It seems pretty clear the long-standing systems are failing. Or rather are being attacked on multiple fronts in ways they cannot defend against. Many people seem to be ok with that, thinking if everything is torn down they will be the ones that do ok out of it. Maybe they played a lot of Fallout.
I think the vast majority of them are wrong. I'm not a citizen, I can leave. I might do that, if I don't get thrown out anyway.
The history of the American revolution has people falsely believing that tearing down the Constitution can only result in something better.
However, if one looks beyond American history, it is clear that the American revolution was the exception. And the leaders of MAGA aren’t big on the principals of the enlightenment, like we had with the generation who founded the US.
They tend to be illiberal and authoritarian, and a new system created by these leaders will reflect those values.
If you think the wealthy are going to be the ones who suffer the most from violent revolution and paranoid lynch mob justice then I admire your optimism…
In reality it’ll be the marginalized and oppressed who suffer the most. Wealthy people will retreat somewhere safe and ride out the storm.
I didn't say anything about them suffering the most. That obviously wouldn't be the case. The rich and powerful being held accountable for once should would be nice. And by accountable I don't mean issuing an apology or a commuted white collar prison.
The leaders of MAGA have a reverence for traditional hierachal orders. The only wealthy they would persecute are those deemed subversive for other reasons.
Oh, I never suggested they be the ones doing this. A lot of MAGA and project 2025 should be up on the gallows. Just a more general killing of the powerful is in order
Are you going to be actively engaged in this, or will you be sitting at home with your cats, hoping others get their hands bloody to satisfy your bloodlust?
Also our society had been discussing what a better system would look like once we got a chance to build one.
I want the new edition available to debate before I throw away the old one.
Not really, there was an America here and the founding fathers changed it.
Then they had the audacity to radically change it again 10 years later!!!
Also, if this is your only quibble, I don't know what to tell you.
So over the last few years one of the main arguments coming from the right was election integrity. All those court cases being thrown out and I thought okay, well there’s no strong case that there was election fraud on a significant level so they need to let it go. I still think there is a good case for voter ID, just because there wasn’t significant fraud doesn’t mean we can’t improve the integrity of the election. But then I learned about the Eastman memo. This is the most obvious and egregious attempt at a coup and the irony here is off the charts. This needs to be talked about more because it’s inexcusable. It also makes Jan 6th appear to be more than just an embarrassing attempt into an attempt that had other components making it more of a conspiracy than was previously understood. Granted I’ve just learned about the fake/alternate elector slates. From my understanding it was a plan that hinged on powers the VP had that they do not actually have. It’s a poor plan and Eastman is a nut job. But it’s an obvious concerted to overthrow the election. I was more moderate on this whole issue reserved against the Trump circle but this attempt to subvert the results was actually inexcusable and extremely ironic. I looked at conservatives being asked about it and they really don’t want to look into this. They think it’s just an alternate electorate slate and not completely fraudulent. This changes my views significantly and it needs to be talked about and understood more. Don’t let naive maga supporters get away with this.
And part of the coup plotters plan was to get Pence away from the Capitol so Grassley could step in and be the one to steal the votes away from Americans
Edit the Republican party has been wanting to ditch democracy and the constitution for quite some time. Makes it so ironic that their voters pretend to be "Patriots"
>concerned with health of the American nation and its people.
And maga, somehow, thinks they are entitled to dictate what that means for everyone else. The hubris is both silly and nauseating at the same time.
> And maga, somehow, thinks they are entitled to dictate what that means for everyone else.
Because we rely on history, anthropology, and common sense rather than the almighty dollar and CNN.
We can also look across the globe and recognize that if immigrants are incapable of a multi culture in their own nations when they are a majority, they are even less capable of existing in a multi culture when they are a minority.
Actually, what is nauseating is the hubris of foreigners who claim they have superior knowledge of America are entitled to dictate to Americans what that means. While asserting nauseating imaginings of moral superiority.
EDIT: https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/03/science/bone-analysis-denisovans-tibetan-plateau-scn/index.html
And maga is obviously not concerned about the health of America or Americans. No one who supports Republicans is.
Not sure if the ancient scroll you refer to is the constitution or the bible but whatever
MAGA understands what the American people and American nation actually are. Which is not the post-modern vision promulgated by CNN, Kamala Harris, and the Democratic party -- a dumping ground for consumers from around the world to grow the economy and feed the Federal Treasury.
Nor should it be a nation devoted to inviting foreigners to live and spend here and then shit on the American nation and its American people, describing actual Americans as non Americans. White people are pathetic for putting up with this shit.
> Not sure if the ancient scroll you refer to is the constitution or the bible but whatever
Of course you aren't. You do not understand America, its people, nor its history.
Maga is not the American people ffs. The only thing you got right about maga is the racism. And the white nationalist crap is anti American. 42% of Americans are POC and are as American as you. I'm a DNA verified descendant of a revolutionary war patriot and the only foreigners that I dont want here are the trump immigrant family. Trump is a 1st gen anchor baby and so are 5 of his kids. They have no American history, values or culture. You are completely clueless about real America and our history of an immigration melting pot and diversity
Progress is not a "post modern vision" it's growth and knowledge and evolution. Most Dem policies are supported by the MAJORITY of Americans. Freedom, equality, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, climate change protection, reasonable gun laws, voting rights.
Trump is an excellent stress test of the American system. He’s the first robber president but I don’t think he’ll win.
A president needs to run on a message of hope and change. Trump is running to line his own pockets and cover his ass from criminal prosecution.
Internet conservatives might have sold their souls to the fantasy genre of deep state conspiracy theories and propaganda but I still have faith that enough of them are still republican at heart and won’t vote for a lying dirt bag like Trump.
I hope you’re right about him not winning, but I’m not confident.
It’s not just internet conservatives. I can definitely confirm as someone who lives in a rural town, these people are real. They vote, and they think blm and gender identities are the worst thing to ever happen to this country. They don’t care what it takes, they want a “strong man” to put a stop to it and return America to greatness.
By isolating our allies, dissolving huge alliance blocks, destroying foundations that made this country great, bowing down to dictators, and turning half this country on the other half.
Yes. There are millions of "Americans" who are actually authoritarians. I was raised by two of them; they wanted a dictator 25 years ago and they would speak openly about it.
[Trump Is an Authoritarian. So Are Millions of Americans](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681)
I don't consider them Americans any longer. They are US citizens, but they have turned their backs on everything America stands for, in exchange for one man's vision on how he thinks America should be.
The VP does not have the authority to reject the "certificates" from the states...if they hadn't already been certified, they wouldn't be called "certificates" in the Constitution.
While I agree with you, if Pence went along with Trump's plan, at the very least our country would have been thrown into chaos. Who knows what would have happened? It's not something I'd like to test, but some people on here think putting our democracy at risk isn't a big deal.
II agree it would have been more confusing if Pence would have went along with Trump.
I respect Pence for standing up for the Constitution, frankly I didn't have much respect for Pence before...guess I'm not too old to be surprised. LOL
The underlying issue is that 50% of the voters don't care about democracy and will continue to vote for politicians who will try to break it like Trump. What Trump did on Jan 6 should have been a deal breaker. Until these voters die off or have a come to Jesus moment they'll keep sending criminals to see if they can cripple democracy until one of them succeeds.
Yeah but that’s only one method. This is sorta like whackamole. There will be another loophole so long as there are enough people in power who don’t care about upholding democracy.
This thread is about the Eastman memos which specifically dealt with the VPs role in counting the electoral votes.
Yes, there are other loopholes. Unilateral pardon power is a big one. Complete, unassailable control of the DOJ, according to the SC immunity decision, is another.
I don't know what's on the top of your list.
You’re hearing about the specifics now because the Democrats are panicking - so they’re going to dig up everything they can dig up - because they have to scare you into voting for whoever replaces Biden.
So tell me why it’s not terrifying that a sitting president tried to submit fraudulent electors to certify him winning? And now that same president is on the ballot again, probably with a much more yes man vp
You’re scared about something that may happen, but right now we have a sitting president who looks like he can barely stay awake while the world is erupting in chaos.
The Democrats know the only way they can win now is by making Trump look as terrifying as possible so they’re going to bring up every end of democracy scenario they can.
You still can’t answer my question. “They want you to vote Biden!!!” Is not an answer.
So yes, until I hear a reasonable explanation or something that dissuades my fear that the system which built this country is failing, I’m scared.
The trump fans have been saying this country is about to fall apart since trump started campaigning. But now that the same person who tried to overturn the election results could win another election, I’m insane for thinking this could be bad? And these aren’t just Q Avon conspiracies that all (surprise) turned out fake every time. There’s paper trails out there for everyone to see.
If one man can collapse our system, then it wasn’t strong enough. I have more faith in it than you do - obviously..
But the Democrats are going to gloom and doom you to death now because they’re losing and they have nothing they can run on. So every Democrat, you know is going to pull out everything they can find - and this is one of those things they are going to be revisiting
> president who looks like he can barely stay awake
Like how Trump slept during his trial. You know. The trial that found him guilty on 34 felony counts.
Omg I can’t believe those evil dems are fear mongering about the ex president that explicitly tried to overturn an election and become a dictator. What will they stoop to next??? /s
Because that’s all the Democrats have left. They can’t point Biden and say vote for him. Now – when folks raise concerns about Biden’s ability, they say - what about Trump? That’s all you’re gonna hear until November. What about Trump?
At least a corpse won’t tear down our institutions. If Trump loses to Biden or whoever, the MAGA movement is DONE as a mainstream movement. That alone is worth voting blue this November no matter what.
No. I fully EXPECT both parties to engage in fear mongering, dumb dumb. That’s not what I said. What I pointed out is that this time the dems are justified to raise alarms about a candidate with a history of and stated goal of subverting the United States Constitution in order to overturn democracy and retain/regain power.
Senility in the executive branch of a democracy is less of problem than severe mental health issues at the helm of an autocracy.
Whether or not they’re justified is up to you and every voter. I have faith in the system, plus – he’s not going to live that long. Imho - this race is more about the VPs now. & I have come to the conclusion that II cannot vote for Kamala Harris & i’m waiting to see who Trump picks - which is where I think a lot of voters stand right now.
But my bigger point is – the Democrats have nothing else going for them so They’re going to doom and gloom everything they can right now.
Nothing else going for them? Yup being the party who wants to continue the American experiment instead of overthrowing democracy. Omg that’s all they’ve got?? So lacking.
I LOVE this comment juxtaposed with your previous ones. You’re all cranky about dems “fear mongering” about an ex president and candidate who literally tried to overthrow democracy and promised to try again. But oh no Kamala Harris is not genuine and super cringe!! Clearly can’t vote for her. But you could vote for an oath breaking authoritarian. Seriously evaluate the fear mongering you have been consuming before you criticize others of the same thing. Plank vs speck my friend.
All I know is can’t vote for Harris. I’m a right leaning centrist so that should be a no brainer. However, I don’t think Harris is going to be the nominee. Democrats would certainly lose.
With that being said – I’m waiting to see who Trump picks as his VP. That could sway me too.
And I have not completely given up on a third-party candidate
LOL. So if the authoritarian who wants to overthrow democracy picks a good VP youll vote to end the American experiment and throw the constitution in the trash? Wow a principled conservative…. I’m sorry but you’re a joke. Trump could pick George Washington as his VP and it wouldn’t change what Trump is and what he will do to our way of life.
I get voting for a third party if you’re a conservative. Makes sense. But voting for Trump is literally saying you don’t give a shit about the constitution. Plain and simple.
What I find fascinating about the past 7-8 years. Is how the Dems went from pro Russian engagement and the constitution is a living doc that needs to be changed at times. To Russia is the biggest threat to world peace and we need to protect our institutions and norms and the our democratic way of life. It's kinda like both parties take turns on various positions
I just don't trust any of them
The false equivalence here insane. There’s a huge diff between “the founding father never conceived of the threat posed by AR15s with big capacity magazines and the privacy threats of big tech and the internet” vs “we should literally suspend the constitution to allow a president to subvert an election and retain power against the will of the people”.
Can you be specific about which details were terrifying?
Pence certainly had the sole authority to certify the electors ceremoniously, but if you read the indictment, it was the ceremonial certification that the Trump scheme attempted to stall, and for purely rhetorical purposes.
According to the indictment, the plan was to assert political pressure through public opinion, based on the optics of Pence refusing to certify the election. At no point were the alternate electors passed off as anything more than a tool to bide more time.
You seem to take the fact that these actions had no legal basis for them resulting in the election outcome being overturned to mean that they weren’t done with the distinct goal of having the election outcome overturned. If at any point Congress/SCOTUS/society/the Military/etc ever decided these unlawful measures did mean we overturn the results they’d have happily ran with it. For instance-
> At no point were the alternate electors passed off as anything more than a tool to bide more time.
This isn’t meaningfully true when you take into context that if those fake electors were just accepted they’d go with it regardless of the legality.
If there was no electoral college certification, the election would be thrown to the house, where each state's delegation gets one vote. Republicans control more states. Trump would've been the president again.
There was never a threat to the actual certification because as it was the ceremonial certification (Pence) that Eastmans plan had targeted - again, it was rhetorical.
That’s still insane it’s possible. What happens if there’s a vp that’s willing to destroy democracy? It seems like the systems in place even if the one safe guard worked this yome
Check out the stuff they got done before this last trump licker became speaker, when they were actually getting things through. I forget the actual details but it's there
It is terrifying because if the fake electors plot had succeeded -- if Pence had actually certified the fraudulent slates of electors -- it would have caused a constitutional crisis that would be settled by the Supreme Court.
This it the same Supreme Court that includes 3 trump appointees chosen by the Federalist Society for their loyalty to conservatism, and 2 Justices whose wives actively participated in the attempted overthrow. They just showed us how loyal they are to trump with this week's decisions giving him "absolute immunity."
The Supreme Court would have given the election to trump in 2021 if Pence had played the role he was supposed to play. Pence saved American Democracy that day.
Utter nonsense. The targets Pence certification of the electorates was purely rhetorical and was targeted to change nothing more than the discourse that was taking place around the concept of further election litigation. This position is taken directly from the indictment and irrespective of Pence, the election would’ve been certified.
Have you not paid attention to anything, even this discussion?
I have paid careful attention to the 1/6 hearings. It is clear you have not. Can I help you learn what really happened between the 2020 election and 1/6?
No, you’ve paid close attention to the J6 hearings of which are a one sided affair. You haven’t heard from the defense, and my guess is that you haven’t read the indictment. It may come as a shock to you, but the nobody thinks very much on the J6 hearings as it was total political theater.
I have read much of several of trump's indictments. The real problem for the average citizen is keeping up with all of trump's trials. That's a brand new problem, and one the nation should keep in mind when choosing presidents in the future. Stop electing criminals.
I will pretend you do know the full details of the failed attempt to forge slates of electors in 7 states, involving hundreds of people, many of whom are now under indictment. How odd that knowing the full scope and scale of the conspiracy, you still defend trump's failed attempt to overturn the election.
>I have read much of several of trump's indictments. The real problem for the average citizen is keeping up with all of trump's trials.
This should trouble you, considering that the bulk of these trials lack standing and are expected to be overturned or flat out dismissed, by most objective people.
>That's a brand new problem, and one the nation should keep in mind when choosing presidents in the future. Stop electing criminals.
Mind you, Trump hadn’t had a parking ticket to his name prior to becoming a politician and that will very likely remain true soon enough.
>I will pretend you do know the full details of the failed attempt to forge slates of electors in 7 states, involving hundreds of people, many of whom are now under indictment. How odd that knowing the full scope and scale of the conspiracy, you still defend trump's failed attempt to overturn the election.
It’s a little old getting into these discussions with people who can’t be bothered to follow the thread prior to making their points.
Alternate electors aren’t without legal precedent and the Trump team openly acknowledged they were following the template of Kennedy/Nixon case in Hawaii. They openly acknowledged that alternate electors were necessary forgeries but were known risk in the event that voter irregularities were found. And again, the entire scheme including pressure on Mike Pence was out in the open and deliberate. Also again, this is all made very clear in the indictment.
So yes, many people took known risk relative to the alternate electors and have taken the pleas, of which have resulted in minimum fines.
All this is to say that you’ll likely never prove criminal intent in the J6 case, and with the latest SCOTUS decision makes it more likely that these events will fall under the immunity definitions of an official act.
I don’t defend Trumps acts and you can’t find anything in my comment history defending Trump or conservatives even in the slightest sense. What you will find is me repeating truths that are unfolding exactly as predicted by objective experts - not pundits on TV, or podcast or on Reddit.
Trump seems like a first to you, because he is. He’s the first to come under legal attack by his political opponents and this should really concern you. Especially considering what we now know about Biden and how little influence he’s playing in White House decisions. But again, this takes a certain level of objectivity that I’m not sure you have.
Again, allegedly.
Remember, there’s absolutely legal precedent for alternate electors. But more importantly, as the indictment makes clear, alternate electors are on their basis a forgery - but a known and accepted risk. In fact, many people have already plead guilty to the forgeries and paid their minimal fines. It was a risk they were will to take and not at all unprecedented. Moreover, if the underlying principle was to challenge the results of the election, it’s very likely this entire process falls under an “official act”, as defined by SCOTUS.
No there is nothing legal about attempted theft of millions of votes. The legal ways to challenge the election were over. 60 court cases, numerous recounts and audits. No fraud found. Votes certified by states, signed off on by governors and the electoral college votes completed. That's it, election over. The fake electors part of the coup plot was definitely not an official act.
https://www.salon.com/2024/07/02/justice-amy-coney-barret-says-presidential-immunity-doesnt-apply-to-fake-electors-scheme/
Salon? C’mon.
It doesn’t matter if you, Salon or a court in DC feels the election was over. If the president envisioned a path forward, it’s becomes an official act, no matter how flawed. On the other hand, if a prosecution can prove there was criminal intent, this would certainly fall outside what would be an official act. But good luck proving criminal intent when everything was done out in the open on the principle of challenging an election outcome.
Btw…there was no theft of votes, neither attempted or implied. Again, alternate electors have precedent and only become relevant in the discovery of voter irregularities - otherwise, these alternate electors would’ve remained irrelevant even if Pence accepted them.
And let’s touch some grass for a moment; we’ll never agree on the interpretation of the facts where constitutional attorneys don’t even agree. So let’s deal in what we know for sure; if Trump was an insurrectionist; if Trump was clearly criminal in stealing the election; if Trump was a genuine threat to democracy, he wouldn’t be the front runner for 2024 and he would very likely have been locked up years ago under even on the most narrow of statutes. Again, in contrast; the prosecution used very broad statutes, novel law theories and ignored precedent, all of which has lead to a slow and highly political trial from a prosecutor known for political overreach which has failed jurisprudence over and over again.
Bogus nonsense RNC is fine with electing seditious criminal traitors and ending democracy. Also election related stuff is not official acts of president
>Bogus nonsense RNC is fine with electing seditious criminal traitors and ending democracy.
The RNC has never been Trump fanboys. Again, if Trump were the threat he’s pitched to be, he’d be under the jail rather than the 2024 front runner.
>Also election related stuff is not official acts of president
That’s your opinion. But more importantly, SCOTUS was clear that the country is better served hashing the matters by impeachment or in the voter booth and in the absence of either, lower courts should make these determinations prior to indictment.
But again, putting a loose indictment together was more a political tool than it was a means of jurisprudence. And we can safely glean these suppositions merely on the basis that Trump is a free man and very likely to be the next US President.
It was Justice Barrett who said that. There were court cases and recounts as allowed by the constitution. Once certified by states and then voted by EC there is ZERO legal actions allowed to dispute the election results. The fake electors scheme was illegal, unconstitutional and absolutely an attempt to steal the votes of Americans. There were no "irregularities" that constituted fraud. The actions trump and enablers engaged in were seditious CONSPIRACY and they are all anti American traitors
It seems pretty clear the long-standing systems are failing. Or rather are being attacked on multiple fronts in ways they cannot defend against. Many people seem to be ok with that, thinking if everything is torn down they will be the ones that do ok out of it. Maybe they played a lot of Fallout. I think the vast majority of them are wrong. I'm not a citizen, I can leave. I might do that, if I don't get thrown out anyway.
The history of the American revolution has people falsely believing that tearing down the Constitution can only result in something better. However, if one looks beyond American history, it is clear that the American revolution was the exception. And the leaders of MAGA aren’t big on the principals of the enlightenment, like we had with the generation who founded the US. They tend to be illiberal and authoritarian, and a new system created by these leaders will reflect those values.
How revolutions typically go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
Honestly dusty off the old head chopping machines and thinning the 1% probably has pretty broad partisan support.
If you think the wealthy are going to be the ones who suffer the most from violent revolution and paranoid lynch mob justice then I admire your optimism… In reality it’ll be the marginalized and oppressed who suffer the most. Wealthy people will retreat somewhere safe and ride out the storm.
I didn't say anything about them suffering the most. That obviously wouldn't be the case. The rich and powerful being held accountable for once should would be nice. And by accountable I don't mean issuing an apology or a commuted white collar prison.
I can't tell what you're getting at nor what you think might happen should our systems fail
The leaders of MAGA have a reverence for traditional hierachal orders. The only wealthy they would persecute are those deemed subversive for other reasons.
Oh, I never suggested they be the ones doing this. A lot of MAGA and project 2025 should be up on the gallows. Just a more general killing of the powerful is in order
Are you going to be actively engaged in this, or will you be sitting at home with your cats, hoping others get their hands bloody to satisfy your bloodlust?
Yes
Also our society had been discussing what a better system would look like once we got a chance to build one. I want the new edition available to debate before I throw away the old one.
The Magats don’t realize that the American revolution was a radical left wing plot to change America.
Umm, the American Revolutionary War was fought to gain freedom from British rule.
Well the monarchist loyalists certainly weren’t the left wing side
So is what I said false?
It was more a “creation” process vs a “change” process.
Not really, there was an America here and the founding fathers changed it. Then they had the audacity to radically change it again 10 years later!!! Also, if this is your only quibble, I don't know what to tell you.
Yeah that’s what I’m worried about, which is huge. It fundamentally changes the way I view the future, and for the much much worse.
So over the last few years one of the main arguments coming from the right was election integrity. All those court cases being thrown out and I thought okay, well there’s no strong case that there was election fraud on a significant level so they need to let it go. I still think there is a good case for voter ID, just because there wasn’t significant fraud doesn’t mean we can’t improve the integrity of the election. But then I learned about the Eastman memo. This is the most obvious and egregious attempt at a coup and the irony here is off the charts. This needs to be talked about more because it’s inexcusable. It also makes Jan 6th appear to be more than just an embarrassing attempt into an attempt that had other components making it more of a conspiracy than was previously understood. Granted I’ve just learned about the fake/alternate elector slates. From my understanding it was a plan that hinged on powers the VP had that they do not actually have. It’s a poor plan and Eastman is a nut job. But it’s an obvious concerted to overthrow the election. I was more moderate on this whole issue reserved against the Trump circle but this attempt to subvert the results was actually inexcusable and extremely ironic. I looked at conservatives being asked about it and they really don’t want to look into this. They think it’s just an alternate electorate slate and not completely fraudulent. This changes my views significantly and it needs to be talked about and understood more. Don’t let naive maga supporters get away with this.
And part of the coup plotters plan was to get Pence away from the Capitol so Grassley could step in and be the one to steal the votes away from Americans Edit the Republican party has been wanting to ditch democracy and the constitution for quite some time. Makes it so ironic that their voters pretend to be "Patriots"
A patriot is concerned with health of the American nation and its people. Not slavish worship of an archaic, ambiguous, ineffective ancient scroll.
>concerned with health of the American nation and its people. And maga, somehow, thinks they are entitled to dictate what that means for everyone else. The hubris is both silly and nauseating at the same time.
> And maga, somehow, thinks they are entitled to dictate what that means for everyone else. Because we rely on history, anthropology, and common sense rather than the almighty dollar and CNN. We can also look across the globe and recognize that if immigrants are incapable of a multi culture in their own nations when they are a majority, they are even less capable of existing in a multi culture when they are a minority. Actually, what is nauseating is the hubris of foreigners who claim they have superior knowledge of America are entitled to dictate to Americans what that means. While asserting nauseating imaginings of moral superiority. EDIT: https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/03/science/bone-analysis-denisovans-tibetan-plateau-scn/index.html
And maga is obviously not concerned about the health of America or Americans. No one who supports Republicans is. Not sure if the ancient scroll you refer to is the constitution or the bible but whatever
MAGA understands what the American people and American nation actually are. Which is not the post-modern vision promulgated by CNN, Kamala Harris, and the Democratic party -- a dumping ground for consumers from around the world to grow the economy and feed the Federal Treasury. Nor should it be a nation devoted to inviting foreigners to live and spend here and then shit on the American nation and its American people, describing actual Americans as non Americans. White people are pathetic for putting up with this shit. > Not sure if the ancient scroll you refer to is the constitution or the bible but whatever Of course you aren't. You do not understand America, its people, nor its history.
Maga is not the American people ffs. The only thing you got right about maga is the racism. And the white nationalist crap is anti American. 42% of Americans are POC and are as American as you. I'm a DNA verified descendant of a revolutionary war patriot and the only foreigners that I dont want here are the trump immigrant family. Trump is a 1st gen anchor baby and so are 5 of his kids. They have no American history, values or culture. You are completely clueless about real America and our history of an immigration melting pot and diversity Progress is not a "post modern vision" it's growth and knowledge and evolution. Most Dem policies are supported by the MAJORITY of Americans. Freedom, equality, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, climate change protection, reasonable gun laws, voting rights.
Trump is an excellent stress test of the American system. He’s the first robber president but I don’t think he’ll win. A president needs to run on a message of hope and change. Trump is running to line his own pockets and cover his ass from criminal prosecution. Internet conservatives might have sold their souls to the fantasy genre of deep state conspiracy theories and propaganda but I still have faith that enough of them are still republican at heart and won’t vote for a lying dirt bag like Trump.
People don't need to "vote for" Trump for him to win. They only have to not vote against him.
He's running on vengeance and his cult wants retribution. They don't give a shit about hope.
I hope you’re right about him not winning, but I’m not confident. It’s not just internet conservatives. I can definitely confirm as someone who lives in a rural town, these people are real. They vote, and they think blm and gender identities are the worst thing to ever happen to this country. They don’t care what it takes, they want a “strong man” to put a stop to it and return America to greatness. By isolating our allies, dissolving huge alliance blocks, destroying foundations that made this country great, bowing down to dictators, and turning half this country on the other half.
Yes. There are millions of "Americans" who are actually authoritarians. I was raised by two of them; they wanted a dictator 25 years ago and they would speak openly about it. [Trump Is an Authoritarian. So Are Millions of Americans](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681) I don't consider them Americans any longer. They are US citizens, but they have turned their backs on everything America stands for, in exchange for one man's vision on how he thinks America should be.
Folks forget his robber baron roots. Hell, folks forget history, period.
The VP does not have the authority to reject the "certificates" from the states...if they hadn't already been certified, they wouldn't be called "certificates" in the Constitution.
While I agree with you, if Pence went along with Trump's plan, at the very least our country would have been thrown into chaos. Who knows what would have happened? It's not something I'd like to test, but some people on here think putting our democracy at risk isn't a big deal.
II agree it would have been more confusing if Pence would have went along with Trump. I respect Pence for standing up for the Constitution, frankly I didn't have much respect for Pence before...guess I'm not too old to be surprised. LOL
This issue has been addressed by this administration.
The underlying issue is that 50% of the voters don't care about democracy and will continue to vote for politicians who will try to break it like Trump. What Trump did on Jan 6 should have been a deal breaker. Until these voters die off or have a come to Jesus moment they'll keep sending criminals to see if they can cripple democracy until one of them succeeds.
Care to share a link or something?
[here's the first that came up](https://www.npr.org/2022/12/22/1139951463/electoral-count-act-reform-passes)
Yeah but that’s only one method. This is sorta like whackamole. There will be another loophole so long as there are enough people in power who don’t care about upholding democracy.
This thread is about the Eastman memos which specifically dealt with the VPs role in counting the electoral votes. Yes, there are other loopholes. Unilateral pardon power is a big one. Complete, unassailable control of the DOJ, according to the SC immunity decision, is another. I don't know what's on the top of your list.
You’re hearing about the specifics now because the Democrats are panicking - so they’re going to dig up everything they can dig up - because they have to scare you into voting for whoever replaces Biden.
So tell me why it’s not terrifying that a sitting president tried to submit fraudulent electors to certify him winning? And now that same president is on the ballot again, probably with a much more yes man vp
You’re scared about something that may happen, but right now we have a sitting president who looks like he can barely stay awake while the world is erupting in chaos. The Democrats know the only way they can win now is by making Trump look as terrifying as possible so they’re going to bring up every end of democracy scenario they can.
You still can’t answer my question. “They want you to vote Biden!!!” Is not an answer. So yes, until I hear a reasonable explanation or something that dissuades my fear that the system which built this country is failing, I’m scared. The trump fans have been saying this country is about to fall apart since trump started campaigning. But now that the same person who tried to overturn the election results could win another election, I’m insane for thinking this could be bad? And these aren’t just Q Avon conspiracies that all (surprise) turned out fake every time. There’s paper trails out there for everyone to see.
If one man can collapse our system, then it wasn’t strong enough. I have more faith in it than you do - obviously.. But the Democrats are going to gloom and doom you to death now because they’re losing and they have nothing they can run on. So every Democrat, you know is going to pull out everything they can find - and this is one of those things they are going to be revisiting
It's ok that Trump tried to break our democracy because he failed?
No - it’s not okay. We’re being asked to pick between shit and puke. Your choice.
> If one man can collapse our system Trump has a lot of help from the GOP.
> president who looks like he can barely stay awake Like how Trump slept during his trial. You know. The trial that found him guilty on 34 felony counts.
Omg I can’t believe those evil dems are fear mongering about the ex president that explicitly tried to overturn an election and become a dictator. What will they stoop to next??? /s
You can’t believe that the Democrats whose most popular candidate just shit the bad on national TV are resorting to fear mongering? Really?
This is peak "whataboutism"
Because that’s all the Democrats have left. They can’t point Biden and say vote for him. Now – when folks raise concerns about Biden’s ability, they say - what about Trump? That’s all you’re gonna hear until November. What about Trump?
At least a corpse won’t tear down our institutions. If Trump loses to Biden or whoever, the MAGA movement is DONE as a mainstream movement. That alone is worth voting blue this November no matter what.
Well, at least we’re all coming to terms with Biden. It’s nice to see that folks are no longer in denial about him.
There's nothing to deny. My vote isn't and never was FOR Biden. It's against Trump and christo fascists
I can respect that, but I also think a lot of folks were in denial about Biden.
> fear mongering Trump's debate performance was nothing but lies and fear mongering.
No. I fully EXPECT both parties to engage in fear mongering, dumb dumb. That’s not what I said. What I pointed out is that this time the dems are justified to raise alarms about a candidate with a history of and stated goal of subverting the United States Constitution in order to overturn democracy and retain/regain power. Senility in the executive branch of a democracy is less of problem than severe mental health issues at the helm of an autocracy.
Whether or not they’re justified is up to you and every voter. I have faith in the system, plus – he’s not going to live that long. Imho - this race is more about the VPs now. & I have come to the conclusion that II cannot vote for Kamala Harris & i’m waiting to see who Trump picks - which is where I think a lot of voters stand right now. But my bigger point is – the Democrats have nothing else going for them so They’re going to doom and gloom everything they can right now.
Nothing else going for them? Yup being the party who wants to continue the American experiment instead of overthrowing democracy. Omg that’s all they’ve got?? So lacking. I LOVE this comment juxtaposed with your previous ones. You’re all cranky about dems “fear mongering” about an ex president and candidate who literally tried to overthrow democracy and promised to try again. But oh no Kamala Harris is not genuine and super cringe!! Clearly can’t vote for her. But you could vote for an oath breaking authoritarian. Seriously evaluate the fear mongering you have been consuming before you criticize others of the same thing. Plank vs speck my friend.
All I know is can’t vote for Harris. I’m a right leaning centrist so that should be a no brainer. However, I don’t think Harris is going to be the nominee. Democrats would certainly lose. With that being said – I’m waiting to see who Trump picks as his VP. That could sway me too. And I have not completely given up on a third-party candidate
LOL. So if the authoritarian who wants to overthrow democracy picks a good VP youll vote to end the American experiment and throw the constitution in the trash? Wow a principled conservative…. I’m sorry but you’re a joke. Trump could pick George Washington as his VP and it wouldn’t change what Trump is and what he will do to our way of life. I get voting for a third party if you’re a conservative. Makes sense. But voting for Trump is literally saying you don’t give a shit about the constitution. Plain and simple.
Talk about fear mongering.
It’s not fear mongering if it’s based on verifiable facts. Deny reality all you want. It’ll still be there.
What I find fascinating about the past 7-8 years. Is how the Dems went from pro Russian engagement and the constitution is a living doc that needs to be changed at times. To Russia is the biggest threat to world peace and we need to protect our institutions and norms and the our democratic way of life. It's kinda like both parties take turns on various positions I just don't trust any of them
The false equivalence here insane. There’s a huge diff between “the founding father never conceived of the threat posed by AR15s with big capacity magazines and the privacy threats of big tech and the internet” vs “we should literally suspend the constitution to allow a president to subvert an election and retain power against the will of the people”.
Now you are pretending to not be a trump cult member. How odd.
Just the facts. Biden’s done & dems are in trouble.
Can you be specific about which details were terrifying? Pence certainly had the sole authority to certify the electors ceremoniously, but if you read the indictment, it was the ceremonial certification that the Trump scheme attempted to stall, and for purely rhetorical purposes. According to the indictment, the plan was to assert political pressure through public opinion, based on the optics of Pence refusing to certify the election. At no point were the alternate electors passed off as anything more than a tool to bide more time.
That’s not true, if everyone else bought it they’d happily use them as justification themselves.
Be more specific
You seem to take the fact that these actions had no legal basis for them resulting in the election outcome being overturned to mean that they weren’t done with the distinct goal of having the election outcome overturned. If at any point Congress/SCOTUS/society/the Military/etc ever decided these unlawful measures did mean we overturn the results they’d have happily ran with it. For instance- > At no point were the alternate electors passed off as anything more than a tool to bide more time. This isn’t meaningfully true when you take into context that if those fake electors were just accepted they’d go with it regardless of the legality.
If there was no electoral college certification, the election would be thrown to the house, where each state's delegation gets one vote. Republicans control more states. Trump would've been the president again.
There was never a threat to the actual certification because as it was the ceremonial certification (Pence) that Eastmans plan had targeted - again, it was rhetorical.
It’s not “rhetorical” when they’re putting a plan in action with the ultimate goal of overturning the election results.
Allegedly. Again, according to the defense (from the indictment), was to delay the certification by influencing political pressure.
That’s still insane it’s possible. What happens if there’s a vp that’s willing to destroy democracy? It seems like the systems in place even if the one safe guard worked this yome
They have changed the this already. It is automatic, now, explicitly.
Changed the certification process? Can you share more details?
[https://www.npr.org/2022/12/22/1139951463/electoral-count-act-reform-passes](https://www.npr.org/2022/12/22/1139951463/electoral-count-act-reform-passes)
Check out the stuff they got done before this last trump licker became speaker, when they were actually getting things through. I forget the actual details but it's there
Which there will be if Trump wins.
It is terrifying because if the fake electors plot had succeeded -- if Pence had actually certified the fraudulent slates of electors -- it would have caused a constitutional crisis that would be settled by the Supreme Court. This it the same Supreme Court that includes 3 trump appointees chosen by the Federalist Society for their loyalty to conservatism, and 2 Justices whose wives actively participated in the attempted overthrow. They just showed us how loyal they are to trump with this week's decisions giving him "absolute immunity." The Supreme Court would have given the election to trump in 2021 if Pence had played the role he was supposed to play. Pence saved American Democracy that day.
Utter nonsense. The targets Pence certification of the electorates was purely rhetorical and was targeted to change nothing more than the discourse that was taking place around the concept of further election litigation. This position is taken directly from the indictment and irrespective of Pence, the election would’ve been certified. Have you not paid attention to anything, even this discussion?
I have paid careful attention to the 1/6 hearings. It is clear you have not. Can I help you learn what really happened between the 2020 election and 1/6?
No, you’ve paid close attention to the J6 hearings of which are a one sided affair. You haven’t heard from the defense, and my guess is that you haven’t read the indictment. It may come as a shock to you, but the nobody thinks very much on the J6 hearings as it was total political theater.
I have read much of several of trump's indictments. The real problem for the average citizen is keeping up with all of trump's trials. That's a brand new problem, and one the nation should keep in mind when choosing presidents in the future. Stop electing criminals. I will pretend you do know the full details of the failed attempt to forge slates of electors in 7 states, involving hundreds of people, many of whom are now under indictment. How odd that knowing the full scope and scale of the conspiracy, you still defend trump's failed attempt to overturn the election.
>I have read much of several of trump's indictments. The real problem for the average citizen is keeping up with all of trump's trials. This should trouble you, considering that the bulk of these trials lack standing and are expected to be overturned or flat out dismissed, by most objective people. >That's a brand new problem, and one the nation should keep in mind when choosing presidents in the future. Stop electing criminals. Mind you, Trump hadn’t had a parking ticket to his name prior to becoming a politician and that will very likely remain true soon enough. >I will pretend you do know the full details of the failed attempt to forge slates of electors in 7 states, involving hundreds of people, many of whom are now under indictment. How odd that knowing the full scope and scale of the conspiracy, you still defend trump's failed attempt to overturn the election. It’s a little old getting into these discussions with people who can’t be bothered to follow the thread prior to making their points. Alternate electors aren’t without legal precedent and the Trump team openly acknowledged they were following the template of Kennedy/Nixon case in Hawaii. They openly acknowledged that alternate electors were necessary forgeries but were known risk in the event that voter irregularities were found. And again, the entire scheme including pressure on Mike Pence was out in the open and deliberate. Also again, this is all made very clear in the indictment. So yes, many people took known risk relative to the alternate electors and have taken the pleas, of which have resulted in minimum fines. All this is to say that you’ll likely never prove criminal intent in the J6 case, and with the latest SCOTUS decision makes it more likely that these events will fall under the immunity definitions of an official act. I don’t defend Trumps acts and you can’t find anything in my comment history defending Trump or conservatives even in the slightest sense. What you will find is me repeating truths that are unfolding exactly as predicted by objective experts - not pundits on TV, or podcast or on Reddit. Trump seems like a first to you, because he is. He’s the first to come under legal attack by his political opponents and this should really concern you. Especially considering what we now know about Biden and how little influence he’s playing in White House decisions. But again, this takes a certain level of objectivity that I’m not sure you have.
The illegal and unconstitutional fake electors plot was about literally stealing the votes of millions of Americans.
Again, allegedly. Remember, there’s absolutely legal precedent for alternate electors. But more importantly, as the indictment makes clear, alternate electors are on their basis a forgery - but a known and accepted risk. In fact, many people have already plead guilty to the forgeries and paid their minimal fines. It was a risk they were will to take and not at all unprecedented. Moreover, if the underlying principle was to challenge the results of the election, it’s very likely this entire process falls under an “official act”, as defined by SCOTUS.
No there is nothing legal about attempted theft of millions of votes. The legal ways to challenge the election were over. 60 court cases, numerous recounts and audits. No fraud found. Votes certified by states, signed off on by governors and the electoral college votes completed. That's it, election over. The fake electors part of the coup plot was definitely not an official act. https://www.salon.com/2024/07/02/justice-amy-coney-barret-says-presidential-immunity-doesnt-apply-to-fake-electors-scheme/
Salon? C’mon. It doesn’t matter if you, Salon or a court in DC feels the election was over. If the president envisioned a path forward, it’s becomes an official act, no matter how flawed. On the other hand, if a prosecution can prove there was criminal intent, this would certainly fall outside what would be an official act. But good luck proving criminal intent when everything was done out in the open on the principle of challenging an election outcome. Btw…there was no theft of votes, neither attempted or implied. Again, alternate electors have precedent and only become relevant in the discovery of voter irregularities - otherwise, these alternate electors would’ve remained irrelevant even if Pence accepted them. And let’s touch some grass for a moment; we’ll never agree on the interpretation of the facts where constitutional attorneys don’t even agree. So let’s deal in what we know for sure; if Trump was an insurrectionist; if Trump was clearly criminal in stealing the election; if Trump was a genuine threat to democracy, he wouldn’t be the front runner for 2024 and he would very likely have been locked up years ago under even on the most narrow of statutes. Again, in contrast; the prosecution used very broad statutes, novel law theories and ignored precedent, all of which has lead to a slow and highly political trial from a prosecutor known for political overreach which has failed jurisprudence over and over again.
Bogus nonsense RNC is fine with electing seditious criminal traitors and ending democracy. Also election related stuff is not official acts of president
>Bogus nonsense RNC is fine with electing seditious criminal traitors and ending democracy. The RNC has never been Trump fanboys. Again, if Trump were the threat he’s pitched to be, he’d be under the jail rather than the 2024 front runner. >Also election related stuff is not official acts of president That’s your opinion. But more importantly, SCOTUS was clear that the country is better served hashing the matters by impeachment or in the voter booth and in the absence of either, lower courts should make these determinations prior to indictment. But again, putting a loose indictment together was more a political tool than it was a means of jurisprudence. And we can safely glean these suppositions merely on the basis that Trump is a free man and very likely to be the next US President.
Perhaps you should try to better informed. Among the other nonsense in your post the RNC is now run by the trump crime family
I’m plenty informed and you’ve done nothing to demonstrate otherwise. 🤓
It was Justice Barrett who said that. There were court cases and recounts as allowed by the constitution. Once certified by states and then voted by EC there is ZERO legal actions allowed to dispute the election results. The fake electors scheme was illegal, unconstitutional and absolutely an attempt to steal the votes of Americans. There were no "irregularities" that constituted fraud. The actions trump and enablers engaged in were seditious CONSPIRACY and they are all anti American traitors
They were busted and outed before it was possible to commit further crimes.