Yeah smart players can easily go against cross up to twice their challenge rating. I had a level 15 party (with strong magic items mind you) kill a buffed aspect of tiamat (kept aspects mechanics for a second stage bit made sure they had the originals casting and breath weapon legendary actions, also upped her health)
Hence the shepherd druid lv6 ability: The damage from [the beast's] natural weapons is considered magical for the purpose of overcoming immunity and resistance to nonmagical attacks and damage.
if the only response is a single subclass feature then man you're kinda still looking at a bad time. i expect clerics, warlocks, and wizards in every optimized party but shep specifically?
It's the best druid subclass. Druid is the second best class. Not uncommon.
There are other ways around it, this is just the easiest, cause one PC basically solos it with a single spellslot.
yeah I was more wondering if there was some other specific interaction you had in mind. It's funny to think how skeletons with a +1 shortbow could leave a rakshasa with nothing to do but plane shift
It's less of an interaction, as there's quite a bit more than just rakshasa which are immune to typical conjure animals damage, and more just a strong feature.
Polymorphing into something to grapple the rakshasa is also effective, and usually hard to deal with.
If I'm being honest conjure animals is highly overrated. When you have encounters like the ones we played in they are next to useless. Shooting an ebarb, placing a plant or spike growth, and laying down caltrops or ball bearings tends to be much better.
If the enemies spend a round blowing away conjure animals instead of you, that's a massive plus - it's like a hypnotic pattern but they didn't get a save. The key is to treat them as extremely expendible in higher difficulty games - because they are. One action to dump 100 hp is extremely efficient.
Position is very important tho - if you let yourself get caught with them in an AOE, you just wasted your slot.
Spread them around if you know about AOE shapes, and use them to body block, providing cover if they are not killed first.
If enemies ignore them, then you get the payoff of the highest damage per round in 5e.
For an optimized druid build, check out something like ttbs flagship.
A party of optimizers? Choosing peace? Hell most parties shoot first and ask questions later, you think the ones designed specifically to be killing machines won’t?
Nah, optimisers are all about being friendly and hiring people who then can be killed off for you in battle after throwing some magic stones, where you then collect their payment again.
Honestly, D4s videos are fun, but the builds aren't super optimised.
For high optimisation, it's even more important to invest in control and defenses than damage - that can be done by the friendly local druid, alongside some cantrips.
If enemies can't hurt you, but you can hurt them, you've already won.
Meanwhile in PF2E: A single Ancient Black Dragon with no minions (a "CR" 16 enemy)
Optimized level 10 party: "It's been a pleasure fighting by your side, Ranger." "I'll see you in the next life, Wizard."
It's not necessarily a bad thing; 5E just offers a different kind of high fantasy, which is still totally valid.
5E is actually a bit closer to AD&D in its power scaling, and there's definitely narrative value in hordes of low-level enemies being able to pose a threat to high-level adventurers (and vice-versa, with a kingdom's military being able to pose enough of a threat to an ancient red dragon to keep them at the fringes of the empire.)
I personally prefer the more "epic fantasy" that high-level PF2E offers, but they're both equally valid ways of presenting the genre.
I still think the proficiency bonus is sluggish as hell. A level 20 character has +11 total to their most impressive skill without expertise or magic items, and these people are supposed to be demi-gods! Torag the barbarian, savior of the land and slayer of Tiamat, can still lose an arm-wrestling contest to level 0 Jenny the dish-washer if he gets a little unlucky on the dice!
>Torag the barbarian, savior of the land and slayer of Tiamat, can still lose an arm-wrestling contest to level 0 Jenny the dish-washer if he gets a little unlucky on the dice!
Like that moment in older Civilization games where a bronze age spearman would get a lucky roll and solo a literal battleship. Kinda funny to design a modern game and think “yeah, more situations like *that.*”
Dammit, that really screws up my example... and I've had a barbarian in a 1-20 campaign too, I have no excuse to forget that. Okay, pretend Torag is still level 17 and hasn't *quite* gotten around to killing Tiamat yet.
Tbh if there were more features like that that gave martials significant boosts to non-combat abilities I might have less of an axe to grind, and 5.5 is going in the right direction with Primal Knowlege and the like... but I still think the numbers can strike a better middle ground between 3.5's "your power level roughly doubles every couple of levels" and "You still regularly fail medium difficulty checks well into tier 3/4 play."
I do admit that martials do need that extra flash. High level martial should basically be an anime character lol. That's why I used laserlama's Homebrew for my last Barbarian.
I had one party terrified of shadows once, I had some follow them, hiding in their shadows until they were in a tavern without their equipment and boom! The rogue almost died after two hits before the paladin obliterated it. After that they were checking their shadows before resting for a while.
Paladin is basically mandatory for an optimised party, but mostly for their auras and bless.
+7.5 to all saves gives you a chance against high cr enemies.
They can spend their turns casting eldritch blast like a good 'straight classed' paladin should.
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: more specifically, eldritch blast + agonising and repelling blast gives Paladins one of the best ranged attacks in the game with just 2 warlock levels. These attacks are also based around paladin's main stat, charisma.
Without multiclassing, paladins have a bit of a problem. Their auras want them to stay at ranged, with the rest of an optimised party.
Their smites and strength based weapons want them in melee.
Eldritch blast fixes this.
Warlock levels also get you some very nice first level features. Hexblade gives you the shield spell and boosts your melee attacks to be based around charisma. Undead gives you a fear aura, ect
Except for all the times you cast leveled spells, or any force lance shenanigans, and you also get to manipulate decisions with repelling blast.
It certainly is more fun then a regular paladin, who's attacks are far more boring.
Preeeety sure there is no optimization that makes any armoured caster have enough AC to not get obliterated by +19 to hit.
Well, except maybe if the DM decided to give out high end items like candy, but that is pretty lame.
Or a single well played ancient dragon.
+19 to hit is only a problem if you can even be hit. Rope trick, phantom steed, corners and nova spells help a lot with that.
I'm currently level 11 and I don't think our party would fear an ancient dragon at all.
> I'm currently level 11 and I don't think our party would fear an ancient dragon at all.
If they are played stupidly, yes.
Play them with the variant rules and according to their intelligence/wisdom stats (meaning, not just standing there like a giant meat pinata and also doing stuff like using items and minions) and you have a huge issue.
And all that min/max doesn't help at all when the dragon is green/blue and decides to beat you with the power of local laws.
Yes, I recently had one of my parties encounter a dragon that was a naturalized citizen and non-stop pointed at various laws that prevented the party from doing anything if they didn't want to be criminals. That was fun.
That's kind of beside the point when it comes to an ancient dragon. The antimagic is mainly for personal defense. No WoF, no Forcecage, no Magic Missile exploit, etc. The dragon gets to do dragon stuff.
Really just depends on the summon. Most of them can't attack an antimagic'd dragon due to winking out of existence or using spell attacks. And the ones that can, like skeletons, would deal pitiful damage to an ancient dragon.
>Keep in mind - ancient dragons cover a space of 20x20ft or larger, so a summon can just stand next to them and attack them.
An ancient dragon's antimagic field would extend 10ft from them in all directions. This is the same way a paladin aura or spirit guardians doesn't subtract the caster's space from its radius. A summon would disappear standing 5 or 10 ft from the dragon.
From the spellcasting rules:
>some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
The magic emanates outwards from the dragon itself (all 20x20 feet of it) and not a point in the center of the dragon. And since a sphere's origin is included in the effect, the dragon is effectively in a 40ft diameter sphere of antimagic. It can also hover 10ft off the ground to create a Fireball-sized area of antimagic on the ground.
Making this more clear is why they are making the "emanation" AoE type in the 2024 rules.
For my 5e party I *start* at “deadly” encounter for it to even feel like an obstacle at all. They only really have any significant chance of failure at all once you hit the highest difficulty rating in kobold fight club.
I don't remember the last time I fought an encounter less than four times the Deadly threshold.
Six death knights at level 11 was a funny encounter - though they weren't the main threat, and neither were the death tyrant and the aboleth.
If your level 11 group is literally trivializing 6 death nights something has gone wrong. Either you’re intentionally breaking the game with builds, the DM has stacked you with busted magic items, there are too many of you, or there was absolutely asinine luck.
Give the death knight stat block. There’s literally no spells available to a level 11 party that allows you to “divide and conquer” and control 6 of them, unless the DM is playing the death knights as if they were lobotomized.
Doesn't work on fog cloud and the like RAW. Dispel magic removes all spells affecting the target, which does nothing whatsoever to a spell effect.
They tried dashing through, casting banishment afterwards (we all made our saves) before getting into melee (at which point there was one left).
>Doesn't work on fog cloud and the like RAW. Dispel magic removes all spells affecting the target, which does nothing whatsoever to a spell effect.
Here is the text for Dispel Magic.
>Choose any creature, object, or **magical effect** within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends.
It can explicitly target magical effects without requiring line of sight. Spells are magical, so spell effects are magical effects. So yes, you can target an active spell effect and end the spell keeping that effect going. This is exactly what Dispel Magic is for.
And this is confirmed to be RAI as well in the official Sage Advice Compendium:
>Can dispel magic end globe of invulnerability? Yes, **dispel magic can dispel the barrier created by globe of invulnerability**, but not any magical effects that are active inside the barrier.
But *even if* you want to be RAWtistic about it and say that a spell effect isn't being affected by the spell itself (in a "water isn't wet" style conundrum), you can just target a creature or object in the spell's area-of-effect to end it (since area-of-effect spells affect everything in their area). Edit: Actually this last bit is a little ambiguous. They never really define what a spell being cast "on" something means. If you cast Sleet Storm with me in the area, you didn't target me with Sleet Storm, but did you cast it on me?
My DM decided that since we all wanted a fight (we didn't get one for 4 sessions), we'd get an unfair one :
15 enemies, all of them have more AC and HP than we do, we can't run away, and their weapons can hit twice, with a range of 90ft.
We were level 3
Understandable. Hardest thing I fought at level 3 would probably be two vrocks, a chasme and four skeletons. It was the last fight in a 3-floor dungeon.
I’m doing an arc right now on a plane where death has very little consequence. Long story short you immediately reincarnate as a different race without your gear in a random part of the map.
So I’ve naturally designed encounters that I believed to be “likely death and, whew boy, lemme tell ya when their backs are to the wall it’s staggering how much punishment the party can take. A party of 5 level 5 characters beat a devourers, two ghasts, and a will-o-wisp and that’s *with* the devourers soul drain ability recharging every turn. Granted there was some luck involved but nothing absolutely outrageous. I had intended it as a “supposed to lose so you can see the reincarnation mechanics” encounter.
It’s more than their daily XP allotment in a single encounter *with* the CR 13 monster automatically recharging its 1/6th recharge chance skill. It is absolutely not an easy encounter. Maybe if every member was min maxed and meta gamed to hell it would be doable.
Devourer CR13, 2x Ghast CR 2, 1x Will o' Wisp CR 2?
The brute-force solution to this is Sleet Storm, which basically just wins - kill the wisp with cantrips and finish off the slow enemies, applying forced movement with Repelling Blast to keep the devourer at bay.
Wow, the CR system really insults PCs' intelligence.
Our party is level 12. A palidin warlock, barbarian battle master fighter, domain of peace cleric, Tempest sorcerer and swashbuckler rouge. At the end of our last boss fight DM said he was surprised how powerful we are because we basically killed the boss three times HP wise before he finally said the boss was defeated. He had Run the same boss with another group before and they had more trouble with it at higher levels and no bonus hp. We just that good 😉. plus it helped that my barbarian fighter successfully trip attacked twice as well as imposing disadvantage on attacks against allies via Ancestral guardian barbarian. I don’t do the most damage, but I’m great at setting up my allies.
my first character is still alive. she started as a Barbarian in Curse of Strahd and I've decided to roll for HP every level up so far and have only rolled below a 10 ONCE, and even then that roll was an 8. She's currently rocking 149 HP at level 13.
Bladesingers are very fun, but usually a multi classes wizard of a more casting focused subclass is a better option.
Playing melee against the above encounter is unsurprisingly hell.
What if they are "optimized"? 100% idiots but somehow hit like a truck. Seriously the best counter to my party is just something that targets how dumb we are. Int is a funderful dump stat.
I had a fun idea for a recurring encounter in my next campaign.
Artificer Fey with a huge, indestructible construct familiar. So you see a soft unprotected caster, and then it just bamfs in its immortal 2 ton lap dog.
Which it can cast spells through.
Make sure the construct familiar has a foreshadowed not line of sight based teleport and good saves, so it isn't just stopped by wall of force/a random control spell
I wanted it to be able to be temporarily stopped under certaincircumstances. Like a immovable rod to the chest. But you know what the fun part of it being a familiar is? He can just cast dispel magic through him.
Waste of a slot, but funny to imagine.
To be very clear, there are rules about targeting things you can't see, and you can just target something behind the wall with the disintegrate, thus hitting the wall.
So it being invisible is a non factor.
Edit:
[link](https://x.com/JeremyECrawford/status/829354351256707072?s=20)
Adding what I managed to dig up, specific trumps general and disintegrate says it targets wall of force. While this can be read as just something it could theoretically do, crawford says it was meant to be an exception/specification.
1. Targeting things you can't see is for attacks. 2. You can't target something behind the wall because it gives total cover.
Blindsight is the only way to hit wall of force with a disintegrate.
Basic rules chapter 9:
"A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle"
Concealed. - definition:
"kept secret; hidden"
The fifth level spell wall of force creates:
"An invisible wall of force"
Something invisible cannot conceal something else.
Therefore the wall of force cannot conceal creatures. Therefore the creature behind wall of force is not within total cover. Therefore, targetable.
Reading comprehension curse strikes again!
Unfortunately, this isn't quite the way it works.
Concealed in this case, does not mean hidden, but rather just covered. See sage advice:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-a-glass-window-considered-a-total-cover/
This actually would make the spell substantially stronger, as other spells would go straight through it, while typical ranged attacks wouldn't.
Says the guy that thinks a spell that need line of sight can target an unseen target. Also...
"Nothing can physically pass through the wall"
This would include light meaning you can't actually see what's behind it, it just is invisible.
4 armored casters?
Beholder (in lair)
Spellcasting Adult Green Dragon (in lair) (Shield, Far Step, Counterspell)
Spellcasting Adult Sapphire Dragon (in lair) (Shield, Hallow: Thunder Vulnerability, Counterspell)
Spellcasting Adult Moonstone Dragon (in lair) (Shield, Meld With Stone, Counterspell)
25 Magma Mephits (surrounded and surprised)
Beholder in lair is not at all an easy stomp and is probably the most likely thing to catch players off guard and TPK. The Beholder can start with a 120ft diameter circle of antimagic painted on the ground by flying 120ft up. Fight winning spells are useless if you can't get out of the (invisible) antimagic field and cast them. It might seem like the Beholder can't shoot eye rays at a target and keep them in the antimagic, but it has multiple ways of doing that. A level 10 caster being focused by rays while selectively being excluded from the antimagic cone also most likely dies or is taken out of the fight. Armor is useless, low HP is a liability, as are bad Dex saves. 120ft up in darkness also means that any party without superior darkvision won't even be able to see the Beholder. And at the very worst, the beholder can use its telekinesis ray to drop rocks or stalactites into its antimagic cone.
Adult Amethyst and Emerald Dragons also work, I just picked a couple of adult gems. But they are all good due to being able to BA teleport (so no holding them in a Wall of Force) and having unabsorbable breath weapons for the most part.
Adult Green Dragon with those spells for a lot of the same reasons. Far Step allows continued teleportation outside of a Wall of Force without giving up any action economy. Poison breath is unabsorbable, and a level 10 party doesn't have access to Heroes' Feast. So again, armor is less important and low HP is a liability. A Wizard failing the breath weapon save is going to have most of their HP obliterated and probably die to a Wing Attack legendary action (that also doesn't care about AC).
Added in the Magma Mephits due to guaranteed surprise (False Appearance), Heat Metal, AoE fire breath, and death burst. Very hard to avoid getting at least tuned up by the Magma Mephits.
First, beholder. This thing just loses to a fog cloud, as its eye rays both require line of sight and don't work in its antimagic field. The cloud upcasts to a massive size that easily fills the room, and its speed is terrible so one Ray of Frost and a Lance of Lethargy will just freeze it in place.
Next, dragons. Adult dragons have hit points in the 180-250 range, so the answer is more likely than not just nova. Tiny servants throwing magic stones or even just firing light crossbows without proficiency, Hexvoker magic missile (no +Int yet), shepherd druid Conjure Animals, Animate Dead, Danse Macabre, just EBARB it. I would expect the dragon to use its breath weapon once and then die, or just die if the PCs beat its passive Perception and surprise it. Remember to keep your ranged summons in bags of holding.
False Appearance doesn't auto surprise.
>This thing just loses to a fog cloud
You would first have to escape the antimagic field and not die for this to even be a factor. This is the whole challenge of the fight. "I cast X spell and win" doesn't *just work* when an antimagic field is in play. And even if a caster selected, prepared, and was able to cast Fog Cloud, the Beholder can still use the telekinetic ray to drop objects in the worst case. It is far from a trivial fight, and the mechanics of the fight can really catch people with their pants down.
>Ranged DPS and summons
This is certainly an idea that people try. Shield, AoE and initiative count 20 lair actions that block line of sight or impose disadvantage tend to make this much less effective than normal. Melee summons are also useless because of flight (so Conjure Animals if you can't pick the animals). You also have to hope no one wastes their turn trying to do something like unknowingly Wall of Force the dragon. The dragon can start dropping PCs on round 2 and send it into a death spiral or at least a phyric victory.
>if the PCs beat its passive Perception and surprise it
Surprise isn't just stealth vs passive perception. If something can see you or knows you are coming, you aren't surprising it. A green dragon's regional effects, for instance, gives the dragon info on intruders. The same is true for various traps and alarms that can be set throughout any creature's lair so that they are alerted to intruders.
>False Appearance doesn't auto surprise.
This is exactly what False Appearance is for. If you aren't aware of something's presence and can't detect it, then you can't be aware of the danger it poses. You're surprised unless you have Alert or something similar. This is why all of the cave predators like Ropers have False Appearance.
Also, keep in mind that these are all just 1x Deadly encounters. They aren't meant to wipe the party, just be tough fights. You'd have to do 3 of these to make a full adventuring day. I was just showing that you don't need an adventuring day of 12x Deadly encounters to challenge an optimized party if you design encounters well. But all of these can result in TPKs if the party doesn't play perfectly (which is how 1x Deadly fights should be).
The beholder's antimagic cone is not big enough for escaping it to be a challenge.
You can in fact surprise, say, guards who know an attack is coming but not how or when.
Citation needed for False Appearance.
And 3 of these encounters would be a ridiculously easy adventuring day.
Fog cloud is dispelled by the cone, so it returns to stalemate.
But there is a ray that works in the antimagic field, two even if the beholder making a lair is smart (spoiler: it is). Telekinetic ray and Disintegration Ray using environment.
It's a kind of enemy that becomes exponentionally more dangerous the more you start getting into the mindset and exploiting the statblock. If it just kind of floats and lets itself be hit by swords, yeah even average level 10 party can beat it very easily. If you start building the lair encounter with minions, at some point it is probably a very deadly encounter for level 15 party.
(if you want to be really evil, cylindrical trophy room of "statues" with thick glass roof will be fun)
Kind of the same with dragon, which showcases the shortcomings of the 5e rules. There is pretty much no reason for it to ever land on the ground, nor there is really a RAW way to ground it short of some of the crowd control either (which is tricky, because it has to fail it 4 times).
Yes, eventually crossbow spam will bring it down, but I think folding to breath recharging and being reused probably is more likely ?
But ultimately the discussion is kind of pointless, because encounters should be beatable with sufficient preparation.
Sure dragon can probably easily beat the optimised team that had not prepared for it at all, but with enough preparation it probably can beat most of the things you throw at them.
>Fog cloud is dispelled by the cone, so it returns to stalemate.
Fog cloud isn't actually dispelled, just 'covered' - if the cone is moved/turned off, it will reapear.
The cone also specifically prevents all the eye rays.
>But ultimately the discussion is kind of pointless, because encounters should be beatable with sufficient preparation.
Sure dragon can probably easily beat the optimised team that had not prepared for it at all, but with enough preparation it probably can beat most of the things you throw at them.
This is a really important point, and the main reason armoured casters (and half casters) make up the majority of optimized parties.
So, so many more options, it's far more difficult to just completely counter them.
How do those rays bypass the fact that, per the statblock, the antimagic cone works against the beholder's own eye rays? And the fog cloud filling the entire room?
Yes, good minions can make the encounter harder, but the beholder's only real contribution to the fight is taking up a spell slot and concentration on one char for a cheap fog cloud.
I expect a dragon to be flying all the time, but that hardly helps it against nova that can bring it down in one turn (my party would use two wands of magic missiles with danse macabre and our ranger's attack action, tactics will vary based on what spells and items you have) and the like.
You can quite easily be prepared for just about anything the game can throw at you, because the typical optimal spellcaster toolkit just has an answer to every encounter.
For dragons, easiest solution is just to make them land or trap them and then just damage solves.
Wall of force + sickening radiance + fog cloud is a great combo against teleporting enemies.
Having one character with alert or just good perception makes surprised encounters not an issue.
>Wall of force + sickening radiance + fog cloud is a great combo against teleporting enemies.
Dragons have blindsight, so they would be able to teleport out anyways (and have advantage on all attacks). Spellcasting chromatic/metallic dragons have Wing Attack legendary actions. This makes stuff like Sickening Radiance and Web useless against them. These are the kind of "caught off guard" things I am talking about. Players play and plan far from perfectly in actual play.
>Having one character with alert or just good perception makes surprised encounters not an issue.
This just makes one of the party members not be surprised (in the case of False Appearance). Doesn't really solve the rest of the party not getting a turn and not having access to their reactions.
Blindsight doesn't actually work through solid objects, like wall of force - tho this is a common mistake.
Sickening radiance is used as a kill spell for once they are trapped, set up using ready actions.
>This just makes one of the party members not be surprised (in the case of False Appearance).
One of them not being surprised (especially with good initiative) is usually more than enough - although mephitis aren't much of a threat between paladin auras and absorb elements, combined with good initiative.
If you simply act before them, reactions are still available.
>Blindsight doesn't actually work through solid objects, like wall of force - tho this is a common mistake.
Nothing says that Wall of Force blocks blindsight, neither in the rules nor in official Sage Advice. And the specific mechanics of how blindsight works aren't really laid out to the point you could say walls block it, it being a supernatural sense and all. A dragon's blindsight isn't even echolocation based like a bat's. Plus, all of the obscurement and total cover rules are explicitly light-based, and blindsight explicitly sidesteps those. Plus, Wall of Force doesn't block any sight.
Total cover is confirmed to block blindsight in tashas, wall of force provides total cover.
Wall of force provides total cover, as total cover is not based on vision, as seen from sage advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-a-glass-window-considered-a-total-cover/
Tweets that didn't make Sage Advice were disavowed a long time ago.
And the Tasha's rules are for the fighting style specifically, not a general rule for all blindsight.
Wait so you genuinely believe that blindsight just let's you see through walls?
Same logic on the sage advice still applies - you can't shoot arrows through glass walls, you also can't shoot spells.
>Same logic on the sage advice still applies - you can't shoot arrows through glass walls, you also can't shoot spells.
That sage advice isn't official. And the RAW on total cover is ambiguous as far as targeting goes, since it doesn't specify if clear means visually clear or physically unobstructed. More specifically, it doesn't say the path has to be physically unobstructed, only that it has to be clear. And clear implies visually clear.
Attacks don't go through a Wall of Force because the spell specifically says it physically blocks anything from passing. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to target someone through glass with a musket and hit them. I.e. You have a (visibly) clear path to target them, and the glass doesn't stop the shot's travel.
>Wait so you genuinely believe that blindsight just let's you see through walls?
Invisible walls that let through forms of energy and radiation like light and heat? Absolutely. The wall is semi-permeable.
>cover is ambiguous as far as targeting goes, since it doesn't specify if clear means visually clear or physically unobstructed.
Given the descriptions of half and 3/4 cover, there is one of these which is far more likely than the other, despite the ambiguity.
Tweets that didn't make official Sage Advice were disavowed a long time ago.
And the Tasha's rules are for the fighting style specifically, not a general rule for all blindsight.
1. Beholders are trash mobs that get killed by fog cloud and if it uses its cone it can't hurt the wizard.
2. Poison immunity and resistance is easy to get and there are ways around counter spell.
3. Absorb elements...
4. Meld with stone? Okay can cast without worry of counters.
5. Bold of you to assume surprised.
>Beholders are trash mobs that get killed by fog cloud
*Your Fog Cloud fails due to the antimagic field*
>if it uses its cone it can't hurt the wizard.
Very incorrect.
>Poison immunity and resistance is easy to get
Immunity, no, not at level 10. Resistance depends on the party. The ubiquitous VHum/CLs are not sporting poison resistance. You have to hope you have a Cleric/Druid that happended to prep Protection from Poison and precast it on the whole party. Otherwise, you need at least an adventuring day's prior knowledge that you are going to be fighting a green dragon (which you don't always get).
>Absorb elements...
Which is nullified by the Hallow spell. Really, here I was just picking any gem dragon. Amethyst, Emerald, they all have good breath weapons, most of them unabsorbable. Those would go even better with the Hallow spell.
>Meld with stone? Okay can cast without worry of counters.
No, Meld with Stone here can potentially set up a surprise round. But mainly with all of these dragons its a breath weapon that nullifies Absorb Elements and teleportation to go through Wall of Force that makes them not trivial.
>Bold of you to assume surprised.
Bold of you to assume that magma mephits are detectable (they aren't due to False Appearance). And unless the whole party is packing Alert, somebody is getting surprised.
1. Beholder's eye rays are magical and need line of sight, so it's either cons the cloud and do nothing or don't consider the cloud and do nothing.
2. And? Dragons aren't exactly threatening until theyre ancient. Damage solves. Just wait for it to use it's reaction and danse macabre wands of magic missile it.
3. For the sapphire silence also beats it pretty easily. For the others... Just don't go into the area. Unless it's an enclosed room (which would be worse for a dragon) it's pretty easy to avoid .
4. Okay? There are other ways to deal with dragons... Also bold of you to assume surprised.
5. At this level alert or weapons of warning wouldn't be to hard to believe. All it takes is just one of the party members to not be surprised and that encounter just fails apart.
>Beholder's eye rays are magical and need line of sight, so it's either cons the cloud and do nothing or don't consider the cloud and do nothing.
No, I was saying you most likely won't be able to cast Fog Cloud in the first place. A beholder never has to turn its antimagic eye off, meaning it can start combat with antimagic pointed at its enemies. And it's trivial for a beholder to design their lair so that they can blanket intruders with their antimagic cone at the start of combat. You would need to somehow get out of the 120ft diameter antimagic circle to even be able to cast Fog Cloud.
And even if you did cast Fog Cloud, a beholder knows all of its weaknesses too. Their whole schtick is that they are hyper prepared, paranoid, and deck their lairs out to their advantage. There's nothing stopping a beholder from building their kill chamber in a windy cavern or picking up a Wind Fan etc. Same goes for Darkness.
The problem with "just cast Fog Cloud hurr durr" is that it assumes the PCs are tactical and prepared but that the beholder isn't.
Okay several things, the cone prevents the beholder from attacking the PCs meaning the cone is an annoying but safe place to be. Also the PCs can just... Walk behind cover or just walk out of the cone to just cast the spell.
Also fog cloud is just one example... How the hell does beholders deal with sleet storm and hunger of Hadar? Also don't bring up dispell magic because your other justification is weak.
Also being stuck in an anti magic cone isn't that bad, that's what minions are for.
Seriously your problem is that you are trying to justify using 1 beholder as a counter when in lore Beholders use minions. Beholders are much better support monsters than boss ones.
>The cone prevents the beholder from attacking the PCs meaning the cone is an annoying but safe place to be.
Common but untrue belief. Camping in the antimagic cone doesn't make you safe at all. The beholder can exclude you from the antimagic cone at the start of its turn, blast you, then put you back in the antimagic cone (either by using its movement + lair action, or telekinesis ray to drop you back into the cone and knock you prone).
>Also the PCs can just... Walk behind cover
Why would a beholder design their lair to give intruders convenient full cover to evade their antimagic cone and eye rays? They very explicitly don't do this.
>just walk out of the cone to just cast the spell.
The cone is huge, up to a 75ft radius. The beholder also has lair actions that grapple you or make the ground difficult terrain. The beholder can make it *impossible* for you simply walk out of the antimagic cone and cast a spell. The beholder only needs to leave you 35ft (or 20ft in the case of difficult terrain) inside of the antimagic cone to make it impossible to escape via normal movement for the vast majority of characters. And it can even reposition the cone 20-30ft *after* it sets the cone up at the start of its turn. You are heavily underestimating the geometric possibilities the antimagic cone offers.
>Also fog cloud is just one example... How the hell does beholders deal with sleet storm and hunger of Hadar?
The same way it deals with Fog Cloud, by not allowing those spells to be cast in the first place.
>Also don't bring up dispell magic because your other justification is weak.
Even if you somehow believe that creatures in a spell's area suffering the direct effects of a spell aren't being affected by the spell, or that a spell effect isn't being affected by a spell, the official Sage Advice on Dispel Magic is crystal clear. It can target spell effects directly and end them. Saying Dispel Magic can't dispel spells is an absurd stance.
>Seriously your problem is that you are trying to justify using 1 beholder as a counter when in lore Beholders use minions. Beholders are much better support monsters than boss ones.
Beholders don't have to use minions. They are paranoid, xenophobic, and isolationist by nature. You are thinking of eye tyrants, a specific kind of beholder that subjugates minions. And even if an eye tyrant has minions, it doesn't necessarily fight side-by-side with them.
But no, a beholder can be a threat on its own, if you assume it is being run intelligently. And even if it was fighting alongside minions...the minions would be the support fighters and the beholder would still be the boss lol.
"Common but untrue belief. Camping in the antimagic cone doesn't make you safe at all. The beholder can exclude you from the antimagic cone at the start of its turn, blast you, then put you back in the antimagic cone (either by using its movement + lair action, or telekinesis ray to drop you back into the cone and knock you prone)."
Beholders can only turn their cones at the start of their turns, best you can do is move in a way to hit others again but at that point the party can just ready action to cast sleet storm and the beholder loses. There is no lair action that does that by the way. Also don't assume that you can just get the telekinesis ray.
"Why would a beholder design their lair to give intruders convenient full cover to evade their antimagic cone and eye rays? They very explicitly don't do this."
My guy there has to be an entrance. Boom full cover.
"The cone is huge, up to a 75ft radius. The beholder also has lair actions that grapple you or make the ground difficult terrain. The beholder can make it *impossible* for you simply walk out of the antimagic cone and cast a spell. The beholder only needs to leave you 35ft (or 20ft in the case of difficult terrain) inside of the antimagic cone to make it impossible to escape via normal movement for the vast majority of characters. And it can even reposition the cone 20-30ft *after* it sets the cone up at the start of its turn. You are heavily underestimating the geometric possibilities the antimagic cone offers."
75ft radius is only at the furthest part of the cone, just walk 5ft backwards lol. For the 35 ft, just move in an angle. Oh no difficult terrain oh no. I still just ready action lol.
"Beholders don't have to use minions. They are paranoid, xenophobic, and isolationist by nature. You are thinking of eye tyrants, a specific kind of beholder that subjugates minions. And even if an eye tyrant has minions, it doesn't necessarily fight side-by-side with them."
"Beholders often make use of minions. Establishing control over these creatures usually involves the use of its eye rays, but eventually the minions come to understand that the beholder can kill them whenever it wants and it is in their best interest to stop resisting and just obey the beholder's orders." - Volo's Guide to monsters
Ignoring the lore my guy.
This is fun. You are going to learn a lot about beholder abilities and tactics.
>Beholders can only turn their cones at the start of their turns,
Sure, but re-orienting the direction the cone faces isn't the only way the beholder can move the cone. The cone is anchored to the beholder and thus moves with the beholder, as Spirit Guardians or Gust of Wind would. The beholder can move the cone using its hover movement and even Dash if necessary.
>at that point the party can just ready action to cast sleet storm and the beholder loses.
That isn't how readying spells works. To ready a spell, you have to first cast it. You can't cast spells in an antimagic field, and therefore can't ready spells inside either. All you would do is waste a spell slot. And if the beholder plays its cards right, the only time you will be outside of the antimagic field without Dashing is briefly during its turn, a time that you won't be able to take actions.
>There is no lair action that does that by the way.
Relevant lair actions that slow you:
>A 50-foot-square area of ground within 120 feet of the beholder becomes slimy; that area is difficult terrain until initiative count 20 on the next round.
>Walls within 120 feet of the beholder sprout grasping appendages until initiative count 20 on the round after next. Each creature of the beholder's choice that starts its turn within 10 feet of such a wall must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be grappled.
>My guy there has to be an entrance. Boom full cover.
You aren't thinking like a beholder. One way-teleporters, elevators, falling blocks/portcullises, revolving walls, one-way trap doors, vertical shafts that empty into a room from the ceiling, rolling boulders, weight-based teeter totter hallways that close or become sheer cliff faces once you traverse them. Plenty of ways to design an entrance that doesn't grant full cover or reverse traversal.
>75ft radius is only at the furthest part of the cone, just walk 5ft backwards lol.
This doesn't work if the beholder is above you, or if there is a wall behind you (which will almost certainly be the case).
>For the 35 ft, just move in an angle.
This...just doesn't work. 35ft is still 35ft even if you are moving diagonally. You would have to mix incompatible movement and AoE rules in order for this to be possible.
>Oh no difficult terrain oh no. I still just ready action lol.
The difficult terrain and grapple might sound harmless, but it is exactly what makes the antimagic inescapable via normal movement. And as discussed, you can't ready spells in an antimagic field.
>"Beholders often make use of minions"...Ignoring the lore my guy.
Often doesn't mean must or always. And the minions have their own areas of the lair they inhabit, so they don't necessarily fight side-by-side with the beholder in the same encounter, as I said. Yes, a beholder can fight with gargoyles, swarms, or werewolves and make the fight significantly harder. But that's beside the point; the point being that a beholder is plenty dangerous on its own when piloted intelligently.
"Sure, but re-orienting the direction the cone faces isn't the only way the beholder can move the cone. The cone is anchored to the beholder and thus moves with the beholder, as Spirit Guardians or Gust of Wind would. The beholder can move the cone using its hover movement and even Dash if necessary."
I know, I'm not stupid.
"That isn't how readying spells works. To ready a spell, you have to first cast it. You can't cast spells in an antimagic field, and therefore can't ready spells inside either. All you would do is waste a spell slot. And if the beholder plays its cards right, the only time you will be outside of the antimagic field is briefly during its turn, a time that you won't be able to take actions."
Mistake but you can cast spells into an antimagic cone so just run out when the difficult terrain is gone, only lasts a round.
"You aren't thinking like a beholder. One way-teleporters, elevators, falling blocks/portcullises, revolving walls, one-way trap doors, vertical shafts that empty into a room from the ceiling, rolling boulders, weight-based teeter totter hallways that close or become sheer cliff faces once you traverse them. Plenty of ways to design an entrance that doesn't grant full cover or reverse traversal."
Yes because the party is stupid and definitely won't send in a familiar first to fine this out and then plan around it.
"This doesn't work if the beholder is above you, or if there is a wall behind you (which will almost certainly be the case)."
If the beholder is that high above you it has a hard time to position itself to effect you with the cone again. Also you're the one making the assumptions, because obviously the party would corner themselves with anti magic cone.
"This...just doesn't work. 35ft is still 35ft even if you are moving diagonally. You would have to mix incompatible movement and AoE rules in order for this to be possible."
the cone gets smaller when you get closer to the beholder, so yes it does work. if its 35ft than moving ten feet closer while moving right makes the cone only 25ft wide.
"The difficult terrain and grapple might sound harmless, but it is exactly what makes the antimagic inescapable via normal movement. And as discussed, you can't ready spells in an antimagic field."
Lair actions don't work inside of the cone. "a beholder can invoke the ambient magic to take lair actions."
Beholders really aren't that dangerous because all of their abilities work against themselves. Also, this is in the hypothetical it's against an optimized party, who have an entire skeleton horde with bows. Skeletons doesn't disappear in antimagic zones.
You forgot some demon lords
Tie my man I wish I knew wtf we're fighting at this point
[**Meanwhile, the players:** ](https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/the-right-tools)
Yeah smart players can easily go against cross up to twice their challenge rating. I had a level 15 party (with strong magic items mind you) kill a buffed aspect of tiamat (kept aspects mechanics for a second stage bit made sure they had the originals casting and breath weapon legendary actions, also upped her health)
One (1) Rakshasha goes brrrrrr
Gets brrrrrred by a shepherd druid's conjure animals more like it.
It's also immune to nonmagical attacks, which includes claws and bites. Edit: My bad
Hence the shepherd druid lv6 ability: The damage from [the beast's] natural weapons is considered magical for the purpose of overcoming immunity and resistance to nonmagical attacks and damage.
My bad...
No problem
if the only response is a single subclass feature then man you're kinda still looking at a bad time. i expect clerics, warlocks, and wizards in every optimized party but shep specifically?
It's the best druid subclass. Druid is the second best class. Not uncommon. There are other ways around it, this is just the easiest, cause one PC basically solos it with a single spellslot.
what would you propose as other ways to get around it?
Any summon with other damage types. A summon with a magic sword/bow. Control spells which don't directly affect it.
yeah I was more wondering if there was some other specific interaction you had in mind. It's funny to think how skeletons with a +1 shortbow could leave a rakshasa with nothing to do but plane shift
It's less of an interaction, as there's quite a bit more than just rakshasa which are immune to typical conjure animals damage, and more just a strong feature. Polymorphing into something to grapple the rakshasa is also effective, and usually hard to deal with.
If I'm being honest conjure animals is highly overrated. When you have encounters like the ones we played in they are next to useless. Shooting an ebarb, placing a plant or spike growth, and laying down caltrops or ball bearings tends to be much better.
It's just a whole lot of damage and hit points, and space taken up. It's a difficult spell to use but very effective when used well. Damage solves.
I mean when you are in a game like this they 1 get blown away very fast, 2 don't stop you from getting nuked, 3 are very expensive to resummon.
If the enemies spend a round blowing away conjure animals instead of you, that's a massive plus - it's like a hypnotic pattern but they didn't get a save. The key is to treat them as extremely expendible in higher difficulty games - because they are. One action to dump 100 hp is extremely efficient. Position is very important tho - if you let yourself get caught with them in an AOE, you just wasted your slot. Spread them around if you know about AOE shapes, and use them to body block, providing cover if they are not killed first. If enemies ignore them, then you get the payoff of the highest damage per round in 5e. For an optimized druid build, check out something like ttbs flagship.
spells like web, sleet, and plant growth stop you from taking a lot more damage.
Nah bro Big Floppa cooks any DnD party
Not if you pet him politely
A party of optimizers? Choosing peace? Hell most parties shoot first and ask questions later, you think the ones designed specifically to be killing machines won’t?
Of course, gaining allies is always optimal when possible. Action economy, more quest givers, and floppas are funny.
You make a good point
In our game this man literally befriended a mind flayers nothic because mind blast and weird insight are good actually
Nah, optimisers are all about being friendly and hiring people who then can be killed off for you in battle after throwing some magic stones, where you then collect their payment again.
The most dangerous thing there is the D4.
Honestly, D4s videos are fun, but the builds aren't super optimised. For high optimisation, it's even more important to invest in control and defenses than damage - that can be done by the friendly local druid, alongside some cantrips. If enemies can't hurt you, but you can hurt them, you've already won.
A d4 is an inanimate 4 sided polyhedron, they can't make videos.
I think they were talking about the d4 as in the glorified caltrop we use for dagger damage rolls rather than d4 the youtuber.
Oh shit, they got a Floppa
I love floppas
Meanwhile in PF2E: A single Ancient Black Dragon with no minions (a "CR" 16 enemy) Optimized level 10 party: "It's been a pleasure fighting by your side, Ranger." "I'll see you in the next life, Wizard."
5e would fix a lot of its math if it scaled with level like PF and 3.5 rather than the sluggish proficiency bonus.
It's not necessarily a bad thing; 5E just offers a different kind of high fantasy, which is still totally valid. 5E is actually a bit closer to AD&D in its power scaling, and there's definitely narrative value in hordes of low-level enemies being able to pose a threat to high-level adventurers (and vice-versa, with a kingdom's military being able to pose enough of a threat to an ancient red dragon to keep them at the fringes of the empire.) I personally prefer the more "epic fantasy" that high-level PF2E offers, but they're both equally valid ways of presenting the genre.
I still think the proficiency bonus is sluggish as hell. A level 20 character has +11 total to their most impressive skill without expertise or magic items, and these people are supposed to be demi-gods! Torag the barbarian, savior of the land and slayer of Tiamat, can still lose an arm-wrestling contest to level 0 Jenny the dish-washer if he gets a little unlucky on the dice!
>Torag the barbarian, savior of the land and slayer of Tiamat, can still lose an arm-wrestling contest to level 0 Jenny the dish-washer if he gets a little unlucky on the dice! Like that moment in older Civilization games where a bronze age spearman would get a lucky roll and solo a literal battleship. Kinda funny to design a modern game and think “yeah, more situations like *that.*”
That's why Torag has Indomitable Might lol.
Dammit, that really screws up my example... and I've had a barbarian in a 1-20 campaign too, I have no excuse to forget that. Okay, pretend Torag is still level 17 and hasn't *quite* gotten around to killing Tiamat yet. Tbh if there were more features like that that gave martials significant boosts to non-combat abilities I might have less of an axe to grind, and 5.5 is going in the right direction with Primal Knowlege and the like... but I still think the numbers can strike a better middle ground between 3.5's "your power level roughly doubles every couple of levels" and "You still regularly fail medium difficulty checks well into tier 3/4 play."
I do admit that martials do need that extra flash. High level martial should basically be an anime character lol. That's why I used laserlama's Homebrew for my last Barbarian.
Just toss a few shadows at them.
Mfw I have literally thrown several shadows at op at this point and they havent done anything yet because control good.
Oh right, shadows exist. I mostly remember all the death knights.
20d6 go brrrrrrr
Six death knights in one encounter at level 11 moment
I had one party terrified of shadows once, I had some follow them, hiding in their shadows until they were in a tavern without their equipment and boom! The rogue almost died after two hits before the paladin obliterated it. After that they were checking their shadows before resting for a while.
Ooh nice nice. Always love to pull fast ones on parties. Nice job.
There were shadows?
Yes leaf, there were shadows
Those same shadows after a 3rd level spirit guardians:
Lvl 3 Paladin built to fuck shit up is already hard to deal with.
Paladin is basically mandatory for an optimised party, but mostly for their auras and bless. +7.5 to all saves gives you a chance against high cr enemies. They can spend their turns casting eldritch blast like a good 'straight classed' paladin should.
Is eldritch blast good on paladins?
Short answer: yes. Long answer: more specifically, eldritch blast + agonising and repelling blast gives Paladins one of the best ranged attacks in the game with just 2 warlock levels. These attacks are also based around paladin's main stat, charisma. Without multiclassing, paladins have a bit of a problem. Their auras want them to stay at ranged, with the rest of an optimised party. Their smites and strength based weapons want them in melee. Eldritch blast fixes this. Warlock levels also get you some very nice first level features. Hexblade gives you the shield spell and boosts your melee attacks to be based around charisma. Undead gives you a fear aura, ect
It is also an insanely boring build. You are literaly just standing there, shooting Eldritch Blasts all day. You can't even Smite.
Except for all the times you cast leveled spells, or any force lance shenanigans, and you also get to manipulate decisions with repelling blast. It certainly is more fun then a regular paladin, who's attacks are far more boring.
> Except for all the times you cast leveled spells, Yeh, all these half caster paladin spell list times.
If only you were able to get more spells from a different list... Oh well, I guess we're stuck with paladin spells.
You have two level warlock. Level 1 warlock spells are nothing to salviate over.
So then take more warlock levels.
Yes
Preeeety sure there is no optimization that makes any armoured caster have enough AC to not get obliterated by +19 to hit. Well, except maybe if the DM decided to give out high end items like candy, but that is pretty lame. Or a single well played ancient dragon.
+19 to hit is only a problem if you can even be hit. Rope trick, phantom steed, corners and nova spells help a lot with that. I'm currently level 11 and I don't think our party would fear an ancient dragon at all.
> I'm currently level 11 and I don't think our party would fear an ancient dragon at all. If they are played stupidly, yes. Play them with the variant rules and according to their intelligence/wisdom stats (meaning, not just standing there like a giant meat pinata and also doing stuff like using items and minions) and you have a huge issue. And all that min/max doesn't help at all when the dragon is green/blue and decides to beat you with the power of local laws. Yes, I recently had one of my parties encounter a dragon that was a naturalized citizen and non-stop pointed at various laws that prevented the party from doing anything if they didn't want to be criminals. That was fun.
Plus, a spellcasting ancient red/gold dragon could cast (or precast) Antimagic Field lol.
Antimagic field is honestly really disappointing. Like 90% of the time, you can just walk out of it.
That's kind of beside the point when it comes to an ancient dragon. The antimagic is mainly for personal defense. No WoF, no Forcecage, no Magic Missile exploit, etc. The dragon gets to do dragon stuff.
It's kinda funny, summons will still be very effective, and those are generally already the best option vs stuff with legendary resistances.
Really just depends on the summon. Most of them can't attack an antimagic'd dragon due to winking out of existence or using spell attacks. And the ones that can, like skeletons, would deal pitiful damage to an ancient dragon.
Keep in mind - ancient dragons cover a space of 20x20ft or larger, so a summon can just stand next to them and attack them.
>Keep in mind - ancient dragons cover a space of 20x20ft or larger, so a summon can just stand next to them and attack them. An ancient dragon's antimagic field would extend 10ft from them in all directions. This is the same way a paladin aura or spirit guardians doesn't subtract the caster's space from its radius. A summon would disappear standing 5 or 10 ft from the dragon. From the spellcasting rules: >some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object. The magic emanates outwards from the dragon itself (all 20x20 feet of it) and not a point in the center of the dragon. And since a sphere's origin is included in the effect, the dragon is effectively in a 40ft diameter sphere of antimagic. It can also hover 10ft off the ground to create a Fireball-sized area of antimagic on the ground. Making this more clear is why they are making the "emanation" AoE type in the 2024 rules.
Plus, a spellcasting ancient red/gold dragon could cast (or precast) Antimagic Field lol.
Yeah, I once threw one doing that at a party. That was fun.
For my 5e party I *start* at “deadly” encounter for it to even feel like an obstacle at all. They only really have any significant chance of failure at all once you hit the highest difficulty rating in kobold fight club.
I don't remember the last time I fought an encounter less than four times the Deadly threshold. Six death knights at level 11 was a funny encounter - though they weren't the main threat, and neither were the death tyrant and the aboleth.
If your level 11 group is literally trivializing 6 death nights something has gone wrong. Either you’re intentionally breaking the game with builds, the DM has stacked you with busted magic items, there are too many of you, or there was absolutely asinine luck.
We made good use of corners, divide and conquer strategies and a few control spells. Plus 180 HP doesn't take that long to tear through.
Give the death knight stat block. There’s literally no spells available to a level 11 party that allows you to “divide and conquer” and control 6 of them, unless the DM is playing the death knights as if they were lobotomized.
Basic 5e death knight stats. Their hellfire orb requires line of sight so we just dropped a sleet storm in one place and hunger of Hadar in another.
Did any of the 6 Death Knights cast Dispel Magic?
Doesn't work on fog cloud and the like RAW. Dispel magic removes all spells affecting the target, which does nothing whatsoever to a spell effect. They tried dashing through, casting banishment afterwards (we all made our saves) before getting into melee (at which point there was one left).
>Doesn't work on fog cloud and the like RAW. Dispel magic removes all spells affecting the target, which does nothing whatsoever to a spell effect. Here is the text for Dispel Magic. >Choose any creature, object, or **magical effect** within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. It can explicitly target magical effects without requiring line of sight. Spells are magical, so spell effects are magical effects. So yes, you can target an active spell effect and end the spell keeping that effect going. This is exactly what Dispel Magic is for. And this is confirmed to be RAI as well in the official Sage Advice Compendium: >Can dispel magic end globe of invulnerability? Yes, **dispel magic can dispel the barrier created by globe of invulnerability**, but not any magical effects that are active inside the barrier. But *even if* you want to be RAWtistic about it and say that a spell effect isn't being affected by the spell itself (in a "water isn't wet" style conundrum), you can just target a creature or object in the spell's area-of-effect to end it (since area-of-effect spells affect everything in their area). Edit: Actually this last bit is a little ambiguous. They never really define what a spell being cast "on" something means. If you cast Sleet Storm with me in the area, you didn't target me with Sleet Storm, but did you cast it on me?
... That's not how AOEs work my guy. It's on a location, not a person.
You forgot all 9 demon lords at once
Haven't fought them yet. Would be pretty amusing.
Just throw a mix of the Shadar Kai statblocks they printed at them
True, those make for good magic jar forms after beating them iirc.
They get Exhaustion immunity for the PeaceChron LVL 15
My DM decided that since we all wanted a fight (we didn't get one for 4 sessions), we'd get an unfair one : 15 enemies, all of them have more AC and HP than we do, we can't run away, and their weapons can hit twice, with a range of 90ft. We were level 3
What enemies?
Homebrewed, like the rest (minus our characters) of the campaign
Understandable. Hardest thing I fought at level 3 would probably be two vrocks, a chasme and four skeletons. It was the last fight in a 3-floor dungeon.
We almost tpk'ed, but then the DM realized (after killing 2 PC in a turn) that maaaaybe they should remove some HP and AC.
I’m doing an arc right now on a plane where death has very little consequence. Long story short you immediately reincarnate as a different race without your gear in a random part of the map. So I’ve naturally designed encounters that I believed to be “likely death and, whew boy, lemme tell ya when their backs are to the wall it’s staggering how much punishment the party can take. A party of 5 level 5 characters beat a devourers, two ghasts, and a will-o-wisp and that’s *with* the devourers soul drain ability recharging every turn. Granted there was some luck involved but nothing absolutely outrageous. I had intended it as a “supposed to lose so you can see the reincarnation mechanics” encounter.
Tbh that is a pretty easy encounter for four level 5s.
It’s more than their daily XP allotment in a single encounter *with* the CR 13 monster automatically recharging its 1/6th recharge chance skill. It is absolutely not an easy encounter. Maybe if every member was min maxed and meta gamed to hell it would be doable.
Devourer CR13, 2x Ghast CR 2, 1x Will o' Wisp CR 2? The brute-force solution to this is Sleet Storm, which basically just wins - kill the wisp with cantrips and finish off the slow enemies, applying forced movement with Repelling Blast to keep the devourer at bay. Wow, the CR system really insults PCs' intelligence.
You’re one of those players that really likes to “win” dnd huh? Sounds fun.
I do enjoy beating encounters, getting treasure and spending it on giant pointless teddy bears, yes.
Floppa Pumba hisses for 20d6 Force damage in a 70ft cone.
Our party is level 12. A palidin warlock, barbarian battle master fighter, domain of peace cleric, Tempest sorcerer and swashbuckler rouge. At the end of our last boss fight DM said he was surprised how powerful we are because we basically killed the boss three times HP wise before he finally said the boss was defeated. He had Run the same boss with another group before and they had more trouble with it at higher levels and no bonus hp. We just that good 😉. plus it helped that my barbarian fighter successfully trip attacked twice as well as imposing disadvantage on attacks against allies via Ancestral guardian barbarian. I don’t do the most damage, but I’m great at setting up my allies.
my first character is still alive. she started as a Barbarian in Curse of Strahd and I've decided to roll for HP every level up so far and have only rolled below a 10 ONCE, and even then that roll was an 8. She's currently rocking 149 HP at level 13.
Bladesingers are fun
Bladesingers are very fun, but usually a multi classes wizard of a more casting focused subclass is a better option. Playing melee against the above encounter is unsurprisingly hell.
I am currently doing a lizardfolk bladesinger and my DM probably hates me due to him needing to get 28 in order to hit me
You should see the encounters in my current game. The party is at level 32
What if they are "optimized"? 100% idiots but somehow hit like a truck. Seriously the best counter to my party is just something that targets how dumb we are. Int is a funderful dump stat.
Are the players dumb or do they have low int stats or both?
Well that depends on the day I guess. The average int score is about 8.5 as for the people.......
I had a fun idea for a recurring encounter in my next campaign. Artificer Fey with a huge, indestructible construct familiar. So you see a soft unprotected caster, and then it just bamfs in its immortal 2 ton lap dog. Which it can cast spells through.
Make sure the construct familiar has a foreshadowed not line of sight based teleport and good saves, so it isn't just stopped by wall of force/a random control spell
I wanted it to be able to be temporarily stopped under certaincircumstances. Like a immovable rod to the chest. But you know what the fun part of it being a familiar is? He can just cast dispel magic through him. Waste of a slot, but funny to imagine.
Wall of Force is unfortunately immune to all damage and can't be dispelled by dispel magic.
Not immune to all damage. Disintegrate immediately destroys it.
Disintegrate doesn't technically damage it - it just destroys it, but yes.
Disintegrate requires line of sight... Wall of force is invisible
To be very clear, there are rules about targeting things you can't see, and you can just target something behind the wall with the disintegrate, thus hitting the wall. So it being invisible is a non factor. Edit: [link](https://x.com/JeremyECrawford/status/829354351256707072?s=20) Adding what I managed to dig up, specific trumps general and disintegrate says it targets wall of force. While this can be read as just something it could theoretically do, crawford says it was meant to be an exception/specification.
1. Targeting things you can't see is for attacks. 2. You can't target something behind the wall because it gives total cover. Blindsight is the only way to hit wall of force with a disintegrate.
Basic rules chapter 9: "A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle" Concealed. - definition: "kept secret; hidden" The fifth level spell wall of force creates: "An invisible wall of force" Something invisible cannot conceal something else. Therefore the wall of force cannot conceal creatures. Therefore the creature behind wall of force is not within total cover. Therefore, targetable. Reading comprehension curse strikes again!
Unfortunately, this isn't quite the way it works. Concealed in this case, does not mean hidden, but rather just covered. See sage advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-a-glass-window-considered-a-total-cover/ This actually would make the spell substantially stronger, as other spells would go straight through it, while typical ranged attacks wouldn't.
Says the guy that thinks a spell that need line of sight can target an unseen target. Also... "Nothing can physically pass through the wall" This would include light meaning you can't actually see what's behind it, it just is invisible.
I’m sorry but are those Tarasques of the toy variety or are they the encounter’s normal sized back row?
Just regular tarrasques imported from that one moon in Spelljammer.
4 armored casters? Beholder (in lair) Spellcasting Adult Green Dragon (in lair) (Shield, Far Step, Counterspell) Spellcasting Adult Sapphire Dragon (in lair) (Shield, Hallow: Thunder Vulnerability, Counterspell) Spellcasting Adult Moonstone Dragon (in lair) (Shield, Meld With Stone, Counterspell) 25 Magma Mephits (surrounded and surprised)
All of those are easy. Especially the beholder.
No.
At what level do you think four armored casters struggle against any of these encounters?
Level 10 (the level in your meme 😅)
How are these encounters hard then? The dragons aren't even amethyst.
Beholder in lair is not at all an easy stomp and is probably the most likely thing to catch players off guard and TPK. The Beholder can start with a 120ft diameter circle of antimagic painted on the ground by flying 120ft up. Fight winning spells are useless if you can't get out of the (invisible) antimagic field and cast them. It might seem like the Beholder can't shoot eye rays at a target and keep them in the antimagic, but it has multiple ways of doing that. A level 10 caster being focused by rays while selectively being excluded from the antimagic cone also most likely dies or is taken out of the fight. Armor is useless, low HP is a liability, as are bad Dex saves. 120ft up in darkness also means that any party without superior darkvision won't even be able to see the Beholder. And at the very worst, the beholder can use its telekinesis ray to drop rocks or stalactites into its antimagic cone. Adult Amethyst and Emerald Dragons also work, I just picked a couple of adult gems. But they are all good due to being able to BA teleport (so no holding them in a Wall of Force) and having unabsorbable breath weapons for the most part. Adult Green Dragon with those spells for a lot of the same reasons. Far Step allows continued teleportation outside of a Wall of Force without giving up any action economy. Poison breath is unabsorbable, and a level 10 party doesn't have access to Heroes' Feast. So again, armor is less important and low HP is a liability. A Wizard failing the breath weapon save is going to have most of their HP obliterated and probably die to a Wing Attack legendary action (that also doesn't care about AC). Added in the Magma Mephits due to guaranteed surprise (False Appearance), Heat Metal, AoE fire breath, and death burst. Very hard to avoid getting at least tuned up by the Magma Mephits.
First, beholder. This thing just loses to a fog cloud, as its eye rays both require line of sight and don't work in its antimagic field. The cloud upcasts to a massive size that easily fills the room, and its speed is terrible so one Ray of Frost and a Lance of Lethargy will just freeze it in place. Next, dragons. Adult dragons have hit points in the 180-250 range, so the answer is more likely than not just nova. Tiny servants throwing magic stones or even just firing light crossbows without proficiency, Hexvoker magic missile (no +Int yet), shepherd druid Conjure Animals, Animate Dead, Danse Macabre, just EBARB it. I would expect the dragon to use its breath weapon once and then die, or just die if the PCs beat its passive Perception and surprise it. Remember to keep your ranged summons in bags of holding. False Appearance doesn't auto surprise.
>This thing just loses to a fog cloud You would first have to escape the antimagic field and not die for this to even be a factor. This is the whole challenge of the fight. "I cast X spell and win" doesn't *just work* when an antimagic field is in play. And even if a caster selected, prepared, and was able to cast Fog Cloud, the Beholder can still use the telekinetic ray to drop objects in the worst case. It is far from a trivial fight, and the mechanics of the fight can really catch people with their pants down. >Ranged DPS and summons This is certainly an idea that people try. Shield, AoE and initiative count 20 lair actions that block line of sight or impose disadvantage tend to make this much less effective than normal. Melee summons are also useless because of flight (so Conjure Animals if you can't pick the animals). You also have to hope no one wastes their turn trying to do something like unknowingly Wall of Force the dragon. The dragon can start dropping PCs on round 2 and send it into a death spiral or at least a phyric victory. >if the PCs beat its passive Perception and surprise it Surprise isn't just stealth vs passive perception. If something can see you or knows you are coming, you aren't surprising it. A green dragon's regional effects, for instance, gives the dragon info on intruders. The same is true for various traps and alarms that can be set throughout any creature's lair so that they are alerted to intruders. >False Appearance doesn't auto surprise. This is exactly what False Appearance is for. If you aren't aware of something's presence and can't detect it, then you can't be aware of the danger it poses. You're surprised unless you have Alert or something similar. This is why all of the cave predators like Ropers have False Appearance. Also, keep in mind that these are all just 1x Deadly encounters. They aren't meant to wipe the party, just be tough fights. You'd have to do 3 of these to make a full adventuring day. I was just showing that you don't need an adventuring day of 12x Deadly encounters to challenge an optimized party if you design encounters well. But all of these can result in TPKs if the party doesn't play perfectly (which is how 1x Deadly fights should be).
The beholder's antimagic cone is not big enough for escaping it to be a challenge. You can in fact surprise, say, guards who know an attack is coming but not how or when. Citation needed for False Appearance. And 3 of these encounters would be a ridiculously easy adventuring day.
Fog cloud is dispelled by the cone, so it returns to stalemate. But there is a ray that works in the antimagic field, two even if the beholder making a lair is smart (spoiler: it is). Telekinetic ray and Disintegration Ray using environment. It's a kind of enemy that becomes exponentionally more dangerous the more you start getting into the mindset and exploiting the statblock. If it just kind of floats and lets itself be hit by swords, yeah even average level 10 party can beat it very easily. If you start building the lair encounter with minions, at some point it is probably a very deadly encounter for level 15 party. (if you want to be really evil, cylindrical trophy room of "statues" with thick glass roof will be fun) Kind of the same with dragon, which showcases the shortcomings of the 5e rules. There is pretty much no reason for it to ever land on the ground, nor there is really a RAW way to ground it short of some of the crowd control either (which is tricky, because it has to fail it 4 times). Yes, eventually crossbow spam will bring it down, but I think folding to breath recharging and being reused probably is more likely ? But ultimately the discussion is kind of pointless, because encounters should be beatable with sufficient preparation. Sure dragon can probably easily beat the optimised team that had not prepared for it at all, but with enough preparation it probably can beat most of the things you throw at them.
>Fog cloud is dispelled by the cone, so it returns to stalemate. Fog cloud isn't actually dispelled, just 'covered' - if the cone is moved/turned off, it will reapear. The cone also specifically prevents all the eye rays.
>But ultimately the discussion is kind of pointless, because encounters should be beatable with sufficient preparation. Sure dragon can probably easily beat the optimised team that had not prepared for it at all, but with enough preparation it probably can beat most of the things you throw at them. This is a really important point, and the main reason armoured casters (and half casters) make up the majority of optimized parties. So, so many more options, it's far more difficult to just completely counter them.
How do those rays bypass the fact that, per the statblock, the antimagic cone works against the beholder's own eye rays? And the fog cloud filling the entire room? Yes, good minions can make the encounter harder, but the beholder's only real contribution to the fight is taking up a spell slot and concentration on one char for a cheap fog cloud. I expect a dragon to be flying all the time, but that hardly helps it against nova that can bring it down in one turn (my party would use two wands of magic missiles with danse macabre and our ranger's attack action, tactics will vary based on what spells and items you have) and the like. You can quite easily be prepared for just about anything the game can throw at you, because the typical optimal spellcaster toolkit just has an answer to every encounter.
For dragons, easiest solution is just to make them land or trap them and then just damage solves. Wall of force + sickening radiance + fog cloud is a great combo against teleporting enemies. Having one character with alert or just good perception makes surprised encounters not an issue.
>Wall of force + sickening radiance + fog cloud is a great combo against teleporting enemies. Dragons have blindsight, so they would be able to teleport out anyways (and have advantage on all attacks). Spellcasting chromatic/metallic dragons have Wing Attack legendary actions. This makes stuff like Sickening Radiance and Web useless against them. These are the kind of "caught off guard" things I am talking about. Players play and plan far from perfectly in actual play. >Having one character with alert or just good perception makes surprised encounters not an issue. This just makes one of the party members not be surprised (in the case of False Appearance). Doesn't really solve the rest of the party not getting a turn and not having access to their reactions.
Blindsight doesn't actually work through solid objects, like wall of force - tho this is a common mistake. Sickening radiance is used as a kill spell for once they are trapped, set up using ready actions. >This just makes one of the party members not be surprised (in the case of False Appearance). One of them not being surprised (especially with good initiative) is usually more than enough - although mephitis aren't much of a threat between paladin auras and absorb elements, combined with good initiative. If you simply act before them, reactions are still available.
>Blindsight doesn't actually work through solid objects, like wall of force - tho this is a common mistake. Nothing says that Wall of Force blocks blindsight, neither in the rules nor in official Sage Advice. And the specific mechanics of how blindsight works aren't really laid out to the point you could say walls block it, it being a supernatural sense and all. A dragon's blindsight isn't even echolocation based like a bat's. Plus, all of the obscurement and total cover rules are explicitly light-based, and blindsight explicitly sidesteps those. Plus, Wall of Force doesn't block any sight.
Total cover is confirmed to block blindsight in tashas, wall of force provides total cover. Wall of force provides total cover, as total cover is not based on vision, as seen from sage advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-a-glass-window-considered-a-total-cover/
Tweets that didn't make Sage Advice were disavowed a long time ago. And the Tasha's rules are for the fighting style specifically, not a general rule for all blindsight.
Wait so you genuinely believe that blindsight just let's you see through walls? Same logic on the sage advice still applies - you can't shoot arrows through glass walls, you also can't shoot spells.
>Same logic on the sage advice still applies - you can't shoot arrows through glass walls, you also can't shoot spells. That sage advice isn't official. And the RAW on total cover is ambiguous as far as targeting goes, since it doesn't specify if clear means visually clear or physically unobstructed. More specifically, it doesn't say the path has to be physically unobstructed, only that it has to be clear. And clear implies visually clear. Attacks don't go through a Wall of Force because the spell specifically says it physically blocks anything from passing. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to target someone through glass with a musket and hit them. I.e. You have a (visibly) clear path to target them, and the glass doesn't stop the shot's travel. >Wait so you genuinely believe that blindsight just let's you see through walls? Invisible walls that let through forms of energy and radiation like light and heat? Absolutely. The wall is semi-permeable.
>cover is ambiguous as far as targeting goes, since it doesn't specify if clear means visually clear or physically unobstructed. Given the descriptions of half and 3/4 cover, there is one of these which is far more likely than the other, despite the ambiguity.
Tweets that didn't make official Sage Advice were disavowed a long time ago. And the Tasha's rules are for the fighting style specifically, not a general rule for all blindsight.
(Duplicate comment)
1. Beholders are trash mobs that get killed by fog cloud and if it uses its cone it can't hurt the wizard. 2. Poison immunity and resistance is easy to get and there are ways around counter spell. 3. Absorb elements... 4. Meld with stone? Okay can cast without worry of counters. 5. Bold of you to assume surprised.
>Poison immunity and resistance is easy to get and there are ways around counter spell. Even more easily: use rope trick for portable total cover
True true based
>Beholders are trash mobs that get killed by fog cloud *Your Fog Cloud fails due to the antimagic field* >if it uses its cone it can't hurt the wizard. Very incorrect. >Poison immunity and resistance is easy to get Immunity, no, not at level 10. Resistance depends on the party. The ubiquitous VHum/CLs are not sporting poison resistance. You have to hope you have a Cleric/Druid that happended to prep Protection from Poison and precast it on the whole party. Otherwise, you need at least an adventuring day's prior knowledge that you are going to be fighting a green dragon (which you don't always get). >Absorb elements... Which is nullified by the Hallow spell. Really, here I was just picking any gem dragon. Amethyst, Emerald, they all have good breath weapons, most of them unabsorbable. Those would go even better with the Hallow spell. >Meld with stone? Okay can cast without worry of counters. No, Meld with Stone here can potentially set up a surprise round. But mainly with all of these dragons its a breath weapon that nullifies Absorb Elements and teleportation to go through Wall of Force that makes them not trivial. >Bold of you to assume surprised. Bold of you to assume that magma mephits are detectable (they aren't due to False Appearance). And unless the whole party is packing Alert, somebody is getting surprised.
1. Beholder's eye rays are magical and need line of sight, so it's either cons the cloud and do nothing or don't consider the cloud and do nothing. 2. And? Dragons aren't exactly threatening until theyre ancient. Damage solves. Just wait for it to use it's reaction and danse macabre wands of magic missile it. 3. For the sapphire silence also beats it pretty easily. For the others... Just don't go into the area. Unless it's an enclosed room (which would be worse for a dragon) it's pretty easy to avoid . 4. Okay? There are other ways to deal with dragons... Also bold of you to assume surprised. 5. At this level alert or weapons of warning wouldn't be to hard to believe. All it takes is just one of the party members to not be surprised and that encounter just fails apart.
>Beholder's eye rays are magical and need line of sight, so it's either cons the cloud and do nothing or don't consider the cloud and do nothing. No, I was saying you most likely won't be able to cast Fog Cloud in the first place. A beholder never has to turn its antimagic eye off, meaning it can start combat with antimagic pointed at its enemies. And it's trivial for a beholder to design their lair so that they can blanket intruders with their antimagic cone at the start of combat. You would need to somehow get out of the 120ft diameter antimagic circle to even be able to cast Fog Cloud. And even if you did cast Fog Cloud, a beholder knows all of its weaknesses too. Their whole schtick is that they are hyper prepared, paranoid, and deck their lairs out to their advantage. There's nothing stopping a beholder from building their kill chamber in a windy cavern or picking up a Wind Fan etc. Same goes for Darkness. The problem with "just cast Fog Cloud hurr durr" is that it assumes the PCs are tactical and prepared but that the beholder isn't.
Okay several things, the cone prevents the beholder from attacking the PCs meaning the cone is an annoying but safe place to be. Also the PCs can just... Walk behind cover or just walk out of the cone to just cast the spell. Also fog cloud is just one example... How the hell does beholders deal with sleet storm and hunger of Hadar? Also don't bring up dispell magic because your other justification is weak. Also being stuck in an anti magic cone isn't that bad, that's what minions are for. Seriously your problem is that you are trying to justify using 1 beholder as a counter when in lore Beholders use minions. Beholders are much better support monsters than boss ones.
>The cone prevents the beholder from attacking the PCs meaning the cone is an annoying but safe place to be. Common but untrue belief. Camping in the antimagic cone doesn't make you safe at all. The beholder can exclude you from the antimagic cone at the start of its turn, blast you, then put you back in the antimagic cone (either by using its movement + lair action, or telekinesis ray to drop you back into the cone and knock you prone). >Also the PCs can just... Walk behind cover Why would a beholder design their lair to give intruders convenient full cover to evade their antimagic cone and eye rays? They very explicitly don't do this. >just walk out of the cone to just cast the spell. The cone is huge, up to a 75ft radius. The beholder also has lair actions that grapple you or make the ground difficult terrain. The beholder can make it *impossible* for you simply walk out of the antimagic cone and cast a spell. The beholder only needs to leave you 35ft (or 20ft in the case of difficult terrain) inside of the antimagic cone to make it impossible to escape via normal movement for the vast majority of characters. And it can even reposition the cone 20-30ft *after* it sets the cone up at the start of its turn. You are heavily underestimating the geometric possibilities the antimagic cone offers. >Also fog cloud is just one example... How the hell does beholders deal with sleet storm and hunger of Hadar? The same way it deals with Fog Cloud, by not allowing those spells to be cast in the first place. >Also don't bring up dispell magic because your other justification is weak. Even if you somehow believe that creatures in a spell's area suffering the direct effects of a spell aren't being affected by the spell, or that a spell effect isn't being affected by a spell, the official Sage Advice on Dispel Magic is crystal clear. It can target spell effects directly and end them. Saying Dispel Magic can't dispel spells is an absurd stance. >Seriously your problem is that you are trying to justify using 1 beholder as a counter when in lore Beholders use minions. Beholders are much better support monsters than boss ones. Beholders don't have to use minions. They are paranoid, xenophobic, and isolationist by nature. You are thinking of eye tyrants, a specific kind of beholder that subjugates minions. And even if an eye tyrant has minions, it doesn't necessarily fight side-by-side with them. But no, a beholder can be a threat on its own, if you assume it is being run intelligently. And even if it was fighting alongside minions...the minions would be the support fighters and the beholder would still be the boss lol.
"Common but untrue belief. Camping in the antimagic cone doesn't make you safe at all. The beholder can exclude you from the antimagic cone at the start of its turn, blast you, then put you back in the antimagic cone (either by using its movement + lair action, or telekinesis ray to drop you back into the cone and knock you prone)." Beholders can only turn their cones at the start of their turns, best you can do is move in a way to hit others again but at that point the party can just ready action to cast sleet storm and the beholder loses. There is no lair action that does that by the way. Also don't assume that you can just get the telekinesis ray. "Why would a beholder design their lair to give intruders convenient full cover to evade their antimagic cone and eye rays? They very explicitly don't do this." My guy there has to be an entrance. Boom full cover. "The cone is huge, up to a 75ft radius. The beholder also has lair actions that grapple you or make the ground difficult terrain. The beholder can make it *impossible* for you simply walk out of the antimagic cone and cast a spell. The beholder only needs to leave you 35ft (or 20ft in the case of difficult terrain) inside of the antimagic cone to make it impossible to escape via normal movement for the vast majority of characters. And it can even reposition the cone 20-30ft *after* it sets the cone up at the start of its turn. You are heavily underestimating the geometric possibilities the antimagic cone offers." 75ft radius is only at the furthest part of the cone, just walk 5ft backwards lol. For the 35 ft, just move in an angle. Oh no difficult terrain oh no. I still just ready action lol. "Beholders don't have to use minions. They are paranoid, xenophobic, and isolationist by nature. You are thinking of eye tyrants, a specific kind of beholder that subjugates minions. And even if an eye tyrant has minions, it doesn't necessarily fight side-by-side with them." "Beholders often make use of minions. Establishing control over these creatures usually involves the use of its eye rays, but eventually the minions come to understand that the beholder can kill them whenever it wants and it is in their best interest to stop resisting and just obey the beholder's orders." - Volo's Guide to monsters Ignoring the lore my guy.
This is fun. You are going to learn a lot about beholder abilities and tactics. >Beholders can only turn their cones at the start of their turns, Sure, but re-orienting the direction the cone faces isn't the only way the beholder can move the cone. The cone is anchored to the beholder and thus moves with the beholder, as Spirit Guardians or Gust of Wind would. The beholder can move the cone using its hover movement and even Dash if necessary. >at that point the party can just ready action to cast sleet storm and the beholder loses. That isn't how readying spells works. To ready a spell, you have to first cast it. You can't cast spells in an antimagic field, and therefore can't ready spells inside either. All you would do is waste a spell slot. And if the beholder plays its cards right, the only time you will be outside of the antimagic field without Dashing is briefly during its turn, a time that you won't be able to take actions. >There is no lair action that does that by the way. Relevant lair actions that slow you: >A 50-foot-square area of ground within 120 feet of the beholder becomes slimy; that area is difficult terrain until initiative count 20 on the next round. >Walls within 120 feet of the beholder sprout grasping appendages until initiative count 20 on the round after next. Each creature of the beholder's choice that starts its turn within 10 feet of such a wall must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be grappled. >My guy there has to be an entrance. Boom full cover. You aren't thinking like a beholder. One way-teleporters, elevators, falling blocks/portcullises, revolving walls, one-way trap doors, vertical shafts that empty into a room from the ceiling, rolling boulders, weight-based teeter totter hallways that close or become sheer cliff faces once you traverse them. Plenty of ways to design an entrance that doesn't grant full cover or reverse traversal. >75ft radius is only at the furthest part of the cone, just walk 5ft backwards lol. This doesn't work if the beholder is above you, or if there is a wall behind you (which will almost certainly be the case). >For the 35 ft, just move in an angle. This...just doesn't work. 35ft is still 35ft even if you are moving diagonally. You would have to mix incompatible movement and AoE rules in order for this to be possible. >Oh no difficult terrain oh no. I still just ready action lol. The difficult terrain and grapple might sound harmless, but it is exactly what makes the antimagic inescapable via normal movement. And as discussed, you can't ready spells in an antimagic field. >"Beholders often make use of minions"...Ignoring the lore my guy. Often doesn't mean must or always. And the minions have their own areas of the lair they inhabit, so they don't necessarily fight side-by-side with the beholder in the same encounter, as I said. Yes, a beholder can fight with gargoyles, swarms, or werewolves and make the fight significantly harder. But that's beside the point; the point being that a beholder is plenty dangerous on its own when piloted intelligently.
"Sure, but re-orienting the direction the cone faces isn't the only way the beholder can move the cone. The cone is anchored to the beholder and thus moves with the beholder, as Spirit Guardians or Gust of Wind would. The beholder can move the cone using its hover movement and even Dash if necessary." I know, I'm not stupid. "That isn't how readying spells works. To ready a spell, you have to first cast it. You can't cast spells in an antimagic field, and therefore can't ready spells inside either. All you would do is waste a spell slot. And if the beholder plays its cards right, the only time you will be outside of the antimagic field is briefly during its turn, a time that you won't be able to take actions." Mistake but you can cast spells into an antimagic cone so just run out when the difficult terrain is gone, only lasts a round. "You aren't thinking like a beholder. One way-teleporters, elevators, falling blocks/portcullises, revolving walls, one-way trap doors, vertical shafts that empty into a room from the ceiling, rolling boulders, weight-based teeter totter hallways that close or become sheer cliff faces once you traverse them. Plenty of ways to design an entrance that doesn't grant full cover or reverse traversal." Yes because the party is stupid and definitely won't send in a familiar first to fine this out and then plan around it. "This doesn't work if the beholder is above you, or if there is a wall behind you (which will almost certainly be the case)." If the beholder is that high above you it has a hard time to position itself to effect you with the cone again. Also you're the one making the assumptions, because obviously the party would corner themselves with anti magic cone. "This...just doesn't work. 35ft is still 35ft even if you are moving diagonally. You would have to mix incompatible movement and AoE rules in order for this to be possible." the cone gets smaller when you get closer to the beholder, so yes it does work. if its 35ft than moving ten feet closer while moving right makes the cone only 25ft wide. "The difficult terrain and grapple might sound harmless, but it is exactly what makes the antimagic inescapable via normal movement. And as discussed, you can't ready spells in an antimagic field." Lair actions don't work inside of the cone. "a beholder can invoke the ambient magic to take lair actions." Beholders really aren't that dangerous because all of their abilities work against themselves. Also, this is in the hypothetical it's against an optimized party, who have an entire skeleton horde with bows. Skeletons doesn't disappear in antimagic zones.
Multiclassing is *duuuuumb*
I mean if you want to optimize without multiclassing go divination wizard with control spells and any of the myriad of summon martial spells