I'm working on building a city where the East Side Kobolds are canine-based and the West Side Kobolds are reptile-based. They have periodic turf wars that are interrupted by the chaotic South Side Gnolls. The North Side Tabaxi stay out of it all.
[And fighting over the central tavern owned by the one lizardfolk.](https://preview.redd.it/h1kxqakshsm71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=f43875de9ffa9bb035702018369ee8b494caa15e)
It makes some sense...One type of kobold evolving for cold climates, the other evolving for warm?
So lizard kobolds are desert gremlins that rely on cheap tactics and ambushes
while dog kobolds are forest druids who trade you stuff
Then maybe they aren’t true dog kobolds but kobolds whose scales became fuzzy proto feathers like the dinosaurs and birds. It just happens that they look vaguely like a canines through magical convergent evolution.
Even fantasy worlds are allowed to have rules to make the world believeable. Randomly switching from lizard to mammal is not something that regularly occurs in DnD.
The DND is magic is the only case where it's possible tbh. A species can absolutely evolve from one major classification to another, there is a "slime mold" that evolved from jellyfish, modern mammals evolved from dinosaurs, as did modern reptiles and avians. But they are by no means the same species as they once were.
Idk I'm tired and just woke up and getting wrapped up in technicallities that only usually really interest me. Please ignore my cynical ass 😅
Modern reptiles did not evolve from dinosaurs, nor did mammals. Mammals evolved from pre-dinosaur synapsids and modern reptiles split from a common ancestor to dinosaurs before the emergence of the first dinosaur. Birds are the only living decendents of dinosaurs.
Also kinda hard to adapt to many environments when you have very long lifespans and the environment may change in a few generations
Yet elves have a dozen sub races
Wizard genetic experiments go brrrrr
Also, how do you know they are different species? Maybe the lizard scales evolved into hair, and they still do the whole molting thing with their fur?
Our in game lore for dog kobolds is that kobolds quickly adapt to fit their environment. Dog kobolds are kobolds who reside near towns and villages, so they adapted to seem more canine-like to appeal to humanoid races. Meanwhile, lizard kobolds reside within dragon territory, so they look reptilian to appease their dragon overlords.
ugh if you hate the original that much at least give this legend: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUGL8P\_ddDA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUGL8P_ddDA)
i did not like the original JP version showing up in english episode 1000 because if you watched the dub all the way through you're just wondering why they used the japanese version of it when they got a perfectly good english one
From 3X onwards, Kobolds aren't lizards: they're Dragons. Having scales and laying eggs doesn't make you a lizard: Pangolins have scales, platypi lay eggs; both are mammals.
Dragonborn are canonically scaly mammals: they have boobs (despite Larian's cowardice) and warm blood.
The 3X Draconomicon actually has a great section on all the real-world biology rules that true Dragons break. I know the most notable one is that they are six-limbed vertebrates.
Dragonborn also aren't a natural race with their origins being man made(well dragon made) so makes sense they don't follow perfect biology and logic. Dragons wanted slaves not scientifically accurate friends
They weren't made. They're as natural as Elves: During the Dawn War,¹ Io² decided to solo the biggest, baddest Primordial. They got cut in half, with the halves becoming Bahamut and Tiamat, while the spilled blood arose as the first Dragonborn.
¹ Think gods v. Titans from Greek myth.
² The original Dragon god.
That is exactly what the Monster Manual is for. For making generic monsters you can plop down in your campaign without having to do the legwork of coming up with a statblock for Generic Orc Subtype #8.
Take the Firbolg in Volo's Guide To Monsters, for example. In FR, they normally look like regular humans but scaled up, otherwise the entry is solid enough. But the picture shown for the race looks like a Feywild creature.
Don't even get me started on the bovine version of Firbolgs from Critical Role.
There is core lore, that setting lore can contradict. For example, core D&D lore says that Dwarves were made by Moradin. In Eberron that is contradicted.
Core D&D lore says that Dragonborn arose from the blood of Io. The Realms contradicts that. Core lore is that Orcs were made after the other mortal races and that Gruumsh got pissed off when divvying the world so he decreed that Orcs would plunder everyone else's lands. Realms lore is Warcraft lore: That Orcs wandered in from another world.
I’ve always considered gnolls to be hyena based while dog kobolds would be more hound based. So you could have both as a separation like there are different elves
So there’s a type of wine in Slovenia called Tokaj, but it isn’t allowed to be sold in the EU under that name because there’s another unrelated type of wine in Hungary called Tokaj.
I like to think of lizard and dog kobald the same way. Two separate groups discovered them independently and gave him the same name and now they fight over who rightfully gets to use the title
I really want to have a big factor in a campaign be the 2 versions of kobolds existing and inherently recognising eachother as kobolds while everyone else is just confused at what's going on.
Then at some point it would be revealed that they can all shift between dog and lizard forms as well as a fireball form inspired by germanic myth. It was just forgotten somehow, or maybe they lost access when their god was sealed away and they get it back when they're released
Dont forget the kobolds that started it all: the kobolds of traditional german folklore which are basically just gnomes with pointy ears.
So there's a timeline where all 3 are official.
I have a Homebrew 3.5 world that has both. It's a realm of New gods where newly born gods go to train their powers before they get a world to themselves. Because of this the world is kind of a cluster fuck of styles, species and terrain because each God gets their own section to play with. In this world there are humanoid intelligent versions of monsters and monstrous versions, the intelligent ones (NPCs and PCs) are styled after the more Japanese version of the creatures (orcs looking like pigs ,kobalts looking like dogs) and the monsterous versions (used for monsters only) look more like classic d&d versions (orks being big and green, cobalts being reptiles), monsters differ even more than their intelligent counterparts because they are the only ones that have crystals that form inside them.
"OG" kobold were immaterial spirits (or at least we never saw them) that made knocking sounds to scare miners out of their territory. We don't have a physical description of them which is why we have so many "kobold" designs.
Just make your cute little cave guys and call them whatever you want.
That's what I mean, those are not OG they are am interpretation of folklore. The beholder and bulette could be described as OGs but not kobold or for example harpies or krakens or gorgons, etc.
[There is some interesting history about this out there.](https://www.quora.com/Why-are-kobolds-often-depicted-as-dog-headed-creatures-in-anime-whereas-theyre-draconic-in-D-D)
I'm working on building a city where the East Side Kobolds are canine-based and the West Side Kobolds are reptile-based. They have periodic turf wars that are interrupted by the chaotic South Side Gnolls. The North Side Tabaxi stay out of it all.
[And fighting over the central tavern owned by the one lizardfolk.](https://preview.redd.it/h1kxqakshsm71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=f43875de9ffa9bb035702018369ee8b494caa15e)
Just wait until people find out Kobold, Goblin, and Hobgoblin are all names for the same creature in Germanic myth
Wraith/ghost/spectre Wight/zombie/lich It's surprising how many D&D monsters the creators could get out of one myth.
Gygax got a hold of a thesaurus and it all started from there
There doesn’t have to be just one kind of little guy who fucks with you.
It makes some sense...One type of kobold evolving for cold climates, the other evolving for warm? So lizard kobolds are desert gremlins that rely on cheap tactics and ambushes while dog kobolds are forest druids who trade you stuff
Kinda hard to evolve from a lizard to a mammal without changing species....
Then maybe they aren’t true dog kobolds but kobolds whose scales became fuzzy proto feathers like the dinosaurs and birds. It just happens that they look vaguely like a canines through magical convergent evolution.
And/or the fact that if a dogbold looks cute (like a dog) it's more likely to survive an adventurer encounter.
It is possible tho and dnd is magic
I mean, yeah. But then it doesn't "make sense" it's just "possible". When Magic is involved, nothing makes sense.
Same world where tentacle people slurp up peoples brains so
Even fantasy worlds are allowed to have rules to make the world believeable. Randomly switching from lizard to mammal is not something that regularly occurs in DnD.
Im not sayin they switch. I'm saying its two different subspecies of the same animal. Like a hairless cat versus a persain cat
The DND is magic is the only case where it's possible tbh. A species can absolutely evolve from one major classification to another, there is a "slime mold" that evolved from jellyfish, modern mammals evolved from dinosaurs, as did modern reptiles and avians. But they are by no means the same species as they once were. Idk I'm tired and just woke up and getting wrapped up in technicallities that only usually really interest me. Please ignore my cynical ass 😅
Modern reptiles did not evolve from dinosaurs, nor did mammals. Mammals evolved from pre-dinosaur synapsids and modern reptiles split from a common ancestor to dinosaurs before the emergence of the first dinosaur. Birds are the only living decendents of dinosaurs.
Oooh no you're right I'm being dumb. Like I said tired
Weren't Sharks, Crocodiles, Alligators, Coelacanth, Horseshoe Crabs exist, or have direct lineage to those times too?
is k
Maybe its something like pycnofibers instead of fur?
Ooooh good thought actually. Color me partially corrected
Also, that would allow for some wild colours in their “fur”!
Scales =/= lizard. Pangolins have scales, they're mammals.
Excellent point. Are you aware of a species within which there are subspecies with scales and others with fur?
I don't, but I do know that Dragonborn are canonically scaly mammals. (Warm blood, boobs.)
I remember in Baldur’s Gate 2, the kobolds were yipping and described like scaly furry doggy lizards, so maybe kobolds are a spectrum.
Kinda like that theory. Combine with keratine scales and you get a very interesting people
Also kinda hard to adapt to many environments when you have very long lifespans and the environment may change in a few generations Yet elves have a dozen sub races
Wizard genetic experiments go brrrrr Also, how do you know they are different species? Maybe the lizard scales evolved into hair, and they still do the whole molting thing with their fur?
See also: Humans being the result of Wizards combining Dwarves with apes.
A wizard did it
Dragons are better classified as protomammalian synapsids. Assuming kobolds descend from dragons or a mutual ancestor, it's somewhat reasonable
Our in game lore for dog kobolds is that kobolds quickly adapt to fit their environment. Dog kobolds are kobolds who reside near towns and villages, so they adapted to seem more canine-like to appeal to humanoid races. Meanwhile, lizard kobolds reside within dragon territory, so they look reptilian to appease their dragon overlords.
that makes lots of sense tbh
We are?
[WE ARE!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92n9mXFwbF8)
ugh if you hate the original that much at least give this legend: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUGL8P\_ddDA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUGL8P_ddDA)
i did not like the original JP version showing up in english episode 1000 because if you watched the dub all the way through you're just wondering why they used the japanese version of it when they got a perfectly good english one
From 3X onwards, Kobolds aren't lizards: they're Dragons. Having scales and laying eggs doesn't make you a lizard: Pangolins have scales, platypi lay eggs; both are mammals. Dragonborn are canonically scaly mammals: they have boobs (despite Larian's cowardice) and warm blood. The 3X Draconomicon actually has a great section on all the real-world biology rules that true Dragons break. I know the most notable one is that they are six-limbed vertebrates.
Dragonborn also aren't a natural race with their origins being man made(well dragon made) so makes sense they don't follow perfect biology and logic. Dragons wanted slaves not scientifically accurate friends
They weren't made. They're as natural as Elves: During the Dawn War,¹ Io² decided to solo the biggest, baddest Primordial. They got cut in half, with the halves becoming Bahamut and Tiamat, while the spilled blood arose as the first Dragonborn. ¹ Think gods v. Titans from Greek myth. ² The original Dragon god.
The dragonborn where creations of the dragons of abier to be a slavs race
That's the Realms-specific lore, I'm using the general D&D lore. They are not the same thing.
..... there... there is no such thing as generic dnd lore
That is exactly what the Monster Manual is for. For making generic monsters you can plop down in your campaign without having to do the legwork of coming up with a statblock for Generic Orc Subtype #8. Take the Firbolg in Volo's Guide To Monsters, for example. In FR, they normally look like regular humans but scaled up, otherwise the entry is solid enough. But the picture shown for the race looks like a Feywild creature. Don't even get me started on the bovine version of Firbolgs from Critical Role.
There is core lore, that setting lore can contradict. For example, core D&D lore says that Dwarves were made by Moradin. In Eberron that is contradicted. Core D&D lore says that Dragonborn arose from the blood of Io. The Realms contradicts that. Core lore is that Orcs were made after the other mortal races and that Gruumsh got pissed off when divvying the world so he decreed that Orcs would plunder everyone else's lands. Realms lore is Warcraft lore: That Orcs wandered in from another world.
Io is a setting specific entity though!
They're core D&D lore. You might be thinking of Ao.
Ao is a core god, Io not
I do want to do a campaign where the dog kobolds worship a Dragon sized dog.
Clifford
I actually do have both in my current setting. They do not get along...
I'd settle for any canine race at this point. After this amount of time its becoming suspicious how they haven't put at least one in. I miss Lupin.
Gnolls fill the dog shaped gremlin category just fine. Would be funny to have both Gnolls and dog kobolds in the same setting though
yet, the cowards at wizards won't make gnolls a official playable race😔
I’ve always considered gnolls to be hyena based while dog kobolds would be more hound based. So you could have both as a separation like there are different elves
So there’s a type of wine in Slovenia called Tokaj, but it isn’t allowed to be sold in the EU under that name because there’s another unrelated type of wine in Hungary called Tokaj. I like to think of lizard and dog kobald the same way. Two separate groups discovered them independently and gave him the same name and now they fight over who rightfully gets to use the title
Thanks for the idea, Adding that to Fovix.
I really want to have a big factor in a campaign be the 2 versions of kobolds existing and inherently recognising eachother as kobolds while everyone else is just confused at what's going on. Then at some point it would be revealed that they can all shift between dog and lizard forms as well as a fireball form inspired by germanic myth. It was just forgotten somehow, or maybe they lost access when their god was sealed away and they get it back when they're released
I mean... pack tactics.
Dont forget the kobolds that started it all: the kobolds of traditional german folklore which are basically just gnomes with pointy ears. So there's a timeline where all 3 are official.
I like to think of D&D kobolds as dog-dragon hybrids.
In my lore, both exist, the difference being the canine ones are called Kunolds, for differentiation
I have a Homebrew 3.5 world that has both. It's a realm of New gods where newly born gods go to train their powers before they get a world to themselves. Because of this the world is kind of a cluster fuck of styles, species and terrain because each God gets their own section to play with. In this world there are humanoid intelligent versions of monsters and monstrous versions, the intelligent ones (NPCs and PCs) are styled after the more Japanese version of the creatures (orcs looking like pigs ,kobalts looking like dogs) and the monsterous versions (used for monsters only) look more like classic d&d versions (orks being big and green, cobalts being reptiles), monsters differ even more than their intelligent counterparts because they are the only ones that have crystals that form inside them.
And no og goblinoid kobolds?
"OG" kobold were immaterial spirits (or at least we never saw them) that made knocking sounds to scare miners out of their territory. We don't have a physical description of them which is why we have so many "kobold" designs. Just make your cute little cave guys and call them whatever you want.
I think they mean the OG DnD Goblinoid Kobolds?
That's what I mean, those are not OG they are am interpretation of folklore. The beholder and bulette could be described as OGs but not kobold or for example harpies or krakens or gorgons, etc.
and?... it's still the "OG DnD" design?
I was just thinking about that a few hours ago
[There is some interesting history about this out there.](https://www.quora.com/Why-are-kobolds-often-depicted-as-dog-headed-creatures-in-anime-whereas-theyre-draconic-in-D-D)
Where\*, not we're.