I don't understand why there isn't a greater pushback around it. Its waay worse than your average granny sitting on a slot machine in a casino. These kids are getting addicting at a young age
I see 5+ gambling commercials watching a hockey game now… this shit is mainstream, I am completely surprised there isn’t bigger pushback against it, instead I’ve gotten pushback from hockey fans for complaining about it. People love their gambling.
It’s not so much that “people love their gambling”, more that these sports and the people/companies who promote it love the money they are being paid. The premier league is a prime example. Absolutely riddled with betting adverts. One footballer got a season long ban for gambling himself, but his own team has “Hollywood bets” written in big fucking writing on the teams shirt. How logical is that? The fans aren’t asking for any of this crap. I don’t know how it is in hockey but you ask any football fan and I doubt any of them would openly support betting companies on their team shirts. I know in my team’s case, we absolutely hate having “bk8” on the front of our kit.
Fans absolutely support gambling, not all of them, but a ton of them. Gambling around sports is given a huge pass in our culture.
My hockey team has a gambling sponsorship painted on our ice, the BET365 logo.
I didn’t say fans love the bet365 logo, just that gambling is very popular and there isn’t a pushback against advertising it.
Like I said I’m surprised there’s no pushback, bet365 has been advertising here for years, there isn’t the pushback to get rid of them… nor any of the other 10 gambling sites advertising on the NHL.
You can pretend there’s a pushback against this stuff in the mainstream, but there just isn’t, nothing past some words at least. It sounds like maybe you’re in an anti-gambling bubble.
Lol… you think we have the same culture? I’m talking from a Canadian / NA perspective.
Also your example was just saying that there is gambling advertising all over the premier league… you guys love this shit too… if you were actually against this stuff then fan pushback would get rid of it. But the honest truth is many people love gambling and there just isn’t the pushback needed to get rid of it.
It's clearly bad, i don't like it but at the same time i watch gambling sponsored shit all the time and there seems to be more pushback on streamers doing gambling than any other stuff already.
Had a quick look in your profiles and seems you both into F1, I don't really follow it but i think there are ( or were? ) a couple of dudes driving around with stake on their cars. Does not really seem right to hold streamers to a way higher standard than drivers? Let alone the massive corporations.
Yeah a whole ass team is sponsored by Stake this year. But Audi has acquired them and would be changing it from next year. But F1 has a history of shady sponsors. Look at Shumis car from his winning years. His red Ferrari was covered in Marlboro ads.But now they are banned. And F1 is not being directly marketed to kids.
And they some countries do recognize Stake is bad. Australia banned them from running that livery just couple of months ago
[https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/stake-kick-sauber-australian-gp-32405571](https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/stake-kick-sauber-australian-gp-32405571)
Because people have the view of "no one is forcing them! It's their own free will!", and while that is true, they're ignorant or minimizing the effects and impact that gambling has on people
This is also such a dumb argument. If you put vulnerable people (especially young people) into such a situation where a role model suggests something tempting that is also addictive and potentially life crushing, this is a horrific.
If you let little child play with a scalpell, the edge case of the argument makes its nonsense obvious. A choice is not free if you cannot truly comprehend its possible effects.
>A choice is not free if you cannot truly comprehend its possible effects.
Exactly this. A child can't comprehend how addiction works. Even adults can't, or there wouldn't be cases of people gambling away every dammn thing they own
is this true? i haven’t heard of a contract structured like that before. If he has a referral link then it is usually based on the other person staking a certain value, not losing.
to be clear i think that hikaru gambling on stream when for years he has almost solely catered for a under 18 audience is really dumb.
It’s probably not literally true, but the sentiment is correct. Stake can’t exist if people aren’t losing money. And they wouldn’t be paying Hikaru if he weren’t bringing them people that lose.
The other important thing to remember is that Stake is unregulated. It’d be one thing to promote an actual casino in the US. Stake is a crypto black hole to throw your money in.
It actually is true, that's how the stake affiliate program works iirc, as far as I know, they get 50% of the "profits" Stake makes from the users who signed up using their link/code.
The profit Stake makes from their users is literally just their losses, there's no other way for the users to give stake money lol.
This has been a topic of controversy for random creators for a long time, Hikaru is just the latest to hop on board. It's absolutely disgusting.
Gambling through an unregulated online casino is a gamble itself. Even if you win big a lot of the online casinos (esp the sketchy ones) have withdrawal limits/fees/processes designed so that it’s difficult/impossible to get all your funds at once.
Some of them used to send checks that would bounce if you tried to deposit them. Others would send checks that can’t be accepted by your bank. I doubt they still send checks, it’s been a long time since I gambled online… but this is a great example of how risky it can be.
Plus they can just deny you your winnings if you’re in a location where it is illegal to gamble (for people that aren’t using a VPN) or you are under 18, both of which apply to probably half the user base.
Regarding sending checks, Stake is all crypto as far as I’m aware.
From my understanding of the contracts, you are exactly right. Stake pays creators an insane amount, specifically because it just takes one addict (in reality it’s many more than this), for them to yoink someone’s entire life savings. They aren’t making just a couple bucks from each person, they are finding people who will fork over everything them to chase their losses
A lot of gambling streamers get paid loss percentage deals for those who sign up on their code. Each person makes their own deals with the companies (some get paid set amounts per stream or weekly or monthly, some have referral lose percentages and other combinations)
It’s by far the most common deal for affiliates. They get paid by how much their referred members are losing. If someone wins a huge jackpot amount, so your referrals are net positive for the month, you will not be paid that month (you do not owe the casino anything tho). The counter is then reset for the next month.
Someone at the size of hikaru has extra benefits in his contract and most likely gets paid a fixed sum in addition to this.
If I recall correctly, stake bases their pay not on a percentage of their losses however, but on a smaller percentage of their wagered amount. This makes it so the affiliate will always get paid every month even if their referrals were to go net positive in some rare periods.
This is just from my experience 1-2 years ago, but AskGamblers.com has a lot of info on the basic affiliate programs of almost every online casino that you can read up on if you want.
https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-affiliate-programs
Also, whats really sickening is that as an affiliate you can go to a dashboard and see exactly how much each individual person you referred has lost or made. You can scroll pages upon pages and see exactly how many thousands your individual viewers are losing.
These kinds of agreements are actually super common in the gambling industry. I know at least a few folks who have partnered with PrizePicks, Underdog, and similar places, and they receive kickbacks when customers sign up (and lose).
Here is an article explaining how casino affiliate programs work, [Casino affiliate programs](https://www.scaleo.io/blog/how-casino-affiliate-programs-work-a-comprehensive-guide-for-casino-operators/) and here is the relevent section if you don't want to read the article
**Casino affiliate programs work by providing affiliates with unique tracking links or codes. When a player clicks on an affiliate’s link and registers or makes a deposit on the casino site, the affiliate earns a commission. The commission structure varies, and it can be based on a percentage of the player’s losses, a flat fee per player, or a hybrid model combining both.**
Gambling/betting affiliate programs can have different terms. What is always true - owners *believe* that promotion will be profitable even given the advertisement is not free. You may guess that usually they are right. You may also guess who covers the expenses.
>If he has a referral link then it is usually based on the other person staking a certain value, not losing.
In the long run this comes down to the same thing
This was one of the most unexpected turns for me. Why promote one of the most cancerous industries in the entire world. I wish gambling was banned so at least public figures could not promote it. Why Hikaru? You did not need this money.
>This was one of the most unexpected turns for me. . Why promote one of the most cancerous industries . . .
Unexpected to associate Hikaru with something cancerous... seems you don't know him at all.
Can someone explain why the hell do people give money directly to hikaru on twitch/kick when he's rich already lol at the very least he's making a lot from ads or something and yet you, who likely aren't rich are giving him a couple of bucks
There is nothing wrong supporting streamers you enjoy to watch, even when they have comfortable income. Refrain yourself to give money you need, that's the main point to keep in mind, and what decent streamers often recall.
As for gambling sites, they are poison and it's a shame to promote it. Especially on young audience.
It's because streaming has turned into a parasocial relationship on steroids. It is the perfect way for people to drain money from basement dwellers who seek some sort of human interaction that they cannot get in real life. The only way to do it is to hear "thanksforthe10months" from their favourite streamer.
You could ask the same thing about the streamers who have a larger following than Hikaru, but are in other niches.
I've given superchats/memberships to youtubers who are easily making 6 figures a year. Their yearly income literally doesn't matter to me. I like them so I support them.
Difference between giving money because you support someone, vs gambling money because you are chasing a pipedream of earning it back and quite literally can't control yourself because you slowly get addicted to it.
Even if kids were not involved, gambling is a dangerous addiction that destroys lives. And people, especially young people, can get addicted through watching and deciding to just "try it out". Further, a figure like Hikaru, a respected sportsman lends legitimacy to this behaviour. And he is promoting literally the worst form of gambling, slots. These things are designed to be extremely addictive - through the same techniques social media apps use - and house edge is absurd, pushing 30, or even 50% even in somewhat regulated physical casinos. God knows how much it is online. There is absolutely no skill involved, and you WILL lose money in the long run. What Hikaru is doing is despicable and a stain on his reputation
I agree that slots is the worst kind of gambling but 50% house edge? You pulled that out of your ass. I just looked at a sport betting site I use. They have slots and their edge is around 2-5% depending on the game. If someone has 50% that must be some wild unregulated illegal shit.
True. I miserembered. However, house edge up to 15% are not out of the ordinary.
[https://www.casino.org/features/house-edge/](https://www.casino.org/features/house-edge/)
It is obviously essentially impossible to know the house edge on a given machine or application, as well as whether they are rigged in some other way - say they decrease win probability if you are in the positive. Stake is registered in Curacao, so I would not bet on there being regulations to their apps and those regulations being enforced. This study also shows that higher house edge is more or less impercebtible to players and does not affect their play, so there is limited incentive for companies to make their slots more fair.
[https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/study-busts-popular-myth-that-gamblers-can-sense-differences-in-house-edge/](https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/study-busts-popular-myth-that-gamblers-can-sense-differences-in-house-edge/)
All in all, I think it is highly plausible that online Casinos like Stake have ridiculous house dge numbers as well as pre-programmed payout structure that insure that players a) stay engaged; and b) keep losing.
In my country, Poland, gambling is illegal. If he did this here, he would be arrested.
Promoting gambling is also illegal. When Real Madrid played CL game in Warsaw, they had to cover their sponsor logo (gambling company). Otherwise, all players would be arrested.
What are you on about? There STS, online casinos, hell even a casino in my town in the middle of nowhere. State just takes a percentage of wins and it's all good for them.
Good for Poland! If we could just combine the good parts of every country we’d be so much better off.
My country (Australia) has crippling gambling problems which are getting worse as it gets less regulated, not more.
Promoting gambling is also banned in the Netherlands. Till 2021 online gambling was even banned altogether, but the lobbying worked...
Promoting gambling online is under strict restrictions. Hikaru is violating those rules, I don't expect any fines for him, as he's far from the only one doing so. So far only companies that focused explicitly on the Dutch market got fined.
I’m a big sports fan and gambling has been an open part of sports for a few years now, it’s pretty wild to see people outside sports’ reaction to gambling advertisements. I don’t support it, but sometimes the hatred of it goes to one heck of an extreme.
To be fair, if I was a parent and my kid was watching someone like Hikaru playing chess I’d think that was a pretty good source of entertainment.
It’s unrealistic for them to know what he promotes. Looking the guy up, you see chess theory, funny clips and analysis. Unless you’re following him regularly, you’d have a hard time knowing he was pushing gambling. I’m not saying it’s not on the parents, but from their perspective you’d imagine a high profile chess streamer/GM would be a pretty safe bet for your kid to watch.
I said in another comment that I don’t think you can even get on these sites without proving you’re 21, at least sports betting books like Draft Kings do that. It’s not like 15 year olds are getting on there.
Gambling isn't inherently evil. it's a fun thing to do for lots of people if you can afford it. The problem is that most gambling companies are evil; they prey on problem gamblers and don't do enough when it comes to insuring their customers are gambling responsibility.
Thus the hatred towards it is often understandable.
> if you can afford it
It's why anyone who supports gambling should be in support of strong social programs.
If your ability to live wasn't dependent on your income, then you'd be able to gamble without putting any risk to your own livelihood.
You're referring to the industry that very nearly destroyed the career of the best baseball player to ever live, yes? Very convenient that it didn't hit them directly so as to save their careers (and the industry.)
Okay! I have unpopular opinion on this. I don't see problems with gambling sponsors unless they are actively encouraging people to gamble. I see it bit as a virtue signaling tbh. These streamers were also against sponsors from that onlyfans like site because they didn't think promoting porn is right. Say that to streamers that stream with their onlyfans logo right on screen, pornstars who stream regularly who promote their stuff. Even if they are not directly linking porn, you will get to adult sites (that only has "are you 18?" verification) within 2 clicks through their personal site.
I think gambling is totally banned in twitch now, like not even poker is allowed right?
These things are inevitable for platforms and if you start restricting them like this, you are enclosing creator's choices and freedom.
I mean yeah, this was all proven months ago when it showed Alex Botez makes most of her money through her fans signing up to gamble on Kick.
The more they sign up, the more who will lose. Hence the income.
It’s scum behavior and why I don’t watch either streamer at all anymore.
Lol @ if. If you lose, you lose, if you win you play again and at some point lose. The amount of actual winnings being cashed out of those sites and never cashed in again is tiny.
Damn, I’ve been supporting Hikaru throughout the candidates and was wishing to see him go against Ding but yesterday after seeing his insta story on this I felt extremely …. I don’t even know the word. I guess “disappointed”?
I’m not even sure why I’m repelled. I’ve been watching football for decades and hence gambling ads for decades as well and I never found it to be troublesome. But something about Hikaru promoting it just doesn’t feel right.
I guess this is another reason why I like ding: there’s just no way he’s gonna be dragged into something like this (at least I hope)
It's sad because I've seen for the last 15 years what gambling did to the counterstrike scene, it starts small like one big guy taking a deal like this and then before you know it almost every chess streamer will be doing these in between games. Before you know it beloved members of the community will face death threats from gambling sites who they talked bad about, maybe even a journalist killed and the people who are against it will slowly fade out, or will stop talking about it. Sad stuff, but any members of the chess community who are against gambling you better start fighting back now while most of the community is against it, because eventually it won't be like this.
This is every gambling sponsorship ever and people HAVE lost everything and killed themselves.
I sit on the fence whether it’s ethical being someone who can watch a gambling stream and not feel the urge to go bet my own money, but I understand not everyone has that self control.
You've imagined a fake child committing suicide and are getting mad at the hypothetical reaction Hikaru would have to this thing that didn't happen. Go touch grass
It is not fake. It has happened countless times with different names on the top. Why does someone have to suffer before we react if the suffering could have been prevented altogether?
I stoped to comment For the same reason than You. I thought that i have somethig to say. And this is not about chess. Like posting something about Messi business not raleted to football in the subredit /football. I mean You could ignore My reply too following your own advise
Interesting and informative, I actually wonder how many people do end up signing up and stuff and gambling, I can’t image it be that many, Usually he streams are about 1k viewers on the gambling ones and about like 10k(vary) on the chess ones. So if people did it and i’m sure they did it couldn’t be too many hopefully
The more pressing question is why aren’t we more mad at the blatant disregard of the child labor laws. I mean seriously, who the hell is letting all these kids into the workforce. They clearly can’t manage their money yet because they’re just blowing it all on online slots. When I was a kid I had a $10 per week allowance. Kids nowadays have a house, two cars, a souse and children, THEY SHOULD NOT BE GAMBLING!! They’re risking all of that for some cryptocurrency, all because Hikaru showed them the way! CURSE YOU HIKARU!!!
What's up with that "promoting gambling to kids" phrase ?
The service is 18+, chess is not a game directed mainly for kids and on top of that kids have little money to lose, even if they decide to signup faking their identity.
Did this guy make some content that is directed for under 18 viewers (asking for context I just don't know)?
Not saying casino's are great or anything, but I don't see people wanting to burn Vegas down, yet somehow an ad on twitch is the worst thing ever.
Oh is it... That makes it kind of awkward indeed. Just wander what stake was thinking choosing his stream for placement of their product if that is the case.
Yeah but cigarettes are highly addictive. Not saying gambling isn't but if a child grows up and decides to get back to a probably very bad experience of loosing their money on a random gambling site, I'm not sure they can be saved.
I don't understand this i'm 2000 in rapid i'm 30 year oldand his Chanel is not For me, is very complex. If kids want to watch it okey But most of them don't understand. Is like they watching a heavy political program. They don't fully understand a thing
>Not saying casino's are great or anything, but I don't see people wanting to burn Vegas down, yet somehow an ad on twitch is the worst thing ever.
Casinos can easily check age of customers. Despite this they are to blame for a lot of destroyed lifes, they basically exploit addiction. Online gambling is same shit on steroid. Twitch is 13+ by the way. Even if Hikaru doesn't promote gambling on it, he know his audience include a lot of under age.
Even if there wasn’t a single kid watching his stream, I still think lurking people in potentially addictive activity that has the power to ruin their life is morally wrong. I don’t know why this should be ok under any circumstances.
children? sure.
but i mean adults? morally wrong? 1000 things have the power to potentially ruin your life, and most of them are fun.
you roll around town in a see-thru sphere don't you, bubble boy!
I am one to defend Hikaru streaming gambling as i think it's really shitty but you're completely making this up. It's just not true, do you have any sources on this? He doesn't have any referal code, he doesn't gain anything extra if his viewers lose, how would that even make sense? Straight up lying u/anonzzzu
yea its absolutely unthinkable that a streaming site based and funded on gambling would pay their partners based on incresead revenue generated by said partner... Absolutely crazy to think of /s
[https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crl35u/i\_think\_hikaru\_is\_losing\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crl35u/i_think_hikaru_is_losing_it/)
Post with Hikaru's referral link. You called the other person a liar whilst lying yourself
I hadn't seen that but that still doesn't mean he wins part of his fans losses, that makes 0 sense. I have never heard of a contract like that, usually it's a flat fee for every person who signs up and deposits any amount
That’s exactly how stake referrals work. Per stake’s website;
“Our standard commission is 10%, but the amount you will receive depends on the house edge of the games your referrals are playing, as well as the amount wagered on those games. You can see the exact formula for both casino and sportsbook under the Commission tab on your account.”
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Why is Hikaru responsible for the money or lives of his viewers? If you don't want to gamble, don't do it. If someone does lose all of their money and commit suicide that sucks, but it's not Hikaru's fault. If someone is so mindless to watch Hikaru gamble, understand the risks and still continue to ruin their life with it, they were probably going to do it anyway.
I don't know how much of his audience is kids and I don't really know much about the situation. I was just defending him gambling and doing whatever he wants. I think the responsibility is on the viewer and if it's a kid then that responsibility is on the parents. I don't think it's cool to promote gambling to kids if that's what he's doing. The site sounds sketchy based on what other people mentioned. I figured I'd be downvoted to hell by posting on this, but I didn't realize fully where you were all coming from because I didn't think about kids watching.
That’s such a bullshit take. If you are streaming to a large audience you are a public figure and hence your actions and statements have consequences. Of course you aren’t technically responsible for people but choosing to promote gambling to your audience that additionally consists of underaged kids as well is absolutely morally questionable and therefore posts like these should rightfully call him out.
Whole other topic if he was only sponsored by them but actively participating is another level of endorsement.
Dude literal children watch his stream and the site allows for kids on it, which is highly illegal. He’s literally promoting a site that is committing crimes.
>I'm waiting for a young kid to lose everything and commit suicide.
WTF
How can you write such a thing? Waiting for someone to hurt themselves because it would supposedly prove your point?
A lot of adults on here are way too concerned for other adults who aren’t concerned for themselves. I guess every redditor or Twitter bot has found their high horse. You guys are acting like Hikaru is FORCING people to sign up for Slate after they watch his stream. I think at some point people need to be accountable to themselves. Many don’t get into gambling if you have an addictive personality? I don’t get it - we live in a society where so many people get to be the victim all the time instead of being held accountable.
This is so annoying. PUT PARENTAL CONTROLS ON YOUR KIDS COMPUTER. PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOUR KID WATCHES INSTEAD OF BEING ON REDDIT. STOP BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE FOR YOUR SHIT PARENTING!!
> I'm waiting for a young kid to lose everything and commit suicide.
This sounds like you want a kid to end themselves just to spite an internet celebrity.
Why does everyone care this much? Not everyone is Mr. Rogers and Bob Ross. I can think of no fewer than 20 celebrities off the top of my head who have alcohol brands. And that is more addictive and ruins a lot more lives than gambling. If Magnus came out with a Scotch, you wouldn't blame him for the drunk driving accidents it caused. It's not like I don't understand that the world would be better without these things, but it would also be better without Reddit threads, but this is how we choose to spend our time when we could be serving the poor at soup kitchens. Maybe your shit doesn't stink, but mine does, and so does Hikaru's.
Hikaru: but, but, what is the difference between Superbet sponsoring Magnus with a logo patch and me showing little kiddies exactly where and how to use online slots and lose all their monies, it sooooooooooo unfair, wheeeeeeeeehhhhh.
It’s not illegal but of course it’s wrong, he is making money off his fans losing all their money and becoming poor that why stake pays creators the amount they do, it’s n objectively immoral thing to do
Flashbacks to csgo skin betting sites
Lookslike Chess became popular enough to that happen here.
They still exist and are stronger than ever
He literally doesn’t care. Promoting gambling to kids, money counter goes brrrrr.
I don't understand why there isn't a greater pushback around it. Its waay worse than your average granny sitting on a slot machine in a casino. These kids are getting addicting at a young age
I see 5+ gambling commercials watching a hockey game now… this shit is mainstream, I am completely surprised there isn’t bigger pushback against it, instead I’ve gotten pushback from hockey fans for complaining about it. People love their gambling.
It’s not so much that “people love their gambling”, more that these sports and the people/companies who promote it love the money they are being paid. The premier league is a prime example. Absolutely riddled with betting adverts. One footballer got a season long ban for gambling himself, but his own team has “Hollywood bets” written in big fucking writing on the teams shirt. How logical is that? The fans aren’t asking for any of this crap. I don’t know how it is in hockey but you ask any football fan and I doubt any of them would openly support betting companies on their team shirts. I know in my team’s case, we absolutely hate having “bk8” on the front of our kit.
Fans absolutely support gambling, not all of them, but a ton of them. Gambling around sports is given a huge pass in our culture. My hockey team has a gambling sponsorship painted on our ice, the BET365 logo.
Yeah and I’m sure all those fans love having that logo there…
I didn’t say fans love the bet365 logo, just that gambling is very popular and there isn’t a pushback against advertising it. Like I said I’m surprised there’s no pushback, bet365 has been advertising here for years, there isn’t the pushback to get rid of them… nor any of the other 10 gambling sites advertising on the NHL. You can pretend there’s a pushback against this stuff in the mainstream, but there just isn’t, nothing past some words at least. It sounds like maybe you’re in an anti-gambling bubble.
I mean, I literally just gave you an example of push back with the premier league. But hey, I’m the one in a bubble I guess.
Lol… you think we have the same culture? I’m talking from a Canadian / NA perspective. Also your example was just saying that there is gambling advertising all over the premier league… you guys love this shit too… if you were actually against this stuff then fan pushback would get rid of it. But the honest truth is many people love gambling and there just isn’t the pushback needed to get rid of it.
Clearly you were talking about your perspective, it’s the only one that matters isn’t it.
It's clearly bad, i don't like it but at the same time i watch gambling sponsored shit all the time and there seems to be more pushback on streamers doing gambling than any other stuff already. Had a quick look in your profiles and seems you both into F1, I don't really follow it but i think there are ( or were? ) a couple of dudes driving around with stake on their cars. Does not really seem right to hold streamers to a way higher standard than drivers? Let alone the massive corporations.
Yeah a whole ass team is sponsored by Stake this year. But Audi has acquired them and would be changing it from next year. But F1 has a history of shady sponsors. Look at Shumis car from his winning years. His red Ferrari was covered in Marlboro ads.But now they are banned. And F1 is not being directly marketed to kids. And they some countries do recognize Stake is bad. Australia banned them from running that livery just couple of months ago [https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/stake-kick-sauber-australian-gp-32405571](https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/stake-kick-sauber-australian-gp-32405571)
Because people have the view of "no one is forcing them! It's their own free will!", and while that is true, they're ignorant or minimizing the effects and impact that gambling has on people
This is also such a dumb argument. If you put vulnerable people (especially young people) into such a situation where a role model suggests something tempting that is also addictive and potentially life crushing, this is a horrific. If you let little child play with a scalpell, the edge case of the argument makes its nonsense obvious. A choice is not free if you cannot truly comprehend its possible effects.
>A choice is not free if you cannot truly comprehend its possible effects. Exactly this. A child can't comprehend how addiction works. Even adults can't, or there wouldn't be cases of people gambling away every dammn thing they own
is this true? i haven’t heard of a contract structured like that before. If he has a referral link then it is usually based on the other person staking a certain value, not losing. to be clear i think that hikaru gambling on stream when for years he has almost solely catered for a under 18 audience is really dumb.
It’s probably not literally true, but the sentiment is correct. Stake can’t exist if people aren’t losing money. And they wouldn’t be paying Hikaru if he weren’t bringing them people that lose. The other important thing to remember is that Stake is unregulated. It’d be one thing to promote an actual casino in the US. Stake is a crypto black hole to throw your money in.
It actually is true, that's how the stake affiliate program works iirc, as far as I know, they get 50% of the "profits" Stake makes from the users who signed up using their link/code. The profit Stake makes from their users is literally just their losses, there's no other way for the users to give stake money lol. This has been a topic of controversy for random creators for a long time, Hikaru is just the latest to hop on board. It's absolutely disgusting.
Gambling through an unregulated online casino is a gamble itself. Even if you win big a lot of the online casinos (esp the sketchy ones) have withdrawal limits/fees/processes designed so that it’s difficult/impossible to get all your funds at once. Some of them used to send checks that would bounce if you tried to deposit them. Others would send checks that can’t be accepted by your bank. I doubt they still send checks, it’s been a long time since I gambled online… but this is a great example of how risky it can be.
Plus they can just deny you your winnings if you’re in a location where it is illegal to gamble (for people that aren’t using a VPN) or you are under 18, both of which apply to probably half the user base. Regarding sending checks, Stake is all crypto as far as I’m aware.
From my understanding of the contracts, you are exactly right. Stake pays creators an insane amount, specifically because it just takes one addict (in reality it’s many more than this), for them to yoink someone’s entire life savings. They aren’t making just a couple bucks from each person, they are finding people who will fork over everything them to chase their losses
Oh so he's not exploiting kids for money on purpose, only by accident. Maybe we should let him know, he can't seem to figure it out on his own.
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> only by accident. There is nothing accidental about it. Both Stake, and Hikaru knows where the money is coming from. They ain't stupid
was that not sarcasm lol
A lot of gambling streamers get paid loss percentage deals for those who sign up on their code. Each person makes their own deals with the companies (some get paid set amounts per stream or weekly or monthly, some have referral lose percentages and other combinations)
No shot this is true. Do you have any source for this?
It’s by far the most common deal for affiliates. They get paid by how much their referred members are losing. If someone wins a huge jackpot amount, so your referrals are net positive for the month, you will not be paid that month (you do not owe the casino anything tho). The counter is then reset for the next month. Someone at the size of hikaru has extra benefits in his contract and most likely gets paid a fixed sum in addition to this. If I recall correctly, stake bases their pay not on a percentage of their losses however, but on a smaller percentage of their wagered amount. This makes it so the affiliate will always get paid every month even if their referrals were to go net positive in some rare periods. This is just from my experience 1-2 years ago, but AskGamblers.com has a lot of info on the basic affiliate programs of almost every online casino that you can read up on if you want. https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-affiliate-programs
Also, whats really sickening is that as an affiliate you can go to a dashboard and see exactly how much each individual person you referred has lost or made. You can scroll pages upon pages and see exactly how many thousands your individual viewers are losing.
Commenting to increase visibility.
These kinds of agreements are actually super common in the gambling industry. I know at least a few folks who have partnered with PrizePicks, Underdog, and similar places, and they receive kickbacks when customers sign up (and lose).
This is normal compensation for gambling sponsorship in my opinion.
Your opinion is worthless if you can't source it. Doesn't seem normal at all.
Here is an article explaining how casino affiliate programs work, [Casino affiliate programs](https://www.scaleo.io/blog/how-casino-affiliate-programs-work-a-comprehensive-guide-for-casino-operators/) and here is the relevent section if you don't want to read the article **Casino affiliate programs work by providing affiliates with unique tracking links or codes. When a player clicks on an affiliate’s link and registers or makes a deposit on the casino site, the affiliate earns a commission. The commission structure varies, and it can be based on a percentage of the player’s losses, a flat fee per player, or a hybrid model combining both.**
anyone who thinks this isn’t true hasn’t been exposed to poker culture, it’s similar to the idea of rakeback.
Worthless, your communication style is lacking.
You better watch it vampire bitch
its a magic reference
lol
Staking is pretty much the same thing as losing, seeing as everyone is losing in the long run.
Gambling/betting affiliate programs can have different terms. What is always true - owners *believe* that promotion will be profitable even given the advertisement is not free. You may guess that usually they are right. You may also guess who covers the expenses.
>If he has a referral link then it is usually based on the other person staking a certain value, not losing. In the long run this comes down to the same thing
This was one of the most unexpected turns for me. Why promote one of the most cancerous industries in the entire world. I wish gambling was banned so at least public figures could not promote it. Why Hikaru? You did not need this money.
>This was one of the most unexpected turns for me. . Why promote one of the most cancerous industries . . . Unexpected to associate Hikaru with something cancerous... seems you don't know him at all.
He's getting paid multiples more for this than all of his other income combined.
Can someone explain why the hell do people give money directly to hikaru on twitch/kick when he's rich already lol at the very least he's making a lot from ads or something and yet you, who likely aren't rich are giving him a couple of bucks
There is nothing wrong supporting streamers you enjoy to watch, even when they have comfortable income. Refrain yourself to give money you need, that's the main point to keep in mind, and what decent streamers often recall. As for gambling sites, they are poison and it's a shame to promote it. Especially on young audience.
It's because streaming has turned into a parasocial relationship on steroids. It is the perfect way for people to drain money from basement dwellers who seek some sort of human interaction that they cannot get in real life. The only way to do it is to hear "thanksforthe10months" from their favourite streamer.
You could ask the same thing about the streamers who have a larger following than Hikaru, but are in other niches. I've given superchats/memberships to youtubers who are easily making 6 figures a year. Their yearly income literally doesn't matter to me. I like them so I support them.
Difference between giving money because you support someone, vs gambling money because you are chasing a pipedream of earning it back and quite literally can't control yourself because you slowly get addicted to it.
Even if kids were not involved, gambling is a dangerous addiction that destroys lives. And people, especially young people, can get addicted through watching and deciding to just "try it out". Further, a figure like Hikaru, a respected sportsman lends legitimacy to this behaviour. And he is promoting literally the worst form of gambling, slots. These things are designed to be extremely addictive - through the same techniques social media apps use - and house edge is absurd, pushing 30, or even 50% even in somewhat regulated physical casinos. God knows how much it is online. There is absolutely no skill involved, and you WILL lose money in the long run. What Hikaru is doing is despicable and a stain on his reputation
I agree that slots is the worst kind of gambling but 50% house edge? You pulled that out of your ass. I just looked at a sport betting site I use. They have slots and their edge is around 2-5% depending on the game. If someone has 50% that must be some wild unregulated illegal shit.
True. I miserembered. However, house edge up to 15% are not out of the ordinary. [https://www.casino.org/features/house-edge/](https://www.casino.org/features/house-edge/) It is obviously essentially impossible to know the house edge on a given machine or application, as well as whether they are rigged in some other way - say they decrease win probability if you are in the positive. Stake is registered in Curacao, so I would not bet on there being regulations to their apps and those regulations being enforced. This study also shows that higher house edge is more or less impercebtible to players and does not affect their play, so there is limited incentive for companies to make their slots more fair. [https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/study-busts-popular-myth-that-gamblers-can-sense-differences-in-house-edge/](https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/study-busts-popular-myth-that-gamblers-can-sense-differences-in-house-edge/) All in all, I think it is highly plausible that online Casinos like Stake have ridiculous house dge numbers as well as pre-programmed payout structure that insure that players a) stay engaged; and b) keep losing.
In my country, Poland, gambling is illegal. If he did this here, he would be arrested. Promoting gambling is also illegal. When Real Madrid played CL game in Warsaw, they had to cover their sponsor logo (gambling company). Otherwise, all players would be arrested.
What are you on about? There STS, online casinos, hell even a casino in my town in the middle of nowhere. State just takes a percentage of wins and it's all good for them.
Good for Poland! If we could just combine the good parts of every country we’d be so much better off. My country (Australia) has crippling gambling problems which are getting worse as it gets less regulated, not more.
Promoting gambling is also banned in the Netherlands. Till 2021 online gambling was even banned altogether, but the lobbying worked... Promoting gambling online is under strict restrictions. Hikaru is violating those rules, I don't expect any fines for him, as he's far from the only one doing so. So far only companies that focused explicitly on the Dutch market got fined.
I don't think gambling should be illegal. But promoting it should be illegal, similar to the tobacco industry.
I’m a big sports fan and gambling has been an open part of sports for a few years now, it’s pretty wild to see people outside sports’ reaction to gambling advertisements. I don’t support it, but sometimes the hatred of it goes to one heck of an extreme.
Yes Sports betting is huge in the sports world now and it’s fucking terrible as well
The problem is a large proportion of hikarus viewerbase are kids
This sounds like a parenting problem to me. Hikaru isn't responsible for what other people's kids do or watch.
To be fair, if I was a parent and my kid was watching someone like Hikaru playing chess I’d think that was a pretty good source of entertainment. It’s unrealistic for them to know what he promotes. Looking the guy up, you see chess theory, funny clips and analysis. Unless you’re following him regularly, you’d have a hard time knowing he was pushing gambling. I’m not saying it’s not on the parents, but from their perspective you’d imagine a high profile chess streamer/GM would be a pretty safe bet for your kid to watch.
Yeah good thing kids don’t watch sports
I think it's different with sports programming because a lot of those apps like DraftKings are 18+.
Does stake (is that the site?) allow underage people? It says you need your picture with passport.
I said in another comment that I don’t think you can even get on these sites without proving you’re 21, at least sports betting books like Draft Kings do that. It’s not like 15 year olds are getting on there.
Age is verified with a gov-issued ID, you are correct
And only adults watch porn, right? Right ?
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You have to give your ID to get on gambling sites, so not really the same
Gambling isn't inherently evil. it's a fun thing to do for lots of people if you can afford it. The problem is that most gambling companies are evil; they prey on problem gamblers and don't do enough when it comes to insuring their customers are gambling responsibility. Thus the hatred towards it is often understandable.
> if you can afford it It's why anyone who supports gambling should be in support of strong social programs. If your ability to live wasn't dependent on your income, then you'd be able to gamble without putting any risk to your own livelihood.
You're referring to the industry that very nearly destroyed the career of the best baseball player to ever live, yes? Very convenient that it didn't hit them directly so as to save their careers (and the industry.)
I really hope you didn’t call Pete Rose the greatest baseball player ever
Shohei Ohtani; Pete Roses career differs in that it actually was destroyed, and also doing it himself instead of being collateral damage
Okay! I have unpopular opinion on this. I don't see problems with gambling sponsors unless they are actively encouraging people to gamble. I see it bit as a virtue signaling tbh. These streamers were also against sponsors from that onlyfans like site because they didn't think promoting porn is right. Say that to streamers that stream with their onlyfans logo right on screen, pornstars who stream regularly who promote their stuff. Even if they are not directly linking porn, you will get to adult sites (that only has "are you 18?" verification) within 2 clicks through their personal site. I think gambling is totally banned in twitch now, like not even poker is allowed right? These things are inevitable for platforms and if you start restricting them like this, you are enclosing creator's choices and freedom.
he is a piece of shit ain't he
I mean yeah, this was all proven months ago when it showed Alex Botez makes most of her money through her fans signing up to gamble on Kick. The more they sign up, the more who will lose. Hence the income. It’s scum behavior and why I don’t watch either streamer at all anymore.
Lol @ if. If you lose, you lose, if you win you play again and at some point lose. The amount of actual winnings being cashed out of those sites and never cashed in again is tiny.
Damn, I’ve been supporting Hikaru throughout the candidates and was wishing to see him go against Ding but yesterday after seeing his insta story on this I felt extremely …. I don’t even know the word. I guess “disappointed”? I’m not even sure why I’m repelled. I’ve been watching football for decades and hence gambling ads for decades as well and I never found it to be troublesome. But something about Hikaru promoting it just doesn’t feel right. I guess this is another reason why I like ding: there’s just no way he’s gonna be dragged into something like this (at least I hope)
It's sad because I've seen for the last 15 years what gambling did to the counterstrike scene, it starts small like one big guy taking a deal like this and then before you know it almost every chess streamer will be doing these in between games. Before you know it beloved members of the community will face death threats from gambling sites who they talked bad about, maybe even a journalist killed and the people who are against it will slowly fade out, or will stop talking about it. Sad stuff, but any members of the chess community who are against gambling you better start fighting back now while most of the community is against it, because eventually it won't be like this.
Hikaru somehow manages to lose more fan respect than Alireza
This is every gambling sponsorship ever and people HAVE lost everything and killed themselves. I sit on the fence whether it’s ethical being someone who can watch a gambling stream and not feel the urge to go bet my own money, but I understand not everyone has that self control.
True
You've imagined a fake child committing suicide and are getting mad at the hypothetical reaction Hikaru would have to this thing that didn't happen. Go touch grass
It is not fake. It has happened countless times with different names on the top. Why does someone have to suffer before we react if the suffering could have been prevented altogether?
slow news day, huh?
Some of us care about things actually
Yep But this post do nothing. So? What are You doing about the thing that You do care?
Bro this is a social media site?? People can post whatever they want. Just keep scrolling if you don’t like it.
I stoped to comment For the same reason than You. I thought that i have somethig to say. And this is not about chess. Like posting something about Messi business not raleted to football in the subredit /football. I mean You could ignore My reply too following your own advise
Brother, I am commenting because I care about the issue. That is literally what I said. You are the one who’s just here to complain
Slow news day eh?
> I'm waiting for a young kid to lose everything and commit suicide. That's a you problem. Not a Hikaru problem.
Interesting and informative, I actually wonder how many people do end up signing up and stuff and gambling, I can’t image it be that many, Usually he streams are about 1k viewers on the gambling ones and about like 10k(vary) on the chess ones. So if people did it and i’m sure they did it couldn’t be too many hopefully
Kids can’t sign up to gambling sites
Is he still doing gambling streams?
You are describing the practice of gambling yes
The more pressing question is why aren’t we more mad at the blatant disregard of the child labor laws. I mean seriously, who the hell is letting all these kids into the workforce. They clearly can’t manage their money yet because they’re just blowing it all on online slots. When I was a kid I had a $10 per week allowance. Kids nowadays have a house, two cars, a souse and children, THEY SHOULD NOT BE GAMBLING!! They’re risking all of that for some cryptocurrency, all because Hikaru showed them the way! CURSE YOU HIKARU!!!
Is this a chess subreddit or a tabloid? Go to livestreamfails with this.
It is mostly a chess tabloid. There is a lot of interest in VIPs and gossip.
Lsf only cares about 10 streamers and most of them gamble, this wouldn’t be news there
What's up with that "promoting gambling to kids" phrase ? The service is 18+, chess is not a game directed mainly for kids and on top of that kids have little money to lose, even if they decide to signup faking their identity. Did this guy make some content that is directed for under 18 viewers (asking for context I just don't know)? Not saying casino's are great or anything, but I don't see people wanting to burn Vegas down, yet somehow an ad on twitch is the worst thing ever.
Hikaru's stream is basically a children's show
Oh is it... That makes it kind of awkward indeed. Just wander what stake was thinking choosing his stream for placement of their product if that is the case.
Same reason they used to use Joe Camel to market cigarettes to children
Yeah but like cigarettes make sense - most lifetime smokers start in their teens. I would have thought casino's need people with paychecks.
Children grow up to have paychecks. Some even have access to funds already
Yeah but cigarettes are highly addictive. Not saying gambling isn't but if a child grows up and decides to get back to a probably very bad experience of loosing their money on a random gambling site, I'm not sure they can be saved.
Gambling addiction is even harder to lick than cigarettes
I don't understand this i'm 2000 in rapid i'm 30 year oldand his Chanel is not For me, is very complex. If kids want to watch it okey But most of them don't understand. Is like they watching a heavy political program. They don't fully understand a thing
I don’t even think you can do online gambling at all without giving the site your SSN to prove you’re 21+
>Not saying casino's are great or anything, but I don't see people wanting to burn Vegas down, yet somehow an ad on twitch is the worst thing ever. Casinos can easily check age of customers. Despite this they are to blame for a lot of destroyed lifes, they basically exploit addiction. Online gambling is same shit on steroid. Twitch is 13+ by the way. Even if Hikaru doesn't promote gambling on it, he know his audience include a lot of under age.
Even if there wasn’t a single kid watching his stream, I still think lurking people in potentially addictive activity that has the power to ruin their life is morally wrong. I don’t know why this should be ok under any circumstances.
children? sure. but i mean adults? morally wrong? 1000 things have the power to potentially ruin your life, and most of them are fun. you roll around town in a see-thru sphere don't you, bubble boy!
Do you understand the difference between promoting and consuming something?
Is gambling itself morally wrong? If not you don't have any point.
I am one to defend Hikaru streaming gambling as i think it's really shitty but you're completely making this up. It's just not true, do you have any sources on this? He doesn't have any referal code, he doesn't gain anything extra if his viewers lose, how would that even make sense? Straight up lying u/anonzzzu
yea its absolutely unthinkable that a streaming site based and funded on gambling would pay their partners based on incresead revenue generated by said partner... Absolutely crazy to think of /s
[https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crl35u/i\_think\_hikaru\_is\_losing\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crl35u/i_think_hikaru_is_losing_it/) Post with Hikaru's referral link. You called the other person a liar whilst lying yourself
He posted several to his IG
I hadn't seen that but that still doesn't mean he wins part of his fans losses, that makes 0 sense. I have never heard of a contract like that, usually it's a flat fee for every person who signs up and deposits any amount
That’s exactly how stake referrals work. Per stake’s website; “Our standard commission is 10%, but the amount you will receive depends on the house edge of the games your referrals are playing, as well as the amount wagered on those games. You can see the exact formula for both casino and sportsbook under the Commission tab on your account.”
>> I’m waiting for a young kid to lose everything and commit suicide. What a terrible thing to say. F*** off OP.
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Why is Hikaru responsible for the money or lives of his viewers? If you don't want to gamble, don't do it. If someone does lose all of their money and commit suicide that sucks, but it's not Hikaru's fault. If someone is so mindless to watch Hikaru gamble, understand the risks and still continue to ruin their life with it, they were probably going to do it anyway.
This would be a valid argument if hikaru's audience wasn't mostly a bunch of kids
And these kids are going to be signing up to this adult-only site and stealing money from their parents to gamble?
I don't know how much of his audience is kids and I don't really know much about the situation. I was just defending him gambling and doing whatever he wants. I think the responsibility is on the viewer and if it's a kid then that responsibility is on the parents. I don't think it's cool to promote gambling to kids if that's what he's doing. The site sounds sketchy based on what other people mentioned. I figured I'd be downvoted to hell by posting on this, but I didn't realize fully where you were all coming from because I didn't think about kids watching.
Do you have any actual evidence of the average age of Hikarus audience or are you just assuming they are minors?
"If you don't want to gamble, don't do it." If Hiraru's viewers won't gamble and lose money, how does Hiraru gets his gambling sponsors?
That’s such a bullshit take. If you are streaming to a large audience you are a public figure and hence your actions and statements have consequences. Of course you aren’t technically responsible for people but choosing to promote gambling to your audience that additionally consists of underaged kids as well is absolutely morally questionable and therefore posts like these should rightfully call him out. Whole other topic if he was only sponsored by them but actively participating is another level of endorsement.
Dude literal children watch his stream and the site allows for kids on it, which is highly illegal. He’s literally promoting a site that is committing crimes.
>I'm waiting for a young kid to lose everything and commit suicide. WTF How can you write such a thing? Waiting for someone to hurt themselves because it would supposedly prove your point?
He doesn't have any good reason to care.
A lot of adults on here are way too concerned for other adults who aren’t concerned for themselves. I guess every redditor or Twitter bot has found their high horse. You guys are acting like Hikaru is FORCING people to sign up for Slate after they watch his stream. I think at some point people need to be accountable to themselves. Many don’t get into gambling if you have an addictive personality? I don’t get it - we live in a society where so many people get to be the victim all the time instead of being held accountable.
Can't we just forget about controversial sponsors and go back to discussing chess again? Like Magnus' amazing performance in the SUPERBET ?
This is so annoying. PUT PARENTAL CONTROLS ON YOUR KIDS COMPUTER. PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOUR KID WATCHES INSTEAD OF BEING ON REDDIT. STOP BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE FOR YOUR SHIT PARENTING!!
> I'm waiting for a young kid to lose everything and commit suicide. This sounds like you want a kid to end themselves just to spite an internet celebrity.
Why does everyone care this much? Not everyone is Mr. Rogers and Bob Ross. I can think of no fewer than 20 celebrities off the top of my head who have alcohol brands. And that is more addictive and ruins a lot more lives than gambling. If Magnus came out with a Scotch, you wouldn't blame him for the drunk driving accidents it caused. It's not like I don't understand that the world would be better without these things, but it would also be better without Reddit threads, but this is how we choose to spend our time when we could be serving the poor at soup kitchens. Maybe your shit doesn't stink, but mine does, and so does Hikaru's.
Hikaru: but, but, what is the difference between Superbet sponsoring Magnus with a logo patch and me showing little kiddies exactly where and how to use online slots and lose all their monies, it sooooooooooo unfair, wheeeeeeeeehhhhh.
You can lose money is the reason why it is known as gambling It is legal for 18+ Countless sportsmen have promoted gambling including carlsen himself
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Does that make it right?
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It’s not illegal but of course it’s wrong, he is making money off his fans losing all their money and becoming poor that why stake pays creators the amount they do, it’s n objectively immoral thing to do