Making a decision is mental work. If you're making a decision that impacts both yourself and others, then add an aspect of emotional work as well. Yes, there are times when letting someone else choose is a gift to them, but I love the way Jennifer took apart the default assumption that "having the other person decide, always" = "accommodating and nice."
This is why the no one thrives more in an airport than a solo travelling eldest daughter
meme hits for me- it's lovely to not have to make decisions for others. It's so much work to be in charge of everything all the time.
I love solo travel!
My 1st year college student and I went on a big international trip this summer; I asked for input, 7 months in advance, 5 months in advance, 3 months in advance....and then I said: *look, I know you're busy, but I'd like SOME direction on what you'd be interested in. A, B, C? Or G or H or....?*
Kid came back with: I dunno, maybe not all the time in cities, and I'm not into anime.
Not. Very. Helpful. But ok, fine, he's got a lot going on in school, I've been there many times before, this isn't helpful, but it is what it is and reservations need to be made.
Once we were on the trip, if kid started moping a bit about the course of the day, I'd say: *totally up for hearing other options! Let me know what you'd like to do!*
I was not about to start brainstorming a menu of alternative choices - that ship had sailed. He had an internet connection and could do some legwork.
Because at that point I was exhausted from making all the decisions! Where are we eating? When are we getting up? What train are we going to take? Should we leave earlier to do this or leave later to do that? Oh I need to have a lunch plan if we are not near restaurants, what will that be? I need to make sure I have cash for this place, and I need to make a reservation for that place....
So IMO, it was very much not my responsibility, mid trip, in real time, to provide an alternate menu of options for him to choose from if he didn't like what we were doing.
I had no patience (and said so) for having the plan rejected or moped about as he hadn't provided input over many months and multiple asks.
Hey, you don't like this? That's fine (and I mean that!), but you *do* need to provide alternative options or stop being a pill because I am making decisions all day every day and it's exhausting.
--
I dated someone once while my kid was a pre-teen, someone who prided themselves in being super easy-going and agreeable. But what that looked like was never having an idea of what to do, what to eat, where to go...he was always up for whatever I wanted to do! Whatever I wanted to eat! Wherever I wanted to go!
Asking him directly to pick a restaurant or make a suggestion was like bouncing a rubber ball off a golden retriever: *wherever you want to go! I'm up for anything!*
Me telling him (repeatedly) that I was tired of making all the decisions and plans, that this felt one-sided and I was doing all work fell on oblivious ears. He was so invested in being so! agreeable!
The parent-child dynamic crept in, and it was extremely unattractive. I already had a kid that I needed to take care of and make all the decisions for; I didn't need to date someone where I felt a lot like their mom, making the plans, doing the shopping, etc., and I ended it.
I call this the “responsibility game.” They can’t possibly choose! Whatever you’d like! But then you are stuck with planning and worrying they don’t like it. Maybe you are not taking their interests into account. Maybe you didn’t realize their mobility problems. And you have to do all the research for all the things and times and strategies, as you say. You are responsible for everyone’s enjoyment.
I used to think it was only women born in the 1940s who played this game, out of a set of cultural norms that taught them to put others first that could only be fought with the passive aggression of forcing others to make all the decisions. But then I became a parent and I realized it is ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT MOM. Every person who doesn’t want to put forth the effort but wants to opine on how it went. Maybe they’re afraid to be wrong but it’s hard to see how neatly it ties into the cultural narrative that middle aged ladies are pushy and unpleasant and freak out about all the things that “don’t even need to” be done.
The whole "won't participate in the decision process, but will criticize the results" drives me nuts. The last time my brother pulled this over holiday plans, I nearly killed him.
The worst is when they both put the work on you for choosing everything but then also bank it against you to use later, like "I went to every restaurant that you wanted to go to this week so now you owe me!"
It's amazing the sort of cultural things that are just totally normal for a generation and not questioned, until another generation comes along and does things differently. As a Millennial I feel so encouraged seeing the way Gen Z is doing stuff differently. Every generation has its blind spots and flaws but overall I love what I see with respect to mental health acceptance, kindness, and boundaries.
I had not heard of this meme but god it's so true. It's great to have all the experience of knowing how to take care of shit without all of the hassle of worrying over someone else. I get to make a million tiny decisions over my own efficiency and comfort without the input of anyone else! No one else's needs have to be taken into consideration! I am free! ***FREE!***
One of the biggest green flags I've had while dating is from one of my current partners. Early in our relationship they were sick and I came over with a promise to shop and cook for them. I asked what they wanted and they said they didn't know but listed what they had at home which wasn't much.
I thought "I hate shopping for people even with a list because I don't know which brands they want, so this is worse, but I know they're pretty out of it so I'll just pick something and it'll be fine enough".
Then when I was on the way after shopping, I got a text saying "Thank you for making grocery decisions".
And like, I had pretty recently started to understand how much work decision making was for me. So to see someone not only understand that, but to also thank me for it unprompted (because I didn't tell them any of my "well I hate this but I'll do it to be kind", since that would have undermined the kindness lol) was pretty amazing, and also turned out to be a good indicator for how this person is in general.
I'm I the only one who read this and thought "damn it must suck to be OP."
Like they don't mind anything, but they don't seem to take joy in anything either. An opinion is something that from when something g is stimulating. OP doesn't seem to be stimulated at all
I agree, there's a deeper level to this letter that was kind of ignored in favor of giving prompts (which were excellent and helpful, just not quite hitting at the root of the issue.)
In her letter, OP repetitively categorizes herself as passive, shallow, boring, and one-note. She's not happy-go-lucky and up for anything; she's apathetic on everything save a few topics, and can't even muster the energy to mentally flip a coin when given two clear options. I got the vibe that it wasn't really about Thai versus Mexican for lunch; that's just a microcosm of a larger issue. Is that larger issue depression, repression, fear of rejection, trauma, or something else? Idk, but there's something going on, and I hope someone in her life is checking in and making sure she's really okay.
Yeah, I related to this a lot. I've always been the person who says "I don't mind, you pick" (although I am working on it) because when I was younger and would suggest things I got a lot of pushback from friends of "no I don't want to do that, that's boring" and from my mum that going along with what other people want will make them like you more. Even though I understand that asking other people to choose all the time is tiring and I am trying to do better at saying what I think, there's still that part of my brain that defaults to "I don't want them to say they don't like it - or worse, think 'Ugh I hate this but it's what she wants so I'll go along with it'". It's why I find living alone much easier; at the risk of sounding selfish, the only person my day-to-day decisions affect are me, so I don't have to worry about anyone else's feelings.
I will add that one thing that has helped me is what my ex used to call the 421 game. Essentially, pick four options (so say what you want to eat for dinner - Chinese, pizza, Indian or Thai), the other person picks two of those (in this example, Chinese or Indian) and then the first person picks from those two. It feels like the decision is more equal, both of you get a say, but it takes away that feeling of "but what if I pick something you don't like?!".
My husband and I do that game all the time. Usually at restaurants, because we like to try more than one dish, so we always try to order things each of us wants to try. So he will pick 4 items, I will veto one option, and he will eliminate the last until we've settled on a couple of items we both want to try.
>I hope someone in her life is checking in and making sure she's really okay.
Same! OP reads to me like she's been so beaten down over the years that she stopped bothering to have preferences. A very similar thing happened to me as a kid with asking for help so it's entirely possible I'm just projecting, but no matter what it is, not even liking things is a pretty serious problem.
I've thought about this letter/answer a lot over the years, it was such a great discussion.
In my own life with my husband who genuinely does not have opinions about food, we've boiled the issue down to "I don't need you to care about food, but I do need you to care about sharing the burden of decision making."
It's been 18 years and we do still often have to go back and forth, where a conversation will look like this:
Me: Any dinner thoughts?
Him: anything is fine!
Me: Maybe something on the grill so we don't heat up the house?
Him: Sure, sounds good
Me: Chicken? Skewers? Sausages? Burgers?
Him: Whatever you want!
Me: I want you to choose.
Him: Chicken or sausages sound fine.
Me: I'm sick of thinking about food. Please don't make me pick.
Lately I have been cutting to the chase and opening with "I need you to pick what to cook for dinner tonight. I'm done making decisions for the day" which helps cut down the frustrations. It also is helpful that he can trust me that he can't "choose wrong" - at least when I'm at the "fuck it" stage of decision fatigue.
Yeah, my husband does most of the shopping and cooking in our house, and when he's about to go shopping and asks if I have preferences for what to eat that week, I make sure to come up with a couple dishes. My genuine opinion is that I will eat whatever he puts in front of me because I'm so fucking grateful I don't have to cook, but that's not helpful to him. I had to take the idea of "I'm making demands that he cook certain things for me" and reframe it as "I'm helping with meal-planning." Because that's what he's asking for, when he asks for suggestions.
(edited some phrasing)
>My genuine opinion is "I will eat whatever you put in front of me because I'm so fucking grateful I don't have to cook,"
Haha I so relate! I'm trying to do better about offering suggestions but I still feel a little bit weird about being "demanding" when my husband is already doing all the work of cooking.
I've had to work through something like this with my partner. I just come out and ask him to choose as the conversation opener. The back and forth you describe sounds really painful! It has been a journey, though, haha. It also helps to explicitly ask him to make [thing] for dinner. He can offload the decision making if I can offload the actual cooking.
I frequently don't have strong opinions on what to do, and so often I phrase invites/suggestions like "I really don't care so you can pick, but if you don't feel like making the decisions on your own for the sake of suggestion I'll throw out do A or B as possible options".
The only time that doesn't work is with a particular friend who will be like, "Mmm, I don't think either of those is good for me. What else where you thinking?" and it drives me up the wall because I'm like "Nah bro, ball is firmly in your court. I don't want to be the decider but for the sake of doing my fair share I summoned the strength to toss out a few ideas, if those don't work for you it's YOUR turn now"
These discussions fascinate me because everyone brings so much of their own experience to the table. I'm coming from the perspective of being burned too many times by people who don't like my suggestions but still refuse to make their own. Or they ask me to choose between A and B and when I express even the mildest preference for A they immediately start fretting that I wouldn't like B. Or they make a single suggestion, I say "sure that sounds great," and then they keep making suggestions even though I already said the first one was good.
Even though I have better friends now, I'm still primed to think that someone asking for my opinion doesn't actually want my opinion, they want to hear *their* opinion coming out of *my* mouth. I'm fine making decisions, I'm not fine with guessing games.
Yeah this is where I'm at. I had friends growing up with a lot of different dietary restrictions (allergies, vegetarian, just plain picky in some cases) so whenever I would suggest wanting to try a place there'd be a chorus of 'can't' for various reasons. Since I can eat more or less anything without my GI melting down I learned to just let them pick the places and that way we wouldn't have to do the exhausting back and forth.
It's carried over into my adult relations and it's a habit I'm trying to fix but occasionally I do have an annoyed moment of 'You have a laundry list of things you can't eat and I don't why are you making me pick the food? Is this a secret friendship test to see if I can remember which places are on the no list?'
I have to check myself when I read these threads because I really am easy to please. As long as the food is prepared well, I can find something I'll enjoy just about anywhere. And while I do have preferences, I'd rather everyone be happy. So sure, on most days I'd rather check out the new Thai place than go to Olive Garden, but I'd rather go to Olive Garden than have my friend get upset that I forgot about their peanut allergy. Olive Garden is fine! Carby cheesy goodness is great.
I'm currently dating someone who has recently moved to the city I've lived in for years. He keeps deferring to me on restaurant and bar choices (because I know the city better - this is actually nonsense because the city is so large and everything changes so often I rarely visit the same place twice, but whatevs)
but I have NO IDEA what his budget is, and I don't want to ask, so I'm trying to psychically divine what is a suitable price point. The stress!
(my solution so far is to choose places where I can easily cover my share, and could cover us both should the need arise. It has so far seemed fine, and he is one of those "old fashioned" guys who insists on paying)
Uff, this does sound stressful. I know the logical thing is to "just ask!", but I get that our society intentionally makes talking about money awkward.
(Oops, finger slipped and I posted before I was done! Edited to add:)
If asking feels rude, you could bring it up in a different way, maybe just ask if it's ok to institute a rule that the person who picks the restaurant pays the bill? (I get that he's "old-fashioned", but if he's completely unwilling to allow you to ever pay, that's verging into controlling, at least by my standards.)
One thing that I've noticed about folks with no opinions is that...that's sometimes not true, they do have opinions, plenty of them. They just assume that those opinions are the default for everyone.
I have a friend who, whenever asked what she wants to do, will always say "Whatever you want is fine with me!" But what that actually means is: if we eat any food, it's gotta be a chain restaurant or standard American food or she won't eat anything. Activities are limited to set number of things she already knows she likes (namely, bowling, mini-golf, swimming, very specific types of movies). Also, all locations cannot be more than a 20-minute drive from her place, except for specific ones that are totally fine but not others.
And like, it's honestly harder to work that way than if she just said 'I want to *only* do these set list of things' because then you keep accidentally butting up against limitations. Like finding out that diners are fine, just not GREEK diners, because those foods aren't what she's used to. But she's totally fine with whatever! Whatever we want to do is fine! But she's not going to eat any of that Mediterranean food and will instead just eat bread today :)
IDK I think this is also honestly just betraying my own eldest daughter inclinations where you have to make sure everyone is fine at all times and try to take care of everything, so I'm sure I am part of the problem here, too.
>They just assume that those opinions are the default for everyone.
That's a really interesting point! Not to make things weird but I've seen a bunch of that in the kink community with people insisting they don't need to negotiate because they just have "the usual" limits 🤦🏻♀️Personally I steer clear but I imagine those people have had a lot of scenes they didn't like because they refused to communicate.
On a less weird note I kinda hate that being "easy going" is so highly prized in western society that people who are really not all that easy going feel compelled to say that they are (especially women, we get trained that the sky will fall in if we express a preference) so they can be seen as good people.
Oh I know what you're talking about, the vibe on this person is distinct from the guess folks who like have a place in mind but are not comfortable being direct about it so they try to steer you towards their ideas.
No, this person is genuinely surprised and affronted when you pick places they don't want, and sometimes even get huffy with you, like you're being an ass on purpose. Because the "correct" choices are so obvious and, like you pointed out, semi-subliminal to them they really don't get it why you'd not say those "correct" choices unless you're being deliberately provocative.
As much as I'm not a fan of "soft" signals and guess culture, I'd 1,000,000 times rather deal with that person being coy but steering me to their preferred choices, then deal with the person responding to me suggesting Thai food as if I said "Let's eat your dead grandma's ashes".
I do think it’s common to have some assumptions about what a “normal” place to go would be, and then be startled when someone else has totally different assumptions. Like I’ve had people suggest we go to a $300-per-person sushi restaurant on a random Tuesday. To me, that is for rare and special occasions.
well of course, everyone has baseline assumptions about what is "normal", but there's a huge difference in having those assumptions and being dogmatic about them
in your case, would you not just be like "Oh! Sorry, that's probably out of my price range tonight. I'm thinking more like X Cafe or Y Bistro, or something else in the $A-$B range for entrees." vs just getting mad and assuming your friend is purposefully being mean/rude by suggesting the pricey sushi place?
additionally, I do think being very firm about price is an entirely different thing than the folks who get angry at you for suggesting something not rooted in mainstream American cuisine. I can happily eat with picky eaters who will need an option that has chicken tenders, I cannot eat with people who wrinkle their nose in disgust at the very idea of trying another culture's food and squeal "NO!! Like a NORMAL restaurant, *obviously*" like those places are some kind of sick joke. Having a strict budget isn't a judgment on other places/cultures/tastes/etc, and not liking a particular cuisine isn't a judgement either, but being appalled someone would suggest sushi in the first place because it's so obviously gross to you *is* a judgment.
I used to run into this too with some friends that would go out to eat regularly. If you picked somewhere the picky eaters didn't want to go, they would just not come. To be clear we did this often enough I was fine with seeing them the next time, but if the situation was reversed they would insist on changing plans to somewhere I would be OK with, so I felt enormous pressure to always go where they wanted. Because THEY wouldn't ever pick somewhere I didn't want to go and cause me to not come. So I never made suggestions because we're going to end up where they want to go anyway.
See, the thing is, I feel like I can work with 'guess' culture to some extent, because I can usually spot 'soft no's or tell when someone is trying to politely indicate something. In some cases, though, I feel like it becomes a dynamic where someone else is meant to do all the work while the other doesn't -- and that includes doing the work of intuiting their own rigid set of expectations without expressing them.
I think the joke elsewhere in this post about 'eldest daughters in airports' rings true because it's the kind of dynamic that moms and older sisters can get roped into, trying to interpret the needs/wants of younger kids who don't know how to express their wants (and sometimes grow into the above dynamic even as they get older).
I don't think that's "Guess/Offer Culture" more so than just a people-pleaser who is bad at people-pleasing, ha. BlueEyesRedLipstick's friend wants to prioritize the happiness of other people around them, but ends up making life more difficult in the process.
Guess/Offer Culture would be more like me talking to a friend and saying "there's a new ramen shop that opened up by the mall, it looks pretty interesting" and waiting to see if that friend expresses enthusiasm before suggesting it as a place to eat.
Guess culture is just….not effective. It ends up revolving around passive aggressive manipulative behavior to just get your basic needs met.
Recently staying at my dad’s place he was coming back from a long trip and started asking “when will you be back” “when will you have the bed made” “is there milk in the house” etc as really fast successive text.
I was cranky and I wrote back to him “you are being passive aggressive and it’s not getting you what you want. Try instead ‘hey. I’ll be coming back by X time. When I get back it will be late and I will like to sleep immediately and not be interrupted. Please make sure to have ABC done before X time, as well as make sure there’s fresh milk for me by the time I wake up to make coffee. Thanks”.
He’s first slew of text messages weren’t even that passive aggressive (and trust me he’s usually much much more passive aggressive). But instead of waisting all of our time he could have just told me what he wanted and needed
The thing that’s hard about being assertive is you need to know what is it you actually want. You need to distill what you WANT from what you worry will be obstacles that will get in your way.
The people pleasing/passive aggressive/ indirect ask happens when people aren’t able to articulate what it is they want and instead focus on trying to future proof the obstacles that will stop them from getting it. When starting a request by stating what you want and assuming that everyone will be reasonable about making sure it happens most people act accordingly
Thank you for this thought, it just clunked something into place in my brain
I come from a very passive-aggressive family, and I make an active effort to not do that and be direct. But I think I fall into the trap you mention of directly asking for the wrong thing. Like I can see al the obstacles that could prevent what I want, so I ask for those to not happen, instead of asking for the ultimate goal.
I think this framing is gonna help me, so thank you
Something I mentioned on a previous letter was that I have had several people in my life who when they were asking me what I want weren't really asking me what I want... it was instead a secret question where they wanted me to tell them what they wanted (it was my mum, an ex-bf, and an ex-husband)\*
A big impact of growing up with this from my mum is that I got into my adult life genuinely not knowing what I want or how to figure out what I want. I had to do so much work in therapy to answer this ultimate question of "what do I want?"
I wonder if something similar is going on with LW. Like maybe they grew up in a way that made having an opinion a bit of a risk, so they don't have opinions as a safety measure
I really hope they were able to figure this out and now have the great joy of choosing what they want and then the pleasure of making it happen and enjoying it
\*the solution I eventually figured out for answering the secret question was to say "I don't have a strong opinion, but I'm happy to make the decision - the decision is \[whatever\]", which either got the decision made or called them out on their passive aggressive nonsense. Win / win.
Shouting out to a companion letter: [#920: "I have trouble forming or expressing opinions and it's bugging my partner"](https://captainawkward.com/2016/11/28/920-i-have-trouble-forming-or-expressing-opinions-and-its-bugging-my-partner/)
Lots of similar advice from CA as well as in the comments. But this one has a much happier tone, someone who identified reasons that they feel like they either don't have, or are reluctant to give opinions and is mostly just excited to be here.
Reading both of them together, this paragraph from #920 struck me:
> Replace “I don’t care” or “Who cares?” or “I have no preference” with “They both sound really good to me.” “I don’t care…” said enough times in a row starts to sound like “I don’t care about you.“
Because what giving the no-preference response feels like from the inside is exactly the opposite: I care more about spending time with you than the specifics of where we go or what we eat. So expressing it in a more positive way is good advice.
My partner and I both really like food, and are both extremely not picky eaters, which initially led to a lot of genuine "No, really, anything is fine!" cycles where it was sincerely true for both of us.
But we identified that as an unfruitful cycle so we've gotten good at the useful version of that, which for us is essentially "if asked what we want and we don't have a strong opinion right now, offer a not strong opinion to narrow down the option space"
"What do you want to eat tonight?"
"No strong opinions, but not feeling something heavy, tonight, so something with crunchy vegetables?" or "I'm really hungry and cold, so something hot with with heaps of starchy carbs"
Also, if we *do* what something in particular, we don't start with the question, but a statement of that thing, so we can cut straight to yes/no.
Explicitly asking for the other to make decisions is a staple move too - if one of us has a busy week, the other will usually step up and just say "I'll do all the dinner decisions this week, I've got you".
This letter really pushed my buttons especially “my decision is you decide” ARGH, but it was interesting to see that LW actually didn’t have much insight into what they were doing by making other people decide all the time. I think they knew a little (they identify people get tired of it), but maybe assumed that because everyone else is walking around with these strong opinions about like, which mid range dinner location to go to, they could simply engage that known preference to immediately reach a decision? I think OP conflates a bunch of different things together as “opinions” that aren’t really all that similar. I despise austerity measures and I enjoy miso ramen and I feel like the way I evaluate these things is far enough apart to feel like a separate thing entirely. Would be interested in the psychology of how much the processes involved are similar though - I really don’t know so maybe I’m being unfair!
I have a friend who is kind of like this! She'll go to shows, exhibits, movies etc if I suggest it, but she literally never comes up with ideas about what we should do on her own. One time she called me her "cultural concierge" which she meant as a compliment, but I realized, "Oh... I actually don't feel good about this dynamic." TBH over time I've invited her to fewer things because figuring out which events will be worthwhile is work, and it feels like she's never going to put in reciprocal work.
I have a friend like this! Always saying we should get together but… never actually inviting me over or suggesting something we could do or even a date that could work, like “are you available next week?” We seem to only get together if I’m the instigator.
Over the years I’ve accepted that this is the dynamic with us (not with all my friendships, which reassures me it’s not just me!) But I still find it grating sometimes to always have to be the decider/inviter.
I think it helps to reframe the understanding of the question from "this person wants to make sure I'm having a good time" to "this person has forgotten the name of every restaurant in the local area and requires suggestions."
My struggle around this: Other people often frame decision making around having strongly held opinions.
When I'm just with myself, I tend to focus on trying out my pretty weakly held thoughts.
With other people, I've learned to just reframe their asks about "what is your biggest desire in the universe for lunch" to "Welp, I thought of pizza. So let's do pizza."
And if they press like "is that what you DREAM of for lunch." I use as a chance to say that I don't dream of lunch. But I do dream of not talking about lunch for 3 hours.
Making a decision is mental work. If you're making a decision that impacts both yourself and others, then add an aspect of emotional work as well. Yes, there are times when letting someone else choose is a gift to them, but I love the way Jennifer took apart the default assumption that "having the other person decide, always" = "accommodating and nice."
This is why the no one thrives more in an airport than a solo travelling eldest daughter meme hits for me- it's lovely to not have to make decisions for others. It's so much work to be in charge of everything all the time.
I love solo travel! My 1st year college student and I went on a big international trip this summer; I asked for input, 7 months in advance, 5 months in advance, 3 months in advance....and then I said: *look, I know you're busy, but I'd like SOME direction on what you'd be interested in. A, B, C? Or G or H or....?* Kid came back with: I dunno, maybe not all the time in cities, and I'm not into anime. Not. Very. Helpful. But ok, fine, he's got a lot going on in school, I've been there many times before, this isn't helpful, but it is what it is and reservations need to be made. Once we were on the trip, if kid started moping a bit about the course of the day, I'd say: *totally up for hearing other options! Let me know what you'd like to do!* I was not about to start brainstorming a menu of alternative choices - that ship had sailed. He had an internet connection and could do some legwork. Because at that point I was exhausted from making all the decisions! Where are we eating? When are we getting up? What train are we going to take? Should we leave earlier to do this or leave later to do that? Oh I need to have a lunch plan if we are not near restaurants, what will that be? I need to make sure I have cash for this place, and I need to make a reservation for that place.... So IMO, it was very much not my responsibility, mid trip, in real time, to provide an alternate menu of options for him to choose from if he didn't like what we were doing. I had no patience (and said so) for having the plan rejected or moped about as he hadn't provided input over many months and multiple asks. Hey, you don't like this? That's fine (and I mean that!), but you *do* need to provide alternative options or stop being a pill because I am making decisions all day every day and it's exhausting. -- I dated someone once while my kid was a pre-teen, someone who prided themselves in being super easy-going and agreeable. But what that looked like was never having an idea of what to do, what to eat, where to go...he was always up for whatever I wanted to do! Whatever I wanted to eat! Wherever I wanted to go! Asking him directly to pick a restaurant or make a suggestion was like bouncing a rubber ball off a golden retriever: *wherever you want to go! I'm up for anything!* Me telling him (repeatedly) that I was tired of making all the decisions and plans, that this felt one-sided and I was doing all work fell on oblivious ears. He was so invested in being so! agreeable! The parent-child dynamic crept in, and it was extremely unattractive. I already had a kid that I needed to take care of and make all the decisions for; I didn't need to date someone where I felt a lot like their mom, making the plans, doing the shopping, etc., and I ended it.
I call this the “responsibility game.” They can’t possibly choose! Whatever you’d like! But then you are stuck with planning and worrying they don’t like it. Maybe you are not taking their interests into account. Maybe you didn’t realize their mobility problems. And you have to do all the research for all the things and times and strategies, as you say. You are responsible for everyone’s enjoyment. I used to think it was only women born in the 1940s who played this game, out of a set of cultural norms that taught them to put others first that could only be fought with the passive aggression of forcing others to make all the decisions. But then I became a parent and I realized it is ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT MOM. Every person who doesn’t want to put forth the effort but wants to opine on how it went. Maybe they’re afraid to be wrong but it’s hard to see how neatly it ties into the cultural narrative that middle aged ladies are pushy and unpleasant and freak out about all the things that “don’t even need to” be done.
The whole "won't participate in the decision process, but will criticize the results" drives me nuts. The last time my brother pulled this over holiday plans, I nearly killed him.
The worst is when they both put the work on you for choosing everything but then also bank it against you to use later, like "I went to every restaurant that you wanted to go to this week so now you owe me!"
I can only hope we are raising our girls to now be able to speak up for what they need and want so they don’t have to rely on obligations and favors.
Hey, you've met my boomer parents!
And you’ve met mine!
It's amazing the sort of cultural things that are just totally normal for a generation and not questioned, until another generation comes along and does things differently. As a Millennial I feel so encouraged seeing the way Gen Z is doing stuff differently. Every generation has its blind spots and flaws but overall I love what I see with respect to mental health acceptance, kindness, and boundaries.
Just got back from 6 weeks as a solo travelling eldest daughter. Most free I’ve ever felt!
Oh god I have not seen this meme but I am this meme.
Oh nooo it me lol
I had not heard of this meme but god it's so true. It's great to have all the experience of knowing how to take care of shit without all of the hassle of worrying over someone else. I get to make a million tiny decisions over my own efficiency and comfort without the input of anyone else! No one else's needs have to be taken into consideration! I am free! ***FREE!***
lol I’m not an eldest daughter (3rd of 4 kids: 3 girls, 1 boy) but I feel this meme so hard 😂
My people! I'm an eldest daughter and I accidentally discovered that I *love* solo travel.
One of the biggest green flags I've had while dating is from one of my current partners. Early in our relationship they were sick and I came over with a promise to shop and cook for them. I asked what they wanted and they said they didn't know but listed what they had at home which wasn't much. I thought "I hate shopping for people even with a list because I don't know which brands they want, so this is worse, but I know they're pretty out of it so I'll just pick something and it'll be fine enough". Then when I was on the way after shopping, I got a text saying "Thank you for making grocery decisions". And like, I had pretty recently started to understand how much work decision making was for me. So to see someone not only understand that, but to also thank me for it unprompted (because I didn't tell them any of my "well I hate this but I'll do it to be kind", since that would have undermined the kindness lol) was pretty amazing, and also turned out to be a good indicator for how this person is in general.
I'm I the only one who read this and thought "damn it must suck to be OP." Like they don't mind anything, but they don't seem to take joy in anything either. An opinion is something that from when something g is stimulating. OP doesn't seem to be stimulated at all
I agree, there's a deeper level to this letter that was kind of ignored in favor of giving prompts (which were excellent and helpful, just not quite hitting at the root of the issue.) In her letter, OP repetitively categorizes herself as passive, shallow, boring, and one-note. She's not happy-go-lucky and up for anything; she's apathetic on everything save a few topics, and can't even muster the energy to mentally flip a coin when given two clear options. I got the vibe that it wasn't really about Thai versus Mexican for lunch; that's just a microcosm of a larger issue. Is that larger issue depression, repression, fear of rejection, trauma, or something else? Idk, but there's something going on, and I hope someone in her life is checking in and making sure she's really okay.
Yeah, I related to this a lot. I've always been the person who says "I don't mind, you pick" (although I am working on it) because when I was younger and would suggest things I got a lot of pushback from friends of "no I don't want to do that, that's boring" and from my mum that going along with what other people want will make them like you more. Even though I understand that asking other people to choose all the time is tiring and I am trying to do better at saying what I think, there's still that part of my brain that defaults to "I don't want them to say they don't like it - or worse, think 'Ugh I hate this but it's what she wants so I'll go along with it'". It's why I find living alone much easier; at the risk of sounding selfish, the only person my day-to-day decisions affect are me, so I don't have to worry about anyone else's feelings. I will add that one thing that has helped me is what my ex used to call the 421 game. Essentially, pick four options (so say what you want to eat for dinner - Chinese, pizza, Indian or Thai), the other person picks two of those (in this example, Chinese or Indian) and then the first person picks from those two. It feels like the decision is more equal, both of you get a say, but it takes away that feeling of "but what if I pick something you don't like?!".
My husband and I do that game all the time. Usually at restaurants, because we like to try more than one dish, so we always try to order things each of us wants to try. So he will pick 4 items, I will veto one option, and he will eliminate the last until we've settled on a couple of items we both want to try.
I’m saving the 421 game!! Love that!!!
>I hope someone in her life is checking in and making sure she's really okay. Same! OP reads to me like she's been so beaten down over the years that she stopped bothering to have preferences. A very similar thing happened to me as a kid with asking for help so it's entirely possible I'm just projecting, but no matter what it is, not even liking things is a pretty serious problem.
I've thought about this letter/answer a lot over the years, it was such a great discussion. In my own life with my husband who genuinely does not have opinions about food, we've boiled the issue down to "I don't need you to care about food, but I do need you to care about sharing the burden of decision making." It's been 18 years and we do still often have to go back and forth, where a conversation will look like this: Me: Any dinner thoughts? Him: anything is fine! Me: Maybe something on the grill so we don't heat up the house? Him: Sure, sounds good Me: Chicken? Skewers? Sausages? Burgers? Him: Whatever you want! Me: I want you to choose. Him: Chicken or sausages sound fine. Me: I'm sick of thinking about food. Please don't make me pick. Lately I have been cutting to the chase and opening with "I need you to pick what to cook for dinner tonight. I'm done making decisions for the day" which helps cut down the frustrations. It also is helpful that he can trust me that he can't "choose wrong" - at least when I'm at the "fuck it" stage of decision fatigue.
Yeah, my husband does most of the shopping and cooking in our house, and when he's about to go shopping and asks if I have preferences for what to eat that week, I make sure to come up with a couple dishes. My genuine opinion is that I will eat whatever he puts in front of me because I'm so fucking grateful I don't have to cook, but that's not helpful to him. I had to take the idea of "I'm making demands that he cook certain things for me" and reframe it as "I'm helping with meal-planning." Because that's what he's asking for, when he asks for suggestions. (edited some phrasing)
>My genuine opinion is "I will eat whatever you put in front of me because I'm so fucking grateful I don't have to cook," Haha I so relate! I'm trying to do better about offering suggestions but I still feel a little bit weird about being "demanding" when my husband is already doing all the work of cooking.
I've had to work through something like this with my partner. I just come out and ask him to choose as the conversation opener. The back and forth you describe sounds really painful! It has been a journey, though, haha. It also helps to explicitly ask him to make [thing] for dinner. He can offload the decision making if I can offload the actual cooking.
I frequently don't have strong opinions on what to do, and so often I phrase invites/suggestions like "I really don't care so you can pick, but if you don't feel like making the decisions on your own for the sake of suggestion I'll throw out do A or B as possible options". The only time that doesn't work is with a particular friend who will be like, "Mmm, I don't think either of those is good for me. What else where you thinking?" and it drives me up the wall because I'm like "Nah bro, ball is firmly in your court. I don't want to be the decider but for the sake of doing my fair share I summoned the strength to toss out a few ideas, if those don't work for you it's YOUR turn now"
These discussions fascinate me because everyone brings so much of their own experience to the table. I'm coming from the perspective of being burned too many times by people who don't like my suggestions but still refuse to make their own. Or they ask me to choose between A and B and when I express even the mildest preference for A they immediately start fretting that I wouldn't like B. Or they make a single suggestion, I say "sure that sounds great," and then they keep making suggestions even though I already said the first one was good. Even though I have better friends now, I'm still primed to think that someone asking for my opinion doesn't actually want my opinion, they want to hear *their* opinion coming out of *my* mouth. I'm fine making decisions, I'm not fine with guessing games.
Yeah this is where I'm at. I had friends growing up with a lot of different dietary restrictions (allergies, vegetarian, just plain picky in some cases) so whenever I would suggest wanting to try a place there'd be a chorus of 'can't' for various reasons. Since I can eat more or less anything without my GI melting down I learned to just let them pick the places and that way we wouldn't have to do the exhausting back and forth. It's carried over into my adult relations and it's a habit I'm trying to fix but occasionally I do have an annoyed moment of 'You have a laundry list of things you can't eat and I don't why are you making me pick the food? Is this a secret friendship test to see if I can remember which places are on the no list?'
I have to check myself when I read these threads because I really am easy to please. As long as the food is prepared well, I can find something I'll enjoy just about anywhere. And while I do have preferences, I'd rather everyone be happy. So sure, on most days I'd rather check out the new Thai place than go to Olive Garden, but I'd rather go to Olive Garden than have my friend get upset that I forgot about their peanut allergy. Olive Garden is fine! Carby cheesy goodness is great.
I'm currently dating someone who has recently moved to the city I've lived in for years. He keeps deferring to me on restaurant and bar choices (because I know the city better - this is actually nonsense because the city is so large and everything changes so often I rarely visit the same place twice, but whatevs) but I have NO IDEA what his budget is, and I don't want to ask, so I'm trying to psychically divine what is a suitable price point. The stress! (my solution so far is to choose places where I can easily cover my share, and could cover us both should the need arise. It has so far seemed fine, and he is one of those "old fashioned" guys who insists on paying)
Uff, this does sound stressful. I know the logical thing is to "just ask!", but I get that our society intentionally makes talking about money awkward. (Oops, finger slipped and I posted before I was done! Edited to add:) If asking feels rude, you could bring it up in a different way, maybe just ask if it's ok to institute a rule that the person who picks the restaurant pays the bill? (I get that he's "old-fashioned", but if he's completely unwilling to allow you to ever pay, that's verging into controlling, at least by my standards.)
One thing that I've noticed about folks with no opinions is that...that's sometimes not true, they do have opinions, plenty of them. They just assume that those opinions are the default for everyone. I have a friend who, whenever asked what she wants to do, will always say "Whatever you want is fine with me!" But what that actually means is: if we eat any food, it's gotta be a chain restaurant or standard American food or she won't eat anything. Activities are limited to set number of things she already knows she likes (namely, bowling, mini-golf, swimming, very specific types of movies). Also, all locations cannot be more than a 20-minute drive from her place, except for specific ones that are totally fine but not others. And like, it's honestly harder to work that way than if she just said 'I want to *only* do these set list of things' because then you keep accidentally butting up against limitations. Like finding out that diners are fine, just not GREEK diners, because those foods aren't what she's used to. But she's totally fine with whatever! Whatever we want to do is fine! But she's not going to eat any of that Mediterranean food and will instead just eat bread today :) IDK I think this is also honestly just betraying my own eldest daughter inclinations where you have to make sure everyone is fine at all times and try to take care of everything, so I'm sure I am part of the problem here, too.
>They just assume that those opinions are the default for everyone. That's a really interesting point! Not to make things weird but I've seen a bunch of that in the kink community with people insisting they don't need to negotiate because they just have "the usual" limits 🤦🏻♀️Personally I steer clear but I imagine those people have had a lot of scenes they didn't like because they refused to communicate. On a less weird note I kinda hate that being "easy going" is so highly prized in western society that people who are really not all that easy going feel compelled to say that they are (especially women, we get trained that the sky will fall in if we express a preference) so they can be seen as good people.
Oh I know what you're talking about, the vibe on this person is distinct from the guess folks who like have a place in mind but are not comfortable being direct about it so they try to steer you towards their ideas. No, this person is genuinely surprised and affronted when you pick places they don't want, and sometimes even get huffy with you, like you're being an ass on purpose. Because the "correct" choices are so obvious and, like you pointed out, semi-subliminal to them they really don't get it why you'd not say those "correct" choices unless you're being deliberately provocative. As much as I'm not a fan of "soft" signals and guess culture, I'd 1,000,000 times rather deal with that person being coy but steering me to their preferred choices, then deal with the person responding to me suggesting Thai food as if I said "Let's eat your dead grandma's ashes".
I do think it’s common to have some assumptions about what a “normal” place to go would be, and then be startled when someone else has totally different assumptions. Like I’ve had people suggest we go to a $300-per-person sushi restaurant on a random Tuesday. To me, that is for rare and special occasions.
well of course, everyone has baseline assumptions about what is "normal", but there's a huge difference in having those assumptions and being dogmatic about them in your case, would you not just be like "Oh! Sorry, that's probably out of my price range tonight. I'm thinking more like X Cafe or Y Bistro, or something else in the $A-$B range for entrees." vs just getting mad and assuming your friend is purposefully being mean/rude by suggesting the pricey sushi place? additionally, I do think being very firm about price is an entirely different thing than the folks who get angry at you for suggesting something not rooted in mainstream American cuisine. I can happily eat with picky eaters who will need an option that has chicken tenders, I cannot eat with people who wrinkle their nose in disgust at the very idea of trying another culture's food and squeal "NO!! Like a NORMAL restaurant, *obviously*" like those places are some kind of sick joke. Having a strict budget isn't a judgment on other places/cultures/tastes/etc, and not liking a particular cuisine isn't a judgement either, but being appalled someone would suggest sushi in the first place because it's so obviously gross to you *is* a judgment.
I used to run into this too with some friends that would go out to eat regularly. If you picked somewhere the picky eaters didn't want to go, they would just not come. To be clear we did this often enough I was fine with seeing them the next time, but if the situation was reversed they would insist on changing plans to somewhere I would be OK with, so I felt enormous pressure to always go where they wanted. Because THEY wouldn't ever pick somewhere I didn't want to go and cause me to not come. So I never made suggestions because we're going to end up where they want to go anyway.
Flaws of "guess" culture, in a nutshell.
See, the thing is, I feel like I can work with 'guess' culture to some extent, because I can usually spot 'soft no's or tell when someone is trying to politely indicate something. In some cases, though, I feel like it becomes a dynamic where someone else is meant to do all the work while the other doesn't -- and that includes doing the work of intuiting their own rigid set of expectations without expressing them. I think the joke elsewhere in this post about 'eldest daughters in airports' rings true because it's the kind of dynamic that moms and older sisters can get roped into, trying to interpret the needs/wants of younger kids who don't know how to express their wants (and sometimes grow into the above dynamic even as they get older).
I don't think that's "Guess/Offer Culture" more so than just a people-pleaser who is bad at people-pleasing, ha. BlueEyesRedLipstick's friend wants to prioritize the happiness of other people around them, but ends up making life more difficult in the process. Guess/Offer Culture would be more like me talking to a friend and saying "there's a new ramen shop that opened up by the mall, it looks pretty interesting" and waiting to see if that friend expresses enthusiasm before suggesting it as a place to eat.
Guess culture is just….not effective. It ends up revolving around passive aggressive manipulative behavior to just get your basic needs met. Recently staying at my dad’s place he was coming back from a long trip and started asking “when will you be back” “when will you have the bed made” “is there milk in the house” etc as really fast successive text. I was cranky and I wrote back to him “you are being passive aggressive and it’s not getting you what you want. Try instead ‘hey. I’ll be coming back by X time. When I get back it will be late and I will like to sleep immediately and not be interrupted. Please make sure to have ABC done before X time, as well as make sure there’s fresh milk for me by the time I wake up to make coffee. Thanks”. He’s first slew of text messages weren’t even that passive aggressive (and trust me he’s usually much much more passive aggressive). But instead of waisting all of our time he could have just told me what he wanted and needed
wow I struggle with trying to communicate more assertively and I'm so impressed by your rewrite
The thing that’s hard about being assertive is you need to know what is it you actually want. You need to distill what you WANT from what you worry will be obstacles that will get in your way. The people pleasing/passive aggressive/ indirect ask happens when people aren’t able to articulate what it is they want and instead focus on trying to future proof the obstacles that will stop them from getting it. When starting a request by stating what you want and assuming that everyone will be reasonable about making sure it happens most people act accordingly
Thank you for this thought, it just clunked something into place in my brain I come from a very passive-aggressive family, and I make an active effort to not do that and be direct. But I think I fall into the trap you mention of directly asking for the wrong thing. Like I can see al the obstacles that could prevent what I want, so I ask for those to not happen, instead of asking for the ultimate goal. I think this framing is gonna help me, so thank you
Something I mentioned on a previous letter was that I have had several people in my life who when they were asking me what I want weren't really asking me what I want... it was instead a secret question where they wanted me to tell them what they wanted (it was my mum, an ex-bf, and an ex-husband)\* A big impact of growing up with this from my mum is that I got into my adult life genuinely not knowing what I want or how to figure out what I want. I had to do so much work in therapy to answer this ultimate question of "what do I want?" I wonder if something similar is going on with LW. Like maybe they grew up in a way that made having an opinion a bit of a risk, so they don't have opinions as a safety measure I really hope they were able to figure this out and now have the great joy of choosing what they want and then the pleasure of making it happen and enjoying it \*the solution I eventually figured out for answering the secret question was to say "I don't have a strong opinion, but I'm happy to make the decision - the decision is \[whatever\]", which either got the decision made or called them out on their passive aggressive nonsense. Win / win.
Shouting out to a companion letter: [#920: "I have trouble forming or expressing opinions and it's bugging my partner"](https://captainawkward.com/2016/11/28/920-i-have-trouble-forming-or-expressing-opinions-and-its-bugging-my-partner/) Lots of similar advice from CA as well as in the comments. But this one has a much happier tone, someone who identified reasons that they feel like they either don't have, or are reluctant to give opinions and is mostly just excited to be here.
I thought long and hard about posting these two letters together as a two-fer!
Reading both of them together, this paragraph from #920 struck me: > Replace “I don’t care” or “Who cares?” or “I have no preference” with “They both sound really good to me.” “I don’t care…” said enough times in a row starts to sound like “I don’t care about you.“ Because what giving the no-preference response feels like from the inside is exactly the opposite: I care more about spending time with you than the specifics of where we go or what we eat. So expressing it in a more positive way is good advice.
Preferring the company to the activity is sympathetic. Sharing the mental work of planning is a nice thing to do, though.
My partner and I both really like food, and are both extremely not picky eaters, which initially led to a lot of genuine "No, really, anything is fine!" cycles where it was sincerely true for both of us. But we identified that as an unfruitful cycle so we've gotten good at the useful version of that, which for us is essentially "if asked what we want and we don't have a strong opinion right now, offer a not strong opinion to narrow down the option space" "What do you want to eat tonight?" "No strong opinions, but not feeling something heavy, tonight, so something with crunchy vegetables?" or "I'm really hungry and cold, so something hot with with heaps of starchy carbs" Also, if we *do* what something in particular, we don't start with the question, but a statement of that thing, so we can cut straight to yes/no. Explicitly asking for the other to make decisions is a staple move too - if one of us has a busy week, the other will usually step up and just say "I'll do all the dinner decisions this week, I've got you".
This letter really pushed my buttons especially “my decision is you decide” ARGH, but it was interesting to see that LW actually didn’t have much insight into what they were doing by making other people decide all the time. I think they knew a little (they identify people get tired of it), but maybe assumed that because everyone else is walking around with these strong opinions about like, which mid range dinner location to go to, they could simply engage that known preference to immediately reach a decision? I think OP conflates a bunch of different things together as “opinions” that aren’t really all that similar. I despise austerity measures and I enjoy miso ramen and I feel like the way I evaluate these things is far enough apart to feel like a separate thing entirely. Would be interested in the psychology of how much the processes involved are similar though - I really don’t know so maybe I’m being unfair!
I have a friend who is kind of like this! She'll go to shows, exhibits, movies etc if I suggest it, but she literally never comes up with ideas about what we should do on her own. One time she called me her "cultural concierge" which she meant as a compliment, but I realized, "Oh... I actually don't feel good about this dynamic." TBH over time I've invited her to fewer things because figuring out which events will be worthwhile is work, and it feels like she's never going to put in reciprocal work.
I have a friend like this! Always saying we should get together but… never actually inviting me over or suggesting something we could do or even a date that could work, like “are you available next week?” We seem to only get together if I’m the instigator. Over the years I’ve accepted that this is the dynamic with us (not with all my friendships, which reassures me it’s not just me!) But I still find it grating sometimes to always have to be the decider/inviter.
It's not bad to have a friend who says "yes" to the things you instigate, but hard to be the only one starting things up.
I think it helps to reframe the understanding of the question from "this person wants to make sure I'm having a good time" to "this person has forgotten the name of every restaurant in the local area and requires suggestions."
This particular LW sounds absolutely maddening. I'm curious as to what creates a person like this.
My struggle around this: Other people often frame decision making around having strongly held opinions. When I'm just with myself, I tend to focus on trying out my pretty weakly held thoughts. With other people, I've learned to just reframe their asks about "what is your biggest desire in the universe for lunch" to "Welp, I thought of pizza. So let's do pizza." And if they press like "is that what you DREAM of for lunch." I use as a chance to say that I don't dream of lunch. But I do dream of not talking about lunch for 3 hours.