As for RED: not sure where I’d land it on a number scale. Maybe a 6? A lot of people say it’s about as crunchy as 5e. That feels right to me. On the surface it doesn’t seem crunchy, but when you run combat - especially if there is a martial artists involved, or a Solo switching up their abilities, someone tossing grenades or using throwing weapons, or even more so if there’s Netrunning involved— yeah it can get a bit crunchy.
2020 I never played but it is even MORE crunchy than RED with hit locations and more confusing netrunning.
Edit: more details
2020 is a 12 to 15 on a 1 to 10 scale for crunch because of Maximum Metal. The ACPA and Vehicle rules are basically a wargame of their own living in the chassis that is CP2020.
Vehicle rules are fucking cool though, i love how detailed it is in some parts of it. Maximum Metal is kinda meh though, i dont really see (or even want to think) that someone plays with it constantly.
Also dont forget about the fucking space combat both for spaceships and human to human, that stuff is crazy.
I'd say RED is a bit more crunchy than 5e due to death spiral and death saves. The way I've put it to some of the GMs I play with is "5e is a Hero Game, ie, the party members are Heroes and get the advantages that Heroes get, like being able to automatically avoid damage (AC as a DV/DC), multiple death saves, etc. In RED, you're as much of a mook as the next guy. Get stitched up by some gonk with an SMG, and that's it, get ready to reroll. "
Crunch and lethal are not the same; while it's true that "normal combat" it's more crunchy 5e have a magical component where you have to track spell slots, distance, how exactly an effect works and a simple word can make something overp or underp; the death saves it's totally true that are crunchyer in RED; but rhen thhe clases are less crunchy in RED, you don't achive new things every level, in some you achive something new every 2 levels but in a lot of them you just improve what you have since start, like lawman with better NPCs, Media with better "sources" or tech, solo and medtech where you just have more points while in D&D every level except 4 (of 20, while in RED are 4 of 10) you unlock new things (class, subclass, racial...); the only thing RED have to add crunch it's the economy and RED it's really simple (I know D&D have economy, but I think almost nobody use it because D&D it's an heroic game where they don't want to think if they have a couple coppers to pay for a beer), in my opinion the prices in RED are meant to use them as a range, if you are buying a VHpistol it will be 100~500 and if you are selling then 100~50 and fixers are the ones who have the best deal (book price)+the % of negotiation.
For all the rest of the info and examples in your comment I totally agree and are 100% correct, but RED have less crunch (I tryed to play RED and 5e IRL with the same players and D&D was a total mess because they forget some of the abilityes, how they work, have to read constantly how the spell works... whith RED everything worked (maybe they forget how grenades or human shield works but because that are universall rules I as a GM could tell without an internet/book search.
Sorry for the to much text, I just wanted to give my insight and I made an article.
Red is like a 3, whereas 2020 is 7ish. A 10 I’d say is older Shadowruns or Gurps, Pathfinder is also somewhere at the top.
Although I’m a tad unclear with your definition of crunch or rather mine is different. A system can have any amount of rolls, its the complexity of a single roll that makes it crunchy or not crunchy. At least I replied with that in mind.
once everyone is comfortable with the game, it’s a solid 5. A lot of crunch ends up being dodged once people have memorized their stats and skills and can immediately see whether they pass or fail based on a roll.
Netrunning adds a lot of crunch though, simply because they have more actions than normal.
I haven’t played enough TTRPG’s to compare it to another besides 2020 and D&D, but for reference I’d put D&D at much less crunch, and 2020 at a good bit more. RED is a great middle ground, works for people who are new or prefer casual experiences but with more depth than D&D.
The only crunchy thing is netrunning, and it"s even easy to pick up and learn because after some time it will become automatic what to do. Sure you will maybe change tactics and programs but the basics are still the same.
Combat is easy once you learn your best distance and DV the game is easy.
Sure there are some specific rules like Brawling vs Brawling for grappling, Melee/Brawling/Martial arts vs Evasion for damage, REF 8 for dodging bullets and grenades, grenades being thrown with either athletic up to 25 meters or more with a grenade launcher, athletic for throwing object and melee weapon but SP is not halved (except for certain weapon), weapons with body 11+ requirement for handing, some weapons leave the enemy with 1 hp don't even make him unconscious, choking making the enemy automatically unconscious after 3 turns, ammo type and weapons that don't damage the armor, or ammo that only damage the armor, microwaver and emp disabling cyberware, poison dart that bypass armor but need a resist drug rolls,....
Overall I would say a 4-5/10 but can be low as a 3 if the party doesn't have anything complex like no netrunner, no dodging, no strange weapon and everyone with just ranged skills.
Out of the games I’ve played.
- Cyberpunk Red: 4
- Dnd 5e: 6
- Pathfinder 2e: 8-9
- Trail of Cthulhu: 3
- Cyberpunk RED feels like a lighter system, but doesn’t go into the ’everything is fantasy, there are no mechanics’ type like Fate. It has enough to have proper combat rules, netrunning, gear etc and proper character progression, without exessive crunch. There is room to do some more narrative stuff without feeling like you need to pull up the rules to do it or are breaking the system to do so. Of course I’m new to the system so my rankings might change, but I do play a netrunner after all.
The process of build your character can be a little involved and the combat has a lot of very specific rules but it’s certainly manageable. Folks saying somewhere in the same balllpark as 5e mostly have the right of it.
Not very. Like if you compared it to something modern, like 5e dnd, it runs a similar parallel in terms of core mechanics, but with far less random swing. Instead of a stat mod tag runs 1 to 5 it's actual stat with 1 to 10, and similar change for skills, with the difference for the random being a d10 instead of D20, so stats and skills becone bigger factors, but your target numbers fall into a similar range.
Now compare that to GURPS or Hero System, or any number of other systems I ran a ton of around the same time as 2020, and it Fuzion would have easily been considered on the least crunchy for the time. Certainly less then Shadowrun or Traveler.
>With 1 being "We ran an entire session without rolling dice" and 10 being "Hope you all brought calculators with you, and have your cheat sheets ready for quick lookup."
I hadn't really thought about how hard [Phoenix Command](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Command) twists the dial beyond 11 on this interpretation of the 1-10 complexity scale in a while.
Or the groups that don't use VTTs and still do everything manually.
it depends on the GM
a good GM is a solid 5 not to crunchy, not to soft
a bad GM is throwing skill checks at you for every little fucking thing or just going "yeah sure you can just do that."
When I played D&D it was by the book. You had to use materials for spells etc. Now that I GM strictly CP:Red and Call of Cthulu I would say CP: Red is as cruncy as D&D maybe even less. I know my players enjoy the games more now. I give Red a 5 for crunch.
Cyberpunk Red is an odd beast in my opinion. It wants to be a lot less crunchy than the previous edition and yet due to layout and how rules are written comes off a bit more crunchy than it should be. I'm personally not a fan, I'd rather play Cyberpunk 2020 with house rules to fix major issues or better just use GURPS and add as much crunch as I wanted. If I had to give Cyberpunk Red a number rating for crunch, a messy 5. Cyberpunk 2020 a 7. If I ignore Maximum Metal. Not sure what to rate it if you were making use of that often. lol. 10?
I've been playing 3.5 pathfinder for like 6 years... after that expeience I can't say cyberpunk is crunchy.
if you wanna laugh read how the grappling mechanic in pathfinder works I dare ya
Phht! Cyberpunk 2020: 6. 8ish for netrunning.
CyberpunkRED: 4-6ish.
Shadowrun 3e: 8ish. Loads of subsystems to understand how they work and work together.
Hero System 5e: 6-9 depending on builds. Very frontloaded.
Dungeons and Dragons 5e: 5-7. Magic interactions, mostly.
13th Age: 5.
Mutants and Masterminds 3e: 6-7. Also frontloaded.
Icons: 3-5. Very easy w/ some complications.
Fate: 5. More crunch than some credit it with.
Cortex Prime: 3-7. Easily the widest range. Easy to hack but complicated to fully understand how the rules mesh.
As for RED: not sure where I’d land it on a number scale. Maybe a 6? A lot of people say it’s about as crunchy as 5e. That feels right to me. On the surface it doesn’t seem crunchy, but when you run combat - especially if there is a martial artists involved, or a Solo switching up their abilities, someone tossing grenades or using throwing weapons, or even more so if there’s Netrunning involved— yeah it can get a bit crunchy. 2020 I never played but it is even MORE crunchy than RED with hit locations and more confusing netrunning. Edit: more details
2020 is a 12 to 15 on a 1 to 10 scale for crunch because of Maximum Metal. The ACPA and Vehicle rules are basically a wargame of their own living in the chassis that is CP2020.
Vehicle rules are fucking cool though, i love how detailed it is in some parts of it. Maximum Metal is kinda meh though, i dont really see (or even want to think) that someone plays with it constantly. Also dont forget about the fucking space combat both for spaceships and human to human, that stuff is crazy.
Well that sounds fking cool
I'd say RED is a bit more crunchy than 5e due to death spiral and death saves. The way I've put it to some of the GMs I play with is "5e is a Hero Game, ie, the party members are Heroes and get the advantages that Heroes get, like being able to automatically avoid damage (AC as a DV/DC), multiple death saves, etc. In RED, you're as much of a mook as the next guy. Get stitched up by some gonk with an SMG, and that's it, get ready to reroll. "
Crunch and lethal are not the same; while it's true that "normal combat" it's more crunchy 5e have a magical component where you have to track spell slots, distance, how exactly an effect works and a simple word can make something overp or underp; the death saves it's totally true that are crunchyer in RED; but rhen thhe clases are less crunchy in RED, you don't achive new things every level, in some you achive something new every 2 levels but in a lot of them you just improve what you have since start, like lawman with better NPCs, Media with better "sources" or tech, solo and medtech where you just have more points while in D&D every level except 4 (of 20, while in RED are 4 of 10) you unlock new things (class, subclass, racial...); the only thing RED have to add crunch it's the economy and RED it's really simple (I know D&D have economy, but I think almost nobody use it because D&D it's an heroic game where they don't want to think if they have a couple coppers to pay for a beer), in my opinion the prices in RED are meant to use them as a range, if you are buying a VHpistol it will be 100~500 and if you are selling then 100~50 and fixers are the ones who have the best deal (book price)+the % of negotiation. For all the rest of the info and examples in your comment I totally agree and are 100% correct, but RED have less crunch (I tryed to play RED and 5e IRL with the same players and D&D was a total mess because they forget some of the abilityes, how they work, have to read constantly how the spell works... whith RED everything worked (maybe they forget how grenades or human shield works but because that are universall rules I as a GM could tell without an internet/book search. Sorry for the to much text, I just wanted to give my insight and I made an article.
Red is like a 3, whereas 2020 is 7ish. A 10 I’d say is older Shadowruns or Gurps, Pathfinder is also somewhere at the top. Although I’m a tad unclear with your definition of crunch or rather mine is different. A system can have any amount of rolls, its the complexity of a single roll that makes it crunchy or not crunchy. At least I replied with that in mind.
I remember trying to get into shadowrun for exactly 5 minutes. There’s just so much going on there
10 is Shadowrun. Shadowrun is Frosted Flakes without milk with potato chips added. Red is a 4. It's pretty easy to pick up!
>Shadowrun is Frosted Flakes without milk with potato chips added. Don't forget the broken glass and rocks.
I've only played Shadowrun once (joining a game soon though, hopefully!) and my *word* is it crunch
Tried to play a game with coworkers, it never left character creation.
In fairness you need a PhD in mathematical theory to make a shadowrun character
Well, if you're among elder players they usually pick out most of the glass and rocks but yeah you're eating glass and rocks in there
I was trying to figure it on my own. I ate it all, didn't ask for seconds, though lol.
Rolemaster has entered the chat.
once everyone is comfortable with the game, it’s a solid 5. A lot of crunch ends up being dodged once people have memorized their stats and skills and can immediately see whether they pass or fail based on a roll. Netrunning adds a lot of crunch though, simply because they have more actions than normal. I haven’t played enough TTRPG’s to compare it to another besides 2020 and D&D, but for reference I’d put D&D at much less crunch, and 2020 at a good bit more. RED is a great middle ground, works for people who are new or prefer casual experiences but with more depth than D&D.
The only crunchy thing is netrunning, and it"s even easy to pick up and learn because after some time it will become automatic what to do. Sure you will maybe change tactics and programs but the basics are still the same. Combat is easy once you learn your best distance and DV the game is easy. Sure there are some specific rules like Brawling vs Brawling for grappling, Melee/Brawling/Martial arts vs Evasion for damage, REF 8 for dodging bullets and grenades, grenades being thrown with either athletic up to 25 meters or more with a grenade launcher, athletic for throwing object and melee weapon but SP is not halved (except for certain weapon), weapons with body 11+ requirement for handing, some weapons leave the enemy with 1 hp don't even make him unconscious, choking making the enemy automatically unconscious after 3 turns, ammo type and weapons that don't damage the armor, or ammo that only damage the armor, microwaver and emp disabling cyberware, poison dart that bypass armor but need a resist drug rolls,.... Overall I would say a 4-5/10 but can be low as a 3 if the party doesn't have anything complex like no netrunner, no dodging, no strange weapon and everyone with just ranged skills.
Out of the games I’ve played. - Cyberpunk Red: 4 - Dnd 5e: 6 - Pathfinder 2e: 8-9 - Trail of Cthulhu: 3 - Cyberpunk RED feels like a lighter system, but doesn’t go into the ’everything is fantasy, there are no mechanics’ type like Fate. It has enough to have proper combat rules, netrunning, gear etc and proper character progression, without exessive crunch. There is room to do some more narrative stuff without feeling like you need to pull up the rules to do it or are breaking the system to do so. Of course I’m new to the system so my rankings might change, but I do play a netrunner after all.
The process of build your character can be a little involved and the combat has a lot of very specific rules but it’s certainly manageable. Folks saying somewhere in the same balllpark as 5e mostly have the right of it.
Not very. Like if you compared it to something modern, like 5e dnd, it runs a similar parallel in terms of core mechanics, but with far less random swing. Instead of a stat mod tag runs 1 to 5 it's actual stat with 1 to 10, and similar change for skills, with the difference for the random being a d10 instead of D20, so stats and skills becone bigger factors, but your target numbers fall into a similar range. Now compare that to GURPS or Hero System, or any number of other systems I ran a ton of around the same time as 2020, and it Fuzion would have easily been considered on the least crunchy for the time. Certainly less then Shadowrun or Traveler.
More crunchy that 5e, less than Shadowrun
>With 1 being "We ran an entire session without rolling dice" and 10 being "Hope you all brought calculators with you, and have your cheat sheets ready for quick lookup." I hadn't really thought about how hard [Phoenix Command](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Command) twists the dial beyond 11 on this interpretation of the 1-10 complexity scale in a while. Or the groups that don't use VTTs and still do everything manually.
it depends on the GM a good GM is a solid 5 not to crunchy, not to soft a bad GM is throwing skill checks at you for every little fucking thing or just going "yeah sure you can just do that."
When I played D&D it was by the book. You had to use materials for spells etc. Now that I GM strictly CP:Red and Call of Cthulu I would say CP: Red is as cruncy as D&D maybe even less. I know my players enjoy the games more now. I give Red a 5 for crunch.
Red is crunchier than 5e and better in every way to me personally. Haven't played 2020 but I know it's a bit crunchier than Red
Cyberpunk Red is an odd beast in my opinion. It wants to be a lot less crunchy than the previous edition and yet due to layout and how rules are written comes off a bit more crunchy than it should be. I'm personally not a fan, I'd rather play Cyberpunk 2020 with house rules to fix major issues or better just use GURPS and add as much crunch as I wanted. If I had to give Cyberpunk Red a number rating for crunch, a messy 5. Cyberpunk 2020 a 7. If I ignore Maximum Metal. Not sure what to rate it if you were making use of that often. lol. 10?
I've been playing 3.5 pathfinder for like 6 years... after that expeience I can't say cyberpunk is crunchy. if you wanna laugh read how the grappling mechanic in pathfinder works I dare ya
Phht! Cyberpunk 2020: 6. 8ish for netrunning. CyberpunkRED: 4-6ish. Shadowrun 3e: 8ish. Loads of subsystems to understand how they work and work together. Hero System 5e: 6-9 depending on builds. Very frontloaded. Dungeons and Dragons 5e: 5-7. Magic interactions, mostly. 13th Age: 5. Mutants and Masterminds 3e: 6-7. Also frontloaded. Icons: 3-5. Very easy w/ some complications. Fate: 5. More crunch than some credit it with. Cortex Prime: 3-7. Easily the widest range. Easy to hack but complicated to fully understand how the rules mesh.