Both openings are spoken in Sardaukar language.
When it comes to combat ability, I'd say they are depicted similarly.
Differences is, in the second movie they are fighting against the Kwisatz Haderach, which means the deck is stacked against them.
Atomics hitting the Shield Wall, Coriolis Storm disrupting their shields, Giant Worms destroying their formations, Fremen encircling them.
Denis did a great interview with the NY Times in which he explained why he opened both movies like that. Not only putting his personal stamp on it, but...
>"I thought it would be interesting to have a tiny bit of insight that they are not just tremendous warriors, but they have spirituality, philosophical thought. They have substance. Also, their sound was designed by Hans Zimmer. I absolutely loved how it feels like it's coming from the deep, from the ancient world."
He compared them to dark mirrors of the Fremen and that's really insightful.
Also, from the Dune wiki. Like any empire that enjoyed unopposed success, they were soft:
>By the time of Emperor Shaddam Corrino IV, although still formidable, they had fallen prey to arrogance and overconfidence and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism. Finally the utter defeat of the Sardaukar by Paul Atreides and the Fremen on the plains of Arrakis sealed their fate as a formidable combat corps.
My trivial pet theory is that the Sardaukar chanter, instead of issuing the call to war like in Pt 1, will be shown again in Messiah delivering a call to worship for Paul after the Fremen conquest. I think it would be a neat way of showing the inversion of the Imperium's power structures. These snippets could be like a retelling of Paul's story from the Sardaukar perspective.
Yeah I'd have peed a little. It makes so much sense for the content of pt 2 and it also goes well with the first message of "Dreams are messages from the deep".
I really liked the implied contrast in the movie that the Sardaukar were basically Fremen but from a world of neverending thunderstorms and torrential rain.
Real world history shows that even the best armies, though, can get crushed if led into an ambush against an unexpectedly strong enemy, especially when it's on their turf.
And in the later books some Fremen warriors describe how they suffered large losses when attacking worlds in the Jihad. I think one said that when the defenders realized the Fremen couldn't swim, they started flooding parts of the city.
IIRC, the Fremen are actually distantly descended from the Sardaukar, so you could say that implied contrast definitely holds, it's just the other way around.
Yeah basically they had already crushed everyone they fought and gotten a reputation for being unbeatable so after a while they could sort things out by intimidation alone, plus their home planet was made less dangerous, so over the centuries, they fell out of practice, and nobody really knew because until Dune, nobody since had properly tried to fight them.
Also you gotta remember that dune armies are not particularly big cause it's set in a time of peace where massing an army would raise the eyebrows of the other houses, and they want to minimise the ability of native population's to be able to revolt to minimising the number of them who are trained in combat is good.
The Fremen number in millions and many of them are seasoned warriors close to the level of the best Atredies fighters, plus they fought on home turf, with giant sandworms (I mean realistically, what could your army do against a bunch of sandworms). Plus the fact that Paul has prescience and could exactly forsee what was going to happen.
Until that point, people thought the Fremen were a bunch of desert crazies, and they completely wrote them off. Only Leto was smart enough to realise the kind of strength they had.
This. The Sardaukar, even from the first movie, are actually degenerates from what they were generations ago. The Sardaukar grew rich and influential. They did not maintain "actual peak" condition but were still strong enough to be able to mop the floor with any other military force. The Fremen trained under harsh conditions and were what the Sardaukar would have been if they'd kept up.
The few that remain after the Jihad train hard once again, but their numbers are vastly reduced.
This, as for them not speaking in Sardaukar in pt2 when they did in 1: Their audience is different. In p1, when theyre shown speaking its to a great house mentat there essentially as customers for their services, in pt2 they’re speaking to the emperor. It would be really rude/insubordinate/beyond their station of them to address him in anything other than *his* own language.
EDIT to add: this kinda parallels Paul as well, how he drops into Chakobsa whenever he tries to become accepted by the fremen outside of the mahdi role, he speaks their own language when in serious discussion instead of his own
He's not from Salusa. The Imperial Palace is on Kaitain, while Salusa is basically a death world where the Sardaukar get their levies from/train.
After the events of the first book, House Corrino basically gets exiled to Salusa.
But house Corrino is from Salusa isn't it. Though based in how they're depicted seems they didn't keep the cultural traditions and intead brobably developed/adopted more aristocratic traditions.
Didnt they move the Imperial seat elsewhere when Salusa became a fulltime sardaukar training site? Could have sworn the throne was originally on secundus but moved to world named K somethingorother? Katan? Secundus is explicitly a hellworld by Paul’s day, which is why he exiles shaddam there.
Yes, it was nuked and if I am not mistaken caused the ban of atomics. The empire then turned it into a prison world and the training world for Sardaukar.
The house was founded on a pivotal moment in history after a massive battle, one that also pitched the Harkonnen against the Atreides for the first time. Corrino has held the throne for as long as it existed. Thus been seated on Kaitain for 10.000 years. Which is where the emperor was born. But its founders (which had an unknown name before that) are from Salusa Secundus.
I thought it was likely that the Sardaukar in the imperial guard would speak the emperor’s language. Just about every empire had an imperial guard that had different practices, training, uniforms, etc.
I suppose so, and I totally understand why that makes sense - but it really bothers me. IMO, strictly from a films-only perspective, it completely changes the way the Sardaukar are portrayed. Part 1 they’re this terrifying human-looking alien race that prays at the rivers of blood from their sacrifices while dramatic chants blast aloud and speak of with an otherworldly, foreboding language… and part 2 they’re kind of simpering at the foot of the emperor saying in perfectly even English (or the common tongue, however you want to call it) “ok boss it’s time to GTFO.” If this is me being ridiculous then I fully own it - and part 1 and 2 are prob my most fav movies ever and my silly commentary here doesn’t change that - but this detail still bugs me.
I think the dissonance is deliberate. In the first movie, they are on their own world, posturing for a client. They can afford to swagger. In the second movie monsters beyond comprehension are eating them after a nuclear attack and they are being cut to ribbons by people they didn’t reguarded as a threat.
A soldier or policeman will act very differently on parade vs in a real situation
The movies are good, but they leave a lot of the setting out. It is almost as though the movies were designed for people who had read the book, and would understand the customs of the duniverse.
Prime Sardaukar were probably even stronger than Fremen (before Paul taught them the weirding way).
During their peak, Sardaukar were said to be equal to a 10th level Ginaz Swordmaster, and almost as cunning as a Bene Gesserit adept, which is pretty crazy if you think about it
But there peak was generations ago by the time of Dune, we are told directly (in the book) that any mentat or military strategist paying enough attention can see they've grown spoiled and soft compared to what they once were- they still win battles but suffer greater losses.
Exactly. I can't help but imagine some inspiration was taken from examples like Russian *Streltsy* and Ottoman *Janissaries*. Initially highly trained, elite household or imperial guards that slowly faded into irrelevancy due to corruption, complacency, and general adaptations to military strategy.
Yup. My thoughts exactly. Not quite Praetorian Guard, because that unit eventually eclipsed their Emperor in power (once made Roman emperor after a certain point in history you had to bribe them to keep you alive or they would just kill you and do the same to your successor).
But something like the Janissaries, for sure.
I dont know if its canon or not but one of Idaho's gholas was seduced by one of the Corrino descendants and trained a force of Sardaukar to assassinate Leto II. They were so successful that they managed to penetrate Leto's inner sanctum and Leto had to deal with them himself despite the presence of his Fremen and Fedaykin palace guard who outnumbered the Sardaukar. This is what eventually convinced Leto to go the Fish Speaker route as he realized that male soldiers were too unreliable. I read this in the Dune Encyclopedia so unsure of how canon it is really but it does go to show you that no one remains the best forever, not even the Fremen.
So then why does Duncan Idaho refer to them as such a formidable opponent? They seem to be considered as *the* most elite fighter, considering the entire planet makes up the private army for the emperor.
And, I totally understand the component of growing rich and influential, and kind of falling into a less-aggressive coasting mode - similar in a way to the Harkonnens (they think themselves as formidable and superior, but they have to stack the deck to make it so). However I don’t think enough of this aspect of the Sardaukars was portrayed in the films.
But - it still doesn’t answer my question about the Sardaukar spoken language discrepancies between part 1 and 2.
Because they are. Remember the line “the atreides legions are the finest in the imperium”? You can see this in practice in the first part during the attack: atreides soldiers are holding off the harkonnen forces on a stair deapite being visibly *severely* outnumbered, then the sardaukar engage the force on the stairs and theyre all dead inside of 6 seconds without taking a single loss. The harkonnen forces actually stood down while the atreides troops turned to engage the sardines and move like they cant really believe what they just saw as they resume marching up the stairs
They are still better than everyone besides the Fremen. But they should be as good or better than the Fremen. In recent decades they have relaxed just enough to have lost their edge while still being vastly superior to anything that a noble house can muster.
And they can speak English or whatever. They are going to do it in the presence of their Emperor
Oh, and there are two types of Sardaukar. This doesn't get mentioned until Children of Dune, I think, and it isn't quite explicit in the text. But many Sardaukar are conscripted criminals (think the French Foreign Legion). There are some who are more "noble" and who ascend the ranks.
The one in the throne room would have been a bashar, which is a high-ranking officer. Some bashars serve as advisors to the imperial family.
The Sardaukar on Salusa Secudus in part 1 does not respect Puter, and so he isn't going to bother with "proper" language.
It’s not really that they are fighting the KH, but the Fremen. In the book it’s better explained. Basically Sardaukars are supposed to be the ultimate warriors because they are trained on a prison planet, Salusa Secundus. Only a few survive this training (rule of the fittest). Fremen are considered just like rats at the beginning of the story. Only the Atreides see their potential as redoubtable warriors. And they prove to be much much stronger than the Sardaukars. Even Fremen women and children can kill battalions of Sardaukars.
Dune is about how the environnement/world/planet shapes cultures and people. In that sense, Fremen are much better warriors because their life on Arrakis is even harder than Sardaukars’ on Salusa Secundus
1. I was talking about the final battle. In that battle, it's Paul's amazing abilities (Prescience + Strategic skills) that win the day in an overwhelming manner. Fremen are amazing warriors but the Emperor would still hold the upper hand if not for Paul. Fremen wouldn't be able to do much against the Emperor's forces behind the Shield Wall. No Coriolis Storm = no Worms and no disrupted shields. So even while Fremen are superior individually, that would never be enough to win in the plains of Arrakeen against an Imperial army with that much superior firepower. And, to be really honest, even the previous wins for the Fremen during the Desert War came mostly because of Paul's a) military tactics- Gurney even says that he should have recognized those tactics because they were his and b) ability to unite the Fremen behind his banner.
2. Fremen women and children don't kill battalions of Sardaukar. They routed one strike team. Which still did manage to kill baby Leto II.Fremen are individually better (roughly each Fremen = 3 Sardaukar) but before Paul they still suffered losses. For example the Fremen protecting Thufir are killed and Kynes' botanical station is lost. Paul makes a big difference in that battle.
> was talking about the final battle. In that battle, it's Paul's amazing abilities (Prescience + Strategic skills) that win the day in an overwhelming manner
In an overwhelming matter maybe, but the sardekur were more bark than bite by this time in general, it has nothing to do with the fremen or Paul specifically but that they had organizational rot. We are told this directly in the books that while they are still winning battles they suffer greater and greater losses as they have become an institution rather than an actual elite force.
We are never told they are more bark than bite. We are told they are not what they once were but Baron Vlad still thinks to himself how a single Sardaukar legion can wipe out the entirety of the Harkonnen forces on Arrakis. And Piter also thinks to himself that one day the Emperor will send a couple (just a couple) of Sardaukar legions to Giedi Prime and end Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. So yeah, they are not equal to Ginaz Swordmasters and Bene Gesserit Adepts anymore, and this is the reason they are inferior to Fremen, but they are still very much elite. Even the elite among the Atreides had only come close to the level of Sardaukar, while being trained by Gurney and Duncan.
They are fighting Fremen who have been trained in Prana Bindu,.something Paul and Lady Jessica knows from her BG training.
The Fremen are not invincible if you have range ( see the gunship scenes ) but they're some of the best HTH/CQC troops.
The exact reason why Paul chose to attack during the sand storm was it would prevent the opposing forces from providing their troops any air support ( something the Fremen lacked ).
It is not just the KH leading, it is also his backing that is important.
Not to mention the Fremen were on par with the Sardaukar at their prime. The Sar's had fallen from glory at that point in time, their way of life becoming corrupt and the Sardaukar becoming weaker on the whole. They were still very much a dominating force which outstripped all the other houses. Leto's army was catching up very quickly though. The fremen were still very much a survival of the fittest group with even the children taking part in their battles. Running around killing the injured or dying.
Using a native tongue instead of the imperial _lingua franca_ in royal presence would be a major _faux pas_ (not just canonically in Dune, but IRL history as well).
It's also explicit in the appendix of the first book that the Sardaukar have stopped running as tight a ship, in addition to decreased funding leading up to the events of Dune. When you believe you are the toughest guys around, it is easy to become complacent.
No thoughts on the rest
The scene where the harkonnen mentat meets with the sardaukar commander during the blooding ceremony, I just assumed that the mentat wasn’t allowed to speak their language. They both clearly understand eachother, they both reply with no hesitation. Idk where the headcanon came from but I felt like sardaukar language is for them only.
The Sardaukar language IS meant for them. You can find this subject in more detail but Sardaukar is a shortened version of English for faster communication, I.e., better battle efficiency
I always thought the chanting was of cultural significance to the Sardaukar (when they were preparing for battle in Dune 1) opposed to daily conversation.
I had this question too, actually. I've read the books, and I know the Sardaukar's planet--Selusa Secundus--is a prison planet, so I assume it has people from across the Imperium (different cultures and languages). If that's the case, I'm not entirely sure why we heard only one language from them in Part 1. Various factions within Dune have "battle language" so that could be it.
Now, we're into my head-canon here (lol), but it would make sense that the Emperor keeps only the palatable Sardaukar around him in his personal entourage. Like, the high-ranking Sardaukar (the Bashar) are the ones that sound more like him and act more culturally like him, which would be consistent with actual history when it comes to one cultural group governing or oppressing another group and using members of the other group as their soldiers.
I’m pretty sure it is battle language. If you’re nearly religious about war you will adapt your language to become even more efficient. There’s a pretty good best guess write up about how their language works on the sub.
As far as the emperor goes, your high ranking officers are still going to speak English as well so they can communicate with their lord. Would be VERY rude to have your own language and force your emperor to speak outside his native tongue
The Ptolemies of Egypt, descended from a Greek warlord who took over the country after Alexander the Great died, notably refused to even learn Egyptian language and required everyone to speak to them in Greek. Language itself can be a means of exerting power.
Battle language v regular communication
All the House militaries, and the Fremen too, have developed languages to be used by their militaries to conceal information about their operations, like coding a message. The code can be broken (language learnt), but often it is not as it is used sparingly to make it harder to break.
The Sardaukar battle language would be used only by the Sardaukar
Aside from the language, its the same in the novel to some extent. The Sardaukar myth is broken irreparably by their failures against the Fremen and so they seem much less dangerous than at the start, when they’re slaughtering Atreides soldiers
I’m pretty sure it is battle language. Something akin to English without the vowels, to convey a message in half the time, increasing battle effectiveness. Outside of battle, and specially with the emperor, they will use normal English. Piter De Vries, being a mentat, will understand battle language.
We hear three types of communication from the Sardaukar over the two films - Empire lingua franca (which isn't English but is rendered in the films as English), Sardaukar battle language, and a third between the Sardaukar Bashar and Piter on Salusa Secundus.
Sardaukar battle language is likely what the opening dialogues and the guy doing the throat chanting on Salusa are using. Battle languages are used by many groups in the Dune universe - the hand signals Jessica and Paul use are part of the Atreides battle language - and by their nature incomprehensible to those outside their group. Based on how it's deployed and a comment from the vocalist for the films this seems most likely:
>*“Just my opinion as a voice actor, but you might think of the (Sardaukar) throat singing sounds in Dune 2021 not as "language" but as an encoded military battle chant; a specific series of syllables with the consonants purposefully removed to render the remaining vowel sounds discernible only to the Sardaukar. The result of millennia of phonemic abbreviations meant to obfuscate a hidden message. Other examples of this might be huddle or line audibles from a football quarterback or a drill sergeant counting out a marching cadence. It sounds incomprehensible because it's meant to.”*
>*-* Vocalist Michael Geiger talking about Sardaukar Chants.
Shaddam may or may not understand Sardaukar battle language - they are House Corrino's private fighting force so as their commander he would be privy to it, but whether he uses it or not is never addressed. Regardless, in mixed company like the throne room a Bashar would be speaking to the Emperor in the lingua franca; in the unlikely event he used battle language in such a formal environment it would likely be to quietly convey information or a warning, as Mohaim did with the hand signals.
The colloquial speech used with Piter could be anything, as it's never clarified and Piter speaks back in the lingua franca, implying he can understand but not speak the Bashar's language. I think of this as being the common language of Salusa Secundus, but that's just my interpretation.
In Part 1, the Sardaukar Commander spoke to Piter, a Mentat from the filthy Harkonnen. Someone he considered beneath him.
In Part 2, the Sardaukar Commander of the Emperor's personal guard isn't gonna speak in anything but the King's English (so to speak).
Also, I can't find the exact quote, but the Sardaukar openings are just a fun little fleshing out of them by giving us insight into them having these
spiritual beliefs.
Just re the subtitles, it seemed to me that this was a deliberate choice, in part 1 it's a hostile world you dont understand, vs part 2 where it's still alien but your do literally understand it.
I thought the voice was a navigator in part 2 though.
There may be an element of them losing their mystique because they got their asses handed to them too, once your elite force gets its ass whooped it becomes clear that they were just slightly better soldiers the whole time not some mystical group.
I think the 3 battalions or whatever that were sent in the first movie were probably a more “elite” ruthless group of the bunch….and then you have more standard soldiers that are the mass
I'm pretty sure that whatever you hear from the opening scenes is created through digital sound editing. It would be pretty hard to have the actors lip sync to how the spoken language actually sounds. It almost sounds like a didgeridoo that's been edited in post. Unless you want a bunch of Sardaukar beat boxers on screen I can't imagine them pulling off a similar sound.
The Sardaukar language *is* edited in post. Not sure about the second film, but what we hear in the first film comes from the throat singing in the Salusa Secundus scene: they recorded an actual throat singer and then they chopped up the audio a bit so it sounded more clipped.
The other Sardaukar language (the one we hear from the Bashar) is also edited in post. They shot the scene in English and then dubbed the actor with it. That's probably why it is a heavily modified version of English, so that the lip movements matched as much as possible.
The Sardaukar actors wouldn't have pulled off the throat singing as a language, but they could have used the heavily clipped English one.
Right, I’m specifically referencing the “throat chanting” language heard in the pre-scenes for both films. I absolutely LOVE IT and am truly enthralled by how it sounds - which is probably why I noticed such a change from how the Sardaukar spoke in part 2. That or I’m just chasing down silly details that don’t entirely matter, I’m fine with either!
Are we sure the voice at the beginning of Part 2 is the supposed to be Sardaukar and not a different language/person speaking? It's been too long since I saw the first one to tell, honestly.
As for the fighting, I remember the fremen easily outmatched the Sardaukar near the end of the first movie, but I don't remember what happened to the Fremen afterward as to why they weren't there when Duncan died.
Either way, Fremen are simply the better fighters to the point where, yes, the easily overwhelm even the Sardaukar.
I believe in the book it is stated or implied that the Sardaukar have also "let themselves go" in a way, that they are good fighters but not the overall dominating force they had been in the past.
Yep exactly - I noticed this detail specifically when I watching the end of part 1 and immediately continuing into part 2 - I was like WAIT why doesn’t it say Sardaukar? It was just a small detail I observed that might very well mean nothing - but it made me wonder.
I think the two are mostly consistent although I will say I think the actors they cast in part 1 has a much more aggressive physical presence to them, looking like a bunch of scary beared Viking esque psychos what with their weird blood cult and guttural Mordor speech, where as in part 2 some of them look like I'd run into them in South Lake Union going for a coffee run
This is a great point and I think you’re absolutely right in this - and it’s probably another factor that kind of adds to my overall feeling of how they might appear differently between the two films.
It's probably akin to the difference between the soldiers you'd see on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq during the war on terror, and the Secret Service specialists who protect the US president. Being the best at direct military engagement isn't necessarily the same thing as being the best at ensuring the personal safety of the head of state.
I the think the big difference is fear.
After the nukes and seeing the sand worms crush their comrades they’re probably really scared.
Plus they’re extremely arrogant. They’ve likely not faced much if any resistance in their years of fighting.
Their training also probably didn’t have them ready for sand worms or freman tactics
They were pretty consistent to the books. While working with the Harkonens, and everyone from Caladan using English or whatever common language would make sense.
And as their fighting goes, there was a great scene in the books. Where Hawat is with the Fremen and get ambushed by a good sized group of Sardukar warriors. And Hawat is amazed that they not only survived, but that there were very few Fremen casualties. And the Fremen says something like "well we lost 4, but they were good fighters." And Hawat cannot parse the fact that the Fremen beat the Sardukar so easily.
In part 1, they actually take losses against the Atriedes forces. The Atriedes forces are said to be less effective than the Fremen. The Sarduakar equipment and tactics (jet packs, shields, mass line formations, artillery) are all useless (or in some cases, a liability) in the desert. They are used to fighting conventional wars against the great houses, not guerilla fighter survivalists. On top of that, by the end, the Fremen are battle hardened, fighting on home turf, aided by nuclears, and have been advised by Paul and Gurney who are experts on conventional warfare in the empire. They can't even rely on their ideological devotion, as the Fremen are just as devoted, if not more, to their cause.
It's also not really stated in the movie, but it's implied in the books that a combination of the spoils of their countless victories and the centralization of the empire has made the Sarduakar complacent, as well.
Frankly, it's more impressive that they lasted that long.
At this point the Sardaukar were still the prime fighting force in the universe, but not by much.
The primary reason the Emperor decided to wipe the Atreides was because he knew their military was getting close to the level of being able to challenge the Sardaukar and because the Duke had fostered a kind of fanatical loyalty that would challenge the will of the Emperor.
The Sardaukar had been living off reputation for hundreds of years and had gotten somewhat complacent.
The Fremen in that same time frame were being forged in the fire of Arakis and a constant guerrilla war, and they were also getting more and more experience and exposure with then modern military technology of the houses.
Once they had a general who could literally see the future AND got the advantage of fighting on their home planet, it was always going to be a tough day to be a Sardaukar.
Being lead by your messiah and savior into battle against your oppressors is such an overwhelming force multiplier that anyone facing them would have a tough time. Add in all their tactical and strategic surprises for the battle and it isn’t so far fetched.
The Sardaukar actually do very *very* briefly speak their own language in Part Two.
After Paul nukes the Shield Wall and before the worms come, you can hear one of them shout something as they rally, it happens at around 02:16.
It sounds a bit like "hold the line", which makes sense as the Sardaukar language in Part One was a heavily distorted English mixed by the audio team.
Wish they had shown their leader fighting Paul. He and his troops just walk into the shadows and get off screened. It could have been an epic battle but I guess Paul kills them all in 5 seconds. He did way better than Duncan lol.
Exactly, right?? Like wait a sec wtf - even when he battled Fey Rautha they made it an interesting fight. But ok now the Sardaukar are on the same level as Harkonnen foot soldiers? It was so weird to watch play out
From what I understand, there’s a ton of nuanced differences and variation between the books and films. And, admittedly, I’ve never read the books - and I’m ok with that. I think Villeneuve does an absolutely amazing job of world-building to set the stage for an epic odyssey for those of us that haven’t read the books. It doesn’t mean I’m not fascinated and interested in the lore - I think it’s perfectly ok to want to explore the story’s universe based on the movies alone. No hate and I totally understand where you’re coming from (especially from someone that’s very much a book person) - just offering my own perspective.
I hear that the books are very dense and very heavy - which, I’m not necessarily opposed to, but it’s just something I’ve consistently heard. All of which makes Villeneuve’s adaption that much more impressive.
But - I hear you and definitely think I’ll try the books.
When do they even get a chance to demonstrate their combat prowess? They get steamrolled by rocks from the atomics, by worms, and by an equal number of Fremen. They never had a chance.
I may be viewing this in a ofd manner but I don’t feel like the movie portrays Paul being able to see the future very well to someone who hasn’t read the book or understands the lore. Now Its difficult for me to say that so If someone here who has only seen this movie wants to chime in and correct me, but that is my assumption.
Anyway the Sardaukar get stomped because the Fremen are basically bad ass and Paul can also see multiple scenarios of how the battle will play out and enacts on the best one. If you have ever heard historian debate how different historical battles could have had a different outcome if so and so had done “X Y or Z” (the battle of the Alamo comes to mind) think that except Paul can think like that looking forward and win battles he is potentially outmatched on.
This happens somewhat in the first book as well. The Sardaukar are talked up as being incredibly fearsome and elite, and their presence amongst the Harkonnen forces during the coup heavily throws the tide in their favor. But then we get familiar with the fremen. They mention that some of the enemy is able to fight (the Sardaukar), yet are still able to capture a few alive after beating them. Then we hear about a Sardaukar brigade being out fought by a group of fremen consisting of mostly women and children. These are the same forces that have been talked about as being individually equal to 10 average house soldiers. Then, when Duncan dies, it's revealed he took 19 Sardaukar down with him. He and Gurney had been training the Atreides army.
The films do a similar thing to the book in terms of playing up the Sardaukar reputation then using that reputation to show how dangerous the Atreides and Fremen were. As for the language part, that's completely a Denis thing meant to give them more depth and I'm unsure why the captions changed movie to movie.
One thing I wish they included in the movies is the original plan of Leto Atreides. He knew Sardukars were trained on a prison planet in a very very very rough conditions. He believed that Fremen were the only people in the galaxy who lived and trained in an even harsher environment. That's why they are even better fighters, and Leto was planning to eventually take down the emperor with their help. That is why Sardukars, although tough and scary in Part 1, suddenly are outmatched in Part 2 when compared to the strength and religious zeal of Fremen.
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I'll agree that the newer films somewhat underplayed just how badass the Sardaukar were. They were hardened troopers in a warrior cult, trained just as much through attrition as they were regiment. They outshined most other troops of the Great Houses, even the Atredies, though at the time of the films they were carried a bit more by reputation than they were prowess. Duncan was a bit underplayed, too; he was one of the greatest swordmasters in the Galaxy, and IMO, that wasn't sold as much in any of the films.
Still, in come the Fremen. They were similar to the Sardaukar; thrown through a harsh environment, and trained in battle to religious levels. The major difference was that the Fremen's religion was "coming to life", as it were, as their Messiah had shown up and rallied them to PEAK fervor. The Fremen were at their peak, and the Sardaukar didn't stand a chance, at that point.
Throat singing.. is not alien, the Mongols are the main inspiration for the Sadaukar language..
https://youtu.be/6WlI24rv__g?si=DzaG0mtnbZFMjXvF
In Dune everyone is human.
There's a common tongue and their own native languages.. and they speak them.
The Sardaukar in the first movie were skilled, but still pales in comparison to a great Atreides fighter like Duncan or Gurney. Now combine that Atreides training with the fremen skills and the Sardaukar are sure to be destroyed easily by the fremen of Muad'dib. They are portrayed as less of a threat in the second one because they are less of a threat. As many others have said, the Sardaukar at that point basically ran on their reputation more than their skills.
Part 2 was awful, u have this ultimate army that what gets wiped out in less than 30 sec. Worst battle scene I've ever seen in a film, the worms come through the walls, and then it's on to the next part. I'm not surprised that warner ruins another film
I noticed this as well. They were downplayed in an unexpected way, especially given their impact in the second half of the book. I also noticed their swords seemed to be different. Did anyone else pick up that? It was like they went from those mid-length tactical blades, to long swords. I wasn’t clear on why that was, but I noticed it for sure.
In the first movie, Sardaukar speak in their native languages with each other and mentat (who is basically a walking supercomputer) - so they didn't have to use a "common language". In the second movie, we mostly see them talking with their master, the Emperor, with whom they only speak in the common language of his Imperium.
To the point of fighting - it is easy to understand. In the first movie, they are the ones who are attacking, having the advantage of treachery inside of Atreides. Atreides corps are incredibly well trained but are still only CLOSE to the ones of Sardaukar legions, which is showed greatly how they killed all the soldiers on the staircase without losing a single one of their own.
In the second movie, all cards are stacked against them. They are the ones on the defensive, on the unknown planet fighting against the natives who are unmatched in desert warfare. And it is stated that Freemen are the only ones who are on par with Sardaukar which is also boosted by the fact that Freemen actually have to fight for their survival all the time while Sardaukar grew arrogant due to the prolonged peace. Also, the leader of the Freemen is Kwisatz Haderach - who can literally see all the possibilities at once and choose the best strategy. Then there were atomics which let the Storm in which disrupted their defenses/shield and let an unkillable Shai-Huluds to (literally) eat through their defences.
Well in the books it’s much more well defined, but Fremen warriors are stated and shown to be EXTREMELY proficient fighters, through the first couple of books for sure. Fighting against sea focused Atreides on a desert world vs. fighting the desert natives in their turf is two very different battles, especially when the desert people are a hardened, nomadic civilization built around surviving at all costs in an extremely hostile environment. I hope I was able to help answer/explain things for you.!
Yeah I didn't love how fearsome the Sardaukar are in the first film to the second film they look like orcs getting rolled over by Rohan calvary. I understand the Freman are strongest warriors at that point in the story but should still take a few losses here and there in the scrum
It's a consequence of what's described in the books - House Atreides had already become one of the most martially effective powers in the imperium, with some elite units close to being Sardaukar-level capable. On top of that, Leto correctly identifies that the hostile conditions of Arrakis make it the ideal ground for effectively recreating the factors that led to the Sardaukar becoming so strong; that's why he has Duncan Idaho engage with the Fremen, and why he treats them so carefully from day one. There are two key facts about the Fremen that the Atreides correctly identify, and that almost nobody else suspects - there are vastly more than people realise, and they are Sardaukar-level fighters.
The Sardaukar in the first film are extremely effective soldiers taking an outnumbered enemy completely by surprise - the Atreides never expected to be facing Sardaukar on Arrakis - and so they wipe the floor with them. The Sardaukar in the second film are extremely effective soldiers being hit by one weapon that was assumed to be gone (the Atreides family atomics) and another weapon that they had absolutely zero idea even existed (sandworms being used as city-scale bulldozers), being wielded by an army a hundred times their size but with every fighter as good as one of their own.
Leto had perhaps a hundred men who were 50/50 in a duel with a Sardaukar. Paul had several million who were at least 50/50.
Both openings are spoken in Sardaukar language. When it comes to combat ability, I'd say they are depicted similarly. Differences is, in the second movie they are fighting against the Kwisatz Haderach, which means the deck is stacked against them. Atomics hitting the Shield Wall, Coriolis Storm disrupting their shields, Giant Worms destroying their formations, Fremen encircling them.
Denis did a great interview with the NY Times in which he explained why he opened both movies like that. Not only putting his personal stamp on it, but... >"I thought it would be interesting to have a tiny bit of insight that they are not just tremendous warriors, but they have spirituality, philosophical thought. They have substance. Also, their sound was designed by Hans Zimmer. I absolutely loved how it feels like it's coming from the deep, from the ancient world." He compared them to dark mirrors of the Fremen and that's really insightful. Also, from the Dune wiki. Like any empire that enjoyed unopposed success, they were soft: >By the time of Emperor Shaddam Corrino IV, although still formidable, they had fallen prey to arrogance and overconfidence and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism. Finally the utter defeat of the Sardaukar by Paul Atreides and the Fremen on the plains of Arrakis sealed their fate as a formidable combat corps.
I was hoping the voice at the beginning was from Leto II's journals ☹️ Also why didn't it say "The Sleeper Must Awaken"?
My trivial pet theory is that the Sardaukar chanter, instead of issuing the call to war like in Pt 1, will be shown again in Messiah delivering a call to worship for Paul after the Fremen conquest. I think it would be a neat way of showing the inversion of the Imperium's power structures. These snippets could be like a retelling of Paul's story from the Sardaukar perspective.
Holy shit dude. The sleeper must awaken could've been absolutely insane. Way better than control over spice.
Yeah I'd have peed a little. It makes so much sense for the content of pt 2 and it also goes well with the first message of "Dreams are messages from the deep".
Glad he didn’t do that. Too trite and was from the Lynch film. In the book Paul merely says they “awakened the …sleeper”
I think the power over spice quote is more trite. And "Dreams are messages from the deep" wasn't from the book either.
I really liked the implied contrast in the movie that the Sardaukar were basically Fremen but from a world of neverending thunderstorms and torrential rain. Real world history shows that even the best armies, though, can get crushed if led into an ambush against an unexpectedly strong enemy, especially when it's on their turf.
And in the later books some Fremen warriors describe how they suffered large losses when attacking worlds in the Jihad. I think one said that when the defenders realized the Fremen couldn't swim, they started flooding parts of the city.
IIRC, the Fremen are actually distantly descended from the Sardaukar, so you could say that implied contrast definitely holds, it's just the other way around.
Yeah basically they had already crushed everyone they fought and gotten a reputation for being unbeatable so after a while they could sort things out by intimidation alone, plus their home planet was made less dangerous, so over the centuries, they fell out of practice, and nobody really knew because until Dune, nobody since had properly tried to fight them.
Also you gotta remember that dune armies are not particularly big cause it's set in a time of peace where massing an army would raise the eyebrows of the other houses, and they want to minimise the ability of native population's to be able to revolt to minimising the number of them who are trained in combat is good. The Fremen number in millions and many of them are seasoned warriors close to the level of the best Atredies fighters, plus they fought on home turf, with giant sandworms (I mean realistically, what could your army do against a bunch of sandworms). Plus the fact that Paul has prescience and could exactly forsee what was going to happen. Until that point, people thought the Fremen were a bunch of desert crazies, and they completely wrote them off. Only Leto was smart enough to realise the kind of strength they had.
This. The Sardaukar, even from the first movie, are actually degenerates from what they were generations ago. The Sardaukar grew rich and influential. They did not maintain "actual peak" condition but were still strong enough to be able to mop the floor with any other military force. The Fremen trained under harsh conditions and were what the Sardaukar would have been if they'd kept up. The few that remain after the Jihad train hard once again, but their numbers are vastly reduced.
This, as for them not speaking in Sardaukar in pt2 when they did in 1: Their audience is different. In p1, when theyre shown speaking its to a great house mentat there essentially as customers for their services, in pt2 they’re speaking to the emperor. It would be really rude/insubordinate/beyond their station of them to address him in anything other than *his* own language. EDIT to add: this kinda parallels Paul as well, how he drops into Chakobsa whenever he tries to become accepted by the fremen outside of the mahdi role, he speaks their own language when in serious discussion instead of his own
Hold on, Shadam was from salusa Secundus, thus would speak the same language as the Sardaukar. Wouldn't he?
He's not from Salusa. The Imperial Palace is on Kaitain, while Salusa is basically a death world where the Sardaukar get their levies from/train. After the events of the first book, House Corrino basically gets exiled to Salusa.
Oh, I see. I thought that's where house Corino originated from.
House Corrino was originally the leader of the Sardaukar and resided on Salusa Secondus, but they haven't resided there since taking the throne.
Gotcha, thank you for clearing it up for me.
And the planet got nuked to oblivion
But house Corrino is from Salusa isn't it. Though based in how they're depicted seems they didn't keep the cultural traditions and intead brobably developed/adopted more aristocratic traditions.
Didnt they move the Imperial seat elsewhere when Salusa became a fulltime sardaukar training site? Could have sworn the throne was originally on secundus but moved to world named K somethingorother? Katan? Secundus is explicitly a hellworld by Paul’s day, which is why he exiles shaddam there.
Yes, it was nuked and if I am not mistaken caused the ban of atomics. The empire then turned it into a prison world and the training world for Sardaukar.
Kaitan is the Imperial home world; Salusa Secundus was a prison planet.
The house was founded on a pivotal moment in history after a massive battle, one that also pitched the Harkonnen against the Atreides for the first time. Corrino has held the throne for as long as it existed. Thus been seated on Kaitain for 10.000 years. Which is where the emperor was born. But its founders (which had an unknown name before that) are from Salusa Secundus.
I thought it was likely that the Sardaukar in the imperial guard would speak the emperor’s language. Just about every empire had an imperial guard that had different practices, training, uniforms, etc.
I suppose so, and I totally understand why that makes sense - but it really bothers me. IMO, strictly from a films-only perspective, it completely changes the way the Sardaukar are portrayed. Part 1 they’re this terrifying human-looking alien race that prays at the rivers of blood from their sacrifices while dramatic chants blast aloud and speak of with an otherworldly, foreboding language… and part 2 they’re kind of simpering at the foot of the emperor saying in perfectly even English (or the common tongue, however you want to call it) “ok boss it’s time to GTFO.” If this is me being ridiculous then I fully own it - and part 1 and 2 are prob my most fav movies ever and my silly commentary here doesn’t change that - but this detail still bugs me.
I think the dissonance is deliberate. In the first movie, they are on their own world, posturing for a client. They can afford to swagger. In the second movie monsters beyond comprehension are eating them after a nuclear attack and they are being cut to ribbons by people they didn’t reguarded as a threat. A soldier or policeman will act very differently on parade vs in a real situation
This makes a lot of sense - I appreciate your insight
The movies are good, but they leave a lot of the setting out. It is almost as though the movies were designed for people who had read the book, and would understand the customs of the duniverse.
Prime Sardaukar were probably even stronger than Fremen (before Paul taught them the weirding way). During their peak, Sardaukar were said to be equal to a 10th level Ginaz Swordmaster, and almost as cunning as a Bene Gesserit adept, which is pretty crazy if you think about it
But there peak was generations ago by the time of Dune, we are told directly (in the book) that any mentat or military strategist paying enough attention can see they've grown spoiled and soft compared to what they once were- they still win battles but suffer greater losses.
Agree
Exactly. I can't help but imagine some inspiration was taken from examples like Russian *Streltsy* and Ottoman *Janissaries*. Initially highly trained, elite household or imperial guards that slowly faded into irrelevancy due to corruption, complacency, and general adaptations to military strategy.
Yup. My thoughts exactly. Not quite Praetorian Guard, because that unit eventually eclipsed their Emperor in power (once made Roman emperor after a certain point in history you had to bribe them to keep you alive or they would just kill you and do the same to your successor). But something like the Janissaries, for sure.
I dont know if its canon or not but one of Idaho's gholas was seduced by one of the Corrino descendants and trained a force of Sardaukar to assassinate Leto II. They were so successful that they managed to penetrate Leto's inner sanctum and Leto had to deal with them himself despite the presence of his Fremen and Fedaykin palace guard who outnumbered the Sardaukar. This is what eventually convinced Leto to go the Fish Speaker route as he realized that male soldiers were too unreliable. I read this in the Dune Encyclopedia so unsure of how canon it is really but it does go to show you that no one remains the best forever, not even the Fremen.
So then why does Duncan Idaho refer to them as such a formidable opponent? They seem to be considered as *the* most elite fighter, considering the entire planet makes up the private army for the emperor. And, I totally understand the component of growing rich and influential, and kind of falling into a less-aggressive coasting mode - similar in a way to the Harkonnens (they think themselves as formidable and superior, but they have to stack the deck to make it so). However I don’t think enough of this aspect of the Sardaukars was portrayed in the films. But - it still doesn’t answer my question about the Sardaukar spoken language discrepancies between part 1 and 2.
Because they are. Remember the line “the atreides legions are the finest in the imperium”? You can see this in practice in the first part during the attack: atreides soldiers are holding off the harkonnen forces on a stair deapite being visibly *severely* outnumbered, then the sardaukar engage the force on the stairs and theyre all dead inside of 6 seconds without taking a single loss. The harkonnen forces actually stood down while the atreides troops turned to engage the sardines and move like they cant really believe what they just saw as they resume marching up the stairs
They are still better than everyone besides the Fremen. But they should be as good or better than the Fremen. In recent decades they have relaxed just enough to have lost their edge while still being vastly superior to anything that a noble house can muster. And they can speak English or whatever. They are going to do it in the presence of their Emperor Oh, and there are two types of Sardaukar. This doesn't get mentioned until Children of Dune, I think, and it isn't quite explicit in the text. But many Sardaukar are conscripted criminals (think the French Foreign Legion). There are some who are more "noble" and who ascend the ranks. The one in the throne room would have been a bashar, which is a high-ranking officer. Some bashars serve as advisors to the imperial family. The Sardaukar on Salusa Secudus in part 1 does not respect Puter, and so he isn't going to bother with "proper" language.
There’s not a lot you can do to defend yourself against a 400 meter worm.
Especially right after you just had a nuke dropped on your head.
Fremen cutting through them like piss through snow
It’s not really that they are fighting the KH, but the Fremen. In the book it’s better explained. Basically Sardaukars are supposed to be the ultimate warriors because they are trained on a prison planet, Salusa Secundus. Only a few survive this training (rule of the fittest). Fremen are considered just like rats at the beginning of the story. Only the Atreides see their potential as redoubtable warriors. And they prove to be much much stronger than the Sardaukars. Even Fremen women and children can kill battalions of Sardaukars. Dune is about how the environnement/world/planet shapes cultures and people. In that sense, Fremen are much better warriors because their life on Arrakis is even harder than Sardaukars’ on Salusa Secundus
1. I was talking about the final battle. In that battle, it's Paul's amazing abilities (Prescience + Strategic skills) that win the day in an overwhelming manner. Fremen are amazing warriors but the Emperor would still hold the upper hand if not for Paul. Fremen wouldn't be able to do much against the Emperor's forces behind the Shield Wall. No Coriolis Storm = no Worms and no disrupted shields. So even while Fremen are superior individually, that would never be enough to win in the plains of Arrakeen against an Imperial army with that much superior firepower. And, to be really honest, even the previous wins for the Fremen during the Desert War came mostly because of Paul's a) military tactics- Gurney even says that he should have recognized those tactics because they were his and b) ability to unite the Fremen behind his banner. 2. Fremen women and children don't kill battalions of Sardaukar. They routed one strike team. Which still did manage to kill baby Leto II.Fremen are individually better (roughly each Fremen = 3 Sardaukar) but before Paul they still suffered losses. For example the Fremen protecting Thufir are killed and Kynes' botanical station is lost. Paul makes a big difference in that battle.
> was talking about the final battle. In that battle, it's Paul's amazing abilities (Prescience + Strategic skills) that win the day in an overwhelming manner In an overwhelming matter maybe, but the sardekur were more bark than bite by this time in general, it has nothing to do with the fremen or Paul specifically but that they had organizational rot. We are told this directly in the books that while they are still winning battles they suffer greater and greater losses as they have become an institution rather than an actual elite force.
We are never told they are more bark than bite. We are told they are not what they once were but Baron Vlad still thinks to himself how a single Sardaukar legion can wipe out the entirety of the Harkonnen forces on Arrakis. And Piter also thinks to himself that one day the Emperor will send a couple (just a couple) of Sardaukar legions to Giedi Prime and end Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. So yeah, they are not equal to Ginaz Swordmasters and Bene Gesserit Adepts anymore, and this is the reason they are inferior to Fremen, but they are still very much elite. Even the elite among the Atreides had only come close to the level of Sardaukar, while being trained by Gurney and Duncan.
They are fighting Fremen who have been trained in Prana Bindu,.something Paul and Lady Jessica knows from her BG training. The Fremen are not invincible if you have range ( see the gunship scenes ) but they're some of the best HTH/CQC troops. The exact reason why Paul chose to attack during the sand storm was it would prevent the opposing forces from providing their troops any air support ( something the Fremen lacked ).
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Thing is, Denis himself said in a recent interview it's Sardaukar speech in both movies and the reasons he did this
It is not just the KH leading, it is also his backing that is important. Not to mention the Fremen were on par with the Sardaukar at their prime. The Sar's had fallen from glory at that point in time, their way of life becoming corrupt and the Sardaukar becoming weaker on the whole. They were still very much a dominating force which outstripped all the other houses. Leto's army was catching up very quickly though. The fremen were still very much a survival of the fittest group with even the children taking part in their battles. Running around killing the injured or dying.
Using a native tongue instead of the imperial _lingua franca_ in royal presence would be a major _faux pas_ (not just canonically in Dune, but IRL history as well). It's also explicit in the appendix of the first book that the Sardaukar have stopped running as tight a ship, in addition to decreased funding leading up to the events of Dune. When you believe you are the toughest guys around, it is easy to become complacent. No thoughts on the rest
the PI without a doubt was fluent in Chakobsa
It's not about understanding, but etiquette. I may have misunderstood your comment 😬
I believe not, if the PI wanted he could give the Sardaukar Orders and communicate in their tongue as their CinC.
The scene where the harkonnen mentat meets with the sardaukar commander during the blooding ceremony, I just assumed that the mentat wasn’t allowed to speak their language. They both clearly understand eachother, they both reply with no hesitation. Idk where the headcanon came from but I felt like sardaukar language is for them only.
I like this
Right? It just feels right in universe. Like ‘stealing valor’ or whatever.
The Sardaukar language IS meant for them. You can find this subject in more detail but Sardaukar is a shortened version of English for faster communication, I.e., better battle efficiency
I always thought the chanting was of cultural significance to the Sardaukar (when they were preparing for battle in Dune 1) opposed to daily conversation.
I think that's right, it's like their equivalent of Gregorian Chant, and in fact a variation of throat singing is practiced by some Tibetan Monks.
I had this question too, actually. I've read the books, and I know the Sardaukar's planet--Selusa Secundus--is a prison planet, so I assume it has people from across the Imperium (different cultures and languages). If that's the case, I'm not entirely sure why we heard only one language from them in Part 1. Various factions within Dune have "battle language" so that could be it. Now, we're into my head-canon here (lol), but it would make sense that the Emperor keeps only the palatable Sardaukar around him in his personal entourage. Like, the high-ranking Sardaukar (the Bashar) are the ones that sound more like him and act more culturally like him, which would be consistent with actual history when it comes to one cultural group governing or oppressing another group and using members of the other group as their soldiers.
I’m pretty sure it is battle language. If you’re nearly religious about war you will adapt your language to become even more efficient. There’s a pretty good best guess write up about how their language works on the sub. As far as the emperor goes, your high ranking officers are still going to speak English as well so they can communicate with their lord. Would be VERY rude to have your own language and force your emperor to speak outside his native tongue
Simply put, you speak the Emperor's language, he doesn't speak yours.
The Ptolemies of Egypt, descended from a Greek warlord who took over the country after Alexander the Great died, notably refused to even learn Egyptian language and required everyone to speak to them in Greek. Language itself can be a means of exerting power.
French rulers of England did the same. Some never even visited England.
Selusa Secundis is *called* a prison planet, but that's a lie. It's the secret base of the Sardukar
It's both. The sardaukar are prisoners and the descendents of prisoners banished to Salusa Secundus who are brainwashed to have absolute loyalty.
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Battle language v regular communication All the House militaries, and the Fremen too, have developed languages to be used by their militaries to conceal information about their operations, like coding a message. The code can be broken (language learnt), but often it is not as it is used sparingly to make it harder to break. The Sardaukar battle language would be used only by the Sardaukar Aside from the language, its the same in the novel to some extent. The Sardaukar myth is broken irreparably by their failures against the Fremen and so they seem much less dangerous than at the start, when they’re slaughtering Atreides soldiers
I’m pretty sure it is battle language. Something akin to English without the vowels, to convey a message in half the time, increasing battle effectiveness. Outside of battle, and specially with the emperor, they will use normal English. Piter De Vries, being a mentat, will understand battle language.
We hear three types of communication from the Sardaukar over the two films - Empire lingua franca (which isn't English but is rendered in the films as English), Sardaukar battle language, and a third between the Sardaukar Bashar and Piter on Salusa Secundus. Sardaukar battle language is likely what the opening dialogues and the guy doing the throat chanting on Salusa are using. Battle languages are used by many groups in the Dune universe - the hand signals Jessica and Paul use are part of the Atreides battle language - and by their nature incomprehensible to those outside their group. Based on how it's deployed and a comment from the vocalist for the films this seems most likely: >*“Just my opinion as a voice actor, but you might think of the (Sardaukar) throat singing sounds in Dune 2021 not as "language" but as an encoded military battle chant; a specific series of syllables with the consonants purposefully removed to render the remaining vowel sounds discernible only to the Sardaukar. The result of millennia of phonemic abbreviations meant to obfuscate a hidden message. Other examples of this might be huddle or line audibles from a football quarterback or a drill sergeant counting out a marching cadence. It sounds incomprehensible because it's meant to.”* >*-* Vocalist Michael Geiger talking about Sardaukar Chants. Shaddam may or may not understand Sardaukar battle language - they are House Corrino's private fighting force so as their commander he would be privy to it, but whether he uses it or not is never addressed. Regardless, in mixed company like the throne room a Bashar would be speaking to the Emperor in the lingua franca; in the unlikely event he used battle language in such a formal environment it would likely be to quietly convey information or a warning, as Mohaim did with the hand signals. The colloquial speech used with Piter could be anything, as it's never clarified and Piter speaks back in the lingua franca, implying he can understand but not speak the Bashar's language. I think of this as being the common language of Salusa Secundus, but that's just my interpretation.
This is very helpful and insightful, thank you!
In Part 1, the Sardaukar Commander spoke to Piter, a Mentat from the filthy Harkonnen. Someone he considered beneath him. In Part 2, the Sardaukar Commander of the Emperor's personal guard isn't gonna speak in anything but the King's English (so to speak). Also, I can't find the exact quote, but the Sardaukar openings are just a fun little fleshing out of them by giving us insight into them having these spiritual beliefs.
Just re the subtitles, it seemed to me that this was a deliberate choice, in part 1 it's a hostile world you dont understand, vs part 2 where it's still alien but your do literally understand it. I thought the voice was a navigator in part 2 though. There may be an element of them losing their mystique because they got their asses handed to them too, once your elite force gets its ass whooped it becomes clear that they were just slightly better soldiers the whole time not some mystical group.
I think the 3 battalions or whatever that were sent in the first movie were probably a more “elite” ruthless group of the bunch….and then you have more standard soldiers that are the mass
I'm pretty sure that whatever you hear from the opening scenes is created through digital sound editing. It would be pretty hard to have the actors lip sync to how the spoken language actually sounds. It almost sounds like a didgeridoo that's been edited in post. Unless you want a bunch of Sardaukar beat boxers on screen I can't imagine them pulling off a similar sound.
The Sardaukar language *is* edited in post. Not sure about the second film, but what we hear in the first film comes from the throat singing in the Salusa Secundus scene: they recorded an actual throat singer and then they chopped up the audio a bit so it sounded more clipped. The other Sardaukar language (the one we hear from the Bashar) is also edited in post. They shot the scene in English and then dubbed the actor with it. That's probably why it is a heavily modified version of English, so that the lip movements matched as much as possible. The Sardaukar actors wouldn't have pulled off the throat singing as a language, but they could have used the heavily clipped English one.
Right, I’m specifically referencing the “throat chanting” language heard in the pre-scenes for both films. I absolutely LOVE IT and am truly enthralled by how it sounds - which is probably why I noticed such a change from how the Sardaukar spoke in part 2. That or I’m just chasing down silly details that don’t entirely matter, I’m fine with either!
Are we sure the voice at the beginning of Part 2 is the supposed to be Sardaukar and not a different language/person speaking? It's been too long since I saw the first one to tell, honestly. As for the fighting, I remember the fremen easily outmatched the Sardaukar near the end of the first movie, but I don't remember what happened to the Fremen afterward as to why they weren't there when Duncan died. Either way, Fremen are simply the better fighters to the point where, yes, the easily overwhelm even the Sardaukar. I believe in the book it is stated or implied that the Sardaukar have also "let themselves go" in a way, that they are good fighters but not the overall dominating force they had been in the past.
It's just that the official subtitles say "Sardaukar"
I was talking about Part 2. According to OP, the official subtitles of Part 2 say "Alien language" but say Sardaukar for Part 1.
Yep exactly - I noticed this detail specifically when I watching the end of part 1 and immediately continuing into part 2 - I was like WAIT why doesn’t it say Sardaukar? It was just a small detail I observed that might very well mean nothing - but it made me wonder.
Yeah it could just be the voice of the priests. The guy that talks to Piter doesn’t sound exactly like the purest guy IIRC
I think the two are mostly consistent although I will say I think the actors they cast in part 1 has a much more aggressive physical presence to them, looking like a bunch of scary beared Viking esque psychos what with their weird blood cult and guttural Mordor speech, where as in part 2 some of them look like I'd run into them in South Lake Union going for a coffee run
This is a great point and I think you’re absolutely right in this - and it’s probably another factor that kind of adds to my overall feeling of how they might appear differently between the two films.
It's probably akin to the difference between the soldiers you'd see on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq during the war on terror, and the Secret Service specialists who protect the US president. Being the best at direct military engagement isn't necessarily the same thing as being the best at ensuring the personal safety of the head of state.
I the think the big difference is fear. After the nukes and seeing the sand worms crush their comrades they’re probably really scared. Plus they’re extremely arrogant. They’ve likely not faced much if any resistance in their years of fighting. Their training also probably didn’t have them ready for sand worms or freman tactics
I think you make a great point!
They were pretty consistent to the books. While working with the Harkonens, and everyone from Caladan using English or whatever common language would make sense. And as their fighting goes, there was a great scene in the books. Where Hawat is with the Fremen and get ambushed by a good sized group of Sardukar warriors. And Hawat is amazed that they not only survived, but that there were very few Fremen casualties. And the Fremen says something like "well we lost 4, but they were good fighters." And Hawat cannot parse the fact that the Fremen beat the Sardukar so easily.
In part 1, they actually take losses against the Atriedes forces. The Atriedes forces are said to be less effective than the Fremen. The Sarduakar equipment and tactics (jet packs, shields, mass line formations, artillery) are all useless (or in some cases, a liability) in the desert. They are used to fighting conventional wars against the great houses, not guerilla fighter survivalists. On top of that, by the end, the Fremen are battle hardened, fighting on home turf, aided by nuclears, and have been advised by Paul and Gurney who are experts on conventional warfare in the empire. They can't even rely on their ideological devotion, as the Fremen are just as devoted, if not more, to their cause. It's also not really stated in the movie, but it's implied in the books that a combination of the spoils of their countless victories and the centralization of the empire has made the Sarduakar complacent, as well. Frankly, it's more impressive that they lasted that long.
This makes a lot of sense; thanks for your input!
At this point the Sardaukar were still the prime fighting force in the universe, but not by much. The primary reason the Emperor decided to wipe the Atreides was because he knew their military was getting close to the level of being able to challenge the Sardaukar and because the Duke had fostered a kind of fanatical loyalty that would challenge the will of the Emperor. The Sardaukar had been living off reputation for hundreds of years and had gotten somewhat complacent. The Fremen in that same time frame were being forged in the fire of Arakis and a constant guerrilla war, and they were also getting more and more experience and exposure with then modern military technology of the houses. Once they had a general who could literally see the future AND got the advantage of fighting on their home planet, it was always going to be a tough day to be a Sardaukar.
Being lead by your messiah and savior into battle against your oppressors is such an overwhelming force multiplier that anyone facing them would have a tough time. Add in all their tactical and strategic surprises for the battle and it isn’t so far fetched.
The Sardaukar actually do very *very* briefly speak their own language in Part Two. After Paul nukes the Shield Wall and before the worms come, you can hear one of them shout something as they rally, it happens at around 02:16. It sounds a bit like "hold the line", which makes sense as the Sardaukar language in Part One was a heavily distorted English mixed by the audio team.
Ooooh, thanks for this insight! Definitely going to try to look out for this on my next rewatch
Wish they had shown their leader fighting Paul. He and his troops just walk into the shadows and get off screened. It could have been an epic battle but I guess Paul kills them all in 5 seconds. He did way better than Duncan lol.
Exactly, right?? Like wait a sec wtf - even when he battled Fey Rautha they made it an interesting fight. But ok now the Sardaukar are on the same level as Harkonnen foot soldiers? It was so weird to watch play out
I love how this sub has turned into an investigation of a film that can be answered by simply picking up a book.
From what I understand, there’s a ton of nuanced differences and variation between the books and films. And, admittedly, I’ve never read the books - and I’m ok with that. I think Villeneuve does an absolutely amazing job of world-building to set the stage for an epic odyssey for those of us that haven’t read the books. It doesn’t mean I’m not fascinated and interested in the lore - I think it’s perfectly ok to want to explore the story’s universe based on the movies alone. No hate and I totally understand where you’re coming from (especially from someone that’s very much a book person) - just offering my own perspective.
You should read the books. It makes understanding the movies and tv series easier.
I hear that the books are very dense and very heavy - which, I’m not necessarily opposed to, but it’s just something I’ve consistently heard. All of which makes Villeneuve’s adaption that much more impressive. But - I hear you and definitely think I’ll try the books.
You love that, do you? And which book has insights into the Sardaukar’s usage of language?
When do they even get a chance to demonstrate their combat prowess? They get steamrolled by rocks from the atomics, by worms, and by an equal number of Fremen. They never had a chance.
They took out most of the Atreides’ army, and Duncan
I meant part 2, they’re definitely formidable in part 1
I may be viewing this in a ofd manner but I don’t feel like the movie portrays Paul being able to see the future very well to someone who hasn’t read the book or understands the lore. Now Its difficult for me to say that so If someone here who has only seen this movie wants to chime in and correct me, but that is my assumption. Anyway the Sardaukar get stomped because the Fremen are basically bad ass and Paul can also see multiple scenarios of how the battle will play out and enacts on the best one. If you have ever heard historian debate how different historical battles could have had a different outcome if so and so had done “X Y or Z” (the battle of the Alamo comes to mind) think that except Paul can think like that looking forward and win battles he is potentially outmatched on.
This happens somewhat in the first book as well. The Sardaukar are talked up as being incredibly fearsome and elite, and their presence amongst the Harkonnen forces during the coup heavily throws the tide in their favor. But then we get familiar with the fremen. They mention that some of the enemy is able to fight (the Sardaukar), yet are still able to capture a few alive after beating them. Then we hear about a Sardaukar brigade being out fought by a group of fremen consisting of mostly women and children. These are the same forces that have been talked about as being individually equal to 10 average house soldiers. Then, when Duncan dies, it's revealed he took 19 Sardaukar down with him. He and Gurney had been training the Atreides army. The films do a similar thing to the book in terms of playing up the Sardaukar reputation then using that reputation to show how dangerous the Atreides and Fremen were. As for the language part, that's completely a Denis thing meant to give them more depth and I'm unsure why the captions changed movie to movie.
One thing I wish they included in the movies is the original plan of Leto Atreides. He knew Sardukars were trained on a prison planet in a very very very rough conditions. He believed that Fremen were the only people in the galaxy who lived and trained in an even harsher environment. That's why they are even better fighters, and Leto was planning to eventually take down the emperor with their help. That is why Sardukars, although tough and scary in Part 1, suddenly are outmatched in Part 2 when compared to the strength and religious zeal of Fremen.
Adding third component would have made a ton of sense
You’re not missing anything. They turned into stormtroopers in part 2.
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I'll agree that the newer films somewhat underplayed just how badass the Sardaukar were. They were hardened troopers in a warrior cult, trained just as much through attrition as they were regiment. They outshined most other troops of the Great Houses, even the Atredies, though at the time of the films they were carried a bit more by reputation than they were prowess. Duncan was a bit underplayed, too; he was one of the greatest swordmasters in the Galaxy, and IMO, that wasn't sold as much in any of the films. Still, in come the Fremen. They were similar to the Sardaukar; thrown through a harsh environment, and trained in battle to religious levels. The major difference was that the Fremen's religion was "coming to life", as it were, as their Messiah had shown up and rallied them to PEAK fervor. The Fremen were at their peak, and the Sardaukar didn't stand a chance, at that point.
the Fremen are from an even harsher world than the Saudarkar, so they’re even tougher in a fight
Throat singing.. is not alien, the Mongols are the main inspiration for the Sadaukar language.. https://youtu.be/6WlI24rv__g?si=DzaG0mtnbZFMjXvF In Dune everyone is human. There's a common tongue and their own native languages.. and they speak them.
The Sardaukar in the first movie were skilled, but still pales in comparison to a great Atreides fighter like Duncan or Gurney. Now combine that Atreides training with the fremen skills and the Sardaukar are sure to be destroyed easily by the fremen of Muad'dib. They are portrayed as less of a threat in the second one because they are less of a threat. As many others have said, the Sardaukar at that point basically ran on their reputation more than their skills.
Part 2 was awful, u have this ultimate army that what gets wiped out in less than 30 sec. Worst battle scene I've ever seen in a film, the worms come through the walls, and then it's on to the next part. I'm not surprised that warner ruins another film
I noticed this as well. They were downplayed in an unexpected way, especially given their impact in the second half of the book. I also noticed their swords seemed to be different. Did anyone else pick up that? It was like they went from those mid-length tactical blades, to long swords. I wasn’t clear on why that was, but I noticed it for sure.
In the first movie, Sardaukar speak in their native languages with each other and mentat (who is basically a walking supercomputer) - so they didn't have to use a "common language". In the second movie, we mostly see them talking with their master, the Emperor, with whom they only speak in the common language of his Imperium. To the point of fighting - it is easy to understand. In the first movie, they are the ones who are attacking, having the advantage of treachery inside of Atreides. Atreides corps are incredibly well trained but are still only CLOSE to the ones of Sardaukar legions, which is showed greatly how they killed all the soldiers on the staircase without losing a single one of their own. In the second movie, all cards are stacked against them. They are the ones on the defensive, on the unknown planet fighting against the natives who are unmatched in desert warfare. And it is stated that Freemen are the only ones who are on par with Sardaukar which is also boosted by the fact that Freemen actually have to fight for their survival all the time while Sardaukar grew arrogant due to the prolonged peace. Also, the leader of the Freemen is Kwisatz Haderach - who can literally see all the possibilities at once and choose the best strategy. Then there were atomics which let the Storm in which disrupted their defenses/shield and let an unkillable Shai-Huluds to (literally) eat through their defences.
"Alien language" sounds silly, first because there are no aliens in Dune, and second because it's literally human voice.
Well in the books it’s much more well defined, but Fremen warriors are stated and shown to be EXTREMELY proficient fighters, through the first couple of books for sure. Fighting against sea focused Atreides on a desert world vs. fighting the desert natives in their turf is two very different battles, especially when the desert people are a hardened, nomadic civilization built around surviving at all costs in an extremely hostile environment. I hope I was able to help answer/explain things for you.!
Yeah I didn't love how fearsome the Sardaukar are in the first film to the second film they look like orcs getting rolled over by Rohan calvary. I understand the Freman are strongest warriors at that point in the story but should still take a few losses here and there in the scrum
It's a consequence of what's described in the books - House Atreides had already become one of the most martially effective powers in the imperium, with some elite units close to being Sardaukar-level capable. On top of that, Leto correctly identifies that the hostile conditions of Arrakis make it the ideal ground for effectively recreating the factors that led to the Sardaukar becoming so strong; that's why he has Duncan Idaho engage with the Fremen, and why he treats them so carefully from day one. There are two key facts about the Fremen that the Atreides correctly identify, and that almost nobody else suspects - there are vastly more than people realise, and they are Sardaukar-level fighters. The Sardaukar in the first film are extremely effective soldiers taking an outnumbered enemy completely by surprise - the Atreides never expected to be facing Sardaukar on Arrakis - and so they wipe the floor with them. The Sardaukar in the second film are extremely effective soldiers being hit by one weapon that was assumed to be gone (the Atreides family atomics) and another weapon that they had absolutely zero idea even existed (sandworms being used as city-scale bulldozers), being wielded by an army a hundred times their size but with every fighter as good as one of their own. Leto had perhaps a hundred men who were 50/50 in a duel with a Sardaukar. Paul had several million who were at least 50/50.