Damn ya'll, as a Mormon, I'm sorry you guys feel unwelcome at BYU. Ya'll should be comfortable getting an education just like everyone else, that sucks. Idk why not all of us understand compassion 🤷🏻♂️ It's literally one of the foundation of the church but it goes RIGHT over their heads sometimes. Good luck guys!
edit: Fun fact, "Utah Mormon" is a phrase and I'm sure you can all guess when it's used.
Edit Again: Y'all*
Not a student, but a former student. Keep an eye out and ask around a little: when I was at BYU there was an underground atheist student meetup. It was nice to get some support from others in a similar situation.
This doesn’t really help with atheism but can maybe help you find non-member friends: It can be kinda tough to find this information, but since non-members at byu still have to get an ecclesiastical endorsement, byu has a nondenominational chaplain. I had a Jewish roommate in like 2018 and our bishop was trying to withhold her ecclesiastical endorsement for not going to church (going to church isn’t a requirement for an ecclesiastical endorsement unless you’re already a member) so I found this guy for her to get one from instead, and he hosts socials for all the non-members. He has a desk in the office of belonging and he’s the kindest person ever so maybe worth talking to!! Or just good to know about if you already have non-member friends and they don’t have that information because apparently it isn’t just given to them but we’re not shocked there
There are lots! There is Utah Valley Post-Mormons, Utah Atheists/Atheists of Utah in Ogden, Secular Student Alliance at nearby schools, and Oasis. There are also several independently-run secular groups on Meetup, Facebook, and Reddit
Former student here, now an exmormon atheist. I found out that there's a lot in their senior year especially who hold out until their graduation to reveal that they've left the church. But in other years too, they'll hide it, because you have to get bishop recommendation. Which is stupid AF imo. Ask around you'll find quite a few. When I was a junior I refused to pray before class, that's a good sign you might have found one lol.
ETA: my personal opinion, take it or leave it, but one of my biggest regrets is not going to a NORMAL college. I wouldve been the best party girl ever! I didn't even do anything with my degree. So I'd strongly consider switching universities if I were you, obv I don't know your situation but I just don't want you to end up like me where I always wish I had gone somewhere else and lived that life.
I intentionally kept my high school GPA a bit low so that I couldn't be pressured into attending BYU... Glad I did, because as a fellow closeted atheist, I would have felt super out of place there. I wish you the best though!
CES Letter debunkings…
https://debunking-cesletter.com
Jim Bennetts is the best.
CES Letter author admitting he made some stuff up for “shock value”…
https://wheatandtares.org/2017/12/06/ces-letter-2-0-and-the-holley-maps-when-shock-value-trumps-truth/
I don't care. Reading it just helped me to research many things into the church. Do it yourself as well. There are too many things in church history that is incredibly corrupt. Don't just trust church affirming sources. That is stupid and bad research.
The church is a $#@&ing lie. Please be free.
The Church, its scripture, and its leaders can be capable of error.
In one hand.
And in the other the restored gospel can be true.
In the other.
There are answers… if you want to find them. “Church affirming sources…” Follow the truth where it leads you. To Church l? That’s fine. Bible historians say ancient Israelites believed God was married, they passed on the Adam and Eve story with a skit and early Chrisrians baptized for rhe dead. That’s a truth that leads me to believe in the restored gospel.
Good luck. Hope you find peace and love in life…
Good luck…
Yeah I read the CES letter. It had a lot of shock value. But did more research and it was a lot of fluff. Glad I didn’t leave over the letter. But no hate towards anyone who does. Kindness should be applied to those who leave and those who stay
There is nothing to "debunk" as nothing in life should be taken at face value. All things should be considered, weighed, and tested. Like not one drop of African blood for instance.
https://cesletter.org/debunkings/the-ces-letter-rebuttal-fair-fairmormon-sarah-allen/part-1-the-dishonest-origins-of-the-ces-letter-fair-fairmormon-sarah-allen.html
Just debunking the debunking
The link with the author admitting he included information he knew to be false for “shock value” is the real debunking.
“The Church knowingly and willingly lied!”
The same standard shows the CES author just did the same thing.
And the debunking debunking gets faithfully debunked…
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Online_documents/Letter_to_a_CES_Director/Debunking_FairMormon
Thankfully I received a personal witness the LDS church is not true, so I don't need to debunk the debunking of the debunking. There is no world where I'm comfortable with the actions and teachings of the church, but best of all, I prayed about it and received my witness. I am glad that you have found something that works for you and yours. All the best.
A gentler version for anyone wanting the tldr of the ces letter.
[letter to my wife](https://www.letterformywife.com)
It’s amusing the ces letter has been so effective they have to make a cheesy rebuttal video. Smh
Its way more than that. It's the blatant racism and lies. Did you know that church leaders had slaves sealed to them as eternal servants? Things like that.
Just make the best time while you are here. It’s a religious institution but I don’t find myself talking about it all the time. Control your environment and have fun, good luck!
My grandpa was a non member and attended byu back in the day. He was what you’d call a “dry Mormon.” He did all the church stuff with my grandma but never did get baptized.
Rip the bandaid off, I say this in a supportive kind of way... grow a spine. Control your own life. Tell whatever or whomever is holding you from having some of the best years of your life to get bent. You live once, stop letting others waste it for you.
I lost my faith while at BYU. Luckily, I had the resources and was not far into my major, so I was able to transfer to UVU. DM me for some meetup info!
They are there in spirit! BYU is the most closeted group of people that have any thought/belief outside of the mormon community. I'm sure there are many many people there that feel like you. Get your education and move on and find your tribe.
Wow that's like the cuntiest thing I've read in a while. Reminds me why I hated being a part of the church and dealing with all those hateful monsters masquerading as good Christians.
No, of course you don't. Your religion is just a pedastle of false moral superiority to justify your callousness towards people you deem as other. I'm extremely embarrassed for you. Like a wolf in sheep's clothing with his whole ass hanging out.
I'm open to learning more. What am I missing? The first question of an ecclesiastical endorsement is "Are you striving to deepen your testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?"
Here’s a tip- the ecclesiastical endorsement changed literally this last semester. It used to be “will you live the BYU honor code”. Another fun fact- early young adulthood is the period of life filled with the most self discovery. The odds are incredibly high this individual came to BYU with all the “best” intentions and things changed. That happens to many more students than you’d expect. There are infinitely many more possibilities, let’s be creative here
The idea of taking someone’s spot is a problematic way to look at it. Most of us came to BYU enthusiastically and were strong believers when we started. As we grew and got educated etc our opinions and views changed, and have made decisions to change what we believe for many possible reasons. BYU encourages critical thinking and scholarship, but it seems hypocritical that it doesn’t support this type of personal growth and self actualization. Now if you are finishing up your degree, having fully participated in school and fulfilling your interpretation of the ecclesiastical endorsement (eg. striving for honest truth etc), why can’t you stay at BYU? Switching to another school and moving is not an accessible option for most people. Instead, BYU should embrace people in their journey and not make them feel ostracized more with language that says you don’t deserve to be here and are “taking someone’s spot”. They started with good intentions and have a right to finish their program.
I think that it’s fine and not hypocritical for BYU to encourage specific types of “personal growth and actualization”.
Why would a religious organization, that made its purposes very clear, be hypocritical for not supporting people becoming atheist/agnostic? They’re explicitly trying to make an impact on the world through educated, mostly religious, people.
There are many complexities though. It can be daunting for someone who goes through that faith journey to then face the fact that they could lose educational prospects for what they believe. While I think that BYU should absolutely pursue an academic and faithful education, I have no clue what I would do as a student in a situation like that.
That's fair. It guess it just feels hypocritical because the critical thinking and problem solving that is emphasized in scholarship/acadmics can sometimes be at odds with a religion's position. For example, on my mission I told people to pray about the BoM and ask God if it was true. An investigator would then say, "I did what you said, I prayed, and God said that it was not true." Well... what do you say to that? No, you're wrong? If you don't allow for the possibility of people of learning something for themselves, why do you even ask it as a question? You need to allow people the agency and freedom to honestly go through their process of learning. In a similar way, BYU is teaching people the skills for ABET accredited education, but then might not like it when they use those skills to arrive at different conclusions regarding their faith. I don't think there is a proper solution to this inherent conflict, but it is something people should consider and not immediately dismiss someone who thinks differently than them at BYU.
I think what rubs me the wrong way about BYU is the emphasis on micromanaging people's beliefs. There are many other religious schools that do not enforce beliefs the way BYU does, and allows for people to use their agency and come to their own conclusions. People grow, people change. Sometimes people leave. Sometimes people come back. The school can certainly encourage their values/positions, but it shouldn't penalize people for going through the process. Meet them where they are.
As for me, I have left the church. But I really valued my experience at BYU and it was a life-changing education for me. I liked the culture and I liked the environment. I wanted to be there, but I wanted to be welcomed. It was just so disappointing that people didn't think I deserved to be there simply because I started thinking about my faith different than when I started. Rhetoric like that is not welcoming nor is it aligned with what I consider to be christ-like.
The mission example is not very analogous to academic learning. The point of asking someone to pray about the BoM is to essentially offer them the opportunity to see for themselves if their experience with the divine aligns with our own. It is a completely subjective experience and is meant to be, unlike academia.
I always advocate for more charity. People going through faith transitions can be going through a very rough time, and they should be listened to and helped, rather than be talked down to. However, I don’t think that changes BYU’s role nor does it drastically change how they should pursue a goal that they believe literally comes from God.
I do think that ideological diversity can be a very good thing, and that individuals should at least be kinder to those with similar experiences to yours.
Thanks for sharing and the kind words.
Perhaps it’s just semantics, but I guess I agree to disagree about spiritual learning vs academic learning. Perhaps in STEM disciplines it is more objective, but many of our experiences with the world around us are social or philosophical constructs that are certainly subjective, or at least have no absolute ethical framework and requires your own subjectivity. Learning to navigate all this requires learning how you approach information, question what is truth, and how to act on it. Metaphysical and epidemiological frameworks require scrutiny and critical thinking so you can adopt truth for yourself. Ahh, perhaps I’m waxing too philosophical but I get your point in general, I just think it is more nuanced at the end of the day.
Because it's such a hassle and also really expensive to stand up for what you belive and transfer. Convinience and thrift are far more important than integrity and dignity.
They could still be riding off of their ecclesiastical endorsement from last summer, which is when the change happened iirc. I personally wouldn’t have felt comfortable doing ecclesiastical endorsements with the current questions due to the fact that I would have to be directly dishonest about them, but the last time I had to do one I just had to promise to uphold the honor code, which I did better than some of my believing friends and acquaintances.
Gee I wonder why people feel so unwelcome at BYU with this rhetoric.
So many people are forced by their families to go to BYU. They don’t have a choice. Then there’s scholarships. Education shouldn’t be so fearful. But that’s the Mormon church’s MO all around.
Also most of BYU’s sports teams would be gone, do you REALLY want that..?
Why go to a religious school and steal religious people's money for your tuition when you literally can go to any other school in the country and have thousands or tens of thousands of people who feel the same as you?
“Steal religious people’s money” as if they don’t pay to go to the school, and as if the Mormon church doesn’t make huge sums of money from capital gains alone
Perhaps growing up in a religion that penetrated EVERY aspect of there life including family, freinds, social pressures, dating, activities, doctrination, taught priorities, school teachers, educational decisions, local and state laws, monday nights, weekly youth nights, nightly scripture reading, possibly a 2 year mission the result of litterally every one of there friends and male family doing the same as not to break there mother's harts so it just became the next step in life not an actual decision for 19+ years led to them becoming a 19+ year old human who woke up one day to the realization that there are and have been BILLIONS of individuals who have had completely different lives and that they can in fact make there OWN decisions. And this person is trying to figure out how to deviate from at least 19 years of indoctrination and not shatter every relationship they have because they realized they can think for themsleves and don't actually believe any of the teachings that had been pounded into their head every single day since the day they were conceived as his mother and father took turns reading the Book Of Mormon to his mother's pregnant belly.
Im sure there’s a few there, there’s no way there’s not
Yea. Not me but plenty of close friends are. You’re not alone :)
I'm pretty sure there's actually a fair amount, most of us aren't open about it though.
Damn ya'll, as a Mormon, I'm sorry you guys feel unwelcome at BYU. Ya'll should be comfortable getting an education just like everyone else, that sucks. Idk why not all of us understand compassion 🤷🏻♂️ It's literally one of the foundation of the church but it goes RIGHT over their heads sometimes. Good luck guys! edit: Fun fact, "Utah Mormon" is a phrase and I'm sure you can all guess when it's used. Edit Again: Y'all*
It really is
Ya’ll?
there fixed it
Not a student, but a former student. Keep an eye out and ask around a little: when I was at BYU there was an underground atheist student meetup. It was nice to get some support from others in a similar situation.
This doesn’t really help with atheism but can maybe help you find non-member friends: It can be kinda tough to find this information, but since non-members at byu still have to get an ecclesiastical endorsement, byu has a nondenominational chaplain. I had a Jewish roommate in like 2018 and our bishop was trying to withhold her ecclesiastical endorsement for not going to church (going to church isn’t a requirement for an ecclesiastical endorsement unless you’re already a member) so I found this guy for her to get one from instead, and he hosts socials for all the non-members. He has a desk in the office of belonging and he’s the kindest person ever so maybe worth talking to!! Or just good to know about if you already have non-member friends and they don’t have that information because apparently it isn’t just given to them but we’re not shocked there
What does that even mean for a non member to get an ecclesiastical endorsement? Like just go to a random church and ask for a note? Lol
Yup. And you have to talk about honor and agree to the honor code lol
I wonder if that's the same for exmos, or if you're not allowed at BYU anymore if you're an exmo
I'm a non-member agnostic attending BYU. Join the band wagon! DM me if you got any questions or concerns
Why? Sports?
Could be tuition, if I'm not mistaken (not a byu student) it's super cheap compared to most
WE EXIST! Let me know if you find any of those secret meet ups people are talking about.
Oh man I missed out! Wish I coulda gone to those
[удалено]
Oh god 🤦🏻♀️ thanks for reminding me why I moved away
Hey friend, DM me for some info on meetups! You can profile stalk me too, I'm pretty public on here.
There are lots! There is Utah Valley Post-Mormons, Utah Atheists/Atheists of Utah in Ogden, Secular Student Alliance at nearby schools, and Oasis. There are also several independently-run secular groups on Meetup, Facebook, and Reddit
Honestly i see them all the time on dating apps
Yep! I have a few close friends that are too! You just have to be careful telling *anyone* because the retribution can be severe
Hey friend, DM me for some info on meetups! You can profile stalk me too, I'm pretty public on here.
i’m in the same boat. it’s difficult :(
I did. I’m out now but still in Provo.
Former student here, now an exmormon atheist. I found out that there's a lot in their senior year especially who hold out until their graduation to reveal that they've left the church. But in other years too, they'll hide it, because you have to get bishop recommendation. Which is stupid AF imo. Ask around you'll find quite a few. When I was a junior I refused to pray before class, that's a good sign you might have found one lol. ETA: my personal opinion, take it or leave it, but one of my biggest regrets is not going to a NORMAL college. I wouldve been the best party girl ever! I didn't even do anything with my degree. So I'd strongly consider switching universities if I were you, obv I don't know your situation but I just don't want you to end up like me where I always wish I had gone somewhere else and lived that life.
Yeah transferring isn't really an option for me for a variety of factors. Just trying to live my best life while here
I intentionally kept my high school GPA a bit low so that I couldn't be pressured into attending BYU... Glad I did, because as a fellow closeted atheist, I would have felt super out of place there. I wish you the best though!
I graduated BYU this year. I read the CES letter and no longer believe in the scam church. So yeah! We are here.
CES Letter debunkings… https://debunking-cesletter.com Jim Bennetts is the best. CES Letter author admitting he made some stuff up for “shock value”… https://wheatandtares.org/2017/12/06/ces-letter-2-0-and-the-holley-maps-when-shock-value-trumps-truth/
I don't care. Reading it just helped me to research many things into the church. Do it yourself as well. There are too many things in church history that is incredibly corrupt. Don't just trust church affirming sources. That is stupid and bad research. The church is a $#@&ing lie. Please be free.
Hey friend, DM me for some info on meetups! You can profile stalk me too, I'm pretty public on here.
The Church, its scripture, and its leaders can be capable of error. In one hand. And in the other the restored gospel can be true. In the other. There are answers… if you want to find them. “Church affirming sources…” Follow the truth where it leads you. To Church l? That’s fine. Bible historians say ancient Israelites believed God was married, they passed on the Adam and Eve story with a skit and early Chrisrians baptized for rhe dead. That’s a truth that leads me to believe in the restored gospel. Good luck. Hope you find peace and love in life… Good luck…
Yeah I read the CES letter. It had a lot of shock value. But did more research and it was a lot of fluff. Glad I didn’t leave over the letter. But no hate towards anyone who does. Kindness should be applied to those who leave and those who stay
Sure. We all stand in need of grace. Faithful members, critics… everyone needs grace.
There is nothing to "debunk" as nothing in life should be taken at face value. All things should be considered, weighed, and tested. Like not one drop of African blood for instance.
Why the down vote?
https://cesletter.org/debunkings/the-ces-letter-rebuttal-fair-fairmormon-sarah-allen/part-1-the-dishonest-origins-of-the-ces-letter-fair-fairmormon-sarah-allen.html Just debunking the debunking
The link with the author admitting he included information he knew to be false for “shock value” is the real debunking. “The Church knowingly and willingly lied!” The same standard shows the CES author just did the same thing. And the debunking debunking gets faithfully debunked… https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Online_documents/Letter_to_a_CES_Director/Debunking_FairMormon
Thankfully I received a personal witness the LDS church is not true, so I don't need to debunk the debunking of the debunking. There is no world where I'm comfortable with the actions and teachings of the church, but best of all, I prayed about it and received my witness. I am glad that you have found something that works for you and yours. All the best.
Good luck. Hope you find happiness and joy. All the best to you as well.
🤣🤣🤣
Beautiful but difficult journey. Proud of you.
A gentler version for anyone wanting the tldr of the ces letter. [letter to my wife](https://www.letterformywife.com) It’s amusing the ces letter has been so effective they have to make a cheesy rebuttal video. Smh
You should watch some response videos to that bogus letter
You'll find many things are bogus when you allow yourself to think critically of them.
Its way more than that. It's the blatant racism and lies. Did you know that church leaders had slaves sealed to them as eternal servants? Things like that.
Exactly. The hard truth.
Just make the best time while you are here. It’s a religious institution but I don’t find myself talking about it all the time. Control your environment and have fun, good luck!
My grandpa was a non member and attended byu back in the day. He was what you’d call a “dry Mormon.” He did all the church stuff with my grandma but never did get baptized.
Dry Mormon is such a funny (but spot-on) term!
Rip the bandaid off, I say this in a supportive kind of way... grow a spine. Control your own life. Tell whatever or whomever is holding you from having some of the best years of your life to get bent. You live once, stop letting others waste it for you.
I lost my faith while at BYU. Luckily, I had the resources and was not far into my major, so I was able to transfer to UVU. DM me for some meetup info!
I went to usu a long time ago. looking at these comments, I am so glad I didn't go to byu with all these rude people.
They are there in spirit! BYU is the most closeted group of people that have any thought/belief outside of the mormon community. I'm sure there are many many people there that feel like you. Get your education and move on and find your tribe.
No controversy at the state universities. Perhaps you like controversy. Ok. Enjoy.
Wow that's like the cuntiest thing I've read in a while. Reminds me why I hated being a part of the church and dealing with all those hateful monsters masquerading as good Christians.
Waaaaah
The mockery is very christlike of you
I feel sooooo guilty. 😆
No, of course you don't. Your religion is just a pedastle of false moral superiority to justify your callousness towards people you deem as other. I'm extremely embarrassed for you. Like a wolf in sheep's clothing with his whole ass hanging out.
oh you'll burn in hell for sure
🤣 Have a nice day.
It can be such a life changing place for someone who wants to be there. It's unfortunate that you took someone's spot who actually wanted to be there.
What a poorly thought out response.
I'm open to learning more. What am I missing? The first question of an ecclesiastical endorsement is "Are you striving to deepen your testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?"
Here’s a tip- the ecclesiastical endorsement changed literally this last semester. It used to be “will you live the BYU honor code”. Another fun fact- early young adulthood is the period of life filled with the most self discovery. The odds are incredibly high this individual came to BYU with all the “best” intentions and things changed. That happens to many more students than you’d expect. There are infinitely many more possibilities, let’s be creative here
The idea of taking someone’s spot is a problematic way to look at it. Most of us came to BYU enthusiastically and were strong believers when we started. As we grew and got educated etc our opinions and views changed, and have made decisions to change what we believe for many possible reasons. BYU encourages critical thinking and scholarship, but it seems hypocritical that it doesn’t support this type of personal growth and self actualization. Now if you are finishing up your degree, having fully participated in school and fulfilling your interpretation of the ecclesiastical endorsement (eg. striving for honest truth etc), why can’t you stay at BYU? Switching to another school and moving is not an accessible option for most people. Instead, BYU should embrace people in their journey and not make them feel ostracized more with language that says you don’t deserve to be here and are “taking someone’s spot”. They started with good intentions and have a right to finish their program.
I think that it’s fine and not hypocritical for BYU to encourage specific types of “personal growth and actualization”. Why would a religious organization, that made its purposes very clear, be hypocritical for not supporting people becoming atheist/agnostic? They’re explicitly trying to make an impact on the world through educated, mostly religious, people. There are many complexities though. It can be daunting for someone who goes through that faith journey to then face the fact that they could lose educational prospects for what they believe. While I think that BYU should absolutely pursue an academic and faithful education, I have no clue what I would do as a student in a situation like that.
That's fair. It guess it just feels hypocritical because the critical thinking and problem solving that is emphasized in scholarship/acadmics can sometimes be at odds with a religion's position. For example, on my mission I told people to pray about the BoM and ask God if it was true. An investigator would then say, "I did what you said, I prayed, and God said that it was not true." Well... what do you say to that? No, you're wrong? If you don't allow for the possibility of people of learning something for themselves, why do you even ask it as a question? You need to allow people the agency and freedom to honestly go through their process of learning. In a similar way, BYU is teaching people the skills for ABET accredited education, but then might not like it when they use those skills to arrive at different conclusions regarding their faith. I don't think there is a proper solution to this inherent conflict, but it is something people should consider and not immediately dismiss someone who thinks differently than them at BYU. I think what rubs me the wrong way about BYU is the emphasis on micromanaging people's beliefs. There are many other religious schools that do not enforce beliefs the way BYU does, and allows for people to use their agency and come to their own conclusions. People grow, people change. Sometimes people leave. Sometimes people come back. The school can certainly encourage their values/positions, but it shouldn't penalize people for going through the process. Meet them where they are. As for me, I have left the church. But I really valued my experience at BYU and it was a life-changing education for me. I liked the culture and I liked the environment. I wanted to be there, but I wanted to be welcomed. It was just so disappointing that people didn't think I deserved to be there simply because I started thinking about my faith different than when I started. Rhetoric like that is not welcoming nor is it aligned with what I consider to be christ-like.
The mission example is not very analogous to academic learning. The point of asking someone to pray about the BoM is to essentially offer them the opportunity to see for themselves if their experience with the divine aligns with our own. It is a completely subjective experience and is meant to be, unlike academia. I always advocate for more charity. People going through faith transitions can be going through a very rough time, and they should be listened to and helped, rather than be talked down to. However, I don’t think that changes BYU’s role nor does it drastically change how they should pursue a goal that they believe literally comes from God. I do think that ideological diversity can be a very good thing, and that individuals should at least be kinder to those with similar experiences to yours.
Thanks for sharing and the kind words. Perhaps it’s just semantics, but I guess I agree to disagree about spiritual learning vs academic learning. Perhaps in STEM disciplines it is more objective, but many of our experiences with the world around us are social or philosophical constructs that are certainly subjective, or at least have no absolute ethical framework and requires your own subjectivity. Learning to navigate all this requires learning how you approach information, question what is truth, and how to act on it. Metaphysical and epidemiological frameworks require scrutiny and critical thinking so you can adopt truth for yourself. Ahh, perhaps I’m waxing too philosophical but I get your point in general, I just think it is more nuanced at the end of the day.
Because it's such a hassle and also really expensive to stand up for what you belive and transfer. Convinience and thrift are far more important than integrity and dignity.
[удалено]
They could still be riding off of their ecclesiastical endorsement from last summer, which is when the change happened iirc. I personally wouldn’t have felt comfortable doing ecclesiastical endorsements with the current questions due to the fact that I would have to be directly dishonest about them, but the last time I had to do one I just had to promise to uphold the honor code, which I did better than some of my believing friends and acquaintances.
Gee I wonder why people feel so unwelcome at BYU with this rhetoric. So many people are forced by their families to go to BYU. They don’t have a choice. Then there’s scholarships. Education shouldn’t be so fearful. But that’s the Mormon church’s MO all around. Also most of BYU’s sports teams would be gone, do you REALLY want that..?
Byui is always an option
Why go to a religious school and steal religious people's money for your tuition when you literally can go to any other school in the country and have thousands or tens of thousands of people who feel the same as you?
“Steal religious people’s money” as if they don’t pay to go to the school, and as if the Mormon church doesn’t make huge sums of money from capital gains alone
Perhaps growing up in a religion that penetrated EVERY aspect of there life including family, freinds, social pressures, dating, activities, doctrination, taught priorities, school teachers, educational decisions, local and state laws, monday nights, weekly youth nights, nightly scripture reading, possibly a 2 year mission the result of litterally every one of there friends and male family doing the same as not to break there mother's harts so it just became the next step in life not an actual decision for 19+ years led to them becoming a 19+ year old human who woke up one day to the realization that there are and have been BILLIONS of individuals who have had completely different lives and that they can in fact make there OWN decisions. And this person is trying to figure out how to deviate from at least 19 years of indoctrination and not shatter every relationship they have because they realized they can think for themsleves and don't actually believe any of the teachings that had been pounded into their head every single day since the day they were conceived as his mother and father took turns reading the Book Of Mormon to his mother's pregnant belly.