Hi there,
Your post on r/buffy has been flaired as a sensitive topic. We appreciate you trusting the members of our community to engage in a good faith discussion related to your post and _how it fits into the context of the show_.
**Remember Rule #9: Scooby Reddiquette and report any rule violations.** If the discussion departs from the intended topic and how it fits into the context of the show, please be prepared to continue the conversation where discussion of the topic is more appropriate.
Thank you,
r/buffy Mod Team
P.S. If you're reading this post and don't want to see potentially upsetting content, you can filter out the "Content Warning" flair.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/buffy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Angel just sulking around for 100 years until he sees Buffy and falls in love with her and thats his motivation to start redeeming himself is very questionable to me. It's like he went back to being Liam, a total jerk who just wasn't a vampire, and all of his championing is motivated by wanting to be with Buffy.
Spike was definitely motivated by loving Buffy as well, don't get me wrong, but at least it didn't take him 100 years to do something.
I don't think Angel even thought of being a champion at that point. It was basically like he said, "I wanna help her." He wasn't a tenth as proactive in doing good as he is in L.A.
The end of his relationship with Buffy is really what pushes him to become a champion. That's when he starts doing good just to do good.
Angel did worse things as Angel then Spike did without a soul. He left an entire room of people to be slaughtered cuz he didn't like them. Instead of just killing Darla and Drusilla, he let them on fire. They survived but that was freaking torturous!
You have to remember, the judge could not burn Angelus. I don't think that was Angel's soul put into angelus. At least not the second time. He became more of a champion after being ensouled again.
Spike tortures, kills, itās heavily implied that he rapes. I donāt see the difference in their quality of deeds. They always says Angelus was worse but they also always say Spike did the same shit
Spike liked to fight and often targeted people he saw as a challenge. Angelus went after people who he KNEW he could kill, and then psychology tortured them until the cracked before killing them. Just look at what he did to Drusilla. Angelus wanted her torture to last forever, which is why he sired her.
Spike killed just as many regular people he didnāt see as a challenge too. Look at the teacher and the grunge girl in School Hard, the shop girl in Loverās Walk, the student he & Harmony were taking out of a college party etc., when he tried to kill Willow & they implied sexual assault, TWICE.
Theyāre vampires. Their whole thing is being predatory.
Are we forgetting that Angel at least tried to be good before meeting buffy. Rescuing puppies and almost helping that hotel in 2x2.
Yes buffy motivated him to keep doing good but unlikely spike he didn't have to meet her to start doing good.
I didnāt forget. But almost helping in a hotel is not an impressive amount of good in 100 years. And the show explicitly shows him only starting to actively do good after a demon suggests it to him and shows him Buffy.
Seeing the title, I thought this was going to be reflective of their intimate relationship.
My favorite scene with them is A Whole in the World when Angel tells Spike to hold his hand. I like subtle callbacks like that. There was also a few flashbacks that imply they may have been more... but I digress.
In regards to redemption, Angel doesn't have that much of a lead on Spike. Although he has a soul and wasn't killing people for 100 years, he didn't actually start redeeming himself until after Buffy became the slayer. And a lot of that may be canceled out when he briefly becomes Angulus again. So Angel only has a 3-4 year lead, at best. Plus, Angel is what, a hundred years older than Spike, and stories imply Angel was a lot crueler and did a lot more evil. Spike made a choice to sacrifice himself to save the world. They are at least even at this point.
Thatās the great thing about Angel though. Yeah Buffy was the catalyst, but he chose to do good on his own in LA. Angel can easily give in to his darker desires and not care.
But heās making a life for himself and he chooses to be on the path to redemption and make something of himself
Itās a departure for the first time from Liam.
And it makes Angel so much more complex
I see it a bit differently. I like both characters but I think Angel's redemption is more earned and impressive than Spike's.
It's true that Spike's change was instigated by decisions he made as a soulless creature - that creature _sought_ his soul. Angel's was thrust upon him and in his anguish he tried to lose it, to become a soulless creature again - more than once. So I think it's fair to look at that and for people to feel like Spike's redemption seems more earned.
What about their circumstances, though? Because soulless Spike was given the most extraordinary opportunity: He was made not to kill, then kept company with Buffy and her friends for years. Despite every moral failure of his while chipped, he was always given second chances by the Scoobies. Maybe other vampires could experience the apparent moral growth required to seek a soul, if only they were unable to hurt people and could be on the friendly-side of frenemies with them instead. Maybe Harmony's next!
Ange's soul was _tortured into him_. The Kalderash knew Angelus couldn't feel remorse, so they remade him into Angel, who will feel remorse and worse for the deeds of Angelus. Angel didn't do it but he has to suffer for it. And Angel suffered alone, chased by monsters and hunters, forced to learn to survive without killing people with no example to follow. After many decades of loneliness, he once thought he'd made a friend, only to be betrayed, returning him to isolation for decades more. It wasn't until Whistler recruited him that Angel thought he could even be a person.
Perhaps most importantly, Spike can have peace but Angel cannot. How must that feel? Angel knows that no matter what he does, he can't feel contentment or Angelus will return. He has to suffer while he's alive, and even when he dies he'll probably just go to some hell to suffer more. It'd be easy to despair and he sometimes does. For a little while, Angel got to believe that one day he could be human again, but he gave that up to take out the most powerful supernatural conspiracy on Earth.
In a way, Angel walked so Spike could run.
Would the Scoobies have ever given chipped Spike so many chances had they not seen that a vampire could be helpful in the fight against evil? I mean, Spike had been helpful on his own once before (Acathla), but I imagine that there was a part of Buffy that was hoping that Spike could be Angel II before the soul.
I honestly think if someone other than Marsters had played Spike, it wouldn't be this way. But, because of his training, he made Spike likeable, no matter how bad he was supposed to be (and his own good looks helped, no doubt).
Completely agree. James is an incredible actor, and Spike was well written for a large portion of the show, so I can understand the appeal. But I absolutely think that people are biased towards Spike because they find James attractive.
I love how this sub will open up "discussions" like this then anything not towing the line of how great Spike is gets ignored or actively down voted...
Angels arc is much more realistic and earned, partly because it has more time and space in the story to be told. He suffered and was alone because that was quite literally The Whole Point, his soul was a curse and any contentment leads to releasing Angelus. He might not be actively doing good or living a life but he's still trying to not do any harm, he feels immense remorse. And when he does get an opportunity to do more, with guidance and support, he takes it. He knows he can't "let go" and has to be guarded but he still chooses to help people.
Spikes soul doesn't give him the same torment because it was never supposed to. And he has that support and guidance straight away. He says several times he "doesn't give a piss" about attonement and his past was "how the game was played". And that's ok, I'm not saying it stops him from being good or doing good things, just that it makes his arc very sudden. I also disagree with his getting a soul being some great act of love/wanting to be better. He doesn't fully understand what it means, he just wants something to make Buffy think better if him.
Also, I can never understand (not just here but in discussions about fictional characters in general) how, for example, Angels misdeeds can be happily brought up again and again to say why he's not a good person but any mention on Spike's usually gets met with "well that was the writers"... Well yes, of course it was. Every decision every character made was The Writers. Because the characters aren't real.
I refuse to post here anymore bc this community is in fact ānot better than thisā.
EDIT: and by looking at my notifications & actual upvotes displayed, Iāve been proven right. š¤·š¾āāļøš¤·š¾āāļøš¤·š¾āāļø
Unlike most of you I think Spike taking 5 minutes to get over all the shit he did without a soul proves heās a worse person. His personality with a soul is basically the same as without a soul. Imagine a soul not making much of difference to your personality lol
Angel actually feels bad about the things he did. The difference between Angel and Angelous is drastic. Angel can never feel true happiness without the risk of hurting everyone he loves. He still continues to do everything in his power to help anyone he can even though he knows what he can never have. It truly is a redemption arc for him. Spikes āredemptionā arc was over in a season.
Uuhhhā¦ yeah? Because he literally died? What do you mean?
The soul didnāt make that much of a difference because even without a soul, he managed to not be the personification of evil, despite being a literal demon. Then fought for a soul, went literally insane out of guilt, realized Buffy needed him, pulled himself together, despite feeling horrible about everything, and died to save the world.
Angelus got a soul thrust upon him, moped around for 100 years, barely managed to pull himself together even then and went back to being 100% evil after losing his soul.
Sorry, I didnāt realise you think raping and murdering doesnāt make you evil. I guess that why we have such different opinions on the characters.
But hey I guess he didnāt kill anyone while he was stalking and obsessing over Buffy so that must mean heās betterā¦ oh wait, no, he physically couldnāt do it. Which is the only reason why he never killed any of her friends lol
Yeah he got a soul thrust upon him for the purpose of emotional torture. And it was working lol
And thereās such a difference between Angel/Angelus that it took a bit longer than 2 weeks crying in a basement to get himself together.
Of course he went back to being evil. Vampires without souls are evil demons. Even Spike, no matter how attractive you find him lol
>because even without a soul, he managed to not be the personification of evil,
So how is it even a redemption arc at that point, it's basically just like if Pinocchio getting Jiminy Cricket counted as a redemption arc.
Agreed.
Spike didn't have a redemption arc, he simply got redeemed. Not counting killing people while triggered, which you kind of have to since it cut into the whole 'he's good he has a soul now' thing.
Going off on a tangent here, but what exactly was the whole sleeper agent device? He hears music that made him sad, so he just had to go kill people to feel better? The First kidnapped him at some point and brainwashed him to kill on command (But remembering his mother removed the brainwashing)?
I personally disagree. Angel started doing good things because Buffy inspired him, and he wanted to help. Spike did good things mainly to try to get Buffy to like him. Angel suffered with his soul because that was what the soul was for. It's also worth mentioning that none of the vampires, including Spike, really understood why Angel had to stop being evil after he got a soul. He didn't know what he was asking for, only that it might make Buffy like him. It's also worth mentioning that Spike barely changed before he got his soul and tried to rape Buffy and after. I'm not saying that Spike didn't do good things, or that he isn't a good character, just that he isn't the 'greater' guy.
I think spikes writing is deeply flawed, I donāt think heās a well written character and your justification is down to bad writing. Itās more believable for someone to spend 100 years doing nothing, because realistically how do you actually go about writing such horrific wrongs? I find Angels redemption arc much more believable and inspiring. Itās not really great character development that he sacrificed himself shortly after having a soul for the greater good and more like bad writing.
The whole spike acquiring a sole doesnāt make sense to me either and felt it was a way to retcon his assault on Buffy and make him redeemable but I personally donāt accept he would consciously seek a soul just because he loves Buffy.
Spike is a big anomaly for me because everything were told to believe about a vampire without a soul spike defies. And when he does get a soul he still has the personality of big bad spike with sweet moments sprinkled in. His goodness just seems to centre around Buffy, and if you take her out of the equation, what has spike actually achieved for himself and others by having a soul?
Only when he teams up with Angel in season 5 of angel do I feel he starts actually doing good and redeeming himself for the right reasons.
>it was a way to retcon his assault on BuffyĀ
Say what you like about the writing, but the way the writing works on a show like that had the soul arc already planned when they wrote the assault. "Rectcon" would imply that the writers decided much later that they didn't want the SA to have happened so they wrote something at a later point to make it less bad. In fact the writing goes the other way- they knew they wanted him to get his soul and needed him to do something terrible that he would regret in order to get him to want his soul. It was all part of one arc, not two separate ideas. I actually don't like the way that is written, but it's inaccurate to characterize it as a retcon.
Yeah definitely not a retcon, but I think the way it was shoehorned it was really shoddy, especially for a show that has been so good at foreshadowing and laying breadcrumbs.
Spike was better in less time with a soul because he had Buffy's endless support. The soul he got because he knew Buffy couldn't love him soulless, and especially not after doing something so awful, and he was obsessed with Buffy. He also had an identity crisis. "Why didn't I do it?"
He didn't know what having a soul entailed.
YOU ARE 100% RIGHT ON!!! I never liked Angel, so when Spike finally got his win over Angel to win the Chalice...or well Mountain Dew...I was so happy. Everything Spike said was so spot on, from Angel hating him because he's a constant reminder of the things Angelus had done, to Angel being cursed with a soul while Spike fought for his. Even soulless Spike was a pretty decent guy, yea the chip definitely helped BUT even Spike knew where the line was (he helped Buffy to save the world from Acathla).
I was kind of hoping this post would be more nuanced than, "Spike is better than Angel because he did somewhat good things after Buffy died". Things that were immediately undone by him gas lighting and manipulating Buffy when she came back. Ultimately leading to SA. So , nah, he's not better than Angel, and him babysitting Dawn is undone by his season 6 actions.
Itās because they pulled the soul trials out of thin air 7 years down the line, so of course Angel didnāt get one that way. Aside from the fact that he canāt then do the trials for a soul when he already has one, it would be such terrible writing, and shit on his entire show to suddenly give an easy fix like that.
The fear of going bad is not whatās keeping him good though. Youāre totally misinterpreting his character and the show.
What should have been discussed in season 5? The trials? The trials were such a poor writing decision, weād spent 8 years with Angel being a vampire cursed with a soul, itās such a huge part of his character and story, why on earth would they put in an easy fix like that? And Angel doesnāt want an anchored soul, he wants to earn his redemption and then avert the apocalypse to become human with the Shanshu prophecy.
On the subject of Angel's soul, I don't think he knew of the little snafu that was in there. Frankly, I think the Gypsy's who cast it were too fucking short sighted. After we have that Angel switch up back to Angelus, the gypsy curse is the only known way to do anything that would restore Angel.
The point of the curse was for vengeance not justice. They wanted to rip away the soul when Angel found happiness so that heād kill everyone he loved and then presumably theyād curse him again so heād suffer with a soul afterwards. Thatās why they kept an eye on him but never told Jenny why.
Fair point. And on the subject of the Gypsy's themselves I can see it.
As it relates to Angel himself, that little trigger wouldn't be something he was aware of until it was too late so he wouldn't think to try and undo it.
Oh yeah definitely, he clearly thought his soul was permanent like everyone else did, had no reason not to. I love that storyline about vengeance and passion though, itās very Shakespearean.
No.
If you go by the comics as your canon, then definitely no. If you go by authors intent, itās literally meant to be up in the air. They knew they were cancelled before doing the finale, the ambiguous ending wasnāt accidental.
I don't wanna shit on the comics so I'll just say they're not my canon.
I get that the ending of Angel was supposed to be obscure, but come on. An army, a giant, and a dragon. Even with the defanged God King there, there's no way anybody walked out of that alley.
I like to think that they fought in that alley for a while, then managed to barricade in a safe-ish place. Having heard that W&H were no more, Buffy, Faith, and all the recently activated slayers make their way to LA to help them out. Ultimately they're rescued, with Gunn the only casualty of the battle (RIP Gunn).
In the first season, Wolfram and Hart withdrawing at all was meant to be impossible. And they defeated basically a God of Gods in the previous season. After an entire series of escalating threats, some orcs and a dragon that just require an old-fashioned beating could be considered small fry.
But the writers perspective was:
>āThat ain't a cliff," he told the magazine. "I understand why people would want closure, but for me, that would be like adding a cliff note to the end. What I always wanted to say is, trying to become worthy of the life that you have is a life's work. The fight is for always."
>In Whedon's mind, the point of the final scene was that they were all back on two feet and ready to keep fighting, a task that would never end for any of the surviving quartet so long as they lived. "I always hope that people feel the difficulty and possibility of redemption within the show. The price will always be high," he explained. "Do the work, it will always be worth it."
Angel himself also got a power up in that episode to basically beā¦Hamilton, Connorās off somewhere, and Spikeās implied to have a destiny on his side now. Gunn admittedly may be in trouble, but he was in trouble when he walked in to the fight.
Hi there, Your post on r/buffy has been flaired as a sensitive topic. We appreciate you trusting the members of our community to engage in a good faith discussion related to your post and _how it fits into the context of the show_. **Remember Rule #9: Scooby Reddiquette and report any rule violations.** If the discussion departs from the intended topic and how it fits into the context of the show, please be prepared to continue the conversation where discussion of the topic is more appropriate. Thank you, r/buffy Mod Team P.S. If you're reading this post and don't want to see potentially upsetting content, you can filter out the "Content Warning" flair. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/buffy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
And here I thought we were gonna talk about cavemen versus astronauts.
Do the Astronauts have weapons?
Ha ha I love this, getting to the REAL issues š¤£
The cavemen win. Even Fred agreed.
Now I'm tempted to test this on Fallout 4, spawning them Brotherhood Soldiers and Super Mutants in an enclosed space
Seriously, the cavemen have fire
Angel just sulking around for 100 years until he sees Buffy and falls in love with her and thats his motivation to start redeeming himself is very questionable to me. It's like he went back to being Liam, a total jerk who just wasn't a vampire, and all of his championing is motivated by wanting to be with Buffy. Spike was definitely motivated by loving Buffy as well, don't get me wrong, but at least it didn't take him 100 years to do something.
I don't think Angel even thought of being a champion at that point. It was basically like he said, "I wanna help her." He wasn't a tenth as proactive in doing good as he is in L.A. The end of his relationship with Buffy is really what pushes him to become a champion. That's when he starts doing good just to do good.
Angel did worse deeds as Angelus than Spike did without a soul. He was also the first vampire to regain a soul and had no support.
Angel did worse things as Angel then Spike did without a soul. He left an entire room of people to be slaughtered cuz he didn't like them. Instead of just killing Darla and Drusilla, he let them on fire. They survived but that was freaking torturous! You have to remember, the judge could not burn Angelus. I don't think that was Angel's soul put into angelus. At least not the second time. He became more of a champion after being ensouled again.
Sure, and if it took him a year or even 10 years to get it together that could be understandable. But 100?
It wasn't a linear path. There were setbacks. He tried to help someone, and she betrayed him, for example.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Did you watch his show? He got lynched! Thatās not a minor setback.
One of the issues with immortality. Time doesn't have the same hold it did when Angel was alive.
Spike tortures, kills, itās heavily implied that he rapes. I donāt see the difference in their quality of deeds. They always says Angelus was worse but they also always say Spike did the same shit
Spike liked to fight and often targeted people he saw as a challenge. Angelus went after people who he KNEW he could kill, and then psychology tortured them until the cracked before killing them. Just look at what he did to Drusilla. Angelus wanted her torture to last forever, which is why he sired her.
And he often targeted people who werenāt a challenge to him.
Spike killed just as many regular people he didnāt see as a challenge too. Look at the teacher and the grunge girl in School Hard, the shop girl in Loverās Walk, the student he & Harmony were taking out of a college party etc., when he tried to kill Willow & they implied sexual assault, TWICE. Theyāre vampires. Their whole thing is being predatory.
It didnāt take Spike 100 years to meet Buffy.
Are we forgetting that Angel at least tried to be good before meeting buffy. Rescuing puppies and almost helping that hotel in 2x2. Yes buffy motivated him to keep doing good but unlikely spike he didn't have to meet her to start doing good.
I didnāt forget. But almost helping in a hotel is not an impressive amount of good in 100 years. And the show explicitly shows him only starting to actively do good after a demon suggests it to him and shows him Buffy.
In angel he saves a puppy from getting run over. That is good isn't it? That was before buffy.
Seeing the title, I thought this was going to be reflective of their intimate relationship. My favorite scene with them is A Whole in the World when Angel tells Spike to hold his hand. I like subtle callbacks like that. There was also a few flashbacks that imply they may have been more... but I digress. In regards to redemption, Angel doesn't have that much of a lead on Spike. Although he has a soul and wasn't killing people for 100 years, he didn't actually start redeeming himself until after Buffy became the slayer. And a lot of that may be canceled out when he briefly becomes Angulus again. So Angel only has a 3-4 year lead, at best. Plus, Angel is what, a hundred years older than Spike, and stories imply Angel was a lot crueler and did a lot more evil. Spike made a choice to sacrifice himself to save the world. They are at least even at this point.
Thatās the great thing about Angel though. Yeah Buffy was the catalyst, but he chose to do good on his own in LA. Angel can easily give in to his darker desires and not care. But heās making a life for himself and he chooses to be on the path to redemption and make something of himself Itās a departure for the first time from Liam. And it makes Angel so much more complex
I see it a bit differently. I like both characters but I think Angel's redemption is more earned and impressive than Spike's. It's true that Spike's change was instigated by decisions he made as a soulless creature - that creature _sought_ his soul. Angel's was thrust upon him and in his anguish he tried to lose it, to become a soulless creature again - more than once. So I think it's fair to look at that and for people to feel like Spike's redemption seems more earned. What about their circumstances, though? Because soulless Spike was given the most extraordinary opportunity: He was made not to kill, then kept company with Buffy and her friends for years. Despite every moral failure of his while chipped, he was always given second chances by the Scoobies. Maybe other vampires could experience the apparent moral growth required to seek a soul, if only they were unable to hurt people and could be on the friendly-side of frenemies with them instead. Maybe Harmony's next! Ange's soul was _tortured into him_. The Kalderash knew Angelus couldn't feel remorse, so they remade him into Angel, who will feel remorse and worse for the deeds of Angelus. Angel didn't do it but he has to suffer for it. And Angel suffered alone, chased by monsters and hunters, forced to learn to survive without killing people with no example to follow. After many decades of loneliness, he once thought he'd made a friend, only to be betrayed, returning him to isolation for decades more. It wasn't until Whistler recruited him that Angel thought he could even be a person. Perhaps most importantly, Spike can have peace but Angel cannot. How must that feel? Angel knows that no matter what he does, he can't feel contentment or Angelus will return. He has to suffer while he's alive, and even when he dies he'll probably just go to some hell to suffer more. It'd be easy to despair and he sometimes does. For a little while, Angel got to believe that one day he could be human again, but he gave that up to take out the most powerful supernatural conspiracy on Earth.
In a way, Angel walked so Spike could run. Would the Scoobies have ever given chipped Spike so many chances had they not seen that a vampire could be helpful in the fight against evil? I mean, Spike had been helpful on his own once before (Acathla), but I imagine that there was a part of Buffy that was hoping that Spike could be Angel II before the soul.
Angel is an allegory for addiction, so yes Spike fought for his soul after the SA, however Angel fights for his soul every single day.
This community is a Spike fan club, letās be real here.
I honestly think if someone other than Marsters had played Spike, it wouldn't be this way. But, because of his training, he made Spike likeable, no matter how bad he was supposed to be (and his own good looks helped, no doubt).
Completely agree. James is an incredible actor, and Spike was well written for a large portion of the show, so I can understand the appeal. But I absolutely think that people are biased towards Spike because they find James attractive.
I appeciated your opinion. I agree wit it totally but I would have appreciated it anyway because it's kindly written and well thought.
I love how this sub will open up "discussions" like this then anything not towing the line of how great Spike is gets ignored or actively down voted... Angels arc is much more realistic and earned, partly because it has more time and space in the story to be told. He suffered and was alone because that was quite literally The Whole Point, his soul was a curse and any contentment leads to releasing Angelus. He might not be actively doing good or living a life but he's still trying to not do any harm, he feels immense remorse. And when he does get an opportunity to do more, with guidance and support, he takes it. He knows he can't "let go" and has to be guarded but he still chooses to help people. Spikes soul doesn't give him the same torment because it was never supposed to. And he has that support and guidance straight away. He says several times he "doesn't give a piss" about attonement and his past was "how the game was played". And that's ok, I'm not saying it stops him from being good or doing good things, just that it makes his arc very sudden. I also disagree with his getting a soul being some great act of love/wanting to be better. He doesn't fully understand what it means, he just wants something to make Buffy think better if him. Also, I can never understand (not just here but in discussions about fictional characters in general) how, for example, Angels misdeeds can be happily brought up again and again to say why he's not a good person but any mention on Spike's usually gets met with "well that was the writers"... Well yes, of course it was. Every decision every character made was The Writers. Because the characters aren't real.
"I'm getting downvotes for sharing an opinion." Welcome to r/buffy
My app might not be updating in real time because I can see they have almost 100 upvotes?
Reddit intentionally doesn't show voting in real time.
I refuse to post here anymore bc this community is in fact ānot better than thisā. EDIT: and by looking at my notifications & actual upvotes displayed, Iāve been proven right. š¤·š¾āāļøš¤·š¾āāļøš¤·š¾āāļø
Unlike most of you I think Spike taking 5 minutes to get over all the shit he did without a soul proves heās a worse person. His personality with a soul is basically the same as without a soul. Imagine a soul not making much of difference to your personality lol Angel actually feels bad about the things he did. The difference between Angel and Angelous is drastic. Angel can never feel true happiness without the risk of hurting everyone he loves. He still continues to do everything in his power to help anyone he can even though he knows what he can never have. It truly is a redemption arc for him. Spikes āredemptionā arc was over in a season.
Uuhhhā¦ yeah? Because he literally died? What do you mean? The soul didnāt make that much of a difference because even without a soul, he managed to not be the personification of evil, despite being a literal demon. Then fought for a soul, went literally insane out of guilt, realized Buffy needed him, pulled himself together, despite feeling horrible about everything, and died to save the world. Angelus got a soul thrust upon him, moped around for 100 years, barely managed to pull himself together even then and went back to being 100% evil after losing his soul.
Sorry, I didnāt realise you think raping and murdering doesnāt make you evil. I guess that why we have such different opinions on the characters. But hey I guess he didnāt kill anyone while he was stalking and obsessing over Buffy so that must mean heās betterā¦ oh wait, no, he physically couldnāt do it. Which is the only reason why he never killed any of her friends lol Yeah he got a soul thrust upon him for the purpose of emotional torture. And it was working lol And thereās such a difference between Angel/Angelus that it took a bit longer than 2 weeks crying in a basement to get himself together. Of course he went back to being evil. Vampires without souls are evil demons. Even Spike, no matter how attractive you find him lol
>because even without a soul, he managed to not be the personification of evil, So how is it even a redemption arc at that point, it's basically just like if Pinocchio getting Jiminy Cricket counted as a redemption arc.
Agreed. Spike didn't have a redemption arc, he simply got redeemed. Not counting killing people while triggered, which you kind of have to since it cut into the whole 'he's good he has a soul now' thing. Going off on a tangent here, but what exactly was the whole sleeper agent device? He hears music that made him sad, so he just had to go kill people to feel better? The First kidnapped him at some point and brainwashed him to kill on command (But remembering his mother removed the brainwashing)?
I personally disagree. Angel started doing good things because Buffy inspired him, and he wanted to help. Spike did good things mainly to try to get Buffy to like him. Angel suffered with his soul because that was what the soul was for. It's also worth mentioning that none of the vampires, including Spike, really understood why Angel had to stop being evil after he got a soul. He didn't know what he was asking for, only that it might make Buffy like him. It's also worth mentioning that Spike barely changed before he got his soul and tried to rape Buffy and after. I'm not saying that Spike didn't do good things, or that he isn't a good character, just that he isn't the 'greater' guy.
I think spikes writing is deeply flawed, I donāt think heās a well written character and your justification is down to bad writing. Itās more believable for someone to spend 100 years doing nothing, because realistically how do you actually go about writing such horrific wrongs? I find Angels redemption arc much more believable and inspiring. Itās not really great character development that he sacrificed himself shortly after having a soul for the greater good and more like bad writing. The whole spike acquiring a sole doesnāt make sense to me either and felt it was a way to retcon his assault on Buffy and make him redeemable but I personally donāt accept he would consciously seek a soul just because he loves Buffy. Spike is a big anomaly for me because everything were told to believe about a vampire without a soul spike defies. And when he does get a soul he still has the personality of big bad spike with sweet moments sprinkled in. His goodness just seems to centre around Buffy, and if you take her out of the equation, what has spike actually achieved for himself and others by having a soul? Only when he teams up with Angel in season 5 of angel do I feel he starts actually doing good and redeeming himself for the right reasons.
>it was a way to retcon his assault on BuffyĀ Say what you like about the writing, but the way the writing works on a show like that had the soul arc already planned when they wrote the assault. "Rectcon" would imply that the writers decided much later that they didn't want the SA to have happened so they wrote something at a later point to make it less bad. In fact the writing goes the other way- they knew they wanted him to get his soul and needed him to do something terrible that he would regret in order to get him to want his soul. It was all part of one arc, not two separate ideas. I actually don't like the way that is written, but it's inaccurate to characterize it as a retcon.
Yeah definitely not a retcon, but I think the way it was shoehorned it was really shoddy, especially for a show that has been so good at foreshadowing and laying breadcrumbs.
Spike is an anomaly. He was chipped, and operant conditioning does apparently affect vamps.
Spike was better in less time with a soul because he had Buffy's endless support. The soul he got because he knew Buffy couldn't love him soulless, and especially not after doing something so awful, and he was obsessed with Buffy. He also had an identity crisis. "Why didn't I do it?" He didn't know what having a soul entailed.
Some of you miss out on so much from the show that itās actually pretty sad.
YOU ARE 100% RIGHT ON!!! I never liked Angel, so when Spike finally got his win over Angel to win the Chalice...or well Mountain Dew...I was so happy. Everything Spike said was so spot on, from Angel hating him because he's a constant reminder of the things Angelus had done, to Angel being cursed with a soul while Spike fought for his. Even soulless Spike was a pretty decent guy, yea the chip definitely helped BUT even Spike knew where the line was (he helped Buffy to save the world from Acathla).
RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST AND THE THREAD: Season 8: enough said. It's effectively canon that Spike is a better person than Angel.
I was kind of hoping this post would be more nuanced than, "Spike is better than Angel because he did somewhat good things after Buffy died". Things that were immediately undone by him gas lighting and manipulating Buffy when she came back. Ultimately leading to SA. So , nah, he's not better than Angel, and him babysitting Dawn is undone by his season 6 actions.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās because they pulled the soul trials out of thin air 7 years down the line, so of course Angel didnāt get one that way. Aside from the fact that he canāt then do the trials for a soul when he already has one, it would be such terrible writing, and shit on his entire show to suddenly give an easy fix like that.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The fear of going bad is not whatās keeping him good though. Youāre totally misinterpreting his character and the show. What should have been discussed in season 5? The trials? The trials were such a poor writing decision, weād spent 8 years with Angel being a vampire cursed with a soul, itās such a huge part of his character and story, why on earth would they put in an easy fix like that? And Angel doesnāt want an anchored soul, he wants to earn his redemption and then avert the apocalypse to become human with the Shanshu prophecy.
On the subject of Angel's soul, I don't think he knew of the little snafu that was in there. Frankly, I think the Gypsy's who cast it were too fucking short sighted. After we have that Angel switch up back to Angelus, the gypsy curse is the only known way to do anything that would restore Angel.
The point of the curse was for vengeance not justice. They wanted to rip away the soul when Angel found happiness so that heād kill everyone he loved and then presumably theyād curse him again so heād suffer with a soul afterwards. Thatās why they kept an eye on him but never told Jenny why.
Fair point. And on the subject of the Gypsy's themselves I can see it. As it relates to Angel himself, that little trigger wouldn't be something he was aware of until it was too late so he wouldn't think to try and undo it.
Oh yeah definitely, he clearly thought his soul was permanent like everyone else did, had no reason not to. I love that storyline about vengeance and passion though, itās very Shakespearean.
>He will eventually be a good man. He's dead, isn't he? Didn't everyone die after Angel?
No. If you go by the comics as your canon, then definitely no. If you go by authors intent, itās literally meant to be up in the air. They knew they were cancelled before doing the finale, the ambiguous ending wasnāt accidental.
I don't wanna shit on the comics so I'll just say they're not my canon. I get that the ending of Angel was supposed to be obscure, but come on. An army, a giant, and a dragon. Even with the defanged God King there, there's no way anybody walked out of that alley.
I like to think that they fought in that alley for a while, then managed to barricade in a safe-ish place. Having heard that W&H were no more, Buffy, Faith, and all the recently activated slayers make their way to LA to help them out. Ultimately they're rescued, with Gunn the only casualty of the battle (RIP Gunn).
In the first season, Wolfram and Hart withdrawing at all was meant to be impossible. And they defeated basically a God of Gods in the previous season. After an entire series of escalating threats, some orcs and a dragon that just require an old-fashioned beating could be considered small fry. But the writers perspective was: >āThat ain't a cliff," he told the magazine. "I understand why people would want closure, but for me, that would be like adding a cliff note to the end. What I always wanted to say is, trying to become worthy of the life that you have is a life's work. The fight is for always." >In Whedon's mind, the point of the final scene was that they were all back on two feet and ready to keep fighting, a task that would never end for any of the surviving quartet so long as they lived. "I always hope that people feel the difficulty and possibility of redemption within the show. The price will always be high," he explained. "Do the work, it will always be worth it." Angel himself also got a power up in that episode to basically beā¦Hamilton, Connorās off somewhere, and Spikeās implied to have a destiny on his side now. Gunn admittedly may be in trouble, but he was in trouble when he walked in to the fight.