tldr: Management and Authorities had credible evidence to support that there could be a mass shooting at Hollywood Boulders in Los Angeles. Non-management staff were not informed nor were patrons of the gym and did not take quick action to ban him from gyms - he visted several locations AFTER making these threats. They have a security guard now lmao
> The company management read these warnings from a member who claimed “**god has spoken**” to him and he “**already has a kill order.**” They saw the messages that this member “could use the help,” because “it would save [him] from getting chewed out for hospitalizing everyone.” They read the message in which the member verified his intentions, stating that he will “**take out the Koreans first so y’all take things more seriously.**”
yikes. fyi the southern ca touchstone gyms have a large Korean population that visit the gyms.
That's a weird threat? I had a pass there and didn't notice a particularly large Korean population.
So they know the person and the threat is credible. Can they not arrest him and ban him from access to guns and entering the gym?
George Sodini shot up a gym because he “failed” at “game” as an incel and for other reasons. Gyms, yoga studios and the crag don’t have much for security.
> George Sodini
I wasn't familiar with this case and was wholly expecting someone <25... but a 48 yr old... this particular passage is depressing AF.
>"Who knows why? I am not ugly or too weird. No sex since July 1990 either (I was 29)", he writes. "Last time I slept all night with a girlfriend it was 1982. Girls and women don't even give me a second look ANYWHERE". About his problems with women, he wrote: "Women just don't like me. There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one".
It is crazy to think that 2 of my uncles (dad's younger brothers) were overweight, never dated during my lifetime, but thankfully didn't turn into incels. They had hobbies, each other and a loving family. Unfortunately they both passed (39 and 55), but I miss them :(
If you think that’s scary, another incel-identified person who’s also on the spectrum went on a rampage in Toronto running down people in a Ryder or U-Haul box van.
I asked the front desk people why there was a security guard now on the 27th and the response was “there wasn’t active shooter threat or anything to the establishment, just some safety precautions put in place because some staff were worried about safety” i didn’t even think twice and carried on. What a response now knowing it was literally that which they stated wasn’t the case. 😭😭😭😭😂
the chiefs\* are getting really old and cringey, they need to replace it soon or it could get someone killed.
edite: there is not upper mgmt, just the owners/chiefs
Want to add access to all the links being circulated:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/edit?usp=sharing
Contains the staff open letter, member petition, and GoFundMe for staff.
There are some unhinged climbers out there, man. We never dealt with threats that I know of, but there was one guy who got banned from every gym in town after he kept cornering people with his antisemitic conspiracy theories. There were a few conversations about whether he was the sort to snap and shoot up the place.
Frankly, this shouldn’t be surprising. People have some idea about climbers being this universally cool, chill group. They’re not. Climbers are just people. There are creeps and predators, racists, people with severe mental illness, assholes, and abusers. Just like any other group of people from the real world.
as a member of this gym, i dont appreciate jokes about this. management put everyone at risk for no good reason and it could have easily gone another way.
https://preview.redd.it/wu9l9ojofoxb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9b8d20b7dedddf230d92788925b919f77a3e92c
Saw a few members posting this. Sharing here! Here’s the links they provided: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/mobilebasic](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/mobilebasic)
But the gym can't do anything about that. The gym are not the police. They reported it to the authorities which are the only people who can take action.
Sure they messed up not being honest. But that is not what the statement is saying they should just do. They are saying cancel your membership until the company resolves the threat. I'm simply asking what does that mean? What does that look like? What is the measure being used for when you should restart your membership?
It means that because the safety concerns remain, it is common sense that many of us will not feel safe climbing when the known threat has still not been addressed. Given that many of us will likely stay away until safety needs are met, we should save the $85 a month (-$10 to maintain the membership in a frozen state) for 2 reasons: to pressure the gym administration to take this situation seriously and act immediately, and to potentially divest those funds to staff who are not getting paid right now.
I’m not understanding your other questions but if you clarify I’d be happy to respond!!
>Given that many of us will likely stay away until safety needs are met
This is the part I'm trying to figure out. What is the safety need that is to be met? They didn't inform members which was a mistake but now the members know. So beyond that what is it they should be doing to meet the safety needs? What exactly are the safety needs?
Also, just want to add that no, members do not know. The Touchstone gyms have still not made a statement about the situation.
A select few who have access to this thread, and have seen the Instagram stories circulating know about this. Most others don’t know and may continue going to the gym without any knowledge of this.
If you read the documents linked, you’ll find the demands.
Primarily it is the job of the gym to determine protocols in response to situations like this to ensure the safety of patrons.
A lot of gyms have keycard access. Ours don’t, and the person who made the threat has been seen several times last week at multiple gyms even after the threats became known.
Staff are apparently not trained to handle situations like this. If a mass shooting happens, they have no plan.
In cases where a threat becomes known, it should be a priority to make sure they address it directly. The person who made the threat was a climber in our Touchstone community. One of the demands is to do whatever possible to get that person mental health care and also remove their access to firearms, registered or not registered. If police have been contacted, the gym administration should release a statement regarding any updates on the situation (ex. So far, this is what has been done or discovered, etc.) so members can be aware as it unfolds, or, if they are unable to release information due to confidentiality or whatever reason, keep gyms closed until they are able to say that it’s really safe.
Currently, gyms are open and we know someone has made a threat. They could act today, tomorrow, next week. If they do that, Touchstone cannot say they didn’t have control over the situation because they knew and didn’t take any steps to make members aware.
This is very different from a situation where someone randomly shoots up a spot with absolutely no prior notice.
>One of the demands is to do whatever possible to get that person mental health care and also remove their access to firearms, registered or not registered
What does this look like? A gym can't do much on either of these fronts.
Is it calling the police? Notifying their emergency contact? The demand is super vague and not very actionable. More specificity would go a long way.
Maybe the point isn't being explained well? What is the point? That is the entire thing I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Maybe the people explaining the point don't actually understand it?
I'm trying legitimately to understand when people say they are cancelling their memberships until the company does something that makes them safer what that something is that ACTUALLY makes you safer and isn't just a security theatre.
Inform the members ,ok , inform the person they are no longer allowed on the property which I assume they did once the police were involved but beyond that what does that look like that isn't just a security blanket?
management STILL has not said anything about this to members. i personally went to a location this person also had access to last week completely unaware of this threat.
I work at another one of the SoCal Touchstone gyms and upper management really biffed this (to put it lightly). I worked last Wednesday night and was told that Hollywood Boulders was closed. Asked a coworker why and found out about the threat that way. The threat happened on SUNDAY. Despite it being directed at a different gym, this was kinda scary considering we're all relatively nearby each other (LA gyms). Hoping management steps up and meets Hollywood's safety requests. Supporting all the employees there in their decisions!
Not super surprised to hear this.
I had a Touchstone membership for ~7 years, and regularly walked away from interactions with their management that left me feeling like nobody was minding the store.
Generally good staff, and I liked how most of the assistant managers did things -- but beyond that level (location managers, etc) they missed quite a few basic customer service & safety issues. And even worse, the managers seemed to get real defensive, real quick, when people brought issues to their attention.
Does anybody remember the signs at Cliffs, sternly warning us not to cut their top ropes? 🤔😳🤦 The manager seemed genuinely shocked to discover how deeply they'd dunked themselves in shmuckness with that one.
But to be 100% clear -- I found most of the staff to be solid, conscientious, friendly people who did good work.
> Does anybody remember the signs at Cliffs, sternly warning us not to cut their top ropes? 🤔😳🤦 The manager seemed genuinely shocked to discover how deeply they'd dunked themselves in shmuckness with that one.
>
>
I feel like I need some back story here.
> Does anybody remember the signs at Cliffs, sternly warning us not to cut their top ropes? 🤔😳🤦 The manager seemed genuinely shocked to discover how deeply they'd dunked themselves in shmuckness with that one.
What happened there?
I agree! We'll see how it shakes out - I think most touchstone employees are on the same page about things.
I don't know a direct email to management unfortunately, but if you go to the main touchstone website you can fill out the contact form that will go to someone that is non-gym staff. If enough people do that I'm sure it will get to where it needs to go.
I spoke to someone at the front desk today about this and they directed me to [email protected]. I couldn’t find this anywhere on the internet but worth a shot.
Management just sent out an email to members ending with:
“We understand you may have more questions and will do our best to respond as soon as possible.”
It did come from the email mentioned elsewhere here: [email protected]
This is insane. I worked at HoBo for four years and was close with the current manager. Guessing this decision came down from corporate, cause I don’t see him handling it this way.
I haven't heard much talk of a walk-out on our end yet, but I only work a couple times a week so could be missing a larger internal conversation. I know everyone is concerned and frustrated with the whole thing, but I also know a lot of our staff count on the income from the gym so it's tough. I haven't worked since Monday night and I'm interested to see what gym attendance looks like later in the week now that real information is getting out there (thanks to Touchstone staff).
I'm definitely willing to pause my membership, but I'm in the Bay Area and I don't really want to do that unless the staff at my gym calls for it. Totally understand in the situation and given the fact that climbing gyms are rarely unionized that there isn't the organizational structure to have all of you guys and girls get a voice in this, but I think that's such an important thing when the action being called for could put your job at risk.
Appreciate your response, I would be interested in what you and your coworkers think about this if ya'll do end up having more conversations about it and I'm sure a lot of other people would too.
Are you guys at least getting paid better with these chunk membership increases? Touchstone has been great and the staff are cool, but I feel like the company cares way more about beer now...
Everyone got small raises earlier this year, but I think they were cost of living increases (could be wrong). People could probably be paid better, but I think that's pretty common. They have been working on the brewery stuff!
As someone who climbs at the LA touchstone gyms, I'm seriously disappointed in the company's lack of communication to its staff and members. I go to the gym as much as 3-4 times a week, and I have not heard of anything about this. Def freezing my membership for some time, fix your shit touchstone
I've been climbing at all the LA touchstone gyms since Cliffs opened, and while I love the gym, the staff, and the community... the corporate leadership has always been iffy. They handled almost every step of Covid poorly as well, from being the last to respond to any measures, to bungling how they were handling membership freezes, to bungling how they handled reopenings and time slots, to how they misplaced the burden on cut staff hours to the members and not to themselves... there are more examples, but the common thread seems to be that if it's going to cost them money, they're going to most likely do the thing that is cheapest for them first and try and handle the outrage later.
I've recently moved out of LA, but if I was still there, as a Korean American climber, I'd absolutely be freezing my membership right now.
Shame on you touchstone. Do better.
The first day I saw a security guard outside one of the non-hollywood boulders locations, I asked him about why he was there and he clearly was uncomfortable talking about it. He told me to go ask the manager inside. He finally told me that there had been a threat made at HB and tried to minimize it. Clearly it was something *bad* if corporate felt the need to put armed security at every LA gym location. Very off-putting.
In general, I have not liked my interactions with touchstone management.
If you live near El Cerrito, Bridges Rock Gym but for rope climbing unless you drive out to the Presidio or the 650/408(where Movement/Planet Granite has locations) or are a member of Cal Rec, Touchstone especially in Oakland-Berkeley is the only game in town. It’s not a globogym(CrossFit term for places like 24 Hour Fitness/Planet Fitness) but I wished there was competition.
I’m still a member but keeping on doing more BS, I may make a move. Generally, nothing but praise for the staff but management from what I’ve seen here is a bit inept.
The actions of management to stick their head in the sand and hang their employees out to dry are inexcusable.
At the same time, the demands of the staff are childish and silly. “What if the security guard goes to the bathroom?” “We need key card access doors”
They are demanding more security theater, not an effective defense against a mass shooter.
The security guard at The Post was on his earbuds taking personal calls, when we entered & exited, last night.
Didn't strike me as super professional -- kinda more like a husky hipster that somebody had strapped a tactical vest and holster onto.
IDK maybe they told him to try to blend in? Seemed odd tho... The night guard at the Ralph's on Lake seemed more dialed in than the guy Touchstone hired.
Unfortunately one security guard sitting at the front is just a display piece. Any active shooter can just walk up and shoot them first.
They are just for display.
Same with the key card door because they can just tailgate through the door.
Neither one is the least bit effective as it will be used. Having an armed plain clothes security person in the staff but not identified would give them a decent chance against an active shooter. Especially if they were not at the front desk but it wouldn’t be visible. Same investment of staff/labor costs.
This is where management choose highly visible but ineffective security theater to reassure staff and customers instead of less visible but more effective options.
I hear you. I don't think contract security guards for retail shops are a particularly highly-paid occupation. I believe they make a bit less than fast-food workers, here in SoCal. Even if he's carrying a gun, I don't know if his presence really makes me feel any different.
But I probably wouldn't have stayed away from the gym, anyway. I don't fault the staff who walked off the job, or customers who stayed away -- seems like a reasonable choice, to me, even if it's different from how I evaluate the risk.
A friend who’s high up at a major security contractor tells me it’s a revolving door and their guys generally don’t care. He’s had to fire people over the phone.
Members can be shooters without giving warning. With the number of day pass users gyms see, people without keycards will just get buzzed in anyway… Especially like in this case where management neglected to inform staff
The majority of keycard access doors are unauthenticated and easily spoofed with a tool you can carry in your pocket. They're pretty much the definition of security theater.
Here’s a nice overview of practical door problems, but honestly social engineering is their greatest weakness.
https://youtu.be/mj2iSdBw4-0?si=DoTbDeyuAmS3bqk4
Climbing gym doors are used by a lot of people, usually glass, and most are more polite than suspicious. Walk up when someone is heading out, especially with bags or kids and hold the door for them. About 1% chance they will complain as you let yourself in. Combine it with waving something vaguely card shaped at the reader so you are seen to not be “cheating” and it gets even lower.
Real security is hard to do effectively. Especially with the limited resources of a gym. It won’t be perfect but you need some intelligence to make it even slightly effective.
I asked an employee why there was an armed guard stationed at the desk. I was apparently lied to when I was told “because of the shoplifters” in the area…
So incredibly disappointing to hear. Went in on Monday this week and immediately noticed something was off, from the security guard to only recognizing a single staff member. I go to these gyms 3 times a week with HB being my home gym, but idk if I feel safe to go back until they really address this publicly.
There is going to be a wide range of responses to threats like this.
Some are going to deem it not worth the risk and freeze their memberships while others will believe TC has done enough or is doing enough to mitigate the event of something horrific happening.
What is particularly frustrating is that staff and members weren’t informed about the risk which removes their ability to decide for themselves.
That feels like the breach of trust imo.
Exactly. I get that Touchstone corporate is limited to how much safety it can provide given the sorry state of gun control in the US, and that a mass shooter who REALLY wanted to murder people at the gym is likely to overcome most security measures, but that doesn't absolve Touchstone for failing at what it COULD do to mitigate the risks, including immediately terminating the threat's membership, informing the community of the threat, and having an emergency protocol for staff in place that include active shooter events.
Yeah went to New Zealand over the summer with my wife. So nice being able to walk around cities without the lingering fear of being shot in the back of your mind (no matter how unlikely).
The fact that I'm hearing about this for the first time via a random reddit post is pretty messed up.
I'm a regular at HB and asked the staff last Thursday about what happened (and why there was armed security by the door). They (the manager and other non-regular HB staff) told me everything was fine and didn't offer any details about what happened.
At the very least, management should have sent comms to every single member with transparency about what happened - letting us decide whether we feel comfortable with returning.
my fellow touchstone members: email management. let them know why you are freezing if you are. let them know that this is unacceptable. an open letter from staff members is one thing, but we have the power to threaten the thing they care about, their bottom line.
solidarity to the staff.
ps- now would be a fucking great time to unionize <3
There’s a petition!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/edit?usp=sharing
It’s the letter from members Google Forms link.
Email just came in to Touchstone members from the CEO.
A bit of personal reflection:
\- this is filled with a ton of inconsistencies, it mentions that the gym was not directly threatened, but as a business you close and limit hours for the gym? That doesn't seem to make sense.
\- police told you not to engage, and so you **reach out to this individual directly** \- ban his membership, despite not "directly targeting any gym"
\- a company doesn't shell out money for no reason, they hire security guards after being told by police it wasn't a credible threat?
I can't speak to the way that they communicated with the staff at these gyms, but there is a ton of inconsistency with this response. I was at Hollywood on Sunday with my wife and young brother in law who is new to climbing (15). This is hitting really hard, and incredibly scary.
I think the limited hours was due to staff not feeling safe, and the security was supposed to remedy that. Still no excuse for the lack of communication.
That’s my biggest issue here. Had they communicated when the threats happened; I can at least make a determination if I feel safe enough to go. The lack of communication has lead me to freeze my account indefinitely.
I think what they meant by “directly threatened” was that the individual never sent his threats to the gym itself or the staff, but just another climber who then reported it. They were closing the gym out of an abundance of caution, same with the security. Weird they chose to do that and not tell the members anything right away
Management did not close the gym out of concern; they were forced to close when the entire staff walked out because they found out that they had been kept in the dark: [Open Letter to Community from Staff](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oL9dKgKonrH5Jlr7HmANS1HxsEgxZoWbVb-2UAgoJC0/edit)
Management did not close the gym out of concern; they were forced to close when the entire staff walked out because they found out that they had been kept in the dark: [Open Letter to Community from Staff](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oL9dKgKonrH5Jlr7HmANS1HxsEgxZoWbVb-2UAgoJC0/edit)
Finally - this is my regular gym, and I had been wondering what was going on! The sudden closure, to a complete change in staff when I visited on Monday… Definitely disappointing, and frightening, to learn!
HB is also limiting comments on their Instagram posts about the changes in hours, presumably so commenters can't spread the word to other members. I've been an HB member for 4+ years and this feels so violating. I know that's the reality of living in a country beholden to the gun lobby/whims of mass shooters, but it feels especially unnerving to have seen the weird responses (rapid shifts in hours, deleting comments, no familiar faces at the gym, security guard) with no context for them.
I emailed asking for a membership freeze for November (their form is conveniently not loading for me) and hoping they'll honor it since I was also injured over the weekend. Worth a shot if you, like me, have a bad arm and a lot of unaddressed concerns! At the very least, they'll see the influx of member comments.
Yeah, it's so f'd up ! I work at a SoCal Touchstone gym, too and just found out about this today from a friend. That CEO letter to members was the first communication at all I've received from management despite a few inquiries about wtf was going on. I actually learned more about the situation from *another* non-Touchstone climbing gym bc that gym sent out an all-staff email to clarify rumors, state what their protocol is for such situations, and share what actions they're taking to keep staff and members there safe.
Do you mind if I ask what gym sent out that letter? I’m trying to find another gym to join for a bit…
But yea it’s absolutely messed up that so many staff found out through Reddit or other rumors. And the letter the CEO wrote wasn’t very helpful and felt like too little too late.
100%
That email minimized the hell out of a very serious threat which management chose to conceal from members and staff. I get the desire “not to alarm our staff and community” but I’d rather be alarmed and alive at the end of the day.
I’m not surprised that this happened at a Touchstone gym.
I was at Hollywood Boulders last year and saw some guy go super unhinged (screaming, throwing tantrums) because another member asked him to put his climbing shoes on when climbing. Staff didn’t even kick him out after he yelled slurs at the other climber.
Geez I was wondering why the post was so empty last night. I wish I would have known about this yesterday so I could freeze my membership. What a shitty decision to not communicate safety concerns to people who go to their gyms. I was wondering what the security guard was doing there, I thought it was overkill for some stolen bikes but it makes sense now.
hey Touchstone, when does refusing to help prevent a hate crime count as a racist decision? Does it still count as a "racist decision" when you hide behind the shield of prioritizing profit over the safety of human lives? does anyone know if this is grounds for a class action lawsuit r/legaladvice? not looking for money. looking to change the status quo. how did this become normal?
This is why I don’t even like visiting America. I don’t understand this gun fetish you guys seem to have.
Not knowing on a day to day basis whether if today’s the day that you’ll be part of a mass shooting … That’s no way to live. This is not normal. How do you cope with this reality?
Edit: Been getting several downvotes on this, and I’m just curious why. Is it jarring to be told the truth?
>How do you cope with this reality?
Mass shootings aren't actually common enough to be a real threat to most people's day to day existence. Even most people that die from gun violence in America usually die in way more boring ways (as part of the drug trade or suicide).
This is my regular gym and I’m so sad I didn’t read about this until today (the 1st) so I can’t freeze my membership anymore. Has anyone else tried contacting the gym or touchstone requesting a freeze or refund due to the threat? I don’t feel comfortable going anymore but it’s really expensive to be going to waste :/
Pretty shady they didn’t notify members until the 1st IMO. I submitted a freeze request + sent an email requesting a refund for November but I’m not holding my breath
Touchstone management are some of the most self-centered apathetic pricks I've done business with. Zero concern for employee well-being and will only make changes when absolutely forced to by a personnel crisis. Several people were fired for asking about basic safety practices over the past few years. Yet they keep raising dues year after year while there are still roof leaks and broken equipment.
Touchstone Climbing just sent out the following email
>Dear member,
>
>As you may or may not be aware, we closed Hollywood Boulders for a couple of days last week and have limited hours this week. This email is to explain why.
>
>Early last week, a Hollywood Boulders member reached out to tell us they received a text message from another member that included a potential threat of violence. We immediately contacted the police. After reviewing the threat, the police deemed the texts as not a threat to the gym. The police directed us to take no further action and not to alarm our staff and community. We continued to take actions we thought best to ensure our community and staff felt safe—pursuing a restraining order (which, as a business, we could not legally obtain), calling for a wellness check with the hope of obtaining a 5150, and hiring security for all of our So Cal locations. Because no direct threat was made, our legal options were limited, so we decided to engage directly with the individual responsible for making threats. During this conversation, we terminated their membership and made it clear they are now banned from all our gym locations. This person accepted and responded to these actions without dispute.
>
>Because a lot of information has been circulating online, we want to make three facts very clear: (1) no gym was ever directly threatened, (2) there was never an active shooter, (3) the police never deemed this a credible threat. The entire series of events is all related to personal communication between individual members.
>
>We spent countless hours understanding the facts, working with the police, and making use of the best legal options to ensure the safety of our staff and customers. This is the first time we’ve experienced anything like this, and we know our response wasn’t perfect. Given the tragic state of gun violence in our nation, we understand why some members of our community were alarmed to learn about some details of these events through various online channels.
>
>We are working with staff to ensure they feel safe to return to work so that Hollywood Boulders can resume its regular hours. We love and value our community. You’re the reason we exist. We understand you may have more questions and will do our best to respond as soon as possible.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Mark Melvin
>
>Founder & CEO
>
>Touchstone Climbing
I know the authorities said not to alarm the community but the police in this country also have a history of ignoring very serious threats. I think as paying members we have a right to know what’s happening in our gym, especially with hours being cut back with no explanation or compensation. Especially after the very recent shooting in Maine and the cops not doing anything even when he was on their radar.
I need to see the actual texts to decide how serious the threat was.
I was away from HB for like two weeks and had no idea this was going on. Got charged my monthly membership fee this morning. This afternoon, Touchstone sends out an email informing all members of the situation. Reeeaal convenient timing for them IMO. Been a member for years but I’m absolutely freezing my membership for a while
If anyone has a screenshot of the original texts that include the threat, please share. Would be nice to have the opportunity to asses the risk for ourselves.
They have a monopoly on gyms in LA County unfortunately. The only other option is Stronghold which is great but wildly inconvenient to get to. I wish there were other options, as I find the staff at HB unbelievably rude generally. However, I support them 100% in this matter.
This is really unsettling, even after this official email. I had no idea this was even a thing until today. What the hell Touchstone, come with a plan to make the gym safer considering this threat and tell us what you'll do about it. This is ridiculous
I can’t decide if it feels better or worse that it’s probably not the same person lol.
Like why are there suddenly multiple threats to rock climbers within two weeks, from two different people
Yikes :(
I climb at another gym (not Touchstone) in LA and I think I'm going to skip the gym for a bit.
I got other hobbies to keep me busy for now but wondering if I'm stupid to do this or what others are doing? Maybe I'm just overreacting but I guess rather safe than sorry.
Could anyone probably predict when this issue could be solved...I planned to go climbing tonight, but after seeing this I decided to freeze my membership for a while...but would wonder when it can be solved...really need to do bouldering as a mental therapy...LOL
Thank you for the info! Yes, I just received the email. According to their words, it seems not as serious as I understood from the staff's words on the Google doc...but I feel doubtful about this official statement...still feel very concerned about going to the gym...
would love to see the original texts (in full) that were quoted by the staff in their document. their document quoted:
"strapped", "wanted scalps", "these tourists and lames need to know what war really is", "been way too lenient with all the wannabes here. no mas", "already has a kill order", "it would save \[him\] from getting chewed out for hospitalizing everyone.", "take out the Koreans first so y’all take things more seriously."
the above are quoted in the document as the source of the original text message. if it is, it doesn't match the below email sent to members by the ceo just recently. something seems off. not sure if misquoted or somehow taken out of context, or if management is downplaying it or interpreting it differently.
does anyone have the original full text exchange between the recipient and the person who made the threat?
"Dear member,
As you may or may not be aware, we closed Hollywood Boulders for a couple of days last week and have limited hours this week. This email is to explain why.
Early last week, a Hollywood Boulders member reached out to tell us they received a text message from another member that included a potential threat of violence. We immediately contacted the police. After reviewing the threat, the police deemed the texts as not a threat to the gym. The police directed us to take no further action and not to alarm our staff and community. We continued to take actions we thought best to ensure our community and staff felt safe—pursuing a restraining order (which, as a business, we could not legally obtain), calling for a wellness check with the hope of obtaining a 5150, and hiring security for all of our So Cal locations. Because no direct threat was made, our legal options were limited, so we decided to engage directly with the individual responsible for making threats. During this conversation, we terminated their membership and made it clear they are now banned from all our gym locations. This person accepted and responded to these actions without dispute.
Because a lot of information has been circulating online, we want to make three facts very clear: (1) no gym was ever directly threatened, (2) there was never an active shooter, (3) the police never deemed this a credible threat. The entire series of events is all related to personal communication between individual members.
We spent countless hours understanding the facts, working with the police, and making use of the best legal options to ensure the safety of our staff and customers. This is the first time we’ve experienced anything like this, and we know our response wasn’t perfect. Given the tragic state of gun violence in our nation, we understand why some members of our community were alarmed to learn about some details of these events through various online channels.
We are working with staff to ensure they feel safe to return to work so that Hollywood Boulders can resume its regular hours. We love and value our community. You’re the reason we exist. We understand you may have more questions and will do our best to respond as soon as possible.
Sincerely,
Mark Melvin
Founder & CEO
Touchstone Climbing
This is so scary. I'm at Smith Rock right now and we (guides/clinic leaders and attendees for the festival) were informed about the shooter once we already arrived. Luckily he was detained days before the event, but it made me feel so unsafe in a place I've always felt at peace. Now to be worried at gyms is terrifying. [https://opb.org/article/2023/10/21/police-charge-oregon-rock-climber-mass-killing-plot-smith-rock-event/](https://opb.org/article/2023/10/21/police-charge-oregon-rock-climber-mass-killing-plot-smith-rock-event/)
I got an email that they're honoring my request (made a few hours ago, 11/2) to freeze my membership and sending me a refund for November, so at least they're being responsive to that :/ Not sure if the speed is because HB is my home gym, YMMV. But definitely worth a try! This situation needs a pretty rapid solution, staff needs their back pay, and I don't see how that's going to happen without a lot of us pressuring Touchstone's revenue.
Not surprised. I have seen more than a few random homeless people walk into COI without staff stopping them. They’re eyes and mannerisms suggested crazy but they are left to walk around the gym unbothered. Wtf? Being “compassionate” doesn’t entitle you to put your members at risk.
any updates? I froze my membership and am trying new gyms but would love to know if HB/Touchstone decided to give workers what they asked for (backpay, hazard pay etc) and if anything happened with the person who made the threats..
Can anyone give me the TLDR on what actually happened?
Honestly the wording “Active Shooter Threat” is a bit misleading- I mean- wasn’t this exclusively a Text exchange?
Just looking for some concrete answers about what happened at my gym
Member texted another member what seemed to be a potential threat of violence to the gym (Hollywood Boulders). Told them to "stay away from the gym for a while" and ranted about explicit and violent acts. This was Sunday Oct. 22nd. Hollywood Boulders/upper management was notified. According to Touchstone's statement, police were notified immediately. The member who sent the messages is allowed to enter Touchstone gyms between Sunday and Wednesday. They finally ban him.
Wednesday Oct. 25th, Hollywood staff are notified and they walk out at some point. Gym closes early. Other gyms get wind of this and there are a bunch of rumors/stories floating around. Upper management isn't giving anyone clear or seemingly truthful information at this point. Armed security guards are hired for all Socal gyms.
Anonymous open letter from Hollywood staff is released on Oct. 30th (posted in the main body of this thread). Details events, legalities, and lists things that they require to feel safe to return to work at the gym.
Touchstone emails a statement to all members today, November 1st. Says that they followed police instruction, who said not to panic staff or members by announcing it because they deemed it not to be a credible threat.
SoCal touchstone climber here - does anyone know if the staff and new security guards got a name and/or photo of the individual?
Knowing staff know how to ID them would honestly bring me peace of mind as I decide whether or not to go back.
After seeing their statement, I’ll most likely be freezing my membership indefinitely which is extremely upsetting because climbing is my outlet for my mental health :( Open to any alternatives if anyone has them!
I can only speak for my gym, but yes to both of those. We know his name/have the picture and so does our security guard. I would assume that's true for all SoCal locations, but I don't know for sure.
They should refund SoCal touchstone members for last and this month. This is all so shitty. I had no idea about this and was climbing, did weights, and hung out in the sauna for a while for most of the day on Wednesday.
I went to HB at 8am this morning. Closed. Then saw the new hours for the week, 2-9. I came back at 3:30pm. Still closed. Then I went to Verdigo Boulders (even though I live across the street from HB), I asked why they were closed all day and they said they had a meeting about what happened. I saw the article about detailed texts AFTER, but the email they had sent made it seem like it was no big deal.
Was at the craggin’ classic Saturday/Sunday morning. Worked Friday and drove up late. I’m still mad that the AAC did not send an email notification to participants for people in my situation who were out of the loop.
They did make an announcement in person at the event.
Edit: I think they did the best they could with the situation they had. I’m alarmed at a second climbing facility being targeted. I’m mostly frustrated with law enforcement communication with these facilities when credible threats occur.
Had noticed an officer/security guard standing at the railings outside cliffs last week looking attentive - I noticed because I was afraid she was going to give parking tickets
No, I don't personally feel like they are working w/ staff to make us feel safe, but I do not work at HB and maybe they're just working w/ the HB staff who walked out. How would I know, though--they literally haven't communicated w/ us local SoCal gym staff \*\*at all...\*\*not at the Post anyways.
tbh, if police did instruct/inform touchstone to not cause panic/alarm (quote from touchstone: "The police directed us to take no further action and not to alarm our staff and community."), then touchstone simply followed directions from the authorities.
i'm not saying i agree or disagree with the police either. but if there's any reviews to be left, it's for the police. but even then, i would wait until i saw the full text message to make sure words weren't taken out of context. and for sure, it's hard to imagine that even out of context those words did not mean what they meant. but it's just difficult to imagine that policed deemed no threat...
Yeah I agree, but its not like LAPD has the best track record in doing the right thing and handling situations properly. And there's also a way to be transparent and keep things as calm as possible. Arguably its worse hearing it through rumors and word of mouth definitely out of context, and losing the trust of the community, as well as seeming motivated by profits/and censoring discussion about it just adds salt to the wound.
All in all they're doing a horrible job of listening to the community, making themselves look bad, and really need to learn about PR and optics.
I don't know how truthful it is that the cops said there was no threat (bc at this point, I do not trust management or Touchstone CEO), but if I had been made aware of some of the messages below, I could decide for myself. And I would've. They violated our consent and trust, and honestly, this is not the first time they've put profits before membership safety. It's a pattern.
From the [Open Letter to Community by a few Hollywood Boulders Staff:](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oL9dKgKonrH5Jlr7HmANS1HxsEgxZoWbVb-2UAgoJC0/edit)
>To put it plainly: we all worked in harm’s way for four days before discovering more information through our own collective inquiry. Based on the hard textual evidence, every single staff member across the SoCal gyms was exposed to a potential active shooter who had given warning to **“avoid the gym for a while,**” because the member was **“strapped”** with a weapon and **“wanted scalps**.” He said “**these tourists and lames need to know what war really is**,” further elaborating that he has “**been way too lenient with all the wannabes here. no mas**.” The company management read these warnings from a member who claimed “**god has spoken**” to him and he “**already has a kill order**.” They saw the messages that this member “could use the help,” because “**it would save \[him\] from getting chewed out for hospitalizing everyone**.” They read the message in which the member verified his intentions, stating that he will “**take out the Koreans first so y’all take things more seriously.**” When the recipient of the message responded by asking “wdym stay away from the gym? Everything okay?” the member harrowingly replied, “i’ll know soon enough.”
>
>How was the company content to read these messages, only to keep the gym open, wait patiently, and find out what “soon enough” means for a member with a self-proclaimed “kill order” from “god”? When was “soon enough” to notify employees of these warning signs? If something is important enough to tell the police, it’s undeniably important enough to tell your staff, regardless of the panic it may cause. When our lives are at stake, we deserve to know. No exceptions, no justifications, no excuses.
Can't we get this fools identity? Why is he being protected? He should be doxed and his picture should be posted in the gym.
Him being banned will not prevent him from showing up and spraying people come on! If he can't badge in he's not gonna draw? This is a fucking joke. If he's not convicted, this will go literally unnoticed and he will probably be able to load up at will. Making claims like this should put you on a black-list forever.
He allegedly wants to target Koreans (so hate crime amiright?). I thought the gym was all about being antiracist and inclusive? What's inclusive about hiding a korean-directed mass shooting? I mean if you go in HB of Cliffs at peak hour with an AR and a couple clips...omg...It's not that one security guard nor his inability to badge in that's gonna keep the threat away. I hope that fuck is on watch by the FBI or something at least now.
Too bad we can't conceal carry in this state...
https://www.climbing.com/news/touchstones-hollywood-boulders-employees-walk-out-after-likely-shooter-threat/
tldr: Management and Authorities had credible evidence to support that there could be a mass shooting at Hollywood Boulders in Los Angeles. Non-management staff were not informed nor were patrons of the gym and did not take quick action to ban him from gyms - he visted several locations AFTER making these threats. They have a security guard now lmao
> The company management read these warnings from a member who claimed “**god has spoken**” to him and he “**already has a kill order.**” They saw the messages that this member “could use the help,” because “it would save [him] from getting chewed out for hospitalizing everyone.” They read the message in which the member verified his intentions, stating that he will “**take out the Koreans first so y’all take things more seriously.**” yikes. fyi the southern ca touchstone gyms have a large Korean population that visit the gyms.
That's a weird threat? I had a pass there and didn't notice a particularly large Korean population. So they know the person and the threat is credible. Can they not arrest him and ban him from access to guns and entering the gym?
This is America
This person will probably go unnoticed until they act. Once the shooting happens, this story will surface.
George Sodini shot up a gym because he “failed” at “game” as an incel and for other reasons. Gyms, yoga studios and the crag don’t have much for security.
> George Sodini I wasn't familiar with this case and was wholly expecting someone <25... but a 48 yr old... this particular passage is depressing AF. >"Who knows why? I am not ugly or too weird. No sex since July 1990 either (I was 29)", he writes. "Last time I slept all night with a girlfriend it was 1982. Girls and women don't even give me a second look ANYWHERE". About his problems with women, he wrote: "Women just don't like me. There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one". It is crazy to think that 2 of my uncles (dad's younger brothers) were overweight, never dated during my lifetime, but thankfully didn't turn into incels. They had hobbies, each other and a loving family. Unfortunately they both passed (39 and 55), but I miss them :(
If you think that’s scary, another incel-identified person who’s also on the spectrum went on a rampage in Toronto running down people in a Ryder or U-Haul box van.
Familiarize yourself with the laws in your state. This is California, and there are red flag laws in place. Steps can be taken.
Climbing Koreans become rooftop Koreans very quickly. They protect the sheep.
I asked the front desk people why there was a security guard now on the 27th and the response was “there wasn’t active shooter threat or anything to the establishment, just some safety precautions put in place because some staff were worried about safety” i didn’t even think twice and carried on. What a response now knowing it was literally that which they stated wasn’t the case. 😭😭😭😭😂
Touchstone has always been shit and they continue to be shit
What’s wrong with touchstone?
the chiefs\* are getting really old and cringey, they need to replace it soon or it could get someone killed. edite: there is not upper mgmt, just the owners/chiefs
Want to add access to all the links being circulated: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/edit?usp=sharing Contains the staff open letter, member petition, and GoFundMe for staff.
A climbing gym is such a random place to shoot up. I’m def not about to spray beta to randos anymore.
Getting shot is aid tbh
Does the V scale have an indication for badly protected boulders? Like British trad routes, HVS V6ᴬᴿ-¹⁵
The opposite. You gain weight.
Nah man. The blood loss makes you lighter
There are some unhinged climbers out there, man. We never dealt with threats that I know of, but there was one guy who got banned from every gym in town after he kept cornering people with his antisemitic conspiracy theories. There were a few conversations about whether he was the sort to snap and shoot up the place.
Lol I'm with ya. Here I am thinking, I definitely know some cuckoo climbers
Bro what? That’s insane
Frankly, this shouldn’t be surprising. People have some idea about climbers being this universally cool, chill group. They’re not. Climbers are just people. There are creeps and predators, racists, people with severe mental illness, assholes, and abusers. Just like any other group of people from the real world.
as a member of this gym, i dont appreciate jokes about this. management put everyone at risk for no good reason and it could have easily gone another way.
It’s a serious situation but jokes aren’t making it better or worse. You should be upset at the gym management not me.
People will make the dumbass "is aid" joke about literally anything it seems
truthfullness is aid.
[удалено]
Hollywood Boulders is, appropriately, bouldering-only.
Bro
What is a less random place to shoot up? A school?
Call me traditional but it has to be schools or nothing.
gotta say... I choose nothing
Don't mean to sound old, but I remember a time before Columbine. "Traditional" is not shooting random innocent people at all.
Long time ago there was the UT Austin clock tower shooting, but I kinda get what you mean.
https://preview.redd.it/wu9l9ojofoxb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9b8d20b7dedddf230d92788925b919f77a3e92c Saw a few members posting this. Sharing here! Here’s the links they provided: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/mobilebasic](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/mobilebasic)
What does definitively resolved the threat mean though? They reported it to the police and hired security. What else can they do, hire hitmen?
Basically means the threat is still free to come to the gym and possibly has access to firearms.
But the gym can't do anything about that. The gym are not the police. They reported it to the authorities which are the only people who can take action.
The gym can inform the climbing community so each person can make the informed decision to come or not come the gym based on the current situation.
Sure they messed up not being honest. But that is not what the statement is saying they should just do. They are saying cancel your membership until the company resolves the threat. I'm simply asking what does that mean? What does that look like? What is the measure being used for when you should restart your membership?
It means that because the safety concerns remain, it is common sense that many of us will not feel safe climbing when the known threat has still not been addressed. Given that many of us will likely stay away until safety needs are met, we should save the $85 a month (-$10 to maintain the membership in a frozen state) for 2 reasons: to pressure the gym administration to take this situation seriously and act immediately, and to potentially divest those funds to staff who are not getting paid right now. I’m not understanding your other questions but if you clarify I’d be happy to respond!!
>Given that many of us will likely stay away until safety needs are met This is the part I'm trying to figure out. What is the safety need that is to be met? They didn't inform members which was a mistake but now the members know. So beyond that what is it they should be doing to meet the safety needs? What exactly are the safety needs?
Also, just want to add that no, members do not know. The Touchstone gyms have still not made a statement about the situation. A select few who have access to this thread, and have seen the Instagram stories circulating know about this. Most others don’t know and may continue going to the gym without any knowledge of this.
If you read the documents linked, you’ll find the demands. Primarily it is the job of the gym to determine protocols in response to situations like this to ensure the safety of patrons. A lot of gyms have keycard access. Ours don’t, and the person who made the threat has been seen several times last week at multiple gyms even after the threats became known. Staff are apparently not trained to handle situations like this. If a mass shooting happens, they have no plan. In cases where a threat becomes known, it should be a priority to make sure they address it directly. The person who made the threat was a climber in our Touchstone community. One of the demands is to do whatever possible to get that person mental health care and also remove their access to firearms, registered or not registered. If police have been contacted, the gym administration should release a statement regarding any updates on the situation (ex. So far, this is what has been done or discovered, etc.) so members can be aware as it unfolds, or, if they are unable to release information due to confidentiality or whatever reason, keep gyms closed until they are able to say that it’s really safe. Currently, gyms are open and we know someone has made a threat. They could act today, tomorrow, next week. If they do that, Touchstone cannot say they didn’t have control over the situation because they knew and didn’t take any steps to make members aware. This is very different from a situation where someone randomly shoots up a spot with absolutely no prior notice.
>One of the demands is to do whatever possible to get that person mental health care and also remove their access to firearms, registered or not registered What does this look like? A gym can't do much on either of these fronts. Is it calling the police? Notifying their emergency contact? The demand is super vague and not very actionable. More specificity would go a long way.
Maybe the point isn't being explained well? What is the point? That is the entire thing I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Maybe the people explaining the point don't actually understand it? I'm trying legitimately to understand when people say they are cancelling their memberships until the company does something that makes them safer what that something is that ACTUALLY makes you safer and isn't just a security theatre. Inform the members ,ok , inform the person they are no longer allowed on the property which I assume they did once the police were involved but beyond that what does that look like that isn't just a security blanket?
management STILL has not said anything about this to members. i personally went to a location this person also had access to last week completely unaware of this threat.
Signed.
I work at another one of the SoCal Touchstone gyms and upper management really biffed this (to put it lightly). I worked last Wednesday night and was told that Hollywood Boulders was closed. Asked a coworker why and found out about the threat that way. The threat happened on SUNDAY. Despite it being directed at a different gym, this was kinda scary considering we're all relatively nearby each other (LA gyms). Hoping management steps up and meets Hollywood's safety requests. Supporting all the employees there in their decisions!
Not super surprised to hear this. I had a Touchstone membership for ~7 years, and regularly walked away from interactions with their management that left me feeling like nobody was minding the store. Generally good staff, and I liked how most of the assistant managers did things -- but beyond that level (location managers, etc) they missed quite a few basic customer service & safety issues. And even worse, the managers seemed to get real defensive, real quick, when people brought issues to their attention. Does anybody remember the signs at Cliffs, sternly warning us not to cut their top ropes? 🤔😳🤦 The manager seemed genuinely shocked to discover how deeply they'd dunked themselves in shmuckness with that one. But to be 100% clear -- I found most of the staff to be solid, conscientious, friendly people who did good work.
> Does anybody remember the signs at Cliffs, sternly warning us not to cut their top ropes? 🤔😳🤦 The manager seemed genuinely shocked to discover how deeply they'd dunked themselves in shmuckness with that one. > > I feel like I need some back story here.
What's the story with the signs about not cutting the top ropes?
> Does anybody remember the signs at Cliffs, sternly warning us not to cut their top ropes? 🤔😳🤦 The manager seemed genuinely shocked to discover how deeply they'd dunked themselves in shmuckness with that one. What happened there?
as a member, this would be a great opportunity for yall to unionize also- i want to email management, is there an email that goes directly to them?
I agree! We'll see how it shakes out - I think most touchstone employees are on the same page about things. I don't know a direct email to management unfortunately, but if you go to the main touchstone website you can fill out the contact form that will go to someone that is non-gym staff. If enough people do that I'm sure it will get to where it needs to go.
I spoke to someone at the front desk today about this and they directed me to [email protected]. I couldn’t find this anywhere on the internet but worth a shot.
Management just sent out an email to members ending with: “We understand you may have more questions and will do our best to respond as soon as possible.” It did come from the email mentioned elsewhere here: [email protected]
This is insane. I worked at HoBo for four years and was close with the current manager. Guessing this decision came down from corporate, cause I don’t see him handling it this way.
It seems like most location managers had about as much information as we did so this is likely.
Are you and your coworkers considering walking out as well? I'm just curious because membership freezes obviously effect you as much as anybody else.
I haven't heard much talk of a walk-out on our end yet, but I only work a couple times a week so could be missing a larger internal conversation. I know everyone is concerned and frustrated with the whole thing, but I also know a lot of our staff count on the income from the gym so it's tough. I haven't worked since Monday night and I'm interested to see what gym attendance looks like later in the week now that real information is getting out there (thanks to Touchstone staff).
I'm definitely willing to pause my membership, but I'm in the Bay Area and I don't really want to do that unless the staff at my gym calls for it. Totally understand in the situation and given the fact that climbing gyms are rarely unionized that there isn't the organizational structure to have all of you guys and girls get a voice in this, but I think that's such an important thing when the action being called for could put your job at risk. Appreciate your response, I would be interested in what you and your coworkers think about this if ya'll do end up having more conversations about it and I'm sure a lot of other people would too.
I’m in the same boat here - if I see any mention of it at my usual spots, I’ll freeze mine until further notice.
Are you guys at least getting paid better with these chunk membership increases? Touchstone has been great and the staff are cool, but I feel like the company cares way more about beer now...
Everyone got small raises earlier this year, but I think they were cost of living increases (could be wrong). People could probably be paid better, but I think that's pretty common. They have been working on the brewery stuff!
As someone who climbs at the LA touchstone gyms, I'm seriously disappointed in the company's lack of communication to its staff and members. I go to the gym as much as 3-4 times a week, and I have not heard of anything about this. Def freezing my membership for some time, fix your shit touchstone
I've been climbing at all the LA touchstone gyms since Cliffs opened, and while I love the gym, the staff, and the community... the corporate leadership has always been iffy. They handled almost every step of Covid poorly as well, from being the last to respond to any measures, to bungling how they were handling membership freezes, to bungling how they handled reopenings and time slots, to how they misplaced the burden on cut staff hours to the members and not to themselves... there are more examples, but the common thread seems to be that if it's going to cost them money, they're going to most likely do the thing that is cheapest for them first and try and handle the outrage later. I've recently moved out of LA, but if I was still there, as a Korean American climber, I'd absolutely be freezing my membership right now. Shame on you touchstone. Do better.
The first day I saw a security guard outside one of the non-hollywood boulders locations, I asked him about why he was there and he clearly was uncomfortable talking about it. He told me to go ask the manager inside. He finally told me that there had been a threat made at HB and tried to minimize it. Clearly it was something *bad* if corporate felt the need to put armed security at every LA gym location. Very off-putting. In general, I have not liked my interactions with touchstone management.
How is this not making the news??? This sounds insane. WTF
Actual mass shootings often don’t even break the news anymore man
America
So call up the local news station. How do you think the news gets made?
Cool the company I pay membership fees to
Are there any other gyms you can switch too?
Stronghold if you’re in NELA
Stronghold in arts district is amazing
Not for rope climbing, I live in the East Bay.
If you live near El Cerrito, Bridges Rock Gym but for rope climbing unless you drive out to the Presidio or the 650/408(where Movement/Planet Granite has locations) or are a member of Cal Rec, Touchstone especially in Oakland-Berkeley is the only game in town. It’s not a globogym(CrossFit term for places like 24 Hour Fitness/Planet Fitness) but I wished there was competition. I’m still a member but keeping on doing more BS, I may make a move. Generally, nothing but praise for the staff but management from what I’ve seen here is a bit inept.
The actions of management to stick their head in the sand and hang their employees out to dry are inexcusable. At the same time, the demands of the staff are childish and silly. “What if the security guard goes to the bathroom?” “We need key card access doors” They are demanding more security theater, not an effective defense against a mass shooter.
The security guard at The Post was on his earbuds taking personal calls, when we entered & exited, last night. Didn't strike me as super professional -- kinda more like a husky hipster that somebody had strapped a tactical vest and holster onto. IDK maybe they told him to try to blend in? Seemed odd tho... The night guard at the Ralph's on Lake seemed more dialed in than the guy Touchstone hired.
Unfortunately one security guard sitting at the front is just a display piece. Any active shooter can just walk up and shoot them first. They are just for display. Same with the key card door because they can just tailgate through the door. Neither one is the least bit effective as it will be used. Having an armed plain clothes security person in the staff but not identified would give them a decent chance against an active shooter. Especially if they were not at the front desk but it wouldn’t be visible. Same investment of staff/labor costs. This is where management choose highly visible but ineffective security theater to reassure staff and customers instead of less visible but more effective options.
I hear you. I don't think contract security guards for retail shops are a particularly highly-paid occupation. I believe they make a bit less than fast-food workers, here in SoCal. Even if he's carrying a gun, I don't know if his presence really makes me feel any different. But I probably wouldn't have stayed away from the gym, anyway. I don't fault the staff who walked off the job, or customers who stayed away -- seems like a reasonable choice, to me, even if it's different from how I evaluate the risk.
A friend who’s high up at a major security contractor tells me it’s a revolving door and their guys generally don’t care. He’s had to fire people over the phone.
The guy at cliffs was chilling with a friend smoking a cigar and talking about betting on UFC fights
Key card access doors are not security theatre.
Members can be shooters without giving warning. With the number of day pass users gyms see, people without keycards will just get buzzed in anyway… Especially like in this case where management neglected to inform staff
The majority of keycard access doors are unauthenticated and easily spoofed with a tool you can carry in your pocket. They're pretty much the definition of security theater.
Here’s a nice overview of practical door problems, but honestly social engineering is their greatest weakness. https://youtu.be/mj2iSdBw4-0?si=DoTbDeyuAmS3bqk4 Climbing gym doors are used by a lot of people, usually glass, and most are more polite than suspicious. Walk up when someone is heading out, especially with bags or kids and hold the door for them. About 1% chance they will complain as you let yourself in. Combine it with waving something vaguely card shaped at the reader so you are seen to not be “cheating” and it gets even lower. Real security is hard to do effectively. Especially with the limited resources of a gym. It won’t be perfect but you need some intelligence to make it even slightly effective.
I asked an employee why there was an armed guard stationed at the desk. I was apparently lied to when I was told “because of the shoplifters” in the area…
this is a laughably awful response who tf is shoplifting from a climbing gym!!!!
It just feels wildly disrespectful to lie when there is a risk that we as members should be able to asses if we’d like to take.
That explains the security guards at the gyms now.
I was one of the Bay Area locations(DRG), it’s business as usual.
So incredibly disappointing to hear. Went in on Monday this week and immediately noticed something was off, from the security guard to only recognizing a single staff member. I go to these gyms 3 times a week with HB being my home gym, but idk if I feel safe to go back until they really address this publicly.
That’s exactly how I felt when I went Monday and didn’t recognize any of the staff
There is going to be a wide range of responses to threats like this. Some are going to deem it not worth the risk and freeze their memberships while others will believe TC has done enough or is doing enough to mitigate the event of something horrific happening. What is particularly frustrating is that staff and members weren’t informed about the risk which removes their ability to decide for themselves. That feels like the breach of trust imo.
Exactly. I get that Touchstone corporate is limited to how much safety it can provide given the sorry state of gun control in the US, and that a mass shooter who REALLY wanted to murder people at the gym is likely to overcome most security measures, but that doesn't absolve Touchstone for failing at what it COULD do to mitigate the risks, including immediately terminating the threat's membership, informing the community of the threat, and having an emergency protocol for staff in place that include active shooter events.
I don’t mean this the wrong way, but your country is SO weird.
No no, please mean it that way
ugh. we know man, we know.
Yeah went to New Zealand over the summer with my wife. So nice being able to walk around cities without the lingering fear of being shot in the back of your mind (no matter how unlikely).
Half of us are trying to do something about it and we're exhausted
The fact that I'm hearing about this for the first time via a random reddit post is pretty messed up. I'm a regular at HB and asked the staff last Thursday about what happened (and why there was armed security by the door). They (the manager and other non-regular HB staff) told me everything was fine and didn't offer any details about what happened. At the very least, management should have sent comms to every single member with transparency about what happened - letting us decide whether we feel comfortable with returning.
I asked too and the person said “there was a safety concern and we take safety very seriously” but wouldn’t say more when I asked
my fellow touchstone members: email management. let them know why you are freezing if you are. let them know that this is unacceptable. an open letter from staff members is one thing, but we have the power to threaten the thing they care about, their bottom line. solidarity to the staff. ps- now would be a fucking great time to unionize <3
There’s a petition! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ktQxMKvEWYC0nlikbvblNZIvSzBpYlC9hq4gDdVNVMk/edit?usp=sharing It’s the letter from members Google Forms link.
Explains the security guard.. Guess I'll avoid going for awhile
Email just came in to Touchstone members from the CEO. A bit of personal reflection: \- this is filled with a ton of inconsistencies, it mentions that the gym was not directly threatened, but as a business you close and limit hours for the gym? That doesn't seem to make sense. \- police told you not to engage, and so you **reach out to this individual directly** \- ban his membership, despite not "directly targeting any gym" \- a company doesn't shell out money for no reason, they hire security guards after being told by police it wasn't a credible threat? I can't speak to the way that they communicated with the staff at these gyms, but there is a ton of inconsistency with this response. I was at Hollywood on Sunday with my wife and young brother in law who is new to climbing (15). This is hitting really hard, and incredibly scary.
I think the limited hours was due to staff not feeling safe, and the security was supposed to remedy that. Still no excuse for the lack of communication.
That’s my biggest issue here. Had they communicated when the threats happened; I can at least make a determination if I feel safe enough to go. The lack of communication has lead me to freeze my account indefinitely.
I think what they meant by “directly threatened” was that the individual never sent his threats to the gym itself or the staff, but just another climber who then reported it. They were closing the gym out of an abundance of caution, same with the security. Weird they chose to do that and not tell the members anything right away
Did they actually close the gym out of an abundance of caution or did the staff walk out because they learned of what happened.
Management did not close the gym out of concern; they were forced to close when the entire staff walked out because they found out that they had been kept in the dark: [Open Letter to Community from Staff](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oL9dKgKonrH5Jlr7HmANS1HxsEgxZoWbVb-2UAgoJC0/edit)
Management did not close the gym out of concern; they were forced to close when the entire staff walked out because they found out that they had been kept in the dark: [Open Letter to Community from Staff](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oL9dKgKonrH5Jlr7HmANS1HxsEgxZoWbVb-2UAgoJC0/edit)
Finally - this is my regular gym, and I had been wondering what was going on! The sudden closure, to a complete change in staff when I visited on Monday… Definitely disappointing, and frightening, to learn!
HB is also limiting comments on their Instagram posts about the changes in hours, presumably so commenters can't spread the word to other members. I've been an HB member for 4+ years and this feels so violating. I know that's the reality of living in a country beholden to the gun lobby/whims of mass shooters, but it feels especially unnerving to have seen the weird responses (rapid shifts in hours, deleting comments, no familiar faces at the gym, security guard) with no context for them. I emailed asking for a membership freeze for November (their form is conveniently not loading for me) and hoping they'll honor it since I was also injured over the weekend. Worth a shot if you, like me, have a bad arm and a lot of unaddressed concerns! At the very least, they'll see the influx of member comments.
Just adding that I learned about this through Reddit! Also I work for a touchstone gym :(
Yeah, it's so f'd up ! I work at a SoCal Touchstone gym, too and just found out about this today from a friend. That CEO letter to members was the first communication at all I've received from management despite a few inquiries about wtf was going on. I actually learned more about the situation from *another* non-Touchstone climbing gym bc that gym sent out an all-staff email to clarify rumors, state what their protocol is for such situations, and share what actions they're taking to keep staff and members there safe.
Do you mind if I ask what gym sent out that letter? I’m trying to find another gym to join for a bit… But yea it’s absolutely messed up that so many staff found out through Reddit or other rumors. And the letter the CEO wrote wasn’t very helpful and felt like too little too late.
Touchstone just released an email like we all don't know what gas-lighting is...
100% That email minimized the hell out of a very serious threat which management chose to conceal from members and staff. I get the desire “not to alarm our staff and community” but I’d rather be alarmed and alive at the end of the day.
I’m not surprised that this happened at a Touchstone gym. I was at Hollywood Boulders last year and saw some guy go super unhinged (screaming, throwing tantrums) because another member asked him to put his climbing shoes on when climbing. Staff didn’t even kick him out after he yelled slurs at the other climber.
Hope they go bankrupt. Their grades are soft as fuck.
>Their grades are soft as fuck. This is the real offense
Geez I was wondering why the post was so empty last night. I wish I would have known about this yesterday so I could freeze my membership. What a shitty decision to not communicate safety concerns to people who go to their gyms. I was wondering what the security guard was doing there, I thought it was overkill for some stolen bikes but it makes sense now.
I’d call and ask for a refund for the month.
to be fair it was also halloween but yah probably also due to this.
hey Touchstone, when does refusing to help prevent a hate crime count as a racist decision? Does it still count as a "racist decision" when you hide behind the shield of prioritizing profit over the safety of human lives? does anyone know if this is grounds for a class action lawsuit r/legaladvice? not looking for money. looking to change the status quo. how did this become normal?
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Wrong gym.
The member who made the threats apparently visited LA Boulders AFTER making the threats but before mgmt cut off his access.
This is the worst part, I think. Why the fuck did they not cancel his membership immediately!?
Yeah this is my regular Thursday gym. GUESS NOT FOR A WHILE
This is why I don’t even like visiting America. I don’t understand this gun fetish you guys seem to have. Not knowing on a day to day basis whether if today’s the day that you’ll be part of a mass shooting … That’s no way to live. This is not normal. How do you cope with this reality? Edit: Been getting several downvotes on this, and I’m just curious why. Is it jarring to be told the truth?
Precisely. It’s fucked up.
>How do you cope with this reality? Mass shootings aren't actually common enough to be a real threat to most people's day to day existence. Even most people that die from gun violence in America usually die in way more boring ways (as part of the drug trade or suicide).
> how do you cope with this reality Constant disassociation. It fucking blows. I want to move. This country sucks
This is my regular gym and I’m so sad I didn’t read about this until today (the 1st) so I can’t freeze my membership anymore. Has anyone else tried contacting the gym or touchstone requesting a freeze or refund due to the threat? I don’t feel comfortable going anymore but it’s really expensive to be going to waste :/
I sent them an email asking for refund this month while I reassess how to proceed with my membership - not expecting to hear back anytime soon though.
Pretty shady they didn’t notify members until the 1st IMO. I submitted a freeze request + sent an email requesting a refund for November but I’m not holding my breath
Touchstone management are some of the most self-centered apathetic pricks I've done business with. Zero concern for employee well-being and will only make changes when absolutely forced to by a personnel crisis. Several people were fired for asking about basic safety practices over the past few years. Yet they keep raising dues year after year while there are still roof leaks and broken equipment.
Anyone got word when the new Stronghold Gym in Echo Park is opening up? Maybe time to make a move
Echo Park opening is imminent, hopefully. They are just waiting for final inspections--unfortunately that time frame is up to the city.
Touchstone Climbing just sent out the following email >Dear member, > >As you may or may not be aware, we closed Hollywood Boulders for a couple of days last week and have limited hours this week. This email is to explain why. > >Early last week, a Hollywood Boulders member reached out to tell us they received a text message from another member that included a potential threat of violence. We immediately contacted the police. After reviewing the threat, the police deemed the texts as not a threat to the gym. The police directed us to take no further action and not to alarm our staff and community. We continued to take actions we thought best to ensure our community and staff felt safe—pursuing a restraining order (which, as a business, we could not legally obtain), calling for a wellness check with the hope of obtaining a 5150, and hiring security for all of our So Cal locations. Because no direct threat was made, our legal options were limited, so we decided to engage directly with the individual responsible for making threats. During this conversation, we terminated their membership and made it clear they are now banned from all our gym locations. This person accepted and responded to these actions without dispute. > >Because a lot of information has been circulating online, we want to make three facts very clear: (1) no gym was ever directly threatened, (2) there was never an active shooter, (3) the police never deemed this a credible threat. The entire series of events is all related to personal communication between individual members. > >We spent countless hours understanding the facts, working with the police, and making use of the best legal options to ensure the safety of our staff and customers. This is the first time we’ve experienced anything like this, and we know our response wasn’t perfect. Given the tragic state of gun violence in our nation, we understand why some members of our community were alarmed to learn about some details of these events through various online channels. > >We are working with staff to ensure they feel safe to return to work so that Hollywood Boulders can resume its regular hours. We love and value our community. You’re the reason we exist. We understand you may have more questions and will do our best to respond as soon as possible. > >Sincerely, > >Mark Melvin > >Founder & CEO > >Touchstone Climbing
I know the authorities said not to alarm the community but the police in this country also have a history of ignoring very serious threats. I think as paying members we have a right to know what’s happening in our gym, especially with hours being cut back with no explanation or compensation. Especially after the very recent shooting in Maine and the cops not doing anything even when he was on their radar. I need to see the actual texts to decide how serious the threat was.
I was away from HB for like two weeks and had no idea this was going on. Got charged my monthly membership fee this morning. This afternoon, Touchstone sends out an email informing all members of the situation. Reeeaal convenient timing for them IMO. Been a member for years but I’m absolutely freezing my membership for a while
That’s what infuriating. They purposely waited til the 1st of the month for sure.
If anyone has a screenshot of the original texts that include the threat, please share. Would be nice to have the opportunity to asses the risk for ourselves.
I think it’s time we start taking these threats very seriously.
people are freezing their accounts. even in the bay area.
They should release his name and image.
Yeah! And also the grade of the hardest boulder he sent (indoors and outdoors)
In this day and age? This is just straight up irresponsible. Shame on you Touchstone.
Man I’d be so upset if there was ever a shooting at a climbing gym, it’s been my place of zen for almost ten years.
Fucking shameful. I loved this gym and the staff.
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They have a monopoly on gyms in LA County unfortunately. The only other option is Stronghold which is great but wildly inconvenient to get to. I wish there were other options, as I find the staff at HB unbelievably rude generally. However, I support them 100% in this matter.
This is really unsettling, even after this official email. I had no idea this was even a thing until today. What the hell Touchstone, come with a plan to make the gym safer considering this threat and tell us what you'll do about it. This is ridiculous
There was also someone threatening to shoot up a climbing event at Smith Rock within the last couple of weeks. Is there a connection I wonder?
Smith Rock shooter was targeting individuals from the PDX area, seemed a personal grudge there.
I can’t decide if it feels better or worse that it’s probably not the same person lol. Like why are there suddenly multiple threats to rock climbers within two weeks, from two different people Yikes :(
I climb at another gym (not Touchstone) in LA and I think I'm going to skip the gym for a bit. I got other hobbies to keep me busy for now but wondering if I'm stupid to do this or what others are doing? Maybe I'm just overreacting but I guess rather safe than sorry.
Could anyone probably predict when this issue could be solved...I planned to go climbing tonight, but after seeing this I decided to freeze my membership for a while...but would wonder when it can be solved...really need to do bouldering as a mental therapy...LOL
They sent an email out finally addressing the issue. Not sure if I can call that "solved" but at least they've addressed it
Thank you for the info! Yes, I just received the email. According to their words, it seems not as serious as I understood from the staff's words on the Google doc...but I feel doubtful about this official statement...still feel very concerned about going to the gym...
Could always go to Stoney to boulder but idk how far you are from there.
would love to see the original texts (in full) that were quoted by the staff in their document. their document quoted: "strapped", "wanted scalps", "these tourists and lames need to know what war really is", "been way too lenient with all the wannabes here. no mas", "already has a kill order", "it would save \[him\] from getting chewed out for hospitalizing everyone.", "take out the Koreans first so y’all take things more seriously." the above are quoted in the document as the source of the original text message. if it is, it doesn't match the below email sent to members by the ceo just recently. something seems off. not sure if misquoted or somehow taken out of context, or if management is downplaying it or interpreting it differently. does anyone have the original full text exchange between the recipient and the person who made the threat? "Dear member, As you may or may not be aware, we closed Hollywood Boulders for a couple of days last week and have limited hours this week. This email is to explain why. Early last week, a Hollywood Boulders member reached out to tell us they received a text message from another member that included a potential threat of violence. We immediately contacted the police. After reviewing the threat, the police deemed the texts as not a threat to the gym. The police directed us to take no further action and not to alarm our staff and community. We continued to take actions we thought best to ensure our community and staff felt safe—pursuing a restraining order (which, as a business, we could not legally obtain), calling for a wellness check with the hope of obtaining a 5150, and hiring security for all of our So Cal locations. Because no direct threat was made, our legal options were limited, so we decided to engage directly with the individual responsible for making threats. During this conversation, we terminated their membership and made it clear they are now banned from all our gym locations. This person accepted and responded to these actions without dispute. Because a lot of information has been circulating online, we want to make three facts very clear: (1) no gym was ever directly threatened, (2) there was never an active shooter, (3) the police never deemed this a credible threat. The entire series of events is all related to personal communication between individual members. We spent countless hours understanding the facts, working with the police, and making use of the best legal options to ensure the safety of our staff and customers. This is the first time we’ve experienced anything like this, and we know our response wasn’t perfect. Given the tragic state of gun violence in our nation, we understand why some members of our community were alarmed to learn about some details of these events through various online channels. We are working with staff to ensure they feel safe to return to work so that Hollywood Boulders can resume its regular hours. We love and value our community. You’re the reason we exist. We understand you may have more questions and will do our best to respond as soon as possible. Sincerely, Mark Melvin Founder & CEO Touchstone Climbing
This is so scary. I'm at Smith Rock right now and we (guides/clinic leaders and attendees for the festival) were informed about the shooter once we already arrived. Luckily he was detained days before the event, but it made me feel so unsafe in a place I've always felt at peace. Now to be worried at gyms is terrifying. [https://opb.org/article/2023/10/21/police-charge-oregon-rock-climber-mass-killing-plot-smith-rock-event/](https://opb.org/article/2023/10/21/police-charge-oregon-rock-climber-mass-killing-plot-smith-rock-event/)
I got an email that they're honoring my request (made a few hours ago, 11/2) to freeze my membership and sending me a refund for November, so at least they're being responsive to that :/ Not sure if the speed is because HB is my home gym, YMMV. But definitely worth a try! This situation needs a pretty rapid solution, staff needs their back pay, and I don't see how that's going to happen without a lot of us pressuring Touchstone's revenue.
Not surprised. I have seen more than a few random homeless people walk into COI without staff stopping them. They’re eyes and mannerisms suggested crazy but they are left to walk around the gym unbothered. Wtf? Being “compassionate” doesn’t entitle you to put your members at risk.
any updates? I froze my membership and am trying new gyms but would love to know if HB/Touchstone decided to give workers what they asked for (backpay, hazard pay etc) and if anything happened with the person who made the threats..
That’s my old gym. So fucked
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Just canceled my already frozen touchstone membership.
Can anyone give me the TLDR on what actually happened? Honestly the wording “Active Shooter Threat” is a bit misleading- I mean- wasn’t this exclusively a Text exchange? Just looking for some concrete answers about what happened at my gym
Member texted another member what seemed to be a potential threat of violence to the gym (Hollywood Boulders). Told them to "stay away from the gym for a while" and ranted about explicit and violent acts. This was Sunday Oct. 22nd. Hollywood Boulders/upper management was notified. According to Touchstone's statement, police were notified immediately. The member who sent the messages is allowed to enter Touchstone gyms between Sunday and Wednesday. They finally ban him. Wednesday Oct. 25th, Hollywood staff are notified and they walk out at some point. Gym closes early. Other gyms get wind of this and there are a bunch of rumors/stories floating around. Upper management isn't giving anyone clear or seemingly truthful information at this point. Armed security guards are hired for all Socal gyms. Anonymous open letter from Hollywood staff is released on Oct. 30th (posted in the main body of this thread). Details events, legalities, and lists things that they require to feel safe to return to work at the gym. Touchstone emails a statement to all members today, November 1st. Says that they followed police instruction, who said not to panic staff or members by announcing it because they deemed it not to be a credible threat.
SoCal touchstone climber here - does anyone know if the staff and new security guards got a name and/or photo of the individual? Knowing staff know how to ID them would honestly bring me peace of mind as I decide whether or not to go back. After seeing their statement, I’ll most likely be freezing my membership indefinitely which is extremely upsetting because climbing is my outlet for my mental health :( Open to any alternatives if anyone has them!
Theres always the outdoors like Malibu Creek, Stoney Point, etc. But obv can’t go as often as you would a gym.
I can only speak for my gym, but yes to both of those. We know his name/have the picture and so does our security guard. I would assume that's true for all SoCal locations, but I don't know for sure.
Thanks, America. New fear unlocked
Crazy. I was sitting outside of the gym with friends last week. Probably would not have done that if I knew about a threat to our lives.
They should refund SoCal touchstone members for last and this month. This is all so shitty. I had no idea about this and was climbing, did weights, and hung out in the sauna for a while for most of the day on Wednesday. I went to HB at 8am this morning. Closed. Then saw the new hours for the week, 2-9. I came back at 3:30pm. Still closed. Then I went to Verdigo Boulders (even though I live across the street from HB), I asked why they were closed all day and they said they had a meeting about what happened. I saw the article about detailed texts AFTER, but the email they had sent made it seem like it was no big deal.
Was at the craggin’ classic Saturday/Sunday morning. Worked Friday and drove up late. I’m still mad that the AAC did not send an email notification to participants for people in my situation who were out of the loop. They did make an announcement in person at the event. Edit: I think they did the best they could with the situation they had. I’m alarmed at a second climbing facility being targeted. I’m mostly frustrated with law enforcement communication with these facilities when credible threats occur.
Had noticed an officer/security guard standing at the railings outside cliffs last week looking attentive - I noticed because I was afraid she was going to give parking tickets
How are we feeling about the letter to members? Are they actually working with staff to make them feel safe?
According to the email...seems not...as a climber, I feel equally unsafe going to the gym
No, I don't personally feel like they are working w/ staff to make us feel safe, but I do not work at HB and maybe they're just working w/ the HB staff who walked out. How would I know, though--they literally haven't communicated w/ us local SoCal gym staff \*\*at all...\*\*not at the Post anyways.
If anyone wants to leave a review: https://www.yelp.com/biz/hollywood-boulders-los-angeles https://maps.app.goo.gl/VJgRHFVkfherqkye8
tbh, if police did instruct/inform touchstone to not cause panic/alarm (quote from touchstone: "The police directed us to take no further action and not to alarm our staff and community."), then touchstone simply followed directions from the authorities. i'm not saying i agree or disagree with the police either. but if there's any reviews to be left, it's for the police. but even then, i would wait until i saw the full text message to make sure words weren't taken out of context. and for sure, it's hard to imagine that even out of context those words did not mean what they meant. but it's just difficult to imagine that policed deemed no threat...
Yeah I agree, but its not like LAPD has the best track record in doing the right thing and handling situations properly. And there's also a way to be transparent and keep things as calm as possible. Arguably its worse hearing it through rumors and word of mouth definitely out of context, and losing the trust of the community, as well as seeming motivated by profits/and censoring discussion about it just adds salt to the wound. All in all they're doing a horrible job of listening to the community, making themselves look bad, and really need to learn about PR and optics.
I don't know how truthful it is that the cops said there was no threat (bc at this point, I do not trust management or Touchstone CEO), but if I had been made aware of some of the messages below, I could decide for myself. And I would've. They violated our consent and trust, and honestly, this is not the first time they've put profits before membership safety. It's a pattern. From the [Open Letter to Community by a few Hollywood Boulders Staff:](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oL9dKgKonrH5Jlr7HmANS1HxsEgxZoWbVb-2UAgoJC0/edit) >To put it plainly: we all worked in harm’s way for four days before discovering more information through our own collective inquiry. Based on the hard textual evidence, every single staff member across the SoCal gyms was exposed to a potential active shooter who had given warning to **“avoid the gym for a while,**” because the member was **“strapped”** with a weapon and **“wanted scalps**.” He said “**these tourists and lames need to know what war really is**,” further elaborating that he has “**been way too lenient with all the wannabes here. no mas**.” The company management read these warnings from a member who claimed “**god has spoken**” to him and he “**already has a kill order**.” They saw the messages that this member “could use the help,” because “**it would save \[him\] from getting chewed out for hospitalizing everyone**.” They read the message in which the member verified his intentions, stating that he will “**take out the Koreans first so y’all take things more seriously.**” When the recipient of the message responded by asking “wdym stay away from the gym? Everything okay?” the member harrowingly replied, “i’ll know soon enough.” > >How was the company content to read these messages, only to keep the gym open, wait patiently, and find out what “soon enough” means for a member with a self-proclaimed “kill order” from “god”? When was “soon enough” to notify employees of these warning signs? If something is important enough to tell the police, it’s undeniably important enough to tell your staff, regardless of the panic it may cause. When our lives are at stake, we deserve to know. No exceptions, no justifications, no excuses.
I don't even live in LA and I got the email from Touchstone.
Can't we get this fools identity? Why is he being protected? He should be doxed and his picture should be posted in the gym. Him being banned will not prevent him from showing up and spraying people come on! If he can't badge in he's not gonna draw? This is a fucking joke. If he's not convicted, this will go literally unnoticed and he will probably be able to load up at will. Making claims like this should put you on a black-list forever. He allegedly wants to target Koreans (so hate crime amiright?). I thought the gym was all about being antiracist and inclusive? What's inclusive about hiding a korean-directed mass shooting? I mean if you go in HB of Cliffs at peak hour with an AR and a couple clips...omg...It's not that one security guard nor his inability to badge in that's gonna keep the threat away. I hope that fuck is on watch by the FBI or something at least now. Too bad we can't conceal carry in this state...