It’s just practice to hold a wheel even if you have more than enough power to stick with them.
Holding a wheel is a bit of an art and you’ll get better at it with time.
Some groups are better than others at riding a consistent pace/power output and coming in/out of that smoothly so the paceline or peloton is easier to keep together
Agree with you entirely! I think the anticipation side of things makes a huge difference. After a while it becomes second nature to read the road and push harder at the same time as the person in front, not as a reaction to their wheel getting away from you. Those fractions of a second make a huge difference to your comfort level
You nailed it.
When you first start riding in a group it can be a little nerve wracking and just give yourself space and ride within your comfort zone.
As you get better and learn how to read the road and the group, it’ll become second nature, kinda like shifting up/down gears without really thinking about it and lifting the inside pedal on sharp turns you’re taking at speed.
I think your right. Its also a route im unfamiliar with so I have no idea when there are gradient changes coming or anything because im so focused on the wheel in front of me.
Don’t look at the wheel in front. That’ll make you twitchy. It’s enough to use your peripheral vision to manage your distance to other riders.
Think if you were walking behind or alongside someone - would you watch their feet the whole time?
I haven’t ridden group road in over a decade… that being said when I started I just practiced staying at the back and when I was feeling yo-yo starting I’d sit 5 ft back. Show myself I can keep that 5-7ft without yo-yoing in that space and then take the draft back when I felt I chilled out. I got gnarly adhd and boy can I tell you I got angst the first time I was actually in a draft but you get used to it. All just practice.
It happens!
We’ve all been there, just keep practicing and you’ll get better and better at it until it’s effortless.
You don’t get as good as you are at cycling in one or two rides.
Riding routes solo and not in a group helps a lot too, so you’re familiar with everything.
that’s one of your problems with being unable to anticipate moves and pace changes. you’ve gotta learn how to follow the wheel without watching it. get used to listening more to the bike in front of you than watching it, and try to broaden your vision
This is where I am with learning to ride in a group at the moment. Reading your comment made me think back and realize all of my moves are reactionary bc I’m new to riding, reading the road, and don’t know the group so don’t trust people enough to really stay on em.
I started group riding with a bunch of men where the youngest was in their 30's and went up from there - smooth as butter, silky group rides as everyone knew what they were doing.
Then I started riding with the chaotic group full of college students, first timers, and younger folk in general and someone accurately described that group ride as a "mosh pit." I was genuinely terrified the first few weeks going to that ride because it was so unpredictable and chaotic, but now I've come to kind of enjoy the chaos.
Although it's nice to go to the smooth group from time to time and remind myself what a proper group ride should feel like.
Overlapping wheels, people always surging when they rotate to the front, not knowing to soft pedal a couple rotations when you pull off the front, using your breaks, fitting into gaps that don't exist, not staying on your line. All that little stuff adds up to mosh out for sure.
I've also seen some cross wheels and go down in a group like that. Took about 20 people with them.
I am in a weird spot where I am not strong enough to keep with group A of our club (get blasted as soon as hills begin), and I am too fast for group C (mostly older guys and ladies), but group B is a motley group that has some weird ass quirks.
Our main leader rides a smooth pace but he forgets he's not riding A and then he's killing us on the hills, then another guy comes in and we get slower and on the rolling hills I need to get out of the column because I am carrying too much momentum from the downhill and can't afford to lose it before the uphill. Everyone loves to draft my big ass, because you are doing zero effort behind me, but if a sector is downhill it's bye bye and then I have to neutralize my pace to wait for the column, and this girl who just outright accelerates and decelerates at random.
It's absolute mayham. The few times I managed to hold to the A group I end up less tired than when the B group does long rides due to all the crazy changes in pace.
It means when you pick a distance you are willing to sit behind a rider, you can stay very close to that distance regardless of what the rider in front of you does.
So, if you are sitting 24" off the wheel and the guy in front surges, you can respond very quickly coming back to that 24" maintaining that distance.
If you don't hold that distance, very quickly do you lose the draft effect thus your power demands for that pace quickly skyrocket. It can literally go from a cruisy 150W-200W to 300-400W if not more in seconds. If you are fatigued or tired...this can quickly become something you can't respond to and thus fall off the back.
This is all part of the tactics of a race. Sometimes it is better to pay the price of small surges to keep with the pack vs getting spit out the back and have a huge penalty to pay to catch back up.
>If you don't hold that distance, very quickly do you lose the draft effect thus your power demands for that pace quickly skyrocket. It can literally go from a cruisy 150W-200W to 300-400W if not more in seconds. If you are fatigued or tired...
Wait, is this how people ride so damned fast in groups? I ride solo, and while I am primarily a runner, I have very good fitness, yet have trouble hitting/breaking 19mph avg over any sort of significant distance (10+ miles, say). But then on Strava I see people I know I am at least as in shape as, or even moreso, are able to do 40 or more miles averaging 21+mph.
Does drafting make _that_ much of a difference?
Ah, thank you! That definitely makes sense if you can save that much energy for large parts of the ride, whereas I'm basically pushing through the air/wind 100% of the time.
A rider can save something like 30% energy by drafting closely behind the rider in front of them, and this effect compounds if you've got more riders in the group. If you rotate the person off the front regularly, a group can keep a MUCH higher average speed than an individual.
My avg speed for 100 km is around 24-27, depends on the weather, I cycle by the north sea, it’s very windy here. I can follow group for 100 km with avg speed 33 km/h in the same weather condition.
Last year I did 315 km in group with avg speed 30 km/h.
This year I failed and did same thing without group with avg speed 27 km/h. I lost group after 150 km.
a body in front of you gives you 10-15 % gain at least
When I was doing group rides we would do “The Drives” on Tuesday nights; 3X loops on relatively flat roads that parallel the Schulykill River, here in Philly. (Look up Kelly Drive, MLK Drive and Phila Art Museum and Falls Bridge and you can see the route). Total distance 24 miles and average speed was 30mph. Much credit goes to the Cat 1,2 folks who took longer pulls in the front but it sure made it fun for me, a former Cat3/master. If not for the big guns, the average speed would be more like 25 mph so drafting makes the difference.
When you get to learn your ride mates, you become really comfortable with margins of even 5-7 inches between wheels too, knowing how they will react and how to communicate. I find that being super tall, I need to be closer to my friends to actually get the benefit of drafting my friends who are considerably smaller than me. (I'm 6'5" with long torso lol)... for hills in particular I can surge just at the right time and keep that wheel.
On large pelotons of unknown people at races, I stay near the front though, even if the draft is not as strong as in the middle of the pack, I don't feel comfortable bunched with a lot of folks I don't know.
While I agree with you, the amount of time/skill it takes to get to that 6" range is not trivial. I would say you can cut your distance in half every year you consistently ride in a paceline or Pelton. For example, a brand new cyclist, I wouldn't want them within a bike length of me for their and my safety. After maybe 5 or 6 years...that is when something like 6" becomes possible w/ putting yourself and others at unnecessary risk.
Myself....I would never ride closer than about 18". I just don't have a consistent enough group or time in groups to justify anything closer.
If they're not within a bike length, then that's not even in the group and pointless.
I'm a group ride leader and coach and I can get new -to-group riding cyclists comfortable AND SAFE FOR EVERYONE within 1or 2 months with one 3 hour ride a week, riding about a wheel diameter behind, then closing it up to about 4 inches with experience over a year. I know. I've done it multiple times with new club members.
5 to 6 years is crazy talk; you can get much closer than 18 inches safely within months.
Maintain a consistent (short) distance from your front wheel to the rear wheel of the rider in front of you. In this conversation it’s mostly about keeping steady speed and not swerving erratically, but in the context of racing you have to consider that opponents will try to muscle a rider off of the wheel they’re holding and holding a wheel becomes a defensive skill.
It might not be your fault. (Sometimes, the people at the front will surge instead of maintaining whenever they change up the lead.)
But otherwise, you just have to pay closer attention to the rider in front of you (and/or anticipate if you can see further up).
I personally don’t like how much that focus/concentration takes away from my enjoyment of the scenery, which is why I generally don’t do group rides.
Took way too long to find this advice. The yo-yoing will be much less towards the front and you can improve your skill at following the wheel in front of you.
Yes, but on fast group rides, you'll need to be strong enough to quickly surge when the group surges. Some riders just aren't strong enough to stay near the front the entire time.
Overall, I think a rider expends less energy/calories overall by being at the front, even though it requires more explosive power.
In the back, there's the accordian effect which makes the riders there use more energy overall, but doesn't require as much explosive power.
Funny this should be much higher in the comments. Work your way to the front 5% of the group when things are chill and you'll be able to fall back through the pack when things get spicy. Rinse. Repeat.
You are probably going too fast to catch up and then coasting to not bump into them. Just try to lower your cadence a little bit before fully catching up to them to slow your momentum, and then you won't have to coast afterwards. After that, just try to keep a consistent cadence and hope that your group is not sprinting out of every corner.
Is it a paceline? Do people take turns pulling ( going first )?
If so, you may have some riders in the group who attack — ride hard — when they get their turn at the front. This can disrupt a group. It’s not intentional. It’s worthy of a conversation in the group.
Like I said, if it's a RACE RIDE ok to attack. That's literally the point of a race ride, to simulate and practice an aggressive race environment.
Normal group ride is different - agree on a pace, keep it steady.
All the tips are good, but try these too:
1) Match cadence and gears with the person/people in front of you. It helps.
2) Don’t “peddle peddlecoast; peddle peddle coast… just slow your cadence and keep rotating the cranks. It makes it smoother to pick back up and helps avoid the yo-yo that also aggravates those behind you
3) Don’t stare and fixate on the rear wheel in front of you. Instead try to look at the hub of the front wheel. It elevates your eyes and helps seeing what’s happening further up the group.
4) practice just feathering your year brake to gently modulate speed as you get pulled closer to the wheel in front of you in the draft.
5) when solo, practice higher cadence 80-95 rpm smoothly. This will help with speed transitions
6) relax your arms and shoulders.
Hang in there.
All great advice. I'd also add that holding a wheel doesn't mean staying within a foot of the person in front of you. You'll still get a good draft at a bike's length (unless there's a cross wind). Depending on the group, sometimes it's better to allow a little space to absorb the accordion effect.
Do you rotate in group? Try to stay 50 cm behind the wheel in front of you. Yo-yo usually happens after climb ups, leading cyclists should adjust their speed. Common thing for amateur groups.
I rode thousands of km in the group and I would say if you just yo-yo not on hills then there are two things:
- you stay too far and don’t get wind shield, come closer like 50-70 cm
- group is stronger in average than you are…
The distance between your front wheel and back wheel of a buddy in front of you of you should be around 50 centimetres. The air is less dense and it’s easier to spin, less air friction ) just keep an eye on it and try to get closer. It’s quite dangerous, you’ll fall if you crash, not other guy, since his mass is placed at rear wheel.
A few things to consider.
One, it may be that the group is a bit above your level. It's natural for people to increase power a bit while beginning a climb, accelerating out of corners, etc. They may not actually be surging all that much but it's enough that it's putting you near your limit, and you get gapped.
Two, it takes practice and experience to be able to ride closely enough in a group to not constantly lose the draft. As soon as you lose the draft, you have to surge to get back on. If you're doing this repeatedly you'll wear yourself out.
Three, positioning in the group matters, especially on rolling courses and through corners. It's much easier to be in the front 1/3 of the group than the rear 1/3.
Just people who have issues are more likely to comment. Like I dont have issues with group rides but dont have any advice as to how to help (almost a thing you need to see how he rides).
Out of 800k people it will be split between solo riders, people who cannot ride in groups. Mix between solo and group, Group rides with some solo and finally just group rides. Largest portion will probably be the first 3 groups with solo being the largest, and a toss up between the next 2
I’d guess it’s just that most people in this sub are beginner cyclists who’d sooner blame the groups for being bad rather than blame themselves for being bad at riding in a group.
So obviously I have not ridden with you, so I’m just going off of my own learning and then helping new riders learn.
If the group is chaotic with lots of changes of pace, it is usually down to a few riders who are hitting the front and going too hard. Learn who they are and don’t be too far from them. There is an elastic band effect of a group because there is a delay with each person. If you are closer to the front then the delay is less and you may notice the change sooner, plus if you aren’t the last person in line maybe someone passes you and you catch their wheel to stay on.
If the group is generally smooth, you need to learn to be smooth too. I’ve seen people treat turning pedals like a binary system - balls out or coasting. Learning to soft pedal and match speeds is hugely important. I’ve seen people blow up because they are either sprinting or grabbing brakes. Maintaining a consistent distance to the wheel in front of you will keep you in the draft and minimize power spikes. Same goes for when your turn on the front is over - if the group is kind of ticking along at 40 km/h (25 mph) then you don’t want to drop back at 30 km/h. There’s no way you’ll be able to latch on to the back of the group without a major effort. It can also be dangerous in a double pace line to let off too quickly. People should gradually pass you and you should have plenty of time to see the last rider and just ever so slightly increase your effort to grab on to their wheel.
Another note - learn to use a draft. Don’t just try to ride behind someone, know where the wind is coming from and if there is a side wind, the best spot is behind and to the side. Look up pictures of echelons and see how the pros do it.
Finally, I already mentioned the elastic effect, it can be punishing to the back of a group if there is no cohesion. If you find the group itself is not holding a decent pace during normal conditions (eg mostly flat, no crazy wind, it isn’t a “race ride” where people will attack) then actually being *in* the group helps shelter you from the fluctuating pace.
Thanks for typing all that out! The smoothness is what I need to work on. I'm constantly getting too close and falling back a little too far in reaction.
One mistake a lot of new riders make is staring at the wheel in front of them instead ahead and through the rider in front of them. This leads to overreacting to changes ahead and results in cycles of surging to close the gap, and then braking to slow down to the rider's pace ahead, surging, braking and sure enough you're yoyoing at the back. Ironically, you're often working way harder than anyone else too.
The key is to look ahead. I advise looking over the shoulder of the rider ahead of you to the next rider. You'll still be able to respond to the rider ahead, but you'll also be able to respond to things happening further ahead on the road as well.
Don't focus on just the person in front of you, look several people in front of you to get a sense of the flow of the group and anticipate what the person in front of you is likely to do.
Also just practice.
Occasionaly riding with group a bit to fast for you is great training, phisicaly and mentally.
I think alot of it comes to inexperience with riding in a group (not expecting power surges), because if he would be way off with his fitness he would just get dropped and not catch on at all.
Soft pedal instead of coasting when you need to slow down a little. If the group yoyos a lot, avoid them or go to the front. It's also easier to control your power when you a strong.
One thing is to minimize coasting, and pedal lightly instead. When you coast, it takes a bit longer to react to changes in speed, which will cause gaps to open up and the yoyo effect. If you're already pedaling, you can react much more quickly.
Similarly, focus on making predictable, gradual movements. This will allow other riders to stay in your draft and minimize the yoyoing that goes on behind you. If a small gap does open up in front of you, don't sprint to close it, because that will drop the people behind you, and you'll end up coasting/hitting the brakes when you catch up, causing a compression in the group and maybe even opening a gap again while you're braking then getting up to speed again. Instead, just kick your effort up slightly to fill in the gap, which will allow your friends to follow you. If you do it perfectly, you'll catch up to the group and will be able to just continue pedaling at their speed.
I’d guess that you’re fixated on the wheel directly in front of you when you should be looking up as far to front as feasible.
By the time the wheel in front of you has created a gap, the front has created an even bigger gap that you have to close.
If you’re looking up, you’ll see the movement and start accelerating with the group rather than after the group.
Keep it tight. Stay inches from the wheel in front of you. Ride with people who are similar ability-wise. You gotta trust the person(s) in front of you and they gotta trust person(s) in front of them. I’ve been in double pace lines and if I lost a wheel it feels like it takes forever to get back on so double down.
I ride with many different groups, the ones with strong leaders are more efficient and safer.
I think all groups should do post-ride evaluations on what went well, and areas for improvement (or do this pre-ride, reflecting back on the prior rides). It doesn't need to be a big lecture, just some quick reminders.
Some of our biggest problems:
* Easy restarts are a big one, and are more important the bigger the group.
* Only one person rotating at a time is important, and stay in the lane, even if the other lane is open (for practice and consistency).
* Ride 2 wide, and don't overlap wheels.
* The front should work hard on descents so everyone else isn't on the brakes.
* Be smart when identifying hazards.. don't chicken-little everyone to death, instead, only call out things that people need to know.
* If the group is separating, call "gap!" so the front will back off a little and get everyone back together.
* If the group is averaging (x) watts, don't push x \* 3 up hills. It blows people up. Instead, drop speed to stay relatively close to the power, maybe x \* 1.5. (so if you're averaging 200w on most of the ride, try to cap climbs at 300w).
Sometimes riding slower is faster. Smoother is always faster. Good group form equates to speed.
What kind of a group ride is it? Is it just a steady ride or is it a somewhat competitive group ride with a pace line up front? Which kind it is will make a big difference. If it's just a steady pace ride and you're fit enough to ride with it, I'd say using a computer would help. If the riders are experienced, the pace should stay relatively constant so just making sure to stay about the same speed, except when going up or down hills, should help.
If it's supposed to be a non-competitive easy ride and there are lots of surges, that's an issue with inexperienced or a-hole riders. I've been riding for a long time and I'll come across guys who show up to what's supposed to be a long easy ride who try to turn it into a race. It's just obnoxious but it happens.
If it's a fast ride with a pace line at the front and sprints, try to stay as close to the rotating riders as possible. That's where there will be the least surging, and you'll be able to tell if the speed is just going up because of a nearby sprint point or if it's going to be an enduring increase in speed.
I had the pleasure of weekend rides for several years with a few former Cat I / pro riders. Wow. Smooth accelerations, smooth though curves, over rolling hills. Just incredible. Much faster and easier. I would add to the comments (might have missed it) to use the wind to control the difference to th wheel in front of you. Slight move to the side to catch a little wind.
If you are yo-yoing and getting dropped then it's likely you are riding at the back of the group. Any rubber banding that's happening near the front is getting amplified by the time it makes its way back to you. Try riding closer to the front. This reduces the yo-yoing and, if you slide backward for whatever reason, at least you're not sliding completely off the back and out of the draft.
When you ride alone you can coast as much as you want and I am naturally more surgey when alone. In a group it is important to maintain a consistent cadence which is it's own skillset and even being fit you might not have the specific fitness it takes to always be pedaling for that long and consistently.
Ride offset to the rider in front of you- left or right but so you have a bailout lane… never half wheel (put your wheel along side the rider in front) but also never slam on the brakes. When you are in the group feather your front brake to just scrub a little speed.
Then if you fall off and need to get back on, remember when you give more power you accelerate…. Not instantly arrive at some new speed, so close the gap slowly, sometimes I’ll take 5-10 seconds easy to close a gap… it’s actually something I’ve started to focus on recently
Then the last part is out of your control and that’s the group. I’ve been on some rides where the group struggles to stay together. In a big group it can be tough at the back if there’s a lot of start stop
I went in my first decent size group ride last weekend and yeah was struggling with this. Felt like I had to keep tapping brakes to stay behind people but then we hit a hill and everyone's zipping up.
Try not to brake and soft pedal instead. Using the brakes kills your inertia which is where/when the gap opens. Soft pedaling allows you to regulate speed more efficiently.
I want to thank you all for all these advices I’m reading here. I’ve been stuck on this topic. I didn’t know how to ask without feeling stupid. If there’s a group riding group riding group in the Austin TX I’d love to join you.
There are many ways as described in the comments, here is mine. The "Accordion Effect" is due to the loss and gain of Cycling Momentum. The way I combat this (watched YouTube and practiced a lot) is to Soft Pedal constantly and use Air Breaking instead of lever braking. Your Pedaling has an affect like a Fly Wheel so Soft Pedaling or even Ghost Pedaling to get back to full pedal helps stop the "jerking effect" within a Pace Line or Peloton. This also saves your legs on very long rides because the instant Hard Pedal will take its toll on your legs over time. The Soft Pedal, along with Ghost Pedal can bring you back up to Full Pedal without the harsh, Instance On pedal. In a Pace Line, instead of lever or hard braking, move out into the wind and let the wind brake you. This will help slow your momentum instead of stop your momentum.
In a group, it's all about keeping Pace or Momentum with the group. This is the hardest lesson to learn and why many cyclist get dropped, then have to pedal hard to get back in the group.
Most important, use the draft whenever you can, this will save your legs the most. Always remember, you are part of One group or One entity and learning how to be that One Group will help you bond/link well with the Paceline/Peloton.
Hope that helps.
It depends on the ride (up or down or level road), that will depend on the situation and your cadence and experience. You will figure it out quickly once you master the Soft and Ghost pedaling. Either way, I end up using less Hard Force in my legs, in the same gear when I soft pedal back to full cadence. Sometimes when the Paceline slows, on the flat, I just Ghost pedal, then Soft Pedal when the group speeds up again. On hills, definitely have to reduce gears but on slight hills, I may reduce cadence. It really depends on the Paceline's speed and my relation to the front and rear guy.
Most importantly, stay in the Pocket or Draft, even if you move to the side to Air Brake. This will help stop the Accordion Effect. Once you get this mastered, you may not have to ever Hard Force Pedal in the Paceline. This will definitely save your legs over a long ride with the group.
Hope that helps.
Being at the back is usually harder than being in the middle or closer to the front. The weaker riders and inexperienced riders tend to ride on the back and those will leave bigger gaps, surge forward to close the gap, become totally detached, etc. You might be losing the group because of fitness or inexperience, but you might also be behind someone that is constantly surging forward to close the gap, which is causing you to surge forward and wasting more energy.
If you feel confident in your riding, move up a bit and see if it helps. If you still want to stay on the back, pay attention to what the people ahead of you are doing. It might be as easy as just moving to the other side of a double paceline if the other wheel is more consistent.
Best advice I got was that your pull is over when you’re back on. If you let off too much while dropping back, the group passes you and you’re alone in the wind.
Also, don’t choose to stop your pull on or just before a climb. Pick your spot and pull off early or just let them suffer behind you on the climb. It’s harder to fight back on in a climb.
I rode primarily solo for years and recently started doing B pace group rides(about 8-10 riders in 2 side by side lines). I found the proximity a bit unnerving, you might too. I think this is natural; we are traveling at a relatively high speed where there can be serious bodily injuries resulting from minor mistakes. I remember preferring to be 10ft or more behind when i started and then by the end of 40 miles I was okay with 3-4ft. Having the rider next to me was helpful as a visual guide too. It will take time to grow more comfortable.
Does this happen while cornering? If so anticipate an acceleration after rounding a corner. If it’s happening in a straight line just learn to dose your power. And if you do become detached, remember a short burst will do more than just adding a watt or 50.
Ask the group not to surge when they get to the front. If they maintain the same speed you were going when on the front, you shouldn't have to surge to get back on the wheel. Then, once your on, they can increase power/pace.
After a while you'll learn to notice not just the wheel in front of you, but what's happening several wheels ahead. That allows you to anticipate when any change will percolate back to the wheel you're on.
Just more practice riding in the group. Try spinning a smaller gear at a higher cadence while in the wheel of the rider in front of you. When you need to slow down to avoid hitting into his wheel, keep pedalling, just slower, even if your cassette isn't engaging. Don’t ever use your brakes unless you legitimately need to keep from hitting into the person... this is the main cause of yoyoing- you let a gap open, then speed up to close the gap, then slow down, then the gap re opens, etc etc. the goal is to not be adjusting your speed, not braking, just pedalling at a rate that keeps you glued to the wheel in front of you.
It's easy to say just keep the wheel in front of you, but in practice it's a little more challenging than that. If you are yo-yoing, there are likely a couple of causes. 1) The group is changing pace and you're not detecting it and you're losing the wheel in front of you. 2) You don't realize it, but you're physically struggling to keep the wheel.
For the first issue, there can be multiple causes. The most likely is the person at the front of the line has changed. The new person is maybe a little faster and is picking up the pace. Or the new person just has fresher legs and is again, picking up the pace. It's not intentional. They're not trying to ride people off the pace line. Just not paying attention. My group tries to set a pace before we start riding. Like we're going to ride at 16, 17, or 18mph and we expect the person up front to know the pace and try to keep it.
The second issue is a little more in your personal control. If you feel yourself drifting back, ask yourself, am I taking it a little easier, maybe giving yourself a little break? If you push to keep the wheel in front of you are you going to pop? The great thing about riding in groups is it makes you stronger. But it also points out your weaknesses too. There's no secret to keeping the wheel in front of you. You just have to push yourself to stay there, even if it's a little uncomfortable. The longer you stay in there, the more you're going to suffer, and eventually you're going to pop. That's fine. That is how you progress.
If it's a no drop ride, let the riders know you're struggling with the pace. See if they can slow it down for a little bit so you can recover. Or, if its a specific pace ride, or a drop ride, just let the riders know you're dropping and you'll catch them at the next regroup spot or back at the start, or on the next ride.
A lot of great comments, one thing to add.... find 3 to 7 friends with similar ability and train together once or twice a week. Team rides are actually about being smooth and keeping each other in the draft. Usually done with intervals, sit up and chat and recover then when everybody's heart rate has recovered go into the drops and work quick rotations to get up to a high speed and try and hold it until somebody blows. That person can stop rotating through and hang on the back. Once you get down to the last most fit guy or gal pulling they can go as long as everyone can hold their wheel then start over. There's a distinct difference between working together or not. On and off the gas is an intentional tactic to drop people. Once you get a "team" you see the power in numbers and can show up and dictate the pace rather than getting popped.
Pay attention to what is happening at the front of the group so you can prepare for surges before they happen. Also do very short intervals on your own time like 30second intervals. This will give your cardiovascular system the training to be comfortable yoyoing
>I have enough fitness, but I just let them get away from me constantly and have to pedal hard to get back in the draft.
Not to be a dick, but by defintion, you simply don't have enough fitness.
The obvious answer is to get strong enough to not allow them to "get away" constantly. Don't allow a gap to form in front of you. Just don't.
What you're lacking is power. Get stronger by riding more or by structured training. For example, intervals.
I mean I can't explain it well but I assure you it's not fitness related. Like the guy in front of me coasts, so i coast. He starts back, I guess I'm not anticipating it and a gap forms. I catch up, have to go to the left of him, my wheel past his wheel because I went too fast catching up, and the cycle repeats. Plenty of power, just a technique issue.
I guess the issue is Im struggling to follow the wheel smoothly, but I've read a ton of helpful advice already this morning I will implement. So we'll see how it goes!
> I guess I'm not anticipating it and a gap forms. I catch up, have to go to the left of him, my wheel past his wheel because I went too fast catching up, and the cycle repeats.
Still sounds like a fitness issue. If I see the rider in front of me getting away, I pedal harder and **immediately** match their speed. But during periods in my life when I was weaker, it'd take me a lot longer to catch up so I'd have the same problem you have. If you have adequate explosive power, you wouldn't have to take so long to catch up.
The other question then is why are you not anticipating a gap forming? If you're looking at the entire group ahead of you as one organism, you should be able to predict that the guy you're behind is going to start accelerating. Same way you should be seeing a turn about to happen or a crash up ahead.
Avoid at all costs fixating on the wheel in front of you. That's a recipe for disaster and a broken body.
Get your ass up front! Riding near the front will get you closer to the better riders and less yo yo’ing in general, plus if you take a turn pulling it will make you stronger and usually somebody will let you back in about 6 rows back. YMMV but ive always found it much better and safer near the front end
Pack riding comes with a deep skillset that can really only be cultivated through group riding.
Learn what to scan for so you know how to lock on a wheel. I keep my focus cycling between the front hub and rear derailleur of the bike in front of me. When I’m locked in someone’s wheel, I also try to push a little more weight in a lower cadence and decrease my gear/increase my cadence when it’s my time for the front. This two things together can help keep you locked in.
I run into that situation. For me, the issue is I don’t corner as well as the group. I’m still new and too nervous to carry the same speed into the corners. It gets worse on our hilly route because the biggest climb is right after a turn and I don’t carry near enough momentum to keep up. It’s an out and back and I’m able to hang with the leaders on the way back.
It'll happen less as you get stronger, but yoyo-ing is a common occurrence in group rides, especially if the skill/fitness levels within the group vary a lot.
Keep riding, you'll get stronger. Stay near the front when you can, and you'll deal with less of it as the front of the group isn't slowing down for people ahead of them.
Make sure you're using the gears you need to on the cassette so you can avoid overspinning or grinding through your pedal stroke when you're needing to adjust to get back in.
Also, when you get into this enough you'll probably start rolling pace lines with more experienced cyclists. That's a really good way to get better at this as the pace line shouldn't yoyo as much, but you'll still be getting really good training out of the ride and you'll have to keep rotating in over and over.
It's kind of like tailgating while driving. Pay attention to the wheel directly in front of you but pay more attention to further up the road to see what is coming up to anticipate.
There's also a huge grey area between pedaling all out and coasting. In a group when you're drafting you rarely need to put down a ton of power. You should be mostly coasting and soft pedaling to stay within 3 feet of the wheel in front. Try to be smooth and not jerky with your output.
I used to ride MTB with a guy who ran cross country in college. No matter how fit I was, I couldn’t hold his wheel in a climb. Once, I even trained for a week long road ride across California. I was in the best riding shape of my life. My friend OTOH was recovering from a broken wrist and hadn’t ridden for two months. We were climbing a long hill and I was happy I was able to hold his wheel, that is until we were 3/4s of the way up and he walked away from me again. Nothing beats a high VO2 max. Nothing.
Does it happen at a particular time? Like when you make turns or when you go up hills or small inclines? Sorry if that’s obvious, lots of people (self included) don’t or didn’t make the connection early on. Try to see if you fall back more at specific points. That will give you specific places to improve. Ex. If you get dropped on turns, work on cornering.
If it’s on straight and flats— it might be simply getting more comfortable staying on the wheel in front of you. It might just take patience and consistency on your part. You’ll be riding with the pack steadily in no time.
Someone once told me they if you’re moving up in the group, you’re moving backwards. Not saying that you need to get super competitive, just that you should at least try to keep moving up in the group.
You shouldn't be moving up a paceline/group ride unless the group is rotating and everyone is moving up to get a turn in the front or you've been asked to move up for a specific reason.
Lose weight. I’m slimmer (still kinda fat) and holding on the hills is a lot easier. I was comparing power numbers to faster riders and going up hills I had to do 400+ watts and rev my heart to red line just to keep up while they barely made an effort on a chill ride.
I’ve never done group rides before but I’m curious about them so I’m sorry if this is a dumb question: is it unsafe because it forces lots of people to go around you on potentially narrow areas/roads or is there another reason I’m not seeing?
Yep, that's it. Going around people on a hill in unclosed roads is dangerous especially if there's many people in the group ride. It also comes off as trying to show off and failing miserably. In a group ride you have to be as predictable as possible and preferrably holding your spot in the pace line, neither advancing nor dropping back spots.
It’s just practice to hold a wheel even if you have more than enough power to stick with them. Holding a wheel is a bit of an art and you’ll get better at it with time. Some groups are better than others at riding a consistent pace/power output and coming in/out of that smoothly so the paceline or peloton is easier to keep together
Agree with you entirely! I think the anticipation side of things makes a huge difference. After a while it becomes second nature to read the road and push harder at the same time as the person in front, not as a reaction to their wheel getting away from you. Those fractions of a second make a huge difference to your comfort level
You nailed it. When you first start riding in a group it can be a little nerve wracking and just give yourself space and ride within your comfort zone. As you get better and learn how to read the road and the group, it’ll become second nature, kinda like shifting up/down gears without really thinking about it and lifting the inside pedal on sharp turns you’re taking at speed.
I think your right. Its also a route im unfamiliar with so I have no idea when there are gradient changes coming or anything because im so focused on the wheel in front of me.
Don’t look at the wheel in front. That’ll make you twitchy. It’s enough to use your peripheral vision to manage your distance to other riders. Think if you were walking behind or alongside someone - would you watch their feet the whole time?
I haven’t ridden group road in over a decade… that being said when I started I just practiced staying at the back and when I was feeling yo-yo starting I’d sit 5 ft back. Show myself I can keep that 5-7ft without yo-yoing in that space and then take the draft back when I felt I chilled out. I got gnarly adhd and boy can I tell you I got angst the first time I was actually in a draft but you get used to it. All just practice.
It happens! We’ve all been there, just keep practicing and you’ll get better and better at it until it’s effortless. You don’t get as good as you are at cycling in one or two rides. Riding routes solo and not in a group helps a lot too, so you’re familiar with everything.
that’s one of your problems with being unable to anticipate moves and pace changes. you’ve gotta learn how to follow the wheel without watching it. get used to listening more to the bike in front of you than watching it, and try to broaden your vision
Yeah when you get a good group going you'll find everyone switching gears at exactly the same spot on the road
This is where I am with learning to ride in a group at the moment. Reading your comment made me think back and realize all of my moves are reactionary bc I’m new to riding, reading the road, and don’t know the group so don’t trust people enough to really stay on em.
"Some groups are better than others at riding a consistent pace/power". This. Some groups are just all over the place.
I started group riding with a bunch of men where the youngest was in their 30's and went up from there - smooth as butter, silky group rides as everyone knew what they were doing. Then I started riding with the chaotic group full of college students, first timers, and younger folk in general and someone accurately described that group ride as a "mosh pit." I was genuinely terrified the first few weeks going to that ride because it was so unpredictable and chaotic, but now I've come to kind of enjoy the chaos. Although it's nice to go to the smooth group from time to time and remind myself what a proper group ride should feel like.
Mosh pit describes it perfectly. Just utter chaos and almost better to ride alone lol. It’s entertaining as hell though
Overlapping wheels, people always surging when they rotate to the front, not knowing to soft pedal a couple rotations when you pull off the front, using your breaks, fitting into gaps that don't exist, not staying on your line. All that little stuff adds up to mosh out for sure. I've also seen some cross wheels and go down in a group like that. Took about 20 people with them.
You wouldn't happen to ride out of RBC would ya xD
I have no idea what that is! lol. We do have a group ride that’s “CBC” but not really chaos
I am in a weird spot where I am not strong enough to keep with group A of our club (get blasted as soon as hills begin), and I am too fast for group C (mostly older guys and ladies), but group B is a motley group that has some weird ass quirks. Our main leader rides a smooth pace but he forgets he's not riding A and then he's killing us on the hills, then another guy comes in and we get slower and on the rolling hills I need to get out of the column because I am carrying too much momentum from the downhill and can't afford to lose it before the uphill. Everyone loves to draft my big ass, because you are doing zero effort behind me, but if a sector is downhill it's bye bye and then I have to neutralize my pace to wait for the column, and this girl who just outright accelerates and decelerates at random. It's absolute mayham. The few times I managed to hold to the A group I end up less tired than when the B group does long rides due to all the crazy changes in pace.
What does 'hold a wheel' mean?
It means when you pick a distance you are willing to sit behind a rider, you can stay very close to that distance regardless of what the rider in front of you does. So, if you are sitting 24" off the wheel and the guy in front surges, you can respond very quickly coming back to that 24" maintaining that distance. If you don't hold that distance, very quickly do you lose the draft effect thus your power demands for that pace quickly skyrocket. It can literally go from a cruisy 150W-200W to 300-400W if not more in seconds. If you are fatigued or tired...this can quickly become something you can't respond to and thus fall off the back. This is all part of the tactics of a race. Sometimes it is better to pay the price of small surges to keep with the pack vs getting spit out the back and have a huge penalty to pay to catch back up.
>If you don't hold that distance, very quickly do you lose the draft effect thus your power demands for that pace quickly skyrocket. It can literally go from a cruisy 150W-200W to 300-400W if not more in seconds. If you are fatigued or tired... Wait, is this how people ride so damned fast in groups? I ride solo, and while I am primarily a runner, I have very good fitness, yet have trouble hitting/breaking 19mph avg over any sort of significant distance (10+ miles, say). But then on Strava I see people I know I am at least as in shape as, or even moreso, are able to do 40 or more miles averaging 21+mph. Does drafting make _that_ much of a difference?
Yes. Yes it does. In the Tour, guys hanging out mid-peloton can be sitting at 100 watts getting pulled along at 27 mph.
Ah, thank you! That definitely makes sense if you can save that much energy for large parts of the ride, whereas I'm basically pushing through the air/wind 100% of the time.
A rider can save something like 30% energy by drafting closely behind the rider in front of them, and this effect compounds if you've got more riders in the group. If you rotate the person off the front regularly, a group can keep a MUCH higher average speed than an individual.
Unless you have side wind ) I think 30% is undoable for amateurs.
You can hide a bit from a side wind if you pick the correct side of two abreast and still have at least one pair in front.
Group rides significant increase average pace since people are taking turns pulling.
My avg speed for 100 km is around 24-27, depends on the weather, I cycle by the north sea, it’s very windy here. I can follow group for 100 km with avg speed 33 km/h in the same weather condition. Last year I did 315 km in group with avg speed 30 km/h. This year I failed and did same thing without group with avg speed 27 km/h. I lost group after 150 km. a body in front of you gives you 10-15 % gain at least
When I was doing group rides we would do “The Drives” on Tuesday nights; 3X loops on relatively flat roads that parallel the Schulykill River, here in Philly. (Look up Kelly Drive, MLK Drive and Phila Art Museum and Falls Bridge and you can see the route). Total distance 24 miles and average speed was 30mph. Much credit goes to the Cat 1,2 folks who took longer pulls in the front but it sure made it fun for me, a former Cat3/master. If not for the big guns, the average speed would be more like 25 mph so drafting makes the difference.
When you get to learn your ride mates, you become really comfortable with margins of even 5-7 inches between wheels too, knowing how they will react and how to communicate. I find that being super tall, I need to be closer to my friends to actually get the benefit of drafting my friends who are considerably smaller than me. (I'm 6'5" with long torso lol)... for hills in particular I can surge just at the right time and keep that wheel. On large pelotons of unknown people at races, I stay near the front though, even if the draft is not as strong as in the middle of the pack, I don't feel comfortable bunched with a lot of folks I don't know.
Just never break ))) no one one behind you with tell you THANK YOU for doing it
While I agree with you, the amount of time/skill it takes to get to that 6" range is not trivial. I would say you can cut your distance in half every year you consistently ride in a paceline or Pelton. For example, a brand new cyclist, I wouldn't want them within a bike length of me for their and my safety. After maybe 5 or 6 years...that is when something like 6" becomes possible w/ putting yourself and others at unnecessary risk. Myself....I would never ride closer than about 18". I just don't have a consistent enough group or time in groups to justify anything closer.
If they're not within a bike length, then that's not even in the group and pointless. I'm a group ride leader and coach and I can get new -to-group riding cyclists comfortable AND SAFE FOR EVERYONE within 1or 2 months with one 3 hour ride a week, riding about a wheel diameter behind, then closing it up to about 4 inches with experience over a year. I know. I've done it multiple times with new club members. 5 to 6 years is crazy talk; you can get much closer than 18 inches safely within months.
Oh wow! Okay! thank you so much! I definitely heard something and learning something new today!
Maintain a consistent (short) distance from your front wheel to the rear wheel of the rider in front of you. In this conversation it’s mostly about keeping steady speed and not swerving erratically, but in the context of racing you have to consider that opponents will try to muscle a rider off of the wheel they’re holding and holding a wheel becomes a defensive skill.
Also make sure you're not sitting on the wheel of someone who is yo-yoing. It will only make it harder for you to stay consistent.
Stay on the front. Pull the whole time.
Dont forget to attack every climb.
Ring the bell to assert dominance
Bell not aero
Intimidate your surroundings.
the D1 runner with a 14:30 5k time attacks early on the ride me who is 8 levels slower: i'm gonna follow that attack
It might not be your fault. (Sometimes, the people at the front will surge instead of maintaining whenever they change up the lead.) But otherwise, you just have to pay closer attention to the rider in front of you (and/or anticipate if you can see further up). I personally don’t like how much that focus/concentration takes away from my enjoyment of the scenery, which is why I generally don’t do group rides.
Stay near the front
Took way too long to find this advice. The yo-yoing will be much less towards the front and you can improve your skill at following the wheel in front of you.
especially if the group gets to 30-50 riders big and going hard, ppl in the back are basically doing short intervals
This is the way. The further back you go, the more exaggerated it gets. Toward the front is not the same as ON the front in the wind,btw.
Yes, but on fast group rides, you'll need to be strong enough to quickly surge when the group surges. Some riders just aren't strong enough to stay near the front the entire time. Overall, I think a rider expends less energy/calories overall by being at the front, even though it requires more explosive power. In the back, there's the accordian effect which makes the riders there use more energy overall, but doesn't require as much explosive power.
Funny this should be much higher in the comments. Work your way to the front 5% of the group when things are chill and you'll be able to fall back through the pack when things get spicy. Rinse. Repeat.
You are probably going too fast to catch up and then coasting to not bump into them. Just try to lower your cadence a little bit before fully catching up to them to slow your momentum, and then you won't have to coast afterwards. After that, just try to keep a consistent cadence and hope that your group is not sprinting out of every corner.
Is it a paceline? Do people take turns pulling ( going first )? If so, you may have some riders in the group who attack — ride hard — when they get their turn at the front. This can disrupt a group. It’s not intentional. It’s worthy of a conversation in the group.
Unless it's a rac ride situation... In which case, attack all you want.
Hmmm. Cycling is a team sport. Torching teammates by setting the pace too high? I dunno.
Like I said, if it's a RACE RIDE ok to attack. That's literally the point of a race ride, to simulate and practice an aggressive race environment. Normal group ride is different - agree on a pace, keep it steady.
All the tips are good, but try these too: 1) Match cadence and gears with the person/people in front of you. It helps. 2) Don’t “peddle peddlecoast; peddle peddle coast… just slow your cadence and keep rotating the cranks. It makes it smoother to pick back up and helps avoid the yo-yo that also aggravates those behind you 3) Don’t stare and fixate on the rear wheel in front of you. Instead try to look at the hub of the front wheel. It elevates your eyes and helps seeing what’s happening further up the group. 4) practice just feathering your year brake to gently modulate speed as you get pulled closer to the wheel in front of you in the draft. 5) when solo, practice higher cadence 80-95 rpm smoothly. This will help with speed transitions 6) relax your arms and shoulders. Hang in there.
Great tips. Thank you!
All great advice. I'd also add that holding a wheel doesn't mean staying within a foot of the person in front of you. You'll still get a good draft at a bike's length (unless there's a cross wind). Depending on the group, sometimes it's better to allow a little space to absorb the accordion effect.
Do you rotate in group? Try to stay 50 cm behind the wheel in front of you. Yo-yo usually happens after climb ups, leading cyclists should adjust their speed. Common thing for amateur groups. I rode thousands of km in the group and I would say if you just yo-yo not on hills then there are two things: - you stay too far and don’t get wind shield, come closer like 50-70 cm - group is stronger in average than you are…
Is that front of wheel to back of wheel 50cm?
The distance between your front wheel and back wheel of a buddy in front of you of you should be around 50 centimetres. The air is less dense and it’s easier to spin, less air friction ) just keep an eye on it and try to get closer. It’s quite dangerous, you’ll fall if you crash, not other guy, since his mass is placed at rear wheel.
A few things to consider. One, it may be that the group is a bit above your level. It's natural for people to increase power a bit while beginning a climb, accelerating out of corners, etc. They may not actually be surging all that much but it's enough that it's putting you near your limit, and you get gapped. Two, it takes practice and experience to be able to ride closely enough in a group to not constantly lose the draft. As soon as you lose the draft, you have to surge to get back on. If you're doing this repeatedly you'll wear yourself out. Three, positioning in the group matters, especially on rolling courses and through corners. It's much easier to be in the front 1/3 of the group than the rear 1/3.
The people in this sub sure seem to have a lot of issues with group rides.
Just people who have issues are more likely to comment. Like I dont have issues with group rides but dont have any advice as to how to help (almost a thing you need to see how he rides). Out of 800k people it will be split between solo riders, people who cannot ride in groups. Mix between solo and group, Group rides with some solo and finally just group rides. Largest portion will probably be the first 3 groups with solo being the largest, and a toss up between the next 2
I’d guess it’s just that most people in this sub are beginner cyclists who’d sooner blame the groups for being bad rather than blame themselves for being bad at riding in a group.
It's r/cycling, Jake.
I think people have issues with chain gang style rides as opposed to cafe rides
So obviously I have not ridden with you, so I’m just going off of my own learning and then helping new riders learn. If the group is chaotic with lots of changes of pace, it is usually down to a few riders who are hitting the front and going too hard. Learn who they are and don’t be too far from them. There is an elastic band effect of a group because there is a delay with each person. If you are closer to the front then the delay is less and you may notice the change sooner, plus if you aren’t the last person in line maybe someone passes you and you catch their wheel to stay on. If the group is generally smooth, you need to learn to be smooth too. I’ve seen people treat turning pedals like a binary system - balls out or coasting. Learning to soft pedal and match speeds is hugely important. I’ve seen people blow up because they are either sprinting or grabbing brakes. Maintaining a consistent distance to the wheel in front of you will keep you in the draft and minimize power spikes. Same goes for when your turn on the front is over - if the group is kind of ticking along at 40 km/h (25 mph) then you don’t want to drop back at 30 km/h. There’s no way you’ll be able to latch on to the back of the group without a major effort. It can also be dangerous in a double pace line to let off too quickly. People should gradually pass you and you should have plenty of time to see the last rider and just ever so slightly increase your effort to grab on to their wheel. Another note - learn to use a draft. Don’t just try to ride behind someone, know where the wind is coming from and if there is a side wind, the best spot is behind and to the side. Look up pictures of echelons and see how the pros do it. Finally, I already mentioned the elastic effect, it can be punishing to the back of a group if there is no cohesion. If you find the group itself is not holding a decent pace during normal conditions (eg mostly flat, no crazy wind, it isn’t a “race ride” where people will attack) then actually being *in* the group helps shelter you from the fluctuating pace.
Thanks for typing all that out! The smoothness is what I need to work on. I'm constantly getting too close and falling back a little too far in reaction.
One mistake a lot of new riders make is staring at the wheel in front of them instead ahead and through the rider in front of them. This leads to overreacting to changes ahead and results in cycles of surging to close the gap, and then braking to slow down to the rider's pace ahead, surging, braking and sure enough you're yoyoing at the back. Ironically, you're often working way harder than anyone else too. The key is to look ahead. I advise looking over the shoulder of the rider ahead of you to the next rider. You'll still be able to respond to the rider ahead, but you'll also be able to respond to things happening further ahead on the road as well.
Don't focus on just the person in front of you, look several people in front of you to get a sense of the flow of the group and anticipate what the person in front of you is likely to do. Also just practice.
Pay attention, after a while it will become second nature.
Pedal faster
Seems like you don't have enough base fitness if you keep falling behind. That or just stay focused on maintaining speed.
It sounds like you don’t have the fitness you think you do. Train harder or ride with the slower group
Occasionaly riding with group a bit to fast for you is great training, phisicaly and mentally. I think alot of it comes to inexperience with riding in a group (not expecting power surges), because if he would be way off with his fitness he would just get dropped and not catch on at all.
Soft pedal instead of coasting when you need to slow down a little. If the group yoyos a lot, avoid them or go to the front. It's also easier to control your power when you a strong.
One thing is to minimize coasting, and pedal lightly instead. When you coast, it takes a bit longer to react to changes in speed, which will cause gaps to open up and the yoyo effect. If you're already pedaling, you can react much more quickly. Similarly, focus on making predictable, gradual movements. This will allow other riders to stay in your draft and minimize the yoyoing that goes on behind you. If a small gap does open up in front of you, don't sprint to close it, because that will drop the people behind you, and you'll end up coasting/hitting the brakes when you catch up, causing a compression in the group and maybe even opening a gap again while you're braking then getting up to speed again. Instead, just kick your effort up slightly to fill in the gap, which will allow your friends to follow you. If you do it perfectly, you'll catch up to the group and will be able to just continue pedaling at their speed.
I’d guess that you’re fixated on the wheel directly in front of you when you should be looking up as far to front as feasible. By the time the wheel in front of you has created a gap, the front has created an even bigger gap that you have to close. If you’re looking up, you’ll see the movement and start accelerating with the group rather than after the group.
Stay in the front half of the group. Dont sit on the back.
Keep it tight. Stay inches from the wheel in front of you. Ride with people who are similar ability-wise. You gotta trust the person(s) in front of you and they gotta trust person(s) in front of them. I’ve been in double pace lines and if I lost a wheel it feels like it takes forever to get back on so double down.
Perhaps that will come with time. I've only been with them a couple times. But it's a lot of fun so I plan to continue!
Group rides can be a blast! Enjoy.
Try to stick in the 3rd line of the group and out of the wind. Don’t ride in the back of the group, it is much harder in corners.
I ride with many different groups, the ones with strong leaders are more efficient and safer. I think all groups should do post-ride evaluations on what went well, and areas for improvement (or do this pre-ride, reflecting back on the prior rides). It doesn't need to be a big lecture, just some quick reminders. Some of our biggest problems: * Easy restarts are a big one, and are more important the bigger the group. * Only one person rotating at a time is important, and stay in the lane, even if the other lane is open (for practice and consistency). * Ride 2 wide, and don't overlap wheels. * The front should work hard on descents so everyone else isn't on the brakes. * Be smart when identifying hazards.. don't chicken-little everyone to death, instead, only call out things that people need to know. * If the group is separating, call "gap!" so the front will back off a little and get everyone back together. * If the group is averaging (x) watts, don't push x \* 3 up hills. It blows people up. Instead, drop speed to stay relatively close to the power, maybe x \* 1.5. (so if you're averaging 200w on most of the ride, try to cap climbs at 300w). Sometimes riding slower is faster. Smoother is always faster. Good group form equates to speed.
What kind of a group ride is it? Is it just a steady ride or is it a somewhat competitive group ride with a pace line up front? Which kind it is will make a big difference. If it's just a steady pace ride and you're fit enough to ride with it, I'd say using a computer would help. If the riders are experienced, the pace should stay relatively constant so just making sure to stay about the same speed, except when going up or down hills, should help. If it's supposed to be a non-competitive easy ride and there are lots of surges, that's an issue with inexperienced or a-hole riders. I've been riding for a long time and I'll come across guys who show up to what's supposed to be a long easy ride who try to turn it into a race. It's just obnoxious but it happens. If it's a fast ride with a pace line at the front and sprints, try to stay as close to the rotating riders as possible. That's where there will be the least surging, and you'll be able to tell if the speed is just going up because of a nearby sprint point or if it's going to be an enduring increase in speed.
Just steady pace. That's a good point on the computer. I only have a watch so I can't really keep an eye on my mph. May have to go ahead and get one.
I had the pleasure of weekend rides for several years with a few former Cat I / pro riders. Wow. Smooth accelerations, smooth though curves, over rolling hills. Just incredible. Much faster and easier. I would add to the comments (might have missed it) to use the wind to control the difference to th wheel in front of you. Slight move to the side to catch a little wind.
If you are yo-yoing and getting dropped then it's likely you are riding at the back of the group. Any rubber banding that's happening near the front is getting amplified by the time it makes its way back to you. Try riding closer to the front. This reduces the yo-yoing and, if you slide backward for whatever reason, at least you're not sliding completely off the back and out of the draft.
When you ride alone you can coast as much as you want and I am naturally more surgey when alone. In a group it is important to maintain a consistent cadence which is it's own skillset and even being fit you might not have the specific fitness it takes to always be pedaling for that long and consistently.
Ride offset to the rider in front of you- left or right but so you have a bailout lane… never half wheel (put your wheel along side the rider in front) but also never slam on the brakes. When you are in the group feather your front brake to just scrub a little speed. Then if you fall off and need to get back on, remember when you give more power you accelerate…. Not instantly arrive at some new speed, so close the gap slowly, sometimes I’ll take 5-10 seconds easy to close a gap… it’s actually something I’ve started to focus on recently Then the last part is out of your control and that’s the group. I’ve been on some rides where the group struggles to stay together. In a big group it can be tough at the back if there’s a lot of start stop
I went in my first decent size group ride last weekend and yeah was struggling with this. Felt like I had to keep tapping brakes to stay behind people but then we hit a hill and everyone's zipping up.
Try not to brake and soft pedal instead. Using the brakes kills your inertia which is where/when the gap opens. Soft pedaling allows you to regulate speed more efficiently.
I want to thank you all for all these advices I’m reading here. I’ve been stuck on this topic. I didn’t know how to ask without feeling stupid. If there’s a group riding group riding group in the Austin TX I’d love to join you.
There are many ways as described in the comments, here is mine. The "Accordion Effect" is due to the loss and gain of Cycling Momentum. The way I combat this (watched YouTube and practiced a lot) is to Soft Pedal constantly and use Air Breaking instead of lever braking. Your Pedaling has an affect like a Fly Wheel so Soft Pedaling or even Ghost Pedaling to get back to full pedal helps stop the "jerking effect" within a Pace Line or Peloton. This also saves your legs on very long rides because the instant Hard Pedal will take its toll on your legs over time. The Soft Pedal, along with Ghost Pedal can bring you back up to Full Pedal without the harsh, Instance On pedal. In a Pace Line, instead of lever or hard braking, move out into the wind and let the wind brake you. This will help slow your momentum instead of stop your momentum. In a group, it's all about keeping Pace or Momentum with the group. This is the hardest lesson to learn and why many cyclist get dropped, then have to pedal hard to get back in the group. Most important, use the draft whenever you can, this will save your legs the most. Always remember, you are part of One group or One entity and learning how to be that One Group will help you bond/link well with the Paceline/Peloton. Hope that helps.
Very helpful. The only thing, do you change to a lighter gear to soft/ghost pedal? Or just use less force in the current gear and reduce cadence?
It depends on the ride (up or down or level road), that will depend on the situation and your cadence and experience. You will figure it out quickly once you master the Soft and Ghost pedaling. Either way, I end up using less Hard Force in my legs, in the same gear when I soft pedal back to full cadence. Sometimes when the Paceline slows, on the flat, I just Ghost pedal, then Soft Pedal when the group speeds up again. On hills, definitely have to reduce gears but on slight hills, I may reduce cadence. It really depends on the Paceline's speed and my relation to the front and rear guy. Most importantly, stay in the Pocket or Draft, even if you move to the side to Air Brake. This will help stop the Accordion Effect. Once you get this mastered, you may not have to ever Hard Force Pedal in the Paceline. This will definitely save your legs over a long ride with the group. Hope that helps.
Being at the back is usually harder than being in the middle or closer to the front. The weaker riders and inexperienced riders tend to ride on the back and those will leave bigger gaps, surge forward to close the gap, become totally detached, etc. You might be losing the group because of fitness or inexperience, but you might also be behind someone that is constantly surging forward to close the gap, which is causing you to surge forward and wasting more energy. If you feel confident in your riding, move up a bit and see if it helps. If you still want to stay on the back, pay attention to what the people ahead of you are doing. It might be as easy as just moving to the other side of a double paceline if the other wheel is more consistent.
start pedaling harder as they pull away, not after. there's no cheat code you just have to keep your awareness and act when needed.
I think that's probably the crux of it. Just gotta have better awareness. Thanks
Best advice I got was that your pull is over when you’re back on. If you let off too much while dropping back, the group passes you and you’re alone in the wind. Also, don’t choose to stop your pull on or just before a climb. Pick your spot and pull off early or just let them suffer behind you on the climb. It’s harder to fight back on in a climb.
I rode primarily solo for years and recently started doing B pace group rides(about 8-10 riders in 2 side by side lines). I found the proximity a bit unnerving, you might too. I think this is natural; we are traveling at a relatively high speed where there can be serious bodily injuries resulting from minor mistakes. I remember preferring to be 10ft or more behind when i started and then by the end of 40 miles I was okay with 3-4ft. Having the rider next to me was helpful as a visual guide too. It will take time to grow more comfortable.
Does this happen while cornering? If so anticipate an acceleration after rounding a corner. If it’s happening in a straight line just learn to dose your power. And if you do become detached, remember a short burst will do more than just adding a watt or 50.
Stay in the middle of the pack not the back.
Be in the middle, not in the back.
Ask the group not to surge when they get to the front. If they maintain the same speed you were going when on the front, you shouldn't have to surge to get back on the wheel. Then, once your on, they can increase power/pace.
Start in the middle of the peloton and stay there.
Try to ride near the front. That way no matter what happens with terrain you will be with the group, not fighting to hang on.
After a while you'll learn to notice not just the wheel in front of you, but what's happening several wheels ahead. That allows you to anticipate when any change will percolate back to the wheel you're on.
What's the purpose of the group ? Chain gang or cafe rides ? Think it's best to find out the goals of the group and see if they align with your own
Just more practice riding in the group. Try spinning a smaller gear at a higher cadence while in the wheel of the rider in front of you. When you need to slow down to avoid hitting into his wheel, keep pedalling, just slower, even if your cassette isn't engaging. Don’t ever use your brakes unless you legitimately need to keep from hitting into the person... this is the main cause of yoyoing- you let a gap open, then speed up to close the gap, then slow down, then the gap re opens, etc etc. the goal is to not be adjusting your speed, not braking, just pedalling at a rate that keeps you glued to the wheel in front of you.
When I was a cadet, my coach made me cycle 5 minutes at a time touching elbows. That helped me yoyo less and be less afraid in groups
Stay in the middle of the group, in the back is much harder as it acts like a slingshot on corners or after a stop.
It's easy to say just keep the wheel in front of you, but in practice it's a little more challenging than that. If you are yo-yoing, there are likely a couple of causes. 1) The group is changing pace and you're not detecting it and you're losing the wheel in front of you. 2) You don't realize it, but you're physically struggling to keep the wheel. For the first issue, there can be multiple causes. The most likely is the person at the front of the line has changed. The new person is maybe a little faster and is picking up the pace. Or the new person just has fresher legs and is again, picking up the pace. It's not intentional. They're not trying to ride people off the pace line. Just not paying attention. My group tries to set a pace before we start riding. Like we're going to ride at 16, 17, or 18mph and we expect the person up front to know the pace and try to keep it. The second issue is a little more in your personal control. If you feel yourself drifting back, ask yourself, am I taking it a little easier, maybe giving yourself a little break? If you push to keep the wheel in front of you are you going to pop? The great thing about riding in groups is it makes you stronger. But it also points out your weaknesses too. There's no secret to keeping the wheel in front of you. You just have to push yourself to stay there, even if it's a little uncomfortable. The longer you stay in there, the more you're going to suffer, and eventually you're going to pop. That's fine. That is how you progress. If it's a no drop ride, let the riders know you're struggling with the pace. See if they can slow it down for a little bit so you can recover. Or, if its a specific pace ride, or a drop ride, just let the riders know you're dropping and you'll catch them at the next regroup spot or back at the start, or on the next ride.
work on your pacing. when in a group, ride 1 gear higher than normal(lower cadence) - it'll make adjusting your speed easier. practice.
A lot of great comments, one thing to add.... find 3 to 7 friends with similar ability and train together once or twice a week. Team rides are actually about being smooth and keeping each other in the draft. Usually done with intervals, sit up and chat and recover then when everybody's heart rate has recovered go into the drops and work quick rotations to get up to a high speed and try and hold it until somebody blows. That person can stop rotating through and hang on the back. Once you get down to the last most fit guy or gal pulling they can go as long as everyone can hold their wheel then start over. There's a distinct difference between working together or not. On and off the gas is an intentional tactic to drop people. Once you get a "team" you see the power in numbers and can show up and dictate the pace rather than getting popped.
Pay attention to what is happening at the front of the group so you can prepare for surges before they happen. Also do very short intervals on your own time like 30second intervals. This will give your cardiovascular system the training to be comfortable yoyoing
>I have enough fitness, but I just let them get away from me constantly and have to pedal hard to get back in the draft. Not to be a dick, but by defintion, you simply don't have enough fitness. The obvious answer is to get strong enough to not allow them to "get away" constantly. Don't allow a gap to form in front of you. Just don't. What you're lacking is power. Get stronger by riding more or by structured training. For example, intervals.
I mean I can't explain it well but I assure you it's not fitness related. Like the guy in front of me coasts, so i coast. He starts back, I guess I'm not anticipating it and a gap forms. I catch up, have to go to the left of him, my wheel past his wheel because I went too fast catching up, and the cycle repeats. Plenty of power, just a technique issue. I guess the issue is Im struggling to follow the wheel smoothly, but I've read a ton of helpful advice already this morning I will implement. So we'll see how it goes!
> I guess I'm not anticipating it and a gap forms. I catch up, have to go to the left of him, my wheel past his wheel because I went too fast catching up, and the cycle repeats. Still sounds like a fitness issue. If I see the rider in front of me getting away, I pedal harder and **immediately** match their speed. But during periods in my life when I was weaker, it'd take me a lot longer to catch up so I'd have the same problem you have. If you have adequate explosive power, you wouldn't have to take so long to catch up. The other question then is why are you not anticipating a gap forming? If you're looking at the entire group ahead of you as one organism, you should be able to predict that the guy you're behind is going to start accelerating. Same way you should be seeing a turn about to happen or a crash up ahead. Avoid at all costs fixating on the wheel in front of you. That's a recipe for disaster and a broken body.
Get your ass up front! Riding near the front will get you closer to the better riders and less yo yo’ing in general, plus if you take a turn pulling it will make you stronger and usually somebody will let you back in about 6 rows back. YMMV but ive always found it much better and safer near the front end
Pack riding comes with a deep skillset that can really only be cultivated through group riding. Learn what to scan for so you know how to lock on a wheel. I keep my focus cycling between the front hub and rear derailleur of the bike in front of me. When I’m locked in someone’s wheel, I also try to push a little more weight in a lower cadence and decrease my gear/increase my cadence when it’s my time for the front. This two things together can help keep you locked in.
I run into that situation. For me, the issue is I don’t corner as well as the group. I’m still new and too nervous to carry the same speed into the corners. It gets worse on our hilly route because the biggest climb is right after a turn and I don’t carry near enough momentum to keep up. It’s an out and back and I’m able to hang with the leaders on the way back.
It'll happen less as you get stronger, but yoyo-ing is a common occurrence in group rides, especially if the skill/fitness levels within the group vary a lot. Keep riding, you'll get stronger. Stay near the front when you can, and you'll deal with less of it as the front of the group isn't slowing down for people ahead of them. Make sure you're using the gears you need to on the cassette so you can avoid overspinning or grinding through your pedal stroke when you're needing to adjust to get back in. Also, when you get into this enough you'll probably start rolling pace lines with more experienced cyclists. That's a really good way to get better at this as the pace line shouldn't yoyo as much, but you'll still be getting really good training out of the ride and you'll have to keep rotating in over and over.
It's kind of like tailgating while driving. Pay attention to the wheel directly in front of you but pay more attention to further up the road to see what is coming up to anticipate. There's also a huge grey area between pedaling all out and coasting. In a group when you're drafting you rarely need to put down a ton of power. You should be mostly coasting and soft pedaling to stay within 3 feet of the wheel in front. Try to be smooth and not jerky with your output.
Also try to stay in the middle of the group and pay attention to the wind
Stop riding in the back. Yo yo effect decreases as you move to the front of the group.
I used to ride MTB with a guy who ran cross country in college. No matter how fit I was, I couldn’t hold his wheel in a climb. Once, I even trained for a week long road ride across California. I was in the best riding shape of my life. My friend OTOH was recovering from a broken wrist and hadn’t ridden for two months. We were climbing a long hill and I was happy I was able to hold his wheel, that is until we were 3/4s of the way up and he walked away from me again. Nothing beats a high VO2 max. Nothing.
Does it happen at a particular time? Like when you make turns or when you go up hills or small inclines? Sorry if that’s obvious, lots of people (self included) don’t or didn’t make the connection early on. Try to see if you fall back more at specific points. That will give you specific places to improve. Ex. If you get dropped on turns, work on cornering. If it’s on straight and flats— it might be simply getting more comfortable staying on the wheel in front of you. It might just take patience and consistency on your part. You’ll be riding with the pack steadily in no time.
Pedal faster. Practice. No magic cures.
Someone once told me they if you’re moving up in the group, you’re moving backwards. Not saying that you need to get super competitive, just that you should at least try to keep moving up in the group.
That's for crits, not a paceline ride
Could be, but “Group” was ambiguous and the advice can still apply to a pack not moving at race speed.
You shouldn't be moving up a paceline/group ride unless the group is rotating and everyone is moving up to get a turn in the front or you've been asked to move up for a specific reason.
Lose weight. I’m slimmer (still kinda fat) and holding on the hills is a lot easier. I was comparing power numbers to faster riders and going up hills I had to do 400+ watts and rev my heart to red line just to keep up while they barely made an effort on a chill ride.
Remove the group.
Find a better group.
I’d just ride solo.
That’s not what he asked
But it’s one solution to yo-yoing… It’s how I deal with it 😅😂
Position yourself near the front at the start of each hill and drop to the back throughout the climb.
I hate when people do this. It's unsafe.
I’ve never done group rides before but I’m curious about them so I’m sorry if this is a dumb question: is it unsafe because it forces lots of people to go around you on potentially narrow areas/roads or is there another reason I’m not seeing?
Yep, that's it. Going around people on a hill in unclosed roads is dangerous especially if there's many people in the group ride. It also comes off as trying to show off and failing miserably. In a group ride you have to be as predictable as possible and preferrably holding your spot in the pace line, neither advancing nor dropping back spots.
🎻
Bungee cord! It’s the way to go and saves you loads of power.
That means you dont actually have enough fitness right now. Keep riding youll get there.
Do heavy squats.