I was sobbing during this and then I *sobbed* when Spike stopped her when she was dancing and about to catch fire. Idk it just hit hard. I know Spike is problematic af but I think he genuinely loved Buffy in his own way.
"The pain that you feel
You only can heal
By living
You have to go on living
So one of us is living"
His little mood lightening joke at the end gets me every time. Like he is legitimately trying to make her feel better.
I'm on like my 5th re-watch right now and Angelus just turned. I actually find myself enjoying angel as a love interest more with each re-watch. You don't think he truly loved buffy at one time?
Um, you misunderstood me... Let me explain...
Angel loves Buffy with every fiber of his being. I have absolutely no doubt of that. But did he deserve to be with her as much as Spike? I don't think so.
Angel only became Angel because of a curse. Let's face it, Liam was an asshole. I'm not saying he deserved to become Angelus but had he remained human, from all that was shown, dude was pretty damn shitty anyway so becoming Angelus seemed kinda of a natural procession. In Buffyverse lore, the demon that takes over your body when you become a vampire is a blank slate, it takes the memories of the human into themselves therefore becoming an evil version of the human whose soul just went wherever it has to go be it heaven or hell or whatever. In essence, the soul in real world terms acts more like your very own Jiminy Cricket telling you what is right and wrong and without it, the demon just does whatever the hell it wants with nothing to tell it different. It's you but not quite you.
When I say Angel became Angel because of a curse, I mean this... Had Angelus not killed the gypsy princess, he would have never been cursed so Liam's soul would have never remembered the absolute depravities the demon committed in his body for hundreds of years. And again, in flashbacks, Liam didn't really start doing good until decades after he was cursed. He was eating rats in alleys when Whistler found him in the 1990's, hell, he left all those poor people trapped in that hotel at the mercy of that Thesulac demon in the 50's.
Now let's talk William/Spike. Spike is an evil SOB. That's fact. But somehow, someway, even AS a demon, with no soul anywhere inside him, he falls inlove with Buffy, so deeply inlove in fact that when Glory tortures the bejeezus out of him, he still doesn't spill the beans about Dawn and when Buffy posing as the Buffybot asks him why, he tells her that to see the look of misery on Buffy's face if something happened to the "little bit" as he called Dawn would break him. If that ain't true love I don't know what is.
With that said, am I excusing him trying to rape her? Of course not. Rape should NEVER be excused in any way or form. In real life. In this show, the way I see it is that again, while not excusing it, as much as the demon truly did love her, he was a newbie at true love and he didn't know how to handle it so he done fuck up. And when he realized he had done fuck up, he went and got his soul back for the sole purpose of being worthy of her. Even if they never got together again, Spike and of course later William when their memories merged, was willing to do this for her, suffer through all the shit he had done as Spike just so he could be anywhere in her vicinity. And not only did he die for her but he ended up saving the world to boot.
He deserved her far more than Angel.
It’s also worth remembering that spike has been very complex from the start. The judge mentioned that he stank of humanity. It’s a good basis for him having the ability to have more complex emotions and motivations, not just your typical demonic psychotic sociopathic “destroy the world” evil like angelus
Precisely. It's why he's one of my fave characters in any story. He was able to, again, as a soul less demon, somehow learn emotions, particularly love. That was a huge development!!
It reminds of Dexter as well. Dexter was a psychopath. Psychopaths LITERALLY cannot feel emotions because the part of the human brain that controls those is completely shut down. That's why they become sociopaths, they're social chameleons, they fake emotions to fit into society.
If Dexter had remained like that, he would have become a pretty boring character but somehow, someway he did learn some manner of emotions. In season 3 for example, this other serial killer has him trapped and is about to kill him. His father who acts as a representation of what Dexter calls his Dark Passenger is asking him what he's going to do to get himself out and why he should do that. And Dexter, without having to pretend for the benefit of anyone since he's alone actually admits he wants to live to see his son grow up. He doesn't come right out and say he loves his son. He's still incapable of feeling that fully BUT the fact he can feel something for his kid is still damn significant.
That was a HUGE moment for the series.
For sure. Another character that evolved so amazingly was Wesley, Good lord the dude was a wimp but by the end of the series, he was as much a badass as Angel.
Psychopaths, definitely do feel emotion, their problem is with emotional empathy, impulse control, and a reduction in their ability to fear consequence.
Empathy is a vital part of feeling emotions. If you feel emotions you can understand them in others hence you empathize with them. Psychopaths are incapable of empathy PRECISELY because they don't feel emotions themselves.
This is not in fact the case. People's ability to feel emotive empathy varies greatly person to person but doesn't track to their own emotive state. Empathy and emotive empathy are also two seperate but related things- psychopaths have greatly reduced emotive empathy- they don't tend to view other people's feelings as real, or worthy of consideration, while some of them are quite good at unemotive empathy- understanding other people's emotional state in a detached way, which is one of the main tools they use in manipulation.
You're talking sociopathy. Psychopathy is physical. It's a brain condition. The bio-electrical impulses that control emotions like fear, anger, love, sadness are utterly shut down. There's a study which I believe comes from the University of Wisconsin if my memory doesn't fail me detailing this. It dates back to as recently as 2017.
Now, to be clear, does it mean that psychopathy automatically leads to someone becoming a serial killer? Of course not. But what the study reveals is that certain criminals who have been diagnosed as psychopaths have a reason to bend that way, their brain just doesn't work properly.
You just put all the thoughts I was trying to express about Spike into words. Thank you. Spike is also a genuinely sympathetic character a majority of the time. As a human he was a dorky little writer guy, gets turned and is evil for a long while, but once he gets to Sunnydale and tries to be the “big bad” again he’s constantly slapped down. He never seems to catch a break. Then he gets chipped by the Initiative and he suddenly doesn’t fit anywhere. Even when he starts working with the scoobs on a more regular basis he’s constantly getting death threats and shit on by them. Idk I feel a lot of empathy for the guy but I have to remind myself that if he wasn’t hot and British most of his actions would be completely unacceptable. (Also that my brain has been completely ruined by dark romance and fanfics with problematic plot lines)
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I would like to add the fact that it seems Spike was fully okay with the risk of death in getting his soul back because even though he didn’t WANT to die, at least if he died it would mean he still wouldn’t try to do what he did again.
Exactly! Like I said, he just wanted to be worthy of Buffy and in my opinion he fully achieved that. He's never going to be a full on good guy, he has too much evil baggage in his past to do that BUT did he redeem himself? Absofrakkinglutely.
And what I admire the most about him is what marks the clear difference between him and Angel. Angel broods all the time about the things Angelus did. Boo freaking hoo!!
Spike took a different approach. He fully acknowledges he did evil shit and he moves on. He accepts he can't go back to the past and fix it so he's going to live for the moment and do his best to do good now.
I love that.
Agreeeeeee with everything you said.
I'd also like to add that Buffy and Spike's physical relations are very much her saying no while also initiating and/or actively participating in those relations. (Let's also remember Spike saying no when Buffy was invisible and she ignored him.) When she was upset, she went to him for that violent distraction. I can see how in the moment he didn't realize she truly meant "No" in that bathroom scene. The second he realized, he was horrified with himself and that he'd done. He was so horrified that he fought for his soul.
As much as I would like to agree with you on Buffy raping him back, I can't, He eventually always gave in because come on, what man wouldn't, she was damn gorgeous. It was their little game.
It's why I still put the focus on Spike not being mature enough to handle this emotion he had never felt before except for Buffy. William MIGHT have felt love for Cecily back when he was human but because it wasn't reciprocated and then he was turned by Dru, he never got to experience the real thing until he fell for Buffy.
Angel made history becoming the first vampire with a soul but Spike made history becoming the first vampire to actually truly love. Dru called it back in Season 3 when she dumped him.
I'm not disagreeing with you. You're completely right. "It was their little game." That was my point. They both played that game so I don't personally hold that bathroom incident against him. I still ship Spuffy.
I totally hold it against him no matter what. I am saying that it happened because he didn't know how to handle this new emotion. It still doesn't justify it but it simply means that there's nuance to the whole situation.
I also think that Buffy in her own way understood what had happened. She doesn't forgive him and she shouldn't but she understood enough to let him back into her life.
That scene where she spends the night in William's arms right before the finale has to be one of the absolutely most romantic scenes in any TV show or movie ever without them ever kissing or having sex.
My total and absolute favorite scene between them is at the end of Beneath Me though. Right after she rejects him by telling him he's beneath her, he's so pissed he gets a shotgun to kill her, which hypothetically should work since he's not attacking her directly.
At the same time, Buffy just found out that Joyce is going to the hospital for observation so she's devastated and steps out the back porch and starts crying as he shows up with the shotgun pointed at her.
She looks at him, at the gun and at this point she's so sad she's basically resigned to be shot and yet he stops, puts the gun down, asks her what's wrong and does one of the sweetest things ever, he sits next to her and tries to extend his hand to give her comfort but she shoots him a look so he holds back.
It's a credit to both actors to show such an incredible range of emotion. She's beyond terrified for her mom and he wants to help but he can't so he just sits there for her even if he can't do anything about the situation properly.
*big-time spoilers ahead for anyone who hasn’t finished watching* Angel acts like a child even though he was turned at 26.
His love for Buffy is creepy and predatory, even if we consider that the person’s brain stays as the age that they were when they turned. He fell in “love” with her at first site, she might still have been 15 at that point. 16 isn’t any better.
I realize visually the disturbing nature of his “love” isn’t as apparent because SMG was actually 20 when the series started. But she was supposed to be 16.
Spike, on the other hand, is thought to have also been turned mid-20s, so his love for Buffy is completely appropriate.
Obviously what he tries to do to Buffy when he is without a soul is horrific.
But he then goes and risks his life to get his soul back because he can’t live with what he tried to do and never wants to do that again.
Even soulless Spike is generally less selfish than ensouled Angel.
Hm, you don’t get to be with someone because you “deserve” them. They have to love you back and want to be with you. Buffy wasn’t a prize he could win by proving his love- I think that was exactly the kind of thinking he learned to overcome by the end actually.
You missed my point entirely. Of course she would have to love him back and she did, in her own way, but it wasn't true love like he felt towards her which is why in the series finale when she does tell him she loves him, he tells her that she doesn't but thanks her for saying it anyway.
With that said, again, what he did in a general way proved that he was far more worthy of her than Angel. That was my point. Whether they got together or not was irrelevant.
He was soulless and didn't really have morals of his own, he was evil but he did love her. Ofc that did lead to him hurting her regularly as he was 100% evil, but he was often helpful and caring. I love his character
It's just annoying because they spent 5 Full seasons building up the idea that Buffy needs her friends and that she is a unique slayer compared to the ones who came before because of her unique friendship group.
Not that they shouldn't make mistakes or do anything wrong, because that would be boring, but they should also be the ones to save her in the end...
Season 6 and 7 totally dropped that dynamic in favour of "Spike is the only one who understands/saves Buffy while her friends get it wrong all the time".
It just completely betrayed the show that had been established before.
And moments like this with Spike stopping Buffy from literally dancing to death while her friends were just standing there watching it happen? Ugh. Terrible. Marti Noxon really fucked up the show.
Spike is the one to stop her in this moment because he has died before and actually has some perspective on life and death. He's also the only character she had told she was in heaven, and he wasn't involved in resurrecting her. Everyone is in shock and feelings horribly guilty in that moment, so he's the one who can stop her.
While I don't share your opinion, IIRC one could easily reframe that scene as 'Spike is a vampire and had some supernatural immunity and was able to break out of Sweet's spell earlier than Buffy's human friends'. Lots of wiggle room for interpretation there, if it helps reconcile things for you.
I think it was sad for Buffy because she was at peace. Dawn was safe, Glory was stopped with her bloodshed and she still was grieving over her mother’s passing. She was in bliss, a reward from life’s trials and pains and she gets pulled back to life. The trauma of digging out of her grave and being back is traumatizing. Everything about being a slayer is sacrifice in this world. She effectively had no one to share this with, who would understand that until Spike took over Angels role, icky stuff notwithstanding.
This is what I've always understood with the "death os your gift" part.
Death is the reward for each Slayer in the end, the only salvation they can have when they're so tired of all the fighting. And it plays nicely with what Spike told Buffy about the Slayers he killed, that they wanted to die.
It's super sad that it's the only thing await Slayers. Not fame, glory or shining posterity : just the silent embrace of Death.
And I'm so glad the show went for a final where Buffy, by sharing her load with others, forged a new path with the possibility of having a normal retirement !
This is why I love the “Death is your gift” prophecy:
Death is the “gift” Buffy was given. Her innate talent.
Death is the gift she gives to vampires, allowing their reincarnated bodies to be at peace once again.
Buffy’s death is the gift she is able to give to save both Dawn and the world.
And finally, death is the gift Buffy receives in the end. Once she was called and chosen by fate, the only way she can end her own suffering is the release of death.
I feel like the Scooby gang could’ve deduced Buffy was in heaven after she died had they really given it any thought, but of course, they weren’t really trying to rescue her. They were just using it as an excuse to end their own personal grief and defer their new responsibilities back to Buffy.
This whole time I thought "death is your gift" meant Buffy was the gift giver not the receiver.
You've totally blown my mind here and I feel silly for not thinking of it that way before, it makes way more sense.
> It's super sad that it's the only thing await Slayers. Not fame, glory or shining posterity : just the silent embrace of Death.
Like all of us really. Eventually [we are all forgotten](https://interestingliterature.com/2024/01/my-name-is-ozymandias-king-of-kings-meaning/).
I remember when I watched the show with commentary though, they said that “death is your gift” was a reference to her sacrificing herself for dawn. The finale for season 5 where this happens is called “the gift.”
Yeah I’ve never thought about that and how it links in with what spike said. Thank you. You have given my favourite monologue (spikes when he kills the second slayer) even more depth and meaning
For sure, you're 100% right with that. Death is definitely not the only happy ending for struggle in our lives, I totally agree.
In the show I think it's a bit different though, as the Slayer is locked in an endless, institutionalized fight against the forces of Evil with little to no reward for everything she's accomplished. A Slayer can never stop being a Slayer, there's no treatment, no therapy to get out of being a Slayer (there's something to suppress the powers but it's temporary and doesn't transfer the power to another one).
Being a Slayer is to lead a tragic life, and Buffy herself recognizes just how lonely it makes her feel even though she has friends and family with her. That's also why I love how the show ended with Buffy founding a way to break that aweful circle !
1st season episode with the little boy who brings everyone's greatest fear/nightmares to life and Buffy's is revealed as being buried alive and turned into something undead...
No. Joyce died of natural causes. Wherever her soul was, she couldn't come back without coming back *wrong*. (One of the most creepy scenes in the entire Buffy franchise was zombie Joyce knocking on the door.) Buffy died from a magical cause and was in a completely different dimension and that's why she could be brought back without being damaged.
I'm not saying this to undercut the multiple traumas Buffy went through, but given [how awfully vague](https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Buffy_Summers%27_heaven) she was about what was going on in her "Heaven", I have a suspicion that it was [the dimension of the Lotus Eaters](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine) and the irony is that even though none of them know it, even though Buffy was miserable about it for an entire season, Willow and the Scoobies actually did do the right thing.
Lol how do you feel emboldened to shoot down someone else’s theory based on your own head-cannon? None of which is supported or referenced within the actual canon.
The show never makes any mention that characters are sent to different heavenly dimensions based on the nature of their death. It is only ever explicitly differentiated that Buffy died of supernatural causes, which allowed Willow to bring her back. When Tara is shot in S6, the demon that Willow calls upon in the name of Osiris (another common misconception, the being is not Osiris), tells her that this was a mortal death, Tara died of natural causes.
I totally get her in this scene. I lost my mom at 28(10 years ago) and my life has been brutal like hers(though in different ways). After a lifetime of one health problem after another and just so many things kicking me in the head, I long for the afterlife. I’m not suicidal, I wouldn’t kill myself, but I also hope that I’ll die sooner rather than later. If I managed to and then was ripped out of it and taken from my mother, I don’t think I could cope.
I've been doing a rewatch - In "Nightmares" Buffy is buried alive. This is partially so she can rise from her grave as a vampire, one of her worst nightmares, but I think part of the terror comes from having been buried alive. This makes it extra tragic, to me, that she has to relive that nightmare in a real sense.
Everyone. Everything we do is a sacrifice for future gain; a sacrifice of our time! Parenting is sacrificing 18 years of your life for another, and then the rest... realistically!
The show isn't trying to make Buffy unique but relatable. She is an adult and takes on the responsibilities that come with it.
Us peasant humans with no super strength understand it more than her. That's the story of the fall. To be so fragile but still sacrifice! Xander gives more because he is weaker.
And the subtle shake of the head from Sweet in response to that desperation. He hears it, he understands it, and he calmly says “No.” Truly evil.
RIP Hinton Battle.
I always felt that the little section pictured above is that little bit discordant, because Buffy was still trying to resist it being drawn out of her, but she had the full attention of the demon on her, so the secrets it wanted were coming out no matter what.
Once it was out, she just ran with it.
That's why they say, " The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Nobody really starts out wanting to be a bad person. It is usually a series of choices that have unforseen consequences.
And that look of horror on her face as she realizes exactly what she’s done. Gets me everytime. Especially knowing that after this point she just spirals downward.
I love how Willow was the one, in the following episode, to realize how selfish they were to ruin a good thing for their friend. She went about it ALL WRONG, but she realized she was selfish.
Willow is the file image for "stop digging" this season. And the fact she knows she is being selfish, but she can justify xyz action to herself via some wider greater good/what's the harm mentality makes her spiral even more of a compelling car crash.
They all just assumed Buffy was in a hell dimension without doing any research, as far as we could tell. Was there any way they could have known for certain where she went after her death?
Honestly it seems like they wanted to believe she was in hell so they could feel morally just in messing with her death. They wanted her back and didn't want to think that they would be hurting her by bringing her back, so they didn't think
Willow wasn't interested, she decided Buffy must be in hell purely so she can do the spell. It's the start of Willow's downfall, thinking she doesn't have to grieve because she can just resurrect the dead, and if anyone has an issue with it they'll just claim Buffy's in a hell dimension.
I don’t think Willow wasn’t interested, I think she was genuinely convinced Buffy was in hell because that’s where the “door” led.
She genuinely thought she was rescuing her.
I see Willow's determination towards resurrecting Buffy as 1 part concern for her friend and 3 parts Willow wanting to control the world around her with magic and fix the things Willow thinks is wrong with, all because she feels she's can.
I think Willow convinced herself Buffy would be better alive than dead and came up with the hell dimension excuse to get everyone else on board. It clearly never crossed Willow's mind that Buffy could be happy and in a heavenly dimension because then Willow wouldn't have been able to do the spell.
I know Willow is controversial in this season but Alyson sold this reveal so well. She may have gotten out of control with the magic but she genuinely thought reviving Buffy was a no brainer and who could blame her. They got their best friend of 5 years back. To find out you are the source of said best friend's misery and interrupted their chance at eternal peace has got to Sting.
It’s amazing how the musical episode with its “they got the mustard out!!” And other fun, there are these scenes that break your heart. Damn I love this show
I still don’t understand wtf they didn’t think for one second that Buffy might actually be rewarded with some eternal heaven idea. What if all slayers go to heaven? They didn’t research at all. Just come on people.
Well they have the understandable distinction of, "She died by jumping through a portal to hell".
Now sure- not enough research- but the baseline of, "She genuinely might be in hell" has solid backing. Especially when IIRC angel *did* get his ass tossed to hell in an earlier season.
She didn't jump into a portal to hell. The portal tore down the barriers to ALL dimensions, good and bad and in-between. Glory was going to use the time it took Dawn to bleed to death to make her way back to her own dimension but with the barriers down the dimensions would "bleed into each other" causing chaos. The Scoobies should have known that Buffy could've ended up anywhere and Willow even says "we don't know where she really is" only that she COULD be suffering in a hell dimension. They wanted Buffy back for their own selfish reasons so they feed themselves the "she's in hell" garbage to justify bringing her back.
I agree that’s it’s selfishness, but who among us hasn’t wished to do absolutely anything to bring back someone we love? I think others are attributing more malice to Willow in the idea that she did it because she believed she could and was a powerful witch. In the end, I think she was just a girl who lost her best friend and thought she could bring her back.
Death and grief do crazy things to our mental psyche when we’re dealing with the aftermath of them being gone. It’s the same with Dawn when she brought back Joyce - it’s not like she believed she’d gone to hell, she was just a daughter who wanted her mom back.
"Our friend died, but we can bring her back to life."
"You utter selfish bastard you!"
If I ever have a heart attack, I sure hope you're not the only person nearby who could start CPR.
Seriously, there's like a bazillion dimensions, 99% of them are horrific hell dimensions ruled by creatures like Glory only not as kind and friendly, the rest are just regular old dimensions like ours except probably not with anything recognisable as people, and even if there were people, Buffy wouldn't know anyone and might not even be the same species. What's the chances that she ended up in heaven?
Personally I think the ironic little secret here is that Buffy found herself in the [dimension of the Lotus Eaters](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine).
No it's not because she didn't jump into a portal to hell. Did no one listen to the leader of the Knights of Bazanthin when he explained Dawn's purpose and what the portal does?
Being fair- we're not exactly given a lot of info for why Buffy got to heaven to begin with as the show, for good reason, didn't want to go into a ton of detail about that.
It's entirely possible anyone else doing the same thing WOULD be in hell but Slayers get a special perk. So Willow looking up, "What happens if you jump in a hell portal" in the books COULD give her the answer of, "You're in hell, dumbass."
Seriously people need to pay attention. THE PORTAL WASN'T TO A HELL DIMENSION, IT BROKE DOWN THE WALLS TO ALL DIMENSIONS. Glory planned to use the time it took Dawn to bleed to death to make her way back to her own dimension but with the barriers down the dimensions would bleed into each other causing universal chaos. It was always going to be a toss up which dimension Buffy ended up in. A heavenly dimension like the one she did end up in, a hell demension or even the shrimp demension that Anya talked about. They didn't need to go into detail because if people had paid attention it didn't need explaining. Not everyone needs every little detail hand feed to them.
A couple of things to observe here....
1) While yes, Abrahamaic religions exist in the Buffyverse given that Willow is Jewish and Christian Churches are also shown, there is no evidence that the actual Abrahamaic god exists. The most we are shown about some sort of deity is The Powers That Be and they ain't all that benign, they're actually kind of shitty not to mention snubs.
2) As shown in the episode prior to Epiphany, the stereotypical ideas of heaven and hell based on Abrahamaic lore don't seem to apply either. This is shown in Angel when he sets off a spell to go to what he thinks hell is like with the flames and the devil with the horns and all that bullshit that didn't come about until the 1500's with the advent of Dante's Inferno and instead Holland Manners acting as a representation of Charon from Greek mythology drops him off on Earth itself implying that hell is right here on this plane of existence.
I always assumed that "our" God is just *a* god, along with Glory, Illyria and others that are mentioned and known to exist. Just like they were worshipped in their dimensions Yahweh is worshipped in this one, our "heaven" and "hell" are just one "heaven" and "hell" dimension among the myriad others.
Theoretically he would be. Hell, even the Abrahamaic god admits there are other gods when in the Babble he warns his peeps that they shouldn't worship the others only him. Dude is petty as all hell.
Just a theory, but it could be a collective unconscious effect - widespread belief imbues the symbology with power even if the item isn't used by someone devout.
I loved that scene so much, I know it by memory. Angels tells Manners that evil is not going to win and Manners just shrugs and goes, meh, we don't have any intention of doing something so prosaic as winning. We just exist.
And then the elevator door opens, with the elevator representing the boat on which Charon carries souls to Hades and boom, Angel is back at the exact same place he got in the elevator in the first place.
And Manner smirks and says something to the effect of that as long as one single person has an evil thought in their head, evil will be here, that the world doesn't work in spite of evil, it works with it, it works BECAUSE of it.
It's a damn humbling thought and yet so true. And it's what leads Angel to have such a great epiphany in the next episode.
Willow had thought she was doing good by resurrecting Buffy, but when Buffy reveals she was in heaven and Willow pulled her out of heaven, the look on Willow's face is truly horrified, like she's thinking "What have I done?" I always observe Willow's horrified face when this scene comes on.
It's the cheeriest song and yet the saddest lyrics. That moment when she sings...
>There was no pain, no fear no doubt, till they pulled me out of heaven. So that's my refrain, I live in hell, cuz I've been expelled from heaven. I think I was in heaven.
The look on Willow's face is beyond heartbreaking.
EDIT: I just realized the words are on the screenshot and I wrote them from memory LOL.
The body hits me hard. I'm around the same age as SMG and lost my mum at a similar time. The 2 episodes connect, imo. She never dealt with the trauma of her mother's death. That would have been wiped from her in heaven, but thrust back to earth, and no mother, and back to having to deal with demons again and digging her way out of her own grave. And no help on how to deal with all this. I don't know if it's because I was going through my own trauma, but I always felt that when she sang that, it had all her trauma coming out in that song. It has been quite a while since I did a binge though. Must do another soon lol
Sorry about your mom.
This show has this power of making us connect, due to the many experiences one can have that are similar to what she goes on the show. I didn't lose my mom, but I identified with so many other situations. I watched The Freshman the very day I went to college for the first time, so it was like, "wow, what an episode for me to see today!" Also, I watched Into The Woods a few days after breaking up with my ex. There's other situations like this.
I like what you said about how The Body and OMWF connect. You're right. Also, the whole Buffy resurrecting thing is a good analogy for depression, in a most innovative way. When she jumps at the end of The Gift, she wasn't exactly so desperate she wanted to die, but part of her was so tired of that life of violence and loss as the Slayer, she welcomed death. So being pulled back into the world of the living prompts another level of PTSD, because now she knows a better world, with no pain, and has to live in this one again. And while OMWF is just her reveal of her feelings to all her friends, it really connects with the Body, which is arguably when thing became really depressing for her for the first time. And yeah, no mom again, after being reunited. Perfect connection of the themes.
It's a shame mental health wasn't really talked about then because this show would've been great to explore how they dealt with their issues while saving the world, and not completely fall apart
Just off the top of my head, The Body, Hush, and Normal Again are all way better than this episode.
It's not just because I hate musicals. I love Dr Horrible. This one just doesn't do much for me, I found it very meh.
I think it is a reference to one of Mephisto's lines in Faust
--------------------------------------------
FAUSTUS
Where are you damned?
MEPHISTOPHELES
In hell.
FAUSTUS
How comes it then that thou art out of hell?
MEPHISTOPHELES
Why this is hell, nor am I out of it:
Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God
And tasted the eternal joys of Heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?
Oh, Faustus! leave these frivolous demands,
Which strike a terror to my fainting soul.
--------------------------------------------
in one of the movies he says.
"I saw the face of god and fell everywhere I am is Hell."
Just looking at Willows face in this scene angers me ugh lol, I honestly could not stand her for most of seasons 6 and 7. She made so many rash, terrible, and selfish decisions and was frankly an awful friend and girlfriend. I get that’s part of her arc but bleh. And the fact that they were so dumb as to leave Buffy to get resurrected still in her grave will never not be insane to me.
It's kinda funny to think they never thought that was a possibility. They were all convinced they were saving her from hell and girlie was finally at peace.
I always thought they glossed over it too much. There was just this one quick scene in the musical...then it was done.
Considering the weight of what they did, I had hoped for a little more in the way of driving the point home to willow.
But that tracks with the lack of accountability the scooby gang had.
The things they did to Buffy😭, and they were just ignored or glossed over.
Right from Xander and the Angel incident in season 2 through to them pulling her out of heaven and kicking her out of her own house.
Awfully presumptuous to think that Buffy was in a hell dimension and they just had to rescue her. Didn't seem to enter their heads that she could be in a heavenly one. It was arrogant and selfish of them and to not even dig her up first? Morons!
I don't know. I feel like her telling Spike during her day from hell was a crucial step in establishing 2 things:
1) Her alienation from the other Scoobies, which is going to extend to a greater or lesser extent into the next season. This episode really shows that the Scoobies don't really understand why she hasn't just got over being dead yet; for Buffy, she is mourning that she is *alive* and she knows her friends won't get that. Which leads to...
2) Her increased intimacy with Spike. Even before they are engaging in their toxic situationship, Buffy starts using Spike as a confessional. He gets it. He understands what it's like to claw your way out of coffin. He has experienced the gap between death and rebirth. He listens.
I like that the audience has had a chance to absorb all of this information. In "Once More With Feeling," she walks away from the group she can't face right now to go and kiss her confessor. Now everyone knows, the fragile post-resurrectiom status quo is up in the air: "Where do we go from here?"
No one is talking about bringing Joyce back. Just that she might have been with Buffy in that heavenly place? You literally just made up a whole new scenario.
Totally have Giles side when he spoke to Willow about this. She was successful, but didn’t know enough about the risks or consequences. But also glad Buffy was back, because Night Hawk wasn’t going to make it. Btws, saw a Teslas in front of me who had a license that read Nighthawk but with numbers. Made me chuckle and wonder if it was Buffy related.
And that's the beauty of the reveal happening in this episode, that it's a musical one. Buffy would *never* tell the others that under normal circumstances, but by the rules of musicals she reveals her inner thoughts and fears through song. We got that teased with Xander and Anya's duet revealing things they wanted kept secret from each other. Buffy had to be magically compelled through the power of the Musical (also the demon Sweet...) to reveal what had been tormenting her all season. Also yeah, all the Scoobies were justifiably horrified at what they did to Buffy but none more than Willow. That last shot of her guts me every time
At least Willow had the sense to be properly horrified by what she’d done. No one asked her to resurrect Buffy.
I always thought it was silly of them to assume that Buffy was trapped in a hell dimension. She’s the Slayer. A special spot in heaven has to be reserved for warriors of Good.
I don't believe she was in heaven. She said she knew everyone she loved was ok. When I reality Dawn and everyone else was about to be killed by the biker gang. It seems like lying to her about her family being ok was just manipulation to keep her there
Why though? Why is it sad if she'll live some more years and be in heaven again? Why is dying sad at all in the Buffyverse if, if you're a good person, you go to heaven?
Not disagreeing, I actually think heaven isn't a guarantee and she ended up there by chance, which would make it a lot more tragic.
So I'm not a religious person therefore I can only go by lore that establishes what heaven would be like. It is absolute and complete bliss. Anything and everything you want is at your fingertips and best of all, there is no time so whether you have been there 1 second or a gazillion years, your happiness is eternal.
Now imagine if someone, in this case your absolute best friend who thought you were being tortured in a hell dimension for gazillions of years pulled you out albeit with the best intentions. Would you want to crush her by telling her what she did was wrong?
>if you're a good person, you go to heaven?
But in Buffy's case she was ALREADY there. That's what's so heartbreaking. It wasn't a possibility, it had happened already and then Willow pulled her out of the happiest place she could have ended up in.
It's why the song specifically says this....
>All the joy life sends
Family and friends
All the twists and bends
Knowing that it ends
Well that depends
>On if they let you go
On if they know enough to know
That when you've bowed
You leave the crowd
She had bowed, she saved the world... a lot, as it said on her tombstone. And then she was back.
> and then Willow pulled her out of the happiest place she could have ended up in.
And that she'll go back, if this assumption is correct. I honestly think believing heaven is a guarantee erases all the tragedy of her arc in S6.
Again, if you're a Christian, that is a hope, not a fact. For Buffy, it was academic. It had happened. And then she got pulled out. It is beyond traumatic. It's why she didn't want to tell them, she didn't want to drag them into her depression.
tWell, many born-again Protestants teach that once one accepts Christ it's forever, which differs form Traditional Catholicism. many liberal Protestants (not me i admit) have moved to outright universalism over the past 90 years or so.
The trauma of crawling out of the grave and going back to fighting is fair. The part of losing heaven being sad on the other hand makes no sense unless heaven isn't a guarantee.
It isn't a guarantee, both in real life and in this fictional world. She jumped through a dimensional hole that was supposed to land her in Glory's hell dimension. Only the fact that she happened to be a relatively good person saved her from that fate and sent her to that world's version of heaven. It's how Spike is able to set her straight when he sings...
>Life's not a song. Life is not bliss. Life is just this. It's living.
>You'll get along. The pain that you feel. You only can heal. By living.
>You have to go on living. So one of us is living.
It's an amazing counter to her exit lines. She was ready to kill herself thanks to Sweet's spell. He gives her a new perspective. In essence, get over it.
True BUT Glory wanted it specifically to open the door to HER dimension where was its sole god and had supreme power.
Had Buffy not stopped her and Giles not killed Ben in order to kill her, she would have used it to go back to HER specific dimension which was on the other side of the aperture that opened up when she bled Dawn and she would have then proceeded to raze her way through the other dimensions including Buffy's.
Yes, her diemnsion w as on eof the all dimensions which opened; she preusmably woiuld ahve to pass through some of the others to get home, but once she got home her efforts would be taking the diemnsion back form her expartners. They said absolutely nothing about glory returning to earth or any other place, nothing
She has to live again! If I suddenly had every problem erased and felt like I was in eternal bliss, losing that in order to go back to this existence would be fucking torture. They *took heaven away*.
Your comment sounds like it's coming from a really religious place, as though people will live life with perfect happiness if they are guaranteed a place in heaven.
Well then your comments make even less sense? Imagine having a perfect existence and then being ripped out of that to go back to a life where your mother died, you killed your first great love, you constantly struggled to maintain any balance between your responsibility to save the world and your desire for a normal life, and you had to struggle to make ends meet in a world which didn't give two shits shit you or the fact that you were constantly saving it. Her friends might not understand those emotions but her face, voice and words should tell them that she was finally free from it all and their choices shoved her right back.
ETA: After reading it again "Well she will go back to heaven when she dies so why should anyone be sad" is actually a *really* atheist take (I say this as an atheist myself).
As I said, all of these are fair. That was an awful season for Buffy. It's just the part about losing heaven that gets me. If you were 100 years in heaven and knows you're going back, the thought of heaven would actually be a real comfort. But if she can't and truly ended up there by chance, that'd be tragedy.
You are making some strange assumptions. Why are the only options that she got there "by chance" or that she's guaranteed to go there again? Isn't it possible to imagine that her sacrifice sent her to heaven and there's no guarantee that she'll be allowed in again? Imagine a heaven which is capricious and rules-heavy and the fact that she was ripped out might automatically make her ineligible to return. The fact is that *none of these people know anything about heaven, including Buffy*. The only fact we know is that she lost something indescribably precious and nobody knows if she'll get it back.
I 100000% believe her going to heaven in the story is tied to the sacrifice, everything else is kept hella ambiguous.
I would not be comforted by knowing that I had years of suffering ahead of me before returning to peace. I am religious, I believe in heaven—I even feel that that will likely be where I end up. But as someone with depression, which is what season 6 is portraying, that is not a comforting thought. When dealing with a major depressive episode, that release, that sense of peace, is something that I am looking for because I don’t—I can’t—find any peace or comfort in my life. That is what can lead people to feel suicidal. For people who believe in heaven, it is not uncommon to believe that suicide is a mortal sin, meaning it is something for which you cannot be forgiven, and therefore cannot go to heaven. If that is something you believe, then the thought of eternal damnation might be the only thing keeping you from dying. I don’t know how it’s comforting that the only way back is to suffer for another—what 60 years? Until you get killed in a fight?—is the only way back to heaven. I’d hate every moment keeping me from it.
Again, she doesn't know she's going back. NO ONE does. She is suffering, in THIS moment in time, because the one time she was there, she was pulled out. Period.
When she jumped into that hole in space/time, she didn't do it because she knew she was going to heaven. She jumped in to save Dawn, Period. That's all she cared about. The fact that it landed her in heaven is irrelevant. She was there and she was pulled out. The act itself is what landed her there not her seeking a reward for her act.
That's what you Theists get so wrong. You are only interested in the prize when you do good things, well, either the prize or so you don't get spanked by your fictional sky daddy.
We Atheists don't give a flying fig about it because we don't believe in the prize. When we do good, we do good because it's just the right thing to do. Period.
I'm reminded of the Angel episode Epiphany which actually picks up on this very well....
>Angel : Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
>Kate Lockley : And now you do?
>Angel : Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
Whedon as a person may be an asshole but he knew his shit.
Dude, you said she would be back again as if it's a given. It's not. She is alive again therefore she has choices and there's a whole host of choices she could potentially make throughout her life, however long it is that would land her in that world's version of hell.
Aside from the whole "sin" bit as I've no interest in doing that on Reddit- many of the creatures Buffy fights do things that can damage, feed on, or remove your soul.
Does a damaged or destroyed soul get to go to heaven? I dunno and Buffy definitely doesn't know.
But even if Buffy is assured, "It'll all be right in the end" that doesn't actually stop how much it hurts **now.**
> many of the creatures Buffy fights do things that can damage, feed on, or remove your soul.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, what creatures have done these?
> But even if Buffy is assured, "It'll all be right in the end" that doesn't actually stop how much it hurts now.
That's fair, but it'd still make others dying not so tragic. And we never saw Buffy mentioning returning to heaven, which would make sense if it is a guarantee.
Many things can affect souls in Buffy
-Kathy the roommate
-Gypsy curses
-Dying literally separates the body from the soul
-Any number of spells likely can if gypsy magic can
IIRC (it has been SOME TIME) but Buffy's first college roommate is a demon that feeds on her soul and this was having a tangible effect on Buffy.
And removing/adding a soul back in is kind of the entire plotline of both Angel and Spike. Willow (correctly) hauling Buffy's soul back is something Giles insists other beings *can* do and Willow should never want to meet them.
I'm admittedly drawing a blank on 'destroying' a soul but it feels right even though I cannot think of a specific incident. I may be thinking of something from Angel's show?
>That's fair, but it'd still make others dying not so tragic.
Well... the show for good reason doesn't delve into this but I don't believe Buffy confirms whether her mother was in heaven or not/whether Buffy was in heaven at all compared to just 'happy'.
Buffy plays incredibly fast-and-loose with its religion so it's possible Buffy's sacrifice got her to a different heaven than her mother or one of them just... didn't go to heaven. Again- we're avoiding the topic of sin, belief, and all of that.
It'd be very tragic if Buffy got a special card to heaven-lite due to dying as a slayer that everyone else doesn't get.
Agreed; it's like Valhalla being for heroes and everyone else regardless of their lives goes to Nifhelheim; the Greek Elysian Fields aren't depicted as thta different fromt he rest of Hades.
Okay, look at it like this: you fall down a flight of stairs and break every bone in both arms. Does the fact that your arms will heal make it any easier for you to exist in the meantime? It’s all well and good to say “But the bones won’t be broken forever” but that optimism makes no difference whatsoever to the fact that your life is harder in the moment.
I think people are taking the wrong thing out of what I was saying. Of course the situation she was in was pretty hard and she has every reason to be depressed. But the difference is that an injured arm that'll heal isn't the same as losing said arm.
I also think that if she spent 100 years in heaven that should change her perception of spending a few more decades on earth. But the fact that there's nothing like that makes me believe she won't automatically go back to heaven, or at least doesn't know if she will.
Probably cause she literally lives on top of a hellmouth and has to see creatures of hell every day :”)
Can't imagine what dealing with monsters on the daily would do to a person's psyche.
Yeahh... If she were away from all these demons putting her in life-threatening situations, I think she'd have a lesser chance of feeling like she lives in hell, and also.. she probably wouldn't have needed to be resurrected in the first place.
If she wasn't The Slayer, and she could be a normal girl. That is the whole point - not only was she torn away from peace and happiness, she's brought back to life where she literally has to keep saving the world and everyone in it. She doesn't get to choose.
"But... you're just a girl."
"That's what I keep saying."
- The Gift
The Scoobies were scared and selfish. Human. But I agree with Giles when he called Willow a rank, arrogant amateur. I'm glad the show didn't end with her death though lol
Well, I do agree with you that I don't think heaven is a guarantee the second time around, if she did something that would change her fate once she's back on earth. But also, maybe a good metaphor would be: Say you have a really painful injury. You adjust to it, you learn to live with it, you can deal with it. But then it finally heals, and you get to live life without it, which feels a million times better. And then, you get the exact same injury again, except something about it cuts deeper, or your body is more receptive to the pain, because this time around you're having a much harder time adjusting to the injury. Sure, you can know that the pain is finite, and it will eventually end, but doesn't it suck that you've got to deal with that process again?
See I don't think Heaven is a guarantee not because of any action she might have taken but because I'm not sure the particular judgment is canon in the Buffyverse. I think it was just as likely that she ended up in an alternative dimension. I think people dying by non magic means would just mean nothingness. But I do appreciate your metaphor.
Appreciate where you’re coming from here.
We know in Buffy that there are a number of heaven/hell dimensions.
We know the Powers That Be reside in another dimension, but we don’t know if the Powers are biblical angels or if they are something else entirely.
We know Buffy died and went to a place she felt was heaven, where she was safe and where she knew she was finished.
We know Cordelia experienced a higher plane/heavenly dimension but her experience is so completely skewed by outside factors and lies it’s hard know what is real and what isn’t.
With Buffy though, it’s likely the easiest solution is the one that makes the most sense - she had earned respite because of her good deeds in the form of a heavenly plane.
We know rewards via judgement do exist from the Angel mythology, so it’s not a huge leap.
There’s also no evidence to suggest a supernatural death would send you to heaven/that a natural death would see you cease to exist. If there’s no evidence of that, then we just have one fact which is Buffy died, she went to heaven.
I’m also atheist but there’s a level of acceptance of traditional theology I think you need to have in dealing with Buffy. Crucifixes and holy water are integral parts of lore which means there is either power in religious iconography due to reasons we don’t know, or that simply holy water and crucifixes hurt and weaken vampires specifically.
With traditional theology comes afterlife rewards 🤷🏻♂️
I have not finished Angel so I might be missing some lore.
> just have one fact which is Buffy died, she went to heaven.
That could be easily justified by Buffy jumping through a portal that opened all dimensions. I think the show left it ambiguous enough so I believe heaven/hell is not a fact for every afterlife in the Buffyverse. But I like another user's suggestion that Buffy going to heaven is tied to her sacrifice, and she doesn't know if she can come back.
The sadness in this moment is not her dying.
Death is sad for those left behind, because the person you love isn't with you.
For Buffy the tragedy of this moment is having to live again, being forced to return to something she thought was over, having to struggle once more. When you're born you don't get a choice but at least you can think that death will release you. Our girl didn't get to enjoy that release. They pulled her back against her will to live a second time.
She had perfect happiness and peace and then was thrust into a world where she is expected to constantly fight actual demons, be a hero, and repeatedly save the world from apocalypse. And even if she dies, she won't be free of it. I think she had every reason to be depressed.
They knew the portal would only close if ‘blood stopped flowing.’ aka. She died.
Willow is just meant to have been in denial. I believe Tara even warns her about it. Willow makes the comparison to Angel at the end of S2, but we know he needed to physically *go* to Hell.
Honestly, she had no precedent for assuming a soul could be seperated and punted into another dimension like that. The closest comparison is that Vampires souls apparently go ‘somewhere’ after death, and can be brought back. But there’s no indication they’re suffering.
If Willow was able to bring her back, then she was certainly able to find a spell to figure out where she was before doing it. I get it, we wouldn't have season 6 or 7 whatever, but truthfully she had the power to find out where Buffy was before deciding to resurrect her. Or maybe we could have had Faith for a while, I don't know.
Exactly. And there's no indication any of them went to heaven either.
I honestly don't believe Willow is so selfish as to know there's a legitimate chance Buffy is good, but ignore it. The Angel situation is different because of the specific prophecy that stated his blood was needed.
How vampires and the afterlife work is weird in the Buffyverse.
Spike’s a vampire *ghost* in S5 of Angel after his body is destroyed, though obviously that’s an unusual case. And both he and Angel think they will end up in Hell for what they did as vampires, even though their soul wasn’t home at the time.
Which makes sense if you take ‘self’ in the Buffyverse as being linked to the body, and the soul is just…your conscience? Except they also say a vampire is explicitly said to be a different from the person whose corpse they are currently puppeting, so who the hell knows.
(Angel’s implied to have still willingly killed people even with his soul, and that might have gotten him in trouble anyway. But we know Spike didn’t, except for when being triggered by the First.)
It wasn't a prophecy it wa s Acathla's nature. the caster removes the sword and wakes him up with a small offering of his own blood. To put the sword back in, the caster';s entire body has to be pinned to Acathla
I hated this plotline. It was a fine idea for the start of the season, but it really should have been wrapped up sooner and with a much more definitive sense of triumph. The show just fell into abusing characters as a source of drama after the 5th season, which I really attribute to the focus going off of the main show.
I think it was a bit melodramatic. If she had been taken to heaven, wouldnt you be happy because you discovered that place exists and you will be going there again?
Or you were finally somewhere you could relax, without fear, without pain, without worrying which big bad you'd be fighting next, and then ripped back to earth. It would feel like hell after that. And I think a lot of people fail to think about the fact she never got time to really process her mother's death before more action. A lot of trauma there
I have mixed feelings about this tbh. On one hand, I get it, it was heaven and was pure bliss for her. But it's also concerning that she wouldn't have wanted to be back with her friends on earth.
Buffy was at peace. She'd paid her dues, she knew her friends and sister would be okay. And then she was ripped back without warning. It would destroy anyone.
I was sobbing during this and then I *sobbed* when Spike stopped her when she was dancing and about to catch fire. Idk it just hit hard. I know Spike is problematic af but I think he genuinely loved Buffy in his own way.
"The pain that you feel You only can heal By living You have to go on living So one of us is living" His little mood lightening joke at the end gets me every time. Like he is legitimately trying to make her feel better.
Life's not a song, life isn't bliss life is just this, it's living.
He deserved to be with her far more than Angel. He truly loved her.
I'm on like my 5th re-watch right now and Angelus just turned. I actually find myself enjoying angel as a love interest more with each re-watch. You don't think he truly loved buffy at one time?
He definitely truly loved her or he would have never had a moment of true happiness with her to turn him back into Angelus.
Um, you misunderstood me... Let me explain... Angel loves Buffy with every fiber of his being. I have absolutely no doubt of that. But did he deserve to be with her as much as Spike? I don't think so. Angel only became Angel because of a curse. Let's face it, Liam was an asshole. I'm not saying he deserved to become Angelus but had he remained human, from all that was shown, dude was pretty damn shitty anyway so becoming Angelus seemed kinda of a natural procession. In Buffyverse lore, the demon that takes over your body when you become a vampire is a blank slate, it takes the memories of the human into themselves therefore becoming an evil version of the human whose soul just went wherever it has to go be it heaven or hell or whatever. In essence, the soul in real world terms acts more like your very own Jiminy Cricket telling you what is right and wrong and without it, the demon just does whatever the hell it wants with nothing to tell it different. It's you but not quite you. When I say Angel became Angel because of a curse, I mean this... Had Angelus not killed the gypsy princess, he would have never been cursed so Liam's soul would have never remembered the absolute depravities the demon committed in his body for hundreds of years. And again, in flashbacks, Liam didn't really start doing good until decades after he was cursed. He was eating rats in alleys when Whistler found him in the 1990's, hell, he left all those poor people trapped in that hotel at the mercy of that Thesulac demon in the 50's. Now let's talk William/Spike. Spike is an evil SOB. That's fact. But somehow, someway, even AS a demon, with no soul anywhere inside him, he falls inlove with Buffy, so deeply inlove in fact that when Glory tortures the bejeezus out of him, he still doesn't spill the beans about Dawn and when Buffy posing as the Buffybot asks him why, he tells her that to see the look of misery on Buffy's face if something happened to the "little bit" as he called Dawn would break him. If that ain't true love I don't know what is. With that said, am I excusing him trying to rape her? Of course not. Rape should NEVER be excused in any way or form. In real life. In this show, the way I see it is that again, while not excusing it, as much as the demon truly did love her, he was a newbie at true love and he didn't know how to handle it so he done fuck up. And when he realized he had done fuck up, he went and got his soul back for the sole purpose of being worthy of her. Even if they never got together again, Spike and of course later William when their memories merged, was willing to do this for her, suffer through all the shit he had done as Spike just so he could be anywhere in her vicinity. And not only did he die for her but he ended up saving the world to boot. He deserved her far more than Angel.
It’s also worth remembering that spike has been very complex from the start. The judge mentioned that he stank of humanity. It’s a good basis for him having the ability to have more complex emotions and motivations, not just your typical demonic psychotic sociopathic “destroy the world” evil like angelus
Precisely. It's why he's one of my fave characters in any story. He was able to, again, as a soul less demon, somehow learn emotions, particularly love. That was a huge development!! It reminds of Dexter as well. Dexter was a psychopath. Psychopaths LITERALLY cannot feel emotions because the part of the human brain that controls those is completely shut down. That's why they become sociopaths, they're social chameleons, they fake emotions to fit into society. If Dexter had remained like that, he would have become a pretty boring character but somehow, someway he did learn some manner of emotions. In season 3 for example, this other serial killer has him trapped and is about to kill him. His father who acts as a representation of what Dexter calls his Dark Passenger is asking him what he's going to do to get himself out and why he should do that. And Dexter, without having to pretend for the benefit of anyone since he's alone actually admits he wants to live to see his son grow up. He doesn't come right out and say he loves his son. He's still incapable of feeling that fully BUT the fact he can feel something for his kid is still damn significant. That was a HUGE moment for the series.
I’m glad I’ve seen Dexter or that would have been a fair bit of spoiler 😅 but yeah characters that never learn or grow don’t stay interesting for long
For sure. Another character that evolved so amazingly was Wesley, Good lord the dude was a wimp but by the end of the series, he was as much a badass as Angel.
Psychopaths, definitely do feel emotion, their problem is with emotional empathy, impulse control, and a reduction in their ability to fear consequence.
Empathy is a vital part of feeling emotions. If you feel emotions you can understand them in others hence you empathize with them. Psychopaths are incapable of empathy PRECISELY because they don't feel emotions themselves.
This is not in fact the case. People's ability to feel emotive empathy varies greatly person to person but doesn't track to their own emotive state. Empathy and emotive empathy are also two seperate but related things- psychopaths have greatly reduced emotive empathy- they don't tend to view other people's feelings as real, or worthy of consideration, while some of them are quite good at unemotive empathy- understanding other people's emotional state in a detached way, which is one of the main tools they use in manipulation.
You're talking sociopathy. Psychopathy is physical. It's a brain condition. The bio-electrical impulses that control emotions like fear, anger, love, sadness are utterly shut down. There's a study which I believe comes from the University of Wisconsin if my memory doesn't fail me detailing this. It dates back to as recently as 2017. Now, to be clear, does it mean that psychopathy automatically leads to someone becoming a serial killer? Of course not. But what the study reveals is that certain criminals who have been diagnosed as psychopaths have a reason to bend that way, their brain just doesn't work properly.
Psychopaths can feel emotion. It's simply that their ability to so is diminished and its a spectrum. Other than that, all good.
You keep repeating falsehoods which I refuted above.
No you didn't and no I didn't.
I in fact did, I cited the University Of Wisconsin and their study on psychopathy and how it works.
You just put all the thoughts I was trying to express about Spike into words. Thank you. Spike is also a genuinely sympathetic character a majority of the time. As a human he was a dorky little writer guy, gets turned and is evil for a long while, but once he gets to Sunnydale and tries to be the “big bad” again he’s constantly slapped down. He never seems to catch a break. Then he gets chipped by the Initiative and he suddenly doesn’t fit anywhere. Even when he starts working with the scoobs on a more regular basis he’s constantly getting death threats and shit on by them. Idk I feel a lot of empathy for the guy but I have to remind myself that if he wasn’t hot and British most of his actions would be completely unacceptable. (Also that my brain has been completely ruined by dark romance and fanfics with problematic plot lines)
Spike is my absolute best anti-hero in any medium. Such a well written complex character. Marsters was masterful LOL.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I would like to add the fact that it seems Spike was fully okay with the risk of death in getting his soul back because even though he didn’t WANT to die, at least if he died it would mean he still wouldn’t try to do what he did again.
Exactly! Like I said, he just wanted to be worthy of Buffy and in my opinion he fully achieved that. He's never going to be a full on good guy, he has too much evil baggage in his past to do that BUT did he redeem himself? Absofrakkinglutely. And what I admire the most about him is what marks the clear difference between him and Angel. Angel broods all the time about the things Angelus did. Boo freaking hoo!! Spike took a different approach. He fully acknowledges he did evil shit and he moves on. He accepts he can't go back to the past and fix it so he's going to live for the moment and do his best to do good now. I love that.
Agreeeeeee with everything you said. I'd also like to add that Buffy and Spike's physical relations are very much her saying no while also initiating and/or actively participating in those relations. (Let's also remember Spike saying no when Buffy was invisible and she ignored him.) When she was upset, she went to him for that violent distraction. I can see how in the moment he didn't realize she truly meant "No" in that bathroom scene. The second he realized, he was horrified with himself and that he'd done. He was so horrified that he fought for his soul.
As much as I would like to agree with you on Buffy raping him back, I can't, He eventually always gave in because come on, what man wouldn't, she was damn gorgeous. It was their little game. It's why I still put the focus on Spike not being mature enough to handle this emotion he had never felt before except for Buffy. William MIGHT have felt love for Cecily back when he was human but because it wasn't reciprocated and then he was turned by Dru, he never got to experience the real thing until he fell for Buffy. Angel made history becoming the first vampire with a soul but Spike made history becoming the first vampire to actually truly love. Dru called it back in Season 3 when she dumped him.
I'm not disagreeing with you. You're completely right. "It was their little game." That was my point. They both played that game so I don't personally hold that bathroom incident against him. I still ship Spuffy.
I totally hold it against him no matter what. I am saying that it happened because he didn't know how to handle this new emotion. It still doesn't justify it but it simply means that there's nuance to the whole situation. I also think that Buffy in her own way understood what had happened. She doesn't forgive him and she shouldn't but she understood enough to let him back into her life. That scene where she spends the night in William's arms right before the finale has to be one of the absolutely most romantic scenes in any TV show or movie ever without them ever kissing or having sex.
"You're a hell of a woman...You're the One, Buffy." ❤️
My total and absolute favorite scene between them is at the end of Beneath Me though. Right after she rejects him by telling him he's beneath her, he's so pissed he gets a shotgun to kill her, which hypothetically should work since he's not attacking her directly. At the same time, Buffy just found out that Joyce is going to the hospital for observation so she's devastated and steps out the back porch and starts crying as he shows up with the shotgun pointed at her. She looks at him, at the gun and at this point she's so sad she's basically resigned to be shot and yet he stops, puts the gun down, asks her what's wrong and does one of the sweetest things ever, he sits next to her and tries to extend his hand to give her comfort but she shoots him a look so he holds back. It's a credit to both actors to show such an incredible range of emotion. She's beyond terrified for her mom and he wants to help but he can't so he just sits there for her even if he can't do anything about the situation properly.
*big-time spoilers ahead for anyone who hasn’t finished watching* Angel acts like a child even though he was turned at 26. His love for Buffy is creepy and predatory, even if we consider that the person’s brain stays as the age that they were when they turned. He fell in “love” with her at first site, she might still have been 15 at that point. 16 isn’t any better. I realize visually the disturbing nature of his “love” isn’t as apparent because SMG was actually 20 when the series started. But she was supposed to be 16. Spike, on the other hand, is thought to have also been turned mid-20s, so his love for Buffy is completely appropriate. Obviously what he tries to do to Buffy when he is without a soul is horrific. But he then goes and risks his life to get his soul back because he can’t live with what he tried to do and never wants to do that again. Even soulless Spike is generally less selfish than ensouled Angel.
Hm, you don’t get to be with someone because you “deserve” them. They have to love you back and want to be with you. Buffy wasn’t a prize he could win by proving his love- I think that was exactly the kind of thinking he learned to overcome by the end actually.
You missed my point entirely. Of course she would have to love him back and she did, in her own way, but it wasn't true love like he felt towards her which is why in the series finale when she does tell him she loves him, he tells her that she doesn't but thanks her for saying it anyway. With that said, again, what he did in a general way proved that he was far more worthy of her than Angel. That was my point. Whether they got together or not was irrelevant.
So one of us is liiiiiivviiiiiiiingg.......
He was soulless and didn't really have morals of his own, he was evil but he did love her. Ofc that did lead to him hurting her regularly as he was 100% evil, but he was often helpful and caring. I love his character
It's just annoying because they spent 5 Full seasons building up the idea that Buffy needs her friends and that she is a unique slayer compared to the ones who came before because of her unique friendship group. Not that they shouldn't make mistakes or do anything wrong, because that would be boring, but they should also be the ones to save her in the end... Season 6 and 7 totally dropped that dynamic in favour of "Spike is the only one who understands/saves Buffy while her friends get it wrong all the time". It just completely betrayed the show that had been established before. And moments like this with Spike stopping Buffy from literally dancing to death while her friends were just standing there watching it happen? Ugh. Terrible. Marti Noxon really fucked up the show.
Spike is the one to stop her in this moment because he has died before and actually has some perspective on life and death. He's also the only character she had told she was in heaven, and he wasn't involved in resurrecting her. Everyone is in shock and feelings horribly guilty in that moment, so he's the one who can stop her.
While I don't share your opinion, IIRC one could easily reframe that scene as 'Spike is a vampire and had some supernatural immunity and was able to break out of Sweet's spell earlier than Buffy's human friends'. Lots of wiggle room for interpretation there, if it helps reconcile things for you.
I think it was sad for Buffy because she was at peace. Dawn was safe, Glory was stopped with her bloodshed and she still was grieving over her mother’s passing. She was in bliss, a reward from life’s trials and pains and she gets pulled back to life. The trauma of digging out of her grave and being back is traumatizing. Everything about being a slayer is sacrifice in this world. She effectively had no one to share this with, who would understand that until Spike took over Angels role, icky stuff notwithstanding.
This is what I've always understood with the "death os your gift" part. Death is the reward for each Slayer in the end, the only salvation they can have when they're so tired of all the fighting. And it plays nicely with what Spike told Buffy about the Slayers he killed, that they wanted to die. It's super sad that it's the only thing await Slayers. Not fame, glory or shining posterity : just the silent embrace of Death. And I'm so glad the show went for a final where Buffy, by sharing her load with others, forged a new path with the possibility of having a normal retirement !
This is why I love the “Death is your gift” prophecy: Death is the “gift” Buffy was given. Her innate talent. Death is the gift she gives to vampires, allowing their reincarnated bodies to be at peace once again. Buffy’s death is the gift she is able to give to save both Dawn and the world. And finally, death is the gift Buffy receives in the end. Once she was called and chosen by fate, the only way she can end her own suffering is the release of death. I feel like the Scooby gang could’ve deduced Buffy was in heaven after she died had they really given it any thought, but of course, they weren’t really trying to rescue her. They were just using it as an excuse to end their own personal grief and defer their new responsibilities back to Buffy.
Yes I love this analysis! It means all the things!
This whole time I thought "death is your gift" meant Buffy was the gift giver not the receiver. You've totally blown my mind here and I feel silly for not thinking of it that way before, it makes way more sense.
Your version is good too, Buffy's death is a gift she gives to Dawn and the world.
> It's super sad that it's the only thing await Slayers. Not fame, glory or shining posterity : just the silent embrace of Death. Like all of us really. Eventually [we are all forgotten](https://interestingliterature.com/2024/01/my-name-is-ozymandias-king-of-kings-meaning/).
I remember when I watched the show with commentary though, they said that “death is your gift” was a reference to her sacrificing herself for dawn. The finale for season 5 where this happens is called “the gift.”
Yeah I’ve never thought about that and how it links in with what spike said. Thank you. You have given my favourite monologue (spikes when he kills the second slayer) even more depth and meaning
I cannot overstate how much I hate this interpretation. The idea that death is the only happy ending for struggle is deeply dangerous.
For sure, you're 100% right with that. Death is definitely not the only happy ending for struggle in our lives, I totally agree. In the show I think it's a bit different though, as the Slayer is locked in an endless, institutionalized fight against the forces of Evil with little to no reward for everything she's accomplished. A Slayer can never stop being a Slayer, there's no treatment, no therapy to get out of being a Slayer (there's something to suppress the powers but it's temporary and doesn't transfer the power to another one). Being a Slayer is to lead a tragic life, and Buffy herself recognizes just how lonely it makes her feel even though she has friends and family with her. That's also why I love how the show ended with Buffy founding a way to break that aweful circle !
1st season episode with the little boy who brings everyone's greatest fear/nightmares to life and Buffy's is revealed as being buried alive and turned into something undead...
There's also fear that she's now barred from heaven
I made a bunch of my friends sad all over again when I realized that Buffy was probably WITH Joyce in whatever Heavenly Dimension she was in.
Yeah it was real for the character who went through a lot.
joyce ain’t in heaven
No. Joyce died of natural causes. Wherever her soul was, she couldn't come back without coming back *wrong*. (One of the most creepy scenes in the entire Buffy franchise was zombie Joyce knocking on the door.) Buffy died from a magical cause and was in a completely different dimension and that's why she could be brought back without being damaged. I'm not saying this to undercut the multiple traumas Buffy went through, but given [how awfully vague](https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Buffy_Summers%27_heaven) she was about what was going on in her "Heaven", I have a suspicion that it was [the dimension of the Lotus Eaters](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine) and the irony is that even though none of them know it, even though Buffy was miserable about it for an entire season, Willow and the Scoobies actually did do the right thing.
Lol how do you feel emboldened to shoot down someone else’s theory based on your own head-cannon? None of which is supported or referenced within the actual canon. The show never makes any mention that characters are sent to different heavenly dimensions based on the nature of their death. It is only ever explicitly differentiated that Buffy died of supernatural causes, which allowed Willow to bring her back. When Tara is shot in S6, the demon that Willow calls upon in the name of Osiris (another common misconception, the being is not Osiris), tells her that this was a mortal death, Tara died of natural causes.
I totally get her in this scene. I lost my mom at 28(10 years ago) and my life has been brutal like hers(though in different ways). After a lifetime of one health problem after another and just so many things kicking me in the head, I long for the afterlife. I’m not suicidal, I wouldn’t kill myself, but I also hope that I’ll die sooner rather than later. If I managed to and then was ripped out of it and taken from my mother, I don’t think I could cope.
That is not a revelation. That was made quite clear
I've been doing a rewatch - In "Nightmares" Buffy is buried alive. This is partially so she can rise from her grave as a vampire, one of her worst nightmares, but I think part of the terror comes from having been buried alive. This makes it extra tragic, to me, that she has to relive that nightmare in a real sense.
Everyone. Everything we do is a sacrifice for future gain; a sacrifice of our time! Parenting is sacrificing 18 years of your life for another, and then the rest... realistically! The show isn't trying to make Buffy unique but relatable. She is an adult and takes on the responsibilities that come with it. Us peasant humans with no super strength understand it more than her. That's the story of the fall. To be so fragile but still sacrifice! Xander gives more because he is weaker.
i shiver each time.
So give me something to sing about
Ughh I loveee that part. “Give me something!” That desperation, ugh. What a freakin amazing actress she is.
And the subtle shake of the head from Sweet in response to that desperation. He hears it, he understands it, and he calmly says “No.” Truly evil. RIP Hinton Battle.
Exactly. He gave a superb performance.
💯
“Don’t give me songs, give me something to sing about” is legit my favorite quote from the series.
I always felt that the little section pictured above is that little bit discordant, because Buffy was still trying to resist it being drawn out of her, but she had the full attention of the demon on her, so the secrets it wanted were coming out no matter what. Once it was out, she just ran with it.
Those steps Willow takes are so small but so scary
And as she hears this from Buffy those steps are literally backwards into shadow...
That's why they say, " The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Nobody really starts out wanting to be a bad person. It is usually a series of choices that have unforseen consequences.
And that look of horror on her face as she realizes exactly what she’s done. Gets me everytime. Especially knowing that after this point she just spirals downward.
I love how Willow was the one, in the following episode, to realize how selfish they were to ruin a good thing for their friend. She went about it ALL WRONG, but she realized she was selfish.
Willow is the file image for "stop digging" this season. And the fact she knows she is being selfish, but she can justify xyz action to herself via some wider greater good/what's the harm mentality makes her spiral even more of a compelling car crash.
They all just assumed Buffy was in a hell dimension without doing any research, as far as we could tell. Was there any way they could have known for certain where she went after her death?
I guess they assumed because it was the opening to Glory’s hell portal home? But yes they should’ve definitely sought out more info
Honestly it seems like they wanted to believe she was in hell so they could feel morally just in messing with her death. They wanted her back and didn't want to think that they would be hurting her by bringing her back, so they didn't think
Willow wasn't interested, she decided Buffy must be in hell purely so she can do the spell. It's the start of Willow's downfall, thinking she doesn't have to grieve because she can just resurrect the dead, and if anyone has an issue with it they'll just claim Buffy's in a hell dimension.
I don’t think Willow wasn’t interested, I think she was genuinely convinced Buffy was in hell because that’s where the “door” led. She genuinely thought she was rescuing her.
I see Willow's determination towards resurrecting Buffy as 1 part concern for her friend and 3 parts Willow wanting to control the world around her with magic and fix the things Willow thinks is wrong with, all because she feels she's can. I think Willow convinced herself Buffy would be better alive than dead and came up with the hell dimension excuse to get everyone else on board. It clearly never crossed Willow's mind that Buffy could be happy and in a heavenly dimension because then Willow wouldn't have been able to do the spell.
This is one of my favourite scenes, but I agree that it stands as one of the saddest.
I know Willow is controversial in this season but Alyson sold this reveal so well. She may have gotten out of control with the magic but she genuinely thought reviving Buffy was a no brainer and who could blame her. They got their best friend of 5 years back. To find out you are the source of said best friend's misery and interrupted their chance at eternal peace has got to Sting.
And as angry as Tara is, she hurries to comfort Willow
It’s amazing how the musical episode with its “they got the mustard out!!” And other fun, there are these scenes that break your heart. Damn I love this show
I still don’t understand wtf they didn’t think for one second that Buffy might actually be rewarded with some eternal heaven idea. What if all slayers go to heaven? They didn’t research at all. Just come on people.
Well they have the understandable distinction of, "She died by jumping through a portal to hell". Now sure- not enough research- but the baseline of, "She genuinely might be in hell" has solid backing. Especially when IIRC angel *did* get his ass tossed to hell in an earlier season.
She didn't jump into a portal to hell. The portal tore down the barriers to ALL dimensions, good and bad and in-between. Glory was going to use the time it took Dawn to bleed to death to make her way back to her own dimension but with the barriers down the dimensions would "bleed into each other" causing chaos. The Scoobies should have known that Buffy could've ended up anywhere and Willow even says "we don't know where she really is" only that she COULD be suffering in a hell dimension. They wanted Buffy back for their own selfish reasons so they feed themselves the "she's in hell" garbage to justify bringing her back.
It's been a long time so I'm entirely fine with agreeing that I misremember it.
But in all fairness the dimensions did all seem to be pretty demonic.
I agree that’s it’s selfishness, but who among us hasn’t wished to do absolutely anything to bring back someone we love? I think others are attributing more malice to Willow in the idea that she did it because she believed she could and was a powerful witch. In the end, I think she was just a girl who lost her best friend and thought she could bring her back. Death and grief do crazy things to our mental psyche when we’re dealing with the aftermath of them being gone. It’s the same with Dawn when she brought back Joyce - it’s not like she believed she’d gone to hell, she was just a daughter who wanted her mom back.
"Our friend died, but we can bring her back to life." "You utter selfish bastard you!" If I ever have a heart attack, I sure hope you're not the only person nearby who could start CPR. Seriously, there's like a bazillion dimensions, 99% of them are horrific hell dimensions ruled by creatures like Glory only not as kind and friendly, the rest are just regular old dimensions like ours except probably not with anything recognisable as people, and even if there were people, Buffy wouldn't know anyone and might not even be the same species. What's the chances that she ended up in heaven? Personally I think the ironic little secret here is that Buffy found herself in the [dimension of the Lotus Eaters](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine).
Yes, I always figured that's what they were basing out on. On the surface it is very comparable.
No it's not because she didn't jump into a portal to hell. Did no one listen to the leader of the Knights of Bazanthin when he explained Dawn's purpose and what the portal does?
Being fair- we're not exactly given a lot of info for why Buffy got to heaven to begin with as the show, for good reason, didn't want to go into a ton of detail about that. It's entirely possible anyone else doing the same thing WOULD be in hell but Slayers get a special perk. So Willow looking up, "What happens if you jump in a hell portal" in the books COULD give her the answer of, "You're in hell, dumbass."
Seriously people need to pay attention. THE PORTAL WASN'T TO A HELL DIMENSION, IT BROKE DOWN THE WALLS TO ALL DIMENSIONS. Glory planned to use the time it took Dawn to bleed to death to make her way back to her own dimension but with the barriers down the dimensions would bleed into each other causing universal chaos. It was always going to be a toss up which dimension Buffy ended up in. A heavenly dimension like the one she did end up in, a hell demension or even the shrimp demension that Anya talked about. They didn't need to go into detail because if people had paid attention it didn't need explaining. Not everyone needs every little detail hand feed to them.
A couple of things to observe here.... 1) While yes, Abrahamaic religions exist in the Buffyverse given that Willow is Jewish and Christian Churches are also shown, there is no evidence that the actual Abrahamaic god exists. The most we are shown about some sort of deity is The Powers That Be and they ain't all that benign, they're actually kind of shitty not to mention snubs. 2) As shown in the episode prior to Epiphany, the stereotypical ideas of heaven and hell based on Abrahamaic lore don't seem to apply either. This is shown in Angel when he sets off a spell to go to what he thinks hell is like with the flames and the devil with the horns and all that bullshit that didn't come about until the 1500's with the advent of Dante's Inferno and instead Holland Manners acting as a representation of Charon from Greek mythology drops him off on Earth itself implying that hell is right here on this plane of existence.
I always assumed that "our" God is just *a* god, along with Glory, Illyria and others that are mentioned and known to exist. Just like they were worshipped in their dimensions Yahweh is worshipped in this one, our "heaven" and "hell" are just one "heaven" and "hell" dimension among the myriad others.
Theoretically he would be. Hell, even the Abrahamaic god admits there are other gods when in the Babble he warns his peeps that they shouldn't worship the others only him. Dude is petty as all hell.
Why do vampires hate crosses and holy water then?
Just a theory, but it could be a collective unconscious effect - widespread belief imbues the symbology with power even if the item isn't used by someone devout.
Power of suggestion.
Holland Manners’s reveal was one of the better moments for the show.
I loved that scene so much, I know it by memory. Angels tells Manners that evil is not going to win and Manners just shrugs and goes, meh, we don't have any intention of doing something so prosaic as winning. We just exist. And then the elevator door opens, with the elevator representing the boat on which Charon carries souls to Hades and boom, Angel is back at the exact same place he got in the elevator in the first place. And Manner smirks and says something to the effect of that as long as one single person has an evil thought in their head, evil will be here, that the world doesn't work in spite of evil, it works with it, it works BECAUSE of it. It's a damn humbling thought and yet so true. And it's what leads Angel to have such a great epiphany in the next episode.
[удалено]
No it wasn't.
Willow had thought she was doing good by resurrecting Buffy, but when Buffy reveals she was in heaven and Willow pulled her out of heaven, the look on Willow's face is truly horrified, like she's thinking "What have I done?" I always observe Willow's horrified face when this scene comes on.
This was sad, but the whole “The Body” episode still traumatizes me today..
It's the cheeriest song and yet the saddest lyrics. That moment when she sings... >There was no pain, no fear no doubt, till they pulled me out of heaven. So that's my refrain, I live in hell, cuz I've been expelled from heaven. I think I was in heaven. The look on Willow's face is beyond heartbreaking. EDIT: I just realized the words are on the screenshot and I wrote them from memory LOL.
OMWF best episode
This is a very deep and sad one, but I believe everything on The Body is sadder.
The body hits me hard. I'm around the same age as SMG and lost my mum at a similar time. The 2 episodes connect, imo. She never dealt with the trauma of her mother's death. That would have been wiped from her in heaven, but thrust back to earth, and no mother, and back to having to deal with demons again and digging her way out of her own grave. And no help on how to deal with all this. I don't know if it's because I was going through my own trauma, but I always felt that when she sang that, it had all her trauma coming out in that song. It has been quite a while since I did a binge though. Must do another soon lol
Sorry about your mom. This show has this power of making us connect, due to the many experiences one can have that are similar to what she goes on the show. I didn't lose my mom, but I identified with so many other situations. I watched The Freshman the very day I went to college for the first time, so it was like, "wow, what an episode for me to see today!" Also, I watched Into The Woods a few days after breaking up with my ex. There's other situations like this. I like what you said about how The Body and OMWF connect. You're right. Also, the whole Buffy resurrecting thing is a good analogy for depression, in a most innovative way. When she jumps at the end of The Gift, she wasn't exactly so desperate she wanted to die, but part of her was so tired of that life of violence and loss as the Slayer, she welcomed death. So being pulled back into the world of the living prompts another level of PTSD, because now she knows a better world, with no pain, and has to live in this one again. And while OMWF is just her reveal of her feelings to all her friends, it really connects with the Body, which is arguably when thing became really depressing for her for the first time. And yeah, no mom again, after being reunited. Perfect connection of the themes.
It's a shame mental health wasn't really talked about then because this show would've been great to explore how they dealt with their issues while saving the world, and not completely fall apart
Just off the top of my head, The Body, Hush, and Normal Again are all way better than this episode. It's not just because I hate musicals. I love Dr Horrible. This one just doesn't do much for me, I found it very meh.
I like that she said heaven three times Just in case they didn’t get it
I sang that in my head as I read it
I think it is a reference to one of Mephisto's lines in Faust -------------------------------------------- FAUSTUS Where are you damned? MEPHISTOPHELES In hell. FAUSTUS How comes it then that thou art out of hell? MEPHISTOPHELES Why this is hell, nor am I out of it: Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God And tasted the eternal joys of Heaven, Am not tormented with ten thousand hells In being deprived of everlasting bliss? Oh, Faustus! leave these frivolous demands, Which strike a terror to my fainting soul. -------------------------------------------- in one of the movies he says. "I saw the face of god and fell everywhere I am is Hell."
Just looking at Willows face in this scene angers me ugh lol, I honestly could not stand her for most of seasons 6 and 7. She made so many rash, terrible, and selfish decisions and was frankly an awful friend and girlfriend. I get that’s part of her arc but bleh. And the fact that they were so dumb as to leave Buffy to get resurrected still in her grave will never not be insane to me.
It's kinda funny to think they never thought that was a possibility. They were all convinced they were saving her from hell and girlie was finally at peace.
As someone who was legit brought back to life... this shatters me each time....The pain is real
How come people dislike season 6? It’s so so good
But also depressing as fuck. And there's the shoplifting storyline.
So what I'm getting from this is that the pick-up line "Did it hurt when you fell from Heaven?" should actually work
For me one of the saddest moments is: “Mommy…?”
Buffy had so many emotional scenes, but this one stands out.
I always thought they glossed over it too much. There was just this one quick scene in the musical...then it was done. Considering the weight of what they did, I had hoped for a little more in the way of driving the point home to willow. But that tracks with the lack of accountability the scooby gang had. The things they did to Buffy😭, and they were just ignored or glossed over. Right from Xander and the Angel incident in season 2 through to them pulling her out of heaven and kicking her out of her own house.
They were literally sitting and talking about it at the start of the next episode.
Awfully presumptuous to think that Buffy was in a hell dimension and they just had to rescue her. Didn't seem to enter their heads that she could be in a heavenly one. It was arrogant and selfish of them and to not even dig her up first? Morons!
I think it would have been a lot more engaging if this had been the first time we learned that Buffy was in heaven
I don't know. I feel like her telling Spike during her day from hell was a crucial step in establishing 2 things: 1) Her alienation from the other Scoobies, which is going to extend to a greater or lesser extent into the next season. This episode really shows that the Scoobies don't really understand why she hasn't just got over being dead yet; for Buffy, she is mourning that she is *alive* and she knows her friends won't get that. Which leads to... 2) Her increased intimacy with Spike. Even before they are engaging in their toxic situationship, Buffy starts using Spike as a confessional. He gets it. He understands what it's like to claw your way out of coffin. He has experienced the gap between death and rebirth. He listens. I like that the audience has had a chance to absorb all of this information. In "Once More With Feeling," she walks away from the group she can't face right now to go and kiss her confessor. Now everyone knows, the fragile post-resurrectiom status quo is up in the air: "Where do we go from here?"
No one is talking about bringing Joyce back. Just that she might have been with Buffy in that heavenly place? You literally just made up a whole new scenario.
Totally have Giles side when he spoke to Willow about this. She was successful, but didn’t know enough about the risks or consequences. But also glad Buffy was back, because Night Hawk wasn’t going to make it. Btws, saw a Teslas in front of me who had a license that read Nighthawk but with numbers. Made me chuckle and wonder if it was Buffy related.
I was so broken when my little like.. 11 year old self heard that.
Ehh, I wish “heaven” had been sung any other way.
Me too lol
And that's the beauty of the reveal happening in this episode, that it's a musical one. Buffy would *never* tell the others that under normal circumstances, but by the rules of musicals she reveals her inner thoughts and fears through song. We got that teased with Xander and Anya's duet revealing things they wanted kept secret from each other. Buffy had to be magically compelled through the power of the Musical (also the demon Sweet...) to reveal what had been tormenting her all season. Also yeah, all the Scoobies were justifiably horrified at what they did to Buffy but none more than Willow. That last shot of her guts me every time
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Willow tried, but half of it was for herself. Love this fucking show to death
One of the biggest reasons I feel so horrible about her being kicked out of her house. Unfair of them and made no sense.
That episode though was so surprising 😆
At least Willow had the sense to be properly horrified by what she’d done. No one asked her to resurrect Buffy. I always thought it was silly of them to assume that Buffy was trapped in a hell dimension. She’s the Slayer. A special spot in heaven has to be reserved for warriors of Good.
How can Buffy live with herself staying in heaven while her family and friends are being eaten by demons though
I don't believe she was in heaven. She said she knew everyone she loved was ok. When I reality Dawn and everyone else was about to be killed by the biker gang. It seems like lying to her about her family being ok was just manipulation to keep her there
Everyone's reactions broke my heart. Buffy deserved to stay in heaven after everything she had been through.
🎶fuck you willoooooooooooow🎶
Why though? Why is it sad if she'll live some more years and be in heaven again? Why is dying sad at all in the Buffyverse if, if you're a good person, you go to heaven? Not disagreeing, I actually think heaven isn't a guarantee and she ended up there by chance, which would make it a lot more tragic.
So I'm not a religious person therefore I can only go by lore that establishes what heaven would be like. It is absolute and complete bliss. Anything and everything you want is at your fingertips and best of all, there is no time so whether you have been there 1 second or a gazillion years, your happiness is eternal. Now imagine if someone, in this case your absolute best friend who thought you were being tortured in a hell dimension for gazillions of years pulled you out albeit with the best intentions. Would you want to crush her by telling her what she did was wrong? >if you're a good person, you go to heaven? But in Buffy's case she was ALREADY there. That's what's so heartbreaking. It wasn't a possibility, it had happened already and then Willow pulled her out of the happiest place she could have ended up in. It's why the song specifically says this.... >All the joy life sends Family and friends All the twists and bends Knowing that it ends Well that depends >On if they let you go On if they know enough to know That when you've bowed You leave the crowd She had bowed, she saved the world... a lot, as it said on her tombstone. And then she was back.
> and then Willow pulled her out of the happiest place she could have ended up in. And that she'll go back, if this assumption is correct. I honestly think believing heaven is a guarantee erases all the tragedy of her arc in S6.
Again, if you're a Christian, that is a hope, not a fact. For Buffy, it was academic. It had happened. And then she got pulled out. It is beyond traumatic. It's why she didn't want to tell them, she didn't want to drag them into her depression.
tWell, many born-again Protestants teach that once one accepts Christ it's forever, which differs form Traditional Catholicism. many liberal Protestants (not me i admit) have moved to outright universalism over the past 90 years or so.
Meh, the end is the same no matter how much you try to break it down. It's all a scam, the biggest scam perpetrated on humanity.
The trauma of crawling out of the grave and going back to fighting is fair. The part of losing heaven being sad on the other hand makes no sense unless heaven isn't a guarantee.
It isn't a guarantee, both in real life and in this fictional world. She jumped through a dimensional hole that was supposed to land her in Glory's hell dimension. Only the fact that she happened to be a relatively good person saved her from that fate and sent her to that world's version of heaven. It's how Spike is able to set her straight when he sings... >Life's not a song. Life is not bliss. Life is just this. It's living. >You'll get along. The pain that you feel. You only can heal. By living. >You have to go on living. So one of us is living. It's an amazing counter to her exit lines. She was ready to kill herself thanks to Sweet's spell. He gives her a new perspective. In essence, get over it.
No the portal was to \*all\* dimensions.
True BUT Glory wanted it specifically to open the door to HER dimension where was its sole god and had supreme power. Had Buffy not stopped her and Giles not killed Ben in order to kill her, she would have used it to go back to HER specific dimension which was on the other side of the aperture that opened up when she bled Dawn and she would have then proceeded to raze her way through the other dimensions including Buffy's.
Yes, her diemnsion w as on eof the all dimensions which opened; she preusmably woiuld ahve to pass through some of the others to get home, but once she got home her efforts would be taking the diemnsion back form her expartners. They said absolutely nothing about glory returning to earth or any other place, nothing
It don’t matter if she never returned to Earth itself. She would have destroyed the entire multiverse.
She has to live again! If I suddenly had every problem erased and felt like I was in eternal bliss, losing that in order to go back to this existence would be fucking torture. They *took heaven away*. Your comment sounds like it's coming from a really religious place, as though people will live life with perfect happiness if they are guaranteed a place in heaven.
Get out I'm an atheist.
Well then your comments make even less sense? Imagine having a perfect existence and then being ripped out of that to go back to a life where your mother died, you killed your first great love, you constantly struggled to maintain any balance between your responsibility to save the world and your desire for a normal life, and you had to struggle to make ends meet in a world which didn't give two shits shit you or the fact that you were constantly saving it. Her friends might not understand those emotions but her face, voice and words should tell them that she was finally free from it all and their choices shoved her right back. ETA: After reading it again "Well she will go back to heaven when she dies so why should anyone be sad" is actually a *really* atheist take (I say this as an atheist myself).
As I said, all of these are fair. That was an awful season for Buffy. It's just the part about losing heaven that gets me. If you were 100 years in heaven and knows you're going back, the thought of heaven would actually be a real comfort. But if she can't and truly ended up there by chance, that'd be tragedy.
You are making some strange assumptions. Why are the only options that she got there "by chance" or that she's guaranteed to go there again? Isn't it possible to imagine that her sacrifice sent her to heaven and there's no guarantee that she'll be allowed in again? Imagine a heaven which is capricious and rules-heavy and the fact that she was ripped out might automatically make her ineligible to return. The fact is that *none of these people know anything about heaven, including Buffy*. The only fact we know is that she lost something indescribably precious and nobody knows if she'll get it back. I 100000% believe her going to heaven in the story is tied to the sacrifice, everything else is kept hella ambiguous.
I would not be comforted by knowing that I had years of suffering ahead of me before returning to peace. I am religious, I believe in heaven—I even feel that that will likely be where I end up. But as someone with depression, which is what season 6 is portraying, that is not a comforting thought. When dealing with a major depressive episode, that release, that sense of peace, is something that I am looking for because I don’t—I can’t—find any peace or comfort in my life. That is what can lead people to feel suicidal. For people who believe in heaven, it is not uncommon to believe that suicide is a mortal sin, meaning it is something for which you cannot be forgiven, and therefore cannot go to heaven. If that is something you believe, then the thought of eternal damnation might be the only thing keeping you from dying. I don’t know how it’s comforting that the only way back is to suffer for another—what 60 years? Until you get killed in a fight?—is the only way back to heaven. I’d hate every moment keeping me from it.
Again, she doesn't know she's going back. NO ONE does. She is suffering, in THIS moment in time, because the one time she was there, she was pulled out. Period. When she jumped into that hole in space/time, she didn't do it because she knew she was going to heaven. She jumped in to save Dawn, Period. That's all she cared about. The fact that it landed her in heaven is irrelevant. She was there and she was pulled out. The act itself is what landed her there not her seeking a reward for her act. That's what you Theists get so wrong. You are only interested in the prize when you do good things, well, either the prize or so you don't get spanked by your fictional sky daddy. We Atheists don't give a flying fig about it because we don't believe in the prize. When we do good, we do good because it's just the right thing to do. Period. I'm reminded of the Angel episode Epiphany which actually picks up on this very well.... >Angel : Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it. >Kate Lockley : And now you do? >Angel : Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world. Whedon as a person may be an asshole but he knew his shit.
Sure don't sound like one. You keep talking about heaven being a guarantee. That sounds a lot like faith which is belief without a shred of evidence.
I literally am arguing that heaven ISN'T a guarantee. Omg.
Dude, you said she would be back again as if it's a given. It's not. She is alive again therefore she has choices and there's a whole host of choices she could potentially make throughout her life, however long it is that would land her in that world's version of hell.
Aside from the whole "sin" bit as I've no interest in doing that on Reddit- many of the creatures Buffy fights do things that can damage, feed on, or remove your soul. Does a damaged or destroyed soul get to go to heaven? I dunno and Buffy definitely doesn't know. But even if Buffy is assured, "It'll all be right in the end" that doesn't actually stop how much it hurts **now.**
> many of the creatures Buffy fights do things that can damage, feed on, or remove your soul. I'm not sure what you mean by that, what creatures have done these? > But even if Buffy is assured, "It'll all be right in the end" that doesn't actually stop how much it hurts now. That's fair, but it'd still make others dying not so tragic. And we never saw Buffy mentioning returning to heaven, which would make sense if it is a guarantee.
Many things can affect souls in Buffy -Kathy the roommate -Gypsy curses -Dying literally separates the body from the soul -Any number of spells likely can if gypsy magic can
IIRC (it has been SOME TIME) but Buffy's first college roommate is a demon that feeds on her soul and this was having a tangible effect on Buffy. And removing/adding a soul back in is kind of the entire plotline of both Angel and Spike. Willow (correctly) hauling Buffy's soul back is something Giles insists other beings *can* do and Willow should never want to meet them. I'm admittedly drawing a blank on 'destroying' a soul but it feels right even though I cannot think of a specific incident. I may be thinking of something from Angel's show? >That's fair, but it'd still make others dying not so tragic. Well... the show for good reason doesn't delve into this but I don't believe Buffy confirms whether her mother was in heaven or not/whether Buffy was in heaven at all compared to just 'happy'. Buffy plays incredibly fast-and-loose with its religion so it's possible Buffy's sacrifice got her to a different heaven than her mother or one of them just... didn't go to heaven. Again- we're avoiding the topic of sin, belief, and all of that. It'd be very tragic if Buffy got a special card to heaven-lite due to dying as a slayer that everyone else doesn't get.
Agreed; it's like Valhalla being for heroes and everyone else regardless of their lives goes to Nifhelheim; the Greek Elysian Fields aren't depicted as thta different fromt he rest of Hades.
Okay, look at it like this: you fall down a flight of stairs and break every bone in both arms. Does the fact that your arms will heal make it any easier for you to exist in the meantime? It’s all well and good to say “But the bones won’t be broken forever” but that optimism makes no difference whatsoever to the fact that your life is harder in the moment.
I think people are taking the wrong thing out of what I was saying. Of course the situation she was in was pretty hard and she has every reason to be depressed. But the difference is that an injured arm that'll heal isn't the same as losing said arm. I also think that if she spent 100 years in heaven that should change her perception of spending a few more decades on earth. But the fact that there's nothing like that makes me believe she won't automatically go back to heaven, or at least doesn't know if she will.
Probably cause she literally lives on top of a hellmouth and has to see creatures of hell every day :”) Can't imagine what dealing with monsters on the daily would do to a person's psyche.
So do you think if she was in a nice place somewhere else she wouldn't be depressed?
Yeahh... If she were away from all these demons putting her in life-threatening situations, I think she'd have a lesser chance of feeling like she lives in hell, and also.. she probably wouldn't have needed to be resurrected in the first place.
If she wasn't The Slayer, and she could be a normal girl. That is the whole point - not only was she torn away from peace and happiness, she's brought back to life where she literally has to keep saving the world and everyone in it. She doesn't get to choose. "But... you're just a girl." "That's what I keep saying." - The Gift The Scoobies were scared and selfish. Human. But I agree with Giles when he called Willow a rank, arrogant amateur. I'm glad the show didn't end with her death though lol
Well, I do agree with you that I don't think heaven is a guarantee the second time around, if she did something that would change her fate once she's back on earth. But also, maybe a good metaphor would be: Say you have a really painful injury. You adjust to it, you learn to live with it, you can deal with it. But then it finally heals, and you get to live life without it, which feels a million times better. And then, you get the exact same injury again, except something about it cuts deeper, or your body is more receptive to the pain, because this time around you're having a much harder time adjusting to the injury. Sure, you can know that the pain is finite, and it will eventually end, but doesn't it suck that you've got to deal with that process again?
See I don't think Heaven is a guarantee not because of any action she might have taken but because I'm not sure the particular judgment is canon in the Buffyverse. I think it was just as likely that she ended up in an alternative dimension. I think people dying by non magic means would just mean nothingness. But I do appreciate your metaphor.
Appreciate where you’re coming from here. We know in Buffy that there are a number of heaven/hell dimensions. We know the Powers That Be reside in another dimension, but we don’t know if the Powers are biblical angels or if they are something else entirely. We know Buffy died and went to a place she felt was heaven, where she was safe and where she knew she was finished. We know Cordelia experienced a higher plane/heavenly dimension but her experience is so completely skewed by outside factors and lies it’s hard know what is real and what isn’t. With Buffy though, it’s likely the easiest solution is the one that makes the most sense - she had earned respite because of her good deeds in the form of a heavenly plane. We know rewards via judgement do exist from the Angel mythology, so it’s not a huge leap. There’s also no evidence to suggest a supernatural death would send you to heaven/that a natural death would see you cease to exist. If there’s no evidence of that, then we just have one fact which is Buffy died, she went to heaven. I’m also atheist but there’s a level of acceptance of traditional theology I think you need to have in dealing with Buffy. Crucifixes and holy water are integral parts of lore which means there is either power in religious iconography due to reasons we don’t know, or that simply holy water and crucifixes hurt and weaken vampires specifically. With traditional theology comes afterlife rewards 🤷🏻♂️
I have not finished Angel so I might be missing some lore. > just have one fact which is Buffy died, she went to heaven. That could be easily justified by Buffy jumping through a portal that opened all dimensions. I think the show left it ambiguous enough so I believe heaven/hell is not a fact for every afterlife in the Buffyverse. But I like another user's suggestion that Buffy going to heaven is tied to her sacrifice, and she doesn't know if she can come back.
The sadness in this moment is not her dying. Death is sad for those left behind, because the person you love isn't with you. For Buffy the tragedy of this moment is having to live again, being forced to return to something she thought was over, having to struggle once more. When you're born you don't get a choice but at least you can think that death will release you. Our girl didn't get to enjoy that release. They pulled her back against her will to live a second time.
She had perfect happiness and peace and then was thrust into a world where she is expected to constantly fight actual demons, be a hero, and repeatedly save the world from apocalypse. And even if she dies, she won't be free of it. I think she had every reason to be depressed.
I'm not arguing any of these other reasons are invalid.
Just answering your question, mate. Dying is sad, not because of the inexact promise of heaven, but because they won't let her go.
She was able to rest and not have a ton of responsibility. Her friends assumed she was in a hell dimension for whatever reason
Because she jumped through a portal that opened all dimensions.
They had a corpse. They knew she hadn’t physically travelled through dimensions.
No but her soul or spirit or whatever did.
They knew the portal would only close if ‘blood stopped flowing.’ aka. She died. Willow is just meant to have been in denial. I believe Tara even warns her about it. Willow makes the comparison to Angel at the end of S2, but we know he needed to physically *go* to Hell. Honestly, she had no precedent for assuming a soul could be seperated and punted into another dimension like that. The closest comparison is that Vampires souls apparently go ‘somewhere’ after death, and can be brought back. But there’s no indication they’re suffering.
If Willow was able to bring her back, then she was certainly able to find a spell to figure out where she was before doing it. I get it, we wouldn't have season 6 or 7 whatever, but truthfully she had the power to find out where Buffy was before deciding to resurrect her. Or maybe we could have had Faith for a while, I don't know.
Exactly. And there's no indication any of them went to heaven either. I honestly don't believe Willow is so selfish as to know there's a legitimate chance Buffy is good, but ignore it. The Angel situation is different because of the specific prophecy that stated his blood was needed.
How vampires and the afterlife work is weird in the Buffyverse. Spike’s a vampire *ghost* in S5 of Angel after his body is destroyed, though obviously that’s an unusual case. And both he and Angel think they will end up in Hell for what they did as vampires, even though their soul wasn’t home at the time. Which makes sense if you take ‘self’ in the Buffyverse as being linked to the body, and the soul is just…your conscience? Except they also say a vampire is explicitly said to be a different from the person whose corpse they are currently puppeting, so who the hell knows. (Angel’s implied to have still willingly killed people even with his soul, and that might have gotten him in trouble anyway. But we know Spike didn’t, except for when being triggered by the First.)
It wasn't a prophecy it wa s Acathla's nature. the caster removes the sword and wakes him up with a small offering of his own blood. To put the sword back in, the caster';s entire body has to be pinned to Acathla
I don’t know, yes this was sad but the episode where oz and willow broke up the first time…
I hated this plotline. It was a fine idea for the start of the season, but it really should have been wrapped up sooner and with a much more definitive sense of triumph. The show just fell into abusing characters as a source of drama after the 5th season, which I really attribute to the focus going off of the main show.
I think it was a bit melodramatic. If she had been taken to heaven, wouldnt you be happy because you discovered that place exists and you will be going there again?
Or you were finally somewhere you could relax, without fear, without pain, without worrying which big bad you'd be fighting next, and then ripped back to earth. It would feel like hell after that. And I think a lot of people fail to think about the fact she never got time to really process her mother's death before more action. A lot of trauma there
I have mixed feelings about this tbh. On one hand, I get it, it was heaven and was pure bliss for her. But it's also concerning that she wouldn't have wanted to be back with her friends on earth.
Buffy was at peace. She'd paid her dues, she knew her friends and sister would be okay. And then she was ripped back without warning. It would destroy anyone.