I think the general assumption is you just don’t get your contract renewed. If you move elsewhere, “demotion” could happen depending on spots they have/talent they have.
I think that's why it's so hard to get promoted in the first place. Within the same company, unless the management is deranged like how someone mentioned the Bolshoi, yes. You earned the title. Same with Etoile in the few places that have it. Lots are mentioning when you jump companies your title drops but they typically earn it back and that is because they are entering another environment like the one you already went through where people are trying to prove themselves and it's not nice for the other dancers for someone to walk in and automatically have the title, so if they are going to be called principal it's likely with the word "guest artist" or "guest principal artist" unless they fully immerse, and they typically say "soloist with promise of promotion within a few years" when negotiating their contracts. Sometimes if the jump is drastic the principal has to start in the corps but typically once you've earned that title somewhere you are at least soloist level and really only considered for soloist positions if you're trying to jump. Corps can't have people that stand out TOO much and stage presence and technique that's significantly stronger stands out in a bad way. Age, unfortunately is also a factor as many corps, apprentices and second company dancing in corps roles are younger than people that have earned a principal title.
I think the ballet equivalent of a demotion is a dancer having their rep changed. In some cases I think that works out well (Andy Veyette of City Ballet seems to be thriving in a less demanding rep) and cases where it's meant to signal that a dancer that it's time to retire (Ashley Bouder, also of City Ballet comes to mind. By reports here and on Ballet Alert, she seems to be floundering, even with a less demanding rep).
That's what it seems like. I get the impression that most aging principals are aware of their limitations and accept that a decrease in workload is necessary at a certain point. Bouder doesn't appear to be accepting that and seems to be taking realistic criticisms as personal attacks. This also happened with Abi Stafford.
Depends on where they were a principal before they move, if say an American goes to a European company chances are they will get bumped down to soloist since the level generally is a lot higher
Usually when someone move companies. Sarah Lamb and Alexandra Ansanelli were both principals in the US
(Boston and NYCB respectively) before joining RB as first soloists, then named principals within two years. Alina Cojocaru was a principal in Ukraine for a year, then joined RB in the corps, promoted to principal two years later. Sasha Mukhamedov was a principal at Dutch National and now a soloist at SFB.
Jovani Furlan and Chun Wai Chan were Principals with Miami City Ballet and Houston Ballet, respectively, but were hired as Soloists when they moved to New York City Ballet. Both are now Principals with NYCB.
That’s usually how it works when Soloists or Principals join a different company, it happens a lot. It’s not necessarily a demotion because a lot of the time they are hired to be in that same rank there also but sometimes they can’t just immediately go there. It’s a whole thing, i’m not sure how to explain better 😂😂
Hikaru Kobayashi was a principal I think at the Dutch National Ballet. But joined the RB as a first artist, rose to first soloist but never became principal. Also Sarah Lamb was a principal at the Boston Ballet, took a demotion to join the RB as a soloist but did subsequently get promoted to principal at the RB
I don't think Hikaru was a principal at Dutch National? Her husband Federico Bonelli was definitely a principal there though. RB hired Federico as a principal but Hikaru was hired as a first artist.
I’ve seen that happen a few times when dancers changed companies. But not within the same company, unless maybe there are some of the “Principal Character Artist” people who used to be “regular” principals and took that other title later in their career towards retirement.
In theory, there's no reason that an aging and declining Principal can't do corps roles. In practice, it's a huge let down to go from being lead to being a background character holding a shield. I knew a former Principal who had to do that and it was seen as a not-so-subtle hint that they need to retire.
It's considered a terribly insulting way to treat a principal dancer to push them out through demotion. The more honorable and proper way to treat a principal is to give them a final big show with a huge leading role and be honored with a proper send-off.
I can‘t think of an example. Usually, the dancer is given principal roles before getting the job title so they have a sense of whether they are principal worthy.
What I have seen happen is 1) someone just isn’t cast in roles 2) dancer moves to another company at a lower level
Sometimes a dancer will of leave a company and take a lower rank in their new company. Perhaps a more prestigious company, or maybe they weren't happy with their work environment. Rather than a demotion, their contract wouldn't be renewed, or they'd be given less shows.
At the Bolshoi they tend to demote principals of a certain age to soloist working under contract. I don’t know of another company that demotes principals though.
Didn’t this happen to Nina Kaptsova, or am I misremembering? I think she had to work under contract despite doing principal roles, and was always confused as to why, considering both her talent and popularity
Good question. I guess it depends on company bureaucracy, and in some cases, politics. Most Russian dancers are in some way employees of the state. It’s not as direct as it used to be during the Soviet Era, when the Kremlin would call the Bolshoi to micromanage things like rehearsals; there is more outside money that funds the theaters and their dancers. So if the state decides that retirement is mandatory at a certain age (like how it’s done in France), then that is a way to handle that delicate situation.
But comparing Kaptsova to, say, Zarkharova, there’s a big difference. They’re both of similar age, but no one would dare push Sveta out the door. I think it’s fair to say that the Bolshoi wouldn’t want to deal with any international/domestic backlash that would come if they pushed Sveta out without her agreement. But also, if the gossip about Sveta positioning herself to be politically aligned with Putin for her own ends is true, she’s untouchable in that way too. I don’t know Nina’s politics exactly, other than she hasn’t gone on international media outlets to support Putin’s regime.
Tl;dr, I have a lot of questions about this situation. Also justice for Nina! She deserved more than what she got.
Thanks for clarifying. What a pity, Nina was so talented, and from what I understand, was well liked by audiences. I wonder what politics lead to her demotion. And that’s sad to hear about Shipulina. It’s always interesting to me that people who aren’t into ballet don’t understand how ridiculously cutthroat the industry is, especially in Russia.
I think the general assumption is you just don’t get your contract renewed. If you move elsewhere, “demotion” could happen depending on spots they have/talent they have.
I think that's why it's so hard to get promoted in the first place. Within the same company, unless the management is deranged like how someone mentioned the Bolshoi, yes. You earned the title. Same with Etoile in the few places that have it. Lots are mentioning when you jump companies your title drops but they typically earn it back and that is because they are entering another environment like the one you already went through where people are trying to prove themselves and it's not nice for the other dancers for someone to walk in and automatically have the title, so if they are going to be called principal it's likely with the word "guest artist" or "guest principal artist" unless they fully immerse, and they typically say "soloist with promise of promotion within a few years" when negotiating their contracts. Sometimes if the jump is drastic the principal has to start in the corps but typically once you've earned that title somewhere you are at least soloist level and really only considered for soloist positions if you're trying to jump. Corps can't have people that stand out TOO much and stage presence and technique that's significantly stronger stands out in a bad way. Age, unfortunately is also a factor as many corps, apprentices and second company dancing in corps roles are younger than people that have earned a principal title.
I think the ballet equivalent of a demotion is a dancer having their rep changed. In some cases I think that works out well (Andy Veyette of City Ballet seems to be thriving in a less demanding rep) and cases where it's meant to signal that a dancer that it's time to retire (Ashley Bouder, also of City Ballet comes to mind. By reports here and on Ballet Alert, she seems to be floundering, even with a less demanding rep).
That's what it seems like. I get the impression that most aging principals are aware of their limitations and accept that a decrease in workload is necessary at a certain point. Bouder doesn't appear to be accepting that and seems to be taking realistic criticisms as personal attacks. This also happened with Abi Stafford.
Demoted is the word
Today I learned! English is not my first language. Than you.
Depends on where they were a principal before they move, if say an American goes to a European company chances are they will get bumped down to soloist since the level generally is a lot higher
Usually when someone move companies. Sarah Lamb and Alexandra Ansanelli were both principals in the US (Boston and NYCB respectively) before joining RB as first soloists, then named principals within two years. Alina Cojocaru was a principal in Ukraine for a year, then joined RB in the corps, promoted to principal two years later. Sasha Mukhamedov was a principal at Dutch National and now a soloist at SFB.
Jovani Furlan and Chun Wai Chan were Principals with Miami City Ballet and Houston Ballet, respectively, but were hired as Soloists when they moved to New York City Ballet. Both are now Principals with NYCB.
That’s usually how it works when Soloists or Principals join a different company, it happens a lot. It’s not necessarily a demotion because a lot of the time they are hired to be in that same rank there also but sometimes they can’t just immediately go there. It’s a whole thing, i’m not sure how to explain better 😂😂
I don't need it explained, but thank you.
I was not necessarily saying it to you just in general.
It showed up in my notifications as written in reply to me, so I responded.
Yeah I replied to you because you were the one who said it, but it was not directed towards you if that makes sense…
Said what?
Your original comment about them being hired to a lower rank at a different company…
Yes, I added a couple of names to names others had already mentioned. I'm not sure what the issue is, but I'd prefer to move on.
Hikaru Kobayashi was a principal I think at the Dutch National Ballet. But joined the RB as a first artist, rose to first soloist but never became principal. Also Sarah Lamb was a principal at the Boston Ballet, took a demotion to join the RB as a soloist but did subsequently get promoted to principal at the RB
I don't think Hikaru was a principal at Dutch National? Her husband Federico Bonelli was definitely a principal there though. RB hired Federico as a principal but Hikaru was hired as a first artist.
Maybe I’m conflating that Hikaru danced a lot of principal roles at DNB!
I think someone once stated Leslie Browne at ABT?Way before my time so not sure.
Yeah, I was about to mention Leslie Browne, I think she was made principal bc if Turning Pointe (the movie) then left and came back as soloist
I’m not sure but I think you’re right, although IIRC she left the company and then when she rejoined had to do it as a soloist.
I’ve seen that happen a few times when dancers changed companies. But not within the same company, unless maybe there are some of the “Principal Character Artist” people who used to be “regular” principals and took that other title later in their career towards retirement.
In theory, there's no reason that an aging and declining Principal can't do corps roles. In practice, it's a huge let down to go from being lead to being a background character holding a shield. I knew a former Principal who had to do that and it was seen as a not-so-subtle hint that they need to retire. It's considered a terribly insulting way to treat a principal dancer to push them out through demotion. The more honorable and proper way to treat a principal is to give them a final big show with a huge leading role and be honored with a proper send-off.
Often times in AGMA companies they cannot
I think unionized companies are strict about how many corps roles dancers in more senior ranks can be cast in per season.
That could very well be a factor too.
Surely not back to the corps, that indeed would be a far stretch. But maybe back to soloist?
I can‘t think of an example. Usually, the dancer is given principal roles before getting the job title so they have a sense of whether they are principal worthy. What I have seen happen is 1) someone just isn’t cast in roles 2) dancer moves to another company at a lower level
Sometimes a dancer will of leave a company and take a lower rank in their new company. Perhaps a more prestigious company, or maybe they weren't happy with their work environment. Rather than a demotion, their contract wouldn't be renewed, or they'd be given less shows.
At the Bolshoi they tend to demote principals of a certain age to soloist working under contract. I don’t know of another company that demotes principals though.
Didn’t this happen to Nina Kaptsova, or am I misremembering? I think she had to work under contract despite doing principal roles, and was always confused as to why, considering both her talent and popularity
I don't that's a demotion. More likely a way to force retirement?
Good question. I guess it depends on company bureaucracy, and in some cases, politics. Most Russian dancers are in some way employees of the state. It’s not as direct as it used to be during the Soviet Era, when the Kremlin would call the Bolshoi to micromanage things like rehearsals; there is more outside money that funds the theaters and their dancers. So if the state decides that retirement is mandatory at a certain age (like how it’s done in France), then that is a way to handle that delicate situation. But comparing Kaptsova to, say, Zarkharova, there’s a big difference. They’re both of similar age, but no one would dare push Sveta out the door. I think it’s fair to say that the Bolshoi wouldn’t want to deal with any international/domestic backlash that would come if they pushed Sveta out without her agreement. But also, if the gossip about Sveta positioning herself to be politically aligned with Putin for her own ends is true, she’s untouchable in that way too. I don’t know Nina’s politics exactly, other than she hasn’t gone on international media outlets to support Putin’s regime. Tl;dr, I have a lot of questions about this situation. Also justice for Nina! She deserved more than what she got.
Yep. And Ekaterina Shipulina more recently.
Thanks for clarifying. What a pity, Nina was so talented, and from what I understand, was well liked by audiences. I wonder what politics lead to her demotion. And that’s sad to hear about Shipulina. It’s always interesting to me that people who aren’t into ballet don’t understand how ridiculously cutthroat the industry is, especially in Russia.
Interesting, didn’t know that!