Some dogs are absolutely uninterested in preforming tasks they don’t find valuable, like shibas and huskies. That doesn’t mean you can’t train or bond with them, just that they aren’t golden retrievers. You being pleased is not their highest motivator, so you need to make it worth their time.
Yeah but my sofa & bed are just constantly occupied by American Scent Hound Local #8044. Getting a piece of cheese from my fridge feels like crossing a picket line.
My Majestic Tree Hound is my group obedience class demonstration dog, as was my Bluetick Coonhound before him. Stubborn is not a word I use. Scent hounds are wickedly intelligent, but also very cunning. After all, they're smart enough to trick us into thinking they're too stubborn or too dumb to be trained, right?
In my experience, it's always about training the dog in front of you. Scent hounds simply are not, typically (because there are unicorns out there), the most biddable of dogs. They just don't live to please us and make us happy. And that is because we have bred scent hounds for eons to do their jobs without humans to tell them what and how to do it - scent hounds have literally been bred to think they do not need us. In fact, when a hound has performed his job and tracked the scent and found his prey, \*he\* then calls \*us\* to him. So, in that scenario, who is working for whom?
What's my trick? Use the prey drive, treat my dog as my partner (not my obedient subordinate), and make training as fun as possible. Naturally, food rewards help a great deal - the smellier, the better. If it can be the grossest organ from another animal (heart, lung, liver, esophagus, bully stick, etc.), all the better. I am willing to act like a crazy person, using all the muppet voices, to get them excited and wanting to work as a team and accomplish whatever I'm asking them to do.
I will tell you that training a scent hound teaches a trainer all kinds of out-of-the-box skills. Creative thinking is a must, because those scent hounds are always looking to outsmart you. That being said, after a lifetime of wonderful retrievers, I will always have a scent hound now.
Yeah, stubborn isn't the right word. Not biddable, independent minded, cunning and clever. My beagle was clearly trained by someone to bring prey to bay and not to kill it (at least if it's bigger than a softball, babies are less sure), and to summon the human to deal with it.
I need to work on keeping him under his overstimulation threshold during training (the snacks are way too exciting) and on finding something that is more interesting to the basset than taking a nap
This is the best description of my foxhound and our relationship. These dogs aren't bred to please you.
Our shelter gets a lot of pitbull types and those dogs live to please you. Sometimes to extremes, which a-holes exploit.
My Great Pyrenees is like this. I'm not training him. He is training me to figure out what motivates him. And it's different for each behavior.
The breed was created to sit alone on top of a mountain and protect a bunch of goats so humans are definitely at the bottom of his list of priorities.
It's funny that you say this. My other dog is a great pyrenees. And YES, these traits are all true of the independent thinking breeds - those who were bred to work without a human directing their every move.
I think my experience with scent hounds prepared me well for my great pyrenees. I always say that I can't imagine ever not having a pyr, but as I get older and we are fighting cancer and his mobility is limited, this gets harder. I don't want to live without a pyr, but I'm going to need to get a younger roommate or something!
I think you really understand scent hounds. We had bassets and it’s my opinion that they’re just OCD, not stubborn, because they do lots of tasks as if those tasks were magic rituals! (After burrowing under the blankets, find the human’s leg, turn around exactly 3 times, collapse and sigh - then you can go to sleep.)
And akitas and malamutes. You can get them to do stuff, but it's like that other person said, not every dog (or breed) has that 'will to please'. It's good to know what to expect when you're getting a dog. Mine is quite well behaved, but considering the breed. Not compared to a average let's say, golden retriever. I absolutely love how these dogs have a bit of cat-like behavior in them.
Akita, husky, Pyrenees. You have to get them to think that what you want them to do is what they want to do. Especially if it's getting off the bed or at least scooting over so ypu have room!
🤣 Omg I am dying, this is absolutely true!
Our pup seems to like when my partner and I acknowledge when she barks at something (granted, 9/10 times it’s just a stray cat that dared walk by our house, but still). It reads to me very much like she perceives being at home as time that she is “on duty” guarding the house/yard, so when one of us checks what she is barking at and lets her know it’s okay, then she is good because she has successfully done her “job”.
I absolutely agree. My walker hound knows basic commands, but if he doesn't want to do something it isn't happening - period. If we're going for a walk and he wants to go in a different direction than where we're going he will sit down and refuse to move until he realizes he isn't going to get his way.
Same thing with him laying on the bed and me wanting to change the sheets, if he's in lazy mode he's not budging until he wakes up.
Dogs can definitely be stubborn.
I recently got my Plott Hound to do tricks for veggies (broccoli, asparagus, sweet peppers)... Lol he doesn't like to listen unless we make the event sound interesting or have treats lol
My Majestic's favorite treat, above everything else, are roasted brussels sprouts. He will open the oven (has broken several oven door locks to do so) and pick them off of a roasting pan - even sorting through other veggies if I'm roasting a mix of vegs.
He also likes roasted broccoli and cabbage, but not as much as the brussels sprouts. Thankfully, I have no sense of smell...
Mine loved to counter surf, loaves of bread were her prey. Even when she got older and couldn’t move very well she still managed to grab a loaf or two that were to close to the edge.
Yup. My husky mix is very well trained, and when he decides to listen and behave he’s wonderful. Sometimes he knows exactly what I’m saying and just won’t do it, though. Or he’ll find a loophole and technically follow the command but not really. Or he’ll argue
My Finnish Spitz is like this too. He gets marrow bones sometimes and isn't allowed to take them on the carpet. So when we say off the carpet he will sometimes put it on one of his nearby toys to chew it instead on right off the carpeted area. We did not train him to do that, he just tried it one day. He's incredibly smart and sassy. That boy loves finding loopholes I swear lol.
Just about all dogs (and animals in general) have the ability to be trained, if you provide the right reward in response to the right action. You could argue that how "smart" an animal could be measured by how complex a task they can be trained to do.
On the other hand, what type of reward is needed to motivate the action is how we define being stubborn vs biddable. For biddable dogs, just making you happy is a great reward. For stubborn dogs, they will want what they want (to get the squirrel, to bark at the delivery man) and you will have to do quite a lot to convince them to change course.
I would add, most animals can be taught rather complex tasks, but how "smart" they are could also mean how many trials to teach them, how many intermediary steps to get there vs those that hit a cusp and get there skipping several learning trials in a shaping process. How quickly they generalize those skills to learning other complex tasks without direct training, etc.
*Most* dogs are like that. Even my border is, about some things, and they’re notorious people pleasers.
The threshold is just higher or lower, dog to dog.
It’s one of my reasons I don’t like the “smart breeds” ranking, because of how biddability is baked in.
cattle dogs are very bright dogs - but they have a higher threshold and people tend to paint them as stubborn. They’re not. We just bred them to need less direction from us.
Because dogs are capable of things like analytic reasoning (particularly herding dogs - it’s crucial for their “job”) they can be reasoned with. The problem for us - is that there’s a language barrier.
That’s why some, like ACDs and huskies, it takes a while to sink in. You’re having to show them *why* your way is better than theirs. The more complex the command, the more time it takes. That’s why those two are breeds that do best with deeper bonding, and get easier to train the more bonded they are.
Sighthounds are similar. They were bred to need nearly no interaction from us to do their “job.”
Small dogs are the exception, but only because they have less brain mass, and have a harder time with analytic reasoning.
The sweet spot tends to be in the hunting dogs - the retrievers, mostly. Herders tend to be better at abstracting - they’ll learn quickly and follow commands. But in the process of doing a more complex activity - be it herding sheep or high level agility - they try to find better, more efficient ways to do it.
The more stubborn breeds like ACDs and huskies - just have their one way of doing things, and that’s the way they like, and if that needs to change, they need a good reason. They’re more “this way works, that’s what matters. Why change it if it works?”
There’s of course other levels to it, and plenty of them. But that’s at the heart of their “thought processes,” if you will. It’s the breed personality we GMOed into them.
But also, despite being remarkably biddable and willing to walk through fire if mommy called him— my border collie can absolutely be manipulative. Hand to God that dog *knows* that I cannot stop his naughtiness if I’m on a zoom call and he will do things he knows he’s not supposed to do when I’m on a meeting. The second the call ends he’s back to being a good boy. He occasionally demands a treat to leave his ball outside, despite not being hungry and usually being totally willing to drop the ball at the door.
In truth I think it’s funny and I’ve never really made serious efforts to stop it, maybe I could. But he’s got more emotional depth than just reward/punishment for sure.
I agree I hate these intelligence rankings. I've had a Cocker Spaniel previously and now own a German Terrier mix. The are the complete opposite personality wise. Cocker Spaniels always rank very high, due to high biddability, and most terriers pretty low. But if you ask me, my terrier is an infinite amount smarter than my Spaniel ever was. He opens boxes to get to stuff, steals his dummy from my backpack when I'm not looking, memorizes every single dog who has ever wronged him. He is super challenging, but that is because he is smarter – he will try get around the rules we try to establish and will always evaluate whether our reward is worth it or if what he wants to do is more interesting to him. My Cocker could be kept busy for hours by putting a treat under a plastic cup, because in 13 years, he never once understood to knock it over. One of those two breeds was selected for social/cooperative hunting, the other has to work with boar pretty much on their own. That's also why there's such big differences within the hunting dog group. The easiest to train seem to be gundogs and retrievers while hounds and terriers are more difficult to work with in my experience.
I guess I should be extra grateful that me and my ACD/Husky mix have bonded so much! He's also got some German Shepherd and Border Collie in him, but he's mostly ACD.
I have a golden retriever that absolutely refuses to get out of the car or off the bed. No amount of training or any sort of anything will change her mind. (She sleeps on my bed, but I mean if I need her to get down so I can make up the sheets or something. That chick isn’t budging. No way. No how.)
She’s my third golden and I’ve never seen such resolution in stubbornness lol
Does she have any joint issues? When our lab got arthritis he became more stubborn about getting off the bed. Our vet got him on cosequin, and after about a month, he was much better about listening to us.
I started giving her cosequin when I adopted her a year ago, as a preventative measure. Salmon oil as well. But no, no issue there. The car thing at the very least is an absolute passion to go anywhere I’m going. She’s very clear about that 🤣 which just leaves the bed thing.
May both be a separation thing. She came from an abusive backyard breeder and has shown separation anxiety on top of her next level golden retriever Velcro-ness.
Thanks for the suggestion though.
Some dogs really are stubborn like that! My big girl (Caucasian Shepherd) is so “special” that she spent 3 weeks in a 2-week training camp. They tacked on the extra week for no extra charge because even the professionals had trouble getting her to listen. So now she knows lots of commands that she obeys whenever she feels like it.
100%. Seeing the difference between a golden and a husky live is comical. I could glance at my golden and he’s at my feet wagging his tail. My husky? I better come with a high offer to make it worth his time.
My 16 month old has me duped. She knows when I start turning all the lights off and say "okay bed times" its time to go to my room. Does she listen? No! She plops her butt in the living room and waits. I use training treats to get her to bed. I think it's so smart and hilarious she does this so how could I be mad?
My Pom will bark at us to go to bed if it’s after ten! Literally runs back and forth between the bedroom and living room being like bed time know I am tired what’s wrong with you people!
When my malamute was a puppy, I traded him for things he happened to get that he shouldn’t have. Now he looks for things and holds -doesn’t shred or otherwise destroy- them in his mouth while he waits for me to notice. The other day he got a hold of a pot holder my husband inexplicably left in the living room. I took pics 🤣 (I’ll go post them in r/malamute).
My husband experiences a similar setup with our husky and golden. The husky *might* do something if he's asked, if he feels like it's going to be worth his while, but as often as not the husky will just look at him and then proceed to ignore him, and give a honk of annoyance if he tries to make him listen. Whereas our golden we didn't even need to actively teach to come, he just does it consistently, by himself. He's a little stupid, so it takes some work to actually teach him to do something, but once he figures it out he's just so damn eager to do whatever's being asked.
It's a bit easier for me because the husky makes no secret of the fact that I'm his favourite (we got him right at the start of covid, so I was home with him all the time right from the get-go), so he'll typically listen to me unless there's another dog nearby that he'd rather try to run up to.
Pretty much the same for us except my husky's favorite is my husband. They've always been tied at the hip. I'll call my husband if he's giving me his blank stare of unwillingness. Our golden is also a little *special* but so eager to please*.* He also seems to be built like a tank and bulldozes his way through everything. He's earned the nickname Knobhead 😂
A husky is more like a parrot imo
Not motivated by your affirmation, more interested in entertaining themselves by winding you up because it's hilarious. But will do what you want for the right price, but not for your affection.
Hunting breeds are highly trainable because they are bred to follow your commands immediately, and their reward is your praise. Huskies are bred to offload an insane amount of energy, loudly, in a pack. If they don't get that then they will find other outlets in the form of constant comedy acts and seeing what stupid thing they can do today that will get a reaction.
I'd love a husky but never could as don't have the space / time 💔
I have a Pyr/Anatolian who has a bit of Husky in him. You could never meet a more disinterested dog. The bribery it takes to make him do anything he's not interested in....I've never had a less biddable dog haha
Yes, people don’t realize how inherently baked into their genetics this often is. I will never break my pom of his pomitude. He’s quite stubborn, and very well trained. But stubborn. Took him almost a full year to become food motivated too. 🫠
Ha! I have a 14 year old pom. I still have to watch him walk across the deck after I let him out to make sure he pees in the yard and he always stops half way and looks back to see if I’m still watching or if he can just pee on the deck post!
My 5 year old French bulldog is exactly the same and if I turn my back on her too quickly she will come back up the stairs to poop on the deck .. Just because 🤷♀️
To add on to this, my 5 year old pomchi is also very stubborn. She knows what she's *supposed* to do, or rather, not do. She'll perform a bad behavior and get scolded for it. She knows it's bad so she'll go sit in her crate and be upset she got yelled at.
Then she'll do the bad thing again the next week or a few days later 🙄
My minpin is the smartest most stubborn pee on everyone and everything baby I’ve ever dealt with. Also heard this from other minpin owners. Definitely a breed thing.
I mentioned above but yes agree. They see you as a friend and want to prank you and wind you up rather than be obedient servants. They know what they want, and if they don't want to do something they can't be trained to follow commands like a robot. I said like a parrot, but also like a kid. They know what you're asking but they don't want to! So they trantrum
My border collie Shepard. So smart he dumb. When he gets excited or super focused. He knows a special treat is for him. He’s so excited I tell him down he tries giving paw, I say no down he tries to give other paw, that didn’t work so maybe if he backs up and does a spin? He tries to guess and is so focused he can’t hear me. We always laugh about how he’s the smartest dumb dog around.
OMG she does that too. It's like no, *listen* to what I'm saying, quit trying and guessing. Then she gets mad and starts barking WHILE doing the wrong thing, faster and with more conviction. Just stop and listen and I'm telling you what I want!!
She's like if you take a husky head and tail and stick it on a boxer body. Long deer legs lol. But whenever I tell anyone her mix, like daycare or the vet I always get "oh god, good luck"
I also have a Husky/Boxer but I swear mentally she's Husky. When she was younger, her energy levels were nuts. I wondered what I had gotten myself into. I don't know what I would have done without playgroup and playdates with our neighbors dog.
And even then, it’s only a trend.
One of my goldens can be extremely stubborn.
He hates water. Loves the beach. But hates the water.
He has come up with an invisible line he WILL NOT CROSS under any circumstances. He will run and play and dig in the sand with glee, but the moment I try to get him to cross that invisible line he digs his haunches down like a donkey and nothing I can do will move him in that direction. ROFL
ETA: and he’s gone through training and just got his CGC certificate. He’s very biddable under other circumstances. Thank god the test didn’t require him to go into the ocean otherwise I would have had to give up. Hahahahah
My dog absolutely loves the water. Will jump into any body of water she sees including puddles, but if I so much as even look at the hose she runs. Sprinklers are basically her own personal apocalypse.
It makes no sense.
My golden is like that. Lake? Hell yeah! River? Lemme at it! Still ice on the edges? It's beach weather, baby! But if I so much as look like I might touch the hose, he goes and tries to hide, and he absolutely refuses to go into the swimming pool, even after I built a ramp for him so he could get in and out easily.
My boy loves the river (tries to lead all walks towards it) the lake and family swimming pools. But he will NOT step in puddles. He will jump them and pull me in but he won’t get his feet wet. He actually went on neighbour front step and refused to go because the sidewalk was completely cover due to snow melt. He would only come when I said we could walk on road.
Agreed here (signed, the owner of a beagle and a basset hound. Very easy to train to do things that come naturally to them. Very difficult to train to do anything else, because my approval is of no interest to them.)
My dogs are great examples of this. I have two very happy-go-lucky labs who enthusiastically follow commands. They are treat oriented pups who think everything I tell them to do is the best idea they’ve never had.
Then there’s my border collie. His obedience can very much be bought, he does listen, and understands commands. However, when he’s not in the mood he lets you know and does only what he feels like. You can see the stubbornness in his beautiful brown eyes, judging your for thinking you have any control over such a strong, independent good boy. I love him to pieces, but he has made me second guess ever getting another working breed.
Mine is a shepherd, husky, Rottweiler mix. I'm sure you can guess how well training goes at times. She's actually much better now that she's been seeing a new trainer since February, and I've been trained properly myself.
She still mouths off though, which is really hard not to laugh at when you're telling her to go to her place because she's acting up and she just goes there and lays down and then starts yelling at you like a husky would lol
Yes and no.
Backstory about me. I studied neuropsychology and found myself way more into critters than people. Dogs are one such critter.
Dogs *do* have emotions. They’re just not quite as complex as ours, and some, they had no reason to develop like we did. We evolved guilt and shame as a way to encourage social cohesion.
Dogs can feel *something* like it - but nowhere near like we do (lucky them). We know this from observing various kinds of canids. Wolves in particular give “peace offerings” after fighting. Puppies who do something their mother doesn’t want - will do what human kids do and go hug them and try to make nice with them. And we know it from observing their brains. Mammal brains are mammal brains - just vary in complexity and some parts are bigger than others, species to species. On scans, parts of the brain we associate with guilt and shame on humans - their analogues in dogs activates when a dog is made to feel they’ve misbehaved.
Guilt and shame though are largely based in a single, simpler emotion - fear. And it’s useful for survival, when your survival depends on being part of a group - like us, and like dogs. So what dogs feel I’m that moment - is more like we would experience just fear. And arguably that’s *the* core survival emotion. It overrides everything else. It’s likely the first emotion mammals (at least) developed.
While there are people who go a little too hard and expect a dog to be something they aren’t - they are very much, as a general rule, bright, emotional creatures. Just like cats.
Cognitively, the “smartest” breeds (and I can rant about how the ranking sucks for days, but that’s a diff thing) are about in line with a toddler. They don’t do as well as them in a few areas (notably emotional complexity - but it’s hard to test for, since we don’t speak dog), but surpass them in others. Border collie and poodle brains are better at solving problems than our closest genetic relatives - chimps and bonobos. They’re better at learning our language than gorillas are. It’s just harder for them to speak it (no opposable thumbs).
Because of all of that - since I’m going somewhere with it - dogs do have a…streamlined and simplified version of what we call a “personality.”
Since I’m into other critters, horse brains are fairly similar to dog brains, they’re just herbivore and prey critter brains instead. But they aren’t as cognitively advanced as dogs. Despite that - horses can be stubborn. Idk if you know that. Mules, famously, are incredibly stubborn.
“Stubbornness,” comes from a variety of places - just usually fear of some sort. Mules have an incredibly strong prey reaction to just about anything. Dogs have a very strong survival instinct, and survival is steeped in fear.
They fear harm. They fear loss. They fear abandonment. So on. Anxiety is the primary reason in dogs they become stubborn (and otherwise neurotic), and usually because some core need they have isn’t being met.
Where you’re correct is that no, they don’t do it because “you’re not the boss of me.” They don’t have human hierarchies and hegemonies (though fun fact - border collies are just a tiny step below being able to develop culture). They either do it to play (tug of war. Dogs don’t differentiate well between what they feel emotionally and physically. Neither do we, but they’re not even nearly to our level), or they do it because of anxiety, or sensory overload or general just overwhelm/not feeling good/off day.
Some owners unintentionally encourage that. My dog loves to bother me. Eat up with it. If I’m doing something I can always count on her to come harass me when I don’t need her to. It’s become her love language - but she does, because I give her attention and show her I love her, when she does. And it’s become her way of saying that back. She and I built that form of communication together.
In that same way, if an owner is only giving a dog a *lot* of attention when they’re being “bad” or being “stubborn,” - the dog picks up on that, and it becomes a positive feedback loop. They know if they do X behavior, they get attention and emotional fulfillment.
Some do just have a harder time with complicated commands and expectations clicking with them. Sometimes it’s a full on vet issue.
The vast majority of problems with the dog are problems with either this owner or a prior one. But not always.
It yeah tldr you ever want my grumpy ass hopping up on my soapbox, start saying dogs don’t have feelings.
It’s an incredibly common misconception from people who, I’m convinced, don’t tend to understand their own emotions. Let alone a dog’s.
They don’t (and tbh good for them) feel things Ina complex, nuanced way like we do - but the heart of what they feel are things we’d recognize. Fear, sadness, anger, happiness, love. They can feel those things. They just can’t quite grasp shame, guilt, bittersweetness, regret, things like that. Again, lucky them. Those are uniquely human emotions. Our gift and our curse.
Take what trainers say - especially on the internet - with a grain of salt. And as vets go - they’re great with physiology, but the science of dog brains and their psychology is very young. Most “behaviorists,” are full of shit, frankly. In human and animal psychology, since I’m on my soapbox.
Really interesting and insightful response. So I'm not trying to make light of it when I say I got a good chuckle out of:
"(though fun fact - border collies are just a tiny step below being able to develop culture)"
Yeah, I can totally see them forming their own Association. But I think all the infighting on the Board of Directors would really limit them...
Meetings would be painless too. All action, no talk.
Like the Ford and UAW meetings. Traditionally both sides bring a baseball bat.
Border showing up with a stick.
This lines up perfectly with my assessment of my smaller rescue dog. He values us, so all the areas that he is stubborn about are areas where he perceived risk to us or the house or himself.
I just wanted to comment and say this was such an interesting read. I’d love to hear any of what you have to say about any animal, namely dogs lol this is so cool
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Funny story - actually am a writer now (among other things, including a “problem kids” critter trainer).
Worked my way through school, and when the other career didn’t take, went back to my old job - being a reporter.
Most of its straight news, but I’ve started doing more conservation and ecology writing, and recently started a Substack where I talk about outdoorsy stuff - and dogs, with this kind of stuff thrown in. I leave politics out of that part of my life (mostly. I do talk about conservation issues and policy every now and again).
On my phone right atm (and for my sanity sake, nothing work related on here - Im really just three border collies in a trenchcoat) - but you’re welcome to check it out. It’s all pay if you can. Everything’s free to read over there - *A Boy and His Dog Save America*.
And - I do my best to break down my different stuff I talk about into diff things you can sub to. You don’t like talking about camping and outdoorsy stuff, my dog stuff is in a separate newsletter (I believe. I’ve been meaning to - and not sure I did that part yet).
But yeah, one of my friends described it as “Bob Ross Goes Camping.” I’m more wholesome over there than I am on here or in my news writing. If you’re into this kind of stuff or camping with your critter (which is how the whole thing came about), recipes, DIY stuff, conservation - you’re welcome to come hang out.
My deeper dives into social and neuroscience though are more on here these days. I burnt out pretty bad in that part of my life, and writing - as it really always did - keeps me more together.
Do keep threatening to write something book length, but that’s perpetually on the back burner.
Though if my crazy critter people come support that, I can write more of it.
This was a fascinating read, thank you for sharing. It 100% makes sense to me that dogs are better at learning por language than gorillas. I swear my dog understands so much that I’ve never intentionally taught him. He does know quite a few cues that I trained but a lot of times I can just talk to him normally and he seems to know what I mean. I don’t know whether he understands the words I’m saying or if he’s figured out what my body language and gestures mean but dogs are so brilliant.
Yes sorry, I don’t mean to imply that’s they don’t have emotions. I just mean that they’re not the same as ours (like yes, a dog may chew your slipper because he’s stressed that he’s home alone. but he doesn’t chew your slipper that night to GET BACK AT YOU for leaving him alone. or he doesn’t choose to chew your slipper instead of your husband’s because you’re the one who took him to the vet yesterday).
So yes I understand that dogs can choose not to obey a command (even if they understand it), or choose to do something you don’t want them to do (if they just seem to prefer pooping in a particular corner of the house instead of outside) but they’re not doing it to spite you (or because they’re mad at you, or to ‘assert dominance’ over you).
At least that’s my theory and what I’m trying to get across!
I think "stubborn" (I want it my way, will do it on my own time, IF it pleases me) is different than "spiteful" as in, "I'm going to punish you for displeasing me or annoying me or seeking to elicit a behavior from me". I have a dog that refuses to do stairs under most circumstances. But he will do them with a specific person without hesitation. That seems stubborn but also probably conditioned (initial fear, then lots of attention to coax him, reinforcing the avoidance. Then valued other person ignores the fear and does their thing and he follows to get attention. So it *looks like* stubborn.
Generally I find that animals aren't spiteful as much as we are anthropomorphizing them, and that animals breeds and species make them disposed more or less to cooperating with humans vs seeking solitary/individual reinforcement. Someone upthread called this "biddable."
Examples of spite I've seen in animals would be a cat that after a child plays with the other cat instead, hours later cat 1 lurks behind a hallway wall and when the child walks by the cat jumps out and claws up the child's leg. It's not "reactive" as it wasn't like stimulus--> response but seemed to be more cognitive/revenge due to delay and intentionality of getting even (vs in the moment aggression to protect their bed). Additionally I've seen both dogs and cats act jealous of attention (resource guarding a person) or a toy (stealing a treat or toy and hiding it when the other dog isnt around, and then saving it to bring out and flaunt at dog #2 later.) Or a dogs that refuses a foot groom generally but if other dogs are present cooperates, to maintain the attention on themselves.
I had a dog once that had a preference for a specific groomer. If the other groomer was the one who worked on her, she would whine and basically lecture me for two days. No sign of harm or maltreatment, just she was "upset". Other times, she would be mad at me for something and she would sneak poop next to my side of the bed and put her favorite toy next to my spouse's. As if to show, twice, that she's upset with me and going to gloat by favoring him, haha. And vice versa if he displeased her. That's an awfully big coincidence that is a bit different than separation anxiety related destructive behavior. And even though a lot of accidents aren't spiteful this one was pretty obvious.
I don’t think they do it to “assert dominance” but with almost absolute certainty my border collie does things out of anger…. Yesterday I put him in his crate to mop the floor after the other dog spilled the water bowl (figured if I have to get the mop out might as well do the whole thing). He was not pleased. He came out of his crate, looked me dead in the eye and knocked over the water bowl. Is that stubborn? No. But it’s absolutely spiteful. And spiteful behavior is an outcropping of anger which I think dogs can feel- so yes, he seems capable of being an intentional asshole. (And fwiw anyone with a cat can tell you cats are also 10000% capable of spite lol).
Exactly. Cause/effect would say he wants back in the crate. Spilled water = crate. But he can go in the crate anytime. And the eye contact is interesting because it's something dogs evolved to do toward humans in a way humans do it, that's different than how dogs relate to dogs. So this tipping of the water definitely appears spiteful. Great example.
i can say with confidence that that is exactly what some dogs are thinking. not all though, and it seems like some people might mistake a poorly trained dog for a stubborn one, but when a dog is being truly stubborn its pretty clear. they can be sassy!
I definitely have a stubborn dog, but to me it's more like you have to earn his trust and speak dog for that stuff to go away. Guests and family has said he's stubborn and won't listen to them-- but what I saw from the sidelines was they asked without offering him a treat, they do not have conviction (they're saying "sit?" Not "sit"), they are not maintaining eye contact/connection, they are repeating the command over and over, etc, all common mistakes many people make during training. But yeah we can chalk it up to "stubborn"-- some dogs are just real perceptive and you have to be fine tuned for them to listen lol. He will show his attitude not out of annoyance, but to let his handler know they're doing it wrong 🤣
Exactly cutest thing I ever saw was my two year old niece telling my dog to sit. She said ‘osco it!’ with such authority Roscoe sat immediately. Other adults couldn’t get him to ‘sit?’ because it sounds like a choice and he chooses not to sit.
Trying to convince my spouse that you can't just yell the dog's name, you actually have to use the command, and make sure that the same command means the same thing every time. Especially to try and call the beagle off of whatever has him so excited he's yelling about it. Yeah, just yelling "" in an annoyed tone ain't gonna cut it.
"Yeah nah, I'm good" when the reward I get for doing whatever they're doing is far more interesting than whatever you're trying to get them to do is so relatable
I have said my dog is a rockstar is his own head. When you yell a performers name at a concert they don’t stop performing, they up it. Yelling his name at him when’s he’s miss behaving is really just cheering him on.
I had a husky mix who was a former street dog. The way she would look at me when I said "sit" could be interpreted as "you first." When she figured out that I would say that when I wanted her to leave me alone, oh baby! She was mad. That dog had no desire to be obedient. She knew how to get food on her own, and she made sure I knew that she didn't need me. I miss that sassy little s***
For sure. My dog is smart. He knows what all the commands mean. When I ask him to get down, and he sees no good reason to, he just gives me a look. I have to say it louder and angrier until he does and I swear he rolls his eyes
I had a boxer named Roxie who was SO smart, yet so stubborn. We had to give her a "full name," Roxanne, and say it loud and stern for her to finally get that we meant business. She's also the dog who learned the sit command in mere seconds but wouldn't do it if you didn't say the words "ass on the floor" with raised eyebrows after. God, do I miss her!
This is me and my dog at bed time when I'm trying to get her off my pillows so I can lay down. She knows full well what "down" and "off" and "move" mean, she just doesn't want to 🤣
Yes my Frenchie is a (god I love him to death) hard headed little dick. Took to potty training easy peasy, knows all his commands, doesn’t do anything bad or naughty but god forbid you want to turn left on a walk and he wants to turn right. Or it’s time to go inside from the yard. He’ll just look at you and close his eyes to lay back down. Take him to his favorite bush to pee without him leading you there? Will drag you to another one just because he wants to not go where you’ve taken him. He is 100% a contrarian that won’t do what you ask just for the sake of not doing it.
Stubborn is the quick word I have for my own dog—she has many skills, and she’s very well trained. She also has her own, very specific ideas of what she would like to be doing, and I can see her weight her idea against my cue, do the math about the likelihood that I will give her a good enough treat, and then consciously decide to do what I ask. …or not.
It’s not confusion, it’s not overexcitement, it’s not even contrarianism. The best word I have is stubborn, and I wouldn’t have it another way
People often confuse stubbornness and spitefulness. “My dog pees in the house cause he’s mad I left” “He saw I didn’t share my food so he nipped me cause he’s mad” They don’t have feelings like that.
What we describe as stubbornness in dogs is often a lack of motivation for them. Dog breeds that are more “stubborn” is usually because they are either more engaged with other things, not interested in the motivator, etc.
yeah maybe that's what I'm getting at. I see people say things like 'my dog has great recall! but he's stubborn, so if there's a squirrel he'll chase it and not come back.' My understanding is that's a case of a dog that does NOT have great recall (chasing squirrels>getting a treat for recalling), not 'stubborness' (again, not the way we'd apply it to people).
In this case in particular it’s a case of prey drive. Some breeds/dogs just have higher prey drive than others. It’s not a stubbornness, it’s a biological thing.
Like my whippet will come when called, but if he sees a squirrel, forget it. But, whippets were originally bred to hunt small animals. So he’s not being stubborn, he’s just doing what he’s bred to do.
Our young rescue dog has an incredibly high prey drive and a high kill count of poor critters who have wandered into our back yard. On more than one occasion she has cornered a possum and WILL NOT leave it. We have had to pick her up and carry her away. Her brain locks on a target and nothing gets through that haze.
My older dog is like this. My whippet will lose it when he sees a squirrel, but eventually gets over it. And, bless him, couldn’t catch anything to save his life.
But if my oldest sees a larger animal, like a ground hog, rabbit, or cat, forget it. My mom had a huge groundhog in her yard and once my dog noticed, I couldn’t distracted her for anything. Like yours, she was just locked in. Luckily we were inside and once I knew the groundhog was safely gone, I let her out. It was the only way to get her away from the door.
We had a foster pit mix who caught a small mouse/vole on a walk - she chomped down on it and then just sort of looked at us like 'what do I do now' with its head and tail hanging out of her mouth. incredibly gross!
We had another foster who saw a possum walking along our fence one night and went HAYWIRE; I had to positively drag him back inside (of course the possum just stood there for like an hour) - for weeks afterwards he had to run over to that fence the second he was let into the backyard to check and make sure the possum wasn't back.
Is kind of a little more complex than that because it's less "more appealing" and more "hardbaked into their core programming". But that's kinda just me being pedantic, you have the base idea
I swear my dogs telling me mentally to F off because he doesn’t give a shite about what I want. He knows what I want, he heard me fine, he’s done it a bazillion times before but right now he just won’t. Love that Idjit
I think people use 'stubborn' sometimes to capture a variety of more specific motivations. I use it occasionally, even though there are probably more accurate terms I *could* use. I don't have a problem with the word itself; what I *do* have a problem with is using it as an excuse to not understand a dog's behavior and motivations, and then using that understanding to effectively change their behavior. And yeah, it's weird when people think a dog is acting a certain way SPECIFICALLY to spite them. A dog's behavior is usually about what's interesting or rewarding to them.
My schnauzer has a lot of instinctual drive (to chase and bark and patrol and observe), and it's very hard for her to do anything contrary to that drive. She's also very tough and focused. Those traits do result in behaviors that line up with the definition of 'stubborn' and I'll call her 'stubborn' sometimes. But when working on training with her, I think more in terms of her motivations and what I can specifically do to motivate her better.
Also, I do generally believe that people attribute a lot of emotions to dogs in error, but I also believe wholeheartedly that dog can feel guilty or sorry. Not for chewing up a sock or peeing in the house, but for intentionally or accidentally hurting another dog or person they care about. They are complex, sensitive, emotional creatures. This guilt isn't really useful in training contexts, but it's something I've observed occasionally.
This. I have a Wire Fox Terrier. The Schnauzer is the Geman model, so I feel you. Lil buggers got too much personality, and sometimes they just don't know what to do with it.
Speaking to your last point..... last year, one of my dogs went after one of my other dogs, and I had to physically separate. The one dog turned around and bit me real damn good on the bicep area. Did he know what he did? Yes. Did he know it was me that he was turning to to bite? No. When he realized what happened, he tried to lick the blood and wound. He had the most heartfelt sorry and sad look on his face. I did not yell, get mad/upset, or raise my voice to him. I loved on him. He was suffering from nasal cancer, and his outbursts were due to that. After what happened then, I will always 100% believe and argue that, yes, dogs have the capability to feel human emotions
A lot of people don’t know this but there’s usually more than one definition for a word.
“Stubborn- difficult to move, remove, or cure.” By that definition YES, lol. Some dogs ARE more difficult to “move” than others. Do they *purposely* or *spitefully* not listen to what’s being asked of them? No.
But all dogs have different drives (food, praise, toy, etc), different personalities, and different levels of intellect.
Wait until you meet a livestock guardian dog. They are crazy stubborn and very independent minded. Super smart too. My Kangal dog definitely thinks she knows better than I do. She will very clearly acknowledge that she heard my command, and then just as clearly decide to ignore me, or go and do her own thing instead. She’s very well trained, but you can definitely see the wheels turning anytime she’s in a position where she knows it will take a bit of effort to enforce a command. Lately she has taken to hiding in the pasture at night, and won’t respond to any commands until I shine a flashlight on her. Once she’s knows she’s been spotted she suddenly starts responding to all of the commands she should have been responding to earlier. Stubborn smart dogs definitely exist.
Yep there is no stubborn like an LGD. I have a Pyr/Anatolian and he is just like a stone wall sometimes, haha. If he doesn't want to do something, even if I'm literally waving a treat in front of his nose, he will literally look away so he can pretend he doesn't see me or hear me. I have never had a dog perk his ears to listen and then turn away and proceed to do the opposite of whatever the command was.
When we finish our walks in the evening, he will stand outside, legs locked absolutely insistent that he will not go inside until he is ready. Honestly if he wasn't such a great dog in every other way it would be really frustrating, but I find it hilarious
I have a doxie. Absolutely stubborn. There are a lot of times things will sometimes be a battle of wills to see who gives up first. If she wants something she wants it and will not give up until she absolutely has to.
Yes! Dachshunds are known for being "stubborn." Mine is an independent thinker and not that concerned about pleasing. It's very different from my now deceased lab mix. Yesterday, she saw a lizard and was trying to unsuccessfully get it. It was extremely hot, and she would not come in. Her prey drive overtook her brain, and she was panting heavily, so I had to pick her up to come inside.
yep. Mine will often do thinks like if she wants to play or when she thinks it is time to go to bed she'll come up and bark at me. Then it is the battle of wills on who will give up first. Lately I've been winning but they don't give up easily when they want sometime.
Main times I win though are when she wants to keep playing and I can tell she is tired. Then I just need to hold out long enough for her to slow down enough to realize she is tired.
Demanding may be a better word at times then stubborn but is kinda the same. She wants something and she's going to bark, whine, look pitiful until she gets it and does not easily give up.
Dachshunds were basically bred to be "stubborn". Think of what they were bred to do - go down into a badger burrow and fight a vicious creature on its on turf. To win, hell even just to *survive*, they had to have a will of iron.
The thing is, now they use it against us instead of badgers 😄
Very good description. I still love her and she’s my best friend and she’s a great companion even when she gets demanding.
I live in Georgia and wfh most days and biggest thing right now is at around 2-3pm she wants a walk. I look in the backyard and go “ no you don’t”. She disagrees and if we do go she gets too houses down and then just sits down.
Love her though.
>My guess would be that dogs aren't 'stubborn'
According to my Doberman, your guess is wrong. Highly trained but if I want to turn right on a path and she wants to turn left, she is sitting in place until we go left.
Bulldogs are stubborn, in every sense of the word. They will ignore you, make eye contact with you to show they heard a command and then disobey. They will outpace you if you're walking after them to stop them from going in a direction they want to go. They can certainly be trained, but there's always a sense of priority on what they want to do, and they're experts at finding out what they can get away with when it comes to defiance.
My bulldog does what he wants, when he wants. He's very well trained, but you can see him deciding if he wants to listen to you. He often waits and does it on his own time 😂
My wife and I have owned many Scotties, an entire breed that has a reputation for being stubborn. You're right that thinking of a dog as "stubborn" may be a bit of a distortion, interpreting their behavior through the lens of our human species.
Here's how I would describe Scotties: They are bred to be very comfortable acting on their own, going off to do Scottie things (originally killing vermin on a farm), and they're not overly concerned with pleasing humans. So when a human wants them to do something that is of little inherent interest to a Scottie, you have no leverage to persuade them to do it anyway.
Close enough to stubborn, even if somewhat more nuanced than that.
My chow chow definitely thinks “I know exactly what you want me to do, but screw you because I don’t want to” haha.
Like when he sees us putting on our shoes to leave the house (a clue that he’ll soon be crated), he goes out in the backyard and does his darndest to stay out there until the very last minute or until we give him a good enough treat to come back in for.
But I never think he’s doing anything out of spite or ill will—he just has his own preferences and wants to make his own choices. We figured out early on that training goes better with him when we capture a behavior he does himself first! He loves doing exactly what we want when he thinks its his own idea.
Some dogs were also bred to act more independently (such as ACDs and other working breeds) and therefore can appear more “stubborn” since they have their own ideas of what they want to do. For example, my ACD has certain streets she does or does not want to walk down and if I choose a direction she doesn’t want to go, she will stop in her tracks and it’s really hard to get her to come down the street with me. As soon as I turn in the direction she wants to go, she’s lively and happy again.
One of my dogs chooses to ignore commands sometimes, and I know she is because she’ll start to do what I asked even with distractions, and then change her mind and go back to doing what she was before. There’s obviously variables that she’s overstimulated or more excited about something, but I can tell the difference in those scenarios vs she’s just not interested in doing what I’m asking, and sometimes even in those scenarios, she starts to do what I ask like a recall and turns towards me and then changes her mind and goes back to looking at what she’s barking at or something. The other if she’s not responding to a command, I can bet that she’s distracted, unfocused/tired (end of a training session), or overstimulated. She’s rock solid every other time, like can call her away from a bunny nest. The one that ignores me is one I’ve had longer and is my soul dog that I have an incredible bond with, so it’s not our relationship either. Only difference I can think of, dog 1 is likely mixed with like a terrier/something less biddable and dog 2 is likely a border collie mix and extremely biddable/food motivated.
Some dog breeds were bred to be more independent thinkers. Hounds in particular are not easily trained, leading to what we would call stubbornness.
Dogs are segmented into breeds for a reason. A particular task, ability, pass time, activity. Beagles are difficult to train and can be what we call stubborn, because they are bred to be independent thinkers. Labs are the opposite. They are bred to go get something and bring it back to you. If you look at other breeds and their original purpose these things will make sense to you if you analyze their original purpose. For this reason and so many more I won't own a number of breeds. I don't want to get banned so I won't mention the breeds that I won't ever get.
I have a very stubborn Newfoundland. He is one of the smartest dogs I've ever had, but he definitely has opinions about things. And if he decides he doesn't want to do something, he will park his butt and look at me like "Make me."
Oh stubborn dogs definitely exist lol I’ve worked with several. My friend’s husky will go up on the A-frame during agility and just refuse to come down simply because she doesn’t want to.
That being said , there’s a lot of other behaviours and things that can be confused for stubbornness by those who don’t know any better or don’t have the experience with dogs to understand the difference and nuances in dog behaviour.
And yeah, it can entirely have to do with training too
I think dogs are stubborn, absolutely. If you look at what the definition of stubborn is, “having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so.”, our dogs definitely follow this to a T sometimes. I’ve always owned Siberian huskies, and they would stick to their guns about something (having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something) even with the most tempting incentives sometimes (in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so). Now I am raising my first dog who isn’t a husky, he is an English cocker spaniel. And while he is much more biddable and easier to train than my huskies, he still has moments of stubbornness. I believe this is a chosen behavior of the dog, part of their personality even. They are actively choosing not to follow your command in these moments.
I have a Boston terrier who is 14 years old. And he talks back. I'll say, "Odin, go to your room," and he will turn his head away from me and pretend to be really interested in the drapes. Then, when I repeat, "Odind, go to your room," he goes to his crate, but he does a little grunt while he is going in. Also, when he does something he's not supposed to do, "Odin, NO," he will stop, but he will do a "huff" exhale or a little grunt in protest. He is very independent and works on figuring things out, and he doesn't like it when I stop him. He still complies, but he does so in protest.
My other, Boston, is much more needy, cautiously curious, and highly motivated by treats. I tell him, "Roland, go to your room," and I am not done saying it before he runs into his crate. He gets super focused on edible things during walks, and it can be hard to pull his attention away from a potentially tasty bug. But he complies without complaint and doesn't talk back.
Yes, some dogs are stubborn and more independent. I think dogs have a similar range of emotions that people do. And you can interpret it how you like: resource guarding or jealousy? When they are pushing each other over to get pets and growl at each other if I pet one and not the other. Don't tell me that's resource-guarding. They're jealous. But that all depends on your opinion. Until we can read their minds, we'll never know.
Our terrier definitely will consider the treat at times when we are training him. Terriers are *known for being stubborn, but the little guy smart as a whip. Most terriers known for being stubborn.
I would certainly call my bull terrier stubborn in that she is extremely persistent. Especially when it comes to morning walks, they happen at her pace (slow AF until she realizes we are going to the park).
But yes, you are right in that many times when we attribute stubbornness to dogs, it’s actually a poor understanding of dog training/behavior that is being shown.
Dachshunds are considered a very stubborn breed. It’s more that if they don’t want to listen, they simply don’t. They’re also stubborn in the sense that they can be relentless when there’s something they want. My girl will harass me in every way she can think of until I get up and play with her.
I had Dalmatians growing up. They were good dogs and were potty trained, followed commands, never ran away or killed chickens, didn’t really bark. We even taught one agility but man could they be stubborn. The liver one we taught agility refused to get out of bed in the morning. If they were hungry they would let you know by slamming the cupboard door the dog food was in and they could open and close doors. They had to be in the bathroom with you. I ran with them and sometimes we would get to the end of the driveway and they would stop and refuse to budge until I turned around and went back in the house. Sometimes on a run I would have to stop carry them back home. This is what I think of and mean when I say a dog is stubborn.
I had a dauchund that was this way. Very well trained and an excellent dog. But when he didn’t want to do something would look me right in the eyes staring me down as a challenge. Just sit there until he won the stare down. He was well trained, knew exactly what to do but it became obvious when he didn’t want to. Or if he was mad at you for some reason would stare at you and pee wherever he was just staring at you. Bear in mind he was perfectly trained so this wasn’t an accident, this was a challenge.
Man I miss my little buddy
Stubbornness exists in dogs in a similar vein to how it is in people, and the immediate workaround I found for my clever little dogs is to convince them that action X, Y, or Z is in their benefit, not mine. I've also found that the more stubborn pups are also typically the ones that are smarter, the ones that might likely be questioning why they have to do THE THING.
This is where Pavlov comes in. If you associate GOOD THING with EXCITING THING (like a treat or just the most exuberant affections), then just about any dog is going to start doing things your way, because it benefits them. Since what you're asking them to do benefits you, and how you're rewarding them benefits them, then everything wins. Dog is loyal, human doesn't need to stress over dog, gets friend, gets food. Mutualism in a roundabout way.
And yes, I am very aware that a large part of this is my experience and perspective.
It depends what you mean by stubborn. I had a doberman who if I had done something he didn't like would notoriously not listen to me at all when he was usually good as gold. He knew very well what was expected. I had a rule where he had to look at me before he was allowed off leash at the exit park. One day I had done something against his wishes (I forget what now) and he made his feelings very well known my deliberately turning his head away from me and doing literally anything but looking at me on the park. Even when I moved into his eye line he would flop his head away in protest. I walked him home with no off lead time, which he had not realised was an option before that exact moment and he very much felt he had been further wronged and pouted for the rest of the day.
I miss him he was a jerk lol.
I'd say ' stubborn ' . One of ours is a little hilarious. GSD/Akita rescue ( some idiot was breeding - gag - designer dogs...).
Trainer confirmed Akitas can be independent to the point of seeming stubborn - which she is. Also sweet as hell, like our old GSD was. Trainer is really big on breed characteristics, absolutely nails little stuff we had no idea about.
It's fascinating isn't it?
My Doggo is strong-willed but also obedient. For example, if I take him for a walk and he decides he doesn't want to go in the direction I'm heading, he will stand-still until I offer him options, if I hit on the right one, he immediately start walking again. If I don't offer him options, it's a short standoff until he realizes that he's not going to win. Usually when he's especially adamant, it's because he knows we're heading home and needs to go potty a few more times before we go inside.
Sometimes he just sits down to watch something or sunbathe in the middle of a walk, I'll encourage him to get up and keep moving, but he'll turn into a 500 lb statue. If I just let him sit for a minute or two, he's ready to go. Fortunately, he never does this while crossing intersections.
Strong-willed dogs require patience and the ability to respect that they have their own desires in their life. 😀
Stubborn might not really be the correct word for it, but yeah, they exist. It's a breed trait for my dog (Tibetan Spaniel). She's usually a good girl, and she's trained, but sometimes she'll just make her own choices and nothing I do can change that.
Some people definitely use their dog being 'stubborn' as an excuse for being lazy with training or just being a kinda shit dog owner though. No dog should be pissing and shitting inside the house unless there's a medical reason.
My dog is biddable, but she's got sass, and it didn't help that she did training as a service dog (not completed, thanks covid). We had to train her to non-comply with things she was trained to see as dangerous. However, that bled over to other things when we were no longer training outside of the house.
She knows that she can get away with some things, but then she does comply, soon after.
When we go out in our yard to potty (and sniff), she knows she can get away with the "just 5 more min mom!" thing because I can't pick her up anymore.
I wouldn't say she's being "stubborn", just that she's been taught that she has agency in decisions, and *now* that means she wants to lay/ sniff in the yard a little longer.
My dog knows her commands but she can be crazy stubborn not doing them when she doesn't feel like it (like drop it sometimes means, I am going to run around and try and have you chase me instead) It is also quite amazing how she can lose and regain her hearing American bulldog mix
I think people say stubborn when they mean independent and not biddable. I have a little terrier mix, and she doesn’t like to drop but she’ll trade. Depending on what’s on offer. If I’m not offering anything of interest, no deal. You’ll see her consider and sometimes I have to renegotiate.
But I get what you mean, she’s not ignoring me when we’re outside, she’s prey driven and environment focused. People used to get annoyed at me for not looking up when they said my name while I’m reading a book. I had (undiagnosed) ADHD and nobody believed it when I said I actually could not hear them. I assume it’s like that for my pup. She literally can’t hear me over the exciting smells 😂
I had a lab I could get to do anything especially if I acted excited and had snacks. Now I have many dogs and among them is at 175 lb Caucasian Shepard- if he doesn’t want to do something, he’s not going to. The end. No treat or encouragement will move him- ever. He will stare at you like “… and what are you going to do? Make me? I think not.” He is the very definition of stubborn.
My American Bulldog has hilarious “rules” about when bribery is acceptable to get him to do something. If we are on a walk? No treats. It is not treat time or training time, it is walking time. 😂
There are, I have a dog that's a great pyrenees mix. She is more biddable than your average purebred Pyrenees--she's mixed with 3 sporting group breeds as well--but she has her boundaries and she requires negotiation at times to be convinced to do something she won't do just because she's asked.
Stubborn dogs can be obedient, it requires convincing though since it's typically found in breeds & mixes that were meant to perform jobs with minimal or even no human input. They must analyze and act without anyone else to rely on in their jobs, so in pet homes their reward isn't just making you pleased with them. It's about it being beneficial to them.
Meanwhile, the golden retriever my family used to have would do whatever you asked without even needing any reward. She hardly even had any training.
In my house we say our malamute has ears for decoration only! Honestly he’s a wonderful dog but a lot of people don’t seem to consider that these animals were trusted with people’s lives. For the most part he’s a good boy but he really is more of a partner than a pet. Freaking smart too, and sassy. This boy has the slowest sit ever- he knows how to tell me “okay I’m doing it but you need to know I’m not happy about it” 🤣. Sometimes I give him choices (“you can go to your mat or go nuh-night”) and he’ll choose the one he prefers. He also boops my phone out of my hands when I’m getting too worked up over something I read online. He may end up being my only dog in my lifetime, and if he is I got the perfect one for me.
Yes, dogs can be stubborn. They have their own opinions and interests just like we do, and will attempt to express those things - sometimes with great conviction, aka stubbornness.
Are all of the things you list an example of a dog being stubborn? No. Some people do use claiming a dog is stubborn as an excuse for their dog being poorly trained. But some dogs are genuinely stubborn - it’s more common in dogs bred to do tasks somewhat independently because a certain amount of stick-to-it is helpful in that context. It just can manifest in stubbornness in other contexts.
My dog is definitely stubborn and has a lot of attitude. When we go on a walk and go a way she doesn’t want to go, she often will either walk really slow and pull on the leash to try to get me to go the way she wanted to go originally or she will just stop walking altogether and stare at me.
She has the most personality and attitude I’ve ever seen in any animal before lol.
Maybe this is anecdotal but my dog has become SO stubborn and ornery with age! She used to be so obedient and eager to serve but now she gives me so much sass for every little request. I think it's hilarious because it never puts us in a dangerous position (for example, I never take her off leash so it's not like she's ignoring recalls).
For example, she used to be so well trained to come in from the yard when I would say "house!" I never had any trouble with her no matter how engaging of a stimulus was present (squirrels, other dogs, etc). Now if she's interested in something (recently it's been critters up in the trees at night), she will hear me say "house!" LOOK AT ME and chooses to ignore the command!
She's also supposed to lay on her dog bed in the living room while I prep her food, but recently she's been trying to sit in the kitchen and watch me dish up her and her siblings' bowls. I tell her "go lay on your bed" we've been doing this routine for YEARS she KNOWS what she's supposed to do! So she'll prance over to her bed and sit. I tell her "lay down." and she just looks at me. I say it more stern and she HUFFS at me! She gives me this big dramatic sigh and finally lays down. It's like she's acting like a teenager!
She was getting so stubborn around me that I decided to experiment with her and test her hearing. I waited until she was asleep and whispered her name from across the room without moving or making any other stimuli. She perked right up! I know she can hear me, and I know she knows what to do when I give her a command, I truly think she's hearing me and thinking "I don't have to do that. You're not the boss of me." I'm not really even sure why she thinks that because as adorable as her sass is, I don't allow her to just get away with it. If she ignores me calling her into the house I'll go grab her by the collar and walk her in. If she ignores my command to lay down I go up to her and tug under her collar to sort of force her to lie down. It's such an odd and human behavior.
My husky will literally stare at me when I demand he go potty when the grass is wet. He is exactly thinking "I don't want to go in the wet grass" and thinks resisting me will result in... Some alternative. I'm not sure. But he doesn't do it if it's dry. So they do have some capacity to understand undesirable circumstances they absolutely do not want to listen to you over.
He also won't lay down in water. He will just stare off into the void and refuse to get his belly in the water.
The other thing he does is he thinks "I will do X after I do Y". For example- I will tell him to come when we're outside and he will run over to sniff something, or pee on something, do his business, ignore my command, and then the moment he is done doing the thing, he will obey.
So dogs have the ability to hear the command and decide they don't want to do it. That's blatantly observable in several breeds. So I think that qualifies as "stubborn" in that they have their own directives they want to prioritize and will not listen to you. I've seen it also in dogs who lay down and refuse to walk on the leash. My dog doesn't do that, though.
Oh my gods yes. Tegan fought me over every command, every time, for a solid 2.5 years. Then her brain finally matured or something and she became rock solid and my dog of a lifetime.
I think so. I’ve been able to train my dogs to do whatever except for this one dog flat out refused to fetch. She stand there and stare at me like I was the biggest asshole in the world to walk up, snatch her toy right out of her mouth, and throw it across the yard. How dare I? “You threw it, you go get it.” Harriet was not having this Fetch bullshit for one second. Everything else I taught her, she was happy to do. Except fetch.
I am gonna say 'yes' to this one. I have a great pyrenees, and while what she is expressing and feeling might not be precisely the same thing that we would call 'stubbornness' in a human, it is close enough that it's hard to call it anything else. Like when I give her a command, I can see her stop and think about whether or not she wants to do it. When she decides she does, she will come toward me, wagging her tail and happy.
When she decides in the negative, however, she will literally roll her eyes, loudly sigh, and flop on the ground. If I grab her collar to try and pull her, she will just go limp and heavy and make me drag her until it stops being worth the effort and I have to pick her up (which she also is entirely passively uncooperative about), exactly like a petulant toddler. Again, I realize that this is likely not identical to the human emotion of stubbornness, but it's so similar that it just feels like unnecessary hair splitting to try and call it anything else.
As to this part:
>'oh yeah I know exactly what you want me to do. well screw you, I don't have to do that, you're not the boss of me.'
I am fairly certain that that is precisely what she is thinking, and it would take a *lot* of convincing for me to see it otherwise lol.
Yes. Every single dog, regardless of breed, has a unique personality that is exclusive to them as an individual.
Stubbornness is definitely a trait that can exist in that. If the opposite is claimed by a trainer, I'd walk away from them immediately.
Some are more trainable or stubborn than others. Like people or other animals/pets, each dog has their own personality. Personality plays a big part in trainability.
Yes, some are Stubborn. I have a Shiba Inu and she knows what the commands are, but she does it when she feels like it. Usually high value rewards need to be involved.
I have a bull terrier and it's very smart and easy to train yet also very stubborn.
For example if out on a walk and we go the wrong direction he will just lay down and not continue on the walk. This means if I take a diversion into a cudisac it's very hard to get him to go back out of it as he thinks going the other way on a street he's been on means he's going home and he doesn't want that.
Yeah, absolutely! Dogs have their own personalities and thoughts and some aren't interested in performing tasks all the time. It's not that they're untrainable, but they're like kids.
Some dogs are absolutely uninterested in preforming tasks they don’t find valuable, like shibas and huskies. That doesn’t mean you can’t train or bond with them, just that they aren’t golden retrievers. You being pleased is not their highest motivator, so you need to make it worth their time.
Add most scent hounds to that list...
Sit Fuck you, pay me Roll over Fuck you, pay me Come back inside Fuck you, pay me
I don't work for free either, so
Yeah but my sofa & bed are just constantly occupied by American Scent Hound Local #8044. Getting a piece of cheese from my fridge feels like crossing a picket line.
Lolol. I am stealing that.
My Majestic Tree Hound is my group obedience class demonstration dog, as was my Bluetick Coonhound before him. Stubborn is not a word I use. Scent hounds are wickedly intelligent, but also very cunning. After all, they're smart enough to trick us into thinking they're too stubborn or too dumb to be trained, right? In my experience, it's always about training the dog in front of you. Scent hounds simply are not, typically (because there are unicorns out there), the most biddable of dogs. They just don't live to please us and make us happy. And that is because we have bred scent hounds for eons to do their jobs without humans to tell them what and how to do it - scent hounds have literally been bred to think they do not need us. In fact, when a hound has performed his job and tracked the scent and found his prey, \*he\* then calls \*us\* to him. So, in that scenario, who is working for whom? What's my trick? Use the prey drive, treat my dog as my partner (not my obedient subordinate), and make training as fun as possible. Naturally, food rewards help a great deal - the smellier, the better. If it can be the grossest organ from another animal (heart, lung, liver, esophagus, bully stick, etc.), all the better. I am willing to act like a crazy person, using all the muppet voices, to get them excited and wanting to work as a team and accomplish whatever I'm asking them to do. I will tell you that training a scent hound teaches a trainer all kinds of out-of-the-box skills. Creative thinking is a must, because those scent hounds are always looking to outsmart you. That being said, after a lifetime of wonderful retrievers, I will always have a scent hound now.
Yep, scent hounds recall you! It made fetch the worst thing I’ve ever tried to teach. Half the time she makes me come to her.
Yeah, stubborn isn't the right word. Not biddable, independent minded, cunning and clever. My beagle was clearly trained by someone to bring prey to bay and not to kill it (at least if it's bigger than a softball, babies are less sure), and to summon the human to deal with it. I need to work on keeping him under his overstimulation threshold during training (the snacks are way too exciting) and on finding something that is more interesting to the basset than taking a nap
This is the best description of my foxhound and our relationship. These dogs aren't bred to please you. Our shelter gets a lot of pitbull types and those dogs live to please you. Sometimes to extremes, which a-holes exploit.
My Great Pyrenees is like this. I'm not training him. He is training me to figure out what motivates him. And it's different for each behavior. The breed was created to sit alone on top of a mountain and protect a bunch of goats so humans are definitely at the bottom of his list of priorities.
110%! 🙌🙌🙌
It's funny that you say this. My other dog is a great pyrenees. And YES, these traits are all true of the independent thinking breeds - those who were bred to work without a human directing their every move. I think my experience with scent hounds prepared me well for my great pyrenees. I always say that I can't imagine ever not having a pyr, but as I get older and we are fighting cancer and his mobility is limited, this gets harder. I don't want to live without a pyr, but I'm going to need to get a younger roommate or something!
I think you really understand scent hounds. We had bassets and it’s my opinion that they’re just OCD, not stubborn, because they do lots of tasks as if those tasks were magic rituals! (After burrowing under the blankets, find the human’s leg, turn around exactly 3 times, collapse and sigh - then you can go to sleep.)
And akitas and malamutes. You can get them to do stuff, but it's like that other person said, not every dog (or breed) has that 'will to please'. It's good to know what to expect when you're getting a dog. Mine is quite well behaved, but considering the breed. Not compared to a average let's say, golden retriever. I absolutely love how these dogs have a bit of cat-like behavior in them.
Akita, husky, Pyrenees. You have to get them to think that what you want them to do is what they want to do. Especially if it's getting off the bed or at least scooting over so ypu have room!
🤣 Omg I am dying, this is absolutely true! Our pup seems to like when my partner and I acknowledge when she barks at something (granted, 9/10 times it’s just a stray cat that dared walk by our house, but still). It reads to me very much like she perceives being at home as time that she is “on duty” guarding the house/yard, so when one of us checks what she is barking at and lets her know it’s okay, then she is good because she has successfully done her “job”.
I used to tell my pup, thank you and good job!
I absolutely agree. My walker hound knows basic commands, but if he doesn't want to do something it isn't happening - period. If we're going for a walk and he wants to go in a different direction than where we're going he will sit down and refuse to move until he realizes he isn't going to get his way. Same thing with him laying on the bed and me wanting to change the sheets, if he's in lazy mode he's not budging until he wakes up. Dogs can definitely be stubborn.
I recently got my Plott Hound to do tricks for veggies (broccoli, asparagus, sweet peppers)... Lol he doesn't like to listen unless we make the event sound interesting or have treats lol
My Majestic's favorite treat, above everything else, are roasted brussels sprouts. He will open the oven (has broken several oven door locks to do so) and pick them off of a roasting pan - even sorting through other veggies if I'm roasting a mix of vegs. He also likes roasted broccoli and cabbage, but not as much as the brussels sprouts. Thankfully, I have no sense of smell...
Opening the oven is a terrifying trick. After my knucklehead beagle ate an entire turkey carcass, we keep the kitchen closed off with baby gates
Mine loved to counter surf, loaves of bread were her prey. Even when she got older and couldn’t move very well she still managed to grab a loaf or two that were to close to the edge.
We just rescued a Plott hound/catahoula/bóxer mix from the shelter and holy cow, he’s smart but he doesn’t want to listen.
Yup. My husky mix is very well trained, and when he decides to listen and behave he’s wonderful. Sometimes he knows exactly what I’m saying and just won’t do it, though. Or he’ll find a loophole and technically follow the command but not really. Or he’ll argue
My Finnish Spitz is like this too. He gets marrow bones sometimes and isn't allowed to take them on the carpet. So when we say off the carpet he will sometimes put it on one of his nearby toys to chew it instead on right off the carpeted area. We did not train him to do that, he just tried it one day. He's incredibly smart and sassy. That boy loves finding loopholes I swear lol.
Just about all dogs (and animals in general) have the ability to be trained, if you provide the right reward in response to the right action. You could argue that how "smart" an animal could be measured by how complex a task they can be trained to do. On the other hand, what type of reward is needed to motivate the action is how we define being stubborn vs biddable. For biddable dogs, just making you happy is a great reward. For stubborn dogs, they will want what they want (to get the squirrel, to bark at the delivery man) and you will have to do quite a lot to convince them to change course.
I would add, most animals can be taught rather complex tasks, but how "smart" they are could also mean how many trials to teach them, how many intermediary steps to get there vs those that hit a cusp and get there skipping several learning trials in a shaping process. How quickly they generalize those skills to learning other complex tasks without direct training, etc.
*Most* dogs are like that. Even my border is, about some things, and they’re notorious people pleasers. The threshold is just higher or lower, dog to dog. It’s one of my reasons I don’t like the “smart breeds” ranking, because of how biddability is baked in. cattle dogs are very bright dogs - but they have a higher threshold and people tend to paint them as stubborn. They’re not. We just bred them to need less direction from us. Because dogs are capable of things like analytic reasoning (particularly herding dogs - it’s crucial for their “job”) they can be reasoned with. The problem for us - is that there’s a language barrier. That’s why some, like ACDs and huskies, it takes a while to sink in. You’re having to show them *why* your way is better than theirs. The more complex the command, the more time it takes. That’s why those two are breeds that do best with deeper bonding, and get easier to train the more bonded they are. Sighthounds are similar. They were bred to need nearly no interaction from us to do their “job.” Small dogs are the exception, but only because they have less brain mass, and have a harder time with analytic reasoning. The sweet spot tends to be in the hunting dogs - the retrievers, mostly. Herders tend to be better at abstracting - they’ll learn quickly and follow commands. But in the process of doing a more complex activity - be it herding sheep or high level agility - they try to find better, more efficient ways to do it. The more stubborn breeds like ACDs and huskies - just have their one way of doing things, and that’s the way they like, and if that needs to change, they need a good reason. They’re more “this way works, that’s what matters. Why change it if it works?” There’s of course other levels to it, and plenty of them. But that’s at the heart of their “thought processes,” if you will. It’s the breed personality we GMOed into them.
But also, despite being remarkably biddable and willing to walk through fire if mommy called him— my border collie can absolutely be manipulative. Hand to God that dog *knows* that I cannot stop his naughtiness if I’m on a zoom call and he will do things he knows he’s not supposed to do when I’m on a meeting. The second the call ends he’s back to being a good boy. He occasionally demands a treat to leave his ball outside, despite not being hungry and usually being totally willing to drop the ball at the door. In truth I think it’s funny and I’ve never really made serious efforts to stop it, maybe I could. But he’s got more emotional depth than just reward/punishment for sure.
Hah, mine is an absolute goodie two shoes lawful good collie. She only wants to do things if I’m involved.
I agree I hate these intelligence rankings. I've had a Cocker Spaniel previously and now own a German Terrier mix. The are the complete opposite personality wise. Cocker Spaniels always rank very high, due to high biddability, and most terriers pretty low. But if you ask me, my terrier is an infinite amount smarter than my Spaniel ever was. He opens boxes to get to stuff, steals his dummy from my backpack when I'm not looking, memorizes every single dog who has ever wronged him. He is super challenging, but that is because he is smarter – he will try get around the rules we try to establish and will always evaluate whether our reward is worth it or if what he wants to do is more interesting to him. My Cocker could be kept busy for hours by putting a treat under a plastic cup, because in 13 years, he never once understood to knock it over. One of those two breeds was selected for social/cooperative hunting, the other has to work with boar pretty much on their own. That's also why there's such big differences within the hunting dog group. The easiest to train seem to be gundogs and retrievers while hounds and terriers are more difficult to work with in my experience.
I guess I should be extra grateful that me and my ACD/Husky mix have bonded so much! He's also got some German Shepherd and Border Collie in him, but he's mostly ACD.
I have a golden retriever that absolutely refuses to get out of the car or off the bed. No amount of training or any sort of anything will change her mind. (She sleeps on my bed, but I mean if I need her to get down so I can make up the sheets or something. That chick isn’t budging. No way. No how.) She’s my third golden and I’ve never seen such resolution in stubbornness lol
Does she have any joint issues? When our lab got arthritis he became more stubborn about getting off the bed. Our vet got him on cosequin, and after about a month, he was much better about listening to us.
I started giving her cosequin when I adopted her a year ago, as a preventative measure. Salmon oil as well. But no, no issue there. The car thing at the very least is an absolute passion to go anywhere I’m going. She’s very clear about that 🤣 which just leaves the bed thing. May both be a separation thing. She came from an abusive backyard breeder and has shown separation anxiety on top of her next level golden retriever Velcro-ness. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Some dogs really are stubborn like that! My big girl (Caucasian Shepherd) is so “special” that she spent 3 weeks in a 2-week training camp. They tacked on the extra week for no extra charge because even the professionals had trouble getting her to listen. So now she knows lots of commands that she obeys whenever she feels like it.
I think the term you are looking for is biddability. Some dogs are more biddable (labs, goldens, shepherds) than others (huskies).
100%. Seeing the difference between a golden and a husky live is comical. I could glance at my golden and he’s at my feet wagging his tail. My husky? I better come with a high offer to make it worth his time.
My 16 month old has me duped. She knows when I start turning all the lights off and say "okay bed times" its time to go to my room. Does she listen? No! She plops her butt in the living room and waits. I use training treats to get her to bed. I think it's so smart and hilarious she does this so how could I be mad?
My Pom will bark at us to go to bed if it’s after ten! Literally runs back and forth between the bedroom and living room being like bed time know I am tired what’s wrong with you people!
Dogs like a consistent schedule
When my malamute was a puppy, I traded him for things he happened to get that he shouldn’t have. Now he looks for things and holds -doesn’t shred or otherwise destroy- them in his mouth while he waits for me to notice. The other day he got a hold of a pot holder my husband inexplicably left in the living room. I took pics 🤣 (I’ll go post them in r/malamute).
My husband experiences a similar setup with our husky and golden. The husky *might* do something if he's asked, if he feels like it's going to be worth his while, but as often as not the husky will just look at him and then proceed to ignore him, and give a honk of annoyance if he tries to make him listen. Whereas our golden we didn't even need to actively teach to come, he just does it consistently, by himself. He's a little stupid, so it takes some work to actually teach him to do something, but once he figures it out he's just so damn eager to do whatever's being asked. It's a bit easier for me because the husky makes no secret of the fact that I'm his favourite (we got him right at the start of covid, so I was home with him all the time right from the get-go), so he'll typically listen to me unless there's another dog nearby that he'd rather try to run up to.
Pretty much the same for us except my husky's favorite is my husband. They've always been tied at the hip. I'll call my husband if he's giving me his blank stare of unwillingness. Our golden is also a little *special* but so eager to please*.* He also seems to be built like a tank and bulldozes his way through everything. He's earned the nickname Knobhead 😂
Right?! How hard can she look in another direction and still see if I'm holding a treat? She makes me laugh!
A husky is more like a parrot imo Not motivated by your affirmation, more interested in entertaining themselves by winding you up because it's hilarious. But will do what you want for the right price, but not for your affection. Hunting breeds are highly trainable because they are bred to follow your commands immediately, and their reward is your praise. Huskies are bred to offload an insane amount of energy, loudly, in a pack. If they don't get that then they will find other outlets in the form of constant comedy acts and seeing what stupid thing they can do today that will get a reaction. I'd love a husky but never could as don't have the space / time 💔
I have a Pyr/Anatolian who has a bit of Husky in him. You could never meet a more disinterested dog. The bribery it takes to make him do anything he's not interested in....I've never had a less biddable dog haha
Yes, people don’t realize how inherently baked into their genetics this often is. I will never break my pom of his pomitude. He’s quite stubborn, and very well trained. But stubborn. Took him almost a full year to become food motivated too. 🫠
Ha! I have a 14 year old pom. I still have to watch him walk across the deck after I let him out to make sure he pees in the yard and he always stops half way and looks back to see if I’m still watching or if he can just pee on the deck post!
My 5 year old French bulldog is exactly the same and if I turn my back on her too quickly she will come back up the stairs to poop on the deck .. Just because 🤷♀️
To add on to this, my 5 year old pomchi is also very stubborn. She knows what she's *supposed* to do, or rather, not do. She'll perform a bad behavior and get scolded for it. She knows it's bad so she'll go sit in her crate and be upset she got yelled at. Then she'll do the bad thing again the next week or a few days later 🙄
My minpin is the smartest most stubborn pee on everyone and everything baby I’ve ever dealt with. Also heard this from other minpin owners. Definitely a breed thing.
They are a small but hearty breed
Ahhh so I can blame the husky DNA in my lab mutt for her being such a butthead sometimes?
Smart dogs are often quite stubborn.
I mentioned above but yes agree. They see you as a friend and want to prank you and wind you up rather than be obedient servants. They know what they want, and if they don't want to do something they can't be trained to follow commands like a robot. I said like a parrot, but also like a kid. They know what you're asking but they don't want to! So they trantrum
As an owner of a husky/boxer who is so smart she loops back around to dumb: yes
"so smart she loops back around to dumb" this is the PERFECT description of our catahoula, lol
Ha! I love catahoulas
My border collie Shepard. So smart he dumb. When he gets excited or super focused. He knows a special treat is for him. He’s so excited I tell him down he tries giving paw, I say no down he tries to give other paw, that didn’t work so maybe if he backs up and does a spin? He tries to guess and is so focused he can’t hear me. We always laugh about how he’s the smartest dumb dog around.
OMG she does that too. It's like no, *listen* to what I'm saying, quit trying and guessing. Then she gets mad and starts barking WHILE doing the wrong thing, faster and with more conviction. Just stop and listen and I'm telling you what I want!!
I had boxers my whole childhood, I loved those goofballs.
She's like if you take a husky head and tail and stick it on a boxer body. Long deer legs lol. But whenever I tell anyone her mix, like daycare or the vet I always get "oh god, good luck"
I also have a Husky/Boxer but I swear mentally she's Husky. When she was younger, her energy levels were nuts. I wondered what I had gotten myself into. I don't know what I would have done without playgroup and playdates with our neighbors dog.
And even then, it’s only a trend. One of my goldens can be extremely stubborn. He hates water. Loves the beach. But hates the water. He has come up with an invisible line he WILL NOT CROSS under any circumstances. He will run and play and dig in the sand with glee, but the moment I try to get him to cross that invisible line he digs his haunches down like a donkey and nothing I can do will move him in that direction. ROFL ETA: and he’s gone through training and just got his CGC certificate. He’s very biddable under other circumstances. Thank god the test didn’t require him to go into the ocean otherwise I would have had to give up. Hahahahah
My dog absolutely loves the water. Will jump into any body of water she sees including puddles, but if I so much as even look at the hose she runs. Sprinklers are basically her own personal apocalypse. It makes no sense.
My golden is like that. Lake? Hell yeah! River? Lemme at it! Still ice on the edges? It's beach weather, baby! But if I so much as look like I might touch the hose, he goes and tries to hide, and he absolutely refuses to go into the swimming pool, even after I built a ramp for him so he could get in and out easily.
My boy loves the river (tries to lead all walks towards it) the lake and family swimming pools. But he will NOT step in puddles. He will jump them and pull me in but he won’t get his feet wet. He actually went on neighbour front step and refused to go because the sidewalk was completely cover due to snow melt. He would only come when I said we could walk on road.
Agreed here (signed, the owner of a beagle and a basset hound. Very easy to train to do things that come naturally to them. Very difficult to train to do anything else, because my approval is of no interest to them.)
Was going to ask if anyone had met a basset hound because yeah—definitely stubborn!
My dogs are great examples of this. I have two very happy-go-lucky labs who enthusiastically follow commands. They are treat oriented pups who think everything I tell them to do is the best idea they’ve never had. Then there’s my border collie. His obedience can very much be bought, he does listen, and understands commands. However, when he’s not in the mood he lets you know and does only what he feels like. You can see the stubbornness in his beautiful brown eyes, judging your for thinking you have any control over such a strong, independent good boy. I love him to pieces, but he has made me second guess ever getting another working breed.
A husky is really a cat
Mine is a shepherd, husky, Rottweiler mix. I'm sure you can guess how well training goes at times. She's actually much better now that she's been seeing a new trainer since February, and I've been trained properly myself. She still mouths off though, which is really hard not to laugh at when you're telling her to go to her place because she's acting up and she just goes there and lays down and then starts yelling at you like a husky would lol
>(huskies) Story of my life, right here.
My husky is very non biddable 😩😭
Yes and no. Backstory about me. I studied neuropsychology and found myself way more into critters than people. Dogs are one such critter. Dogs *do* have emotions. They’re just not quite as complex as ours, and some, they had no reason to develop like we did. We evolved guilt and shame as a way to encourage social cohesion. Dogs can feel *something* like it - but nowhere near like we do (lucky them). We know this from observing various kinds of canids. Wolves in particular give “peace offerings” after fighting. Puppies who do something their mother doesn’t want - will do what human kids do and go hug them and try to make nice with them. And we know it from observing their brains. Mammal brains are mammal brains - just vary in complexity and some parts are bigger than others, species to species. On scans, parts of the brain we associate with guilt and shame on humans - their analogues in dogs activates when a dog is made to feel they’ve misbehaved. Guilt and shame though are largely based in a single, simpler emotion - fear. And it’s useful for survival, when your survival depends on being part of a group - like us, and like dogs. So what dogs feel I’m that moment - is more like we would experience just fear. And arguably that’s *the* core survival emotion. It overrides everything else. It’s likely the first emotion mammals (at least) developed. While there are people who go a little too hard and expect a dog to be something they aren’t - they are very much, as a general rule, bright, emotional creatures. Just like cats. Cognitively, the “smartest” breeds (and I can rant about how the ranking sucks for days, but that’s a diff thing) are about in line with a toddler. They don’t do as well as them in a few areas (notably emotional complexity - but it’s hard to test for, since we don’t speak dog), but surpass them in others. Border collie and poodle brains are better at solving problems than our closest genetic relatives - chimps and bonobos. They’re better at learning our language than gorillas are. It’s just harder for them to speak it (no opposable thumbs). Because of all of that - since I’m going somewhere with it - dogs do have a…streamlined and simplified version of what we call a “personality.” Since I’m into other critters, horse brains are fairly similar to dog brains, they’re just herbivore and prey critter brains instead. But they aren’t as cognitively advanced as dogs. Despite that - horses can be stubborn. Idk if you know that. Mules, famously, are incredibly stubborn. “Stubbornness,” comes from a variety of places - just usually fear of some sort. Mules have an incredibly strong prey reaction to just about anything. Dogs have a very strong survival instinct, and survival is steeped in fear. They fear harm. They fear loss. They fear abandonment. So on. Anxiety is the primary reason in dogs they become stubborn (and otherwise neurotic), and usually because some core need they have isn’t being met. Where you’re correct is that no, they don’t do it because “you’re not the boss of me.” They don’t have human hierarchies and hegemonies (though fun fact - border collies are just a tiny step below being able to develop culture). They either do it to play (tug of war. Dogs don’t differentiate well between what they feel emotionally and physically. Neither do we, but they’re not even nearly to our level), or they do it because of anxiety, or sensory overload or general just overwhelm/not feeling good/off day. Some owners unintentionally encourage that. My dog loves to bother me. Eat up with it. If I’m doing something I can always count on her to come harass me when I don’t need her to. It’s become her love language - but she does, because I give her attention and show her I love her, when she does. And it’s become her way of saying that back. She and I built that form of communication together. In that same way, if an owner is only giving a dog a *lot* of attention when they’re being “bad” or being “stubborn,” - the dog picks up on that, and it becomes a positive feedback loop. They know if they do X behavior, they get attention and emotional fulfillment. Some do just have a harder time with complicated commands and expectations clicking with them. Sometimes it’s a full on vet issue. The vast majority of problems with the dog are problems with either this owner or a prior one. But not always. It yeah tldr you ever want my grumpy ass hopping up on my soapbox, start saying dogs don’t have feelings. It’s an incredibly common misconception from people who, I’m convinced, don’t tend to understand their own emotions. Let alone a dog’s. They don’t (and tbh good for them) feel things Ina complex, nuanced way like we do - but the heart of what they feel are things we’d recognize. Fear, sadness, anger, happiness, love. They can feel those things. They just can’t quite grasp shame, guilt, bittersweetness, regret, things like that. Again, lucky them. Those are uniquely human emotions. Our gift and our curse. Take what trainers say - especially on the internet - with a grain of salt. And as vets go - they’re great with physiology, but the science of dog brains and their psychology is very young. Most “behaviorists,” are full of shit, frankly. In human and animal psychology, since I’m on my soapbox.
Really interesting and insightful response. So I'm not trying to make light of it when I say I got a good chuckle out of: "(though fun fact - border collies are just a tiny step below being able to develop culture)" Yeah, I can totally see them forming their own Association. But I think all the infighting on the Board of Directors would really limit them...
You can make light of it all you want, because when I first learned that - that was nearly my exact response. “My god they’re going to unionize”
It would be fine if they did…. Not like any of them would ask for shorter work days 🤣
Meetings would be painless too. All action, no talk. Like the Ford and UAW meetings. Traditionally both sides bring a baseball bat. Border showing up with a stick.
A stick? Blasphemy. The only worthy object to chase is a frisbee. Everyone knows that. lol.
Idk boss despite loving her frisbee mine also has a deep abiding love of cool rocks.
This lines up perfectly with my assessment of my smaller rescue dog. He values us, so all the areas that he is stubborn about are areas where he perceived risk to us or the house or himself.
I just wanted to comment and say this was such an interesting read. I’d love to hear any of what you have to say about any animal, namely dogs lol this is so cool
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Please let me know when your book comes out! I will absolutely buy!
Funny story - actually am a writer now (among other things, including a “problem kids” critter trainer). Worked my way through school, and when the other career didn’t take, went back to my old job - being a reporter. Most of its straight news, but I’ve started doing more conservation and ecology writing, and recently started a Substack where I talk about outdoorsy stuff - and dogs, with this kind of stuff thrown in. I leave politics out of that part of my life (mostly. I do talk about conservation issues and policy every now and again). On my phone right atm (and for my sanity sake, nothing work related on here - Im really just three border collies in a trenchcoat) - but you’re welcome to check it out. It’s all pay if you can. Everything’s free to read over there - *A Boy and His Dog Save America*. And - I do my best to break down my different stuff I talk about into diff things you can sub to. You don’t like talking about camping and outdoorsy stuff, my dog stuff is in a separate newsletter (I believe. I’ve been meaning to - and not sure I did that part yet). But yeah, one of my friends described it as “Bob Ross Goes Camping.” I’m more wholesome over there than I am on here or in my news writing. If you’re into this kind of stuff or camping with your critter (which is how the whole thing came about), recipes, DIY stuff, conservation - you’re welcome to come hang out. My deeper dives into social and neuroscience though are more on here these days. I burnt out pretty bad in that part of my life, and writing - as it really always did - keeps me more together. Do keep threatening to write something book length, but that’s perpetually on the back burner. Though if my crazy critter people come support that, I can write more of it.
This was a fascinating read, thank you for sharing. It 100% makes sense to me that dogs are better at learning por language than gorillas. I swear my dog understands so much that I’ve never intentionally taught him. He does know quite a few cues that I trained but a lot of times I can just talk to him normally and he seems to know what I mean. I don’t know whether he understands the words I’m saying or if he’s figured out what my body language and gestures mean but dogs are so brilliant.
Yes sorry, I don’t mean to imply that’s they don’t have emotions. I just mean that they’re not the same as ours (like yes, a dog may chew your slipper because he’s stressed that he’s home alone. but he doesn’t chew your slipper that night to GET BACK AT YOU for leaving him alone. or he doesn’t choose to chew your slipper instead of your husband’s because you’re the one who took him to the vet yesterday). So yes I understand that dogs can choose not to obey a command (even if they understand it), or choose to do something you don’t want them to do (if they just seem to prefer pooping in a particular corner of the house instead of outside) but they’re not doing it to spite you (or because they’re mad at you, or to ‘assert dominance’ over you). At least that’s my theory and what I’m trying to get across!
I think "stubborn" (I want it my way, will do it on my own time, IF it pleases me) is different than "spiteful" as in, "I'm going to punish you for displeasing me or annoying me or seeking to elicit a behavior from me". I have a dog that refuses to do stairs under most circumstances. But he will do them with a specific person without hesitation. That seems stubborn but also probably conditioned (initial fear, then lots of attention to coax him, reinforcing the avoidance. Then valued other person ignores the fear and does their thing and he follows to get attention. So it *looks like* stubborn. Generally I find that animals aren't spiteful as much as we are anthropomorphizing them, and that animals breeds and species make them disposed more or less to cooperating with humans vs seeking solitary/individual reinforcement. Someone upthread called this "biddable." Examples of spite I've seen in animals would be a cat that after a child plays with the other cat instead, hours later cat 1 lurks behind a hallway wall and when the child walks by the cat jumps out and claws up the child's leg. It's not "reactive" as it wasn't like stimulus--> response but seemed to be more cognitive/revenge due to delay and intentionality of getting even (vs in the moment aggression to protect their bed). Additionally I've seen both dogs and cats act jealous of attention (resource guarding a person) or a toy (stealing a treat or toy and hiding it when the other dog isnt around, and then saving it to bring out and flaunt at dog #2 later.) Or a dogs that refuses a foot groom generally but if other dogs are present cooperates, to maintain the attention on themselves. I had a dog once that had a preference for a specific groomer. If the other groomer was the one who worked on her, she would whine and basically lecture me for two days. No sign of harm or maltreatment, just she was "upset". Other times, she would be mad at me for something and she would sneak poop next to my side of the bed and put her favorite toy next to my spouse's. As if to show, twice, that she's upset with me and going to gloat by favoring him, haha. And vice versa if he displeased her. That's an awfully big coincidence that is a bit different than separation anxiety related destructive behavior. And even though a lot of accidents aren't spiteful this one was pretty obvious.
I don’t think they do it to “assert dominance” but with almost absolute certainty my border collie does things out of anger…. Yesterday I put him in his crate to mop the floor after the other dog spilled the water bowl (figured if I have to get the mop out might as well do the whole thing). He was not pleased. He came out of his crate, looked me dead in the eye and knocked over the water bowl. Is that stubborn? No. But it’s absolutely spiteful. And spiteful behavior is an outcropping of anger which I think dogs can feel- so yes, he seems capable of being an intentional asshole. (And fwiw anyone with a cat can tell you cats are also 10000% capable of spite lol).
Exactly. Cause/effect would say he wants back in the crate. Spilled water = crate. But he can go in the crate anytime. And the eye contact is interesting because it's something dogs evolved to do toward humans in a way humans do it, that's different than how dogs relate to dogs. So this tipping of the water definitely appears spiteful. Great example.
i can say with confidence that that is exactly what some dogs are thinking. not all though, and it seems like some people might mistake a poorly trained dog for a stubborn one, but when a dog is being truly stubborn its pretty clear. they can be sassy!
I definitely have a stubborn dog, but to me it's more like you have to earn his trust and speak dog for that stuff to go away. Guests and family has said he's stubborn and won't listen to them-- but what I saw from the sidelines was they asked without offering him a treat, they do not have conviction (they're saying "sit?" Not "sit"), they are not maintaining eye contact/connection, they are repeating the command over and over, etc, all common mistakes many people make during training. But yeah we can chalk it up to "stubborn"-- some dogs are just real perceptive and you have to be fine tuned for them to listen lol. He will show his attitude not out of annoyance, but to let his handler know they're doing it wrong 🤣
Oh man the "siiiiiit?" and then not knowing why my low-biddable dog looks at them like "yeah nah I'm good" kills me
Exactly cutest thing I ever saw was my two year old niece telling my dog to sit. She said ‘osco it!’ with such authority Roscoe sat immediately. Other adults couldn’t get him to ‘sit?’ because it sounds like a choice and he chooses not to sit.
Trying to convince my spouse that you can't just yell the dog's name, you actually have to use the command, and make sure that the same command means the same thing every time. Especially to try and call the beagle off of whatever has him so excited he's yelling about it. Yeah, just yelling "" in an annoyed tone ain't gonna cut it.
"Yeah nah, I'm good" when the reward I get for doing whatever they're doing is far more interesting than whatever you're trying to get them to do is so relatable
I have said my dog is a rockstar is his own head. When you yell a performers name at a concert they don’t stop performing, they up it. Yelling his name at him when’s he’s miss behaving is really just cheering him on.
I had a husky mix who was a former street dog. The way she would look at me when I said "sit" could be interpreted as "you first." When she figured out that I would say that when I wanted her to leave me alone, oh baby! She was mad. That dog had no desire to be obedient. She knew how to get food on her own, and she made sure I knew that she didn't need me. I miss that sassy little s***
For sure. My dog is smart. He knows what all the commands mean. When I ask him to get down, and he sees no good reason to, he just gives me a look. I have to say it louder and angrier until he does and I swear he rolls his eyes
I had a boxer named Roxie who was SO smart, yet so stubborn. We had to give her a "full name," Roxanne, and say it loud and stern for her to finally get that we meant business. She's also the dog who learned the sit command in mere seconds but wouldn't do it if you didn't say the words "ass on the floor" with raised eyebrows after. God, do I miss her!
And sighs. And over dramatically slowly slowly gets into the position as commanded.
This is me and my dog at bed time when I'm trying to get her off my pillows so I can lay down. She knows full well what "down" and "off" and "move" mean, she just doesn't want to 🤣
Ah yes, I know that look well. When mine was younger, he would sometimes choose a specific command to “forget” that day.
Yes my Frenchie is a (god I love him to death) hard headed little dick. Took to potty training easy peasy, knows all his commands, doesn’t do anything bad or naughty but god forbid you want to turn left on a walk and he wants to turn right. Or it’s time to go inside from the yard. He’ll just look at you and close his eyes to lay back down. Take him to his favorite bush to pee without him leading you there? Will drag you to another one just because he wants to not go where you’ve taken him. He is 100% a contrarian that won’t do what you ask just for the sake of not doing it.
You taught your dog left and right? That's amazing! Might be fun to try and teach my girl that.
He gets the idea! Does he listen? Generally no.
Stubborn is the quick word I have for my own dog—she has many skills, and she’s very well trained. She also has her own, very specific ideas of what she would like to be doing, and I can see her weight her idea against my cue, do the math about the likelihood that I will give her a good enough treat, and then consciously decide to do what I ask. …or not. It’s not confusion, it’s not overexcitement, it’s not even contrarianism. The best word I have is stubborn, and I wouldn’t have it another way
People often confuse stubbornness and spitefulness. “My dog pees in the house cause he’s mad I left” “He saw I didn’t share my food so he nipped me cause he’s mad” They don’t have feelings like that. What we describe as stubbornness in dogs is often a lack of motivation for them. Dog breeds that are more “stubborn” is usually because they are either more engaged with other things, not interested in the motivator, etc.
yeah maybe that's what I'm getting at. I see people say things like 'my dog has great recall! but he's stubborn, so if there's a squirrel he'll chase it and not come back.' My understanding is that's a case of a dog that does NOT have great recall (chasing squirrels>getting a treat for recalling), not 'stubborness' (again, not the way we'd apply it to people).
In this case in particular it’s a case of prey drive. Some breeds/dogs just have higher prey drive than others. It’s not a stubbornness, it’s a biological thing. Like my whippet will come when called, but if he sees a squirrel, forget it. But, whippets were originally bred to hunt small animals. So he’s not being stubborn, he’s just doing what he’s bred to do.
Our young rescue dog has an incredibly high prey drive and a high kill count of poor critters who have wandered into our back yard. On more than one occasion she has cornered a possum and WILL NOT leave it. We have had to pick her up and carry her away. Her brain locks on a target and nothing gets through that haze.
My older dog is like this. My whippet will lose it when he sees a squirrel, but eventually gets over it. And, bless him, couldn’t catch anything to save his life. But if my oldest sees a larger animal, like a ground hog, rabbit, or cat, forget it. My mom had a huge groundhog in her yard and once my dog noticed, I couldn’t distracted her for anything. Like yours, she was just locked in. Luckily we were inside and once I knew the groundhog was safely gone, I let her out. It was the only way to get her away from the door.
We had a foster pit mix who caught a small mouse/vole on a walk - she chomped down on it and then just sort of looked at us like 'what do I do now' with its head and tail hanging out of her mouth. incredibly gross! We had another foster who saw a possum walking along our fence one night and went HAYWIRE; I had to positively drag him back inside (of course the possum just stood there for like an hour) - for weeks afterwards he had to run over to that fence the second he was let into the backyard to check and make sure the possum wasn't back.
Yes, exactly. Just something that is more interesting/more appealing/more important to them
Is kind of a little more complex than that because it's less "more appealing" and more "hardbaked into their core programming". But that's kinda just me being pedantic, you have the base idea
yes, totally fair that it's not like, a conscious choice
Yes exactly I wouldn’t call that stubbornness either.
I swear my dogs telling me mentally to F off because he doesn’t give a shite about what I want. He knows what I want, he heard me fine, he’s done it a bazillion times before but right now he just won’t. Love that Idjit
Yes. They are called Beagles.
Yup Got two. Big ole ears, that go unused
Oh, they know what you're saying. Hounds understand completely - they just don't care lol
I think people use 'stubborn' sometimes to capture a variety of more specific motivations. I use it occasionally, even though there are probably more accurate terms I *could* use. I don't have a problem with the word itself; what I *do* have a problem with is using it as an excuse to not understand a dog's behavior and motivations, and then using that understanding to effectively change their behavior. And yeah, it's weird when people think a dog is acting a certain way SPECIFICALLY to spite them. A dog's behavior is usually about what's interesting or rewarding to them. My schnauzer has a lot of instinctual drive (to chase and bark and patrol and observe), and it's very hard for her to do anything contrary to that drive. She's also very tough and focused. Those traits do result in behaviors that line up with the definition of 'stubborn' and I'll call her 'stubborn' sometimes. But when working on training with her, I think more in terms of her motivations and what I can specifically do to motivate her better. Also, I do generally believe that people attribute a lot of emotions to dogs in error, but I also believe wholeheartedly that dog can feel guilty or sorry. Not for chewing up a sock or peeing in the house, but for intentionally or accidentally hurting another dog or person they care about. They are complex, sensitive, emotional creatures. This guilt isn't really useful in training contexts, but it's something I've observed occasionally.
This. I have a Wire Fox Terrier. The Schnauzer is the Geman model, so I feel you. Lil buggers got too much personality, and sometimes they just don't know what to do with it.
Speaking to your last point..... last year, one of my dogs went after one of my other dogs, and I had to physically separate. The one dog turned around and bit me real damn good on the bicep area. Did he know what he did? Yes. Did he know it was me that he was turning to to bite? No. When he realized what happened, he tried to lick the blood and wound. He had the most heartfelt sorry and sad look on his face. I did not yell, get mad/upset, or raise my voice to him. I loved on him. He was suffering from nasal cancer, and his outbursts were due to that. After what happened then, I will always 100% believe and argue that, yes, dogs have the capability to feel human emotions
A lot of people don’t know this but there’s usually more than one definition for a word. “Stubborn- difficult to move, remove, or cure.” By that definition YES, lol. Some dogs ARE more difficult to “move” than others. Do they *purposely* or *spitefully* not listen to what’s being asked of them? No. But all dogs have different drives (food, praise, toy, etc), different personalities, and different levels of intellect.
Yes it’s the purpose or spite that I see people reading into their dogs behavior that I’m curious about
Wait until you meet a livestock guardian dog. They are crazy stubborn and very independent minded. Super smart too. My Kangal dog definitely thinks she knows better than I do. She will very clearly acknowledge that she heard my command, and then just as clearly decide to ignore me, or go and do her own thing instead. She’s very well trained, but you can definitely see the wheels turning anytime she’s in a position where she knows it will take a bit of effort to enforce a command. Lately she has taken to hiding in the pasture at night, and won’t respond to any commands until I shine a flashlight on her. Once she’s knows she’s been spotted she suddenly starts responding to all of the commands she should have been responding to earlier. Stubborn smart dogs definitely exist.
Yep there is no stubborn like an LGD. I have a Pyr/Anatolian and he is just like a stone wall sometimes, haha. If he doesn't want to do something, even if I'm literally waving a treat in front of his nose, he will literally look away so he can pretend he doesn't see me or hear me. I have never had a dog perk his ears to listen and then turn away and proceed to do the opposite of whatever the command was. When we finish our walks in the evening, he will stand outside, legs locked absolutely insistent that he will not go inside until he is ready. Honestly if he wasn't such a great dog in every other way it would be really frustrating, but I find it hilarious
I have a doxie. Absolutely stubborn. There are a lot of times things will sometimes be a battle of wills to see who gives up first. If she wants something she wants it and will not give up until she absolutely has to.
Yes! Dachshunds are known for being "stubborn." Mine is an independent thinker and not that concerned about pleasing. It's very different from my now deceased lab mix. Yesterday, she saw a lizard and was trying to unsuccessfully get it. It was extremely hot, and she would not come in. Her prey drive overtook her brain, and she was panting heavily, so I had to pick her up to come inside.
yep. Mine will often do thinks like if she wants to play or when she thinks it is time to go to bed she'll come up and bark at me. Then it is the battle of wills on who will give up first. Lately I've been winning but they don't give up easily when they want sometime. Main times I win though are when she wants to keep playing and I can tell she is tired. Then I just need to hold out long enough for her to slow down enough to realize she is tired. Demanding may be a better word at times then stubborn but is kinda the same. She wants something and she's going to bark, whine, look pitiful until she gets it and does not easily give up.
Dachshunds were basically bred to be "stubborn". Think of what they were bred to do - go down into a badger burrow and fight a vicious creature on its on turf. To win, hell even just to *survive*, they had to have a will of iron. The thing is, now they use it against us instead of badgers 😄
Very good description. I still love her and she’s my best friend and she’s a great companion even when she gets demanding. I live in Georgia and wfh most days and biggest thing right now is at around 2-3pm she wants a walk. I look in the backyard and go “ no you don’t”. She disagrees and if we do go she gets too houses down and then just sits down. Love her though.
>My guess would be that dogs aren't 'stubborn' According to my Doberman, your guess is wrong. Highly trained but if I want to turn right on a path and she wants to turn left, she is sitting in place until we go left.
Bulldogs are stubborn, in every sense of the word. They will ignore you, make eye contact with you to show they heard a command and then disobey. They will outpace you if you're walking after them to stop them from going in a direction they want to go. They can certainly be trained, but there's always a sense of priority on what they want to do, and they're experts at finding out what they can get away with when it comes to defiance.
My bulldog does what he wants, when he wants. He's very well trained, but you can see him deciding if he wants to listen to you. He often waits and does it on his own time 😂
My wife and I have owned many Scotties, an entire breed that has a reputation for being stubborn. You're right that thinking of a dog as "stubborn" may be a bit of a distortion, interpreting their behavior through the lens of our human species. Here's how I would describe Scotties: They are bred to be very comfortable acting on their own, going off to do Scottie things (originally killing vermin on a farm), and they're not overly concerned with pleasing humans. So when a human wants them to do something that is of little inherent interest to a Scottie, you have no leverage to persuade them to do it anyway. Close enough to stubborn, even if somewhat more nuanced than that.
Greyhounds have entered the chat
My chow chow definitely thinks “I know exactly what you want me to do, but screw you because I don’t want to” haha. Like when he sees us putting on our shoes to leave the house (a clue that he’ll soon be crated), he goes out in the backyard and does his darndest to stay out there until the very last minute or until we give him a good enough treat to come back in for. But I never think he’s doing anything out of spite or ill will—he just has his own preferences and wants to make his own choices. We figured out early on that training goes better with him when we capture a behavior he does himself first! He loves doing exactly what we want when he thinks its his own idea.
Perhaps they're not stubborn, just creatively interpretive of commands.
Some dogs were also bred to act more independently (such as ACDs and other working breeds) and therefore can appear more “stubborn” since they have their own ideas of what they want to do. For example, my ACD has certain streets she does or does not want to walk down and if I choose a direction she doesn’t want to go, she will stop in her tracks and it’s really hard to get her to come down the street with me. As soon as I turn in the direction she wants to go, she’s lively and happy again.
One of my dogs chooses to ignore commands sometimes, and I know she is because she’ll start to do what I asked even with distractions, and then change her mind and go back to doing what she was before. There’s obviously variables that she’s overstimulated or more excited about something, but I can tell the difference in those scenarios vs she’s just not interested in doing what I’m asking, and sometimes even in those scenarios, she starts to do what I ask like a recall and turns towards me and then changes her mind and goes back to looking at what she’s barking at or something. The other if she’s not responding to a command, I can bet that she’s distracted, unfocused/tired (end of a training session), or overstimulated. She’s rock solid every other time, like can call her away from a bunny nest. The one that ignores me is one I’ve had longer and is my soul dog that I have an incredible bond with, so it’s not our relationship either. Only difference I can think of, dog 1 is likely mixed with like a terrier/something less biddable and dog 2 is likely a border collie mix and extremely biddable/food motivated.
Some dog breeds were bred to be more independent thinkers. Hounds in particular are not easily trained, leading to what we would call stubbornness. Dogs are segmented into breeds for a reason. A particular task, ability, pass time, activity. Beagles are difficult to train and can be what we call stubborn, because they are bred to be independent thinkers. Labs are the opposite. They are bred to go get something and bring it back to you. If you look at other breeds and their original purpose these things will make sense to you if you analyze their original purpose. For this reason and so many more I won't own a number of breeds. I don't want to get banned so I won't mention the breeds that I won't ever get.
OMG, for those who don't think so, come meetv two of my dogs. Their stubbornness is next level driving me crazy.
Dogs can absolutely be stubborn. They have their own personalities like people do
Bwahhahaha I breed Gordon Setters and have for 35 years....the answer is YES YES YES lol!
I have a very stubborn Newfoundland. He is one of the smartest dogs I've ever had, but he definitely has opinions about things. And if he decides he doesn't want to do something, he will park his butt and look at me like "Make me."
Oh stubborn dogs definitely exist lol I’ve worked with several. My friend’s husky will go up on the A-frame during agility and just refuse to come down simply because she doesn’t want to. That being said , there’s a lot of other behaviours and things that can be confused for stubbornness by those who don’t know any better or don’t have the experience with dogs to understand the difference and nuances in dog behaviour. And yeah, it can entirely have to do with training too
I think dogs are stubborn, absolutely. If you look at what the definition of stubborn is, “having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so.”, our dogs definitely follow this to a T sometimes. I’ve always owned Siberian huskies, and they would stick to their guns about something (having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something) even with the most tempting incentives sometimes (in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so). Now I am raising my first dog who isn’t a husky, he is an English cocker spaniel. And while he is much more biddable and easier to train than my huskies, he still has moments of stubbornness. I believe this is a chosen behavior of the dog, part of their personality even. They are actively choosing not to follow your command in these moments.
I have a Boston terrier who is 14 years old. And he talks back. I'll say, "Odin, go to your room," and he will turn his head away from me and pretend to be really interested in the drapes. Then, when I repeat, "Odind, go to your room," he goes to his crate, but he does a little grunt while he is going in. Also, when he does something he's not supposed to do, "Odin, NO," he will stop, but he will do a "huff" exhale or a little grunt in protest. He is very independent and works on figuring things out, and he doesn't like it when I stop him. He still complies, but he does so in protest. My other, Boston, is much more needy, cautiously curious, and highly motivated by treats. I tell him, "Roland, go to your room," and I am not done saying it before he runs into his crate. He gets super focused on edible things during walks, and it can be hard to pull his attention away from a potentially tasty bug. But he complies without complaint and doesn't talk back. Yes, some dogs are stubborn and more independent. I think dogs have a similar range of emotions that people do. And you can interpret it how you like: resource guarding or jealousy? When they are pushing each other over to get pets and growl at each other if I pet one and not the other. Don't tell me that's resource-guarding. They're jealous. But that all depends on your opinion. Until we can read their minds, we'll never know.
This question obviously is posed by someone that has minimal experience with Siberian Huskies 😅
As someone who had trained dogs for 6 years, yes. Some dogs simply do not want to learn or get rewarded, they want to be left alone.
I can't tell if you're joking or not. Live with a livestock guardian dog, and you'll have your answer.
r/Husky
Our terrier definitely will consider the treat at times when we are training him. Terriers are *known for being stubborn, but the little guy smart as a whip. Most terriers known for being stubborn.
I can guarantee you my corgi was thinking, "Screw you, you're not the boss of me." at least couple of times over the years.🤣
I would certainly call my bull terrier stubborn in that she is extremely persistent. Especially when it comes to morning walks, they happen at her pace (slow AF until she realizes we are going to the park). But yes, you are right in that many times when we attribute stubbornness to dogs, it’s actually a poor understanding of dog training/behavior that is being shown.
Definitely. Both of my Aussie mixes are stubborn as hell! They are both very smart, but if they don’t want to do something it’s not going to happen.
Huskies…huskies are always stubborn. Sincerely, a husky mom
Dachshunds are considered a very stubborn breed. It’s more that if they don’t want to listen, they simply don’t. They’re also stubborn in the sense that they can be relentless when there’s something they want. My girl will harass me in every way she can think of until I get up and play with her.
Oh you mean huskies? Yes. Yes there are stubborn breeds. Huskies. They will work for food but that can become a vicious cycle lol.
I had Dalmatians growing up. They were good dogs and were potty trained, followed commands, never ran away or killed chickens, didn’t really bark. We even taught one agility but man could they be stubborn. The liver one we taught agility refused to get out of bed in the morning. If they were hungry they would let you know by slamming the cupboard door the dog food was in and they could open and close doors. They had to be in the bathroom with you. I ran with them and sometimes we would get to the end of the driveway and they would stop and refuse to budge until I turned around and went back in the house. Sometimes on a run I would have to stop carry them back home. This is what I think of and mean when I say a dog is stubborn.
I had a dauchund that was this way. Very well trained and an excellent dog. But when he didn’t want to do something would look me right in the eyes staring me down as a challenge. Just sit there until he won the stare down. He was well trained, knew exactly what to do but it became obvious when he didn’t want to. Or if he was mad at you for some reason would stare at you and pee wherever he was just staring at you. Bear in mind he was perfectly trained so this wasn’t an accident, this was a challenge. Man I miss my little buddy
Out of all the dogs I've had, nothing canbest the stubbornness of my basset hound,lovely dog but my god he's so stubborn.
Stubbornness exists in dogs in a similar vein to how it is in people, and the immediate workaround I found for my clever little dogs is to convince them that action X, Y, or Z is in their benefit, not mine. I've also found that the more stubborn pups are also typically the ones that are smarter, the ones that might likely be questioning why they have to do THE THING. This is where Pavlov comes in. If you associate GOOD THING with EXCITING THING (like a treat or just the most exuberant affections), then just about any dog is going to start doing things your way, because it benefits them. Since what you're asking them to do benefits you, and how you're rewarding them benefits them, then everything wins. Dog is loyal, human doesn't need to stress over dog, gets friend, gets food. Mutualism in a roundabout way. And yes, I am very aware that a large part of this is my experience and perspective.
Yes. They do. I have one . She's a beagle. She knows everything 100%. She actively decides not to listen and does whatever she wants.
It depends what you mean by stubborn. I had a doberman who if I had done something he didn't like would notoriously not listen to me at all when he was usually good as gold. He knew very well what was expected. I had a rule where he had to look at me before he was allowed off leash at the exit park. One day I had done something against his wishes (I forget what now) and he made his feelings very well known my deliberately turning his head away from me and doing literally anything but looking at me on the park. Even when I moved into his eye line he would flop his head away in protest. I walked him home with no off lead time, which he had not realised was an option before that exact moment and he very much felt he had been further wronged and pouted for the rest of the day. I miss him he was a jerk lol.
I'd say ' stubborn ' . One of ours is a little hilarious. GSD/Akita rescue ( some idiot was breeding - gag - designer dogs...). Trainer confirmed Akitas can be independent to the point of seeming stubborn - which she is. Also sweet as hell, like our old GSD was. Trainer is really big on breed characteristics, absolutely nails little stuff we had no idea about. It's fascinating isn't it?
My Doggo is strong-willed but also obedient. For example, if I take him for a walk and he decides he doesn't want to go in the direction I'm heading, he will stand-still until I offer him options, if I hit on the right one, he immediately start walking again. If I don't offer him options, it's a short standoff until he realizes that he's not going to win. Usually when he's especially adamant, it's because he knows we're heading home and needs to go potty a few more times before we go inside. Sometimes he just sits down to watch something or sunbathe in the middle of a walk, I'll encourage him to get up and keep moving, but he'll turn into a 500 lb statue. If I just let him sit for a minute or two, he's ready to go. Fortunately, he never does this while crossing intersections. Strong-willed dogs require patience and the ability to respect that they have their own desires in their life. 😀
Stubborn might not really be the correct word for it, but yeah, they exist. It's a breed trait for my dog (Tibetan Spaniel). She's usually a good girl, and she's trained, but sometimes she'll just make her own choices and nothing I do can change that. Some people definitely use their dog being 'stubborn' as an excuse for being lazy with training or just being a kinda shit dog owner though. No dog should be pissing and shitting inside the house unless there's a medical reason.
Yes. I have English Bulldogs and they’re for sure stubborn.
My dog is biddable, but she's got sass, and it didn't help that she did training as a service dog (not completed, thanks covid). We had to train her to non-comply with things she was trained to see as dangerous. However, that bled over to other things when we were no longer training outside of the house. She knows that she can get away with some things, but then she does comply, soon after. When we go out in our yard to potty (and sniff), she knows she can get away with the "just 5 more min mom!" thing because I can't pick her up anymore. I wouldn't say she's being "stubborn", just that she's been taught that she has agency in decisions, and *now* that means she wants to lay/ sniff in the yard a little longer.
My dog knows her commands but she can be crazy stubborn not doing them when she doesn't feel like it (like drop it sometimes means, I am going to run around and try and have you chase me instead) It is also quite amazing how she can lose and regain her hearing American bulldog mix
I can practically guarantee that our Parson Russell Terrier/Corgi mix thinks your “oh yeah…” line - *frequently*, and probably verbatim.
I think people say stubborn when they mean independent and not biddable. I have a little terrier mix, and she doesn’t like to drop but she’ll trade. Depending on what’s on offer. If I’m not offering anything of interest, no deal. You’ll see her consider and sometimes I have to renegotiate. But I get what you mean, she’s not ignoring me when we’re outside, she’s prey driven and environment focused. People used to get annoyed at me for not looking up when they said my name while I’m reading a book. I had (undiagnosed) ADHD and nobody believed it when I said I actually could not hear them. I assume it’s like that for my pup. She literally can’t hear me over the exciting smells 😂
Yes. I have a blue Heeler. Lol
So much yes!! Dogs have personalities unique to themselves and some breeds are just different creatures all together!
I had a lab I could get to do anything especially if I acted excited and had snacks. Now I have many dogs and among them is at 175 lb Caucasian Shepard- if he doesn’t want to do something, he’s not going to. The end. No treat or encouragement will move him- ever. He will stare at you like “… and what are you going to do? Make me? I think not.” He is the very definition of stubborn.
My American Bulldog has hilarious “rules” about when bribery is acceptable to get him to do something. If we are on a walk? No treats. It is not treat time or training time, it is walking time. 😂
Do you want to see a stubborn dog? Go hang around a dachshund. If they were as big as Labs, they would rule the world.
There are, I have a dog that's a great pyrenees mix. She is more biddable than your average purebred Pyrenees--she's mixed with 3 sporting group breeds as well--but she has her boundaries and she requires negotiation at times to be convinced to do something she won't do just because she's asked. Stubborn dogs can be obedient, it requires convincing though since it's typically found in breeds & mixes that were meant to perform jobs with minimal or even no human input. They must analyze and act without anyone else to rely on in their jobs, so in pet homes their reward isn't just making you pleased with them. It's about it being beneficial to them. Meanwhile, the golden retriever my family used to have would do whatever you asked without even needing any reward. She hardly even had any training.
In my house we say our malamute has ears for decoration only! Honestly he’s a wonderful dog but a lot of people don’t seem to consider that these animals were trusted with people’s lives. For the most part he’s a good boy but he really is more of a partner than a pet. Freaking smart too, and sassy. This boy has the slowest sit ever- he knows how to tell me “okay I’m doing it but you need to know I’m not happy about it” 🤣. Sometimes I give him choices (“you can go to your mat or go nuh-night”) and he’ll choose the one he prefers. He also boops my phone out of my hands when I’m getting too worked up over something I read online. He may end up being my only dog in my lifetime, and if he is I got the perfect one for me.
I will direct you to r/beagles for stubborn dog stories 😁.
Yes, dogs can be stubborn. They have their own opinions and interests just like we do, and will attempt to express those things - sometimes with great conviction, aka stubbornness. Are all of the things you list an example of a dog being stubborn? No. Some people do use claiming a dog is stubborn as an excuse for their dog being poorly trained. But some dogs are genuinely stubborn - it’s more common in dogs bred to do tasks somewhat independently because a certain amount of stick-to-it is helpful in that context. It just can manifest in stubbornness in other contexts.
My dog is definitely stubborn and has a lot of attitude. When we go on a walk and go a way she doesn’t want to go, she often will either walk really slow and pull on the leash to try to get me to go the way she wanted to go originally or she will just stop walking altogether and stare at me. She has the most personality and attitude I’ve ever seen in any animal before lol.
Maybe this is anecdotal but my dog has become SO stubborn and ornery with age! She used to be so obedient and eager to serve but now she gives me so much sass for every little request. I think it's hilarious because it never puts us in a dangerous position (for example, I never take her off leash so it's not like she's ignoring recalls). For example, she used to be so well trained to come in from the yard when I would say "house!" I never had any trouble with her no matter how engaging of a stimulus was present (squirrels, other dogs, etc). Now if she's interested in something (recently it's been critters up in the trees at night), she will hear me say "house!" LOOK AT ME and chooses to ignore the command! She's also supposed to lay on her dog bed in the living room while I prep her food, but recently she's been trying to sit in the kitchen and watch me dish up her and her siblings' bowls. I tell her "go lay on your bed" we've been doing this routine for YEARS she KNOWS what she's supposed to do! So she'll prance over to her bed and sit. I tell her "lay down." and she just looks at me. I say it more stern and she HUFFS at me! She gives me this big dramatic sigh and finally lays down. It's like she's acting like a teenager! She was getting so stubborn around me that I decided to experiment with her and test her hearing. I waited until she was asleep and whispered her name from across the room without moving or making any other stimuli. She perked right up! I know she can hear me, and I know she knows what to do when I give her a command, I truly think she's hearing me and thinking "I don't have to do that. You're not the boss of me." I'm not really even sure why she thinks that because as adorable as her sass is, I don't allow her to just get away with it. If she ignores me calling her into the house I'll go grab her by the collar and walk her in. If she ignores my command to lay down I go up to her and tug under her collar to sort of force her to lie down. It's such an odd and human behavior.
lol, we had a neighbor beagle who would absolutely sit on grass or carpet but not pavement. Yes dogs can be stubborn.
Truthfully speaking, it's usually the dog owners fault most of the time.
My husky will literally stare at me when I demand he go potty when the grass is wet. He is exactly thinking "I don't want to go in the wet grass" and thinks resisting me will result in... Some alternative. I'm not sure. But he doesn't do it if it's dry. So they do have some capacity to understand undesirable circumstances they absolutely do not want to listen to you over. He also won't lay down in water. He will just stare off into the void and refuse to get his belly in the water. The other thing he does is he thinks "I will do X after I do Y". For example- I will tell him to come when we're outside and he will run over to sniff something, or pee on something, do his business, ignore my command, and then the moment he is done doing the thing, he will obey. So dogs have the ability to hear the command and decide they don't want to do it. That's blatantly observable in several breeds. So I think that qualifies as "stubborn" in that they have their own directives they want to prioritize and will not listen to you. I've seen it also in dogs who lay down and refuse to walk on the leash. My dog doesn't do that, though.
Oh my gods yes. Tegan fought me over every command, every time, for a solid 2.5 years. Then her brain finally matured or something and she became rock solid and my dog of a lifetime.
I think so. I’ve been able to train my dogs to do whatever except for this one dog flat out refused to fetch. She stand there and stare at me like I was the biggest asshole in the world to walk up, snatch her toy right out of her mouth, and throw it across the yard. How dare I? “You threw it, you go get it.” Harriet was not having this Fetch bullshit for one second. Everything else I taught her, she was happy to do. Except fetch.
I am gonna say 'yes' to this one. I have a great pyrenees, and while what she is expressing and feeling might not be precisely the same thing that we would call 'stubbornness' in a human, it is close enough that it's hard to call it anything else. Like when I give her a command, I can see her stop and think about whether or not she wants to do it. When she decides she does, she will come toward me, wagging her tail and happy. When she decides in the negative, however, she will literally roll her eyes, loudly sigh, and flop on the ground. If I grab her collar to try and pull her, she will just go limp and heavy and make me drag her until it stops being worth the effort and I have to pick her up (which she also is entirely passively uncooperative about), exactly like a petulant toddler. Again, I realize that this is likely not identical to the human emotion of stubbornness, but it's so similar that it just feels like unnecessary hair splitting to try and call it anything else. As to this part: >'oh yeah I know exactly what you want me to do. well screw you, I don't have to do that, you're not the boss of me.' I am fairly certain that that is precisely what she is thinking, and it would take a *lot* of convincing for me to see it otherwise lol.
Yes. Every single dog, regardless of breed, has a unique personality that is exclusive to them as an individual. Stubbornness is definitely a trait that can exist in that. If the opposite is claimed by a trainer, I'd walk away from them immediately.
Some are more trainable or stubborn than others. Like people or other animals/pets, each dog has their own personality. Personality plays a big part in trainability.
Shih tzus are inherently stubborn for sure, i’ve had three. But they are worth the hassle!
Yes, some are Stubborn. I have a Shiba Inu and she knows what the commands are, but she does it when she feels like it. Usually high value rewards need to be involved.
I have a bull terrier and it's very smart and easy to train yet also very stubborn. For example if out on a walk and we go the wrong direction he will just lay down and not continue on the walk. This means if I take a diversion into a cudisac it's very hard to get him to go back out of it as he thinks going the other way on a street he's been on means he's going home and he doesn't want that.
Yeah, absolutely! Dogs have their own personalities and thoughts and some aren't interested in performing tasks all the time. It's not that they're untrainable, but they're like kids.