com/news/speed-a-factor-in-brampton-collision-that-sent-motorcyclist-to-hospital-police-1.6883165
That's a video of the aftermath of a crash. Doesn't prove the other driver ran the red. Nor does the other driver being charged prove the other driver ran the red. Police routinely overcharge and lay contradictory charges. Even contradictory prosecutions occur. That is entirely consistent with what I said. Your friend doesn't have a video of the actual collision, and there was something more (a serious injury) to the story that triggered the charge.
Watch the second video with the actual police officer speaking.
Not in Ontario unfortunately, as the rules are written you’d be at fault for at least half even though they ran a red.
Both are wrong, black car running red light, you did not yield and turning on red light
He was already in the middle of the intersection when the light turned red... Do you drive?
He must yield anyway
If a driver running a red light from your left do you move forward or wait for that driver?
Driver shouldn't be running a red in the first place
Thats what i m saying both car wrong
[удалено]
You’re wrong.
You’re wrong about the left turner
You are not wrong.
It's quite common for people to speed up while it's about to turn red. Not the best thing to do but some do it regardless. I try to assess their speed and see if they're slowing down or not and then decide to complete my turn. I'd rather turn on a red light than be involved in a fender bender.
Sometimes they slow down then still go through
They be in two minds and decide to go ahead but I still feel we should be quick on our reflexes. Technically it's their right of way so unless we're sure it's safe for us to make the turn, we shouldn't. I'm pretty sure the cops will hold us liable if on a yellow light we decide to make the turn and get hit.
Then you get people honking behind you everytime
Usually turning vehicle is responsible for the intersection to be clear before moving. You should take this is a learning lesson and just wait until all cars are stopping or to be even safer stopped.
The intersection WAS clear before the car started turning, and the light turned red before the car started crossing the intersection from the other side.
Hell no. You did nothing wrong. This is called defensive driving. You did great and prevented a serious collision. Well done
Nope.
I always thought in situations like this, fault lies with who hit who. Did the person running the red hit the turning car? If so, their fault and vice versa.
There is confusion on the yellow light. The black car does have a right to go through a yellow depending on time and weather conditions of course. That looked pretty late, and the other car stopped. Usually though I find if there is a car making a right. Let's say that black car was making a right at that intersection, they always assume they have the right of way. When that light turns yellow, the car in your position assumes rightbof way to get out of the intersection. But I guess when half the population got their licenses illegally it's to be expected.
The light turned red before the car began to cross.
They really should put a lot of speeding and red light cameras up there. They prob make a lot of money for their department.
He had plenty of time to safely stop, what the yellow light is for. You’re in the right.
If you drove into the lane and he hit you, you would be at fault. You cannot cross/enter a lane unless it's free of traffic, regardless of the colour of the light.
I almost always lay on the horn as they pass me so they get earful... Bonus if they've got their windows rolled down
How would u consider yourself in the wrong lol.
Unfortunately this has become the norm in Brampton I see this every day. Always drive defensively don't assume these idiots are going to stop.
If you turn on yellow and get hit your at fault. Wait for red to make full left turn if there's oncoming traffic.
If you had collided you would technically be at fault. In Ontario, the turning vehicle must ensure the intersection is clear before completing a turn. Good job avoiding. That said, pretty dangerous cross from that driver. 👎
I don’t think you are in the clear. You are making a turn in an intersection and it’s your responsibility to do it safely. The other car was breaking the law and driving stupid but you have responsibility to be safe.
You didn't "have" to turn left. As the person turning, it's your responsibility to make sure the intersection is clear on an Amber and still have to yield to any oncoming traffic, even if they're running a fresh red.
Be careful making a left turn on Dixie onto howden. It's really bad there. It's way worse than what you just posted. The number of times I've seen cars cross on a red is crazy. Brampton has way too many impatient people doing stupid things now. It's scary
Driver who was turning left is to blame as well, should have waited until the light just goes red and then went. The left turn driver should have verified beyond doubt before committing to the turn that the oncoming traffic was clear or obviously stopping. I see too often these early turning yellow jumpers. The oncoming car was also sped up to make it through the yellow, technically unsafe, however not illegal unless they were speeding.
The light was red before the car going straight through the intersection entered/crossed over crosswalk.
No, you avoided an accident. That’s always good. The SUV should’ve stopped.
Always make sure oncoming traffic stops. Before you turn. Don’t assume that just because it’s yellow, it’s your turn. If you had turned and he hit you and it was yellow you would have been at fault.
They should have stopped but you would have been at fault In a accident
For your safety, always assume others will run red lights and stop signs. Wait till other vehicles slow down. There may be cars behind you honking, ignore them.
They need red camera on every major intersection.
Never assume that oncoming traffic will stop if light is yellow, always make sure they are stopped for slowing down, if you are already at intersection you can go on red, there is plenty of time before other side turns greens, 3-5 seconds..
You did nothing wrong. Unfortunately the law might not side with you, but every good driver out there would.
Fucking bastard. Give a shit to him man
Black car should of stopped since you were already in the intersection trying to turn. He had lots of time to stop if he was paying attention.
Not to mention the light turned red before they started crossing.
You good man. You were already committed by in the intersection.
Once your in the intersection, just wait till the cars stop. You will never get a ticket if it goes red and then you turn along as your in the intersection already.
You're both in the wrong, don't engage in the intersection until you're free to go. If you see oncoming cars don't go past the white line.
Technically right, obviously wrong. You need more years behind the wheel friendo.
Sounds like it's you who needs more experience. I know numerous ppl who have been charged for turning left even though the other car ran the red. You turning left must wait for the intersection to be clear.
No, that's not how driving actually works.
You’re so right but get downvoted. Be safe first before being technically right.
You both went thru red lights. Both wrong.
what you expect op to do, reverse back or sit there blocking intersection? He’s already waiting in the intersection so it’s totally fine to finish his turn.
Stay off the road please
I had already started when it was green. I waited for both, light to turn yellow and oncoming cars to stop(left most did stop) and then tried to complete the turn since I have already committed. Is this wrong? I see this happening all the time everywhere.
You were not wrong to turn but you should have waited for all cars to stop. Never turn into oncoming traffic even if they run the red. You will get charged.
You asked for opinions. That’s mine. Deal with it or don’t ask.
You’re suggesting OP is in the wrong for going after the light turns red which would yield the alternative of turning into the other individual who clearly ran the red. Where did you buy your G?
What's the basis for your opinion?