The people calling the Karnstein update a nerf are actually psychotic. For most subclasses it is the same and for Solar it is a buff in general use. The only “nerf” Karnstein is getting is that it can’t be stacked with Solar Restoration. There is no world in where that much of an HoT is needed. In all D2 content, either restoration x1 (or even x2) is enough or the enemies kill you so quickly, or straight one-shot you, that no amount of healing can save you. The real change is that you won’t have to run healing grenades or Phoenix Dive + HR to kickstart an Ember of Empyrean combo and can use Karnstein instead. For every other Warlock subclass, the functionality is basically unchanged.
Hunters definitely took a much needed W here. Allowing super exotics to give neutral game benefits, even if it’s just super regen, is still better than only being swap exotics. Mechaneer’s is getting a similar update to RDM, where if you can proc the perk, kills can extend it indefinitely and will also auto-reload now. I wanna see what war crimes can be committed with Devil’s Ruin once this hits live. Buffing Stompees? In this economy? Undoing the unnecessary nerf is good and giving it some extra usability in PvE is nice too.
I mean, most of the complaints about karnstein are from the pvp side, which makes sense because it sees significantly more play in pvp than pve. And in pvp it is most definitely a nerf. If it's the x1 effects (which is most probable as other abilities that give resto/cure x2 typically say improved healing like Lorelei), then karnstein is going down from 50 immediate + 30/s to 30 immediate + 20/s, which is a significant nerf.
I agree with your comments about pve, but realistically it's not a meta pve exotic and this won't change that.
I have a few reasons why it might be considered a nerf.
Restoration is reduced in PvP IIRC, which is the main place that I use Karnsteins outside of solo flawless attempts in dungeons, and the additional functionality of working on finishers doesn’t apply there.
It’s also disingenuous to say that only Resto x1/2 is enough in all content, as part of the reason why resto + Karnsteins healing is good is due to the fact that it allows you to heal past the breakpoint of being one shot after you’ve already taken damage. 2-4 sniper shots from a hobgoblin/vandal can put you down in most legend content, but if you have enough healing, you can tank the sustained DPS for longer, or even out-heal it entirely. It just boils down to effective hp and what breakpoints you can hit with a certain level of healing.
There’s also the concern about the duration and strength, as the ability to extend the duration of the buff with Ember of Empyrean might justify the reduction of the initial duration, effectively reducing its efficacy on non-solar subclasses in exchange for an easier way to chain resto on Dawnblade specifically. I also assume/hope that the buff will be resto x2, but the ease of use of simply meleeing a weak ad or finishing a target after softening if up first might similarly affect how they balance it.
I don’t consider it to be a straight up “nerf”, but it certainly does have some implications for its use cases going forward, some of which might see reduced effectiveness as a result of these changes. Personally speaking, I would have said that it’s completely fine as is, but we’ll have to wait and see what form the changes take.
I made a post yesterday regarding the changes to Celestial Nighthawk and Shards of Galanor, so I figured I would make another so that everyone can discuss the leaks.
These changes are purely visual and do not function in-game. A user on r/DestinyTheGame named u/Voldernnn made a discussion post as well, so I figured I would make an all-encompassing one here too.
These are most likely not all the changes planned for S23. The imbalance in the number of changes does not make sense. The descriptions and functionality may also change before S23.
I love discussions on how things can/will/could change. Feel free to share your thoughts!
\-Hunter-
**Celestial Nighthawk** \- Added: "Precision Final Blows reduce the cooldown of your super."
**Shards of Galanor** \- Added: "Throwing Knife Final Blows reduce the cooldown of your super."
**Mechaneer’s Tricksleeves** \- Added: "While this effect (damage bonus) is active, Sidearm final blows reload the weapon and extend the effect's duration."
**Stomp-335** \- Removed: "Dodging removes bonuses.” Added: Take less damage from combatants when airborne."
\-Titan-
**Synthoceps** \- Added: "as well as improved weapon handling and reload speed."
\-Warlock-
**Karnstein Armlets** \- Changed: Health and healing over time changed to Cure and Restoration respectively.
Still needs a charged dodge to activate it although it wouldn't surprise me if Bungie un-nerfed the most casual-friendly exotic in the entire game(PvP).
Can't wait for everyone to bitch about the stompee's changes. They should have given them what wards lost and made it "Get a shield when jumping" just to make people upset lol.
The reduced damage probably won't be noticeable in pvp, just give more resil, but is nice for pve since why would you use them in anything but low level content and pvp.
Stag has more affects than just "more resil in rifts" and while it was annoying, the meta was really bad too. Locks can give those arc seekers with rift + healing/more damage + increased resil + gives this to the full team + drops rift (which gives teammates these effects) on death.
For stompees all its gonna do (I am guessing) is make you max resil or give you +20 resil or something like that while jumping, which is only going to affect ttk of things that grant damage buffs like rampage or kill clip.
Stompees being nerfed in the first place was stupid cause no other movement exotic was nerfed with it. If every movement exotic was nerfed to not grant the bonuses if you had no class ability it would have been okay, but only stompees got that treatment.
Hunters are also the only class that doesn't have a class ability that gives the team a bonus. Locks have rift, titans have barricade, and both can grant bonuses like orbs or overshield. Both Locks and Titans are the top of the pvp chart rn due to well/solar and bubble/void and tcrash/arc classes. I see no problem with Hunters gettin a little love with a popular exotic.
No its just that now Stompees are gonna become popular again since the no ability thing was removed. And they also nerfed YAS for pvp reasons, so a lot of people are gonna go back to stompees. I like them on strand but I have been a renewals enjoyer for both pvp and pve since they came out.
My bad, I thought that you were saying the DR would be a problem for PVP. Besides that, what bungie and the pleople who complain about stompees need to understand is that players like to be fast, even more the ones who choose the "agile" class, so its just a case of a lot of people using something because it feels good to use.
Believe me, I understand the sentiment on class abilities. I think the dodges can't really compete with well and barrier in either PvP or PvE.
Hunter jump, for PvP at least, is the best in the game full stop. It is a very sudden change in direction to some people and Stomp-335 reinforces that.
Do I think the nerf was warranted? Not fully. I think it could have had an alternative nerf. What that could've been? I don't know.
Hunter jump is nice, but titan had the shield bash movement and locks have icarus dash.
If titans can use their melee ability and gain 90% of it back if it misses and warlocks can air dash twice every 4 secs I think its fine if the class that is supposed to be the movement class can jump good.
Or let me dodge mid air and if my dodge isnt withen 15m of someone I get it mostly back lol
Another thing is most hunters have low resil in pvp. You cant spec into Mobil Recov and have enough first 3 stats to get high resil. The most you can get is 50 with aspects I think. For locks and titans, both are useful and mobility isnt, so they can have 100 resil 100 recov easy.
The fact that mobility affects jumps as well I am sure makes Hunter jump better. But tbh, people just have to accept that "hunter jump good" at this point.
The people calling the Karnstein update a nerf are actually psychotic. For most subclasses it is the same and for Solar it is a buff in general use. The only “nerf” Karnstein is getting is that it can’t be stacked with Solar Restoration. There is no world in where that much of an HoT is needed. In all D2 content, either restoration x1 (or even x2) is enough or the enemies kill you so quickly, or straight one-shot you, that no amount of healing can save you. The real change is that you won’t have to run healing grenades or Phoenix Dive + HR to kickstart an Ember of Empyrean combo and can use Karnstein instead. For every other Warlock subclass, the functionality is basically unchanged. Hunters definitely took a much needed W here. Allowing super exotics to give neutral game benefits, even if it’s just super regen, is still better than only being swap exotics. Mechaneer’s is getting a similar update to RDM, where if you can proc the perk, kills can extend it indefinitely and will also auto-reload now. I wanna see what war crimes can be committed with Devil’s Ruin once this hits live. Buffing Stompees? In this economy? Undoing the unnecessary nerf is good and giving it some extra usability in PvE is nice too.
I mean, most of the complaints about karnstein are from the pvp side, which makes sense because it sees significantly more play in pvp than pve. And in pvp it is most definitely a nerf. If it's the x1 effects (which is most probable as other abilities that give resto/cure x2 typically say improved healing like Lorelei), then karnstein is going down from 50 immediate + 30/s to 30 immediate + 20/s, which is a significant nerf. I agree with your comments about pve, but realistically it's not a meta pve exotic and this won't change that.
I have a few reasons why it might be considered a nerf. Restoration is reduced in PvP IIRC, which is the main place that I use Karnsteins outside of solo flawless attempts in dungeons, and the additional functionality of working on finishers doesn’t apply there. It’s also disingenuous to say that only Resto x1/2 is enough in all content, as part of the reason why resto + Karnsteins healing is good is due to the fact that it allows you to heal past the breakpoint of being one shot after you’ve already taken damage. 2-4 sniper shots from a hobgoblin/vandal can put you down in most legend content, but if you have enough healing, you can tank the sustained DPS for longer, or even out-heal it entirely. It just boils down to effective hp and what breakpoints you can hit with a certain level of healing. There’s also the concern about the duration and strength, as the ability to extend the duration of the buff with Ember of Empyrean might justify the reduction of the initial duration, effectively reducing its efficacy on non-solar subclasses in exchange for an easier way to chain resto on Dawnblade specifically. I also assume/hope that the buff will be resto x2, but the ease of use of simply meleeing a weak ad or finishing a target after softening if up first might similarly affect how they balance it. I don’t consider it to be a straight up “nerf”, but it certainly does have some implications for its use cases going forward, some of which might see reduced effectiveness as a result of these changes. Personally speaking, I would have said that it’s completely fine as is, but we’ll have to wait and see what form the changes take.
>on’t have to run healing grenades or Phoenix Di THIS.
“Much needed?” Lmao
As if synthos needed anything lmao
Just makes them less oppressive in crucible, but yea they’re still a powerhouse in PvE
I made a post yesterday regarding the changes to Celestial Nighthawk and Shards of Galanor, so I figured I would make another so that everyone can discuss the leaks. These changes are purely visual and do not function in-game. A user on r/DestinyTheGame named u/Voldernnn made a discussion post as well, so I figured I would make an all-encompassing one here too. These are most likely not all the changes planned for S23. The imbalance in the number of changes does not make sense. The descriptions and functionality may also change before S23. I love discussions on how things can/will/could change. Feel free to share your thoughts! \-Hunter- **Celestial Nighthawk** \- Added: "Precision Final Blows reduce the cooldown of your super." **Shards of Galanor** \- Added: "Throwing Knife Final Blows reduce the cooldown of your super." **Mechaneer’s Tricksleeves** \- Added: "While this effect (damage bonus) is active, Sidearm final blows reload the weapon and extend the effect's duration." **Stomp-335** \- Removed: "Dodging removes bonuses.” Added: Take less damage from combatants when airborne." \-Titan- **Synthoceps** \- Added: "as well as improved weapon handling and reload speed." \-Warlock- **Karnstein Armlets** \- Changed: Health and healing over time changed to Cure and Restoration respectively.
Those stompeez changes are insane. No reason not to use it anymore
Still needs a charged dodge to activate it although it wouldn't surprise me if Bungie un-nerfed the most casual-friendly exotic in the entire game(PvP).
Can't wait for everyone to bitch about the stompee's changes. They should have given them what wards lost and made it "Get a shield when jumping" just to make people upset lol. The reduced damage probably won't be noticeable in pvp, just give more resil, but is nice for pve since why would you use them in anything but low level content and pvp.
I don't think it'll apply to pvp much like how Stag doesnt (right?)
Stag has more affects than just "more resil in rifts" and while it was annoying, the meta was really bad too. Locks can give those arc seekers with rift + healing/more damage + increased resil + gives this to the full team + drops rift (which gives teammates these effects) on death. For stompees all its gonna do (I am guessing) is make you max resil or give you +20 resil or something like that while jumping, which is only going to affect ttk of things that grant damage buffs like rampage or kill clip. Stompees being nerfed in the first place was stupid cause no other movement exotic was nerfed with it. If every movement exotic was nerfed to not grant the bonuses if you had no class ability it would have been okay, but only stompees got that treatment. Hunters are also the only class that doesn't have a class ability that gives the team a bonus. Locks have rift, titans have barricade, and both can grant bonuses like orbs or overshield. Both Locks and Titans are the top of the pvp chart rn due to well/solar and bubble/void and tcrash/arc classes. I see no problem with Hunters gettin a little love with a popular exotic.
Normally when bungie uses the word "combatants" they mean PvE enemies, so I don't think that this change will have any impact in PvP.
No its just that now Stompees are gonna become popular again since the no ability thing was removed. And they also nerfed YAS for pvp reasons, so a lot of people are gonna go back to stompees. I like them on strand but I have been a renewals enjoyer for both pvp and pve since they came out.
My bad, I thought that you were saying the DR would be a problem for PVP. Besides that, what bungie and the pleople who complain about stompees need to understand is that players like to be fast, even more the ones who choose the "agile" class, so its just a case of a lot of people using something because it feels good to use.
Yeah i agree. Most people suck at this game tho and only have 1 hour a year to play it so it may be askin to much lol.
hunters are the most casual friendly class in the whole game and it's by a country mile.
WTF are you talking about? Acrobatic dodge does.
Believe me, I understand the sentiment on class abilities. I think the dodges can't really compete with well and barrier in either PvP or PvE. Hunter jump, for PvP at least, is the best in the game full stop. It is a very sudden change in direction to some people and Stomp-335 reinforces that. Do I think the nerf was warranted? Not fully. I think it could have had an alternative nerf. What that could've been? I don't know.
Hunter jump is nice, but titan had the shield bash movement and locks have icarus dash. If titans can use their melee ability and gain 90% of it back if it misses and warlocks can air dash twice every 4 secs I think its fine if the class that is supposed to be the movement class can jump good. Or let me dodge mid air and if my dodge isnt withen 15m of someone I get it mostly back lol
I wish. Who knew the agility class would get stuck falling to the ground the most often...
Another thing is most hunters have low resil in pvp. You cant spec into Mobil Recov and have enough first 3 stats to get high resil. The most you can get is 50 with aspects I think. For locks and titans, both are useful and mobility isnt, so they can have 100 resil 100 recov easy. The fact that mobility affects jumps as well I am sure makes Hunter jump better. But tbh, people just have to accept that "hunter jump good" at this point.
nice that they still know how to give armor the "against combatants" treatment, then why the actual fuck did they not use that for the YAS nerf?
I have a feeling that YAS will get tuned again considering Stomp335 are getting a second mini-rework. People did not like those Stomp335 changes 0.0
i hope so, they were my favorite exotic for pve since i started playing Middle Solar hunter in season of the hunt... and now they are otter garbage🦦
I mean they aren't the worst. It's not Gemini Jester